A question on Gay marriage.

1. 82

   Tom Cornettposted 13 years ago

   If....miraculously....your soul mate...the love of your life became the same sex as you.  Would you adapt?  Would you divorce?

   replyreport
   1. 60

      RevRainbowladyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I am bisexual, so the gender of the person I am in love with is of no importance to me. I would most certainly not have a problem if the love of my life even chose to "change genders". It's not the gender you love, it's the soul inside.

      replyreport
      1. 82

         Tom Cornettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         "It's not the gender you love, it's the soul inside"
         
         I think you may have answered my question...thank you. 

         replyreport
         1. 63

            Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            One of the definitions of "romantic love" (as opposed to other types of love) includes physical attraction.  Ordinarily, people marry because of "romantic love".  I think we love all kinds of people immensely, but, to me, if there isn't romantic attraction it isn't "romantic" love.    It may not be the gender that we love, but for a whole lot of people, it's the gender that involves who we can feel attraction to.
            
            I know there are people who will bring up the old, "People didn't used to marry for love," and "A lot of people don't marry for love," but - call me (what else?) "a romantic", but I think marriage should be about romantic love.  To me, anything less isn't marriage.  It's a business deal or a close friendship or even having an intimate, physical, relationship with someone for reasons other than romance.   I don't know...   I just think marriage should be more (not matter what the orientation of the people involved is).   

            replyreport
   2. 84

      Freeway Flyerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I am fine with things like gay marriage and homosexuality in general. But since I am naturally attracted to the opposite sex, a magical gender change would make a difference. Sex is part of a romantic relationship, so the "love of my life' would probably be transformed into a very good friend.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         That someone could remain friends after some thing like this is one heck of a testament of character. I don't know if I could do it.

         replyreport
   3. 60

      Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      If the love of my life became a man for what ever reason, I would have to end the relationshipphysical relationahip. I don't know if I would be strong enough to remain friends and that's just being honest with me.. I firmly believe that a person is born either homosexual or straight. If my mate was honest enough with herself to change genders,I would support her but could not continue the relationship as I was born straight. For me to remain in this relationship would be the same as a homosexual remaining in a straight relationship simply for public acceptence. Each person must first be true to themselves before they have any hjope of being true to the world.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Excuse my typing, I am mildly lysdexic, pun intended. That was physical relationship

         replyreport
         1. 61

            Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Do you also have a peech impedisment?

            replyreport
            1. 60

               Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               No but I think I type with a spanish accent

               replyreport
2. 81

   Aficionadaposted 13 years ago

   Are you asking if we would divorce a current spouse to be free to be with the soul mate?  Or, if our current spouse (who actually is our soul mate) were transformed into our own sex, would we divorce them?  Which? 
   
   In either case, I don't know how to answer "what if's?"  They are interesting as speculation, but the actual people I know are even more interesting than the speculations!

   replyreport
   1. 82

      Tom Cornettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes...a current spouse.

      replyreport
      1. 81

         Aficionadaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         But that's the situation in both of the questions.  Sorry if I wasn't clear.
         
         First situation:  you are married to A; you meet B, a soul mate, who is the same sex as you, and so you divorce A. Your question was "Would you divorce A?
         
         Second situation:  you are married to C, not the same sex as yourself; C not only is your spouse but is also your soul mate; miraculously, C undergoes a miraculous sex change and is now still your soul mate and is now also the same sex as you.  Your question:  Would you divorce C?
         
         It seems to me in both questions that the "you" in the question is facing what might or might not be a moral dilemma to them, but the moral dilemma is a different one in the two cases.

         replyreport
         1. 82

            Tom Cornettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You are right...it is a moral dilemma....yet...would love change at all?
            I would think that most people would still love their mate.
            
            The bottom line....is our morality greater than our love?

            replyreport
            1. 60

               Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               It only becomes a moral issue if you consider homosexuality to be immoral. Morals have nothing to do with the way you were born.
               
               Is our love greater than our sense of betrayal?  If you spent 2 or 5 or 10 years with a person and they waited that long to be honest with you about their sexuality, you can bet it took them that long to be honest with themselves about their sexuality.
               
               Unless you are bisexual ,and this would hardly have been a secret, which probably gave you a clue about the other person, and you were just waiting for them to wake the hell up, you are not going to be able to remain in the relationship.

               replyreport
3. 81

   Aficionadaposted 13 years ago

   Actually, I've had another thought, totally aside from whether this would be a moral dilemma or not.
   
