And should the POTUS be supporting it?
I'm really torn with this. I do think just about everyone deserves a second chance, but Vick's crime was horrendous. It's hard for me to believe that his views on animal cruelty have really changed. Is he sorry he did it - or is he just sorry he got caught? Your thoughts?
Should murderers be given second chances?
Sometimes they get them.
To be perfectly honest, I think what Michael Vick did was probably one of the worst crimes anyone can commit. Therefore, I didn't feel the least bit sorry for him going to jail, as he truly deserved it. Nor did I feel sorry for him when he lost his fortune and went financially into debt.
However, I am a firm believer that everyone, regardless of their crime, deserves a second chance. As long as they know what they did was wrong, and keep their noses clean, then I don't see why Vick shouldn't be granted the same chance to redeem himself.
Having said all that though, athletes by definition are selfish whiny little babies that demand everything and anything that comes their way. Therefore, I don't think Vick actually feels sorry for what he did per say, but rather he's more sorry that he actually got caught if that makes any sense. If he was truly sorry, then why hasn't he made a press conference publicly admitting that what he did was wrong and apologize for it? Why did he lie to Roger Goodell when questioned about it? Seriously, Vick is about as sorry as Kobe Bryant and Ben Rothlesberger are about raping little girls. Ben and Kobe are not sorry in the least for what they did, as either one of them have yet to admit what they did was anything more than consensual sex to those poor little girls. However, they did apologize to their fans and team mates when bad publicity and lawsuits came their way. Hell, Ben and Kobe didn't lose anything for raping those girls other than a small public slap on the wrist. Why? Because America loves winners. It's the same thing for Vick. He has yet to publicly admit what he did was wrong and apologize for it, so this leaves me to believe he's about as sorry as he has to be to get on back to his professional career in the nfl.
The reality is if Vick takes the Eagles to a superbowl and wins, then Vick will go from criminal to hero over night. Don't believe me? Look at what happened to Ray Lewis, when he was on trial for murder. However, it's funny on how society never brings that up, since he got his super bowl ring. hmm..i wonder why that is? (sarcastically says)
Then we get to Kobe and Ben, who raped girls, but everyone loves them now. Why? Because they're winning, and america loves winners. That's the reality of the situation. You don't have to like the system, but that's just how it works. sorry to say that, but it's the damn truth.
Do a Google search on dogfighting, see just how brutal and cruel of a "sport" it is, and I think you can answer the question.....
It's terrible - I witnessed it firsthand once on my way home form work. One of the worst aspects of dog fighting is the "training process." Smaller, weaker animals like kittens are used to increase a young dog's confidence. As the fighting dog gets bigger, stronger, and more confident, small and medium sized dogs are used as sparring partners.
Dogs that lose are usually killed in inhumane ways - drowned, hanged, electrocuted, or bashed in the head with a baseball bat.
The actual fighting is horrendous, but some of these other aspects of the "sport" are just as bad, if not worse.
How can someone so callous toward animals suddenly develop empathy and compassion??
One of my sons-in-law was convicted of a drug crime, and it took him forever to get a job because of his record. His crime was nothing compared to Vick's. Yet Vick walks out of prison and into the NFL. Something just doesn't seem right about this.
Vick should NEVER be allowed to have another animal!
If Vick was not a famous football player he would not have gotten the second chance so quickly. That's the big difference. We, meaning as a society, place a high value on "celebrity". I think our value system is part of the problem.
I don't know that "we" do. I think it is more of the media that does, making it seem as though "we" do. Then those that are in the marketing of these NFL teams think that "we" all want to see it happen so they do it because it gets the media exposure. In short, if you get rid of the media, America is still a GREAT place!
Yes, "we" do, if you consider children and teens part of "we." If you ask 100 kids who their heroes are, I assure you that around 90-95 of them will name either a sports star, a movie star, or a musical performer. The reason I know this is because I've asked this very question to over 1,000 teens. For a short time after 9/11, the answers changed somewhat to firefighters and other rescue workers, but that didn't last long.
"How can someone so callous toward animals suddenly develop empathy and compassion??"
By being humbled. By standing before someone who has complete power over you. By being forced to sit quietly and think about how you forfieted all of you personal power to this person by your own actions. So many in the "system" have nothing to loose. Vick had lots to loose, therefore he was more apt to listen and learn. Time will tell of course. Most of us don't really know Vick. We may feel like we know him because we see him on TV.
