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genaeaposted 11 years ago
Well, you seem to think that you have that one figured out. But I will try.
The men came to Jesus to ask him about his followers breaking the law. He responded with, well you break the law too.
The light was shed on honoring your father and mother. Not stoning. He showed them the err in their thought behind the scriptures. See? These people were so full of sin and self, that they sought to judge others and hand out God's punishments for others while their own hands were completely filthy.
God wanted the people to see that they were not doing what he said at all themselves; only pointing fingers. Now, at him! tha nerve!!
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genaeaposted 11 years ago
When Jesus came, the stoning was over for God's children. And so was the killing. He wanted them to see how ugly he considered sin to be. But the leaders only saw the sins of others. Their own sin, they hid within. They judged others but themselves, they excused quietly. Jesus brought a cover for all of us. Following his lead of humility allows us to truly see ourselves. We begin to have compassion, as Jesus did. "He who is forgiven much..."
Remember the prayers that Jesus talked about? One, extremely full of self and what he feels he has accomplished for God and now, his pay is due? The other, was way low. Father, I know I am not worthy ( was the gist) Whose prayer was accepted? Humility allows us to see God quicker.
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  yourdecisionposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Their own sin, they hid within.
  
  Actually we still do that all the time. Don't we?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sure But the killer part is then, trying to stone someone else for their sin.
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yourdecisionposted 11 years ago
we don't have the right to attack others, regardless of circumstances, unless they are threatening our life. And I don't see how the faith of this lady, threatens your life or mine.
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bBereanposted 11 years ago
Genaea, just fyi, JMcFarland is not James, she is Julie. Pretty easy, when you see the JM to subliminally conclude "Jim" as I did that myself at first. Correct me if I am wrong, Julie, but that probably happens a lot. It has no bearing on the dialogue, but I wanted to clarify.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ok...
  I have a good memory, and James, I like. "She" has his voice. "She" speaks as he does. "She" has his testimony, aside from a few minor changes. She is of the same spirit. James. Now do not sue me. I am only speaking with a metaphorical sway. Sorry Julie.
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genaeaposted 11 years ago
Are Allah and my God the same being, Allah even more misunderstood?
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Practically the same, except that he didn't commit adultery and he didn't sent his son Jesus but prophet Jesus.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Are you comparing an apple wit a tomatoe ? Are they the same ?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am not REAL sure of the Islamic deity. I have gotten a few different stories from the "Muslims" that I have come across. It seems like they have the same God from what I have gathered, they just have a different outlook on what he wants.
  But, again, I am not "informed".
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm no Muslim, but Allah is the same God of the OT, they just don't believe Jesus was the son of God and only a prophet. They believe Mohammad to be the last prophet while Christians don't recognize Mohammad as a prophet. So for Muslim's, no trinity.
  
  Hey genaea, is that crazy scripture poster still around? She sent me a few nasty emails. She really does need some help.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We all have heard from her. I think she has been helped.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Remember Daniel? He was the prophet and predicted that the book is closed. Anything written after could be truth or false. It depends if contradict to the Bible or not. I would like to add: An Old Covenant was dealing with the nation and New: Body of Believers. Old Covenant dealt with flesh (Law curbed the sin) it was all what existed. New Covenant is Grace and Truth which set us free (not to sin but from sin).
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but remember Mohammad? He was also thought to be a prophet and stated that the book is not closed and not correct. You believe one story because that was your indoctrination.
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genaeaposted 11 years ago
Your questions are critical. You have passed Rad Man and 666's tests. You are in with them. Congratulations!!!
I on the other hand, remain on the "island". God is real. He rained. He destroyed. He will destroy again.
Maybe the Egyptians had no time to get a pen with all the water coming down. And which piece of paper would have survived? For all you know, all your "evidence" could be from a different time, much later. Remember, scientists only know so much about dating the earth and other stuff. The flood could have changed all the dynamics. Definitely should have. Or, the Lord suspended nature for a while to allow the flood to do what he wanted. He is the ultimate planner. He knows what he is doing.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's interesting that the only people who say we don't no much about dating object and the earth are Christian's trying to hold onto their lies. There are many very accurate was of dating objects. Only the Christians tell that dating objects is not accurate, with of course the exception of Muslims. The Quran tells them that the earth is shaped like an egg, and they think that's accurate, because they have been told as you have to not question the book. If you had grown up in a Muslim family you would be telling me the earth is egg shaped.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  See? The Lord knows who to put where.
  Nobody else says that we don't know how to date the earth because they don't want to admit that. They lean unto their own understanding. And where their reasoning runs out, they just fill it in with an "educated" guess. Well I ca guess too!!! But I will be using spirit, not math.
  I say, all that water, for those years should have done some changing of the earth. There should have been a shift in dating as we know it. We cannot fathom what the conditions were after the flood. We cannot tell how much shift took place, or what kind. We, I don't think, know the season in which the flood took place, we don't know what the temperature was. We don't know how tightly they crammed into the boat. We don't know what else we don't know.
  It wasn't a boat they found on the mountain. It was some piece of wood that was believed to have been from a boat that they used their majikal calculations to date and...
  Can you tell me how to do some carbon dating? I have an artifact that I would like to date. Will you explain that process to me? I can probably disprove the bible to myself.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing have ever been found on any mountain that resembles a boat. There was a lie set forth by someone (can't remember his name) that he found the ark, but it turned out to be a hoax an just an unusual land formation. No wood and no artifacts. No missing people from the America's. The American's were populated about 13,500 years ago and from the time it took humans coming out of Africa to reach the America's was 46,500 years. So, if the flood happened 6 thousand years ago, that's not nearly enough time to repopulate Europe and Asia and then for the same Cultures to repopulate the America's is another impossibility. But I guess you trust a book written a few thousand years ago to tell you what happened.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And you trust a book that was written yesterday.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  All we can see is subject of change. The spirit realm is an exception. The science also agree dating could change. Remember this, there is prae-Adamic world. God is eternal and we are only speck of it. Our history is 6000 years old, but the heavens and the earth are 13 plus billion years old. The Bible does not change, but science can change let say to 17 billions. We all are dependent on belief. But there are other more important things.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You say the funniest things. All evidence suggest modern humans have a history of 200,000 years.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Even more " funniest things" ;
  neither 6000, nor 200,000, it's probably one or two difference .
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  English please.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Rad Man. You're my good teacher of English .
  My point supposedly could have been in form of a question rather than in a statement.
  ... perhaps one or two years of difference : neither 6000 years nor 200.000 years.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, I understand you now. Sorry. Yes, I could be off by a few years, but not 194,000 years,
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  
  Within one sentence you tend to refute science.... "6000 years" .... then you defer to it....."13 plus billion years old. "
  
  Would you like to explain a little, please?
  
  Also, what in your opinion are the "other, more important things?"
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  okay, well they didn't actually write with pen and paper.
  
  The fact of the matter is that your beliefs are unfalsifiable and that you're practicing intellectual dishonesty to the extreme. The bible contradicts itself. It does not line up with history, archaeology, evidence or science. People have tried for hundreds of years to prove that the flood happened, and all they've managed to do is disprove it time and time again. If anyone could prove it actually happened (which they can't, because it didn't) they would receive a Nobel prize. No one has come close.
  
  When are you going to wake up and realize that just because the bible says something, that doesn't make it true. If you genuinely care if your beliefs are true, you would be forced to examine the way truth is determined. You're just determined to believe a lie because it feels good, and you want to. That's fine for you, but that's not a path to truth. That's a path to deception.
  
  Can you explain why the bible was created? God never mandated anyone to compile this book. There are not only 4 gospels - there are dozens. Why did they pick those four? You know nothing about church history, but you cling to this book with a fanatical determination. If you knew where it came from and why it came about, you would have to examine the very foundation of your belief system, but you unfortunately never will
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  When are you going to wake up and realize that just because the bible says it, does not automatically make it false information? See how that ball bounces in all different types of directions???
  You say I'm crazy. I say you crazy. You say the bible is false. I say the bible is true. You say you can date the earth. I say, The Lord has secrets known to no one. Ok, that one is scripture, so you can strike it if you want. You say that I am fighting with a dissonant cognition. I say that you are fighting with a dissonant cognition. We can go on an on an on until the break of dawn, and I will still be saying what I am saying. And you may...say whatever you will.
  The bible was created for assistance with spiritual matters of our faith. It was authorized by God the father and it will stand forever. I know that you cannot see that, but you will.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I will be the first person to admit that the bible probably has some true statements in it, but just because it says something that happens to be true does not mean that everything in it is true. The Odyssey may have a few factual realities in it, but it's still a myth. You accept that with every single other book except for this one, don't you see that?
  
  I never said you were crazy, but thanks for the assumption. You can think I'm crazy all you want. I didn't actually say that I could date the earth. I'm not a scientist. I do know that if you are a young-earth creationist, you are going against all scientific evidence that has been tested, repeated and proven.
  
  I think what you mean is "cognitive dissonance" not dissonant cognition. If you can't even use the word correctly in a sentence, how can you possibly claim to understand what it means? The fact that you can repeat yourself over and over again does not make your claims true. The bible was actually NOT authorized by god. God never told people to put together a book. Ever.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Now how would you know what God did?
  WAIT!!! Did you just say that you don't know how to do any dating??? You mean you just "blindly" accept what they have to say, just because it agrees with your opinions??? Hmmm...
  This book is not just any other book.
  Cognitive dissonance, dissonant cognition... You nu wa ai mint! OOOOOHHHHH, you smarter! Yeah. Ok.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Carbon dating is a relatively easy process. Carbon has two stable, nonradioactive isotopes: carbon-12 (12C), and carbon-13 (13C). In addition, there are trace amounts of the unstable isotope carbon-14 (14C) on Earth. Carbon-14 has a relatively short half-life of 5,730 years, meaning that the amount of carbon-14 in a sample is halved over the course of 5,730 years due to radioactive decay.
  
  A little math a Bob's your uncle.
  
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, and who gave you those calculations? and who validated that they were correct? Did they take into consideration, the flood? You say carbon lasts how long??? and who verified that??? I cannot go any older than 1000 years, we need a living witness of how long that carbon takes to do whatever. :)This is what you ask of scripture. Proof proof proof. It is all a matter of faith. Your faith is somewhere else. You have not verified anything that they say. you just listen and follow. No problem with me.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, no need to test and validate. Just ask the bible, just like the middle ages when scientific research that conflicted with the bible could get you killed. Remember when they through reading the bible thought that the earth was flat and everything we can see evolves around us? Then someone looked up at the planets and found they have moons and that someone spent the rest of his life under house arrest.
  
  "God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars."
  
  Interesting that the moon is not a light at all. But I bet it looked that way to whoever wrote that. And also interesting is that he moon is not alway seen in the night, but sometimes seen in the day.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Now you have just thought yourself into a fit.
  I hope that you are ok.
  You have not tested a darn thing. You blindly believe what they said to you, because they said, "I tested it" ok. If that is alright with you, it is alright with me. I cannot tell you how to conduct your affairs.
  Just for the sake of curiosity, what is your definition of light?
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How do I know what god did or didn't do? Because I've actually read what you claim to be his book. Cover to cover, more times than I can count. Something that you, yourself, have admitted that you haven't done. Nowhere does it say "put together a bible and that's going to be my word and it will be shared forever, blah blah blah, command, blah blah, hell, blah". The bible was not put together by god's orders. It was put together by man for political reasons - mainly to counter a collection of scriptures that went directly against the current church doctrine of the time that included many many other gospels. If you took a minute to study your own belief's history you might know that.
  
  No, I don't have to take scientific evidence on faith. It's evidence. I have researched and studied the scientific evidence on the dating of the earth, and I believe that the scientists who have been trained to do this type of thing professionally know what they're talking about. When you test something scientifically, you don't just do it once and claim you know all the answers. Those tests are done repeatedly, and then they are peer reviewed and analyzed. You don't know even the most fundamental aspects of scientific reasoning as evidenced by your post.
  