   I have a friend whose step-daughter is a lesbian.  In one of their conversations, the SD said, "I could no more kiss a man than you could kiss a woman."  My friend related this to me as a testimony to the strength of the SD's feelings.
   
   So, here's my thought about your original question, Tom.  I can't say for sure what I would do in either of the cases I spun from your question - because I have learned that many, many of my predictions about myself turn out to be just wrong.
   
   But, if my friend's SD was telling the truth, then my desire to "adapt" to a same-sex orientation (if it were my desire to adapt) would not be effective anyway - that is, if our sexuality is truly hard-wired.  According to the SD, I couldn't become same-sex oriented just by wishing to be, if I did so wish.
   
   Is that what you were getting at in your question?  That it's similar to asking a homosexual or lesbian to "adapt" if their soul-mate were of the opposite sex?

   replyreport
   1. 82

      Tom Cornettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly....would or could we adapt?  Sex would be turned upside down but love would remain....at least I believe it would.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Love may remain but sex is too important a part of a healthy relationship to do with out. Eventually each party is going to have to be who they are, if either are to be happy. Hopefully they could build on the rest of the relationship and remain friends and soulmates. That of course supposes they were getting along right up until the addadictome proceedure.

         replyreport
4. 81

   Aficionadaposted 13 years ago

   And then, there's the whole "soul-mate" theory or myth or fable or idea(l).    Enough questions to destroy another night's sleep. 
   
   Here, then, the question is whether the Soul-Mate induces love so strong that it transcends sexuality.  I'm thinking again of the homosexuals that I know or know of or have heard of who have entered heterosexual marriages because of "love."  I know of one anyway that didn't last long, and I wonder about the others.
   
   Since I don't actually believe in the soul-mate concept, I'm afraid I have to bow out of this one. 

   replyreport
   1. 82

      Tom Cornettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Soul mate is simply a term I used for a lasting relationship of love.
      
      I guess I am trying to dig up an impossible answer to an impossible question. 
      
      I just can't imagine a relationship with any person other than my wife.  If that is how someone feels...how could it be wrong?

      replyreport
   2. 60

      Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I find this conversation to be interesting on a totally different level all of the sudden. Everyone on here trying to answer the question could you still love your spouse if they announced they were gay and changed genders. Since the Christians feel that God hates homosexuals, shouldn't it come naturally to those created in his image that worship him? No disrespect to christians here, I am simply wondering if any have responded.

      replyreport
      1. 89

         RedElfposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Not all Christians feel homosexuality is immoral. The United Church of Canada (one of the major denominations), supports gay marriage, and ordains homosexual ministers. Many are "affirming" congregations who support, encourage, and welcome GLBT members. Last I heard, those who attend the United Church believe themselves to be Christians

         replyreport
   3. 60

      Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      If God's love can't handle homosexuality, How could a mere mortals?

      replyreport
5. 79

   Mighty Momposted 13 years ago

   This is a very interesting question, Tom.
   What is coming to mind for me is this: As we became close I would surely become aware of his feeling trapped/unhappy as a man. So the decision to change sex should not come as a surprise. It would be something I would support him through.
   But, having changed genders, it's entirely possible that he (now she) would want to explore his (now her) sexuality as a woman, and would want to be with a man, not with me.
   
   On the most practical level -- and being the smartass I so often am -- the main issue for me would be if he became a woman he'd absolutely HAVE to shave his beard!
   MM

   replyreport
6. 63

   Lisa HWposted 13 years ago

   I don't think it has anything to do with any "moral dilemma" at all.  I see it more as a heartbreaking challenge.  If I married a man it's because I wanted to marry a man.  If he turned into a woman that's not what I signed on for, because I'm a heterosexual woman.  Since I, personally, don't happen to want to married to my best girlfriend, no matter how much we care about each other; I'd have to divorce. 
   
   I may want to arrange to keep living with this "friend" on different terms, or maybe we'd both decide to go "do our own thing" romance-wise but remain close friends.  I wouldn't want some half-baked, switcheroo, situation between another woman and me, and then call it "marriage".  That's not what I signed on for when I signed on to marry a guy.   I wouldn't see it any differently, either, if I were a gay woman married to a gay woman who decided to turn into a man tomorrow.   So, for me, whether I lived with the person as singles or not would be one thing to work out.  I wouldn't stay married to him, though.
   