If you mean second chance as can he own a dog again, probably not. If you mean playing in the NFL, yes. I think we have to be carefull with crime and punishment. You are tried, convicted and punished. You complete that and all your rights should be restored. Of course there are always going to be exceptions. For example child molestors, habitual violent offenders, habitual DUI offenders, etc. Even then I think life long restrictions should be extremely targeted. For example if Vick is allowed to own a dog, it can't be an aggressive breed or a large breed. Finally restitution should be manditory for criminal damages when applicable. As it stands now, the state gets a fine.
No second chance. Some people mess up because they're young and/or stupid, but the stuff they do isn't necessarily a sign that they're capable of cruelty. Individuals who are capable of cruelty are a whole-nother-breed and don't deserve second chances.
Just within the last day or so in Massachusetts, a 60-year-old police officer was killed by a moron who had a violent past, and was supposed to have a life sentence (he had "shot at" a security guard in the past); and who was let out by the parole board because he apparently behaved well in prison. Someone said, "The parole board didn't judge based on what he did. They judged based on how he behaved in prison." When it comes to violence, people have start getting a clue and judging based on what people have shown themselves to be capable of.
Obama doesn't seem to be big on setting standards of behavior for anyone and expecting them to be held to them. He's more the passive, "Hey - let things go" kind of guy, isn't he...
Of course this is only my personal opinion, but I don't think everyone deserves a second chance. Sure, we all make mistakes and everyone can be foolish at times, but there are some things that are just so fundamentally wrong that they can't be forgiven and one can only wonder what sort of person could actually be a party to them.
Vick has served his time and what's done is done. But I don't think he's changed. I think he's making a very public display to make everyone believe he's changed because he's got a gigantic red "AA" for Animal Abuser painted on his chest. So what else can he do but make it look like he's repented. But deep down inside himself, he's still the same vile individual.
I'm sure he's very sorry he got caught, but that's really all he's very sorry for.
Yes. Everyone deserves a second chance including Vick, since he paid for the crime. The Philadelphia Eagles football organization definitely saw it that way. I do not know why people keep talking about it, it is not like he did not get punished. He served the time and now it is over. He had moved on with his life.
He served his time, and he should be allowed to go off somewhere and his life in private. Someone with such questionable mental health, lack of character, and lack of conscience shouldn't get his old job back and shouldn't expect too much by way of getting any particularly appealing jobs. Heck - these days one "employment thing" is that people aren't hired for some jobs because they've been laid off too long and end up with damaged credit. He also shouldn't expect the rest of the world to just "let bygones be bygones" and pretend he's a normal human being now that he's served time. Serving time is punishment. It isn't absolution.
I was really against Michael Vick for a long time. I'm an animal LOVER. I think he should have been given a stiffer sentence. But he didn't, and he did his time, and now he travels the country doing court ordered community service and other United Way projects. He has done his time. So who are we to fault him?
He is an extremely talented individual. I'm not one for "kicking an old dog when their down," not too many of us are. Americans are noted lovers of a good underdog, especially one that has since been reformed and all.
So yeah- Michael Vick deserved a second chance, even one by me. And, I thought he should have been flogged for what he done.
He committed a terrible crime. But he has paid for it as well. Its time for us to put it behind us and move on.
Kinda wondering if all this goodwill towards Vick would be extended to child molesters or rapists as well.....
It's extended to a lot of evil, cruel, creeps. There's something in a lot of people's nature that makes them uncomfortable about having standards when it comes to behavior at all. I don't know... Maybe people don't want to have to sort out the differences between things like violence, cruelty, and abuse and other bad behavior that stems from something other than lack of conscience. Either that, or a lot of people just don't want to "think about negative stuff" for too long. They'd rather move on and think of more pleasant things.
I am from a different culture before moving here in the US, in the place where I came from they have cockfighting, dog fighting, all animals that they can bet on..they even eat dog meat etc. Personally, I don't agree with what he did and what the people are doing in some countries.
But here in the US of course it is illegal. He was punished already. Let this be his last chance, let us give him another chance.
I like that you bring a different cultural prespective to this and I understand completely what you are saying. I agree on the point that he has been punished and served his time. The fact that Vick is from this culture where these fights are illegal speaks to his character. He was a hot shot football player on the fast track to success, dog fighting is not a sport in which he had any need to participate, it was his choice to do this thing.
Also, I'm curious, is the cockfighting and dog fighting that goes on where you are from legal or just accepted by a society that turns a blind eye to these cruel sports?
Cockfighting is legal in some parts of the US - LA, NM, and OK.
