Hot Button Topic
Yes, the tone you started and carry on throughout the thread.
Since I didn't know I could hit un-follow I thank-you 4 the information as my e-mail has been flooded with this forum...which i believe is because you espouse Christianity and come across as an arrogant know-it-all a Christian is as a Christian does ...your ability to incite anger even in laid back me with your poisoned text is truly a thing of beauty...as was asked before...who exactly are you mentoring? Jesus taught (so i am told by those more well versed in theology then U young lady) with love,compassion and dignity. Practice what U preach please,being so defensive really isn't making OUR faith appear attractive. By the way I am an Eucharistic-Minister and this forum has even insulted other practicing Christians -please try to carrying the faith without so much fire and brimstone it may induce a better dialogue then what is presented here.
I like it. She is a great argument against Christianity.
My faith does not embrace the fire and brimstone message. We God's children, are judged by our own standards. Now, what were you saying???
- genaeaposted 13 years ago
0The life and death and life again, of Jesus tells the complete story. He pointed the way to the knowledge of all things. Jesus is the way. His way, is the only way. Believe it, or don't. His words are located in the bible. Those words are the ONLY words that matter.
- genaeaposted 13 years ago0
The funniest thing to me is, since I have been on this site, every time I have joined a Godly forum, the little foxes come. And each time, those who are spiritual, pack up their bibles and go home.
It is so funny how the "devil's" got them on the "run"!!!
I know that Jesus was not that way. He used the word of God from the written text the first occurrence that we know of.
Later, he used his knowledge and wisdom of God to respond to questions, even when he knew that the question was most often a set-up. During his ministry he also said, "they that are well need no physician..."
He was angry with the so-called church people for elevating themselves above others. Humility is key. I know that it is not beneath me to continue to provide truth where there is none. It is what we were admonished to do. But the bible is the weapon of choice. I know that it is not tainted and I know that it stands solidly in "battle". I think we differ there.
So, all I am trying to say is, it may not be for either of you to stand firmly for God in the middle of a fierce battle with spirits sent to destroy the message of God, but it is for me. I do it proudly and unwavering without one regret or hesitation. my father has been really really good to me; I gotta tell it to ALL who will listen. The opposition only opens the door for more discussion of Jesus. my very favorite subject.
Stand still and behold the salvation of the Lord. - genaeaposted 13 years ago0
Clearly Mark, you have an empty space that needs filling. Only Jesus can do that. You just need to close your mind some and read one book.
Ask the Lord to help you.I have read it. Unlike yourself it seems. Sadly - it has no answers. It just tells you to act like a sheep. Anyone would think it was written by the authority of the day to keep the sheeple quiet while they were being abused.
Oh wait........
You will get it eventually. Keep seeking, sooner or later it will seep in.
And - what does "the likes of you," mean?Jesus was "quiet" as he was being abused. It is ok. I can do that too!!!
I follow him.
The reasons you utilize to ignore biblical scripture come from carnal thinking. the word is easy to discount. But I believe that it is that way for a reason. God wants those who have his spirit. Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance are all things it provides. The bible explains how to get them all. Check your "fruits" Mark. They seem to have sat on top of the refrigerator too long Come on!!! Let's go shopping. 
Odd - you are not displaying those qualities. Funny that you think you are keeping quiet when this entire thread is exactly the opposite.
Keep seeking.I AM trying to please someone, Mark. But YOU are NOT my target.
God is responsible for accurately judging who displays what.
Yes, I know that some are not happy with "the mirror" and would rather feel as if they "look just fine" but God will not allow such pride. Truth will be revealed. The fight is not with flesh, but spirit. I am armed and you...??? Just as naked as a jaybird.Interesting that you keep on speaking at me. You must want some answers from me. Try reading what I wrote - it may help in your quest.
No. I have already ascertained that you haven't the info that I seek. I ask my father. He responds.
I only speak to you because you keep tugging at my "robe". Though I don't mind, I need you to be clear who the visitor/seeker is. I aint at'cho forum question. I cannot accept your advice, Sir. I must counsel with the Godly. Here, I know the Godly by how they speak. They sound like my father, and they don't teeter-totter on the fence. They HOT!!! not lukewarm.
Did you know that it is those things that we say that affirms what is in our hearts? We do not speak ventricles. We know there is more.Oh sorry. I am not tugging at your robe - I am responding directly to you when you speak to me. There is interesting wisdom to be had in the way sheep behave.
I will continue to try and help with your education as you seem to need more by keep asking for it. As you keep on telling me - you cannot show me anything - I need to go else where for it.
But - I can help to educate you. Sheep behave today the same way they did when your majik book was written.
Dumplin', your name is not in the OP. Now, tell me again, CORRECTLY this time:) whom is speaking at whom???
Education??? Get your pen!!!
Sheep are stupid, yes??? They need rough treatment to behave??? They know NOTHING, though they probably THINK they do??? They need threat to walk the correct path to stay away from the "wolf"??? They do what they WANT??? They don't know where the "best" pasture is on their own???
Hmmm... Who would know that better than THEIR herder???
Maybe Jesus WAS on to somethingAh - so when you speak directly at me - you are not speaking at me?
And the OP specifically asked a question. I answered - you ignored my answer in favor of telling me you are a sheep. Lost me with the other stuff. The "best pasture," is what gets you fattened up for dinner. At least you are starting to get it now though - no following of your own volition; no thinking for yourself.She says what sheep are like, and says she is a sheep, I wonder whether she understands anything she rights.
Oh, but we ALL are sheep. It may not be apparent all the time to us, which are which. But God is all-knowing. He can tell easily.
You mean YOU are sheep?
Your god is all knowing? Do not think so. How can a sick barbaric, murdering and adulterous human 'god' who couldn't see past a year be "all knowing'?I don't know. But MY GOD is. All day everyday.
Are you now angry?Ganaea, you say a murderer is a lover and your god is one. Then you say brain is a problem. Then you say you are a sheep and then say sheep are stupid. I am still laughing at your comments, why should I be angry especially when you are providing entertainment?
Ah-ha!!! But I do have a choice. You have chosen your own path Sheepie. Watch out for dem wolves!!! Oh! And, "Fattened up for slaughter???" Cool! My shepherd knows which ones to "eat".
- Motown2Chitownposted 13 years ago0
I have a question. In the OP you say: If I am wrong, why try to convince me? Shouldn't that apply on the end of the believer as well? Why is it okay for a believer to continue an argument ad infinitum, but not for a non believer to do the same? Why isn't the only appropriate response from both parties after expressing opposite views to simply agree to disagree and move on to other things?
Good question!!!
This conversation will continue, in some form, until the return of the savior. It is irresponsible, in my opinion to leave the word of God misunderstood. Spirit and truth is what he asks. If there is untruth spread, truth will counter. God will have it no other way. All will know the truth; it is promised.
So, if ur nauseous, you should take a break from this conversation. Get you some crackers we will see you later.This is my first post in this conversation. Interesting that in reply to a fairly neutral response from me, you offered a fairly insulting and condescending dismissal.
Ad infinitum, btw, means (pretty much) forever. I believe you may have thought I meant 'ad nauseum,' which, for some, could apply here as well. I personally do not ever get nauseated at the mention of Christ.
Very good. That you get nauseated simply verifies your maturity
I have a question. In the OP you say: If I am wrong, why try to convince me? Shouldn't that apply on the end of the believer as well? Why is it okay for a believer to continue an argument ad infinitum, but not for a non believer to do the same? Why isn't the only appropriate response from both parties after expressing opposite views to simply agree to disagree and move on to other things?
I generally do not cut and paste and will probably never do it again. But I needed to read again, your kind and innocent "approach" (in quote vecause I know I have responded to you a few times since started) anyhow.
Correctly, the believer is not continuing an argument. Agreeing to disagree is cool, but they stay in thus conversation, although they disagree with the topic of the discussion. Am I wrong for continuing a conversation that I started? Should I stop talking because some do not agree? Seems like you are saying, "people don't agree with you so shut-up"
WWJS??? Mmm, get behind me???
I responded to your above message w/o checking the correct "ad". Thank you for the correction. Seems condescension works both ways. I am positive that I can out-"ad" you. But why? Jesus is the topic of discussion. We veer. But we must get back on track.
The words of Jesus are irreproachable. I screw up mine all the timeI am positive that you can outdo me in a great number of things.
I apologize if my response appeared condescending to you. It was not meant to be, but perhaps because I felt a sting in your reply, I became a bit defensive.
You may, of course, talk all you want about whatever you like. It's unfair, though, in my opinion, to expect others to back off when you refuse to do so yourself. Many of your responses appear to be of that tone.
Continued responses to others who believe differently from you can be construed to mean that you are listening to what they have to say. I only find that interesting because you said that listening to the ungodly is something that God has commanded you not to do. If that is the case, why continue a conversation with them?Think spiritually.
I am not the influenced. The sheep are safe with me. I stand firmly on what I believe. Salt stands out. Salt adds savor. Salt influences. Do you know what that means? All are in this conversation because of a question that I asked. All came to listen to me. If they think otherwise, well, good. I know what it means to be the salt of the earth.
And, I suppose I admire your effort. I just don't agree that your methods are necessarily as sound as you believe they are.
But if you feel a fight is necessary, fight a good one. I prefer to attempt to increase peace through discussions about things that I, as a human being, have the power to change. I can't fill a spiritual void for a single person on earth, but I can offer them love and respect. In your own way, I suppose that's what you're doing...but I'm willing to bet that you often feel as though you're beating your head against a wall. Personally, I don't think Jesus ever expected us to do that. He didn't.No banging. This is just practice. Much more severe battles lie ahead.
Love is longsuffering. It is easy to sit here and type out the next paragraph.
Only the word of God fills the spiritual void. Those who are spiritual, know what that word is. The purpose of Jesus was to save the lost. He came to free the captivated by sin and man-made law. He did that with the word of God. He was/is the word of God. If we follow him, we cannot lose any battle.
Even when it appears we have been killed; we get back up again.
I am not in over my head here. I actually have no head here Jesus is my covering. Genaea is a whole nother subject I would NEVER start a conversation about me here. The public would tear me to shreads!!! Jesus however, untouchable. The world had its chance. He returns with fire next time. but I will already be in the air those who remain will still have a chance but it aint gonna be pretty.Salt! Excellent point. The one who made the statement. You are the salt of the earth, meant what HE said. Salt at that point of history page, salt was known as food preservation, still is.
Those of who still ARE the salt have much to do with " preservation " - on- going of. A. social. System...Yes , this is a principle of the Universe : there's no life without the light . The ONE who has said " you are the light of the world " as well " you are the salt of the earth , " has pointed out that withou those who
" ARE " - those , fitting the category , are preserving , plus - the continues of " life" and living... There is much more to this, however, no one can ever denied the Univesal TRUTH .
Genaea's title to the thread says it all, it's a "Hot Button Topic" and she wants to keep it that way.
It is what it is. I haven't much power in determining the veracity. Henceforth, now, and until he returns. Hot Topic. Everybody wants to know
everybody ought to know I suppose you're right, ATM. Sigh.
I guess every now and then, even I like to push the hot button.Great reply, Marie. Kinda cold reply! Lost your words anyway?
When you are wise, even being " educated " won't make you brainwashed . Wisdom is superior to any type of education attempting to suppress your high moral and choice of ultimate truth .
This game " my " vs. " your" persuasion , my truth vs. your, is fair enough if someone stops making conclusions in the area the other person's belief, experience and the choice of using certain expressions and wordings .My name is Jessica. I have been on so many websites and got kicked off because nobody wants to hear the truth, that I got to say because they don't want to hear what they are doing wrong in the Holy Bible. I am a pretty harsh person because I have been teased, harassed for what I believe in, people teased me for the way I was and they called me names too. I don't have Facebook anymore because they got me for harassment because I was bugging people to much about God and people didn't want to talk to me because all I wanted to do is talk about God all the time. People were saying lies about me because I hope everybody would get the chance to go to Heaven, if you mock God then you will go somewhere you don't want to go, I am not a retard, I never stalked anybody's family, people would call the cops on me for sharing the gospel, that is sad, I pray for those people, my heart goes out for those kind of people, they need God the most and that is about it. I am no Fred Phelps, but some people see all Christians like that, but Christians have to change that. You know my soul goes out for the lost because I want God to help me evangelize to the lost too. My heart goes to the broken hearted because they need people around them to encourage them to get closer to God. My heart goes out to the people that need God the most like widows, poor, lost and people that are homeless too. I enjoy feeding the homeless because they see God in you and normally people don't go out there and just give people food. God is the most high and I will never fall away from him again because he can give me an abundant life, if I truly follow him, read the Holy Bible, pray, go to church and bless me for being his follower too. My favorite bible verses are things that change me for the better, so I like to know how I should act as a Christian and what I shouldn't do. I love Ezeikel, Psalm, 1 Corinthians, Titus and Titus because I research on those verses. I love the whole Holy Bible, so I can't pick my favorite out and I love Matthew too. We are saved by God's mercy through our faith in God. Faith means devote your life to God, mediate on God's word all the time, being disciples, reading the Holy Bible, living out the gospel, works without faith is dead and helping out the poor too. I hope you enjoy what you are reading and I hope you leave comments too.
