That Pesky Constitutional Thingie (14th Amendment)

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  1. Doug Hughes profile image60
    Doug Hughesposted 12 years ago

    The 14th Amendment

    Section 4. "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."

    The republicans are demanding the budget be balanced by cutting spending and without raising taxes on anyone (especially the rich). The legislative obstacle to the demand is that the GOP only controls the House, not the Senate, and of course, not the presidency. The federal government, meantime is spending faster than it receives revenue and the debt limit MUST br raised to continue to do the people's business. The GOP is threatening to throw the economy into a tailspin (great Depression, folks) by not acting.

    "That would be a financial disaster, not only for our country but for the worldwide economy. Remember, the American people on Election Day said, 'we want to cut spending and we want to create jobs.' And you can't create jobs if you default on the federal debt."

    That's a quote from John Boehner in a rare moment of sanity. Since then he has joined in economic blackmail.

    I like how Paul Krugman summarized the situation..

    "So what’s really going on is extortion pure and simple. As Mike Konczal of the Roosevelt Institute puts it, the G.O.P. has, in effect, come around with baseball bats and declared, “Nice economy you have here. A real shame if something happened to it.” … .html?_r=1

    Which brings us back to the 14th amendment. What the House is threatening is unconstitutional. The public debt must be paid. This probably hasn't escaped the notice of the president, who is a constitutional scholar. This week he set a deadline for Congress to resolve the issue, a week before the Treasury Dept says the US might default. Should the republicans refuse to negotiate, might the president instruct the treasury department that the constitution overrides partisan congressional politics and they are authorized and required to do what's necessary to avoid a default.

    The President and every member of Congress swore an oath to uphold the Constitution, If the GOP members of the House fail in that oath, the President must not allow that failure to put the nation at economic risk.

    1. profile image60
      logic,commonsenseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Didn't you hear, Obama wrote an executive order saying he was the only one that could interpret the Constitution.  Too bad he doesn't have a clue what is in it or what it means.

      1. Doug Hughes profile image60
        Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I think that as a Constitutional scholar, he realized that the ploy by the House Teabaggers is flat explicitly totally unconstitutional.

        I don't mean that in the way Wingnuts do. Anything liberal to them is unconstitutional even if there is nothing in the Constitution to support their whim.

        1. SlenderHope profile image57
          SlenderHopeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          That man is a "constitutional scholar" like I'm a nuclear physicist.  I wonder why we have no records available to indicate to us what sort of a student of the Constitution he was (I mean before he became a "scholar".  I wonder why we've never seen his school records at all.  Got any ideas about that?

          1. Quilligrapher profile image74
            Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            President Obama’s actual grades are his business not ours but his academic accomplishments are a matter of public record.  Feel free to verify the following:

            High School:
            Punahou School
            Honolulu, HI
            Graduated in 1979
            Occidental College, 2 years, no degree
            Columbia University
            Bachelor’s Degree in International Relations
            Graduated in 1983
            Harvard Law
            Juris Doctorate (J.D.)
            Graduated in 1991
            Magna Cum Laude

            1. lovemychris profile image76
              lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              ummmm, doesn't cum laude mean with honors or something?

              1. FitnezzJim profile image76
                FitnezzJimposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                cum laude - with praise
                magna cum laude - with great praise

                1. lovemychris profile image76
                  lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  why thank you!

      2. Quilligrapher profile image74
        Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        No such executive order was ever written.

        1. TMMason profile image60
          TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I think that was simply sarcasm, Quill.

          1. Quilligrapher profile image74
            Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks for your input, Tom.  Some may know it's sarcasm but I wouldn't want the rest to think it's true. In this forum, I find it difficult to discern this example of sarcasm from all the others.

            1. TMMason profile image60
              TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You welcome, Q.

              Happy Fourth Of July!

              Hope you have a great day.

    2. SlenderHope profile image57
      SlenderHopeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Invoking the 14th Amendment is redundant.   The US has to honor its debts and, as things stand,  the government has plenty of money coming in to do just that. So, paying those debts does not require raising the debt ceiling.  The real issue is how do we fund all those other programs that congress, in its infinite wisdom, has appropriated...such as Obamacare.  Those are areas where FUTURE FUNDING is the issue and it has nothing whatsoever to do (yet) with "debt" or the 14th Amendment.

    3. OpinionDuck profile image60
      OpinionDuckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      This is all Red Herring.
      The Congresses for the past fifty years have increased the size of the government workforce, and the scope of the government.

      They have thrown several trillion dollars in just the last three years without solving any problems. The economy of the country is the direct result of the actions or inactions of congress.

      Now you want us to believe that continuing the spending beyond any limits is going to keep the country from a depression, then you need to rethink your position.

      The foundation of this pathetic economy has collapsed, and nothing has changed it in the last three years. The root causes of the collapse has not been fixed, and spending more moeny is going to support government, The government is bloated and ineffective, and you want to keep feeding them.

    4. BukowskiBabe profile image79
      BukowskiBabeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Our leaders are addicted to spending. It's in their DNA. I think they have a gene that turns on the moment the soles of their feet hit the floor of congress. I'm conviced that in time, a scientist will discover the gene. Until then, we as a people must do something to discourage the absolute waste of the people's money. Many view this problem via the lens of a right/left paradigm, but it's endemic to both parties. If we raise the debt ceiling, the spending will continue. We need to elect a leader who will cut the crap so  to speak, but we won't. The electorate wants a rock star, American Idol president; substance doesn't appear to matter. Sure, Obama is an articulate, well educated man with a lovely family. That doesn't mean he's well suited for the role of presdient. At this juncture, he's added in excess of 4 trillion to the national debt in under three years!  To put that number in perspective, George Bush added around 5 trillion in the course of two terms. We're talking Bush spending on steroids. The common response from the left is that Obama is fixing the Bush failed economy.  Oh, rubbish. Bush spent, Obama is spending, congress spends. They're out of control. We need a true fiscal conservative in office. Someone like Ron Paul, but that won't happen. He's not a rock star. At the level of the presidency, our politicians are as slickly marketed as a name brand product. The political establishment is loathe to accept a Ron Paul. Therefore,no matter who prevails in 2012, the beat goes on.

  2. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    We are not defaulting, by not raising the debt cieling... we are just saying NO to the 2.1 trillion dollar stimuluse they want from it.

    We have enough to cover our debts, but not to continue on this Wilma and Betty spending spree of Obamas and the Socialist/Progressives who are destroying our nation.

    1. Doug Hughes profile image60
      Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If there is a program that you object to, repeal the law that authorizes it.. if you can get  the majorities and the White House. If you can not, you MUST pay the debts of the country, including the costs of implementing the legislation that HAS been passed.

      This situation is exactly the kind of situation which the North anticipated from those members of Congress from the defeated South hostile to the very existence of the Federal Government. The South was defeated in combat - it was important to make it impossible for them to conduct legislative terrorism. I don't make this up..

      Senator Wade of Ohio was the architect of this amendment and he wrote..

      "as to whether open and hostile rebels shall not have seats in Congress. If they are admitted here to act with their sympathizers at the North, who have constantly opposed every policy that looked to the renumeration of those engaged in the war on our part . . . what will be the result? Under the dictation of such a policy, should it prevail, who can guaranty that the debts of the Goverment will be paid, ..."

      The goal of Section Four of the 14th Amendment makes the attempt to strangle the Federal Government by legislative extortion unconstitutional.

      1. TMMason profile image60
        TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        The debts will be paid.

        The debt cieling will not be raised. if it is,.. out go the wiesels.


        We, America, are well on our way to taking back the White House and the Senate. So we will take up your advicxe and change a whole bunch of things in a backroom, behind closed doors, just like the Socialist Democrats did.

        ie; Obama-care, The New Financial regs, and so many other pieces of legisltion passed in the dead of night and designed to scew us, it is going to make your damn head spin, Doug.

        And I expect ole Chris will be apopleptic and vomiting everywhere over it.

        1. Doug Hughes profile image60
          Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You are not America. You are one person.

          If you wish to pronounce yourself mouthpiece for the Teabaggers, that may be appropriate.

          My opinion is that the 15 minutes of fame for that gang is just about up.

          1. TMMason profile image60
            TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I am very representative of Conservative America. So too bad.

            Us lil people have decided to get all uppity. We are the silent Majority, and we are tired of being silent. Wait till the elections Doug.

            1. Doug Hughes profile image60
              Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Conservatives want Medicare.

              Fund it.

              Conservatives want Social Security. Fund it.

              The Ryan Plan, with tax cuts for the top 1%,  is all about preserving power for the rich.

              Its becoming obvious that the conservative base has been betrayed by the leadership. Seniors will not line up like sheep to be shorn of Medicare & Social Security for the benefit of the fat cats.

            2. lovemychris profile image76
              lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Heard that one mean your still here????

              They turned out to be the anti-abortionists....the Pro-Life- Until-They're-Born crowd.

              Vomit?....more like throw buggers.

              And by the way:

              Keep your government hands out of my private life!!

              1. TMMason profile image60
                TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Your a riot... always ranting...never making sense. you have been reduced to babbling like the others earlier. Only your in a permanent state of inanity.

                1. Doug Hughes profile image60
                  Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this


                2. American View profile image60
                  American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this


                  Looks like Doug wants tochallenge Evan to be the hubpages spelling champ. Well gives them something to do since they are incorrect most of the other time

              2. profile image60
                logic,commonsenseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Keep your Democrats out of my billfold.

                1. Doug Hughes profile image60
                  Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  If you aren't making over 250K you and your billfold are safe.

                  1. SlenderHope profile image57
                    SlenderHopeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh please.  Not true Doug.  The only "solution" Democrats have these days is "raise taxes".  It touches us all.

                    Do you consider people earning $250,000 a year to be "rich"?  You do understand that small businesses will fall under this heading, right?

            3. Jeff Berndt profile image75
              Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Huh, I don't remember any election...

        2. BukowskiBabe profile image79
          BukowskiBabeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You mean Matthews won't be getting any more, 'thrills up his leg"?  Awww, that's too bad.

  3. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

    What is it 3 trillion from the wars that Bush begun.

    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Doesn't mean we need to spend another 2.1 trillion man.

      1. Ralph Deeds profile image67
        Ralph Deedsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        The issue isn't whether or not we spend more, but whether we will pay for what we have already spent and owe.

  4. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

    'Till you figure out who is spending it and why it does.

  5. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    "We have enough to cover our debts, but not to continue on this Wilma and Betty spending spree of Obamas and the Socialist/Progressives who are destroying our nation<--Mason

    "What is it 3 trillion from the wars that Bush begun."<--LMC

    "Doesn't mean we need to spend another 2.1 trillion man."<-Mason

    Mason demonstrates the flaw of denial....

    But this is not all.... The expansions of spending under the Bush Administration are well documented...  I don't like using Bush's name at this point, because it shifts the culpability of the entire GOP onto him... Boehner has been in the Legislature a long, long time..  He's not alone...