Cockfighting is legal, dog fighting is not as widely practiced, but some people are doing it. Usually it is the big politicians who owns the cockfighting arena and they bet millions on it, they become richer collecting the money from small bettors.
it is part of the culture, even children bet on two spiders fighting and killing each other, they put it on sticks.
I'm on the fence with Vick. First, yes I think some criminals deserve a second chance, not those that commit violent crimes against other individuals, such as rapits,murderers, or child molestors.
If Vick's dog fighting ring were fighting Poodles I'd be screaming no second chance for him. But he happend to be fighting a breed of dog that I think should be wiped off the face of the Earth, Pit Bulls. That may sound cruel and I'm sure there are cases of gentle Pit Bulls, but I have never seen one. They're vicious creatures and I have no simpathy for them at all.
Just to be fair, I have no simpathy for rattle snakes or scorpions, or mosquitos either so they can be wiped off the face of the Earth too....
Rich, I've known several Pit Bulls that were great dogs - gentle with kids and other dogs and animals. The dogs are the victims here. They're bred and trained to be aggressive.
With most breeds, responsible breeders "breed out" bad temperaments. With fight breeders, the opposite happens. The most aggressive dogs are the ones used for breeding. It's not the dogs' fault.
As habee already pointed out, pit bulls can be great dogs. One of the gentlest dogs I have ever know is a pit bull. It really depends on the trainer. I guarantee with the proper (rather improper) training, you can make any dog into a vicious monster. Even poodles. In fact I think most poodles and small-breed dogs I've seen were very aggressive and mean. The only difference is they can't do much.
Should we add humans to that list too? I can think of a few things we've done worse than pit bulls, snakes, scorpions and mosquitoes combined. Plus, snakes, scorpions and mosquitoes create a balance in the ecosystem, taking them out might just create another problem.
I"m a bit worried about this "deserving a second chance" nonsense.
Listen - there was an agreement between the law enforcers and the guilty individual: do the crime pay the fine and time.
He did it.
He isn't getting "a second chance", he's simply "paid the fine" and is now going back to life.
He upheld his side of the contract, as has the law.
The only contract he had was with the NFL and his sponsors. Legally he served the time for his crime his "second chance" is in the nature of redemption with his fans and colleagues.
Would he be getting this favor with the fans if he were losing?
How would he be treated if he weren't a celebrity athlete?
That doesn't matter at all.
The Law states "if you do X, your punishment will be Y"
Vick DID X, and he served Y. He fulfilled his end of the deal.
There is no "second chance" there is only "life after the fact".
If I get a parking ticket, am I considered to have "a second chance at proving that I know how to park and how not to get in the way of Handicapped people"? -- No of course not.
Sure, it's not REALLY a contract: one can not negotiate with government (that's why I'm an Anarchist), but under the system today, this is how it works.
The man broke "the law" and he paid his punishment. There is no "second chance" there is only "how will people judge him".
An Anarchist that believes in rules That's a new one.
As I stated, his "second chance" is in the nature of redemption with the society he lives in which apparently he is receiving.
Compare his actions with the actions O.J. Simpson was accused of. O.J. was never convicted of a crime but has he been redeemed with society?
"how will people judge him" falls right in line with redemption so if you want to carry on with semantics go right ahead. Nobody is stating that the government or the legal system gives anyone a "second chance." Justice, and punishment for crimes, derive from We the People and is not absolute. Justice varies depending on your local society.
Just last night I heard on the news that a 70 year old man who shot and killed a 23 year old man because the younger man's dog pissed on the older man's award winning lawn, was only sentenced to 4 years probation... You see that. Probation for shooting a man and killing him. Was justice served. Not for the younger man's family. The judge seemed to think that the older man's past service record, along with documented reports the younger man was harassing the older man were enough to justify the shooting. In this case, did the judge give the older man a "second chance" or is 4 years probation enough justice to satisfy society?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa … s/national
Michael Vick has paid his debt to society. Now, as a society, we can shun him or give him a chance to rebuild his life. I think that says a lot about America. That's the point the President was trying to make, in my opinion; ex-cons have a very hard time assimilating back into society and finding employment, often leading them back into a life of crime. But of course, opponents of the President see this as his unabashed support for animal cruelty.
Mike arrives at game in limousine.
Dog rides in cage in back of truck.
Mike drinks Gatorade before game...feels great!
Dog fed gunpowder in raw hamburger to cause extreme pain and be more vicious.
Mike loses game....sad....but still gets paid.
Dog loses fight....shot in head.