  I didn't claim that I was "smarter than you", but now that you point it out, I'd say that it's true from what I've seen so far, yeah. Yet you're the only one claiming to have all the answers. Why aren't you published in magazines, then? Why don't you have an award?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I will admit that scientific thought is not my forte. I have other interests. There is not one shred of evidence that I am wrong. In this case, we must believe someone. I believe God. You believe everyone else. That is not a problem for me.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  the problem is that you don't have one shred of evidence that you're RIGHT. People who lack a belief in god do not need to prove that no god exists. The burden of proof rests on those making a positive claim. In simpler language, if you claim that god exists, it is your responsibility to prove it. It works that way in court, it works that way in science, and it works that way in logical, rational thought. You cannot provide a single shred of evidence to prove that your god exists, even though your god tells you that you should be able to. You cannot prove the bible is an authority, accurate or worthy of paying attention to. You can't prove anything at all. All you have are assertions, claims and assumptions based on your own bias. That's not the way the rest of the world works. When it comes down to it, you have nothing. Nothing at all.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So why are you trying your best to take it from me???
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  what am I trying to take from you? A forum is for discussion, is it not? Since it is a public venue and anyone is free to participate, I joined a conversation already in progress. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but I'm well within my right to be here, like it or not.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am so glad you are here. This conversation would not nearly have as much color without you. Now, you say that I have nothing. Absolutely nothing. So why are you arguing with me? I say that you have nothing. Absolutely nothing. And I do not visit the conversation that you started. Yet, you have "pa-laan-ted" your feet at this table. Eat all you want. There's plenty.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I said you don't have any evidence that what you believe is true, aside from personal experience, which you choose to attribute to a god, and not chance, coincidence, intuition, etc. That does not fit the criteria for evidence, sorry. In order for something to be evidence, it has to be possible to demonstrate it, duplicate it, test it and quantify it, none of which you can do.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is the carnal mind/ man in action. Spirit of God is on a parallel plane. It will not cross, unless you step over.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  that is a nonsensical claim that you cannot possibly demonstrate.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So the lord suspended nature, but left all of North America and Africa and Australia alone. The people remained. There is evidence of asteroids hitting the earth millions of years ago and causing the mass extinction of the dinosaurs, but none of a world wide flood a few thousand years ago?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Again, we see where your faith lies. Must you continue to convince me where you stand? I know already. Dang
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JMcFarlandposted 11 years ago
Here is the fundamental difference between you and I, genaea. I am an actual critical thinker. I (and I daresay most of the other skeptics/atheists/non-believers in this forum) approach information with an open mind. Science does the same. If a scientist or an intellectually honest skeptic believes something to be true based on evidence and that evidence is proven faulty or contradicted by new evidence, we CHANGE OUR MINDS. That's the nature of skepticism. That's the nature of critical thinking. When you are presented with actual evidence that contradicts things that you want to believe, you essentially stick your fingers in your ears and don't care because nothing can possibly refute your own belief. You're blatantly ignoring all the evidence to the contrary because it is your opinion that the bible cannot possibly be wrong about anything - although that is fundamentally baseless and untrue. Look at history, archaeology, biblical scholarship, etc. All of them would disagree with you. Even christians would disagree with this kind of blind faith, accepting everything based on what you WANT to be true and not what actually is.

You want credentialed biblical scholars that are noted and repeatedly say that the bible is full of thousands of errors, that parts of the bible were blatantly changed in order to fit the popular doctrine and that it is unreliable as a historical source, try Bart Ehrman. He has multiple degrees, does public speaking engagements all over the world, he's a professor of the New Testament in North Carolina and is a noted author of many, many books that are revered by christians and non-believers alike. He has debated apologists like William Lane Craig and more, and many of his talks are available for free on YouTube. He would fundamentally disagree with your view of the bible - and guess what - he's a lot more knowledgeable than you are on the subject. I challenge you to do nothing more than look him up and see what he has to say about your precious book.

Additionally, I find it funny that you have repeatedly denied that it is your responsibility to prove god or provide evidence for him, when the bible that you revere so highly speaks directly to the contrary. In fact, you are COMMANDED to do so. 2 Peter 3:15 “Always be prepared to give an answer to everybody who asks you to provide a reason for the hope that you have.”

That verse doesn't mean ignore any requests for evidence. In fact, it speaks directly to the contrary, and it tells you that you should ALWAYS be prepared to give a reason for the hope that you have in jesus. Oh, by the way, a REASON is not "i believe it end of story" that's an assertion. So I would like to hear your REASON for belief.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  When I was a kid, I was always carted to church. Church, church, church, church and did I say church??? I hated it after a while. Soon, I started listening. I liked the sermons. I would hear all kinds of contradictory statements. Then I heard one day, "Study to show thyself approve." I was hit with an idea. Hey, I said to myself, I will look at it myself. I prayed and asked for an understanding. I love books. and my parents were really leary about outside activities. So I read a lot. The bible became one of my favorites. As I noticed the preachers were only telling half the story, I became even more determined to find out the truth for myself.
  I did.
  Can't fool me.
  But it is not me. It is God that allowed me to understand. He gave me his spirit because I wanted it for myself. I saw people living such beautiful lives because of God.
  I went to church while I was searching and the woman there told the church to pray for their pastors for 3 days and watch your money grow. At the time, I had bought the money message. But I tried what she said. The Lord knew my heart was clean. By the end of the week, I had a job that made more money than most of the older people I knew; and this job fell out of the sky. I had no idea that I could even be qualified for such a position. I know that it was God.
  I also had a dream 3 nights in a row. It was remarkable. That has never happened to anyone I know, I asked all of them. The dream is coming true. I dreamed about my daughter 2 years before she was born. I had already had a son, and he was 11 years old at the time. The personality of the girl in my dream was the exact same as my daughter. I believe because I must. There is no other way for me. I could go on and on and on about all of the prophetic messages that were spoken to "only me" as a kid, that actually occurred.
  There are times when I ponder a word of scripture, or have a prayer that I only tell God. The answer is always given shortly by random people I meet. Confirmation of spiritual whispers happen regularly by more than one source.
  My reason
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That isn't actually a reason. It's personal experience. Do you know what "reason" means?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Do you???
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  actually, yes I do. I'm well acquainted with definitions in scientific terms as well as in the terms of common acceptance. It doesn't escape my notice, however, that you failed to actually answer the question.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Definition of reason, please?
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're falling apart gradually. Seemingly only security about your persuasion will overtake you if everybody start agreeing with you. Which won't ever happen, and your unsecurity might reach a misery status .
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand what you're trying to say at all, sorry.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Accept my apology, please. No need to be sorry. You are helping me to figure up what/where is the" misunderstanding" created by my inadequacy.Unless well intending people show me,I still won't know.
  Thanks
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Whoops, I sense a problem here. NEVER ask God to make your money grow. People must not ask Him to make them richer. He will provide for our needs and not provide us with a salary that is better than others by just dropping it out of the sky.
  
  My pastor was just preaching about this yesterday how many people consider God to be a genie for them to increase their worldly wealth. I knew a person who used to salivate at the thought of the riches He believed Jesus would provide for Him.
  
  Just remember, Satan can impersonate God exactly. What we think is from God can actually be from Satan. He comes as an angel of light and I most suspect you have been a victim of his. I, myself, have been fooled in the past .
  
  I have been unemployed for 10 years after finishing my latest course in May 2010. I went to countless job interviews and was finally employed by a psychopath which led me to a nervous break-down. I believe the reason I am not employed today despite trying is to come and spread truth of Jesus. Jesus said you shall not live on bread alone. So I never had a job drop from the sky but instead God prefers to be at home helping my mother and witnessing for Jesus.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you judge correctly this time. thanks
  Remember my statement, "i bought the money message THEN."? I know that it was God, because I was at a point in my growth where I needed him to prove himself. I did not "ask" God to make me richer. You were not listening to my post at all; only focusing on picking it apart. I had not asked for more money. I merely was looking for "evidence" on my own. I had gone to this service at a church I had never attended to see a woman prophetess that I had heard was "the bomb".
  I had been seeking God and reading his word and coming to know him.
  He knows what I need before I even ask. i was looking for him. He knew that. He gave me what I needed. BIG evidence that he was there listening, and would do what he said when I do what he said.
  Money was not my motivation, but God knew that. I sought him in secret. He rewarded me openly. He has no problem providing riches to those who seek after and are faithful to, him. see Job
  Claire, you are ALMOST there, but you are running after the wrong adoration. The bible is God's word. As his word, it is not misleading. It is NOT tainted.
  The minds that try to understand it however, are.
  Good day!
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  And living on others money, right?
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ja, the rise of unemployment around the world really sucks. I could prostitute myself but I'm afraid I'd eat the profits for drugs to dull the disgust.
  
  So wake up to the real world. There are millions of people like me around the world. I keep getting turned away because I don't have experience.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't give up Claire, the right job will happen by sooner or later.
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Rad Man.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're considering yourself to be a critical thinker . It's you choice . If some of us, choose differently , leave us alone. So, you made decision to think as the most of the other skeptiks. That's fine too.
  Following you "confession" one learns tha all of you are in search for some kind of stability of your minds, since you frequently " chage OUR (your) minds."
  Seemingly you indicates being threatened by some who do not accept your " indoctrination "- as understood from your writings.
  Going after " genea " you're using tricks like " even Christians would disagree with you 'her' kind of blind faith , accepting everything based on what you WANT To be true and what actually is.""
  ... talking "Christians?" She isn't one of them . ..
  Not only you, but all who are on the opposite side of the Most High God's TRUTH are threatened by "her" steadfast FAITH , seen of your" nothing can possibly refute your own belief."
  That's fantastic . You shall take note , that there are people who fit the category of " God's children." These received the WORD ...and " those who receive HIM (John 1:1-3) he gave authority to become children of God, to those who have FAITH in him ( those who believe in him) . They were born , not from human stock, nor from the will of the man, but come from God" ( John 1:12.13,
  See, necessity demands you to understand that we - every human being - are the spirit living in the visible form called the body. Realizing this helps to understand that under certain procedure , you spiritual you - the real you - is given choice , to come back from the oposite , to God , Satan's family, and by that unfathonable gift of FAITH to join the family of the Most High God. Once you're change the lordship, easy understandable becomes the position , g e n e a is in.
  To all those " outside" she is doing great favor by carrying conversation , sharing her experience as the child of God who can't afford the "luxury " to deny the joy unspeakable .
  To accept a challenge to " follow" the best scholars, theologian , if they aren't born of God, - no chance.
  After all, there isn't time for foolishness . Like , accepting as real the scripture you wants us to take seriously. We do take seriously all which are correctly translated. It's actually 1Peter 3 :15, saying " Reverence the Anoited One ( Christ) as Lord in your hearts . Always be ready if you are questioned , to speak out in defense of the hope you all share." The word " reason" is voluntarily added by translators in English version of KJ and some others. ( I've checked two of orig. Greek text, just to be sure )
  All what is evident genaea is even fulfilling the next requirement " but do so gently and respectfully. Be sure that your conscience is clear, so that the quality of your Anoited character may put to shame those who speak against you and malign you." v.16 TNT translation .
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand the point that you're trying to convey, and you're not making it very clear at all. But as to your assertion that I'm "threatened" by someone, you're dead wrong - and you're in NO position to make such baseless assertions about people you know nothing about. Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it true. I'm not "threatened" by anyone - least of all anyone involved in this discussion.
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bBereanposted 11 years ago
Genaea, you already know they are believing what their religion tells them, and it isn't worth the time, but for your own edification you may want to check out http://www.creationtoday.org/
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It is well worth it. Lives are at stake. I have nothing else to do. I am ok. The edification comes, and it comes from the father. I will take a look at your link though. Thanks
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Genaea, I am sorry if you thought I meant they weren't worth it. I pray for them, but they are analytical like I am. You have had a more spiritual path, and to be honest I wish I had. We come to the same place but by different ways. For folks who are analytical, they need reason and proof, which is fine and can be provided...but not arguing from the middle. I didn't stand down because I don't have answers. I did so because this will be an unfruitful approach for what they need. They can't imagine how an analytical person could believe.
  
  God has given me many responsibilities, and I have longed for opportunity to spell out this approach as there are people who will not be reached any other way. Unfortunately I already have to run on 2 - 4 hrs sleep per night and making time to write is difficult. I will work on getting some hubs that will start from a clean slate and show how reason, logic and science will lead you to the truth. It may be a slow process, but if I wait until I really have time it will never happen. My first is almost done.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Congratulations on your almost new work. I know it is a process.
  I know that you did not mean that they were not worth it. It is a popular opinion that we should not "argue" about the scriptures. It is viewed as a stumblingblock. All I have to say to that is... How can they hear...?
  If it is reason that they want, it is reason that they will get. Eventually, they will see the err in the thinking about the spiritual scriptures and change. Or they will walk away with more seeds than they can carry. Win/win. All will be exposed to the truth. It is promised. As you said, some need different tactics. God's got all kinds of "warriors". Jesus was bold and he was persistent. No one argued with him, that I know of. His opposers didn't talk, they beheaded.
  We are not going to be able to stop going in circles and they will not be able to stop asking questions that they really don't want the answers to. The word stands. Maybe they will see how spirit works inside the mind and reason. We reason. We just reason along certain lines. As they do. They just do not want to admit that their ONLY reservation is God. Anything else can answer their questions, even if it is with a guess or a flat out, I don't know. They would rather accept, I don't know, than, God is the very reason. Well, that has got to stop or not.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "no one argued with him"? Really, there are a lot of Jews who didn't believe him. Why is that. They were the witnesses and yet they don't believe. Perhaps the miracles weren't real for surely if they were they'd have followed. Only a few according to the bible believed him in his time. Can you imagine him coming back to day and performing all kind miracles as described in the bible and only having a handful of believers?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  People find all kinds of reasons to believe what they want no matter what they see or hear.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  EXACTLY! That is EXACTLY what all of us have been trying to say - and that thinking works BOTH WAYS. Congratulations!
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It's not my birthday...
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Your completely correct in your statement "reason, logic and science will lead you to the truth". Unfortunately it won't lead to the truth you are looking for. It have already lead to the truth that the bible is not an history book and can't be taking as fact.
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HeadlyvonNogginposted 11 years ago
The moon clearly provides light because it happens to be made of a material that's highly reflective. Just because it's not the 'source' doesn't mean it doesn't still serve the purpose stated. Without it, especially during the winter months, every night would be pitch black.