    The 2008-2009 budget took us deep into a hole...and it is important to remember that the GOP/Bush Administration has at least equal if not greater responsibility for its creation as the Democrats/Obama Administration that had just taken office... … -pictures/ … conomy.htm

    ""Swords into Frisbees:" The Military-Industrial Complex
    In large part, the "American Dream" was supported by expanded military investment. The federal government increased military spending after the "fall" of China and the Korean War. Companies that had never been involved in the military came to see the Department of Defense as their best customer. By the mid-1950s, there were over 40,000 defense contractors working for the federal government. By the 1960s, more than half of all government expenditures went to the military. By the 1970s, the Department of Defense had more economic assets than the 75 largest corporations in America. With so many people depending directly on companies supported by the Department of Defense, a number of social critics charged that the United States had established a permanent wartime economy. Indeed, when an economic recession struck in 1956, President Eisenhower responded by allocating more money to defense, not by supporting public works projects as Roosevelt had done. At the end of his second term, Eisenhower, himself, warned Americans that the growing relationship between defense contractors and the federal government posed a threat. In this 1961 farewell address, he coined the term "military-industrial complex."

    Many Americans ignored his warnings. After all, why worry when the economy was prosperous? Americans made up only 6% of the world population, yet they produced and consumed 1/3 of the world's goods and services. During the 1950s, America's Gross National Product (GNP) increased 51%. Defense spending helped fuel this growth. Home consumption, however, also drove economic expansion. GIs returning from World War II and Korea were eager to spend money and to have children. In the 1950s, 29 million new Americans were born. The birth rate of the United States was comparable to that of India. To meet the consumer demands of this increasing population, American industry expanded at an amazing pace and turned out new cars, clothing, Frisbees, and a plethora of other consumer items.

    Meeting the Demand
    Nothing did more to increase productivity than "automation," the use of self-regulating electronic machines to run complex industrial operations. Automation made its greatest long-term impact with the introduction of the computer. Many blue-collar workers feared they would lose their jobs to machinery, to robots, and they were right to be frightened. White-collar professionals, on the other hand, profited from automation. Job growth largely benefited college graduates, not blue-collar workers or skilled laborers. Much of the new technology owed its rise to "R&D" -- research and development departments. Such departments existed not only within big corporations like IBM, but at universities. The connections of modern research universities like the University of Wisconsin to the military-industrial complex, in fact, made campuses a focal point for anti-war protest during the 1960s.

    Growth of the Middle Class
    During the 1950s, the real weekly earnings of factory workers increased 50%. The traditional "pyramid" of income distribution began to look more like a "diamond" with the burgeoning middle class. If we consider an annual income of $10,000 a middle-class income, then, in the 1940s, 9% of families fit that definition. By 1960, however, more than 30% of the population was middle class. Changes in education and housing further demonstrated the growth of the middle class. The year 1960 marked the first time in United States history that a majority of high-school aged people actually graduated from high school. Aided by the GI Bill, college enrollments also increased. Owning a home also became a tangible reality for more and more Americans, as the availability of housing increased and veterans could secure low-interest mortgages. By 1960, 25% of all housing available had been built in the prior decade."

    From: … ure24.html

    We are not seeing the symptoms of "socialism"......but we are living in the post-World War 2 is bursting...

    We have to create the environment for change....and in my mind this begins with the youth....  We have to alter the way societal institutions have been created around us...andit begins with education:

    The video is incomplete...but it gets thinking going..

  6. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    I have stated over and over it is both Parties. Only some in here deny that.

    I wonder who they could be?

    Yes Boehner and Bush the Progressives are at fault same as every Liberal Socialist D43mocrat in offince and who has been for the 90 years.

    So try again.

    And our Debts will be paid.

    1. BukowskiBabe profile image79
      BukowskiBabeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Don't attempt to take away the Left's beloved Bush Boogyman excuse. You will invoke a collective form of hysteria. Just say yes, yes dear....the right side of aisle all wave pitchforks while the left side of the aisle gently strum harps and are graced with halos.

  7. Moderndayslave profile image60
    Moderndayslaveposted 12 years ago … s-america/
    This country has a lot of problems,tax cuts and deregulation got us where we are now (worked well huh?).Handouts aren't the answer either especially corporate.Instead of being a Republican or a Democrat try being a American.You want to keep more of your money you say? Enough of the war games/crusades ,we don't belong in any of those places.The Bush PNAC dynasty is over not to mention the 2 Trillion Rummy and the pentagon lost on 9-10-11 . Next audit and end the fed and it's boom bust cycles. Until any of this happens ,,stop crying,my money and we can't stop going into debt if we don't stop being robbed and stop the spending.

    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I am not a Republican, nor am I a Democrat, nor am I a Socialist or Progressive... so try again.

      And if you had ever read my replies in here you would know my stance on non-interventionalism. Among a whole lot of other issues. So... try again.

      They have all done this to us... and we have sat around and allowed it. You seem to be of the opinion it is simply the, Right and "big Corps.", huh...

      A lil one sided there... so don't act like you're anymore open to truth to than any other Leant Leftist else around here, or more an American than I.

      I will explain this again, Bush is a Progressive "Republican". And the Leftists in the Socialist Democrat Party are no better than they. We have a one party system as of decades ago.

      1. SlenderHope profile image57
        SlenderHopeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        And yet Doug would call those Americans who wish to change the system back to one where the Constitution is held as the "prime directive" and to provide a different way "teabaggers".

        1. Doug Hughes profile image60
          Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          The economic terrorism of the Tea Party is unconstitutional.

          If there is any act of Congress you would amend or repeal,  you have to get the votes to do it.

          Strangling the budget to extort what you can't legislate violates the letter and the spirit of the 14th amendment.

          'Teabagger' is an apt metaphor for the service they provide their moneyed masters.

          1. TMMason profile image60
            TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Like the left's master George Soros, who sold his own people to the NAZI gas chambers... you all have some great heros, Doug.

            Your entire side on the left, and the Progressives, are funded by his blood money from selling his own to the NAZIs.

            1. lovemychris profile image76
              lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              Once again, this is about Tea-Baggers. Stop using the techniques's so blatant, sheeeeeesh.

          2. lovemychris profile image76
            lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            "Tea-Baggging and I'm thinking of you....Tea-Bagging and I'm thinking of you"...sung to the tune of Aretha Franklin, Daydreaming.


          3. BukowskiBabe profile image79
            BukowskiBabeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            ah, now that the blame Bush mantra is getting passe', we must deal with the dreaded and ever classy term, Tea Baggers. Oy freaking vey. Oh, those horrible Tea Bagger people.....typical

      2. BukowskiBabe profile image79
        BukowskiBabeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        They don't get it. Somewhere along the way, the left began to inhabit a hate streaked universe. Anyone who does not conform to the rules in their far left mantra, is a rabid GOP ideologue. I remember when the left really was liberal. When it really was live and let live. Now it's all about the insanity of the contrived cool..associated with the left. It's okay to be different, as long as you never step out of the box...dig.

  8. Moderndayslave profile image60
    Moderndayslaveposted 12 years ago

    Actually that was a general statement to the entire thread ,don't think it's all about you. It's Hubpages not Masons forums

    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      My apologies Logic, was thiinking you were speaking to me.

      When do you think we should start useing the new name?... smile

      1. Moderndayslave profile image60
        Moderndayslaveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        No need ,I feel this country is screwed for many reasons ,the status quo needs to end

        1. TMMason profile image60
          TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Sorry MDS... one of those mornings... I cannot even get your name right. duh I am lost today. I should probrably just crawl back to bed. hmm

          The Status quo, yes, I agree.

          The structure needs to be returned to the bedrock of the Constitution, which has been sorely dis-regarded and usurped over the last 90 years. We have created an unsustainable system, and it is morally currupt, collapse is inevitable.

          Which is what is being pushed for by many elites from Socialist Democrat and Progressive Right, to the useful idiots in all the walks of life, Political Parties, and Govt offices and posts, , the Agenda has worked out great. Read the blogs on the Communist and Socialist American web sites, they are ecstatic about the comining great day they have waited so long for and worked so hard to inspire.

          We have been sold all the way around, MDS.

  9. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    I don't think any scholar who considers it a "Living Document" should be allowed anywhere near the Constitution.

    1. Paradise7 profile image70
      Paradise7posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      TM, I hate to get personal with anyone, but you are really some kind of piece of work.  Every single thing you've put out there is logically flawed, or contains inaccurate info.  You can't seem to maintain a level perspective on any subject, and you have opinions on them all.

      We've had this kind of thing on the forums before.  I think in the long run that's what has driven so many people away.

      1. TMMason profile image60
        TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        You can think what you want, Paradise.

        My facts are well supported, unlike your and their assertions of what science says, and sourced for all your examinings. If someone doesn't want to accept what I say and show, they are free not to.

        And I am just as free to have my opinions and assert them and produce any and all sources to support them, as anyone else in these forums. And I believe many people leave here because of the attitudes and BS they have to put up from the Leftists and Atheists on here.

        And yes, I am well read in a lot of subjects. And I do not buy into BS spewed by the Leant leftist Progressve agenda machine.

        ie; Genetic Homo-sex, Evolution... I am not a child for you all to think to indoctrinate. I have looked into many, many, things for many, many, years. Go spew the fake science and stats at someone who doesn't know they are fake and false... like the lil children in school rooms.

    2. Jeff Berndt profile image75
      Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well, I don't think anyone who doesn't understand that the Constitution was designed to be amended when necessary (that's what "living document" means) has any business saying who is and is not allowed near the Constitution.

  10. JSChams profile image61
    JSChamsposted 12 years ago

    It's unconstitutional to not have a budget as well, but that did not stop the controlling Democrats from allowing it to be so. Let's face it, you don't want a budget period. Debt ceiling. There's a hole in the bucket called spending. If you take care of that you won't have a problem. There has been a study done which says if you CONFISCATE all the wealth of the first 200 billionaires in this country you still fall short of erasing the debt by 300 billion. Not to mention you have the choice of taxing less and having more revenue sources or taxing heavily and having less revenue sources.

    Sure would like to raise the debt ceiling for my family, but somehow it does not work that way.

    1. Doug Hughes profile image60
      Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Where is it unconstitutional not to have a budget? Generally, when people use the word 'unconstitutional' and don't cite the Constitution, they are full of prunes.

      Evan has his view of the Constitution and I often disagree but he can ALWAYS cite a source.

      1. TMMason profile image60
        TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Excellent job at ignoring reality, Doug. Are you ever going to admit that you made a huge gaff and should correct it?

        1. lovemychris profile image76
          lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          3. "Projection/Flipping. This one is frustrating for the viewer who is trying to actually follow the argument. It involves taking whatever underhanded tactic you're using and then accusing your opponent of doing it to you first. We see this frequently in the immigration discussion, where anti-racists are accused of racism, or in the climate change debate, where those who argue for human causes of the phenomenon are accused of not having science or facts on their side. It's often called upon when the media host finds themselves on the ropes in the debate."

          1. TMMason profile image60
            TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            You're one to talk Chris.

