habee we absolutely need voters to use their ID before they are allowed to vote.
It is my belief that any person with honest intentions of voting should want to prove their citizenship, and where they live and are registered to legally vote.
After the U.S. is the home of the free and the brave is it not?
That was a scam pulled off by the republicans. So far from what I can tell, in this country voter fraud is not a problem. The cases that they can count are too low to even talk about. It is something stupid like 5 out of 5.000. The flip side of that problem on the video should be how many people actually showed up to the polls to vote and found out that someone had already voted in their name? The answer is probably zero. It is the republicans who want the laws to change so they can supress the vote. This is ggoing on in practically every state that is headed by a republican.
Voter supression can have a great effect on the elections.. Case in point: During the Gore vs Bush election, cageing was done in the state of Florida (my state), which is illegal.There were more than 10,000 people...all minorities (and democrates), whose names were placed on an illegal list, and they were provented from voting....which is of course a part of their constitutional rights. So just who is doing the voter fraud?
I would say that one is too many.
As has been mentioned in other threads, a free, hassle-free way for people who lack state ID's to get them is a necessary prerequisite for voter ID laws, so that would be the starting point.
A scam? So the whole thing was staged with actors?
That's wrong, too, as I've stated before. And hundreds of illegal votes were cast in just 12 FL counties in 2000, 75% of which were for Gore.
So the idea is that we should wait until a potential problem becomes irreparable before we try to prevent it? That worked so well in the case of the weak levees in New Orleans, didn't it? (Engineers had warned about them many months before Hurricane Katrina's flood waters hit.)
I always thought the better policy was "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
I disagree with your belief that ID laws relate to voter suppression. In my opinion, the concern about possible voter fraud has more to do with the increasing numbers of undocumented foreign workers and the increasing number of citizenship rights that seem to be gravitating towards them. When is it appropriate to begin the conversation about solutions to problems that are looming on the horizon?
That's how I see it, too - against illegal immigrants who shouldn't be voting.
Interesting not every country agrees. I voted, quite legally, in Scotland while a resident alien--without being checked for legal status.
They didn't ask. So I might easily have not been. Many people from my country do overstay in the UK.
Their approach is, tax is gathered from GST--so if you have a permanent address you pay tax, and if you pay tax you can vote.
What if you are there but don't have a permanent address? How is the permanent address proven? Is there any kind of check on the accuracy of the address given, or is the voter's honesty assumed, as in the linked video?
I used a bill sent to me at my abode. I think their were other methods. I found it very straightforward though and so hardly even remember the process. Being a citizen or legal resident explicitly had nothing to do with it--which was my point. So this is not a universal part of an orderly election process.
Do you have any figures on the percentage of illegal residents in Scotland? I'm curious to know whether Scotland has reached the same balance between legal and illegal residents as we have here. Doesn't that seem like an obvious reason for a difference in the attitudes and laws there?
Do you mean voter suppression like having members of the Black Panthers haning around voting places?
See I don't get that, how does having Black panther members around suppress my vote, I have seen lots of groups hanging around voting booths, from Tea Party to Socialist party and they have never influenced my vote, how could they? I walk past them and cast my vote secretly it's not like they will know is it? To call that voter suppression is wrong and foolish that is just activism, people be they idiots like the black panther party or not exersizing their right to free speech. What happened in Florida on the other hand is very different.
Were they carrying clubs? It does not intimidate me or you, but imagine that you are old and and nervous or just weak and nervous? Would you be intimidated then?
Even if they were carrying clubs (which is a crime) so what? Are they going to beat me on suspicion of voting for someone else? How exactly can they know who I voted for or who I will vote for and why should they in any way influence my vote? they are not allowed into the booth with me and you and I both know that if they make any attempt to physically stop people from voting then the police will be there soon afterwards (if they aren't already there) I guess it might influence me not to wear a Nazi symbol t shirt but it won't change my vote.
That’s just obtuse. It’s called Voter Intimidation, which in this case was the threat of and/or perception of physical harm to a voter. Do you really think a police response after a physical attack helps or protects a voter in any way.
The intention was very clear, if these men perceived an individual was not voting the way they wanted them to, the threat or perception of physical violence stopped that individual from voting.