Hi Jessica!
It is good to meet someone so elated about the message of Christ. He has touched your life in a marvelous way. But I wonder what in the world you could be doing to get booted from sites for bringing the message of Christ. Seeking out souls to win may be the wrong approach. (Only Jesus can save you.) An emphatic NO is always ok not everybody wants the message of Christ.
Conversation is good as long as you don't let it upset you or make you anxious. The bible says to be anxious for nothing. It turns into desperation, unchecked. Desperation makes one to make rash decisions and act without thought. The Lord wants us to control ourselves. Temperance is on the list of spiritual fruits.
Jesus was human; but he had much more power, as he is the son of God. It is wise to follow in his footsteps but we as humans have limitations that he did not have. We cannot "beat" the people out of the church but we can share the word of God. Listen to the words of Jesus.
Don't chase! God does it MUCH better than we
Thanks, I love speaking to those who love the Lord. Be blessed!
- genaeaposted 13 years ago0
Also Jessica, we as God's children are judged by our own standards. Be kind, be merciful, try not to promise people hell, people who don't yet know the Lord are frightened by hell and they think about it regularly. God knows who his children are. We cannot always tell. Our job is spreading the good news, not judgment (judgment belongs to God alone) You will surely need his mercy when you meet Him face-to-face
We ALL fall short of the mark. And we do make mistakes in our own lives. We can never "throw the first stone" Our own hands are dirty. Continue to walk with God. It works! Ezekiel 1
English Standard Version (ESV)
Ezekiel in Babylon
1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the exiles by the Chebar canal, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.[a] 2 On the fifth day of the month (it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin), 3 the word of the Lord came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the Chebar canal, and the hand of the Lord was upon him there.Romans 3-9:33
English Standard Version (ESV)
God's Righteousness Upheld
3 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”
5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
No One Is Righteous
9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off?[b] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being[c] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say was gained by[d] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[e] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
The Promise Realized Through Faith
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness[f] of Sarah's womb. 20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Peace with God Through Faith
5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we[g] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith[h] into this grace in which we stand, and we[i] rejoice[j] in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[k] because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore, as one trespass[l] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[m] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[n] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free[o] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[p] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Released from the Law
7 Or do you not know, brothers[q]—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.[r] 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.[s]
The Law and Sin
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Life in the Spirit
8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[t] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you[u] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[v] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus[w] from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers,[x] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[y] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Future Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[z] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[aa] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
God's Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be[ab] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.[ac] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,
“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
God's Sovereign Choice
9 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,[ad] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[ae] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel[af] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”
Israel's Unbelief
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[ag] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”James 4:4
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 You adulterous people![a] Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.Titus 1
English Standard Version (ESV)
Greeting
1 Paul, a servant[a] of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began[b] 3 and at the proper time manifested in his word through the preaching with which I have been entrusted by the command of God our Savior;
4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Qualifications for Elders
5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife,[c] and his children are believers[d] and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer,[e] as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound[f] doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party.[g] 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach. 12 One of the Cretans,[h] a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”[i] 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.Titus 2
English Standard Version (ESV)
Teach Sound Doctrine
2 But as for you, teach what accords with sound[a] doctrine. 2 Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. 3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. 6 Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. 7 Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, 8 and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. 9 Bondservants[b] are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 3 English Standard Version (ESV)
Be Ready for Every Good Work
3 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Final Instructions and Greetings
12 When I send Artemas or Tychicus to you, do your best to come to me at Nicopolis, for I have decided to spend the winter there. 13 Do your best to speed Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their way; see that they lack nothing. 14 And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.
15 All who are with me send greetings to you. Greet those who love us in the faith.
Grace be with you all.I think I am starting to "get it".
Several pages of scripture?????????
Who of this conversation will read or absorb any of it? I love the bible and the precious words contained therein, but Whew!!! There is a time, and a place for such activity. I don't even think the Lord would hit the people like that the word has to be broken up. It has to be digested. But your post was an 11course meal, with "fixins" and bread. The people are stuffed. Maybe two or three verses will be remembered in all. If read. Wow! Please tell me what your purpose was? Was there a "certain" message you wanted to convey?
I think that is called spamming. Spammers are not usually interested in conversing. lol
Why post out of context? Here is the whole thing:
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. "
Good thing too, because by world standards I doubt anyone able to read this on any computer doesn't qualify as "rich".Ha!!! I just said that didn't I??? Our God is AWESOME.
So, it's impossible to get into heaven if you have money, but not impossible for God to let you in? Impossible and possible at the same time. Sure that makes sense. NOT.
This is an example of arguing over words. You prefer the lie. I The bible talks about that too.
LIsten very carefully.
I did not say you lied. I said that you prefer the lie. The lie is that the bible is contradictory. If you want to understand it, ask. That is all you have to do. It will happen as you study it. It is not about looking at the verse that makes you the angriest. It is about looking at what was said, why it was said and who it was said to. And in most cases, who said it. Just as in todays conversations. If I say I'm hot. I could be saying quite a few things right??? You cannot take the phrase "I'm hot" and take it to mean that I am vain and saying that I am really really sexy. I could need some air, I could be really angry, or I could be "in the mood". You cannot understand what I am saying unless you are there. Otherwise, you need all the other information to get the gist of what I meant. Right???
Ten years from now, people will repeat the phrase, "Genaea said she was hot about ten years ago." Many people will speculate about what I mean. Some will say, "Boy that chick really thought she was the "sh^t". Some will say, "Maybe she was going through the change" and others... well you get my point right. Only those who know me best will know what I really meant. And what I definitely did NOT mean.You are just full on contradictions.
"I did not say you lied. I said that you prefer the lie." So you didn't say I lied, just I'd prefer to lie, but I didn't lie, I just like to lie. WHAT?
It's imposible for the rich to get into heaven, unless God lets them then it's not impossible, so does that mean it's possible for the rich to get into heaven only Jesus lied?
God doesn't decide who gets money, he just gives it to however he wishes.
And you don't question any of this?You prefer the lie means that you prefer to believe the lie. It is not that you prefer to lie. Although it is the result. It is a lie to say that the word of God is corrupt. It is a lie to say that Jesus contradicts God. And it is a lie to say that I am lying about any of it. If you want to understand it we can take it from the top. Else, you can take what you have gotten from this conversation and.... uh... learn later.
Sorry, I must have read (the) as (to) I guess. At least it looked like (to) yesterday. My dyslexic brain does it again.
Dyslexia is not your issue. You are so busy calling me a liar, that you think I should go there too.
nope!!
It was the yesterday too. But that is where your brain is. Calm down.Why must you be so mean when someone is apologizing? And I don't think I've ever called you a liar. Calm down? I just said sorry. That's calm isn't it?
Shocking aggression from some of these "believers." You would think they would be calm and collected - but no.
Strangely she thinks she understand dyslexia, but doesn't think dyslexic's make errors while reading. Even after I apologies she feels she needs to tell me why I was wrong to apologies for being dyslexic, according to her I should apologies for calling her a liar? Which is ridiculous because I don't think she lies, I think she believes her delusions.
We ALL make mistakes reading from time to time, Sir. I do understand that. Apologizing is great, we just need to be more careful BEFORE we jump off... You apologized i guess because you realized your mistake. Good!
I would like a cordial conversation, but hey, we are discussing Jesus.
Do you know that some people consider him IMAGINARY???Well - what do you expect? She is delusional after all.
Now see you??? You gotta have the sword.
You have been mislead so long that you aggress in an attempt to "stupify" the Christian with your snide and canned remarks. It just will not work with me because I do know what I am speaking on.
Aggression is your baby, but God is quite a bit more aggressive, and intelligent too. you cannot "bark him down" nor "shame" him. Your "arms" are "just too short" No - I am just honest. Sorry if that offends you. God is aggressive huh?
Crikey. You are the troll Ciax at al.
Good job. Never noticed before. Very well disguised.
ciaoI had a friend look under your skirt. You aren't in Europe. Very well disguised.
Are you hooked on this thread, or what? You are attracted to the cross.
I add smiles to my posts because most things I say are said with a smile on my face. It makes for friendly conversation when people don't view it as "phony". It's just me.
I usually wear a smile. Conversation to me is just that. I anger slowly.
Sometimes truth sounds a bit rough but that is one of the disadvantages of simply reading my words without the facial expression. I am probably the SWEETEST most KIND person you will ever meet. When you were going "off" on me because I called you a liar; I could only and explain to you what I actually meant. I am not mean or angry. I'm truthful. I have a heart for God. He expects me to be as kind to you as I want you to be to me. And that is what I strive for. I must admit though that constantly being mislabled a liar is a bit frustrating. God hates a lying tongue. I can't allow myself to purposefully do it (especially while talking about him) cuz I do err in that area from time to time. But lying about God seems dangerous in another way, to me.
We have peace between us. see???Of course, but it may help you to know that the smily face while telling someone to calm down after they gave an honest apology could mean many things including condescending.
Right, I do understand that. But you know me.
I'm the smiley-face queen!!! I add a smile because that is what my face is doing. I am not condescending. I know that I have no right to be. I am only truthful. They say it hurts sometimes and of that, I am aware. Please know that I have nothing but the best intentions. My God knows that.
Stop being so condescending yourself. the conversation may take a turn.
Did you read my "hot" post???
Very few people who are rich gained their riches honestly and morally. They usually trample over people to get what they want. When I was a kid my family was rich, but later found out that my dad got the money from taking money from his company which he had no right to do. The business folded. Then he got his new lush house from a man who lost it in a bet he had with his father. It is completely and utterly immoral but that's the story.
You can see rich people who are drug dealers that made them money. Money corrupts and that is why Jesus said that it is harder for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than enter the kingdom of heaven. Those who love their riches cannot love Jesus at the same time.
This is why the rich man did not want to put Jesus before his riches. The thought of humility and accepting money has a way to survive instead of it serving our every whim did not appeal to Him. Jesus could plant the seed and knew what the rich man would do later on in life. The rich man was not ready to give up his wealth then but maybe when he spiritually grows in life, if he allows himself to, he will realize that life is not about putting ourselves first.Claire, corruption is not why the bible says Jesus says it's impossible for a rich man to get into heaven. You missed the point as well as why there is a contradiction. A rich man can't get into heaven because he is not being charitable with him riches. You are only charitable when you are poor. Think of Bill Gates, he is know giving his money back, not to get into heaven but to just give back.
The contradiction is that while Jesus said it's impossible for a rich man to get into heaven he also said that God can make it happen. Well, if God can make it happen it's not impossible.If you read the parable, you'll see that Jesus said it was "harder for a rich man to get into Heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle" after the rich man walked away from Jesus. Jesus said the man had to give away everything he owned in order to have eternal life. The man didn't do that, he became sad, because he was very rich.
Here's a commentary about it:
" Barnes' Notes on the Bible
It is easier for a camel ... - This was a proverb in common use among the Jews, and is still common among the Arabians.
A rich man - This rather means one who loves his riches and makes an idol of them, or one who supremely desires to be rich. Mark says Mark 10:24 "How hard is it for them that trust in riches." While a man has this feeling - relying on his wealth alone - it is literally impossible that he should be a Christian; for religion is a love of God rather than the world - the love of Jesus and his cause more than gold. Still a man may have much property, and not have this feeling. He may have great wealth, and love God more; as a poor man may have little, and love that little more than God. The difficulties in the way of the salvation of a rich man are:
1. that riches engross the affections.
2. that people consider wealth as the chief good, and when this is obtained they think they have gained all.
3. that they are proud of their wealth, and unwilling to be numbered with the poor and despised followers of Jesus.
4. that riches engross the time, and fill the mind with cares and anxieties, and leave little for God.
5. that they often produce luxury, dissipation, and vice. that it is difficult to obtain wealth without sin, without avarice, without covetousness, fraud, and oppression, 1 Timothy 6:9-10, 1 Timothy 6:17; James 5:1-5; Luke 12:16-21; Luke 16:19-31.
Still, Jesus says Matthew 19:26, all these may be overcome. God can give grace to do it. Though to people it may appear impossible, yet it is easy for God."