            This has been a highly respected trick of the Leant Leftists for decades, and now we will not allow it anymore.

            The fact is you all shout BS and spew lies, then name call when your caught and outed. ie; racist, bigot, "whiteman lol", homophobe, xenophobe, etc...

            In reality most of you suffer from Anglo-phobia to the point of a straght up mental dis-order.

            Doug, though, put that video out the other day, and you were here also, as Beck faking his crying with vicks on his show.

            The video was of an ad shooting, where they wanted him to have tears and asked for that to be done. So he could at least... at the very least, admit his fault in propagating that lie.

            And then we can get to your blatent propaganda tactics.

            1. lovemychris profile image76
              lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              We are talking about you here, not me.
              You go find an article that lists MSNBC propganda techniques, OK?
              Until then, this is about Righty-Land.

        2. Doug Hughes profile image60
          Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          What gaff? I don't think you have actually pointed out any flaw in my reasoning.

          1. TMMason profile image60
            TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            And appearently you're not reading replies either.

            Doug, though, put that video out the other day, and you were here also, as Beck faking his crying with vicks on his show.

            The video was of a magazine shoot, where they wanted him to have tears and asked for that to be done.

            So you could at least... at the very least, admit this fault in propagating that lie.

            1. Doug Hughes profile image60
              Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              You're (proper use of contraction) going way off topic.

              Which shows the OP is valid and suggests you are becoming frantic.

  11. Moderndayslave profile image60
    Moderndayslaveposted 12 years ago

    Call me stupid but,If the US government wants to borrow money they issue bonds,the federal reserve buys some these bonds by creating money or keystrokes on a computer just like QE-2? Now we(you and I) need to pay the interest on these bonds.Here's what I don't get,if the Fed pulled the cash out of thin air and we were stupid enough to give them these bonds why should we pay them? All private parties and investors deserve to be repaid for bond purchases but the Fed? Every penny we owe the fed should be considered Odious Debt and totally forgotten. How stupid are we?We need to fix this system.

  12. lovemychris profile image76
    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

    BTW--that story is another Glenn Beck LIE. … 1309612678

    1. American View profile image60
      American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Almost everthing Beck said is false

      1. Jeff Berndt profile image75
        Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        No, he would typically start out with something that was true, and then make some wild leap of illogic connecting the original true thing to some completely unrelated true bad thing, and then conclude that the first thing is therefore also bad. Like this:

        The sky is blue. You know what else is blue? The UN flag! And of course, Hitler wanted his master race to have blue eyes! So isn't it obvious? But the sky isn't always blue, is it? Sometimes, in the morning or in the evening, it gets red, to the delight or alarm of sailors everywhere. You know what else is red, don't you? That's right! The flags of the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China! The Commies! By now you've figured it out, haven't you?
        The sky is a communist-nazi plot looming over us! It must be stopped! Make sure you vote Obama out of office, because he loves the communist-nazi sky.

        Heck, maybe I should apply to be FOX's next Glen Beck type host. Turns out I can make up absurd stuff almost as well as he can. I wonder if I'd start believing it after a wile, though....

    2. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Your link won't open, Chris... I have tried over and over.

      Another please.

      And we know the hand-book of the Leftists, Chris. You all have left your trail in words all throughout American Culture and literiture. You all are so busted!

      And George soros is a bloodied demon of a man...
      Soro's  states in his own words that he has no regret for selling his own to the NAZI chambers.

      That is a FACT!

      I watched the interview on 60 mins. and his own mouth spoke the reply to the questions as regards that matter. Try toi spin it on the Right all you want.

      A video they have worked feverishly to remove from the net and TV in all countries.


      (Ezra Levant)- George Schwartz was born in Hungary in 1930 — not the luckiest time and place to be born a Jew.

      George’s father Theodore tried to change the family’s fortunes by changing their name to something less Jewish-sounding. It didn’t help. And soon war came.

      When the Nazis took total control of Hungary in 1944, the Holocaust followed. In two months, 440,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to death camps.

      To survive, George, then a teenager, collaborated with the Nazis.

      First he worked for the Judenrat. That was the Jewish council set up by the Nazis to do their dirty work for them. Instead of the Nazis rounding up Jews every day for the trains, they delegated that murderous task to Jews who were willing to do it to survive another day at the expense of their neighbours.

      Theodore hatched a better plan for his son. He bribed a non-Jewish official at theagriculture ministry to let George live with him. George helped the official confiscate property from Jews.

      By collaborating with the Nazis, George survived the Holocaust. He turned on other Jews to spare himself.

      George moved to London after the war and then to New York, where he became a stockbroker. He’s rich now. Forbes magazine says he’s the 35th richest man in the world. Maybe you’ve heard of him. He goes by the name his father invented: George Soros.

      How does Soros feel about what he did as a teenager? Has it kept him up at night?

      Steve Kroft of 60 Minutes asked him that. Was it difficult? “Not at all,” Soros answered.

      “No feeling of guilt?” asked Kroft. “No,” said Soros. “There was no sense that I shouldn’t be there. If I wasn’t doing it, somebody else would be taking it away anyhow. Whether I was there or not. So I had no sense of guilt.”

      A Nazi would steal the Jews’ property anyways. So why not him?

      That moral hollowness has shaped Soros’ life. He’s a rabid critic of capitalism, but in 1992 when he saw a chance, he speculated against the British pound, causing it to crash, devastating retirement savings for millions of Britons. Soros pocketed $1.1 billion for himself. If he didn’t do it, someone else would, right? … a_quisling,8816,986919,00.html … 198/47856/

      So try another...

      And the man has stated it in his own words in his own writings... so denial is a joke... Soros' own words, "The happiest time of my life was under NAZI occupation."... … re=related

      Imagine what his dream of a perfect world is... the Leant Left and Progressive Right is aware of all this... and are trying like hell to make Soros' dream come tru.

  13. TheSenior profile image59
    TheSeniorposted 12 years ago

    Being an independent - I for one want the Dems to stop spending for everything under the sun.  There must be a compromise, but taxing the rich is not one of them, I would however favor a temp tax on the super rich for the purposes of bring revenue into the treasury, but not spendable by the Dems.

  14. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago
    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Google the 60 mins video of the interview... find it, watch it... he said it from his own mouth, and he has written about it in his own books. The media bowing to his pressure is not proof it was false.

      Here is a video with the relevent parts of the interview...

      Starts at... 1:17 seconds, ends at 3:29 seconds. Soros and the NAZIS... 60 minutes, 1998 interview. And more... … -nazi.html

      Not at all difficult for him, and, it was the best time of his life... no regrets, it formed his charactor.

      So he and you Leant Leftists can say what you want.. he said it, he did it, and he has no regrets for it.

      1. Doug Hughes profile image60
        Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        When I make Soros my avatar, I will debate his life and choices. None of the Progressives on hubpages quote Soros or particularly care.

        The discussion by our mccarthite is designed and intended to sidetrack the discussion from issues. The OP documents that the tactics of the Teabaggers to hold the economy hostage to their crazy demands is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

        And that's the last thing they want voters thinking about. So you see them shouting, 'Look- over there - a shiny distraction!'

  15. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago
    1. Doug Hughes profile image60
      Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The Soros argument fails because there can be no evil conspiracy by the evil rich when the goals of that conspiracy are to require that wealthy private individuals and corporate giants pay their share in support of the common man.

      If and when democrats ever work to sustain the wealth and privileges of the corporate elite, and propose to throw the elderly under the bus by privatizing Social Security and Medicare, an examination of motives and undue influence is appropriate.

      While they are engaged in support of programs clearly for the general welfare, screams of conspiracy ring hollow.

  16. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    The pointing to Soros is tantamount to McCarthy with his little "book o'names" game... 

    Having listened to several of his interviews and lectures, I do not see the connection that Misguided Mason tries to make...  Then again, this is the same guy who tries to make Obama appear to be a foreigner... 

    Dumb and dumber.......

  17. lovemychris profile image76
    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

    Uh Oh....

    "Is Rick Perry Already In Violation of the 14th Amendment?" … -Amendment

  18. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    The 14th Amendment... "But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States,"

    According to this we can legally defund the entire Leftist Socialist Liberal Democrat Progressive Agenda, and not pay a dime to any of you Commies-(China included)-, Socialists', Marxists, Liberals Democrats or Progressives, we could with-hold your Senators and Represenatives' pay and Attorneys fees, -(Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac officials would be screwed)-, we could sieze any and all assets, and arrest you all right of the Colleges and Universities, State Houses and Wall Street offices.... we could actually get rid of all you in one fell swoop...

    Damn! I cannot wait till we have the Majority... enjoy your cuffs.

    1. Quilligrapher profile image74
      Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Tom. I see you too are relaxing at your keyboard on this 4th of July.
      Thanks very much for this particularly humorous comment. It is hard to tell if you are serious or dreaming. If written while awake, it provides your readers and me with three very important observations. The first is its ability to leap from the sublime…
      …to the ridiculous…
      …and never notice the departure from reality and logic in between.
      The second observation is that the style and arrogance used to promote this extreme, fanatical thinking guarantees it a place on the fringes of the political landscape with the other extremists unable to co-exist with competing ideologies.
      And finally, it convinces me such aspirations will never enjoy a majority. Most Americans have no desire to revive the accusations by innuendo, quilt by association, character assassination, intimidation, and fear-monger tactics of the McCarthy era.
      I hope you have a great day, my friend, and you enjoy your weekend reverie.

      1. Doug Hughes profile image60
        Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Setting aside the levity of Tom's post, I think he was serious that he expects Teabaggers to do well in the next election.

        The polls suggest otherwise.  Gallop shows a consistent trend - approval for the Tea Party is at 33% (from 39% in Jan) and disapproval is at 47% (from 42% in Jan.) The ship is sinking.

        Fortunately the GOP candidates are lining up to sail in the Titanic, just in time for the next election.

        The Ryan plan steps right in the face of the conservative base - senior voters. I don't think seniors will vote 'D' in the next election. I think seniors will boycott until conservatism represents their values.

  19. lovemychris profile image76
    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

    Perry's got the key. He's "The Bilderberger
    Pick" for president.

    Maybe cause he sold our highways off to Spain?
    Pay a toll??  Muchas Gracias.

  20. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    Communists to Back Obama and Democrats in 2012

    The Communist Party USA, while on occasion working to build third party efforts, has since the 1930s, consistently supported and infiltrated the Democratic Party.

    In a column in today’s Peoples World, Communist Party national Secretary Sam Webb, lays out the reasons why his Party, despite some “disappointments,” will continue to support their “friend” Barack Obama and the Democrats in 2012.

    But the main question from a strategic point of view is this: Does it make any difference, from the standpoint of the class and democratic struggles, which party gains political ascendency?

    Some – though not the labor movement nor other mass organizations of the American people – say no, it doesn’t.

    Some even go a step further and say a Democratic victory creates popular illusions, which in turn weaken the people’s struggles. And the only way out of this vise is to form a third party now.