Not that you'll often find me defending religion, but in the case of Galileo the church was originally very open to his finding. The pope at that time invited him to come present it. It was only when Galileo went to the bible and attempted to reinterpret passages related to the motions of the heavens outside of the church's 'authority' that they took issue.

Of course, by those standards I'd be arrested as a heretic too. So, I can't say I totally agree with them, but it's not as you put it. Science finds its foundations in the church. Many of those who made the most significant contributions early on were often done using church resources. And a vast majority of science's forefathers were themselves Christians. Including Galileo. He went back to the bible with this new information to see what could maybe be learned from it. Much like I do.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Headly..., have you done any research into the scientific work of the Arabian people? I have the impression there was an enormous amount of knowledge there, long before the time of Jesus and the Roman Occupation; Am I correct?
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genaeaposted 11 years ago
Come on people!!! Definition of reason, definition of light. I'm waiting.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hi genaea,
  you are very right in your doing. Let me assure you, there in that text 1 Peter 3:15 in original Greek version doesn't exist the word " reason " only some English translations , incl . the King James inserted that word...( whoever wants to convert you, actually pointed to 2. Peter 3:15 , intentionally ?)
  Your " battle " is deserving highest esteem , admiration for the information you're providing to the children of God and to those who aren't yet.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  More is comming , please bear with one who is not as fast as the rest of you .
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. The warmth is felt. I am so not worthy. The Lord has provided me with a reason to scream and shout his praises on a daily basis. He's been that good. He walked with me, when I thought that I was lost. I'm grateful. That is what you see. The father does the hard part. I'm just a good typist.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think it's clear that english isn't your first language - you're not exactly making yourself clear. However, I would like to point out that you have a fundamental misconception. I am not trying to "convert" or, in my case, "deconvert" anyone. I'm simply participating in an open discussion that is open for any/all participants, is it not?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Though English is your first language, and you have it "all together" you understand less of this English conversation than the person that you are now "putting in the spotlight"
  Your understanding is more of a superficial nature. He understands the deeper things. Your sarcasm and uppity disposition are not necessary. This is a public conversation and it is also international. Please excuse the language barriers.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I understand that, but I don't understand what he's trying to say. What I DO understand, however, is that he's making baseless assumptions and accusations about me that are at best fundamentally untrue, and at worst downright lies. I don't appreciate being lied about, and I would like it to stop. Kthanks
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hallo genea
  You are very correct, the English is my latest new language . Being fully aware my inadequacy, my struggle is to survive . Nothing ever came easy in my life. However , the " help" needed was always there by provision of The Lord of lords and the King of kings.
  You are also providing help just beeing kind to talk to me , pointing out to my unintended mistake . When I've said " whoever wants to convert you..." -- I understood from ungoing discussion that the " one" who is advising you to follow some renown scholars and authors to accept their reasonings for your " belief " that was/is to me their attempt to convert you .
  Accept, please my apology for leaving an impression that you are one doing converting . Please, forgive me . And if I have a slight chance for favor, please talk to me, openly as you do . It's a tremendous help to se myself by the eyes of well intending people .
  Being aware , that you do not need my " defending " you, my well intended interpretation " who we are" as the children of God, apparently has failed.
  In he future, my focus will be choosing words more carefully, to communicate in proper manner .
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Reason:
  a : a statement offered in explanation or justification <gave reasons that were quite satisfactory>
  b : a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon>
  c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact <the reasons behind her client's action>
  d : the thing that makes some fact intelligible : cause <the reason for earthquakes> <the real reason why he wanted me to stay — Graham Greene>
  2
  a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways : intelligence (2) : proper exercise of the mind (3) : sanity
  b : the sum of the intellectual powers
  
  The key words to remember here are: Justification, rational ground, sufficient ground, logical defense - none of which you have provided.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! you have put a lot of thought into your definition. What dictionary are you using, by the way?
  ok, I will attempt to fit myself into your tiny little box. Here we go.
  
  Justification- I love the Lord because he has made himself evident to me on many occasions. I have seen him throughout my life. Now, this may not justify anything for you, but you asked me about MY reason.
  
  Rational ground- It is very rational to believe the bible as it is because it agrees with the spirit within me and it never fails. The Lord authorized the book with his spirit and ensured that the word would be preserved for future generations, with pertinent information for all to come to know him. When I think about scriptures, I have an analytic awareness because I want to fully understand it. It never ever disappoints. The contradictions have all been addressed in this conversation and I am still standing on solid ground. Though it may not sound "rational" to you, you asked me about MY reason.
  
  Sufficient ground- As you can probably tell already, you will not get you the answers that you seek. Nothing that I say is sufficient to you. But the Father, Son, and Holy spirit, are all I need. Though this does not sufficiently quench your thirst (because I know) you asked me about MY reason.
  
  Logical defense- seeing that my God is sufficient, his word is rational, and he IS justification in a nutshell, it is only LOGICAL to come to the conclusion that in his arms is where I will be. Now I know that it makes no "logical" sense to you, but you asked me for MY reason.
  
  K???
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  “Justification- I love the Lord because he has made himself evident to me on many occasions. I have seen him throughout my life. “
  You first made a god based on what you are taught and from the bible and then later rationalized all your experience based on that.
  
  “Rational ground- It is very rational to believe the bible as it is because it agrees with the spirit within me and it never fails.”
  Rationality is not based on spirit or experience. What you are saying is ‘it is rational for you to believe in bible because you like it.’
  “ The Lord authorized the book with his spirit and ensured that the word would be preserved for future generations, with pertinent information for all to come to know him. “
  God didn’t authorize anybody to write a book for him. If he wanted he could do it better than anybody. People wrote a book and put it on god to gain authority and suit their end.
  “When I think about scriptures, I have an analytic awareness because I want to fully understand it. It never ever disappoints. The contradictions have all been addressed in this conversation and I am still standing on solid ground. Though it may not sound "rational" to you, you asked me about MY reason.”
  No contradictions are addressed. You are simply making up your own theories which have no connection with facts.
  
  “But the Father, Son, and Holy spirit, are all I need. “
  What you made up is enough for you.
  
  “Logical defense- seeing that my God is sufficient,”
  Your god is not sufficient; he is an emotional murderer, a bully with an inferiority complex.
  “ his word is rational,”
  You yourself agreed to Claire it is not rational
  “ and he IS justification in a nutshell, it is only LOGICAL to come to the conclusion that in his arms is where I will be. Now I know that it makes no "logical" sense to you, but you asked me for MY reason.”
  You simply are making up reasons to continue believe what you believe.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  More kicking and screaming. You never paste the entire point I made, you pick it apart and throw in silly little selfish and spiritually ignorant phrases at the end. Those that you have practiced becsuse of what YOU "like".
  I guess I could cut and paste for you, but it wastes time. I have no desire to prove you wrong. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. You think in riddles. No wonder you came to the conclusion of what to call yourself this time. Riddle666... cute
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Only the spiritually alive embrace the Word of God inherently ;
  The spiritually dead can't comprehend it at all.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There are many online dictionaries available, please check the meaning of 'spirit' and 'death'.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I did. Thanks .
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I did. Thanks .
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm using standard Miriam Webster's dictionary. It is a specific definition, and I'm guessing that it's for a rather specific reason. See, the use of the word reason, there? Little bit of irony, nevermind, moving on. Incidentally, it is not "my" tiny little box - you asked for a definition of reason, and I gave you the dictionary's definition. I'm sorry if that makes it something hard for you to fit into, but you squeeze the idea of god into a tiny little box, so it should be something you're used to.
  
  You're right - I did ask for your reason, but I fear that I may have to give you the definition for more words, because you seem to lack a fundamental understanding of the greater implications derived from their use.
  
  I guess my first question, under justification, is I understand that you claim to have had numerous personal experiences. How do you know that it was the god of the bible that made those experiences happen, and not Zeus or Krishna or Apollo or Thor or Allah? I'm guessing it's because you had a bias towards your particular deity already. If you had been born in, say, Afghanistan, there is a 90% chance that you would be a Muslim right now, and you'd be using the same old justifications to rationalize a belief in Allah. You were raised here, which made you predisposed to christianity. Worldwide, the probability of choosing a religion that is not the mainstream religion of your particular culture is rather miniscule. So how do you know?
  
  Rational Ground - the lord actually never authorized the bible. There's nothing in it that says "thou shalt make a book and it shall be my holy word". The only proof that the bible was even inspired by god is because the bible says so - which is exactly what all religious books claim to make them more valid to those that already believe. That doesn't make it true. If you were to believe every claim of a holy book that was supposedly inspired by god, you would be a polytheist, but you're not. Why is that? Again, this comes down to bias on your part. You want to believe the bible, so you do. The fact of the matter is that you have no good reason to. It just fits in to what you're already predisposed to believe.
  
  While it's probably true that nothing you say will be sufficient for ME, personally, here's a challenge for you. Ultimately, according to your scripture, god wants everyone to be saved and come to know and love him. He doesn't want to send anyone to hell (ironically, since he created it and all). You may not know what to say that would change my mind. I don't know what would change my mind, but if your god knows everything, HE certainly knows. Ask him. Pray that he will guide you to the truth that would be sufficient for a former believer who has turned away. Since it fits in with gods purpose, it should be easy - ask him. If you ask him, and respond to me and your message fails, then either 1) god didn't answer you at all 2) you misunderstood what god told you to say 3) no god exists to hear your prayer or 4) he doesn't actually want everyone to be saved, since he couldn't care enough to tell you what to say to me. Go ahead, I dare ya. If your god is everything you say he is, this is a lot easier than raising someone from the dead. You may have a convert on your hands, just imagine how much glory that could bring to god if you succeed.
  
  One more thing - it's funny that you bring up the trinity. You know that's not scripturally based, and it didn't exist until the 3rd or 4th century, right?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.
  Thanks. You let me go waaaay back on that one. our God is not a vaudville participant. He asks you to prove yourself to him. Faith is what he asks. If you do not believe he is, how can he do anything for you? You busy looking in the OTHER direction. I will give you an example: when the Lord performs in your life, you attribute it to... What was that? Chance, coincidence, intuition, something else, I don't think I have it "down" but you get my drift.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  that's a coward's way out. God temps us. He challenges us. (if he existed at all). Jesus said if you ask anything in his name, he will do it. Since it is god's will that everyone be saved, you're not asking for something unreasonable. How is that testing god to ask for his knowledge?
  
  You know that if you asked god to show you what to say, you'd fall flat on your face. Clearly your faith isn't as strong as you claim it is, if you're refusing to accept such a simple challenge. Only a coward refuses to ask for something, knowing that their answer would be empty. You're supposed to be strong in the lord. You're supposed to be willing to demonstrate and provide a reason for the things that you believe. The disciples could heal the sick, cure the blind, make the lame walk again. Faith the size of a mustard seed, remember?
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TB Bullockposted 11 years ago
This is not necessarily a reply to any particular post, but simply a statement to encourage discussion. While there may not be scientific or factual evidence to support any sort of fideism, there are some aspects of life that need to be examined. People are born with a tendency to search for a meaning for their existence. John Gray, a leading atheist scholar, as well as Sigmund Freud agree with this point. Throughout people's lives, they seem to search for some kind of greater meaning, and according to Gray and Freud as well as Frederick Nietzche, they will never find this meaning. Is everybody in agreement that people do, indeed, search for a greater meaning in their life?
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, to me, the search is placed in the heart by God. He gives each of us an inkling of him. Some of us don't/wont catch on. We look for it in "the universe". Relief is not there.
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  TB, absolutely. Knowing there must be purpose..., in fact "knowing" anything, is beyond the realm of science. Very frustrating for those wishing materialism could explain it all away. Imagine if they could. They're reward would be hopelessness as they are striving to prove all is meaningless, rather than consider accountability to a Creator. Yes, everyone has that drive to understand why. Even those who deny it exists betray the presence of the voice within by their obsession with protesting against it.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  actually, you're just incorrect in your assumption. While it may be uncomfortable for you to admit that many people who were christians are no longer believers, it happens all the time. You justify that away by saying they were never really "saved" because it makes you feel better - but that assertion doesn't make it true.
  
  Additionally, I'm not a materialist.
  