The point is, the rich man can't get into Heaven as long as the money is more important than God. I applaud Bill Gates for his charity, but as long as he puts God second to anything, he's just a (sort of) nice guy (if you believe the biography of Steve Jobs.)I don't think I said anything other than what you said. I personally have no idea if Bill Gates has faith or not because it's irrelevant to me. What is relevant is that he's giving back. I do think I tried to explain it the same way you did. A follower of Jesus would do as Jesus did and help other before himself. That is not what Claire described at all.
I missed this one. Rich! Really, really rich.
I have been speaking truth, the bible confirms the spirit this time too but, the "lie" is preferred. The lie is preferred. 
black/white thinking just causes gray sometimes.
Why is he not charitable with his riches? Because he loves money before Jesus. And it is not true that you are only charitable if you are poor. That's nonsense.
Well, you don't know much about Bill Gates. He donated a lot of money to the Lucis Trust established by Alice Bailey. And, well, she was a Satanist. Lucis Trust was formerly know as Lucifer Trust. His money goes into planned parenthood by the Melinda and Bill Gates Foundation.
He funds the damage to the ozone layer:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 … un-balloon
Funding Genetically modified food to enslave Africa:
http://www.infowars.com/bill-gates-dump … of-africa/
Experts call WHO & Bill Gates Foundation's role in India's polio eradication campaign unethical. Causes paralysis.
He admits he funds these vaccines to reduce the human population. In other words, that must mean it causes sterility and deaths, etc. In other words, eugenics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WQtRI7A … re=related
http://pharmabiz.com/NewsDetails.aspx?a … &sid=1
God can't make a person worship Him over money. A rich man, however, can later on in life finally realize that too much money is corruption. With the help of God, a rich man can part with his riches.Correct, when a rich man parts with his riches he becomes poor. Hence, the bible says it's impossible to get a rich man into heaven. As I said, according the the bible a rich man must give his money to charity to get into heaven. It has nothing to do with corruption.
In the context of me saying the rich man can part with his riches means that which makes him rich, not all of his money.
Nope, a rich man parting with his riches makes him charitable and eventually poor. One could say he is rich in charity. But just calling him rich implies money, which unless he give it to the poor he would be rich and unable to get into heaven, according the the bible. So if there are any rich people out there and they want to get into heaven, pass that money down to me. You'll get into heaven and I'll drive a few nice cars.
No, riches are all things that are opulent. In other words, things you don't need because of greed. It doesn't mean that you must give up all your money. Lol, that doesn't make sense because should the rich man become poor, he'll need another rich man to give him money!
The whole crux of the matter is that if one worships wealth over Jesus, they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God does not expect us to be poor. He will provide for our needs but not for our greed.Good point. Preachers from long ago until this very day, try to preach that God wants to make you rich; (they omit the "in spirit" part) your only obstacle to riches, is that you do not support "his house/the church" enough. (they really mean their house) Sad, but true. Again, if you read the bible for yourself, you find that God can feed a multitude of people with little to nothing. He can put a coin in the mouth of a fish. He can even RAIN bread. HE DOES NOT NEED YOUR MONEY.
he wants you.You are seriously over the edge young lady and I advise you to get professional help.
All the preachers are wrong and in your bible you think that it will rain bread and millions of people will be fed on nothing ???
You surely must realise that this is the ravings of a lunatic ? the bible you think you understand is saying these things as metaphors, as you clearly do not understand the first thing about reading it would behove you to not try to educate those that can,Um, which version are YOU reading??? It was not a metaphor. Jesus took the loaves and fish and fed thousands, with baskets left over. He also sent one of his followers to the mouth of a fish to find money to pay taxes. These were miracles to show the hand of God. He can do anything. He also actuslly rained bread on the ones he freed from the hand of the pharoh, and that was their food until they complained and "bled" birds, Young Man/Lady.
So you demonstrate that you do not know what a metaphor is - thanks for proving me right so quickly.
Are you serious?
i know metaphor. And I know bible. How are you in those areas?Clearly better in both. I had a real education that has resulted in me now being a senior English teacher and a deluge of propoganda because I was brought up in a catholic convent that means I knwo the bible inside out.
And you are wrong on both counts, your 'reading' of the bible is childish and plain wrong, and you do not understand metaphor.Well thank you. I am always willing to learn more about the God I serve. Please tell me about my mistakes. I need to be all that I can be in this area. And I thought my stuff was tight. Will you please correct me?
ok - let's start with metaphor.
A metaphor is where the bible tells you a story which is not actually true, this is done to give you information that you CAN understand about something (that if told straight) you can't understand.
Taking your words of " . . sent one of his followers to the mouth of a fish to get money to pay taxes . . " There are two possibilities -
1. someone was actually sent to the fish to find money and came back empty handed - which then begs the questions - why and what does it mean ?
2. this is just a story, which serves exactly the same function so whether it was a real event or not does not matter.
So the fish story is not about your jesus making you rich, it is not about feeding people, it is not even about a fish, it may not be true, and it could have been written by god as you claim elsewhere or by my grandmother, it would be exactly the same point and who wrote it or did it or inspired it - doesn't matter. Does it?Wow! You have actually surprised me.
I was sure that you would return with something I had to ponder.
Your correction is not reflective of an extensive education in bible. Your possibilities are almost a seeming fabrication.
You did not explain the stories as they actually are.
The definition of metaphor was wonderful, but it does not fit in this scenario.I am afraid that you did not surprise me at all.
I knew already that you do not understand how metaphors and all the other story telling and teaching devices work. Because I do, and I teach it to modern people who have had a good education, you would not get into any of the universities I teach at because you do not understand even the basics.
I already knew that you do not understand one word of what you read. Because you are uneducated.
I came back to edit this because I forgot the main point.
The bible is what you say, it is a fabrication of stories that are intended to teach a set of values and guidance for a way of life. The stories do have an endless range of meanings, unfortunately you are barred from accessing them because your understanding level is somewhere around that of a five year old child in this respect.Blessings to you for such a WONDERFUL compliment. I definitely tried to ensure that I came "to God as a child." Surely, you know this metaphor. I got WAY empty.
The parables were spoken. Yes. Jesus explained a lot of them. But the feeding of the multitude that he preached to was actual. He did not want to send them on their long journeys without food for fear that they would become faint. He even spoke about the matter later. Remember???
The coin story was actual too. "Give Caesar his", was Jesus' accompanying statement.
Please, teach your people the right things. God can actually do great things for real. There are penalties for leading astray. This can grow into important matters.
"He that is faithful in least..." Surely you know that metaphor too.The fact that you do not understand metaphor leads you to thinking it was a compliment. The 'come to me as a child ' metaphor does not mean to make yourself stupid.
And a parable is not a metaphor.Well!!! Now the bible speaks in that kind of code??? And YOU have been blessed to "unlock" the messages. Do you charge a fee???
I have no questions for you. Only information. When I asked, you gave me "($)@&!!" and then had will to to get fancy with calling me stupid. nevermind, I will stick with what I know.
The metaphor/parable of the coming as a child means that you must forget what you think you know; want and need what he has, and ask him. Then believe what he says. Like kids do. they are needy and dependant.
Let me give you another parable/metaphor: God cannot fill a "cup" that's full already.There is no blessed about any of it. You just have trouble reading and understanding and I am just pointing that out to you.
I did not call you stupid, you did that all by yourself.
In your example, forgetting all you know does not mean to forget how to read and write, or forget how to think - it is about what you think.
So - I will trade you metaphors, from Forest Gump - "stupid is as stupid does"
and you will notice that the source is not important at all, it is only about the meaning in the words, so it does not matter if the words you seek to understand come from any god, or any writer at any time, they are only as valid and useful as the meaning we get from them.
This is why there have always been teachers and translators of any 'holy' book, because they require a degree of education to be able to understand them. That the teachers and translators have taken advantage of that fact for so long does not change the need for it. You are no teacher or translator - so you should stop with trying and reconcile yourself to beng an perpetual student, or just do what you are told by someone who you think might know - good luck with finding one.Aaaawwwww... You mad at me? I hate that. I thought you wanted the truth. The bible does not take education to understand. Just faith.
I don't mind the stupid metaphor. You can only speak what you know personally. As I.
I do know what I am saying. You had the wrong educator. You should have chosen another. But it is not too late. You are still here.I know your problem - it is not necessary for you to continually demonstrate your lack of understanding.
It is not necessary to respond any more - you and I both know that you know nothing, that is enough, unless of course you would like to fly out here and join one of my English classes.Ok one more please...
I cannot join your class, but I can take notes and correct your statements for those who really want to know the truth.
Your demonstration of knowledge is severely lacking if you teach people that Jesus did not really feed that many people, so it is obviously a metaphor. They may read the chapter a little further and realize that Jesus spoke about feeding the people to his "tribe" as a testament to what he is capable of. As well as a swift tongue lashing for lacking in faith.I did not mention any feeding people - I used the coins from the fishes mouth story - don't try to answer things I did not say. Trying to twist things is a big give away that you have no answers. This kind of confusion and twisting things around is called 'lying for jesus' in most places, although in your case it is probably just that you are confused.
I would never teach anyone about anything religious. I teach English and Critical Thinking, which is how to read and understand what you read through your own reasoning ability.
Well, if God wants them to be rich then Jesus ought to have been and He wasn't. Have they not heard of this saying, "The root of all evil is the love of money"?
Sadly, that does not get mentioned with that sermon. They are appealing to greed. People think how nice it would be to have this and that, so they fall. They "sew their seeds" waiting for that money tree to pop up. Well, it turns into a never-ending circle of, you just gotta "sew a bigger seed" next time. They give and give, but they are chasing money. Not God. You cannot serve the two.
The millionaire that God accepts, does not look to cash for their answers. They look to God. They care how he sees them.
Yes God made Job rich. But his heart had been tested. He was a faithful servant of God after he had lost everything. God knew that he could be trusted.
LOL
Rad, if I had any wealth to pass on to you, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
My personal education on these particular verses has always pointed to spiritual wealth/poverty. It's the attachment to material possessions that keeps a rich person from entering Heaven. If a rich person can relinquish his/her possessions to follow Christ, then they acknowledge their spiritual poverty. Ultimately, we are all poor before God - and the ability to recognize that is what matters. Besides, if a rich person gives away all he/she has to the poor - then do those poor people then become rich? And in that case, isn't that a vicious cycle?How come I can't find a charitable rich person trying to buy their way into heaven?
What I mean by poor is not out on the streets poor. Just not rich. You know I don't think there is even a heaven. I'm just using what the bible says about the rich to see how people justify holding onto that money. That's how the tele-vangulists take advantage of the elderly.Truth.
There are some charitable (materially) rich folks out there. Those of them who are believers are often willing to help improve the quality of life for those of us who are less than wealthy.You mean like these folks?
Dig the gilded thrones.You've never heard of Trinity Broadcasting Network?
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They spread it all over the world!
They flaunt their opulence.
Did I say that they flaunt their opulence?
They are rich folks!
Rich folks preaching "seed" prosperity doctrine. The seed is the $$$ you send in. It will be returned back to you by God at a rate of 10, a 100 or even a thousand fold. You must have the faith to plant that $$$ seed. So, get up and go to the phone! Send it now! Obey the Lord! Send it now!
The same crew operates this theme park.
Hallelujah! A record gate at fifty bucks a pop!
Join Moses and the kids. They are going to part the waters after lunch.
See for yourself http://www.tbn.org/That's why people who actually take their theology seriously throw out their televisions.
Paul and Jan are the definition of huckster.Ouch!
That is why reading the bible for yourself, makes a BIG difference. The financial prosperity message is a lie. The bible tells us that. Only those who don't know God for themselves are fooled. One must know him personally. One must get to know what "false" really is.
1 Peter 3:15 ESV / 68 helpful votes
But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
Colossians 4:6 ESV / 36 helpful votes
Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.
Mark 16:15-16 ESV / 31 helpful votes
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Romans 1:16 ESV / 29 helpful votes
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Matthew 28:18-20 ESV / 22 helpful votes
And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Acts 1:8 ESV / 13 helpful votes
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
John 3:17 ESV / 12 helpful votes
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
John 3:16-20 ESV / 12 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Mark 16:15 ESV / 12 helpful votes
And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.
Romans 15:13 ESV / 10 helpful votes
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.