    Communists don’t agree with either one of these views. In our view, the differences between the two parties of capitalism are of consequence to class and democratic struggles.

    Neither party is anti-capitalist, but they aren’t identical either. Differences exist at the levels of policy and social composition. And despite the many frustrations of the past two years, the election of Barack Obama was historic and gave space to struggle for a people’s agenda.... … s-in-2012/

    Happy 4th of July America....wake up or it may be one of our last! There is merely the illusion of a two party system in this country... and they are simply one party, the Socialsit Democrat/Progressive Party... wake up!

    1. Ralph Deeds profile image67
      Ralph Deedsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      One of the principal differences between Democrats and Republicans is over the extent and type of regulations required to assure that capitalist markets deliver honestly and fairly on their promised benefits to Americans, the environment, etc. Both parties support market capitalism.

  21. lovemychris profile image76
    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago


    I don't think so.

    At the top the game may be the same, but they are going down, like a house of cards.

    Then it's time to choose.

    People vs Profit.

  22. FitnezzJim profile image76
    FitnezzJimposted 12 years ago

    How does 'validity of the public debt' equate to 'raising the debt ceiling'.  I read this entire forum and could not see any logic indicating the two should be linked.
    It seems to me that there would be nothing unconstitutional about refuing to incur more debt.  If we chose to default on current debt, that would be a problem.

    1. Doug Hughes profile image60
      Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Actually, I would agree with you - there would not be a link between the public debt and the debt ceiling IF republicans were willing to raise taxes to cover the deficit. Frankly, I would prefer that.

      Without raising taxes, refusing to raise the raise the ceiling is a repudiation of the public debt.

      I appreciate that you bothered to read the 14th Amendment. You saw that it says 'public debt' 'including...pensions'. So the 14th is not limited to requiring payments on the national debt, but also accruals like pensions and any act 'authorized by law'.

      The letter and the intent of the 14th amensment says you can't repeal or amend any law by holding funds hostage. Once a law is passed, the question of whether or not the US will pay is 'beyond question'.

      1. FitnezzJim profile image76
        FitnezzJimposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        I have a bit of trouble with the phrase 'refusing to raise the raise the ceiling is a repudiation of the public debt.' mostly because it seems like an attempt to tell me what they are thinking about what they are doing.  I doubt psychics.

        To me refusing to raise the debt ceiling is just that, refusing to raise the debt ceiling.  To me that means: 1) no new loans, 2) stop spending on the things that are not really debts, 3) divert funds from things that are not 'required' spending to things that are 'required' spending.  In other words, the typical family approach to stopping overspending.

        'Repudiation of the public debt' on the other hand would be something like defaulting on a loan while keeping the car you bought with that loan.  Something an individual can only get away with temporarily, or longer if he changes his name enough.

        Just my simple opinion though.

        As for the Constitution, I read it often, but never remember it, and certainly am no authority,  It is important though.  Becasue of that I keep links to the government archive website for the Constitution.  I find myself regularly clicking on that favorite as I ponder the truth about claims of what the Constitution says.

  23. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    If you all insist on twisting the Constitution, then lets use it the right way, if not stop clowning around and get back to cutting the spending.

    And no I am serious, real links can be shown to the Socialist Democrat Leftists, and the Progressive Right, to many groups which seek the over-throw of this nation. We see them in the streets with you all hand in hand lovin it up... birds of a feather... they speak with you all at your events and serve in the White-House, Senate and House with you all... how much more would we need?

    Nothing at all.

    No... no joke at all. We, America, see you all...

    1. Doug Hughes profile image60
      Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      'Over-throw of this nation'

      Let me guess. You have a copy of the top-secret list of the traitors.

      Check your meds, TMM.

  24. Moderndayslave profile image60
    Moderndayslaveposted 12 years ago

    When this country wakes up we can get out of this mess. Keep bickering over useless ideals.We can attack a foreign country in the drop of a hat but bend over for the bankers......OK,,,, The fed owns 40% of the national debt,look up Odious debt and how to deal with it. … re=related … re=related … re=related … re=related

  25. lovemychris profile image76
    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

    There is no such thing as a trillion dollars. You can not produce it physically. It's make-believe.
    It's just a control mechanism. A concept to make some better than others.
    Stupid as sh*t, and dumb.

    Here--this person has many make-believe concepts...let him/her live a wonderful life.
    This person has very few make believe concepts...let him/her suffer.

    The debt can be erased in a second. Because it's not really there!!It doesn't exist.

    Imagine...we have devised this system of control, made up of nothing! Numbers on a screen.
    Which people kill and die for. Amazing.

    At street level--yeah money is real. But on the national gvtal scale...nah, they are playing a whole other game.

    sorry--NOW to watch those vids!!!

  26. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    They are all out in the open these days, Doug. No need for any secret anything.

    But yes there are records and wire-taps and a lot of other compliled pieces of the puzzle to document their actions.

    Laugh all you want....we see you all.

    ---"But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States,..."----

    Nothing for any of you.

    And of couirse La'Raza is anti American... they taeach it right in our schools to our children. I especially like their creed; "For Our Race All, For All Others Nothing!"

    Your all one big happy anit-American, anti Constitution, anti-freedom, political party. And our conspiracy laws state that one hand does not have to know, or participate, with the other hand, for them both to be held responsible.

  27. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    Keep using terms that you don't understand, Mason...

    Your "Raza" remarks are just the icing on the cake...

    How many "Raza" do you know?

    How many Mechistas or their meetings have you attended?

    You can keep brandying about your weak little quotation, but, like your "Obama the foreignor" and "evil Soros" garbage, it only makes you out to be more and more on the mental fringe... 

    The innsurrection you keep pointing to is all in your mind...

    1. American View profile image60
      American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The National Council of La Raza (NCLR) is a non-profit and non-partisan advocacy group in the United States, focused on improving opportunities for Hispanics
      In the context that NCLR uses it, “La Raza” it means “the people,” or “the Hispanic people of the New World”[7] — people of Chicano (i.e. Mexican American) and Mexican descent and the Hispanic world, as well as mestizos who share Native American or national Hispanic heritage
      Anti-illegal immigration websites, such as American Patrol and The American Resistance, accuse NCLR of encouraging illegal immigration to the United States.

  28. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    "Chicano" means many things to many people...

    As does "La Raza"...

    The NCLR is an advocacy group that champions the rights of oppressed peoples, specifically those classified by the United States as "Latinos" (a term made up by Anglophiles)..

    Chicano itself speaks to the idea that American society feeds off oppression...  It lives through degrading and overpowering those considered "unAmerican" or "not American/not American enough"....  This is a legacy that has not been eradicated even after 300 plus years...

    The consciousness of this oppression, and the opposition to it can define one as a "Chicano"...  It does not denote specifically an ethnicity or "race"...

    All one has to do is get involved with MEChA, and see the ethnic diversity of this "Latino" organization... 

    There are those who seek to demonize and deride what they don't like... I understand this... I used to be one of them... I used to vocally reject MEChA, Chicano Studies and the "La Raza".....but then I took the time to figure out what these terms meant... I invested the energy to meet people, go to group meetings, and to conduct a variety of research...  It is based off all of this that I make my points...

    To demonize the "Raza" or "Chicano" is to perpetuate over a century of discrimination against Latinos.....and deny over a century of abuse at the hands of Anglo-Europeans...whether they come from Europe or the United States...

  29. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    Fine young men indeed...

    The Truth About 'La Raza'

    It is past time for all Americans to know what is at the root of this outrageous behavior, and the extent to which the nation is at risk because of "La Raza" -- Which literally means "The Race", not somehting different to everyone.

    There are many immigrant groups joined in the overall "La Raza" movement. The most prominent and mainstream organization is the National Council de La Raza -- the Council of "The Race".

    Behind the respectable front of the National Council of La Raza lies the real agenda of the La Raza movement, the agenda that led to those thousands of illegal immigrants in the streets of American cities, waving Mexican flags, brazenly defying our laws, and demanding concessions.

    Key among the secondary organizations is the radical racist group Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan, or Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan (MEChA), one of the most anti-American groups in the country, which has permeated U.S. campuses since the 1960s, and continues its push to carve a racist nation out of the American West.

    "Chicano is our identity; it defines who we are as people. It rejects the notion that we...should assimilate into the Anglo-American melting pot...Aztlan was the legendary homeland of the Aztecas ... It became synonymous with the vast territories of the Southwest, brutally stolen from a Mexican people marginalized and betrayed by the hostile custodians of the Manifest Destiny." (Statement on University of Oregon MEChA Website, Jan. 3, 2006)

    MEChA isn't at all shy about their goals, or their views of other races. Their founding principles are contained in these words in "El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan" (The Spiritual Plan for Aztlan):

    "In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny. ... Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. ... We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."

    That closing two-sentence motto is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all. It says: "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."

    If these morally sickening MEChA quotes were coming from some fringe website, Americans could at least console themselves that it was just a small group of nuts behind it. Nearly every racial and ethnic group has some shady characters and positions in its past and some unbalanced individuals today claiming racial superiority and demanding separatism. But this is coming straight from the official MEChA sites at Georgetown University, the University of Texas, UCLA, University of Michigan, University of Colorado, University of Oregon, and many other colleges and universities around the country.

    MEChA and the La Raza movement teach that Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington State make up an area known as "Aztlan" -- a fictional ancestral homeland of the Aztecs before Europeans arrived in North America. As such, it belongs to the followers of MEChA. These are all areas America should surrender to "La Raza" once enough immigrants, legal or illegal, enter to claim a majority, as in Los Angeles. The current borders of the United States will simply be extinguished.

    This plan is what is referred to as the "Reconquista" or reconquest, of the Western U.S.

    But it won't end with territorial occupation and secession. The final plan for the La Raza movement includes the ethnic cleansing of Americans of European, African, and Asian descent out of "Aztlan."

    As Miguel Perez of Cal State-Northridge's MEChA chapter has been quoted as saying: "The ultimate ideology is the liberation of Aztlan. Communism would be closest [to it]. Once Aztlan is established, ethnic cleansing would commence: Non-Chicanos would have to be expelled -- opposition groups would be quashed because you have to keep power."

    Full Article here... and there is a lot more to La"Raza and MECHA then you know...

    This is what I call gettin out the vote... Amnesty through Executive Order, I wonder who that was pandered to? … s-ignores/

  30. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    Mason is full of garbage, as usual...

    I've done the same reading as Mason, and I came to the same conclusions as he did....and then I turned from readings to actual interaction...

    If one looks, like Mason, to things like the "Spiritual Plan of Aztlan" in a vaccuum they might appear dangerous....  But when placed (as should be) in the socio-political environment they were created within the context becomes clear..

    Back when "La Raza" was being founded, "White Power" and white supremacy in the United States was the norm....

    Until the 1970's, Latino's continued to be marginalized in American society....  The Civil Rights reforms of the 1960's hadn't included them...

    After serving in World War 2 (and other American wars) Latino-Americans were still denied access to education, veterans benefits, and decent jobs...

    They still suffered from segregation... 