  There is no "voice" that I'm protesting against. Once again, this is a public forum, and that means that everyone is invited to participate if they want to. I'm simply enjoying a discussion. That's all.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  For clarity: Those who belong to God are not able to be "plucked" from his hand. If you "once" were Christian, and you no longer believe the message, maybe you were not really his in the first place. The bible also says, "Not all who cry Lord, Lord are his." So maybe, he is right.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  and maybe he's not. Neither of you are in any position to judge my current disbelief, or my former belief. God is the judge, according to your doctrine, is he not? Therefore, to just assume that anyone who once believed and no longer does wasn't really a "true christian" is a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy and an absurd one, at that.
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  TB Bullockposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. Logical and empirical conclusions when examining people's emotional and psychological makeup point to the fact that people definitely search for a deeper meaning. Many aspects of life, including love, war, and simple human reactions, cannot be broken down to scientific conclusions. While scientific evidence, hard facts, and actual statistics are preferable, I believe the claim that some aspects of existence require different explanations is above speculation. If anybody has an objection to this statement, i will gladly debate it.
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genaeaposted 11 years ago
LIGHT BULB MOMENT:
We have been speaking in paralell about critical thinking of the scriptures. When I critically think about the scriptures, I am using the scriptures to do that thinking. That is where I think we are slipping up. Not everyone agrees with the bible as I do. I cannot go to just anyone for knowledge about scripture. I must go to spirit for spiritual matters. The bible suffices.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  genaea, I have only just come into this forum.... It's been going for only 5 weeks and you have got over 3000 posts! I don't have time or inclination to wade through all of those posts, so I have gone back to the first pageful.
  My first point to make is that you, like so many "born-agains," continue to look outside of yourself, to the bible and to your fictitious god for the answers to your life. You refer to satan as though "he" is someone or something outside, an entity to be faced and thrashed by another entity that's fighting for you.
  That "satan" is nothing but what is inside of you, in your mind, in your everyday life. Don't bother looking in the bible for it.
  That "saviour" is nothing but the enlightenment which you can find from inside of your life, your conscience, your deeper understanding of your own truth.
  
  That "critical thinking" which you have recently spoken about cannot do you any good at all if it is solely rooted in a book called the bible. You are only using that book to justify your way of thinking, and that is not "critical thinking." This is why you have not moved on one iota from previous hubs and your original posting in this Hub. Your mind is stuck.
  
  I suspect this is the reason so many people are getting fed up with you. Sure, your like-minded christians will agree with you. But they too are stuck in their own image, unable to hop out of the mirror.
  
  Please yourself.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Johnny, I remember you clearly. Yes, we have spoken before. It is so good that I did not have to "fight" with you too. I am just about exhausted.
  As for your post, it has been a really long forum. Many points have been touched upon. You are familiar with the gist; we have had the conversation before.
  Critical thinking is just that. I ensure for myself that the bible is a sound document. I check it against itself and if there are many contradictions, there should be no problem there, because my criticism will catch the contraction. I believe God. Any and everything that goes against him is hogwash in my opinion. Thus, the "stuck" of which you speak. But you are familiar with me. You know how i am.
  I welcome any and all comments. I am not stuck on one subject. But if you discuss with me, you do so from a biblical perspective. I ensure it. That is my angle. I cannot step outside of that which is spiritual to check spiritual sources. It does not work.
  So, I am sorry if that "feeds you up" but, you are welcome to not join the conversation or just leave it if that suits you better. No hostility intended, if that is how it appears.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Now I know why I Ieft you and Claire to your arguments. Do either of you ever get out of your cocoons? After so long sitting at your computers and playing a sort of Biblical Badmington, too and fro with others, have you gained any converts?
  
  Obviously you enjoy the arguments, so I will leave the room again because there is so much more to life for me. There's a beautiful world out here, devoid of any theoretical, judgmental god. Try it sometime.
  
  Byeeee.
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  
  Johnny, I could say the same for you. Do you ever think of the possibilities of the spiritual realm or do you prefer to me in your cocoon?
  
  My goal is to not convert people but perhaps plant the seed. I also enjoy speaking on this subject.
  
  Would you say Riddle666 and Radman, for example, enjoy arguments? Have you not argued on this forum?
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have to back you up here Claire, I do enjoy the conversations. I have to admit that I understand I will not be changing any adult minds because these are set, but planting the seed of doubt and critical thinking in a developing mind seems feasible.
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone is going to drive themselves crazy trying to convince someone who eludes questions but insists they are right. If one is going to do that, then they need to answer every question.
  
  Jesus always planted the seed. He did not force anyone to convert and He didn't threaten those who didn't believe in Him. In fact, He commended the faith of those who were gentiles.
  
  We as human beings like to come to our own conclusions and be in control. If we are threatened and manipulated by others who want others to see their way, we are going to resist. We are not going to take them seriously. However, if one states their case and allows the others to come to their own conclusions then you'd have a better chance of being taken seriously.
  
  In other words, we must give people space.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Honestly, I don't think I have argued. Might have expressed a few opinions, and asked a few questions, for sure. But argument is so unfruitful.
  
  (Yes, I have looked in again.... saw a beautiful post from Granny and felt moved to reply.)
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying you haven't exchanged some cross words recently?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can certainly get cross with you, Claire, when you don't seem unable to step outside of your closet. However, that is your choice and who am I to deny you that dubious freedom?
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's not the point. We all land up arguing here.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Here is the problem.
  
  You don't seem to understand the term "critical thinking".
  
  This may sound a little condescending and for that I'm sorry, but we have two words in the term "critical" and "thinking".
  
  Critical in this case would mean: expressing or involving an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature.
  
  Thinking in this case would mean: the process of using one's mind to consider or reason about something or a person's ideas or opinions.
  
  So when we put the two together the term "critical thinking" would mean: to analysis the merits and faults of a work of literature and give your own idea or opinion.
  
  Your problems is your not giving your own opinion your just saying the scripture is your opinion. Therefore you can't claim to be thinking critically.
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  Gardensgrannyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  As a christian, I can not and will not try to 'prove' my faith, nor will I try to 'dis-prove' the historical facts that have been thrown out there.
  I believe in God the father, Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit and in that each has a place in the divine. God as the creator, Jesus the savior and the teacher and the Holy Spirit as the divine guide in my daily life. I talk to the father and the son daily and thrive to have constant contact with the holy spirit.
  I can only lift up to the lord those who do not believe, have their hearts searched by the holiest and place them in Gods hands. I cannot change them, I can only love as Jesus directed me to do. I see God's handi work in my daily life and in nature.
  My grand daughter, being in the public school system asked me a while ago , "Nana, do you believe in The Big Bang Theory? In evolution? ".
  This is a child that has grown up in the church and has established her beliefs. My response was as follows, " I believe that God created the heavens and the earth and in the beginning God said :'Let there be light", and that there most certainally must have been a big bang, that I believe that the big bang theory was created by those who do not know God as far as evolution, I believe that each species is able to 'adapt' to it's changing environment, I do not believe for a second that a species has the ability to 'change' even over time from a reptile to a mammal or vise versa".
  I will not argue with you if you do not believe as I do, I will pray for you and ask God to hold you close and to watch over you. Just as I ask God to watch over me daily and to hold me close. I will lift up to him my needs and know they will be fulfilled.
  I can see how man can look at man and be an athiest,
  I can not see how man can look into the eyes of a child,
  can smell the flowers in bloom,
  can lay in a green pasture gazing as the clouds roll by
  and say there is no God.
  May God bless and keep each of you.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's nice, but please don't indoctrinate the young with lies. I don't want North America to look like Europe in the middle ages. Please give the young a change to use there own minds and think critically about everything.
  
  I know what you believe, but stating it over and over is a form of brain washing. If you say it enough times you'll believe it and my guess is you've said it over and over, most likely starting from a young age in church. The Big Bang Theory and evolution has nothing to do with each other. They are merely how a secular society studies the earth in an attempt to understand it. Science cares not for religion in it's search to understand the earth, you certainly don't have to understand it or believe it, but to do so because of a 2000 year old book is ludicrous. The big bang theory is an educated guess as to how things started. Evolution is fact and based on overwhelming evidence.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How very unfortunate, your granddaughter asks you a questions about the science she's learning in school and you respond with faith based nonsense. Obviously, she now thinks you've been indoctrinated to believe that nonsense and will probably not be bothered to ask you any more questions and most likely your relationship with her will now begin to change dramatically.
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  genaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Bless you!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Granny, although I do not accept your beliefs, I can understand and respect your sentiments. I would never ask you to drop anything of what you believe, because I can live with it. You are obviously a very loving person and I suspect you would help anyone in the world who needed your mothering abilities and talents, regardless of whether they were religious, non-religious, Buddhist, christian or whatever. That is the nature of non-judgmental, unconditional love.
  
  I do not have to change my beliefs, but would try to apply my love in the same way as above. You and I would be equally likely to do the job of loving somewhat imperfectly.
  
  Thus we have equal rights and equal responsibilities and can live side by side in this world.
  
  Don't you think?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  All you've managed to accomplish is to misrepresent the process of critical thinking and diminish it to nothing short of willful gullibility.
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Rad Manposted 11 years ago
Just noticed genaea is gone!
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lilmamakimposted 11 years ago
I have been following this thread for about a week now, and I finally couldnt resist the urge to speak any longer. I suppose I classify myself as a christian. Maybe not your typical christian as I do have questions, and I am open to all possibilities. I used to be very sceptical about whether God was real.But the personal things I have experienced in my life led me to a point that I simply couldnt deny that he exists in some way or form. I believe the bible is a great tool, but obviously since it has been translated, there are probably mistakes made. Im going to tell about the things I experienced, not because Im trying to "convince" anyone of anything, but to simply allow you a glimpse into my life, and let you decide for yourselves how you view these incidences.