Acts 2:37-38 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Luke 24:46-49 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
Matthew 5:16 ESV / 9 helpful votes
In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
John 3:16-17 ESV / 8 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Mark 16:16 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
2 Corinthians 5:18-21 ESV / 6 helpful votes
All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Romans 6:23 ESV / 6 helpful votes
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 3:23 ESV / 6 helpful votes
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Matthew 28:19-20 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
1 Corinthians 9:22 ESV / 5 helpful votes
To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
Acts 17:2 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
Mark 15:16 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And the soldiers led him away inside the palace (that is, the governor's headquarters), and they called together the whole battalion.
Mark 1:5 ESV / 5 helpful votes
And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Isaiah 40:10 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Behold, the Lord God comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him.
Psalm 1:1-6 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; ...
1 Peter 3:1-2 ESV / 4 helpful votes
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.
John 4:31-38 ESV / 4 helpful votes
Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, then comes the harvest’? Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest. ...
Isaiah 43:10 ESV / 3 helpful votes
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
PennyofHeaven why do you call yourself a Christian when you call other Christians spammers on here? What do you think of witnessing to people on here? Can I do that? Good luck to you. I will be praying for you. Be light to this world. God bless you.Jessica, Posting many many many words of scripture is not witnessing. It is viewed as a bit "much". As you can probably tell, not everyone agrees on the interpretation of scripture. It is a bad thing to force someone to look at scripture. you make it an eyesore. The word is not to be handled so carelessly, it will turn most away. Please. Talk. Tell what you have learned from living the scripture that you have quoted.
Your posts appear to be spam-like. I am not judging you, I am looking at the posts that you have presented. Great in some arenas, but this just is not one of them. Words from scripture are just words when you don't know what they mean. most people here are in that category.
I decided to wait it out and be guy's friend, first and get to know him better because he is in a difficult position right now and he needs a friend more than anything. I want to be a Godly friend to him and nothing else for right now. I want to read bible verses with him, encourage him to get closer to God, be a mentor first time in my life, be a row model, go to church together, pray together and my brother is his friend too. What is going on? How are you doing? Thanks for all your support.
It is sad when Christians view other Christians as spammers, so does that mean they are denying the word of God. As Christians we are supposed to mediate on God's word day and night, Christians are supposed to support their fellow Christians, Christians are supposed to witness together, live out the gospel, read the Holy Bible, pray together, God can only give somebody the Holy Spirit and I pray for all you lost souls at there. If they deny God's word, then they deny God, sorry it had to be this way. John the Baptist risked his life and told truth, but he got beheaded for it. Several people went to prison because they shared the word of God, but God had them save souls in jail too. We are saved by God's mercy through our faith in God. Why do you have a faith in God? Why do you not want to read it? What do you believe in? Why is that? Why is this stuff an eye sore for you? Can you not take the truth? What is going on? How are you feeling? Good luck to you. God bless you.
Where are you Jessica? I am not trying to fight with you, I am giving you biblical priniciple to back up what I am saying. God is a gentleman. In most times of the life of Jesus, he was sought out. He was asked to come. He only went into the church "uninvited" and gave those people a whipping. He whipped the church!!! He whipped his own. To sinners, he was kind, gentle, loving, merciful, and a friend. He did not spout out scriptures to those who followed to hear him. He gave lessons from those scriptures. Not many can even understand the scriptures. And kindly/rudely posting tons of it without explanation is unfair. If you are witnessing, then you are talking to the sinner. He does not understand scripture at all. Remember???
My situation was something to talk about. I am talking now. How do you like it? What do you want to talk about it? Faith without works is dead. It was nice talking to you. God bless you. Talk to you later.
Are you angry with me? I am not trying to hurt you or upset you. I am only trying to show you how to witness without getting banned. You are no good to the sinner if you cannot talk to him right??? Now you are angry with me???? I thought you said you wanted to learn how to witness. It is not kind to push scriptures into the faces of people. It is somewhat harsh. Do you understand? I am not trying to upset you. It is really important that you know. Are you ok? Will you talk to me about Jesus?
God can only bring people to him so God truly doesn't need us, but he uses us anyways. God can only give people the Holy Spirit. God will put people in their life to help them plant the mustard seed in their life. God will put people in your life to help you experience things that you know is wrong at the time, but you did it anyways then you learned from it and then became your testimony, so you can share with other people and you can help those people to get a life with God in it. You can end up saving somebody that was going to end it all. God will all have amazing things happen, but it is on God's timing. You know if you didn't go through those experiences then you wouldn't be close to God as you are, now. Do not regret anything in your life because it will only bring you down. God has things happen for a reason. God can only make things turn out to be good in the end. How are you doing? What else would you like to share with me?
Hebrews 11:1-40
English Standard Version (ESV)
By Faith
11 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God. 11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back. 20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. 21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. 24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, 25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. 31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. 35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. 36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two,[a] they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
I believe in everything in the Holy Bible. What about you? What is going on? God bless you.Most of the people you have on here are the ones that got me banned because they got tired of me hitting them up with bible verses. It is sad that they don't understand it. Why are they so lost? Why do they argue on here? Why do we have to defend ourselves? What is going on? That is why I am following now. They have left me a lone. God's people are smarter than their enemies. Beware of some of these people on here.
God has not given us the spirit of fear. It is not necessary to be a pain in the butt to spread the message of God. To make it an eyesore is what you are doing. When your posts come up, people ignore. And it is the word of God. Is that what you want??? God does not want us handling the word so irresponsibly. His people are the ones that the bible is written for. Are you posting for the "saints"?
I know who he/she is I think. Remember the guy who posted bible verses with all the colour?
This user used to be 'kikilari.' Was banned a while back.
I was thinking it was that Isaic guy. I don't think I got the spelling correct.
Well, I only think that because minutes after creating this account, she sent me a fan mail asking if I remembered her and why I argued with her about religion...and told me she was kikilari.
LoL, the Great Prophet Elijah, you mean? Who told me that God would wake me up every morning at 4 am til I gave in to Him. LoL. Been sleeping soundly well past 4.
How did he do that? Did he have a Java app?
You mean Elijah13? He was a kook, but he was a busy kook. He could load up forums and hubs at the same time.
Funny how you finally see it from our perspective.
Ooooohhhh youuuuu
I am really the one standing on the "street corner". But do you just leave me to my "folly???" Noooooo You gotta stop! Point snickering fingers. Change my mind.
Shucks!!! You could be on to "greener" pastures by now but nooooo you just gotta STAY and set me straight??? You don't like me on THIS corner??? Should I cross the street, Sir? Do you want me to go back to the "motherland"? Um... Should I get your "written consent" once I choose another spot? Or can it be well with you that I stay here, and continue my conversation with the others who may not be so pained, while you continue on with your own UN Godly business, elsewhere? Or stay. Dang!!!
85 Bible Verses about
Mockers
2 Peter 3:3 ESV / 4 helpful votes
Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.
Luke 11:28 ESV / 4 helpful votes
But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Revelation 19:11-16 ESV / 3 helpful votes
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. ...
James 1:2-4 ESV / 3 helpful votes
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Acts 20:28 ESV / 3 helpful votes
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.
John 1:12 ESV / 3 helpful votes
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Matthew 27:46 ESV / 3 helpful votes
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
Matthew 16:18 ESV / 3 helpful votes
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Psalm 119:1-176 ESV / 3 helpful votes
Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord! Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways! You have commanded your precepts to be kept diligently. Oh that my ways may be steadfast in keeping your statutes! ...
Psalm 1:1-3 ESV / 3 helpful votes
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers.
Deuteronomy 25:4 ESV / 3 helpful votes
“You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain.
Revelation 22:18 ESV / 2 helpful votes
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
Revelation 5:9 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
1 John 5:20 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
1 Peter 2:1-25 ESV / 2 helpful votes
So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good. As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ...
1 Peter 1:1-25 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. ...
James 2:10 ESV / 2 helpful votes
For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
James 1:22 ESV / 2 helpful votes
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
James 1:20 ESV / 2 helpful votes
For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 6:18 ESV / 2 helpful votes
So that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us.
Hebrews 4:12 ESV / 2 helpful votes
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Titus 1:2 ESV / 2 helpful votes
In hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began
2 Timothy 3:16 ESV / 2 helpful votes
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 2:15 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
1 Timothy 5:23 ESV / 2 helpful votes
(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
Colossians 2:16 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
Colossians 1:18 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Ephesians 4:11 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Ephesians 3:1-21 ESV / 2 helpful votes
For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. ...
Ephesians 1:11 ESV / 2 helpful votes
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Galatians 1:1-24 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers who are with me, To the churches of Galatia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen. ...
1 Corinthians 15:1-58 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ...
1 Corinthians 6:19 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
Romans 12:21 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 8:28 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Romans 7:12 ESV / 2 helpful votes
So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
Romans 5:2 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 4:3 ESV / 2 helpful votes
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Acts 20:35 ESV / 2 helpful votes
In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”
Acts 2:1-47 ESV / 2 helpful votes
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. ...
John 17:3 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 15:3 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you.
John 13:17 ESV / 2 helpful votes
If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
John 10:35 ESV / 2 helpful votes
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
John 3:33 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true.
John 3:16-17 ESV / 2 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
John 1:1 ESV / 2 helpful votes
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Luke 18:31 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And taking the twelve, he said to them, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished.
Luke 16:17 ESV / 2 helpful votes
But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
Mark 7:5 ESV / 2 helpful votes
And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?”
Matthew 26:54 ESV / 2 helpful votes
But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”
Matthew 26:24 ESV / 2 helpful votes
The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”
Matthew 19:4 ESV / 2 helpful votes
He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female,
Matthew 5:17 ESV / 2 helpful votes
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 5:1-48 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. ...
Jeremiah 10:10 ESV / 2 helpful votes
But the Lord is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King. At his wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure his indignation.
Isaiah 65:16 ESV / 2 helpful votes
So that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hidden from my eyes.
Isaiah 1:2 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth; for the Lord has spoken: “Children have I reared and brought up, but they have rebelled against me.
Proverbs 30:1-33 ESV / 2 helpful votes
The words of Agur son of Jakeh. The oracle. The man declares, I am weary, O God; I am weary, O God, and worn out. Surely I am too stupid to be a man. I have not the understanding of a man. I have not learned wisdom, nor have I knowledge of the Holy One. Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know! Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. ...
Proverbs 29:11 ESV / 2 helpful votes
A fool gives full vent to his spirit, but a wise man quietly holds it back.
Proverbs 25:28 ESV / 2 helpful votes
A man without self-control is like a city broken into and left without walls.
Proverbs 23:29-35 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who tarry long over wine; those who go to try mixed wine. Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder. Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart utter perverse things. ...
Proverbs 15:1 ESV / 2 helpful votes
A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Proverbs 8:34 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Blessed is the one who listens to me, watching daily at my gates, waiting beside my doors.
Psalm 119:140 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Your promise is well tried, and your servant loves it.
Psalm 119:105 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
Psalm 111:7 ESV / 2 helpful votes
The works of his hands are faithful and just; all his precepts are trustworthy;
Psalm 22:1 ESV / 2 helpful votes
To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
Psalm 19:7 ESV / 2 helpful votes
The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
Psalm 18:30 ESV / 2 helpful votes
This God—his way is perfect; the word of the Lord proves true; he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
Psalm 16:10 ESV / 2 helpful votes
For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, or let your holy one see corruption.
Psalm 12:6 ESV / 2 helpful votes
The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.
Psalm 2:12 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Psalm 2:1-12 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, ...
Psalm 1:1-6 ESV / 2 helpful votes
Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water that yields its fruit in its season, and its leaf does not wither. In all that he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but are like chaff that the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous; ...
2 Chronicles 31:21 ESV / 1 helpful vote
And every work that he undertook in the service of the house of God and in accordance with the law and the commandments, seeking his God, he did with all his heart, and prospered.
Joshua 1:8 ESV / 1 helpful vote
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.
Deuteronomy 25:1-19 ESV / 1 helpful vote
“If there is a dispute between men and they come into court and the judges decide between them, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty, then if the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall cause him to lie down and be beaten in his presence with a number of stripes in proportion to his offense. Forty stripes may be given him, but not more, lest, if one should go on to beat him with more stripes than these, your brother be degraded in your sight. “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain. “If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her. ...
Deuteronomy 4:2 ESV / 1 helpful vote
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.
Numbers 23:19 ESV / 1 helpful vote
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
Exodus 20:13 ESV / 1 helpful vote
“You shall not murder.