    In many ways, things have not changed...

    Those who wish to follow Misguided Mason are free to do so.... 

    But his wayward band has no more truth than George W. Bush's claims of Iraqi WMD's being the cause for war in Iraq...

    Mason and his ilk look to exaggerate the "Latin threat" while minimizing the Anglo power structure that created the inequalities in the first place...

    Thanks for the ongoing fear/smear tactics, Mason.... You should use the Glenn Beck blackboards and marionettes next..

    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yes... their own site would not be biased eh?

      That's okay, read the propaganda and decide for yourselves.

      Keep La Raza Strong & Always Stay True To Our People !!  Es La Verdad, En La Union Esta La Fuerza !!! We are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan. -"For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada."-

      "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."

      The second video on this first site is very peace-loving and all American. … in-the-us/

    2. American View profile image60
      American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      THere Were WMDs in Iraq

  31. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 12 years ago

    Free trade. US agribusiness floods Mexico with cheap American produce, putting all the local Mexican farmers out of business so they turn to drug dealing and exigration.

  32. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    Won't get no argument from me about ceasing all free trade, it ain't free for America, and localizing out trade by a few less nations.

    Mexico can have their farmers back, we have our own to handle growig for us.... since we can cease all susidies for all areas of Commerce, Agriculture, and Energy. So those farmers will be able to sell their own goods nice and cheap right here instead of china or somewhere else. I am done with it, tear up the contracts.

  33. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago show the same graphic that I used to tout...

    And its nonsense...which is why I can call you out on it... I know too well the huge fallacies and flaws in your thinking...

    The difference between you and I is that I challenged these conceptions....I didn't just continue in my little bubble...  Once confronted, I found that the generalizations used to support them were false...

    Mexico can have their farmers back?

    What do you mean, Mason...they have served as the backbone of our agricultural industry for over a century...  It was the Bracero Programs that put Mexicans into American factories and farms (for nothing) while Americans (including those of Mexican descent) fought overseas...

    Just as the Mexican American GI's received nothing for their service, the Bracero's "earned" a quick kick across the border... … qdO4Qpbwvg

    Your statements regarding the agricultural demands of American business and commerce shows that you have little understanding of the relations between the U.S. and Mexico...(but now you'll run off to the googles and try to grab something that makes you seem knowledgeable...too late!)

    You can keep attempting to spread your delusion....Perhaps Fox Schmooz will put you in to the empty slot vacated by Herr Beck....

    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      My understanding of Mexican-American relations is just fine.

      And it proves correct every time I watch them all in the streets demanding we ignore our laws, and allow them all to have amnesty, once again. No way!

      The fact is you can sling around all the boo-hoo stories you want about how they were treated, a lot of Americans have suffered at the hands of Spanish/Mexicans also. It is not a one-sided history in the least, Mike. And your willingness to just sling it all onto one side speaks volumes about your lack of knowledge on the subject.

      As for the Mexicans being the back-bone of our Agriculture, that should have changed decades ago, every other industry has mechanized, Agriculture can also. And they have already recieved amnesty under reagan, and that is enough. There is no need to be under-cutting the wage system by hiring illegals, no need to be taking advantage of illegals because they are illegal, because they won't be here.

      There is no valid reason for us to absorb millions of people who are not loyal to this nation, and out-right state they will not assimilate nor swear allegience to this nation, just to let the relatively few who would, become Americans.  None!...

      And La'raza is a racist, anti-American, revolutionary group, which seeks the over-throw of this nation's Govt..

      And that is a fact... and one of those pieces of evidence for not paying any Leftist groups any more moneys for funding, and for keeping all the monies of the Socialist Liberal Democrat Progressive political machine, under the 14th amendment.

      We should be moving to strip the entire Left and Progressive Right from money and power. -"But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States,"- not one of them should get another dime.

      Including "La'Raza"..."The Race", NOT what-ever we want it to mean..

      Here is the Aztlan site... have a nice read...

      And inthis one below notice the chants of Aztlan, between the NAZI and RACIST screeches. Yes, a bunch of loving people there. … interview/

      "As an educator, I refused to be complicit in a curriculum that engendered racial hostility, irresponsibly demeaned America's civil institutions, undermined our public servants, discounted any virtues in Western civilization and taught disdain for American sovereignty." - John Ward, former teacher at Tucson High Magnet School, as regards Mexican/Raza Studies.

      Continue reading on La Raza curriculum: Arizona teachers suing to restore racist program - National Law Enforcement- … st-program

      You all need to wake up... there are people in this world, and yes in this country itself... who truly hate America and seek to change it fundamentally to a Socialist non-American system.

      And if they suceed... God help the entire world, because America will not be there to stop the next evil that arises, and there are many evils on the rise right now.

      But maybe this world deserves just that... hmm

    2. American View profile image60
      American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I have been reading the threads between you and TMM. I have my opinion from first hand accounts as well. You said
      And its nonsense...which is why I can call you out on it... I know too well the huge fallacies and flaws in your thinking...

      The difference between you and I is that I challenged these conceptions"

      OK why can you call him out, how did you challengs it.?

      1. Doug Hughes profile image60
        Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Just a minute-

        You are asking Mike for an explanation?

        I asked you days ago to source the 'quote' from Sperling that's the basis of the OP ('2.2 Trillion in Waiting').


        1. American View profile image60
          American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I gave it to you but as usual, because it will show you wrong, you refused to do it.


          GET A LIFE

          1. Doug Hughes profile image60
            Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Excuse me... if I am wrong, provide a source for the fictitious quote of Gene Sperling you wrote in the OP of '2.2 Trillion in Waiting'. Anyone who reads the first screen will see I questioned it at once.

            Put up a source or go crawl back under your rock.

            1. American View profile image60
              American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this


              I went back and counted, so for the now 4th time and final time.
              I saw itin an interview on CNN. I went back to verify what I saw after I first heard from you. I told you another source was the interview is available in their transscrips. You just choose ot either ignore it or lie about not finding it because it shows that once again you were wrong. And
              you knew you were from the start by trying to twist it by saying it was money that corperations were sitting on, which everyone but you I guess, knows that is not money Congress has access to for spending.

              1. Doug Hughes profile image60
                Doug Hughesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I have BEEN to CNN.

                I have SEARCHED for the fictitious transcript.

                It does not exist. IMO, a hubber who makes up lies and posts them as facts is the lowest kind of scoundrel. This is not a difference of opinion. It's the discovery of deliberate fraud.

                1. American View profile image60
                  American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  If you had been to CNN, you would have seen that  TRANSCRIPTS for all shows is there to be seen. It is not  "fictitious"  It is obvious you have not looked or you would:

                  !. Have known that page exists
                  2. Would have known the name of the show
                  3. Would have had no problem in finding it

                  "hubber who makes up lies and posts them as facts is the lowest kind of scoundrel. This is not a difference of opinion. It's the discovery of deliberate fraud."
                  You are right about that, the discovery, though we already knew it, was you

                2. American View profile image60
                  American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this


                  Since you SAY you are having so much trouble finding the "fictitious transcript" and sying I was making it up. So in the interest of giving you the benefit of the doubt in case you did try and look even though I said you did not. So heres what happened:
                  1. I went to
                  2. In the search box I put the following criteria-spirling interview.
                  3. The result was BINGO THERE IT WAS FOR ALL THE WORLD TO SEE
                  Seemed real easy to me,. So it leads one to the conclusion that you did not look. So in the interest of showing everyone here you make up information, twist it around, and attack when you are wrong, like you did me, I will copy and paste some of the interview here. I do not want to paste the whole interview as it is long. In addition to make it even easier for you, I uppercased where Spirling says it. And so you do not say I just wrote it and made it all up I will even give you the link. So after you chow down on some more crow, I ask again, Will you man up? I know you will not. I am actually lokking forward to seeing how you will try to twist this one but I suspect you will not respond. Here we go:

         … sa.01.html

                  YELLIN: So, Republican leaders in Congress say they simply don't have the votes to pass a deal to raise the debt ceiling. They're not being stubborn, they don't have the votes. Mitch McConnell invited the president to come and meet with Republicans. And the press secretary said not even worth the conversation.

                  Why not? Why doesn't the president just go there and take the meeting, take every meeting he can with Republicans?

                  GENE SPERLING, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: First of all, all this president has been asking for is an honorable compromise. The same type of balance we've seen in bipartisan deficit reduction agreements since the early '80s, which includes putting everything on the table.

                  And what the president is saying very clearly is that you can't have deficit reduction where you're putting all the burden on seniors and the middle class, and then saying that those who get the most egregious special interest tax cuts are those who are most fortunate in our society have to bear no burden in recovering from this financial crisis, strengthening our economy and getting the investment and job growth back we need. All of us need to be in this together. And the president is simply asking we have that type of balance and compromise that I think the country very much wants to see.

                  YELLIN: Part of this has to be politic. I mean, it feels like there's political posturing going on right now. And if this is as dire as the White House says it is, and as it would seem the capital markets are suggesting it is, why not just give the Republicans what they want? Why not just cave and say, "You know what? You want only cuts, fine. To save America and save the economy, we'll give you cuts, we'll raise the debt ceiling, and we'll fight another day on the other issues that matter to Democrats"?

                  SPERLING: Let's be clear. This president is willing to do historic levels of spending cuts and efficiencies to help bring our deficit down. As somebody who is involved with the negotiations with the vice president and Eric Cantor and others, anybody in that room will tell you, we were making significant progress on spending cuts across the board.

                  So, the president is willing to do quite a lot on reducing spending, but in order to show a seriousness, in order to show we're all in this together, in order to get the votes you need from both Democrats and Republicans to pass and the House and Senate, you have to have a sense of balance and shared sacrifice.

                  YELLIN: Why did the talks break down? Eric Cantor walked away, why, in your view?

                  Well, I think they were very serious and I think there is enormous amount of progress. But I think there was a recognition that at some point, leaders have to work with the president on the overall contours of what that bipartisan deficit reduction agreement will be.

                  And, yes, you probably will see politics as always in things. But there's no doubt where the president's focus is. He wants to get this done. He wants serious talks, serious negotiations. Whether that is one-on-one meetings, shuttle diplomacy, phone calls, where there's a serious discussion to be had on finding a bipartisan agreement, that is our 100 percent focus.

                  YELLIN: As somebody who's been involved with the negotiations, you know how much those sort of one-to-one relations matter. The president took a different tone yesterday, much more combative. How does tweaking essentially the Republican leadership help the negotiation process?

                  SPERLING: What the president was trying to do was really bring people back to the table. We were having a serious discussion. I think -- and I think there was --

                  YELLIN: By saying they are not on the level?

                  SPERLING: By having great trust. I think what the president said is, as people left, they were trying to cast aspersions of his involvement as opposed to just working out our differences.

                  Look, this president, as you know, put forward a call for a bipartisan negotiation only five days after this year's budget was finished. Then, a week later, he called together the eight top leaders and set up a bipartisan negotiation with the vice president in charge. And he has monitored that and given those of us in the negotiating table instruction on a day by day level. He's met one-on- one with the leadership. He's brought all the caucuses down to Washington, I mean, down to the White House to hear them out, get their views.