I recall the very 1st time I experienced something very profound, and it scared the living daylights out of me. I was about 15 yrs old, and I was in bed still sleeping. I was having this crazy dream about my younger brother who lived in another state with my mom. (I was living with my grandparents) In my dream, my brother was just standing before me and calling out to me, saying, "Kim, please help me! I need your help now! He was saying this over and over again and as he was saying it, he was shrinking smaller and smaller. Just as he was about to disappear completely, my grandma woke me up, and said, "Kimberly, Kenny is on the phone, he wants to talk to you". I told her, "Wow, really??? I was just having the wierdest dream about him". So I got up and went to the phone, and after hellos and what have you been doing, he proceeded to inform me that he had been getting nothing to eat except a single small bag of chips and one can of soda per day! The phone literally dropped out of my hands, and I became almost hysterical. Mind you now, I was only a 15 yr old child, and had NEVER had anything like that happen before. Mt grandma had to get the phone and ask my brother what was going on. He told her, and she then assured him she was gonna help him and told him hang on a minute so she could try to find out why that had upset me THAT much. I told her about my dream, and as soon as she heard, she smiled, and said Kimberly, it isnt anything for you to be scared of. Your dream was symbolic. That is a God given gift, to get a message like that. He was simply letting you know your brother was in need of help, and the shrinking was just an indicator that he was losing wait because he wasnt eating enough. I cried with relief because when my brother told me that, I immediately thought my dream was telling me he was dying. Thats why I got so upset. Well even though I had it explained, I told her I didnt like dreaming like that, and I didnt ever want to dream like that again! This is when I 1st discovered that my grandma had had the same things happen to her. She asked me, Kimberly, do you remember when you and Julie (my best friend) skipped school once and the minute you walked in from "school" I asked you where have you been?" I told her, "yes, I remember. I tried to lie, but you insisted you KNEW I hadnt been there, and finally, I gave it up, and asked you how did you know? Had the school called? Did someone see me and tell you? Did you see me?" Her answer to that was, "No, no one told me anything, and I didnt see you. I just knew because I knew. I didnt understand what she meant at the time, and I just left it alone, it didnt matter, because bottom line she knew the truth. Well, after reminding me of that incident, she told me that the reason she had known, had happened the same way as my dream with Kenny had happened. She told me she had been knowing things in that way since she was young also. Ok, NOW Im really freaked out! I said, "So you are telling me your psychic or something, and thats what just happened to me???" She told me, "Well honey, I dont call it psychic. I believe its a spiritual gift of message from God, and that he sends these messages to me when he feels its something I should be aware of for whatever reason." Now, you would think that would be enough to convince a naive 15 yr old. Nope. Not me. I got mad! Lol...I told my grandma, "Well, "God can keep his messages!!! I dont WANT them!!! Yea, I still didnt wanna really believe it! My grandma just smiled in that oh so loving and patient way of hers, and said, "Its ok to feel that way, I didnt want it either. But it cant be willed away like that. When He feels you NEED to know something, hes going to tell you. Whether you decide to listen or not, is up to you." So, that was my 1st experience, and I still couldnt accept it, and eventually it just kind of faded from my thoughts over a period of time. It was actually several years later before another incident occurred. I was married with 2 kids the next time something happened, and honestly, Im not sure of the signifance of this, but I know it was a similar experience. My husband and I were in bed sleeping,(yes, everyone of these incidences were dreams) it was the middle of the night, and all of a sudden I sat straight up in bed very fast, and was wide awake. I just sat there a moment thinking, why did I wake up like this? Thats strange. My husband, half asleep, asked whats wrong? I said, I dont know really, I just suddenly woke up wide awake, and I just feel wierd. He said, "Well, just lay back down and try to go back to sleep. Maybe it was just a dream and you dont remember what it was about." So...shaking it off I layed back down, and no sooner than my head hit the pillow we heard tires screech and a LOUD crashing noise! We both jumped up out of bed, and looked out the bedroom window which faced the front yard, and there was a car that had crashed into our yard and was caught on the fence. The driver was revving the engine, and trying like crazy to get that car off the fence. We threw our robes on and ran outside. The woman saw us and started talking crazy. She was beyond drunk! Yelling at us to help her get her car moved so she could go home! Seriously??? Lol...well we informed her that her car wasnt going anywhere as it was about 3 ft off the ground caught on our fence. A neighbor had heard the commotion too, and had already called the police. When they got there she was still trying to say to them too that she wanted her car off the fence so she could just go home. Obviously that wasnt gonna happen. Everything got settled and taken care of, but to this day I dont know why I woke up so suddenly like that. I mean obviously it had SOMETHING to do with what happened just 2 minutes later, but I dont get the significance of why??? Well that incident just kind of confused me, and although I thought it was odd, I didnt give it much thought after a couple weeks. About 6 months later, and this ones a doozy!!! Even though it was a dream my grandma actually had, it was the point I KNEW what I know, because I know, lol...yea, grandmas words came back to haunt me. My grandma came to me about 6 months after the car incident, and said, "Kimberly, I need to tell you something. I dont know who, when, where, or how, but I had a dream about a house fire, and all I can tell you is that I feel compelled to tell you please be on guard and be careful! I need to tell one other person specifically, I dont know which of you this will happen to, but the 2 of you are the ones I feel compelled to tell. The other person was an elderly woman, and my grandma just worried that it may be her and with her age it would be real bad for her. Well about 2 weeks later MY house caught on fire! I tried to put it out but quickly realized I couldnt. We didnt have phone service at the time, and I panicked and grabbed my boys and ran to the neighbors for the fire department to be called and then realized my 1 yr old baby girl was still in her room napping! I screamed to my neighbor watch the boys my baby is still in there! I ran back and tried to go in after her, that fast the fire had grown so big I couldnt get to her from inside. I was screaming hysterically!!! I ran back outside and screamed GOD IF YOU ARE THERE PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO GET MY BABY OUT!!!!!! Suddenly I just felt myself being pulled in the direction of the basement and I didnt fight it, I ran down there and first thing I saw was just this old carpet sweeper sitting there, and I was being told, just in my thoughts of course, not out loud, to take it back up and break her bedroom window out. Ever heard of a backdraft??? I hadnt! If I had Im not sure I would have done it, and my baby girl would have died in there. I broke that window out climbed in and grabbed my baby girl and handed her out the window to someone and climbed back out myself. The sirens could be heard by that time, they were about 2 blocks away. After the firemen got the fire out, the chief started asking questions and was told what I had done, and he asked them where was i? He came to me, and said, honey, can you tell me what happened and how you got your baby out? I told him the story, and pointed to the carpet sweeper that was still laying by the bedroom window, he walked over and poked his head in, and turned to look at me, with shock and disbelief on his face, He said, you really did, didnt you? The glass is on the inside. He started looking at me, and noticed a bunch of bloody small cuts on my arms, hands, and legs, and pointed it out and said that must be how you got these cuts. I hadnt noticed them to be honest, until he pointed it out. He said are you ok? Are you in any pain? I told him no, and he said ok, well we're gonna have you looked at anyway, and get those cleaned up. I said ok, but why did you look at me like I was crazy or lying about the window? He shook his head, and said, honey, when you did that it should have caused the room to explode killing you your baby, and anyone else close by that part of the house. He then proceeded to explain to me what a backdraft was. I literally began to tremble from head to toe. I nearly passed out when he explained the "scientific" facts to me. He said, honey, God or not, that is what SHOULD have happened, And Im telling you, that right before we arrived about 2 blocks away, we saw and heard a loud explosion and it shot straight up in the air. There is now a hole in the roof right outside the baby's bedroom door!!! Coincidence you might say? Doubt it. It defies "scientific" explanation. That isnt all either. Next day, I went inside to see if anything might be salvagable. People Im telling you, that fire was so hot and destructive, the refrigerator was a melted lump on the floor, unrecognizable as a fridge, except for where it sat. Well in the dining room there was a desk. It looked like it was a piece of charcoal, but I tried to pull open a drawer anyway. It started crumbling in my hands. So I just started pulling pieces off until I could see inside. When I looked in there, there was ONE item on top of all my important papers not even singed by smoke, sitting there. It was the bible my grandma had given me, that my grandpa had given to her!!! Completely untouched! Coincidence? Hmmm...Next, in the livingroom, I went to the coffee table which was in the same condition as the desk, crumbled at a touch. I crumbled the door off and inside there were all my pictures of my kids and wedding, and family, with my BAPTISMAL CERTIFICATE in between the 2 photo albums completely untouched!!! The magazines and books that were inside were singed and burnt! But not the photo albums that had that certificate in between them! NOW! If just one of those things, maybe two, had happened, I might say, coincidence. But with all FOUR things together, Grandmas dream, The untouched bible, The untouched albums and certificate, AND MOSTLY, The broken window, There was no more denial for me. I believed 110% after that! This is all true, and verifiable. I put all this down here because I felt this needed to be heard and I may start a thread of my own for it because I want everyone to have the chance to see this and decide on their own whether he is real or not. For me, no one could ever make me doubt HIM again! YOU BE THE JUDGE FOR YOURSELF!
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Your Grandmother fed you a line. There are two simple explanations for that. You heard Kenny's name when your Grandmother woke you up and had a dream, or it is simply coincidental. People focus on one dream while thousands of others never make a connection.
  
  Sorry, but you and your Granny have no special powers. You're both merely focusing on coincidences.
  
  Nonsense, there is no way your Grandmother could ever know that.
  
  You both could have easily been awakened by the car screeching tires down the street before it crashed into your fence.
  
  No, there probably was a simple explanation, but it didn't reveal itself to you at the time. Of course, by this time in your life, you're beginning to believe you have special powers, which increases your bias towards such innocuous events.
  
  Absolutely. There is no reason it shouldn't be coincidence considering bibles are given to people all the time and wind up burning up in house fires.
  
  And yet, there is absolutely nothing that would show you have special powers or any of those events had anything to do with God.
  
  Sorry, you have no special powers.
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  lilmamakimposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do believe you so eloquently bypassed the backdraft part. : ) And my grandma was a very intelligent woman, who did NOT spout non-sense, thank you. And as I said, when she first told me that, I completely rejected it! I still didnt believe. You have a great way of maybe not reading very well, or simply ignoring the parts YOUR mind dont want to accept, same as I did. And I didnt claim to have "magic or special powers", just stating a fact about what happened and how it happened, AND I beg your pardon, but she DID know just because she knew, that I had skipped school, my grandmother was NOT a liar! She didnt have a decietful bone in her body! I dont mind hearing other opinions, but maybe people might be a little more willing to listen to you if you werent so disrespectful and rude in the way you speak. I have posted something elsewhere, maybe you might find it as interesting as I did. As I said before, Im always open to any opinion, therefore I do "look" for information.
  
  http://rcg.org/books/dge.html
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I read that. So what?
  
  Maybe so, but she was treating you the same way a parent would treat a child by telling them Santa left the presents under the tree.
  
  The fact is you're focusing on coincidence and nothing more.
  
  That website is garbage.
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  lilmamakimposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Really? The scientific way a back draft works, is mere coincidence???
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, it is about you focusing on coincidence and assigning it as something special from God.
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  lilmamakimposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I repeat: A backdraft is a scientific fact, not a coincidence. What happened, scientifically speaking, is impossible. So what other explanation is there?
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Your biased opinion on whatever occurred most certainly isn't going to be considered 'scientifically impossible' just because you say so. Other explanations may not be readily available to you, but that doesn't mean there aren't any other explanations.
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  LongTimeMotherposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Just for the record, if I had lived through lilmamakim's story, I suspect I would be a convert too. If I was standing outside a burning building and screaming to God - or anyone - for help to get my baby out, and they helped me, I would be eternally grateful.
  
  What a shame lilmamakim was shot down in flames for sharing her story within a month of joining HP. I notice her profile page has been cleared out, but I'm going to follow her just in case she comes back.
  Fact is often stranger than fiction and I for one appreciate her taking the time to explain how she reached her spiritual standpoint. That kind of first-hand experience would be far more convincing than reading the bible.
  I went looking for her hubs. Seems like a really interesting lady. Oh well, our loss.
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I know a lot of people will be very skeptical about your story but I am not. It appears as if those with some psychic abilities, no matter how small, are more in tune with God. I've had similar experiences although not as dramatic as yours.
  
  A toy had fallen on my lamp and started smouldering when I was a small child. My mother woke up in her bedroom and had this urge to check up on me. I do not know what made her wake moments from a fire starting but she did. She doesn't know what woke her up. When I was 12, I was sitting in a restaurant that was almost empty and sitting by myself. Watching my family at the bar, I decided to move a few seats closer to them because I was lonely. As I sat down on my new seat, a car with a long kayak secured on its roof reversed into a parking bay outside of the restaurant. He clearly forgot it was on his roof of the car because this kayak board slammed into the restaurant window and glass went flying everywhere on the table and chair I had sat on moments ago.
  
  I once had a dream that my grandmother, dead for 15 years at the time of the dream, was storming through a door and screaming at the kids and was about to beat them. She was possessed. When I woke up, I told my aunt and my mom were were talking downstairs as I slept about my dream. They just gaped at me and said they were discussing how their mother looked possessed when she used used to hit them.
  
  There is so much more to life than what meets the eye. Not only does God manifest Himself through this type of thing, but the devil also. Our minds really can communicate with them.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't really matter what woke her up, the fact remains mothers often wake up to check on their children and find them, way more often than not, just fine. You're merely focusing on a coincidence.
  
  While, all the other times in your life when you moved around seats in a bar, kayak boards didn't come crashing through the window. Again, focusing on coincidence.
  
  LOL! Your examples are not special, nor do we communicate with gods and goblins, you have no magical powers.
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Shame. You cannot entertain the possibilities because it doesn't fit with your logical view point in life? You think what you see is all there is? You are going to get a wake-up call of note.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  LOL. Hardly. Entertaining nonsense is easy, accepting it is another story.
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Shame.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ATM, seems you are very smart but why you do not solve local international troubles?
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  lilmamakimposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Claire. I dont expect everyone to believe me, shoot I didnt want to believe it myself! I was in denial for a long time. The fact of the matter is, there are simply things that defy logic, or science! Ask any fireman in the world what would happen if someone did what I did. They will tell you about backdrafts! That fire exploding straight through the roof right outside her door instead of exploding the room as science says it should have was the clencher for me.
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but that is not a fact, it is an argument from incredulity.
  
  So, you're focusing on a rare occasion when something unusual occurs. So what?
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  lilmamakimposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I truly feel sorry for you. : (
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  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's nice.
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I just accept these things but it really cannot be figured out. The spiritual realm is far more powerful than we think. We try and think of what could have been logically until we realize there is no logical explanation.
  
  I do know in the occult that there are no such things as coincidences and that applies to God as well. We can think that one or two things may be coincidences but when they happen over and over again, well, then it clearly isn't.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  
  You are two of a kind! First you listen to your good sense and don't believe it. Then you work hard to convince yourselves something different; something outlandish and unbelievable.
  
  Then, to make matters worse, in order to convince yourselves even further, you try to rake in other gullible souls to go along with your head-in-the-clouds view.
  
  Sounds like good religious nonsense to me.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You will notice that when someone makes an outlandish statement in these forums, the vast majority don't question the statement. All the non-believing critical thinkers ask questions, while christians don't even question the comments of someone they don't even know. I wonder if belief in God is tied to how gullible one is as well as what you said, what they need.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "Gullible's Travails?"
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Terry30posted 11 years ago
Personally I think the problem is that alot of Christians try and convince you to believe what they believe. Then when they dont agree with things you tell and try to force down on them, YOU (the big Christian) are the one getting upset. Leave the people alone, if you wanna talk religion, do it with your friends from church. Dont sit at a bbq and talk about religion.

Your relathionship with Jesus should be private, keep it in your heart. The ones talking about their religion the whole time are normally the fake ones anyway!

And yes, I am also a Christian, but I NEVER talk about my relationship with Jesus to anyone, it has nothing to do with anybody!.
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Smokes Angelposted 11 years ago
Find me a true believer following God and you will find contentment... not following a church doctrine but following the word of God
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Which god?
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The word of God as in the OT where your God condones slavery and rape and lets incest go unpunished, while he eradicates entire cities for no real given reason? Do you enjoy reading how he favours only Jewish men and treats women like cattle?
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Smokes Angel. Even Angels can have emphysema. Sorry for joking. Not all churches are bad. Only one has to find right one. Of course nobody is perfect. Only ONE is.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  By "ONE" are you referring to me? Now that was a joke!!!!
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ReneeDC1979posted 11 years ago
Genaea Thank You! My thoughts exactly. It is like people get so mad because you believe in God and are not afraid to tell people that. They try their hardest to convince you why God is not real, how crazy you are to be talking to the voices in your head. If you don't understand my faith, my beliefs and my love for Jesus than it's okay.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We understand just fine. The strange thing is that you cannot keep it to yourself....
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  vector7posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Fortunately for humanity and unfortunately for you, she doesn't haveto nor should she in my opinion. By the way, yes I am sharing my opinion as well just as you have though my opinion isn't attempting to force people to do things against their will as yours obviously is.
  