Did you read my previous response at all. Do you honestly believe that intimidation was not the intent of large black men with clubs glaring small elderly white, oriental and hispanic people as they approached the entrance of the polling place?
It might have been the intention of those morons but I have to question the moral fiber of anyone who is dissuaded from voting by a mean look, quite pathetic really. if anything I would expect the vote to show a backlash against the attempted intimidation.
You are not paying attention. Moral fiber and feeble bodies are two different things. Many weak bodied people people have a great deal of moral fiber yet to weak to fight odds like that. Likely as not, in their youth they probably faced much greater odds than voter intimidation and challenged those odds with great ferocity.
I believe we need them in some form although I don't want to carry another card around in my wallet if I can help it. My county does require me to present a voter registration card when I vote but it is not a photo id. If we need an ID to fly, we need an ID to vote. No one is being deprived of anything in that process except those who want to circumvent the legal process. Thanks. WB
And requiring ID steals the votes of those who don't have ID. Maybe they "should" have ID, but a hell of a lot of legal citizens don't. So it is trashing some votes regardless of what you do.
But that is not a reason for not having ID laws. It is a reason for creating hassle-free means of acquiring legitimate ID's, as Eric stated. There are so many simple solutions to the problem that it is mind-boggling to me that it is such a heated issue.
It is the reason to create those systems and ensure they have been effective *before* requiring ID.
And if universal ID was simple, I suspect we would already have it. I suspect it will take biometrics to make this happen.
It's hard to believe that you said this with a straight face. Do you honestly believe that all good things that are simple are already in place?
I think your interpretation of what I said was rather simplistic.
I meant that I found it simple to get ID. But a hell of a lot of people don't have it. Therefore there must be something about the situation that is more complex than I appreciate. As just making application processes available has not already solved the problem.
The problem, as I see it, is that people are making assumptions that the request or requirement for voter ID must be an attempt at voter suppression, and they make that assumption before investigating the possibilities; then they become hysterical and shrill in their denunciation of the attempt to pass voter ID laws.
We still have months before the November election. Rather than spending the time on making it simple for every citizen to acquire a legitimate, legal ID, we are wasting time on arguing about whether we should have them. Time wasted! There is plenty of time to get ID's before November.
Given that undocumented voters are likely to be disproportionately Democrat I think it is reasonable to think there might be a partisan motive when it comes to excluding them.
Ahhh, thank you. This is all about the November election.
Have all these Republican primaries allowed voting without this new id law? Is it only Dems who committ voter fraud?
And what about the voting machines?? No new laws regarding who and what owns and operates them?
And I heard a gun permit is acceptable, but not a student id.
No agenda behind it??
The November election is the next one that I know about. The ID laws are about all elections. [ETA: In addition, I am certain that the question of voter ID's has been a part of the national conversation since before the primaries.]
I am not making any claims about one party over the other. I responded to a specific statement that psycheskinner made. In my opinion, all parties ought to be interested in having the best election process that we can achieve. What was best in the past is not necessarily what is best for the future. ("Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.")
I think there should be laws regarding who and what owns and operates the voting machines. That is definitely fodder for another thread. The question in this thread relates to one aspect of voting, not to every single issue relating to the voting process.
I would not agree with the one option or the other restriction, personally.
I think it is important for us to have these conversations - even arguments - in order to work out what is just and fair for all. I know that partisan politics is involved at one level, but that does not mean that we are not facing legitimate concerns.
Did you think that I said there was "no agenda behind it"? No, I didn't say that at all.
I wish more citizens were involved in discussions of policies, so that it wouldn't be up to politicians to bring up issues that need to be addressed. If we didn't wait for them to surface potential problems, then it might be easier to look at them without partisanship. Oh, for the day....
Oooohhh so everyone who favors voter ID's must automatically rules like this too?
Fair enough. I also think your interpretation of the situation is rather simplistic.
Is complexity the only possible reason why people might not get an ID? What about the fact that they entered the country illegally? Would that not be a reason why they might not get a legal ID?
I agree with that. Voters should have PLENTY of time to get an ID before it's required.