                  So, this president is going the extra mile and will continue to go the extra mile. But I think what he was saying yesterday at the press conference was, come on, guys, you know, it's time to come back to the table. I can I can throw a brush package, too. But that's not going to help.

                  What helps all of us is to come back to the table, get serious and get a balanced deficit reduction plan that will help us get this economy going, get confidence in investment and long-term job creation. And give a lot of members of Congress the comfort they need to ensure our country does not default for the first time in our history and forever tarnish our credit rating.

                  YELLIN: Let's look at the broader economy for a minute. There is talk not much can be done to spur job growth. But we heard the president say Congress does have tools at its disposal. Would you point to one thing Congress could do when it comes back from vacation?

                  SPERLING: YES. I'LL GIVE YOU TWO EXAMPLES, WHICH IS ONE, WE HAVE $2 TRILLION SITTING ON THE SIDELINE IN OUR ECONOMY RIGHT NOW. If we could give those companies, those investors the confidence that American can work past its divisions and get its house in order, I have no question that will increase more confidence in people making long-term investments, which means more construction, more job creation here in the United States.

                  And, secondly, you can do a deficit reduction package the smart way, that is phase in and that has something like the payroll tax cut, which puts $1,000 in the pockets of average families, which can help not only with them to face the strains of higher food and energy prices, but it means more spending and it can give an extra kicker of growth to help this economy grow together.

                  So, a strong deficit reduction, a bipartisan plan that included something like the payroll tax cut is exactly the right type of recipe to restore confidence, get more investment and job creation and put a little bit more spending and demand in the economy and help out many hard-pressed working families at the same time.

                  YELLIN: These are measures that largely Democrats support and Republicans don't?

                  SPERLING: That is actually not the case. I think one of the reasons we were able to have our bipartisan agreement in December, which has helped our economy face enormous headwinds it has was that the president actually looked for proposals where we thought there'd be bipartisan agreements.

                  So, the payroll tax cut had been supported by both Democrats and Republicans. The idea of giving people 100 percent expensing, which is a great encouragement for people to invest in the U.S. and invest now were both things this president and his economic team felt were good economic policy that could help with job growth but were also measures that we saw Republicans had support e supported.

                  YELLIN: In the past?

                  SPERLING: That's the type of bipartisan compromise that we need to move our country forward.

                  1. Quilligrapher profile image74
                    Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                    Thank you, AV, for posting this link to the original interview with Mr. Sperling referenced in another thread.

        2. American View profile image60
          American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          By the way, I am asking him for what makes him not believe what he read anymoe. He said he once believed it. So as I have looked up TMMs sources, and my firsy hand experiences here in Texas, it is a good request, And those were his own words, he use to believe. I am interested in why he sees it different. His answer may make me change my mind about where I stand.  At least Mike is not making things up like you do. You should learn from him

  34. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    You are delusional, as usual...

    It is as simple as that Herr Mason...

    Oh well.....  When one is so wrapped into their warped worldview (Mason and his ilk) there is little that can be done to change their views....

    It would pay for you to read "One Dimensional Man", Mason.... 

    Number 1) Automation cannot be used universally..

    2) Automation is actually a threat, in many ways, to humanity...

    3) Technological advances and human advancement are often at opposite ends of this relationship....the former is often times harmful to the latter....

    You continue to hide from your national responsibilities Mason....and you continue to hide from your own national history....

    Many Americans suffer from this same problem: an absence of historical knowledge and perspective...

    You can claim to know it all, Mason....but your poor ideas (like the one criticized above) compounded by your minimalization of the Mexican American plight in this nation (and the exploitive treatment of Mexican citizens by this nation) speak far louder...

    The only one fooled here is you...

    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You can think and state as you want, bro... doesn't matter to me. I will put out my info and sources, -(their own sites and words, which you so casually dismiss)-, and you yours, and anyone can make up their own minds.

      Simple as that...

    2. American View profile image60
      American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this


      Before I get to it, let me just say I disagree with several points you made in this last post. Now I have to admit I have not read "One Dimensional Man. Despite that I believe that 1- Automation is used worldwide, 2- that automation is not a threat to humanity, Terminator was just a movie, 3- Technological advances have made mankind better and provided a better environment to be productive in. All one needs to do is look around and can see the advances and their benefits. Just think if Edison did not invent the light bulb, or NASA did not invent the Microwave oven, or if the combustion engine was never invented. Technology allowed for that and much more

      I left my post not as a challenge to you as Doug likes to do, but as for information. Since you have left 5 posts since my request I guess you ignored it for some reason. So I do not know why you have changed you mind to all the writings and actual claims that come from the organizations own website and public statements. I do admit, NCLR has done some good health, housing, education, workforce development, and youth leadership. But just as they have done some good they have also done things that are not so good. So did Sadam Hussain. He did some good for Iraq but he also did a lot that did not benefit his citizens on any level.
      Having said they have done some good does not mean they do everything good. While some think they promote Illegal immigration, I have never seen anything to make me think the promote it. They do however support illegal immigrant who are here. They help in every area but one, helping them go to the local immigration office and get legal status. I am not saying they have to become a citizen, that is their choice. But being legal by getting a green card would change their status from illegal to legal. No more hiding, living a false life, no more having to get phony identification, they can be themselves. I mean an illegal spends a lot of time and money on getting phony identification. They would spend way less time filling out an application for green card.
      But the disturbing part to their organization is their creed; "For Our Race All, For All Others Nothing!" They truly act and live by that motto. Here in Dallas, they push that agenda to its fullest. First every major construction public project that comes about, they pressure those entities to award contracts to Hispanic companies. If they are not sure that may happen, they begin major boycotts, demonstrations, intimidation, and drag each project into court to try and get their way. Now, if they were calling for all minority companies get some of the contracts, I could see their point, though I do not agree with it. But they only push for themselves and have fought that they are the ONLY minority to get contracts. Like the Black Panthers, they show up on election day to try and block access to polling places. But I will say they are not armed, unlike the Black Panthers. They also bus many people to the polling places to cast votes. After elections are over and in some cases of recounts, there were numerous fraudulent Hispanic votes. In the Dallas school district, they showed up to every board meeting protesting and pushing their agenda. Finally they Superintendant resigned. While a search for a replacement was going on NCLR was pushing very strong for a Hispanic superintendent. The district bowed to them. There were 2 Hispanic superintendents in a row. Both resigned in disgrace amid corruption charges resulting in one being sentenced to jail time. But during their tenures, they strong pushed for a different curriculum much more in line with their beliefs. This is only a few items of their radical side.
      I guess the reason I wrote this was to show that both you and TMM are right, but you both are also wrong. This is happens often with topics like this.

  35. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago


    It's just too bad one of us (you) chooses to mislead and misguide at every chance...

  36. Jonathan Janco profile image60
    Jonathan Jancoposted 12 years ago

    Debt is all imaginary, anyway. But if you think that us as individuals have no power against the dark spirit/slave master that protrudes into our dimension as 'money', think again. … adid=42875

    Mr.Daly argued that the Mortgage contact required that both parties place up collateral/real consideration for this agreement of finance .

    Simply,the bank had not fullfilled/maintained/upheld it's part of the requirement for real consideration and the Mortgage contract in whole, for the reason that the "money" was not the "real" property of the Bank ,as it was created "out of nothing" as soon as the loan agreement was signed, by ledger entry.

  37. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    Mike, if you find their own words confusing, then that is a personal issue.

    The rest of us can read and hear them speak for ourselves, and deterrmine if what you say about them is true.

    Or whether we should take them at their own word on it?

  38. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    Those "nasty" MEChIstas in action..

  39. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago


    Any of the words found within the Plan de Aztlan only exist because of this type of treatment: … n17184253/ … iYf6tfkONQ

    Those who ignore or minimize the impact of the past on the present and future are fools...

    Identity formation is key.....and there definitely was an indoctrinated, institutionalized superiority complex engrained in the psyche of the dominant "white" population...  This has not ebbed...  The fact that so many of the same nonsensical generalizations and stereotypes are used still today demonstrates how heavy the influence of the past has held...

    But, the dark forces of racim and historical fantasy over fact are still at work trying to alter reality... … 00560.html

  40. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    Regarding the original topic...

    The "end" will not come...

    However, there is a desperate need (as we can all agree) to curb spending, or to generate revenue that diminishes deficit spending..

    The connection between greater automation, job exportation and increased unemployment is often discussed, but (at least in terms of the supposed "main stream media") rarely discussed at length or with the brevity it deserves...

  41. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    Mike as I said, I will take their word for it, and you can believe your own story all you want.

    And as I also said, there is a lot more to history then one side of the story, whether it is your side, or their side... or the truth.

    And I am not worried about the rise of the ATMs and their evil brethren.

  42. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    I didn't see you question....

    Having seen it now, I am trying to understand what you are meaning...

    Why can I call Mason out?

    Because I can.  Am I misinterpreting the first part of your question?

    As for the second...

    Are you asking "how do you challenge conceptions?

    If this is correct, I am assuming that you are asking "how does a person challence their conceptions (or how I do it)?"

    Regarding Chicano Studies....I used to be a very harsh critic of the courses and major field... Supporting my views was the racism that I was around.... 

    I decided to start taking Chicano Studies courses....  While I was able to find some problems, what I noticed was that the curriculum was not off-base...the classes were of great worth, but sometimes there were professors who more interested in earning a paycheck than teaching to the best of their abilities (but I have found this in each major field I have studied)..

    As for MEChA, I decided to understand the inner workings of this organization..  With the Spiritual Plan of Aztlan in my hand, I proceeded to hound the Chicano Studies professors/MEChA faculty sponsors concerning this "dangerous" document... 

    Understanding perspective is key....

    By placing this document, and MEChA formation as a whole, in its proper historical context, the "dangerous"ness of it fades, however.  Instead, one sees ideas intended to give people a source of pride in themselves where before it was mainly shame...  This shame is the result of living in a society that repeatedly tells people that they are not wanted, that they are unimportant, and that their identities are worthless...

    This is the history of this American nation towards its original inhabitants, whether Native American or "Mexican"...

    I was able to compare different MEChA's to one another as well....from Mission College and Cal State Northridge to UCLA...  Instead of the group that Mason tries to depict through his nonsensical posts, I found young men and women who are just trying to make it through college...mostly first generation college students, these youth face and overcome enormous odds to find success...  But, they are also dedicated to making sure that those younger than them are able to have access to the same opportunities...

    I met more and more people, I conducted all manner of interviews with supporters and opponents, and I came to my ultimate conclusion after all of my research was complete...

    Mind you, I didn't do any of this for a class, or for a grade... I simply wanted to know who this "MEChA" was, what "Chicana/o" meant, and what type of threat it posed to my "America"...