Genesis 15:18 ESV / 1 helpful vote
On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,
Genesis 15:6 ESV / 1 helpful vote
And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 2:7 ESV / 1 helpful vote
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
Genesis 1:1 ESV / 1 helpful vote
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.Are you saying that people that went to prison or died risking their lives for God because they shared the gospel then they are wrong? People don't want to hear the truth. What do you think of people risking their lives for God? What is going on? I almost went to prison because I shared the gospel like this, but you know I had an answer for my faith and knew how to outsmart my enemies too. They called me retard, Fred Phelps, talking bad about my faith in God, mock God, mocked me, telling me that I am ignorant, told me that I wear a helmet and other bad things too. That is what some of these did to me on here too. Beware of these people on here. I will pray for you. God bless you,
Why do you think you need to fight for an all powerful God? Do you not trust that God can fight Gods own battle. Assuming there is a battle which I highly doubt. Do you not think that God can spread Gods own messages. You are limiting the nature of God if you think you have to fight or rally behind a cause on God's behalf. It seems that you are trying to limit an all powerful God to fit in the confines of a limited mind. A mind that appears to be anchored purely by the trappings of ego.
Jesus told his people to be deliverers of his message.
Ego is a big "self" ball. How can one who magnifies another, other than self still be driven by ego? I cannot understand tgat statement. It seems as though the people who magnify selfish knowledge and selfish thoughts to feel independant of a RULER who guides your life would be considered the supposed SELF-sufficient, know-better-than-thats-because-IM SO SMART ego driven. Yes???I realize you don't understand. No worries. It's all good.
My mother told me once when I was young that God made us in His image, and we've been trying to return the favor ever since.
I agree with you completely, Penny. God has the capability to fight any battle on His own.Your Mother might have been right. It has certainly appeared that way.
I would suggest you to leave some of these people alone because they will only make you defensive by their offensive comments because I have been through with some of these people. I am back on here to keep these people away, so they don't make anybody else stumble on here. I am just trying to help you out. We all witness in different ways. I witness in the truth and God has helped me lead people to him, so God is using me and don't judge me how I witness to people. I might not like how you witness to people. I am protecting you. What do you think? How are you doing?
I am not takng suggestions on who to or not talk to at this time. I have no judgment for you. I am only telling the truth. It is not profitable to post your posts. It ONLY makes the pages longer and we all know that's a drag.
Witness is telling of the good news of Jesus. You must explain scripture to those who don't know it. We must understand it first ourselves.
What you are doing is not witness, nor is it protection. It is revenge of some sort. Butwe know that God handles that for us. Right? The word of God is precious. I must admit I haven't read very much of it at all. But I guess I know it already. Please. Cool it with the scriptures. It just seems wrong. Please. Please Please
Why are putting other Christians down when you are a Christian? Do you know God's calling for me? Why are you judging my witnessing style? Why are trying to win a debate? Debating with a Christian is pushing other Christians away. I am not trying to debate with any of you. You are making yourselves look bad by debating with another Christian. That is unprofitable. God made me this way for a reason, so leave me a lone or I will flag you.
37 Bible Verses about
Arguing
2 Timothy 2:24 ESV / 140 helpful votes
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2 Timothy 2:23-24 ESV / 110 helpful votes
Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
Philippians 2:14 ESV / 86 helpful votes
Do all things without grumbling or questioning,
Romans 12:19 ESV / 62 helpful votes
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Proverbs 15:1 ESV / 52 helpful votes
A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Titus 3:1-2 ESV / 47 helpful votes
Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 ESV / 34 helpful votes
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...
Romans 14:19 ESV / 31 helpful votes
So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
Proverbs 3:30 ESV / 29 helpful votes
Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm.
1 Peter 2:21 ESV / 28 helpful votes
For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.
2 Timothy 3:16 ESV / 26 helpful votes
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
James 3:17 ESV / 19 helpful votes
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
Galatians 5:22-23 ESV / 18 helpful votes
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
John 18:36 ESV / 17 helpful votes
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.”
Deuteronomy 4:2 ESV / 15 helpful votes
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.
James 5:1-20 ESV / 14 helpful votes
Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. ...
James 3:9-12 ESV / 14 helpful votes
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.
Matthew 5:1-7:29 ESV / 12 helpful votes
Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. ...
Matthew 6:25 ESV / 11 helpful votes
“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
Luke 10:30-37 ESV / 9 helpful votes
Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him, he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. ...
Revelation 21:4 ESV / 8 helpful votes
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
2 Timothy 3:16-17 ESV / 8 helpful votes
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
Romans 8:1-39 ESV / 8 helpful votes
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. ...
Psalm 22:1-31 ESV / 8 helpful votes
To the choirmaster: according to The Doe of the Dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night, but I find no rest. Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel. In you our fathers trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them. To you they cried and were rescued; in you they trusted and were not put to shame. ...
Matthew 4:7 ESV / 7 helpful votes
Jesus said to him, “Again it is written, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
Deuteronomy 18:1-22 ESV / 7 helpful votes
“The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offerings as their inheritance. They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time. ...
Genesis 2:15-20 ESV / 7 helpful votes
The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. ...
1 Corinthians 6:7 ESV / 6 helpful votes
To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded?
Romans 12:17 ESV / 6 helpful votes
Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.
Jeremiah 31:3 ESV / 6 helpful votes
The Lord appeared to him from far away. I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you.
Genesis 2:15-25 ESV / 6 helpful votes
The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Then the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.” Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. ...
Deuteronomy 4:24 ESV / 5 helpful votes
For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Genesis 2:1-25 ESV / 5 helpful votes
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation. These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, ...
Genesis 1:1-31 ESV / 5 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. ...
Romans 10:4 ESV / 3 helpful votes
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Psalm 110:1-7 ESV / 3 helpful votes
A Psalm of David. The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.” The Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter. Rule in the midst of your enemies! Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours. The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, “You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.” The Lord is at your right hand; he will shatter kings on the day of his wrath. ...
Jeremiah 1:5 ESV / 2 helpful votes
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
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Unless otherwise indicated, all content is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution License. All Scripture quotations, unless otherwise indicated, are taken from The Holy Bible, English Standard Version. Copyright ©2001 by Crossway Bibles, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Contact me: openbibleinfo (at) gmail.com.John the Baptist got his head cut off because he told one of the woman that she couldn't marry her uncle. Then the lady's daughter won the king's attention then he asked what do you want then the daughter asked her mom what she want and she said I want John the Baptist's head cut off, so thru did it. That is what I talking about. Are you saying that was wrong for him to do that? Why is that? You are saying that was wrong for him to do that. You need to get into more of the scriptures like that to understand me and get help too. Matthew 14
New International Version (NIV)
John the Baptist Beheaded
14 At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus, 2 and he said to his attendants, “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
3 Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, 4 for John had been saying to him: “It is not lawful for you to have her.” 5 Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered John a prophet.
6 On Herod’s birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for the guests and pleased Herod so much 7 that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10 and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12 John’s disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.
Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand
13 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
15 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”
16 Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.”
17 “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered.
18 “Bring them here to me,” he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
Jesus Walks on the Water
22 Immediately Jesus made the disciples get into the boat and go on ahead of him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowd. 23 After he had dismissed them, he went up on a mountainside by himself to pray. Later that night, he was there alone, 24 and the boat was already a considerable distance from land, buffeted by the waves because the wind was against it.
25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.
27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”
28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”
29 “Come,” he said.
Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”
31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”
32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. 33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
34 When they had crossed over, they landed at Gennesaret. 35 And when the men of that place recognized Jesus, they sent word to all the surrounding country. People brought all their sick to him 36 and begged him to let the sick just touch the edge of his cloak, and all who touched it were healed.You are just argumentive and judgmental Christians. Why lie to yourself? Why argue with other Christians? Why judge other Christians? You are no better.
There has to be something in the TOS that refers to taking up an entire page of a forum with material that isn't original.
I think this thread just serves to show the flaw in OPs expectation that a person should just be able to go on and on about Jesus and have everyone else shut up and listen silently.
We need a forum comparing the studied skepticism of Calvin and Hobbes to the primitivist evangelism of BC.
Sorry, little joke.Going on and on about Jesus is what this conversation is about. This forum has had so many comments about NOT talking about this subject, but not one objector has left the conversation. It is almost like you expect that I should be silent about what I believe, or else, prepare to be "mowed"?
We have a conversation about Jesus, and the one who shows up first, is most likely someone who disagrees. Is that NOT bully-like???
There has been no expectation to be silent if you disagree, but there are many issues at hand. I mean, someone brings up a different point every few posts. There should be a conversation where a consensus is reached. We cannot do that "zig-zagging" from this point to that in minutes.
We will disagree, but I honestly do not believe we know why.
God, no God. That's about the size of it, right?
- genaeaposted 13 years ago0
Got an A in critical thinking. And one occurrence where there was a question on an exam that I was the only class member to answer correctly, same class. Think I'm good there too.
English was always my BEST subject though. But I aint hung up on good or gooder English. I just speak truth about what I know.
My God gave me a pretty sound mind, and he uses it much better than I. I'm grateful.So, then, when it comes to religion, you are deliberately suspending your superb critical thinking ability in order to sustain your illogical, childish beliefs? Sounds like fearful, willful ignorance. How discouraging!
Quite the contrary. It is clearly obvious that "God" has taken away your mind, and made it into a nonthinking mass of neurons...fodder for the charlatans who brainwashed you. Stop trying to trick yourself. Listen to the cognitive dissonance. It is trying to release you from the slavery you are allowing long dead fools to impose upon you. Simple...So where exactly does your critical thinking take you in regards to the phenomenon of life? We still have no conceptual definition of what life/death is, yet it's obviously a pretty big part of the equation where questions of existence are concerned.
I am a critical thinker as well and have yet to find how anyone who claims to be a critical thinker can reach the conclusion that belief in God is illogical or childish. Yet there are some who often speak from a raised pulpit of intellectual authority, openly and brazenly criticizing others and their beliefs as "fearful" or "willful ignorance", as if they have somehow figured out something I haven't.
There are plenty of elements in life that are difficult to grasp logically, and when attempting to speak of something undoubtedly there yet not fully resolved logically, one can sound confused. But don't let this fool you. It's clearly not as simple as you think. You might ask yourself who's really tricking themselves here.What are you having trouble understanding? Maybe I can help as I seem to have figured out something that you have not been able to.
Okay, thank you Mark. Let's start with life. Give me your thoughts. It can be an exercise in critical thinking. Give me your logically resolved explanation of the phenomenon of life/death.
Sorry - what don't you understand about this occurrence? What needs explaining exactly?
What animates animate matter? What makes it behave the way it does? What's the conceptual difference between life and death?
Seems to be electricity - far as we can tell.
Animate matter behave in all sorts of ways, but it appears to be driven mostly by the need to reproduce.
Conceptually, life is being alive, dead is not being alive.Okay. I have a few thoughts....
"Animate matter behave in all sorts of ways, but it appears to be driven mostly by the need to reproduce."
According to biological definition, all life behaves in very specific ways; homeostasis, organization, metabolism, growth, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction. If an organism exhibits these behaviors then it's biologically defined as alive. So, what causes this behavior? Driven by what?
"Seems to be electricity - far as we can tell."
Okay, a bit simplistic, but I get what you're saying. But unlike anything else life has a natural tendency towards growth/anabolism, or in other words, increasing rather than reducing. Electricity doesn't do this. Like everything else not living, it reduces. So, if electricity is the answer, how/why does it behave so differently in living organisms?
"Conceptually, life is being alive, dead is not being alive."
Think about it this way. You and I and everyone/thing else alive right now represent the last link in an unbroken chain of living organisms that goes all the way back to the primordial pool. Life can't be given in any other way than for a living thing to create another living thing, continuing the chain. Once it's gone you can't get it back. So, what is it?Driven by the need to reproduce. Whatever these things do - they allow life to continue through reproduction.
Electricity is not alive - according to your definition of life. Why would you expect it to behave as though it was alive? Are the minerals in your bones alive? No.
What is what? Your assumption that the only way for life to be given seems to be wrong. We are here - therefore it is wrong."Driven by the need to reproduce. Whatever these things do - they allow life to continue through reproduction."
Driven by what? Can it not be reduced beyond this point? Are we saying that this 'drive' or 'need to reproduce' is a natural law, like gravity? It just is?
"Electricity is not alive - according to your definition of life. Why would you expect it to behave as though it was alive? Are the minerals in your bones alive? No."
I'm questioning your answer. You said "seems to be electricity" as a response to my question "What animates animate matter?". So, I pointed out a fundamental difference between electricity and life. Please explain your answer because it's not logical.
"What is what? Your assumption that the only way for life to be given seems to be wrong. We are here - therefore it is wrong."
You and I are here because the actions of our parents gave us life. Living beings who were themselves the end of the chain added a link to the chain. You and I. Do you know some other way to give life?Yes - it appears to be the product of life.
Sorry - what don't you understand exactly? There are multiple things that animate animate matter - none of which are alive. Is sunlight alive? No - but it animates plant matter. Electricity is the same. Why assume what animates life must itself be alive? That is illogical.