You don't have to pay taxes in the US to vote - not income taxes. What's GST?
Time and door-to-door invited/advocated access IMHO. Low IQ, addicts, the disabled, non-English speakers etc won't get it even if they have time, but they are still voting citizens who should be able to exercise that right at will. IMHO, it will take use of biometric ID without documentation to really make this work. These systems are used regionally in India with pretty good success.
Can you give more information about biometric ID? The term itself sounds like a different form of documentation, so there is clearly something I am missing.
Basically it is using a combination of direct measurements of your body to identify you (veins in the palm or eyes etc). It is just now becoming practical to use and at least as accurate as existing methods. Has its own problems, but good for transient and poorly documented communities.
So, this is a reason for us to become more creative in the methods we use for helping people to gain their ID's. Drug rehab centers, methadone (etc.) treatment centers, halfway houses - there are many locations which can become outreach locations for helping citizens apply for their legal ID's.
"As a recent Center for American Progress report explains, ALEC is one of the leading proponents of so-called Voter ID legislation that potentially disenfranchises millions of low-income, minority, student and elderly voters in an effort to exclude groups that tend to vote Democratic from the franchise."
I'd google the report, but some corporate hacking site has infested my computer. Everyone worried about gvt in your computer...no one cares that corporate-world is destroying it from within.
Why should retirees who never had id's be inconvenienced to get picture ids? Many fought to defend this country and now have to prove who they are to vote? Or the housewife who never had a need, because she never drove or never worked out of the house, should now be expected to get id? Many elderly have enough trouble getting around without this inconvenience. People are constantly complaining about Obama's mandatory healthcare, but find this id being mandatory as okay? I don't get it?
I believe the Voter's Rights Act of 1965 addressed this situation. From Wikipedia: "The Act prohibits states from imposing any "voting qualification or prerequisite to voting, or standard, practice, or procedure ... to deny or abridge the right of any citizen of the United States to vote on account of race or color."
Further, a potential voter must be qualified before he or she is considered a valid person with the right to vote. I believe we should focus on addressing impediments to voting as opposed to keeping people out. Low voter turnout has always been a problem on primary and national elections.
What does voter ID have to do with color? Are brown, black, red, and yellow people denied IDs? Gosh - I know lots of them who drive!
A small bit of research will answer that question.
Don't you really wonder why all of a sudden, we have to change the laws? Why ALEC is sponsoring them, when Koch Bros said this election is "the war of all wars"??
When O-Keefe committs another fraud attempt to entrap by posing someone as Eric Holder? O-keefe, the snake? The Fox operative?
Fox+ Koch+ ALEC.....it's clear as a bell to me.
Once again, you keep trying to lump those who want a FAIR ID requirement system in with those who apparently don't.
Why Now? The Real Id Act passed in 2005; in House it was passed by a vote of 368 to 58 and passed unanimously in the Senate. The Voter ID requirement, which assures only US citizens vote is linked to that legislation. This ain't new.
Not quite sure requiring an ID that only demonstrates that a US citizen is indeed a US citizen violates that act in anyway.
It does however create quite the conundrum for the Libs that want everyone that is not a conservative to vote whether they’re citizens or not.
You know---you people use that smear a lot...and you use it for other things too.
But I would really like to know-- HOW an illegal immigrant can vote and collect welfare? How?
What smear are you referring to?
That one must be a citizen to vote?
And who are “you people”?
Did you mean “you people” as in attempting to define an American Citizen?
Or just those that oppose the twisted garbage you spew here every day?
"Libs that want everyone that is not a conservative to vote whether they’re citizens or not."
"twisted garbage you spew here every day"--I say things like this about Russsshhhhhh or Romney. You say it about me.
Okay I’ll ask the question again, so perhaps you can understand.
How is requiring a US citizen to demonstrate their citizenship and thereby, their inherent right to vote that cannot be denied, a smear?
I have to show my ID when I vote.
If you do not know the answer I tell you why.
It is to guarantee that each registration to vote is matched to an individual and that the individual associated with the registration is a US citizen that has the right to vote.
It’s really pretty simple concept.
Even my lib/dem friends from "up north" think we need voter ID laws.