    My preconceptions were wrong...I had to come to terms with that...  Mr. Samuel Huntington and others like Mason can demonize, but they are wrong...  Mason can always head out to Los Angeles, the epicenter of all of this, and I can prove my case beyond a reasonable doubt...

    But I'm not expecting any visitors on this regard any time soon...

    As for automation....

    Again, it is not always a good thing...and in many ways it is harmful as opposed to neutral...

    Putting people out of work for the sake of "efficiency" and enhanced profit is harmful, especially in the day and age we live in... We have a larger population (in this nation alone) than there ever has been since man has walked the earth...and yet the multitude of jobs that existed... Greater mechanization and automation leave more and more people out, and increase the disparity between "white collar" and "blue collar" workers...with the latter being squeezed out while the former becomes bloated...

    There is no wonder then why unemployment is so high, and why it isn't subsiding... 

    As higher education overall becomes less valuable (because there aren't enough jobs requiring it and more jobs requiring an even higher degree level that many cannot afford to pursue), there are less jobs for everyone else...

    There are those who simply ignore the human cost of automation....but this is to the detriment and peril of us all.. 

    "There are centrifugal tendencies, from within and from without. One of them is inherent in technical progress itself, namely automation. I suggested thtat expanding automation is more than quantitative growth of mechanization-that it is a change in the character of the basic productive forces. It seems that automation to the limits of technical possibility is incompatible with a society based on the private exploitation of human labor power in the process of production...."

    "Automation in its largest sense, means in effect the end of the measurement of work...With automation, you can't measure the output of a single man; you now have to measure simply equipment utilization. If that is generalized as a kind of concept...there is no longer, for example, any reason at all to pay a man by the piece or pay him by the hour," that is to say, there is no more reason to keep up the "dual pay system" of salaries and wages" <--Daniel Bell (but cited within "One Dimensional Man")..he continues "industrialization did not arise with the introduction of factories, it "arose out of the measurement of work. It's when work can be measured, when you can hitch a man to the job, when you can put a harness on him, and measure his output in terms of a single piece and pay him by the piece or by the hour, that you have got modern industrialisation"...

    "The machine process in the technological universe breaks the innermost privacy of freedom, and joins sexuality and labor in one unconscious, rhythmic automatism-a process which parallels the assimilation of jobs."

    We have to find ways of putting people to work.....not out of work...

    This is a key aspect in America's decline....and I don't see anything happening to address it... 

    This is to the detriment of all of us...

    1. American View profile image60
      American Viewposted 12 years agoin reply to this


      You understood what I was looking for. I was looking for your life experience for this issue. Where I came from growing up in NY in the bronx,
      a "Chicano" was a Puerta Rican. I to had many wrong conceptions, My job made me lose them in the first few weeks I was there. I was a NY firefighter for 15 years. I realized we all bleed, get hurt, die the same. Fire is the only non discrimintory killer there is. It does not care what you are.

      But despite my change, many others do not. I do not believe anything I read or am told. I have to research it or see it first hand. As with NCLR, I have seen the good they do and their dark side as it were. Do not get roped into believing only 1/2 the story. THats  why I said you and TMM were both right and both wrong

      As for automation, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I do not see automation costing 400,000 jobs per week. There are many other issues as to why this is occuring. One example is shipping jobs to other countries. Again,thats only one.
      For one example of how automation puts people to work. How about the auto industry. At one time they couls turn a car in a few hours, today they can do 1 car in 16 minutes. So automation may have cost some jobs on the line, but due to the new volume, there was a major need for salesman, auot Mechanics, companies that supplied parts for the cars like tires, Real Estats and construction to build all the new dealerships needed to sell the product, etc. This is only one example. Like I said we agree to disagree Thanks for the response

  43. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    So you can fear monger tech and automation in defense of illegals keeping thier jobs which they have illegally.... but I cannot point to their own words and say they are true...

    What-ever. hmm

  44. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    Lets look at what some of those college sites say, and what the constitutions of those Orgs. say.

    Of course we have to look a lil earlier in the years then 2011, they, the sites, having been scrubbed... the Constitutions still speak the same things... but lets go to 2007... before the spotlight fell on them...

    ---"The Stanford MEChA website contains El Plan Espiritual de Santa Barbara, effectively endorsing it. The Plan degrades those who identify as MexicanAmerican or Hispanic, defining either as “a person who lacks selfrespect and pride in one’s ethnic and cultural background.”

    The Plan links capitalism and non-Hispanics and rejects both “the ethic of profit and competition, of greed which the Anglo society offers must be replaced by our ancestral communalism and love for beauty and justice.”

    The Plan condemns blending of cultures because it claims society attempts “to dilute varied cultures into a gray upon gray pseudoculture of technology and materialism.”

    Laying out expectations of discrimination, The Plan states that, “one can always expect some retribution or retaliation for gains made by the Chicano, be it in the form of legal cations [sic] or merely economic sanction on campus.”

    It also advocates its own speech to the extent that university presses “be forced to accept barrio works for publication.”

    Stanford MEChA denies being influenced by El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán. Cendejas called it “a document of purely historical and academic value.” However, its constitution requires members to learn about it and many other chapters of MEChA, including Cal’s, have the document on their website.

    El Plan de Aztlán is infamous for the italicized line “Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada.” The standard translation is “For the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing.”
    Godinez-Aviña, in response to recent media comparisons of MEChA to Nazis, said, “Basically, we’re not a Nazi organization.”

    Nevertheless, other rhetoric in the document is reminiscent of racial supremacist groups, including the proclamation that “we are a bronze people with a bronze culture–before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation–we are Aztlán.”

    With a focus on nationalism that borders on lawlessness, especially regarding the involvement of minors, El Plan states that “for the very young there will no longer be acts of juvenile delinquency, but revolutionary acts.” Integrated within a total “revolutionary culture.” In doing so, “where we are a majority, we will control,” as “La Familia de La Raza [family of the race].”
    Ultimately, it declares separatism a goal of “a nation autonomous and free – culturally, socially, economically, and politically.”

    The Philosophy of MEChA, last revised in 1999, echoes and reaffirms the separatist sentiments of El Plan Espiritual de Aztlán and El Plan Espiritual de Santa Barbara as “fundamental to the MEChA Philosophy.” It notes that “Aztlán belongs to indigenous people, who are sovereign and not subject to a foreign culture–we are a union of free pueblos forming a bronze (Chicana/Chicano) Nation.”

    The Philosophy mentions claims of “indigenous unity” with the people of Ixachitzlan, which it defines as “Alaska to Tierra del Fuego.” The document also adopts a revolutionary tone, promising “a spirit of unity by comradismo/carnalismo,” and exclaiming “Tierra y Libertad [Land and Liberty!].”

    Despite the litany of disturbing governing doctrines, MEChA touts certain accomplishments. Cendejas declares, “Our [MEChA’s] mission is found in our work.” He lists recent accomplishments as “lobbying for the extension of health benefits to agricultural workers of Webb Ranch,” supporting the antiwar effort in Iraq on campus, and assisting with a Cesar Chavez Commemoration event and the Raza [Race] Day Youth Educational Conference.
    MEChA also provides an alternative to Columbus Day. Godinez-Aviña announced at the general meeting that “we celebrate indigenous people’s day to counter that wack a** holiday.” They have plans to meet with other indigenous groups in the early morning hours to perform indigenous rituals.

    The ASSU funds this organization, providing an influx of tuition dollars. Treasurer Susana Esparza told MEChA members “we have a pretty big budget with the university.”
    According to the ASSU fee refund form, every undergraduate contributes $2.27 per quarter to MEChA in special fees. Other sources of funding are unclear. Dean of El Centro Chicano Frances Morales would not comment as to the financial nature of the relationship between El Centro Chicano and MEChA except to say that MEChA uses ASSU student fees to help with some programs.

    According to Morales, El Centro Chicano does provide “[a] mailbox, access to computer cluster and copier, [and] meeting space” to MEChA.

    MEChA’s symbol is an Eagle with a macahuittle, a weapon used by the indigenous people in Mexico against the conquistadors, in one talon and a lighted stick of dynamite in the other, with the fuse in its beak. MEChA’s motto is “La union hace la fuerza [in unity, strength].” It’s time for Stanford MEChA to rethink with whom it wants to unite."---

    C.a.r.d {Citizens Against Racism and Discrimination} Source: The Stanford Review … hin-mecha/

    Communalism eh?...

  45. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    How many Mechistas have you met, Mason?

    How many MEChA events have you visited?

    In terms of what the constitutions of these organizations say, what is the larger historical context they were written within?

    This is key...

    But you won't address this issue....

    I began my research of MEChA back in 2005....long before "the spotlight" you mention "fell on them"... (as if they are something new)

    MEChA itself has been around since the 1960's....which makes your "unknown/hidden menace" concept look foolish...  (regarding your ridiculous "before the spotlight fell on them" remark)

    Now, with this said, let us then compare the socio-political-economic condition of the Latino community in this nation... … ory_of_the … egregation

    There is the reality that then sets up future actions...

    Mason wants his readers to look upon his information in a if this stuff just popped up one day because "these people" just "hate America"....

    However, he decides to leave the reader unaware of the larger environment all of this was forming within...

    Many of the deeds for homes here in the San Fernando Valley (the older homes of course) still have their "sell only to Anglos" stipulation written in black and white...

    The "Plan" does not degrade Mexican Americans.....but rather it was framed within an era when larger American society degraded them...  And this hasn't changed.... 

    The Plan recognizes that there overwhelmingly has been a historical link between capitalism and non-Hispanic success while Hispanics have lost out...

    Not only did Mexicans lose a large percentage of their nation...they lost some of the most valuable assets.. (The United States would be a shadow of its current self without the Pacific seaboard alone)

    As witnessed through the Porfiriato, there was a deep connection between European-descendents (both the European rulers of Mexico and the European descended Americans) that worked to the detriment of both the American indigenous population, as well as the Mexican indigenous population...

    While the United States' was based on European settler-colonies, Mexico and the former Spanish colonies still overwhelmingly have native populations lorded over by a tiny European elite...

    The Plan does not, as Mason states, "lay out expectations of discrimination", rather it recognized the discrimination that was actively taking place....

    Redlining, for example, did not become illegal until the Carter Administration...and it was used rampantly against Latinos and other "unwanted" minority populations...

    In terms of any group association, it pays to understand the roots of an organization...  To have MEChA members read and understand the Plan of Aztlan fits within this concept perfectly...

    Mason can continue with his scare tactics and conspiracy nonsense, but that is to his own detriment...

    MEChA was founded over 40 years ago...and it has provided an outlet for creativity, empowerment, and success for several generations...

    They are not one is, individually or collectively...

    But, to do as Mason does, and to maximize the perception of "foreign threat" while minimizing historical context is reckless and points to a mentality that thinks only to justify its backward theme regardless of what the truth is...

    Then again, Mason's avatar McCarthy did the same type of ridiculous thing....

    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It is simple Mike... all the info I have stated is in their own documents... people should simply go read them.

      Not take my word for it... or yours.

      They can read it, and see, for themselves.