There was a time when there was no life here. Therefore life began without being given life by a living being.
Life is real, whether I can explain the cause for it or not. Gods are from the imaginations of other carbon based life forms, like myself. Critically thinking...I have no reason to believe them, as the premise is absurd. What is your reason?
Some would say a premise that suggests intelligent/reasoning/conscious/self-aware minds evolving out of mechanical/causal/random chance is absurd. You're right, life is real. Just as the human mind is real. Both are just as undetectable as God, yet they're real. The only reason we know the mind exists is because we each experience it. The only reason we know life exists is because we can observe the difference between something that is alive and something that is dead. Yet they're undetectable in any observable/quantifiable way.
We can only see what they 'cause'. We can't see the idea, only when the idea is physically put into action. We can't see what animates life, only the animation. If something like the mind undoubtedly exists, that is self-aware, creative, intelligent, capable of reason, imagination, etc, yet is totally undetectable, then my critical thinking leads me to believe its highly unlikely that it's the only thing in all of existence just as capable, just as dynamic, yet just as undetectable.To me, it clearly depicts, "made in his image". But, of course, nowhere near as sophisticated. The bible says that eyes have not seen and ears have not heard, neither has it entered into the heart of man... We can't even imagine, not only what he has prepared, but how great he is.
The mind is completely detectable. MRI, CT scans have detected thought and brain function. At a matter of fact doctors have recently found away of communicating with patients that have been comatose for years using MRI's. The mind, detectable, the higgs particle, detectable, God, not detectable. You would think a simple study of prayer would lead to the detestability of God because the bible says all prayers will be answered. Prayer can move mountains, but nothing.
Rad Man, MRI and CT scans have not detected thought. They can detect physical occurrences and researchers can recognize a link between those physical occurrences and particular thoughts, but those scans do not detect thoughts or the mind.
http://engineering.mit.edu/live/news/10 … s-measured
(“We’re limited in our ability to record individual human neurons,” says Charles Jennings, director of neurotechnology at the MIT McGovern Institute for Brain Research. He points, however, to one major exception. It is possible during neurosurgery, when the brain is exposed and the patient is awake, to measure the activities of individual nerve cells in the brain. Doctors can show the patient something—a picture or words—and measure the response to the stimulus.
This kind of experimentation has led to the discovery that single neurons may show extraordinarily precise patterns of activity. For instance, in one study a single neuron lit up in response to actress Halle Berry—regardless of whether the patient saw her name, her face as she walked the red carpet, or Berry in the role of Catwoman.
For the most part, however, scientists measure human brain activity en masse. They do it non-invasively using tools such as functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI). “These tools aren’t sensitive enough to record the activity of a single neuron” says Jennings. “It’s more like an airplane view of traffic. It’s hard to see an individual car, but it’s easy to see if it’s rush hour.” A functional MRI detects brain activity by measuring changes in blood flow and blood oxygen levels. As neurons fire, they use up oxygen in the blood. Consequently, the magnetic signature of the blood’s hemoglobin, which carries oxygen, also changes. The MRI picks up this change and uses it to reveal thought “hot-spots.”
Recently, researchers at MIT developed a new kind of MRI sensor that could reveal brain activity more directly. Developed by Alan Jasanoff, a professor of Biological Engineering and an associate member of the McGovern Institute, the sensor measures concentrations of dopamine, a brain chemical that carries messages between neurons and is involved in learning, movement, and other activities. Like a standard MRI, it picks up a magnetic change in a protein—only in this system, the magnetic signature changes when the protein binds to dopamine rather than oxygen.
This new sensor comes with some practical challenges: the magnetic protein it relies on is biologically engineered and must be directly injected into the brain to work, and it only detects dopamine in areas local to the injection. The team is looking into easier ways to get the protein into the brain, such as using chemotherapy delivery methods to get drugs past the blood-brain barrier, or genetically engineering brain cells so they can make the protein themselves.
Jasanoff’s lab is also developing sensors that detect other neurotransmitters besides dopamine. “By actually detecting a specific molecular component of what the brain is doing,” says Jasanoff, “we can say something much more specific about its activity and ultimately about its circuitry and mechanisms than we could if we used a conventional blood-related fMRI.” — Elizabeth Dougherty)
So please stop telling people that thoughts can not be detected or measured.I appreciate you sharing this as I had not heard about it and find it incredibly interesting, but it doesn't refute what I'm saying. I understand how an MRI works. Just as it says here, an MRI detects changes in blood flow and blood oxygen levels. This new one does the same thing, only it keys in on dopamine rather than oxygen, but it's the same thing. These are physical occurrences in the physical brain.
I totally agree that these physical occurrences play a vital role in the mind. The brain processes physical things like light and sound waves and particles in the air that allow us to see/hear/smell. But the conscious mind that you and I experience cannot be observed. If it could then lying would be impossible and cases involving intellectual property would be moot.
Think about it this way. Once you have all this data as far as blood flow and what neurons fire when and where and all of that, you still have to take the word of the subject to some degree. There's always a level of subjectivity. You can't observe the thoughts themselves, or the mind itself, to objectively conclude exactly what was occurring in the mind.They can observe the thoughts themselves. Didn't you read the part where during surgery a specific neuron can lit up when a specific thought happens (in this case Halle Berry—regardless of whether the patient saw her name, her face as she walked the red carpet, or Berry in the role of Catwoman.)
We’re limited in our ability to record individual human neurons,” says Charles Jennings, director of neurotechnology at the MIT McGovern Institute for Brain Research. He points, however, to one major exception. It is possible during neurosurgery, when the brain is exposed and the patient is awake, to measure the activities of individual nerve cells in the brain. Doctors can show the patient something—a picture or words—and measure the response to the stimulus.
This kind of experimentation has led to the discovery that single neurons may show extraordinarily precise patterns of activity. For instance, in one study a single neuron lit up in response to actress Halle Berry—regardless of whether the patient saw her name, her face as she walked the red carpet, or Berry in the role of Catwoman.I did see that. And what exactly does a specific lit up neuron in response to a particular stimulus tell you about what he was thinking when someone brought up Halle Berry? I can make a guess as to what he was thinking about, but you can't see or interpret what that thought was. Physically it's just a lit up neuron.
He was awake. Everytime Halle Berry came up a specific neurone lit up, which is proof that his thoughts were reflected in his brain. I know my brain lights up when I think of Halle Berry.
I get like that with Patrick Jane from "The Mentalist." Yum.
Yup, my wife feels the same way. I think it's because him and I look so much alike!
Heck! my brain lights up too. But can you tell me what I'm thinking? Or why? Or what makes me think what I do?
I can tell you, you refuse to think critically about the bible because of your indoctrination. The rest I'll leave to the neuroscientists and psychologists.
But I think critically about the bible. I just find that it is solid. Everytime I seek, I find.
Here's the thing, though. You don't. Not completely. Your critical thinking is limited due to your bias towards it. Once you look at the book not just critically but also objectively, you will find it to be quite ordinary. You will see the contradiction, the error, the injustice. You currently see the Bible as you are inclined to see it. That respect that you feel towards it; the leaning you have towards the God within its pages. What you believe the standard of morality to be, what you think perfection looks like, what you were taught was right (even if you didn't grow up strong in the church or if you weren't always a "good" girl.) The need for hope that this life isn't all there is. It all has to do with why it satisfies you. It's a bit circular, really.
But you have every right to believe it, however.This post looks very familiar. However, critical thinking is great. It is thinking critically that got me to the point where I am now. I have no bias toward it. I come to most of my conclusions via critical thinking. I know that God is real. I have seen it all my life. I have tested the pages of the bible. They stand firmly.
There is no error in the bible. I checked. It takes a spiritual mind. It is not a literal work most often. It has a lot of things that only people who follow Jesus underrstand. Such as, turning he other cheek. Jesus said do it. he showed us how. The world does not understand turn the other cheek. They think that it means that we are to be passive and a allow people to "take advantage". But it goes according to your faith. "Vengence in mine," says the Lord. We cannot repay our enemies. We can only treat them as we want to be treated. But, we err there too. God knew that we would. He gave us a standard to reach. A standard to strive for. We must agree with him. Or go our own way.
Haha. And aren't you glad it's impossible for anyone other than you to see your thoughts while Halle's got it all lit up like that?
But It's not impossible for others to detect that I'm thinking about Halle Berry and the nature of my thoughts would be a given.
True, which means they would have to use subjective reasoning. It could actually be that Halle Berry makes you think Halitosis, which reminds you of your aunt, which makes you think about how much she used to be on the phone all the time, which reminds you that you haven't paid your phone bill.
Not to worry, they've come a long way in the last 50 years. They can now detect and read thought in the brain, it won't be long before they will be able to project your thoughts onto a screen for all to see. And still no soul detected, all evidence points towards thought coming from the brain. To think otherwise is ridiculous.
I can assure you my thoughts do not go from Halle Berry to phone bills.To say they can detect and read thoughts is totally inaccurate. And don't get my position here confused, you will undoubtedly see physical activity in the brain associated with your thoughts. Thoughts are happening in the brain, and I'm not arguing that they don't. I'm saying you can't observe the mind. By all appearances it's nothing more than firing neurons and oxygenated blood flow. No Halle Berry to be found. What I'm saying is that everything that you are cannot be reduced to a purely mechanistic function, just as life can't be reduced to purely biological functions. The brain enables us to interact with the physical world and is highly involved in all you think and do. But there's more to you than a bundle of neurons. The same life that animates all living things animates you as well, and cannot be detected as it is not physical.
Well the guy in that was being studied did have a Halle Berry Neurone. Please provide proof that thought comes from somewhere other than the brian. I've supplied proof it does. It's your turn. I'd like you to back up your thoughts on thoughts.
From my previous post ....
"Thoughts are happening in the brain, and I'm not arguing that they don't."From my previous post ...
"What I'm saying is that everything that you are cannot be reduced to a purely mechanistic function, just as life can't be reduced to purely biological functions. The brain enables us to interact with the physical world and is highly involved in all you think and do. But there's more to you than a bundle of neurons. The same life that animates all living things animates you as well, and cannot be detected as it is not physical."But you just agreed at thought comes from the brain? If thought comes from the brian then why say "But there's more to you than a bundle of neurones". Again, what proof do you have that there is something more?
There's you. Thoughts occur to you. There is you and then there are your thoughts. The mind is intangible. What proof could there be? You know the mind just as well as anyone else because you experience it just like everyone else. The physical brain constructs the conscious experience. Sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, memory, emotion, thoughts, imagination, motor function, etc. Neurons firing all over the place like that little light that comes on when your hard drive is being accessed. Physical activity to process and store physical sensory information.
But then there's also 'you'. The 'you' that navigates through life and forms a personality/ego through interaction with society. The 'you' that willfully wants beyond instinctual need or survival instinct. The 'you' that aspires to be something, or feels passionately about something. What proof do you need beyond your own self?My thoughts are me and are a product of my brain. We just went through this. When my brain shuts down so do my thoughts.
Yes, if your brain shuts down consciousness shuts down. Right. And 'you' physically interact with reality through your brain. Without it you can't. But if you think you can reduce everything that is 'you' down to mechanical and biological processes then you're fooling yourself. How does a mechanism feel inspired or passionately invested in something? You're selling human nature short by trying to make it purely materialistic.
I am an artist, and like many artists before me, I have learned how my conscious 'thinking' mind gets in the way of creativity. Creativity comes from somewhere deeper than conscious thought. It bubbles up in the same way that primal instincts do, yet it does not serve the same purpose as those inherent bodily instincts. It aspires to make something. Partly it's muscle memory, but not entirely. And it's more than simply 'being in the moment', though that's a key part. What comes out is beyond explanation. It's as if you're watching yourself create something, but not consciously participating. Once you try to consciously participate you lose it. This has nothing to do with naturally evolved instincts and it has nothing to do with naturally evolved social characteristics. Those are the competing factors that hinder creativity.
The conscious mind came from that same well that caused biological organisms to evolve the way they have. The conscious mind is the product of physical evolution propelled by the phenomenon of life, whatever it is. It's an element not yet understood fully. To reduce all that you are as a human being down to just the physical material is to ignore a major component to what makes the mind what it is. That makes us who we are. There's a spiritual aspect of life that can be perceived and appreciated without having to swallow everything else that completely disagrees with 'you'. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.I'm an artist as well, and your selling yourself short. When you shut off your conscious mind and get in the zone, your unconscious mind is at work. Nothing else. The unconscious mind is very creative and problems are often solved during sleep or rest when the unconscious mind has a chance to let you know it has the answer.