I like football but I love dogs. Hopefully Michael Vick will use his wealth and influence to help erase animal cruelty. That...is far more important than a Super Bowl ring.
I agree with Evan on this one.
Vick paid his debt to society.
So did Martha Stewart -- whose crime is considered "white collar" and thus more what, genteel?
I don't hear people debating whether she should continue to be punished by society. What's the obsession with Vick's transgression?
I also agree with livewithrichard.
Just the other day there was an incident here in Sacramento of a horse and carriage horse being attacked viciously by a pitbull.
My husband witnessed a pitbull snap the neck of a mother cat-- with her nursing kittens right there.
Am I condoning dog fighting? No. I don't like cock fighting, either. In fact, I'm not a fan of boxing as a sport, either.
As long as Vick doesn't do it again, I think we should focus on his exciting professional redemption. And for the record, I think he should be able to have a dog for a family pet -- but NOT a pitbull!
Holy god. Mighty Mom agreed with me on something!
But to go further with the argument:
If you get a speeding ticket, there is no "second chance", there's only "living after the fact that you got a speeding ticket".
Yes yes yes, dogs died, lives were ruined. I hate Vick for encouraging this disgusting practice. But under the eyes of government there is only this one rule:
If you do X, your punishment will be Y
He did X, he received Y.
Now he will live his life.
I already know about sitting in church. I mean what would JC say about forgiveness! You said you liked to follow his example, didn't you?
As I said in my initial post, I'm torn about this issue. If he's actually sorry and will never engage in this kind of behavior again, then he should be forgiven. He's paid his debt, so I definitely think he shouldn't be punished any more. But should he be rewarded with fame and millions of $?
I did say that I try to follow Jesus' example, but if you recall, I admitted that I'm not always able to do so because of my human frailties and sinful nature.
What do you think about Vick, RD?
He has served his time. And something else you might not have considered. You know how I used to feel about little dogs. Until I actually had one, I never thought I could care for an animal as much as I do Ally.
Actually, I don't know if I like to feel this close to an animal knowing how short their lives are. But if nothing else, I have a greater respect for all pets and non-pet animal species too.
It could be that Vick might gain insight into why people seem to find his crime so atrocious. If so, his remorse over his criminal actions may be much worse than his punishment from the legal quarter. You never know.
RD, I know exactly what you mean about giving your heart to a dog. I've had lots of pooches that I thought I loved, but none of those can match the way I feel about the big boys I have now.
Honestly, it scares me sometimes!
I hope you're right about Vick. I really do.
As for your former feelings about little dogs, didn't you always think they were "sweet"?? LOL!!
I don't know why you people continue to debate this. As usual, a FoxNews guru has answered a difficult ethical dilemma with some good ol' folksy wisdom, and gosh darn common sense. Give your brains a rest, Fox will do the thinkin'.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101229/ap_ … ck_carlson
SURE. He has paid his dues. We all make mistakes and we have to learn from them. He has and he is a character for the NFL. We all do stuff we shouldn't do. Nobody is perfect. This is the reason Jesus died for us all, so we can be forgiven for our sins. Vick, we understand.
Stevennix has a good point with the reality of the system. We reward winners and put aside any crimes they may have done in the past. If Vick keeps winning his crime will be forgiven, ignored or what have you.
I think the bigger issue is how come our system even allows this kind of behaviour in the first place. Have harsher punishments and everyone would quickly obey the rule. Is that the best case scenario? No, the best case scenario would be people consciously recognizing what is and isn't acceptable without the need for punishment as a deterrent. I guess we're still working on that.
Walk in his shoes, if you did something wrong and went to jail, would you want someone to give you a job when your got out?
What is this nonsense of "paying our dues"? And what of this "making mistakes"?
That isn't what it is.
The laws are very clear: If you do X, you will receive the punishment of Y.
It's a one-sided, non-negotiable contract that is thrust upon us all by a majority-voted-in oligarch.
Vick did X, and he received Y.
Technically, he could do X for as long as he could afford Y. It's disgusting to say this, but that's really all that the law says.
"10 years in prison" basically just means "is doing X worth 10 years in prison"?
"$30,000 fine" just means "is doing X worth $30,000 to you?"
Wake up and realize what LAW actually is.
talking about laws yes
in the social realm it doesn't work that way - depends on where people put their values -- and in turn this affect future laws - values of the local officials - which in turn is affected by the dominant values of the society where the laws are made
Well then what about the Twinkie DEFENSE?
You know, the one that that Dan White tried to use as his excuse for offing SF Mayor Mosconi and Harvey Milk in 1978?
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