      "We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks which are justly called for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlán belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent"

      Straight from their own moths...

      ---"Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner "gabacho" who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlán."---

      "For La Raza to do. Fuera de La Raza nada."

      Again right from their own site, here is their founding documents...

      Their own site.

      ---"Nationalism as the key to organization transcends all religious, political, class, and economic factions or boundaries. Nationalism is the common denominator that all members of La Raza can agree upon."---

      And what nation would that loyalty be to?...

      ---"2-ECONOMY: economic control of our lives and our communities can only come about by driving the exploiter out of our communities, our pueblos, and our lands and by controlling and developing our own talents, sweat, and resources. Cultural background and values which ignore materialism and embrace humanism will contribute to the act of cooperative buying and the distribution of resources and production to sustain an economic base for healthy growth and development Lands rightfully ours will be fought for and defended. Land and realty ownership will be acquired by the community for the people's welfare. Economic ties of responsibility must be secured by nationalism and the Chicano defense units."---

      Yes very peaceful sounding plan... and there is so very much more... in their own words and in their own documents.

      The key is this is their objective... their priciple and goals... that is the key mike. Not trying to dismiss the threat it represents because it is now 2011.

      That is assinine... these ideal and objectives have not been set aside by some new generation of peace-nik hippies. These individuals and Orgs truely believe we stole that land and they want it back. They have been taught that BS by our own schools, and they embrace it today as whole-heartedly as they did the day it was penned.

      Too bad.

      1. Quilligrapher profile image74
        Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

        Hi Tom. I tend to share your concerns about small pockets of dissatisfaction at all levels of American society including the ultraconservatives sandwiched between the "Leant Left Commies" and the "Liberal-Progressives." I just don’t see the point of exaggerating the threat each of them poses to the federal government.   
        Nor do I totally agree with those who think the U.S. stole the western territories from Mexico. But I do believe President Andrew Jackson, an old friend of Sam Houston, aided and abetted an armed insurrection by predominately Anglo-American settlers who had claimed land under Mexico’s General Colonization Law of 1824 within the State of Coahuila y Tejas. Later, President Tylor, annexed the disputed Republic of Texas by a joint resolution of Congress instead of by a treaty with the Mexican Government. Then, President Polk sent troops under General Zachary Taylor into the disputed Texan territory north of the Rio Grande River provoking an attack by Mexico that launched the Mexican-American War. The 19th Century was a time of blatant American expansionism that ultimately absorbed California, Oregon, and Alaska.
        There’s bound to be some folk who believe their ancestors got a raw deal.

        1. TMMason profile image60
          TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          My point is simply Mexico was not blameless either, quill. I understand the history, there is always two sides and then the truth.

          And I agree one of these groups would not constitute a serious threat.

          But... the Left wing has become a conglomerate of these groups, and they have infitrated to high places in our Govt., and Social Institutions, and preach this hate and Anti-American BS to kids, and in doing so, and allowing the infitration of these groups into our institutions, they allow the perpetuation of this hate for generations.

          1. lovemychris profile image76
            lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It is not hate to stand up to tyranny.
            You act like people should roll oved and play dead because your people want something they have.

            It's hate to kill people for land, that's what I think.
            It's hate to force your values down another's throat.
            And it's hate to forbid a people from being who they are.

            All these we did, and you see nothing to call hate about it.
            Yet, people who stand up to it and fight back are always called haters.

            You're attitude is like the King of England during the American fight for freedom.

            "I'm in charge. "
            "I own you."
            "You do as I say."
            And should you dare to shall be labeled a rebel and an insurgent and an enemy."

            Hating evil is Love.
            Loving evil is Hate. Think about it.

            1. TMMason profile image60
              TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

              What are you in a blather about now?

              We, the United States Of Ameica, own the South-West.

              Too bad.

              And I will not apologize for how we got it, either. That is the way it was back then... get over it and move on. Damn you leftists are so anal... OCD or what.

          2. Quilligrapher profile image74
            Quilligrapherposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Whether a part of the left wing or among those on the right, whether they be conservatives or “pinkos”, if they are American citizens they have the right to mobilize with the intent to influence U.S. political and social policy.  They are entitled to serve in our government and social institutions. They are exactly the same as you and me only they see America from another perspective. It is not subversive or un-American to disagree with the majority or to be a member of a minority that has another vision of how the country should be run. The challenge is to blend their ideals with our own to the betterment of all and to eradicate the notion that, fearing their ideas, we want to eliminate them.

  46. Moderndayslave profile image60
    Moderndayslaveposted 12 years ago
    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Won't get no argument from me, it was all a managed decline of the American economy, MDS. Been going on for decades, and in the plans for almost a century.

      I think we both know we agree on that.

      And I agree they all should be arrested and their assets siezed, Govt Officials, Politicians, Wall Street, unions, and Party Officials, and all debts incurred during this conspiracy against our nation, this attack, should be reviewed thoroughly, to see which should be honored, and which should be cast aside as ill concieved and criminally aspired to.

      The Thieves, Liars, and criminals, have sold us, all and everything, to the traitors and their masters.

  47. lovemychris profile image76
    lovemychrisposted 12 years ago

    It's called human. And we remember what is was like when more people were.

    1. TMMason profile image60
      TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this



      Yes we remember... we don't become froze with fear of carrying on, or anal to the point of braking our mational spirit ovber some false guilt, as if no but America acted in that way.

      We do not spend years and generations impressing hate into the minds of our kids against our Govt, and saying they should be overthrown and land taken from our own countrry... that is what we do not do.

      We remember... Yes we do... that all the world has acted in babaric ways toward one another for reasons as ignorant as race, and as complex as international politics, all throughout the history of Man's societies.

      And we remember.... many still do to in this day... China, Cuba, N.Korea, the Islamic nations, and that we should always be aware that some people in this world would love to have our, America's, power and force in the world deminished.... or even under their control, so as to have the oppurtunity to sieze as much of the world as they can by brute force or deciet.


      Have we done bad things in our History... yes.... have we done great things... yes... that is the way of nations.

      Too bad.

      The world would be a far worse place if America were not in it.

      And as I keep saying, maybe that is what it deserves.

  48. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    You can continue to try to dance around reality, Mason, but no one is fooled...

    (Referring to Quill)  The taking of land through illegal invasion is not the isolated factor in play here...  Mason doesn't point to the Mexicans who, after the end of the war, were forced or coerced to either leave the United States altogether (though the United States allowed them to become citizens) or give up their lands...becoming hired labor on the ranches and farms that they built...

    Mason continues to see "Mexico" and "United States" bilaterally, and "Mexicans" one-dimensionally...

    Either his lack of knowledge on Mexico or bias keeps him from visualizing the tiny European elite dominating an overwhelmingly Indian population...  Racism in Mexico against Indians has never fact, it increases as the minority elite push deeper into areas that the Spaniards never tread...with oil discovered in Chiapas and increased land development in Oaxaca... … thout.html

    People are being displaced from their farms and ejidos...just as was done during the Porfiriato...for the sole benefit of the European minority and mostly the United States...

    But this is nothing new... … he-people/ … mmunities- … elanaa.htm … -this-wayq … vereignty/

    This list can go on and on....

    Again, those like Mason chose to absent fact and reality while creating paper tigers out of those that they seek to keep in degraded positions...

    It is far more profitable this way....

    This is why, for example...the United States invaded Mexico, only to take the specific lands it wanted and then retreated...

    The European-Americans had no desire of "taking responsibility" for the indigenous population....the real "Mexican" people....(not the Europeans who masquerade under this title)...

    We were too busy exterminating and deporting those already in "U.S." territory...

    Mason denies the "undesirable" labels that European Americans have been weaned into placing upon certain populations...

    I understand fully why there is a "brown pride" and "black pride".....there first was the creation of "white pride"...and a correlating subjugation of those in the "other" categories...

    Mason mistakes people trying to stand up for those who like to stand on top of others....(like himself)...

    This is called "identification with the aggressor" syndrome with a hint of "projection"....

    Americans, all of us, need to learn how to take responsibility for our actions...

  49. TMMason profile image60
    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    The rest of the world needs to learn to take their own responsibility, Mike.

    We have taken ours, we are not surrendering States to anyone. Let the illegals go back to their own nations and change the structures of their Govts..

    Oh they would be shot dead in the attempt.

    They all want to come here and have the American dream... by changing us into the same shitty ass govts that have failed in their nations.

    Too bad, we ain't buying it.

    Too bad if your mad I do not buy your apologist spin.

    Get over it.

  50. mikelong profile image61
    mikelongposted 12 years ago

    Thanks Mason for demonstrating your true lack of depth....

    Thankfully that "we" you are speaking of does not reflect larger America...

    As for those governments you criticize, they are the best American money and corrupt influence can buy.... 

    So, you are thanking yourself for your own foul, failed product that you continue to pay for...  You continue to try to separate your own part in this tragic paint the vaccuum....but perhaps this is only that projection problem of yours speaking again...

    In Honduras, fairly recently, the President spoke of opening up land horded by American fruit companies....and the result was a quick midnight trip out of the country while still in pajamas, all thanks to the American trained (School of the Americas) head of the Honduran Air Force... 

    As for Haiti, … -in-haiti/

    "Responsibility".....  It's hard to clean up one's country when someone else from the outside won't leave it alone...and worse, works endlessly to undermine sovereignty and self-determination...

    But, Mason, you wouldn't know (or acknowledge) any of that...

    American View:

    I am by no means "roped in"...  Having been able to critically analyze my former viewpoint, I use the same analysis for my current position...

    I am not here saying that MEChA is a saintly is a reflection of its larger environment...  Racism exists outside of it, and racism exists within it...

    However, institutionalised racism does not exist within MEChA.. 

    There are levels of corruption within some Chicana/o Studies departments in that some professors (only a couple that I have come across in my wide experiences) would give extra credit for students who also went to MEChA events...  I had one professor who, rather than lecture, decided to just show videos the entire semester...  But, I also had amazing professors like Juan Gomez-Quinones: … %C3%B1ones

    Aside a small percentage of Native American, the majority of my ancestry comes from Anatolia...  But my background was never held against me, or used as a measuring stick throughout any of my MEChA/Chicana/o Studies experiences..  In fact, I only found inquisitive minds who found ways to connect our differences into a whole... 

    As an Armenian(not to discount my Native American heritage), I understand what it means to be considered a foreignor/outcast/undesireable/second class citizen on my own native soil..  I realize the impact of doctored histories that either minimize or ignore the Turkish state does concerning the Genocide..and as the U.S. has concerning the promises it made to Armenia during the Wilson administration...

    Taking Chicana/o Studies, in several ways, brought me to search out and understand my own familial history...

    As I have said to Mason, understanding the environment within which something has formed and grown is key to figuring out who or what it actually is...

    If MEChA is the monster Mason makes it out to be, what does that say of the larger, far more dominant European-American society that encompasses it?

    From Haiti, Panama, and El Salvador to Mexico, Ecuador, and Columbia (not to discount others), American policy is quite clear...


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