So then you know what I'm talking about. Just look at how you describe the unconscious mind. Does this sound like the behavior of a biological machine? Who's really selling themselves short here? And what survival purpose does this serve? How exactly does this capability come about in the cold evolutionary struggle for survival? The evolutionary process itself solving problem after problem through physical adaptation and ultimately culminating in the evolution of a mind that's a manifestation of that same problem solving capability. An intelligent mind. How does that even make sense from a materialist standpoint?
The human mind makes perfect sense. Our creativity is why we have populated the entire planet and neanderthals have not. That's how evolution works. We were along side neanderthals, but there lack of creativity was there downfall.
It is odd - these religious zealots accept all sorts of nonsense, but cannot be bothered to educate themselves as to how we evolved. The really funny thing is - they think we have stopped evolving and this is it. Talk about arrogant.
Exactly. This one change caused a change in humans unparalleled anywhere else in nature. And just as you pointed out, it didn't exist in Neanderthal, who evolved from the same common ancestor we did, just earlier. Do you really think an evolutionary development this significant could arise out of nothing more than randomness in that short of an amount of time?
When human evolution bottle-necked down to less than 10,000 mating pairs around 70,000 BC in Africa, the survivors of that bottleneck came back from the brink of extinction and went on to populate the entire planet in roughly 60,000 years. This means that, according to your view, that 'random' change came at a point that made the difference between us being here and not being here. The odds of that particular 'random' change occurring the way it did, when it did, giving us the capabilities that it did, are incalculable. To deny the obvious intelligence in the evolutionary process on display here, which consequently manifested in human intelligence, borders on delusion.It only boarders on your own delusions. We are here. We were not hear when the dinosaurs were. If the dinosaurs were not killed out we would not be here. Evolution and circumstances. Poof. Don't blink and enjoy, we are here for a good time not a long time, so have a good time the sun can't shine every day.
Maybe 'denial' is a better word. To ignore the obvious intelligence on display in the evolutionary process is to ignore an important attribute of life. Ignoring it gets in the way of understanding it. Evolution and the propulsive nature of 'life' is what made the intelligent mind. In this way I see your strict materialism mindset as a hindrance to understanding. A mindset that is, in my view, a kind of defense mechanism against any idea that could even suggest the existence of a God, which usually stems more from a reaction against religion than being based in logic.
Or, from an evolutionary standpoint a mind that does not get taken by the lies of a snake healer.
See, that's exactly what I mean. I merely suggest that there's something more to 'life' than we currently understand, based on factual information and logical deduction, and all of the sudden we're in 'snake healer' territory. Why must it be all or nothing? There was a time when humanity had a very peripheral understanding of gravity. Drop something and it falls/something's alive something's dead. Why can't we just acknowledge the distinct possibility that life/death itself, being a key component to existence, is a natural law/energy/force yet to be fully comprehended. To refuse to even open that door because of the associations you make to religion and spiritualism is no different than a believer refusing to delve deeper into something because they just assume God did it. It's still ideals blocking the way to better potential understanding.
“Nature, like mind, always does whatever it does for the sake of something, which something is its end” -AristotleWhy? Because you have not provided factual information or logical deduction. Every step of the way I've shown you that there is nothing besides the mind and you keep insisting there is something else, but you have no evidence of something else therefore you have no factual information and no logical deduction.
But it says stuff in the bible - that is "factual information."
He does - of course - need to change what the words say to mean something completely different than what they actually say, but - what the hey! - that is science for ya...............No, you haven't 'shown' me anything. You've just remained insistent that there isn't anything more. You'll even acknowledge that the unconscious mind works creatively to solve problems and reveal answers to you 'when it's ready', yet will still stick to your guns that it's just a biological mechanism.
And for you to say I haven't provided factual information is borderline infuriating. Remember the whole thing about the homo sapien bottleneck, the populating of the planet in 60k years, and the comparison to our neanderthal cousins illustrating how small of a timeframe we're talking about? That's all factual information. And remember the whole thing about the functions inherent to the presence of life, Homeostasis, Organization, Metabolism, Growth, Adaptation, Response to Stimuli, Reproduction, the functions that signify the difference between living and dead organic matter? The highly effective, highly efficient, highly organized functions that cannot be scientifically reduced any further? Also factual information.
You putting your hands over your ears and shaking your head back and forth is not showing me anything. You're not always going to get observable evidence. All the evidence we can see points to there being something more that still lies beyond current observation. Just as most of the light spectrum was beyond observation for most of human existence. Didn't mean it wasn't there.Please tell me how things like Metabolism and neanderthals show or are evidence of a soul? Once again when the brain is turned of so is thought. Therefore thought is a function of the brain. You simply can't get past that.
I do like the light spectrum example. Of course humans can't see the entire spectrum of light, but It's always been there. Once humans looked for it they found it. We have been looking for evidence of a God for thousands of years, but have found nothing.
I would love to find such evidence for an afterlife, but until it's found I choose reality.Well there's part of the problem. I'm not making the case for there being a soul. I'm simply pointing out the strong possibility that there's more to 'life' itself than we currently understand. Understanding 'life' to the same depths that we understand other physical laws, like gravity, could inform us greatly in how/why physical living organisms evolved the way they have. Or it could offer greater understanding of the mind, which ultimately came from the driving force of 'life' as well. But we'll never get there if people refuse to even acknowledge that it's there.
Think about how other organisms in nature work together. Like birds. How can we be so certain there's not more to the mind than the physical brain? How can we be so certain there's not more to the subconscious mind than just neurons and oxygenated blood flow?
This doesn't have to mean it's a soul or that we're talking about God. I'm just trying to get you and others to simply acknowledge the possibility of there being more to it that is beyond our current scope of what's 'observable'.The problem is your not really trying to learn and understand. You've come to a conclusion that you have no evidence for and you're trying to get others to believe you. I've seen someone die. They breath and then they don't.
You're so busy trying to reject my whole worldview that you won't even accept the smallest of points I'm trying to make. Like I said before, why does it have to be all or nothing? Why must you assume that I'm only capable of seeing things through my foregone conclusion and that I'm not really trying to learn and understand? Of course I'm trying to learn and understand. Your view has logical errors from my perspective, and that logic doesn't even include my faith. It's simply observation of known facts and evidence.
Think about it this way. Everything alive right now represents the last link in an unbroken chain of descendants of other living things that goes all the way back to the primordial pool where life first began. In that way we're all connected. There are behaviors in life that should make it obvious that there's an intelligence at work in adaptation. The intelligence we ended up with is not the result of random chance. It is possible to acknowledge that so that we can maybe understand it better without having to acknowledge God or souls.The intelligence we ended up with is not the result of random chance. Why sure it is. Do you say the same for the wolf or the pig or the dolphin? How about the learning disabled? The wolf thinks like it does because that is what made it successful. If the wolf felt sorrow for it's prey it would starve. Take the chimp and the bonobo. They look alike, but act and think very differently. Why? Well their environments look identical now but the bonobo's haven't had to compete for food with gorillas for a few million years so they ended happy and just always in the mood. Evolution did that. Why do boys tend to fear bad things coming from the closet while girls fear what's under their bed? Evolution did that as well. Those fears are part of us because they made us successful and continue to do so today.
Yes, I agree with all of that, except the 'random' part. Random chance is an assumption due to our limited understanding of the phenomenon of life itself. Random mutation is just the best explanation we can currently imagine.
Here, read this ... http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … leton.html. That is a perfect example of how adaptation isn't random. The physical changes that happen in animals within a handful of generations due to nothing more than being shown human affection, and the fact that it's repeatable, should clue you in to the un-randomness of adaptation.I am a girl. I was afraid mostly of things in the closet. I could look under my bed and ensure myself of safety. But the closet was across the room. Sends a chill as I type about it today
what accounts for that??? I mean, I know that I was born female. Had two babies is your theory cracking??? Hell no! You have a back-up to ensure your ideas persist. If that aint SOUL, I don't know what else to call it.Sorry I should have said statistically speaking more girls are afraid of something coming from below and boys are more afraid of the closet. Those are just the statistics, not to say it can't be the other way around.
Statistics is a perfect example of the inability to delve into the human psyche. Where are our100% stats? What accounts for the difference? Genetics? But only one generation back, I gave you "evidence" that genetics can only do so much.
Yes! But statistics uses very complicated formulas to come up with their info. Do you know that they actually have a way to account for "error" WITHIN the calculations??? Why do you think that is??? Not even statistics can paint a complete picture. They don't know if people answer the questions the way they do because they are hungry, or cold, or in a hurry. They TRY to account for that. But who knows how successfully? That is what the "error" calculation is for. The "black box"/ mind is only superficially understood, especially with statistics. The balance of your "faith".
But I think that you are the stubborn one. Evidence is becoming relative as well. Look at this: what is evidence to me is nothing more than bologna to you. And vice versa. This too points to something more than neurons and blood flow. We all have neurons and bloodflow. My neurons don't "pop" like yours my blood flows differently. How can that be?
Aaaawwww come on!!!
you are not going to make this even A LITTLE difficult??? I already told you that I and my mom are totally different. I and my dad are similar in thought, but we always came to different conclusions. And they put together stuff to form my neurons. But spirit they cannot give me.Do you really think personality doesn't have a genetic component to it? It makes sense from a genetic standpoint to pass on personality to children. Have you read Headly's link yet? It's fascinating, it talks about how they selected wild foxes with calmer personalities and over a few generation by breeding only the calmer foxes ended up with pets. They also breed the more aggressive foxes and ended up with overly aggressive foxes.
So, what happens if we breed people in the same manner. Take two of the most calm people you know and they will produce calm kids. Genetics plays a role on personality.
One of those neanderthals came up with fire! Not all of them.
Somebody's mind was thinking along different lines. Hmmm... How could that be??? They ALL have a brain.
How many times do you need to hear? Although everyone has a heart, lungs, mind, brain; each one is unique. What makes you take in info as you do? Nobody but nobody can think your thoughts, no matter how hard they try.
There is something that distinguishes each mind. Nature vs. nurture is a small piece of the picture. Though you and ATM agree on some things, you probably DISagree on most others. Why is that? Why is it that we both have brains, a heart, love for fellow-man, legs, arms, lips, and feet, but they don't all behave the same way at all times? How is it that we come up with such different outlooks?Genetics. Skin colour and intelligence and mental stability is the result of Genetics. Headly posted a very interesting link about foxes a few posts back that I just finished reading. You really should read it.
I am not speaking of intelligence or mental stability. I am speaking solely of that "thing" that distinguishes you from me. It is much more than you have a "weenie" and I don't.
We think differently. I think MUCH differently than my own mother. And though my mentality is a lot like my father's it is totally different in essence (he fixed his insomnia with Unisom, I choose to just stay up until I can't no more. my grandma just slept when the moment hit her. We had much fun laughing at her "naps" on the organ, and midnight trips to the grocery store. we have differences because we are different. With all the many people who LOOK like me; there is ONLY one me. Where you may be confused one to another. My people know me from anyone else. There is something that distinguishes me from all of the people with my features and vocal pattern, WAY of speaking, moving, looking. The families of even identical twins can tell one from the other in this way. This difference lies solely in Spirit in my opinion.
It is my spirit that keeps it ALL going. My brain cannot work without it. Electricity is the vehicle, not the source. It does not know how to work on its own. Spirit is responsible, not majick. Tell em ATMWell that depends on what your definition of spirit is doesn't it? If you're saying the spirit that drives you to win a contract, that get up and go, that gusto, then yes perhaps you're correct. If you talking about a soul when you talk of your spirit then you are incorrect.
You are funny, I'll give you that.Sorry, perhaps it's part of your genetics that gave you the kind of personality that accepts blind faith. They call it blind faith because it cannot be seen, but you have to told to believe it anyway. Do you end up buying stuff from infomercials and the shopping channel?
That's true, but you have to know one to find one. I know a few people who are always buying stuff from infomercials and they always seem to be of the religious type.
No it's not. I see it all the time in these forums. Someone comes along and makes a claim that her brother was healed from a severed spine by a strangers prayer and none of the religious folk question the claim. They all take it as fact. They have been trained to be gullible. Claire was around showing doctored photos of dead giants. There is no evidence of dead giants. Some randomly tall people with genetic defects and the NBA, but no giants race that can breed with people. Sounds painful to me.
I didn't question the severed spine thing because things like that happen in my world often. It did not sound implausible at all. Even if she was lying through her teeth, I know her claim to be possible. My grandmother "healed" my father of polio when he was a kid with spit.
he went from leg brace to no leg brace. Polio to no polio. Go figure...I suppose I'll just have to take your word for it then. Polio cured with spit.