Oddly enough, it is kind of ridiculous that we need to enact a law to require an ID to keep the unscrupulous from voting or abusing the system.
Why?? Why is a student ID or an electric bill not enough? How about a doctors' bill...a rent slip....a job stub? Here, we have to fill out a census, and that's it. No id needed on voter day.
And if it's not new...why not in 2010 when we were voting in the mid-terms? Why not 2008? Why now....when the stakes are so high? And they know who this will hurt...Dems.
And why is it R's pushing it?
You said Libs want people to vote whether they are citizens or not. That was the smear.
Thankfully, in Canada we don't need photo ID to vote. I don't drive and I don't have a valid passport currently; there is talk of a universal picture ID but that is still not available. All people need to show is something with their name and something like a utility bill that has their current address.
Does 10 million people out of a population of 311 million who are illegal make such a difference in the election process?
I can imagine that most, if not all, illegal immigrants wouldn't risk voting in case they get found out.
well how about we all take a drive up there, hang out for a bit, get some free govt sponsored taxpayer provided medication and then vote in your elections?
Silly me...I thought it came about after the TeaBagger sweep in 2010...isn't this "new" law being implemented solely in the states with newly-elected R Governors?
Any sane person would question the motives.
What gets me is some thinking it's a walk in the park to get the id. My dad waited 4 hours to renew his license last time. He was 85 at the time. To say he was upset is an understatement! But without it he couldn't drive or vote!
Only if they are under 64 years of age. So the elderly in your state have to go in person and do the lines.
Well, that stinks! That's why I think IDs should be made at nursing homes, assisted living facilities, churches, senior citizens' centers, etc. GA already has voter ID. I think getting the ID needs to be made as easy as possible.
Who's going to pay for all that? The tax-payers? Sounds like an awful lot of work to go through and it's not needed.
Making it harder to vote...why? Seems anti-thetical to the the whole point of America.
In every state I researched that either has or will have Voter ID rules, ID Cards for voting must be issued free of any charge to those that are qualified or sworn indigent, in compliance with a Supreme Court ruling.
As to the cost, every state has multiple sources of ID, and ID’s in additional to Driver Licenses are available through all DMV offices nationwide. In addition, in compliance with the Real ID Act all these IDs now issued must be verified with citizenship status.
So the cost you assert is virtually nonexistent. This can be simply accomplished by printing an icon on the issued ID, no different than a safe driver endorsement or your photo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9BQQEen … re=related
hmmm, if you have to send out for a birth certificate...how long does that take?
Go to office...IF you can find on NEAR you. IF you have a car.
Buy an ID, wair for it to come in the mail....all to prove you have the right to vote. Oops, sorry--I geuss it's a priviledge now.
Are we concerned about illegal immigrants voting? Who are we really concerned about? Has anyone actually read the Voter's Rights Act of 1965? I think that would help cut through a lot of this discussion. And yes, if we are only talking about illegal immigrants, we are clearly discussing the issue of race and voting rights. No one asks for ID when we fill out our census forms at home.
As a citizen of the US, you have certain responsibilities; proving you are who you say you are is one of them. Let me ask you, are you in favor of someone going into your bank and withdrawing all your money without first proving their identity ok with you?
Just asking, be well.
I'm skeptical of the necessity of voter ID laws outside of a few places that are notorious for problems, but if people are really going to insist on them, maybe they should study up on how some of the countries that do require them do it. I know in Russia, everyone gets one at 14 and they get reissued periodically thereafter (every 10 years, I think, but I'd have to check with my husband to be sure). It's not legally mandatory to have it with you at all times, but it's de facto mandatory because the police do random stops and heaven help you if you don't have it!
"No one asks for ID when we fill out our census forms at home."
Exactly...and this is all it takes in my town for us to vote. No Id, no "papers", just the fact that we live here, and have proven it by filling out the census.
"but it's de facto mandatory because the police do random stops and heaven help you if you don't have it!"
Hey--Hitler did this --first thing he did. Require everyone to have papers.
It's already a law in Arizona....if you're of Hispanic descent!
Yep, where I live all you have to do is show up and sign a book. The volunteer staff will then totally not compare it to the signature they have on file because what are they, handwriting experts? And plus they're like eighty.