   What I suspect may happen, though, is what often happens when someone changes in any other way, or when someone cheats:  The spouse thinks, this isn't the person I thought he was.  That can put fractures even into a "properly matched" relationship (straight or otherwise).  I have a feeling the soul-mate thing may be fractured too.  Besides, much of the time people aren't "soul mates" anyway.

   replyreport
   1. 60

      Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Just to play the devil's advocate, wouldn't the desire to change genders be a little obvious before the announcement. I f you are married to a person that wants to, and needs to change sexes, and you didn't see it coming, you really need to work on your observatioal skills.

      replyreport
7. 60

   fucsiaposted 13 years ago

   I am not married, but my answer would be "no". The love and passion for me not having sex.

   replyreport
8. 81

   Aficionadaposted 13 years ago

   There's more to the moral issues than that. Believe it or not, there are some people who still think that divorcing one person in order to be with another person is a moral issue.  Divorce on the whole, as a moral issue, is not as big a deal as it was fifty years ago.  But leaving a marriage for another person - some people do still see that as being wrong.
   
   And, related but not identical:  what about the moral issue of abandoning someone you have given your life to?  Here, I'm not focusing on the legal (divorce) aspect; but on the practice of just giving up on one relationship because something "better" comes along.
   
   Then, there is situation "C" (described above).  Let's say you are married to C, your soul mate; however it happens, C becomes the same sex as you.  IF you divorce, you might be freeing up C so s/he can pursue a desired heterosexual relationship (if that's what they want).  OR if you love C so much that you don't want to divorce, would you possibly be standing in the way of his/her true happiness with someone else? Wouldn’t it be a moral issue if you make your decision about divorce solely based on your own wants and desires, not taking into account what C wants?
   
   These are some of the issues or moral dilemmas I was referring to above.
   
   Lisa's term "heartbreaking challenge" is excellent, and it covers a lot more territory than the moral dilemma aspect does.  I do think though that there are people who, faced with this situation, would ask What is the right thing to do?  That's when it becomes a "moral issue."

   replyreport
   1. 60

      Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Aficionada, you asked "related but not identical:  what about the moral issue of abandoning someone you have given your life to?" What if staying with that person means you must abandon yourself?
      
      "leaving a marriage for another person - some people do still see that as being wrong"
      
      Do these same people see that staying in a marriage just to spend your life being someone your not is right? If a relationship is based on a lie, should you preserve it at all costs?

      replyreport
9. 81

   Aficionadaposted 13 years ago

   You rang?  Christian here.
   
   I guess it surprises me that people don't notice in the media the reports of Christian churches that ordain homosexuals as ministers.  Does that not say something about how Christians feel?
   
   The fact is, there's a great deal of turmoil within the Christian faith over questions related to homosexuality, with an enormous range of beliefs about what is acceptable and what is not - and that is one reason why it's such a hot topic. 
   
   Don't ever assume that the loudest voice is the only one.
   
   Then, there's your statement "Since the Christians feel that God hates homosexuals" - well, even the most rabid ones usually word it differently.  Most of them will say that God hates the practice of it.  Even there, you can't lump all Christians together in terms of what "they" [we] believe.  But here we start getting into questions that belong in the religious forum, so maybe that's the best place to discuss it.

   replyreport
   1. 60

      Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      More and more christians are beginning to see that a gay christian is still a christian. not sure the difficulty here but.
      
      I still retain some hope that the church can get past this and devote it's entire time arguing with us atheists. Leave the people who agree with you alone and join a parade against atheists. According to your bible, we deserve the persecution, not the homosexuals. I am not assuming you are achristian as it is not my right to choose who gets eternal salvation.

      replyreport
10. 79

    Mighty Momposted 13 years ago

    I'm not an expert, mind you, but I believe that those Christian denominations that denounce homosexuality have a biblical basis for doing so. They (meaning the homosexuals, not the Christians -- although we all know there is some overlap there ) are an "abomination against God" and their sexual acts are "sins."
    If they (the homosexuals) want to be saved and accepted by the Christians they need to reject their homosexuality and be heterosexual. Or, if they happen to be Catholics, they could become priests....
    
    Atheists, on the other hand, are actually very attractive to Christians. As are any snd all heathens and natives of undeveloped lands. Why? Because you represent a challenge! You can still be converted and saved! Your sinful state is not entirely your own fault. You have simply not been shown the light.

    replyreport
    1. 60

       Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       //They (meaning the homosexuals, not the Christians -- although we all know there is some overlap there ) are an "abomination against God" and their sexual acts are "sins."//
       
       It is an abomination to God would be the correct terminology and excuse my buzz that made me point that out.
       