  Maybe keep your opinion about her opinion to yerself dere wittle fewwa wike you tell evewee body elwse ta doos?
  
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry you didn't understand. It must be very frustrating for you. Fortunately huh?
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  getitriteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We're merely trying to make you people think, and to understand that, we too, were indoctrinated, and that if you have the courage, you too, can think for yourself, instead of allowing the BULLIES to control you for your entire life. You have NOTHING SPECIAL. All you have is a deep seated fear of authority.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  People wouldn't get so mad if you just keep your mouth shut.
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Motown2Chitownposted 11 years ago
And...another interesting tidbit about this particular story...just like EVE tempted Adam with the apple, it is Sarah who suggests they lie about their true relationship. Adam and Abraham blame the women.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't forget Lot and his two wonderful daughters!
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HeadlyvonNogginposted 11 years ago
Good point, Motown2Chitown. Also, Rad Man, keep in mind that this was before Moses and the Israelites, before the ten commandments, and before the 613 Mitzvah laws.

Plus, like Motown2Chitown already pointed out, and like I mentioned in a previous discussion, that collection of seemingly discombobulated Abraham stories between Genesis 11 (Babel) and the beginning of Moses' story are stories mainly focused on telling a narrative. They were most likely passed down verbally for many generations before finally being included in the books of Moses. If you'll notice, the way these stories are constructed and told lend themselves well to being good verbally conveyed stories. That's why you see duplicate wife/sister stories three times (Gen12, 20, 26) involving different characters each time. It's most likely just one story that got confused somewhere along the way as to who it actually happened to. Not to mention there presumably wasn't a first-person perspective there to record events as they happened.

By the time these stories were written down this was already ancient history. Be aware of what you're reading and especially when you find yourself looking for something in particular based on your idea of what you think should have been said or done. Like everyone else, you tend to interject your own stuff into what you're reading unless you're conscious of it. And that can significantly warp your perception.
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  "When your mind has a million things running around in it and it makes you act like a fumbling retard."
  
  Headly, you continue to educate me, Man! Having looked it up, in relation to your Post I can say I am no longer that!.......
  
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Haha
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think I'm looking at it as an outsider. I have no vested interest in it as you do. You're the one adapting and rationalizing the language to fit your interpretation.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're just assuming things, Rad Man. Which I can understand, and also understand nothing I say will make you think otherwise. I try to understand by gaining as much knowledge as possible about the source material and the context in which it's set. I don't like to speak about anything without first establishing a level of understanding about it. But let's not fool ourselves here. You do have a vested interest or you wouldn't spend such significant amounts of time discussing it. In the same way you're suggesting I'm rationalizing, it's clear that while you have not taken the time to better understand the material you're speaking of, you certainly have no problem trashing it and everything it has to say. Something I'd venture to say you wouldn't do with nearly any other ancient document. I'd say you're plenty vested.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're assuming I'm assuming. Does it matter if Genesis was proven to be accurate? Yes. Does it matter if we have to distort Genesis to make it look accurate? No. It is either the word of God or it isn't. To submit to the idea that Genesis is the word of God one has to ignore most of science. I'll give you credit for not doing that, but to you it's still important to prove it's accuracy. I on the other hand (and I know I'm no expert, thanks for your kind words regarding that) can see it for what it is. Male Jewish propaganda. You should try reading it like that, and you will if your honest. I've reread it as you've asked me. You will notice that Jewish males are never reprimanded and are treated as gods, while your God looks on all other humans with disgust. I've invested my time in conversation with you about your interpretation regarding Genesis, I would expect the same respect back. I've made a statement and supplied evidence. Do you have evidence from the text that disproves my statement?
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safiq ali patelposted 11 years ago
In my world you are free to embrace your faith without fear. Also Genaea you are sharing in the trial of jesus. Jesus through his life was persecuted for preaching the gospel. It's Christianity phobia and the planet at time is riddled with it. In Christ's name with courage Merry Christmas to you.
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JMcFarlandposted 11 years ago
Fortunately for same people everywhere, no one can order me out of a forum or make me stop talking to other people. Geez.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  JMc
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, so that wasn't the nicest thing I could say, but I don't like being told what to do or threatened with the "unnamed" higher powers like the fbi, police, etc just for posting in a forum and not breaking any of the forum rules. No one has been investigated by the FBI, police or Hubpages, for that matter. No one has been banned but them - that's why they keep coming back with different names. And now they're giving orders to everyone else to stop talking - it's absurd.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Don't mind me. I just made microwave popcorn and I'm watching!
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  She's a bully and perhaps needs some help.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're just now catching on to the fact that she/he/it may need some help? And here I thought you were smart
  
  :-) Sarcasm. Can't help it. My Wednesday just felt like a Monday, and I'm cranky.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Where is Mark? I think this is one of the Hubs where he was harrassing me ... along with you guys. I guess he will chime in pretty soon.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  lol oh yeah. questioning silly beliefs is truly harassing. Yep.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  JMc, are you sure you are not posting under two names???
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Positive. Should I be? I can barely try to keep up with one. Two would be redundant. And confusing.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Go on ... double team on me by yourself. God has not given me a spirit of fear. What year did you graduate from Biola?
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What? There's only one of me...and it really doesn't matter to me if you believe me or not. If you think that I have multiple personalities roaming around on here, it's actually kind of funny.
  
  I didn't graduate from Biola. I went there for several years, until they found out (and consequentially I admitted) that I was gay - then they kicked me out, so I continued my education elsewhere.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Geez I was just kidding! Lighten up! Where did you go after Biola?
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Diane, I have no reason to suspect that of Julie. She is bold enough to just need one persona. I frequently wonder about Mark and A Troubled Man though. Check out this thread for some troubling comments from that ilk:
  
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/107923
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  well I appreciate that, thank you.
  
  I'm planning on writing a hub this week that I would actually really enjoy getting your take on. I just have to find the time to write it.
  
  Although we differ on practically everything religious, I do respect your opinion and you have treated me respectfully. I have tried to return the favor.
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate that Julie and would be happy to help if I could.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This is an example, Diane, of how believers and atheists can coexist. Although we vehemently disagree on a lot of principle foundations, we're polite and respectful. As long as I am treated with respect, i will give respect in return. That's the way the world works best, in my opinion. Respect is earned - not given. If someone is snarky or sarcastic with me, they can expect the same (within reason) If someone is downright insulting, I'll most likely ignore them - or say something sarcastic. If, however, someone wants to threaten me, I'll take whatever steps necessary to defend myself.
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I must have missed something. I have always found Diane to be respectful as well. I am not always, but I do try to. Some folks work hard to keep me from achieving that IMHO, and I have a harder time treating them well. Much like you, Julie, I often respond in kind. Maybe I can do better with that this year, as I know that is not usually productive. With some people, you know there is no being productive in which case ignoring is probably better. Sometimes you can only bite your tongue so hard, though.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't referring to Diane's behavior as much as integrating one of her Question posts in which she asked if it's possible for an atheist and a christian to be friends.
  
  I agree - responding in kind is not exactly productive, but my sense of humor is dry and sarcastic normally - and when confronted with ignorance, threats or intolerance, my natural inclination is to let out my inner snark. I can only recall one or two times that I was genuinely upset by something I read in the forums (all over the internet, not just on Hubpages). It doesn't happen often. In order to have these kinds of discussions, you have to be thick-skinned, or you're going to get eaten alive. People sense weakness and pounce on it whenever possible. I try not to, but it happens. I'm far from perfect and I'll admit it.
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have to admit, there are some provocateurs who seem to only be here to get a rise out of you...Trolls if you will. It can be hard not to acquiesce. New year. Fresh start. Let's try to raise the bar. Don't be surprised when I fail, but we can still keep trying.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  likewise. I'll help you stay in check if you'll agree to help me.
  
  Atheist and believer unite to ignore trolls on the internet. maybe miracles aren't so far fetched...
  
  Couldn't resist :-)
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am going to start working on the manuscript for the movie.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'll consult. We'll get rich and take over the world.
  
  You can attribute your success to a god, I'll attribute mine to my innate genius :-)
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  bBereanposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like there will be something for everybody, (and great special effects).
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mark and the troubled man have different writing styles, but the troubled man and getitrite do not. All three however always makes me laugh, and before long I'm wanted to write "that why your religion causes so many wars".
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I read the comments. I think that Mark, secretly, loves Christians AND Christians love Mark. U 2 Rad.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Please stop bearing false witness against me. Thanks.
  
  Save me a seat by the fire.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank God! I thought something had happened to you!
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Close but not in it!
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Come on Diane, no one is harassing you, it's just that we are right and you are wrong. It always looks like harassment when you're wrong, I know, because my wife harasses me all the time!
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Rad Man, that must be a wonderful realisation: being able to pass all the buck onto a woman and know that you are spotless, without sin! God Bless you, Son!
  
  Seriously though, thanks for your contributions to these hubs and for your responses when I have commented. Best wishes.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Jonny for the blessing, you know how much I appreciate those. It's like a love fest in here and I was looking for a fight. I got up sick at 4:30 to watch Canada lose to the U.S. at the World Juniors hockey tournament and I'm ready to take off my gloves and go a round or two, but no... I think I'll switch over to the assault rifle area next door.
  
  cheers.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad you are not in my 'hood with those assault weapons.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oops, I meant the assault rifle forum. Reading it without the word forum reads totally different.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for the clarification.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I love your wife!!!
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, dear.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I've known she needed help for a while and was hoping she went to get some, but she's back. I try to be gentle with her for obvious reasons, but it's frustrating.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I would like to cry. There is so much pain, hate, troubles, tears, division on the world and in our country. 40 years ago I did not see it when I arrived. Hate never win and begot hate and ultimate war and death. Don't you want to cry?
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  vladimir, the last few posts have been all in jest..... we are a few hubbers who sometimes get into heated debates, but in this instance, around the New Year, we have been revelling in a bit of good natured humour..... at least that is true for myself.
  
  So sorry if it hurt you, but please check back.... I think we are basically a caring lot.
  
  I see from your Profile that you have gone through a lot of courageous stuff in your life, and maybe harshness and any appearance of agro will hit hard. Am I right in this assumption?
  
  Blessings to you where ever you live and what ever your calling.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah Vlad. I pray for these guys and they hate it. They harrass me and I love it. Instead of the Odd Couple, we are the Odd Bunch.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If it makes you happy I'll harass you a little. ;-)
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No! No! Not that!
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What did I say that cause such pain. I certainly have compassion for her, but let's try to help her and move on. Jonny is right on track as usual. I meant no harm.
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HeadlyvonNogginposted 11 years ago
I'm not sure where you're getting your information. The consensus as I understand it is that there are some elements of the gospel of John that were added later to make a more structured literary telling that draws on additional sources, but that these were built around an initial version that actually was written as a testament of personal experience of Jesus. And even with the added bits it's estimated as being completed in the form we know now around 85-90 AD.

Why, if its just myth, do both the Jewish and Islamic people acknowledge the existence of Jesus, but only view him as a prophet? If he was a total fabrication, does this make sense to you? And as for the 'magic' bit, assuming you're talking about the gospel accounts of miracles and such, isn't that what made these acts significant? That this wasn't just normal everyday stuff?
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The gospels begun as oral traditions which got embellishments on the way and it was not as is taught today. There were different versions and was written down at various times. The gospel of john took its final form only by 100 to 110 AD which was again edited later. The other versions were mostly destroyed by Constantine and party.
  Though you want it to be eyewitness accounts none of it is. The stories evolved just like any other mythological stories. There might have been an obscure person behind the myth but we have no idea who he was, it might as well be Jesus Ben Pandira.
  The miracles, well that make the story a myth. Refer any religious story there is none without any magic.
  It is those acts that made it significant, people's hope that such miracles can occur in their life too, though fantasy it gives hope.
  Does it make any sense? It does, just as much as any other religion.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not that Wikipedia is the end all be all of accuracy or anything, but what it says corresponds with how I understand it…
  
  The Gospel of John developed over a period of time in various stages,[28] summarized by Raymond E. Brown as follows:[29]
  1. An initial version based on personal experience of Jesus;
  2. A structured literary creation by the evangelist which draws upon additional sources;
  3. The final harmony that presently exists in the New Testament canon, around 85-90 AD.[30]
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_john
  
  Not sure how exactly you, or anyone else for that matter, are able to confirm with any sort of certainty that they began as oral traditions, and would be interested to hear where you got that and how exactly that conclusion was arrived at.
  
  As for your statement that the miracles is what makes it myth, by that same token, that’s what made them miracles. If there were nothing special about those events beyond being normal/natural occurrences then they wouldn’t have been ‘miracles’. That’s what made them significant. That’s what makes them religious stories. It was miracles/magic beyond what’s to be expected as normal/natural occurrences that elevated these events beyond the mundane and it’s because of those very qualities that they were said to have been done to illustrate that something beyond the norm was happening here.
  