It's a foolproof system. No potential for abuse whatsoever.
Who is going to check "ID" on mailed ballots?
Who may vote by absentee ballot?
Any registered voter may vote by absentee ballot.
How do I request an absentee ballot?
You submit a request to receive an absentee ballot.
I agree, if voting absentee, who's going to check their id. Lets get real here. If someone wants to abuse the system, they will probably figure out a way to do it. 99% of us or more go to the polls as legitimate registered voters. And we're wasting all this time, money and energy when we should be concentrating on getting jobs. Sorry, no need to waste our time and tax dollars on voter id laws.
You know this is really a no brainer, ID card to vote at the polls. Absentee ballot? Show ID card at the post office or voter registration office to get a ballot. Want one mailed call in and request it with your voter registration number and ID number.
In this society where everything is linked by computer it's just not that difficult a task, there just are no great big hurdles unless you are trying to circumvent the system or looking for reasons to “create” issues.
Wrong. It's a great hurdle to a lot of people, and that's the reason for it.
Voter suppression 2012.
Same as voter suppression 1952.
There's no need for it, but to silence people's voice. IMO
Every citizen of the United States has a RIGHT to vote. Adding hurdles to exercise a RIGHT is just plain wrong. Punish anyone who would dare commit voter fraud. Punish harshly! No other human being or group of humans has any voice to alter another"s Rights.
New rule: Maintain the Right to free speech but force anyone who wants to exercise that right to get a license to engage in such activities.
Well said. That is how we do it in Canada. If people are found to have voted illegally they are punished. I forgot to mention that we do need a voter registration card that is mailed to you and a piece of ID with your address to vote, but no photo ID.
If something is sent through the mail at time of registration, that would not impede the process. I think this is a good idea.
I would not be happy to show up at the polls only to be told that I forgot a document.
Sure, that's great going forward. But what about the people who have already registered? If and when we implement voter ID nationwide (as I hope we will), there will be some period of time while those who don't have the right kind of ID have to catch up with those who get them at the time of registration. I hope that they can and will make those Voter Registration cards photo ID's.
And people are not happy to show up at the polls only to learn that they went to the wrong polling place, or that they arrived too late, or a myriad of other problems that can happen because they didn't take the time to educate themselves about the details they needed to know.
It seems to me that by the time you get to the polling place it's a moot point.
You can't vote if you're not registered.
The time to prove your American citizenship is when you register to vote, not when you show up to exercise that right.
Seems to me there are much bigger problems with the system than showing the sanctioned ID.
Diebold machines and hanging chads, for example.
Geez you people act like voting is an everyday event like going to the grocery store. Voting happens at most (if you consider local, state and federal elections), once a year, does it really take that much effort? And is it that much of an inconvenience and a burden to get an ID issued once in your lifetime and then update it if you move?
Really people look at it logically, anyone opposed to this is apparently in support of non US citizens voting in our elections. This has absolutely nothing to do with anything else.
ID cards are easily available and obtainable in all states, they are free to the indigent, every state accepts other documented officially issued ID, like a driver license or CWP as identification.
No one can vote unless they are registered, all this rule requires is that you demonstrate you are the person that is registered.
"Ruthelle Frank, an 84-year-old resident of a small town in Wisconsin, is suing her home state because, for the first time in her adult life, she might not be able to vote. In 2011, Wisconsin’s Republican-led Legislature enacted a new law that requires state-issued photo identification for all voters. Because Frank cannot drive, she has never held a license. Last November, Frank’s daughter drove her to their local Department of Motor Vehicles office to obtain a photo ID.
Frank says she knew she did not have a proper birth certificate, so she took her baptismal certificate, marriage certificate and Social Security card to the DMV, hoping that would be sufficient.
It was not.
When she got to the counter, a woman looked at the baptismal certificate and said, “Well, this is illegal. How do I know you are not an alien?”
“I was…about to cry,” Frank recalls, “because I have lived at the same address for 83 years.”
Frank left the DMV without an ID, and now may have to pay $200 to have her birth certificate changed because her maiden name is misspelled."
Good going butt hats.
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