       This biblical basis also contains in the same set of verses that eating shellfish, rabbits, and wearing more than one fabric is an abomination to God.
       
       I have never seen one Westboro Baptist Church member holding a sign outside of Red Lobster. I have never heard one preacher mention that anyoine who lived thru the 70's is going to hell based on polyester.
       
       The biblical basis for denouncing homosexuality is based on a misunderstanding of the meaning of words during the numerous translations. I am no expert either but I do know one, lol. I have a friend on myspace that teaches at a religious college and has studied the oldest translations available. No records exist of the original bible. My friend has an interesting situation in that he is gay and must remain in the closet in order to retain his job.
       
       I find it interesting that you would state that atheists are attractive to christians. I live in the bible brlt and I can tell you I have been considered a lot of things but attractive to a christian is not usually one of them.
       
       Nationwide atheists are the least favorable choice for a mate that a parent or family member could accept. As an atheist I am more despised than the muslims and homosexuals are.
       
       Now I have meet a new species of humans lately that do claim to be christian, human, and able to accept homosexual rights as human rights. This is direct evidence that proves the theory of evolution. Even christians can evolve, can I get an Amen?

       replyreport
11. 81

    Aficionadaposted 13 years ago

    SP and MM - I would love to continue this, but it is way late here.  Could we maybe table the discussion?
    
    One thing that helps, I believe, is to remember that no Christian (even the RC Pope) can speak for "all" Christians.  Yes, there are biblical reasons for what those who denounce homosexuality believe.  There is also a biblical basis for embracing, loving, and accepting.  The Bible has depths that can't be explored in just one forum post, so I'll stop before I start, and I'll plan to discuss my beliefs or understanding another time.
    
    Good night, all.
    
    [PS - There were other questions I've not answered too, but I'll try to reply to them when I'm actually awake.]

    replyreport
    1. 60

       Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Good point Af, There are as you said, many reasons  and instructions for loving you fellow man. Everyone of these goes out the window as soon as someone thinks they have figured out a reason to hate said person. This always trumps the good that the bible preaches, doesn't it?

       replyreport
12. 79

    Mighty Momposted 13 years ago

    Abomination TO God is probably preferred, but
    Abomination AGAINST God entries also appear on Google results Page1.
    www.dailymorality.com/homosexuality.html
    and the entry below that is about "Crazy Donnie Swaggart Goes Off On All the Abominations Against God."
    
    Regardless (or, as you are probably more used to hearing it down in your neck of the woods, "irregardless"), that is a semantics issue and not worth debating.
    
    I do wonder, however, if a soul mate who decides to change gender would be considered an abomination to (or against) God.
    I'm going to bed and will undoubtedly have dreams about all of this:-)
    Night, all! MM

    replyreport
13. 90

    Polly Cposted 13 years ago

    Well, maybe I would still love the person, but it would be a different type of love.  Not romantic, but more like the love you feel for a close friend or family member. However, I'm not sure I would want to continue living with them, it would make for too many feelings of awkwardness for me. And if I did, it would only be as a friend.

    replyreport
14. 60

    Joe Badtoeposted 13 years ago

    just get drunk, put a blindfold on and the dilemma is easier to ignore! In the morning you can share the silence embrace the awkwardness and then laugh about it all.
    
    That is until the shame and guilt sets in then you just get drunk again and go back to the blindfolds.
    
    If thatdoesn't work why not try a genital transplant and both become shemales. That solves everything.
    
    Me? I've got my own problems wondering why I didn't get that job as a marriage guidance counsellor.

    replyreport
    1. 60

       Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       //just get drunk, put a blindfold on and the dilemma is easier to ignore! In the morning you can share the silence embrace the awkwardness and then laugh about it all.//
       
       Sure, that's how I ended up married in the first place. Heck of a note to come off of a 3 day drunk and discover your married. I believe in gay rights but if my wife had turned out to be a dude 2 things would have happened. 1, I would have sworn off booze for ever and joined a 12 step program. Not sure which one and I suppose that would depend on how well I enjoyed the wedding night. 2, I don't know what 2 would be but I am sure it would Involve long periods of sobbing relentlessly.

       replyreport
15. 91

    habeeposted 13 years ago

    I guess we'd just have to be best friends!

    replyreport