  Let’s look at this in a strictly hypothetical scenario. Say there really was a miraculous happening that occurred at some point in our ancient past that one of the many witnesses felt was significant enough to write about. That happening, being of a miraculous nature, is not something you’d see everyday, but would rather be something that was very much out of the norm/expected, thus making it significant and note-worthy. By your reasoning, you’d basically dismiss this reported ‘miracle’ because everybody knows that sort of thing doesn’t just happen. So, unless something like that were to happen again during your lifetime, you’d always dismiss it no matter what. And even if something like that were to happen right before your eyes, and you were so moved by it that you felt compelled to write it down, chances are your account would be dismissed by future generations for the exact same reason.
  
  While I understand your logic here, and while I get why your default state in this matter is that I and every other believer just ‘want this to be’, and that ‘rational’ people like yourself are not deluding themselves and know better than that, do you not see the fatal flaw, and the inherent irony, in your perspective? Basically, I’m sure you won’t disagree that while there’s quite a bit we’ve learned in recent years, there’s still quite a bit that we don’t know or understand. If anything we’ve only really confirmed that we have a lot more to learn. So are you so certain that our current knowledge base is adequate enough to dismiss the possibility of events that would qualify as ‘miraculous’ by our standards as ever really happening?
  
  After all, technically, since it only really happened once and we can’t reproduce it or figure out how exactly it occurred, by that same reasoning the emergence of life on this planet would qualify as a miracle that if not for the fact that life observably exists today, you’d never accept as happening. Even if there were an eye witness account of it. Basically, I say all of that to say, I wouldn’t be so certain, and wouldn’t allow the high we’re experiencing from our increase of knowledge in recent decades, to cloud our judgment and remove our humility about the goings on of this existence. Not that that means you have to accept the gospels or Christianity in general, just that being over-confident in ourselves is the beginning of the end of learning new things and moving forward.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do not consult websites much hence I am unable to give you any online reference. If you enquire you will find that almost every scholar agree that the gospels started as oral traditions and there were not four but more gospels each with different stories about jesus. Why it is not true is because though they claim to be eyewitness accounts they are not and all the books were edited till the church gained power. The books describe mythical stories just like any other religious books that claim such events. For example there was no city/town/village called Nazerath before 1st century. No contemporary historian, not even his greatest follower and contemporary Paul has noticed this jesus nor his miracles.
  And if you read the gospels in order mark first and john last, you will find that the jesus story is gradually evolving, son a god, a mere anointed one in mark and a full god in john. There was no witness, it might have started from a person who lived or might have been a mere invention just like other people who invented thir gods.
  
  That is what religious stories are all about, miracles. If you have read any other religious books you will also notice that they too contain similar "miracles". In fact without miracles and magic very few religions can survive and thrive.
  
  Ancient people thought there were miracles. For them even thunder was god's wrath. They didn't know how nature worked and for them all these are miracles. Even know we have god men and people who perform "miracles" and people who believe and follow them, (astrologers who can predict, "doctors(charlatan)" who can heal, so many). Do you believe a magician as a miracle worker? It is merely confirmation bias and hope.
  
  It has nothing to do with knowledge. Our only we default state, what we know is that the universe exist. Anything beyond that is past and you are explaining me the past, so do it logically without contradicting yourself. I do not say there is no god, what I say is that you are contradicting yourself in your explanations.
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/107877
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not finding any support for your claim that Nazareth didn't exist until the first century. The consensus seems to be that it was a very small town, estimated as having a population in the hundreds during Jesus' childhood, and because of this is not often specifically mentioned by historians, such as Josephus, for example.
  
  My initial comment regarding your statement that the gospels began as an oral tradition was a misunderstanding on my part. I took that to mean that you were saying the gospels were completely fabricated based on oral stories that were later made to look like eye-witness accounts, and wasn't sure how exactly this could be determined from a scholarly perspective. In researching this further I think I understand better what you're talking about. The oral traditions I believe you're referring to, as spoken of by scholars, refers more to the Jewish tradition common during the time of the second temple, including the time of Jesus and the disciples, that consisted of ongoing debates about how to interpret the books of Moses and what it spoke of. It's through these that they attempt to trace how differing views first emerged and propagated from there.
  
  Personally, I think a lot of the confusion surrounding the gospels is due to the church's influence in later years. It's one thing to hold an opinion of a document or a religious idea. The mistake the church made, in my opinion, is in attempting to establish itself as an authority as to what's definitive truth and what isn't. In doing so, one of the ideas they established is that these writings were not the works of fallible humans but were divinely inspired, thus perfect, as a means to squelch the debate where they were concerned.
  
  While the books of Moses were long revered by the Jewish people, and could be recited and rewritten in their entirety verbatim from memory by many, the same is not true for any of the texts of early Christianity. These were oral stories, written accounts, and letters written by normal humans with differing opinions and understandings told from their own individual perspectives. It's apparent that even those that are included in the canon of the NT as we know it now didn't completely agree with one another, which is by no means strange. Talk to any group who share a common experience and you'll see much the same thing.
  
  But what should be noted here is that it's obvious there was something that happened in this age that inspired the writings we see, both those included in the bible and those that are not. Over-simplifying the people of these times, like your statement about how people saw common occurrences like thunder, doesn't properly take into account the real people that lived in this age and what inspired what they thought or believed. Any natural occurrence as common as thunder or anything of the like, would not sufficiently explain what we see happening here. Especially since they all center around the existence of a particular figure and the impact he had. This is not the kind of thing you generally see without there being an event of particular significance as a catalyst.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you look into the gospels Nazereth is described as a city which has a synagogue and with a cliff nearby. Archeology has not brought up any evidence for such a city. True it has turned up some lamps but it only mean a few people stayed there not a town or city but more like a slum. There is no synagogue. And the nearest mountain is Mt. Tabor which has no cliff and is 6miles away. And no historian mentions nazerath nor was it in pilgrimage route of early Christians.
  Not one thing but many. Jews were subjugated by Romans and many rebels, revolutionaries and preachers arose. A good number of such preachers were named Jesus and a majority got killed. Say Jesus Ben pandira. These people might be the nucleus of these stories. The miracles, resurrection all got added on later. And around 30 or 40 AD an orator came along modified the story and spread it because of his skills Paul.
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  HeadlyvonNogginposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Let's really think about this from the perspective you're suggesting. You're saying the gospels were written within a handful of decades of when the events they spoke of were to have taken place. Within a lifetime or two. And while you say the miracles were added later, the rest of it, especially in cases of geographic locations, you'd think they'd know. And you'd think the people who read or heard these stories and bought into them would know. Especially considering the ongoing oral traditions. The Romans, who ruled these lands they speak of, adopted Christianity as their religion a couple of centuries later. The Jewish people, and later the Islamic people, who knew these regions, though they had motive to do so, didn't deny Jesus' existence in that region, and even acknowledged him as a prophet. Not one of many, but a specific individual. Does what you're saying really make sense? The miracle part I can understand to a point, but blatant geographic inaccuracies?
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  A story occurred, people followed and later they got a majority. By the time it was written down and wildly followed a town was established there. The events described happened before 1AD, while the gospels became a single one as is known today only by 300AD, till that time there were additions and omissions. Even entire books were added and later removed from Bible. There was no archaeology or proper history at that time and when a large number of people say one thing it was taken at face value. So after a time Jews too thought there was somebody like that, while Mohamed nearly copied the all bible with the "christian heresy" of his time and place. Constantine didn't take Christianity because of its merit but because of the number of followers and their willingness to die for their belief, quite a valuable thing in a war. Unlike christains pagans were not fanatical about their religion nor ever tried to spread it.
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Jeramiposted 11 years ago
Claire Evans wrote:
Reading your comments to Heavynoggin, I see you have changed your comment from John only being written after 110AD to it being in its final version then. Therefore you are acknowledging that John must have started to have been written much earlier You say that it was running in a commentary format? Aren't all the gospels like that?
=================

it is commonly believed that John wrote Revelation at some point after he recieved it in 96 AD.
The prison was soon closed down and the prisoners set free.
John did return to preaching as fortold in Rev. The last recorded mention of John being alive was in 109 AD. There is no mention as to when he died ????

Does it really matter when he wrote these letters?
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Jeramiposted 11 years ago
Mathew 24:3 “…the disciples came to him PRIVATELY and asked … when will these things be?” Mark 13:3 Peter James John and Andrew ask him PRIVATELT tell US when things shall be” What is the importance of this word “Privately” And why did they use it? What things are they asking about?” Well, sense they had just left the temple and heard Jesus “Telling Off” the scribes and Pharisees in Chapter Matthew 23 , I would think that the disciples were asking about those things which Jesus had just said to the Scribes and Pharisees!
And the word “Privately” was used because when they asked privately, Jesus answered them personally. When YOU see this and after they do that to YOU, Jesus was telling these disciples personally that those things were going to happen to them and “THEY were going to see these things happen. Nobody knows the day or hour BUT “That” generation shall not pass till all of these things which he mentions in that conversation comes to fulfillment.
SO, if we are really believing Jesus (these words he is said to have spoken) We can not believe 1650 years of misinterpretations and/or mistranslations.
Matthew 24:6 YOU will hear of wars and rumors of wars. Nations shall rise against nations kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and pestilence and earthquakes in divers places. … Yep that happened. Droughts, famine, and pestilence began about a decade after the crucifixion. And the earthquakes in divers places? In 62 AD an earthquake happened off the coast of Italy that destroyed Pompeii so badly that repairs were not completed 17 years later. Earthquakes became as common as they are today in California.
V9 Then they will deliver You up and kill You. Yep that happened except for John who Jesus said in another verse that John will tary until Jesus comes again.
V15 When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place. Jesus just told these four people that they were going to see it! And if this is talking about the temple, The desolation of desolation must have been standing there before it was destroyed and became desolate.
V28 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon shall not give its light and the stars will fall from heaven ( Poor translation could as easily been translated “Not be seen”?) After 17 years (69 AD) of constant smaller earthquakes Mt Vesuvius erupts sending clouds of ash and sulfur in a SE direction over Israel and Jerusalem. But the end is Not Yet.
According to Daniel 11 and 12, when the 14th emperor of the fourth kingdom comes to his end, at that time Michael stands up for the children of Daniels people (Rapture)
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Jeramiposted 11 years ago
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

==============

ME
To me, the verse above implies that; "To Be a Disciple" meant something much more grand than it has been simplified to mean. Just anyone that wants to be a disciple can not be one according to the meaning stated in that verse.
Which means .... I have known many really good people, who were believers and nonbelievers. I have known evangelists and teachers but I have never known a true "Disciple".
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The true disciple is one who is walking in Spirit - in Word of God. If one speak Word of God loud all the time is locked into the kingdom of God. Lord said John 8:31-32.Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed;
  And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
  Being disciple is not too difficult to be.
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  Jeramiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know anything But I believe many things.
  I believe there was much lost in translation and interpretation.
  I believe that only about 5% of what Jesus taught is included in the bible.
  I believe that almost ALL of prophesy given in the OT WAS fulfilled before 150 AD
  The Hebrew people that those prophesy was given to ceased to exist as a nation when or shortly after the seventh seal was opened. This was the end of days as described by Jesus.
  When Jesus said that all shall be fulfilled, he wasn't talking about that prophesy which was not yet given to John almost 40 years later.
  John was told to write those things which he has seen and those which are, AND those things yet to come.
  John had already seen those things described with the opening of the seven seals.
  
  I either have to believe this OR I have to believe that what Jesus said was wrong OR I have to believe that we have lost our ability to read and/or believe those things which are written.
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stopoverresortposted 11 years ago
Hey Mate, just relax and let be Jesus come to your life. As the word of God says ..the our God is mighty and he can forgive you..so go and ask him to forgiveness..He will definitely forgive you..Thanks
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Cordelia Bayposted 11 years ago
Stand firm...the truth you know about Jesus has been revealed to you by the Holy Spirit...do not let them anger you or cause you to doubt what you know to be truth! The scripture foretells that there are many who have ears but do not hear and eyes but they do not see. Most, have already prepared beforehand and argument....remain a gentle spirit....plant a seed and let the Holy Spirit water and harvest it....it may take many witnesses, trials and tribulations before one is ready to seek with their whole heart....the truth that lies beyond one's own intellect. Peace to you in Jesus name.
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  dianetrotterposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Beautifully said!
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  Cordelia Bayposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks
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SpanStarposted 11 years ago
Let us recognize that Jesus himself was constantly rejected and disbelieved. I believe he said to his disciples something to the effect that if they do this to me will they not do this to you?

I cannot speak for the nonbeliever however consider this if the nonbeliever is wrong-there will be hell to pay.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Very true, Jesus has said, ' if the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first , if they persecuted me , they will persecute you also...' If the sinners do not know that we " expect " their opposition, they should know though that nothing will restrain us to tell them the truth, because our Lord has commission us and did equip us saying " you also must testify..." If anyone rejects the offer of the peace with God and the life everlasting, will be eternally lost, however, we have done our part..
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You guys kill me. You need to qualify. You shouldn't say "Jesus has said..." you should say "the bible says Jesus said...". Because honestly there is a big difference. We really have no idea of wether Jesus ever even existed, let alone what he actually said.
  
  Do you guys ever wonder why (according to the bible) Jesus was constantly rejected and disbelieved? It has always seemed strange to me that (according to the bible) Jesus was not well believed, but yet a few thousand years later he's the son of God. The eye witnesses didn't buy it and yet you do? Strange?
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Kinda like talking about the missing link... if there isn't one, why do certain ppl get to talk about it like it's fact?
  
  Why would ppl have to change the way they worded everything concerning a certain subject to pls. someone else? If we believe it with our minds and hearts, why should we have to pretend for your sake? Its not a matter of political correctness. We came to a new country so we could have the religious freedom to speak what we believe. You can share as you believe as well obviously. My thinking is that we should be kind/respectful to one another though.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It was people who thought like you prevented your religious freedom to speak and not people like Rad Man.
  It is very difficult not to laugh or ridicule when obvious contradictions, and nonsense are put forward into the public. If you see somebody talking nonsense in TV, won't you laugh?
  Speaking of belief, whom are you believing? If you are a normal human being I'm sure you have never heard from god or jesus. All you have is your parents/teachers taught you about them. You are believing them, who in turn are believing their parents. So blindly believing and insisting that they were right and rationalizing any event that occur in your life based on the said belief is OK. But when you put forward that as truth people who can see(that is anyone who has not subscribed to your particular belief[I bet you can see the ridiculousness of Musilm or Hindu religion]) obviously will laugh at it.
  And Rad man was really making a point, however much you want to believe, we really do not know whether jesus really lived and none of the gospels are eyewitness accounts but hearsay. So how do we know what jesus preached?
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I spose you can believe whatever you want. If those are the things you chose to believe about me (blindly, as you said) its no skin off my nose. I dont know why you always answer for radman, he seems perfectly capable, but if he doesn't mind, I guess I shouldn't either.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Believing is your business Beth, not mine.
  And I suppose Spanstar and Michael are perfectly incapable of replying for themselves that you have to do instead.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Congratulations Beth37 for speaking correctly and handling courageously low informed citizens .
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.1-language.com/englishcourse/index.htm
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  -- every sound tree produces good fruit, and an unsound tree produces bad fruit;
  - it is not possible for a sound tree to bear bad fruit, or for an unsound tree to bear good fruit.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Congratulations Michael, for once again not disappointing by making no apparent sense. What is a low informed citizen anyway?
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  She knows as well as any other ' high ' informed . . .
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying she is high?
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong interpretation again. High informed vs. low informed. So simple to understand .
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  we don't use that kind of terminology. Are you saying intelligent vs ignorant? I clearly have no idea what you're trying to say at all.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks JM, I was beginning to think it was my stupid dyslexic brain that was unable to understand.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Be it according to your words.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No further explanation, please.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  what in the world are you talking about?
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. To my understanding , this party is over .
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  But I bought streamers.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  and it is my understanding that you're mistaken. If you want to make a lot of vague claims in indiscernible language, that doesn't mean that the conversation is over. The rest of us can continue to have a dialogue and you can go elsewhere if you don't feel like explaining yourself or contributing.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Mo, I need your help here. I know I'm going to say the wrong thing and can't help myself. Do you know what he is talking about? Does he man well informed vs ill informed?
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  SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Spanstar is very capable of replying for himself.
  
  Your comments regarding that which is and which is not believable is in fact what is humorous. I believe we would all like to see your degree in theology since your comments seem to suggest that you know more than those who do have a degree in this field.
  
  How is it that someone can find something ridiculous when they don't even understand the concept there espousing about?
  
  Here is a question for you which I daresay you should consider it ridiculous or humorous the question is:
  "do you believe that by doing nothing for billions of years life will emerge on its own as it has right now?"
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ooh! i've got one of those!
  
  Guess what? Still think it's ridiculous. My biblical studies is one key factor that allowed me to become an atheist and view these things for the ridiculous, immoral things that they are.
  
  guess that blew THAT point out of the water.
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  SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Reading what you wrote it appears to me if you have an ego the size of the universe I can see why you have moved out of the area of theology.
  
  Your one-man idea of what is and what is the doesn't change anything.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  excuse me? How do three sentences give you any kind of grounds to say that i'm egotistical - just because I don't agree with YOUR position? Who's the egotistical one here, exactly?
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  SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I believe these comments constitute your idea of knowing more than those who are teaching you.
  
  "My biblical studies is one key factor that allowed me to become an atheist and view these things for the ridiculous, immoral things that they are."
  
  This sounds like ego to me!
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Then you would be mistaken. I don't claim to know any more than anybody else - nor did I claim to be smarter than my professors - or even you. Nothing I said had even the implication that I was absolutely correct and everybody else was absolutely wrong - although it seems like that's what YOU believe.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Funny, you think that if someone is teaching us we are not allowed to question them. This kind of thinking has gotten far to many Alter boys in a bad situation don't you think. Statistically speaking about half the muslim population is smarter than us, do we become muslims because they tell us they are right?
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Does a degree in theology give one a better understanding of the universe or the bible?
  
  Funny question because in the later part of the question you stated that it has happened "as it has right now?" but in the first part of the question you ask if it could happen. It's kind of like asking do you believe you can walk as you are doing right now?
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  SpanStarposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The question was for you to answer.
  
  The presumption of life falls under the idea that there was no one to create likes so one has to formulate in their mind that there was no one involved in the development of life-I believe this would be a scientific hypothesis.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't even know who those two posters were until you said their names, Id still have to go back and read what they wrote.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yet you replied for them.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I just went back and read. You assumed I was answering for them. I thought radman was basically addressing Christians not so much a specific person. I don't believe Id read their comments, but I read radman's cause I feel like I know him... anyhoo... there ya go.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Rad man started "you guys kill me" addressing those two guys and you answered them, I too did the same.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I spose I should go back and read so I could defend myself, but Ill just let you have it. There are a lot of arguments I don't have to win.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It is not about winning the argument.
  I replied to your comment and then you said I should not.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  k
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Which part, that you are a normal one or that you are a christian?
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Some of us are normal and Christian. Crazy, huh? And I got buddies 'round here who will vouch for that.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have to back Mo up on that one.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, friend.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Im sorry, I missed the point here... Was this a zinger? Im probably not normal and Im struggling in my Christian walk, although Im totally on the right path as opposed to the past 3 years. Was this interesting to you? I can't imagine it mattered.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You said I made a false assumption about you. The only two assumptions I made was that you are normal and you are a Christian, was I wrong?
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It comes to this... ppl just stop discussing the actual point and just start arguing point by point. Probably a waste of time. The sad thing is, I don't even remember what thread this is anymore. Maybe you do.
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  riddle666posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do. I always remember what I write and to whom I write.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Because they feel it's necessary to lie for their religion. How else would you explain a museum that teaches humans and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time?
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Creation Evidence Museum, in Texas - Dr. Carl Baugh
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  jonnycomelatelyposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Baugh rhymes with Laugh.
  
  Thoroughly discredited charlatan. Why do you follow such nonsense Vladimir?
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So you're back " killed Rad Man?!" From now on public has to deal with a dead- alive, or alive who chose to lie , and be a teacher, telling to others how to phrase their conversation !? - after admitting that " you do not have any idea of whether Jesus existed..."
  Another your problem , we actually do not wander about why Jesus was constantly rejected, because He wasn't. By your words, " you guys " can reject someone who never existed ?! More and more is becomin obvious why you can't understand previously stated , " the spiritual man examines all things . He himself is examined by no one.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have no idea what you are rambling on about or even why you called me "killed Rad Man?!" You do appear angry about something however. Care to explain the "killed Rad Man?!" part?
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You wrote" you guys kill me." Don't you remember?
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  shortage of memory.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I see, you have a limited understand of the English language. I'm not sure I can help you with that.
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  As long as you can help yourself . Thanks for being kind and considerate for others .
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It works both ways pale. I'll be kind and considerate to those who are kind and considerate.
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Beth37posted 11 years ago
Wow! I believe he has met his match in the "replies" dept.
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I love debating and all the better if it is about my faith.
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  NotPCposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed! Spirituality and beliefs are so subjective, the conversation always leads to a place of deeper understanding!
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  Claire Evansposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I've learnt a lot here.
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Cgenaeaposted 11 years ago
Hiiiiiiiiiii I have missed you all so terribly. They put me out twice! and it wasnt even my fault I ran away pouting, but I havent forgotten you. It's been a long time!
I will be starting a conversation soon. Before you all get too excited... You do not have to come if you don't want.
Rad, the sin of this world, killed Jesus. 2000 years ago and before. He dies no more.
Ok, you know this could get lengthy and we are up to 183 pages??? ...later
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  Michael-Milecposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hello! Welcome back. You were missed but not forgotten. Anybody doubts that the God answers prayers? Well, get quickly your faith in actions otherwise we might be standing opposite to face to face. Our God reigns and He doesn't need nor asks for man's approval . He already won all arguments and battles and we know that, we're grateful and out of His wisdom we are wise to follow His will . We live because He is alive , - eternally ...
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Cgenaeaposted 11 years ago
By the way Getitrite, how "lucky" have you been with chance??? Any 3 night dreams???
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have 3-7 night dreams all the time and some people actually CAN control their dreams. How does a psychology major not know that?
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, stop tellin' stories. You aint never had no SAME dream 3 nights in a row. stop it, you're killin' me. Lol
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh but I do. Its happened multiple times. Why is it so unbelievable coming from me, but you think its perfectly believable (according to you) when it happens to you?
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, let me get this straight. You are saying that MANY times, you have had the EXACT SAME dream from start to finish for three nights in a row???
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. On several different occasions both when I was a Christian and after I became an atheist. Still have them, in fact.
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You know... I have not ever one time in all my life heard another say that they have had that experience. And all the people that I have told, think that my experience was "amazing". And it happens to you? often?!?!?!??? Wow. Ok. I must rethink my position. God is not real-ly going to allow it to be for naught. Ok, so my experience may not have been so amazing. There are now two of "me"
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  there are actually many of "you". I've met several people with similar dream experiences. We formed a group out of college for "repeat dreamers" that at its height had 10-15 members, all with similar dream lives but different dreams.
  
  I will say that I appreciate your honesty in that you're going to rethink this one area, though. The psychology of dreams, what triggers them and how they exist was one of my favorite parts of studying psychology.
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I never really looked into dreams. I hardly EVER dream. Now, am I isolated??? I have very few dreams. A life of insomnia leaves little time for it. Hereditary.
  In Psychology, my only hope was the "helping" part. I wanted to make decisions about how to make the lives of my peers more stable. The dream section was too obscure for me.
  I am firm in belief in God.
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I never really looked into dreams. I hardly EVER dream. And you guys are dreamin' all over the place!!! Now, am I isolated??? I have very few dreams. A life of insomnia leaves little time for it. Hereditary.
  In Psychology, my only hope was the "helping" part. I wanted to make decisions about how to make the lives of my peers more stable. The dream section was too obscure for me.
  I am firm in belief in God.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Perfect, when I was younger I had a repeated dream that I was on a sandy beach cleaning pieces of paper off the beach with a very long poker. Any idea's. I had it for weeks. Drove me nuts.
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Ooooohhh thaaaat's what's wrong
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Real dream. Had it over and over.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You felt a great amount of responsibility at the time.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I remember alway looking for a perfectly crisp piece of paper to tick with my trash poker and could never find it while the other garbage picker could. I was in Grade 3 and my dyslexia (which I didn't know I had) was giving me problems in school. I think I was having problems with self esteem. Always wanting perfection but getting garbage. Freud would have said it was sexual, but I was a kid and didn't think that way. Must of had the same dream ten times. Dream are only your mind dealing with issues.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No matter how hard you tried, it felt like it always turned up trash... that's probably true.
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying my work is/was trash? LOL.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're not allowed to be contrary whilst talking about 3rd grade dreams.
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Perfect piece of paper.... You don't believe that you were looking for my God???
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  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Me too. But mostly when I was younger.
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LauraD093posted 11 years ago
Didn't Jesus say to his disciples (paraphrased) you will be persecuted? Having dissenters to your belief system isn't only projected toward Christians. Some folk believe in Ancient Aliens and they have the right to do so as do Christians and also those who are Atheists. We are given free-will according to the Christian doctrine to make choices. At this stage in my life I feel no burning desire to defend my faith. It is what it is. I believe some of the issue is when others feel they are being asked to convert for the sake of their souls. The "One True God," theory is embraced by some and not others so be it. Walk your personal path and let others do so as well. God presumably is love not doctrine.
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. Your point is excellent. No burning desire to defend your faith? I just ca't help it.
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JMcFarlandposted 11 years ago
convince is a verb. You cannot have a convince. So what is it that you say you have?
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  She meant she has her convictions I believe.
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  beautiful!
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Convention.
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  JMcFarlandposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  convention? Like Comic-Con?
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  :b
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  Cgenaeaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh shut up!!! I did not want to go back and correct.
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Cgenaeaposted 11 years ago
Beth, that post was for Rad.
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  Beth37posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I can tell. No worries.
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