It does not matter what you do with that info. I reported it like I heard and believe it happened. Your belief or disbelief has no bearing on the phenomenon. I saw pictures of my 5 yr old daddy with a leg brace and asked what happened to his leg. The house seemed to light up as the day was relived. All the grown-ups were there when it happened.
Obviously, your grandmother fed you an old wives tale and you swallowed hook, line and sinker. What's hilarious is that as an adult, you still believe it. Notice that holding such beliefs is totally irrational in light of reality.
Admitting you're a 100% right. Your statement is reasonable. It is logical.
A society, the people, mankind is devided :mamy agreeing with you and also a good number agree with the one you are choosing to put downh , bringing him unto jurisdiction of your level of understanding, not even knowing, that these things are still going on, regardless what anybody says.
Actually the supernatural manifestation doesn't ask for to be explained, accepted or rejected, it's here and no one will ever change it, stop it or prevent to have faith in what already manifests.
These pages and discussions are good and helpfull. Keep on commenting, everyone . Why not?
Being tolerant gives a chance to you to learn something new and practical.You obviously must know where it is if you're so adamant it exists. So, show us the supernatural?
Thanks for acknowledgment " you obviously must know"... - yes I do, so many, many more... No doubt, it is real, exists.
Just a bit of discernment gives considered people to know and to see manifestation of the spiritual forces " good" and "evil."
Now, who are you "all of us?" -- want me to show you...
My life isn't a " show- man" ; to take orders : demand and supply .
As already indicated, while discerning at the right time and the right place the supernatural is manifested being seen and noticed, ( Admitted or denied)
By denying it- closing yes - by choosing to denied, is depriving himself to see and to acknowledge.
Works many different ways; " evil" in opposing "good" creates quite a spectacular " show" (me) while the
" evil" resist to obey to leave the residence in the person , either as the sickness or any other harmful devastating activities of the people possessed ...
You might be able to do a favour to yourself - if choosing so,- by stopping to haras those who do have FAITH in supernatural , using the invested POWER of the Most High Name in conquering the EVIL.
Supernatural , are two distinctive spiritual forces one of them is in controll of every real,living person.
Well, I was fed the story of why my daddy no longer wore a leg brace. It was not only Grandma that told the story. There was a mob. She, my granddad, two of my gma's brothers and my dad all collectively told the story. They were GOOD at "manipulating" little minds (I guess
)And, you bought it. Do you still believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy, too?
No. But God, his son Jesus, and the holy spirit which keeps me, YES, a thousand times YES
It does not bother me that you have no God. It is really ok with me. Oh! And you not believing me about my dad, fine. You just have a different set of rules. I can deal with that.
Pardon me for sounding ignorant, but...What is a soul or spirit? Thanks
Sorry, but there is vast amounts of evidence to support the fact that life is all based purely on biological and chemical functions and none to even remotely suggest there is more to it, that is, unless you alone possess such knowledge? Of course, we already know you don't.
There's plenty to suggest there's more to it. And it's common knowledge. The most basic forms of life maintain homeostasis, organization, growth, metabolism, adaptation, response to stimuli, and reproduction. If an organism exhibits these functions then they are biologically defined as alive. And that's where it stops. We cannot reduce life beyond this point scientifically. Biologically these are seen as just natural traits of something that is alive. The phenomenon of life itself has characteristics we're still trying to figure out through research and investigation. A good example would be the effect human affection has on wild dogs. Within two generations pups are born smaller, with much lower testosterone levels, and patches of white fur. By doing nothing other than nurturing wild dogs you can physically change their disposition and physical appearance.
We understand inanimate matter and the laws of physics to such an extent that we can reconstruct a chain of causation all the way back to the beginning of the universe. We don't have the same level of understanding of the phenomenon of life. We can see 'how' life evolved by looking at the fossil record, but we can only guess as to 'how'. If we understood the phenomenon of life the way we understand gravity then we could do that. We can't. At least not yet. And it's not for a lack of looking.No, your examples are not suggestive of anything more to it at all and your conclusion that they are is merely one of wishful thinking and ignorance.
LOL. And, that is your evidence of something more, the fact that men can breed dogs? That's just wishful thinking based on ignorance.
Yes, wishful thinking based on ignorance. You really, really, really want to believe in something more by selectively choosing things you don't understand and concluding there must be something more. It is laughable.These are not mere examples. These biological functions are the definitive difference between an organism that is alive and an organism that is dead. When life is present, this is how biological material behaves. These functions are organized, efficient, and serve a specific purpose. These functions are the physical manifestation of the non-physical phenomenon of 'life'.
I'm referring to experiments done on the domestication of wild animals. Like wolves to dogs. It's also been done with wild foxes. If you take two test sets of wild wolves, or foxes, raise and tend to each in the exact same way, only showing affection to one set while showing no affection and human contact to the other, within just a few generations pups that were given human contact and affection are born smaller and with physical differences that make them 'cute' to a child; floppy ears, white fur, etc. The other set remains unchanged.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print … tliff-text
I'm pointing out things that make it blatantly obvious there is something more. 'Something more' doesn't automatically have to equal 'God'. All I'm trying to point out is that there are obvious qualities about the phenomenon/energy/state of 'life', manifested in observable behaviors and adaptations, that clearly show that 'life' is a law of nature in itself. Like gravity. It can't be detected in and of itself, only through the effect that it has on biological matter when it's present.Ok, this post eerily contains the words "You wrote" then quotes that I did not write. What's happening???
Sorry about that. That is kind of confusing. I was continuing a discussion with ATM. I went back and changed the post from 'me/you' to the actual names.
The fact that you want to invoke something more, like your beliefs in magical fairies is merely wishful thinking.
That's nice. So what?
You are doing no such thing, you're 'something more' is merely wishful thinking as there is nothing blatantly obvious at all.And here we go again. Rad Man, if you see this, this is what I'm talking about. Every point I try to make gets dismissed based on my faith, whether or not it's even relevant to the discussion.
You, ATM, and many others, have adopted this strict materialism defense mechanism as a way to avoid discussing anything that might open the door to the possibility of there being 'something more'. The problem is that it also restricts the possibility of a better understanding of things outside of our current grasp. Things that get too quickly dismissed based more on the fact that you equate 'something more' to religion/God rather than dismissal based in logic.
My 'something more' is an unbiased acknowledgement of the obvious. Your rejection of the obvious is the reverse of the 'Goddunit' thing you guys are always griping about. It's still ideals getting in the way of progress.Perhaps if you didn't spend so much time trying to convince people that the "something more," is out of the bible and involves multiple new impossible species that you know existed even though there is no evidence of them? How old was Adam again?
IDK - might help.That's a totally different discussion, but it does relate. In that case it's still your personal bias based on your views of religion that cause you to reject what I'm trying to point out Genesis wise without any consideration. There's overwhelming evidence in favor of what I'm attempting to show you, but you won't have it. To you I must just be delusional, so there's no reason to look into it any further.
But that's not what we're talking about here.There is not overwhelming evidence in favor of anything. If there was - you would have something to show us, but you don't. Your conclusions are faulty and based on religious beliefs. I have considered your claims - they are nonsense with no basis in fact. None.
I have shown you over and over again and you reject it based on your pre-conceived opinions of me and my faith. Doesn't mean the evidence isn't there. Just means you think you've got it all figured out already and that in your mind no believer is going to have anything relevant to add.
You haven't shown me anything. You have repeated "there must be something else," over and over and over again.
I've shown you plenty. You have just rejected it without due consideration because you have no respect for me or my faith, and you make assumptions about my faith and its effect on my ability to reason. That is all.
No - you haven't shown me anything at all. I would appreciate it if you stopped accusing me of things I haven't done also. Thanks. I rejected your conclusions based on the fact that they were not accompanied by any evidence at all.
As for your ability to reason - well - a few posts ago you were telling us that the bible has been misinterpreted and the majikal creation of long lived Adam was just a different version of the majikal creation of "normal" humans who evolved. Hard not to question your capacity for reason after reading that stuff - no offense.Right, because your mind is already made up. You already know better and no God-believing moron is ever going to have anything relevant to say. The evidence is abundant. The fact that you don't see the evidence, or deny that I've provided any at all, tells me all I need to know. My accusations are valid.
And I have the entirety of human history to confirm that Genesis has been misinterpreted, because if you simply adjust that one misinterpretation it all of the sudden lines up across the board with so many known facts simultaneously that it's beyond mere coincidence. Again, the advances in technology really happened, the dawn of civilization really happened, and every ancient civilization from that region tells a very similar story about their ancient past. They all believed these immortal gods they spoke of were their real history. Including giving credit to those gods for the inventions and dawn of civilization we know actually happened.No - your accusations are not valid. You have not shown me anything, so I reject your conclusions based on that fact.
The secondary fact that your conclusions seem to be solely driven by a belief in a majik book subsequently throw doubt on your ability to reason.
I am open to evidence - you have not shown any. None.I understand, you can't see past your own skewed perception. You should be familiar with that concept. You argue with people all the time with a similar blind spot. I don't doubt you believe you. The thing is, my mind is truly open. I respect both faith and science, so my mind allows for possibilities that you (as well as many believers) won't even consider. I took a very methodical approach to my study of Genesis because my mind needed context to make sense out of the abstractness of what it was describing. I found proper context through our modern historical knowledge base. I found where it happened and it all ties together perfectly.
Please stop insulting my intelligence and accusing me of having a "skewed perception," simply because I reject your impossible claims and base my decisions on reality - not mythology.. You have no respect for science at all. You have already decided that you have the answers and they come out of a book called "the bible," (with a little re-writing that is)
Your conclusions are erroneous and solely faith-based. You have not provided any evidence at allWhat do you know of what's possible and what isn't? Do you see what I mean? You have it figured out already, what's possible and what is not, and nobody's going to tell you different. I have pointed out, time and time again, things that are undoubtedly part of reality that we don't have a complete understanding of. Until we do, nobody can speak of what's possible and what isn't. Not even you.
Your mindset is a roadblock to further understanding much the same way that a believer's mindset can often get in the way. Whenever you decide, for whatever reason, that you KNOW better, then there's no room for anything else. Since you've already defined what's 'possible', there's no room for anything else. That's all you, Mark.Nonsense. My mindset is what has gotten us this far. Believing in majikal super beings is what held us back for centuries.
Odd - you already know what is possible and have made it clear what you think is possible and happened - yet you fail time and time again to demonstrate it - instead attacking anyone who does not believe in your majikal claims. This is why your reliion causes so many conflicts.That's exactly what I just said. Assuming you KNOW better, whether you be a believer or nonbeliever, is the problem. I don't claim to know all that's possible. I'm just not so quick to deem something IMpossible.
I have not failed to demonstrate it. I just have to first get through the skewed perceptions that either reject the science-based bits on one side of the fence or the skewed perceptions that reject anything beyond materialism on the other side of the fence. It's a two-edged sword.Yeah - but you are quick to claim something as possible. And make claims that you know these things actually happened. This is what I reject. See how that is not me claiming to know everything?
You have not demonstrated anything at all. Sorry. Materialism? Oh - you mean reality? Yes - I am reality based. I have no reason to suppose that anything exists outside of reality.I don't make claims I can't back up. My wider allowance of what's possible is what allowed me to see it in the first place. Then I tested my hypothesis. Now I have evidence that supports my claim, and a lot of it.
You can't see that I've demonstrated it because you reject it right from the start. It's obvious in how you speak about Genesis. You don't know anything about it. You don't know who wrote it or how old it is. But you have an opinion of it, not based on the material itself, but on the religious ideals you associate with it. Which is understandable. However, because I use Genesis, which is again very old and originates in the same time/place as civilization, you reject it from the start based on your own personal biases that it can't have anything meaningful to say.It would be silly to suggest genesis has nothing meaningful to add, but to suggest it's factual and truthful is equally silly.
And why is that silly? Besides, I'm not just suggesting it, I'm providing evidence to back it up.
You have no evidence but the words themselves and to make that work you need to rewrite half of it. "Sure it says DAY but it doesn't mean a DAY in this particular instance."
When you get a chance please get back to that link and explain how that link makes your point. You have my complete attention on that one.
The biggest point in that example is that this particular adaptation is repeatable, therefore not random. It's also very un-random in the adaptations themselves. The changes in demeanor due to lower testosterone levels, and the changes in physical appearance, play on our natural mammalian instinct to nurture and care for them. Basically they become so damn cute with their floppy ears and their white fur, that you want to provide for them, instinctively. Like a baby. While this could maybe be explained in dogs considering their long history cohabiting with humans, it doesn't apply nearly as well to other species, like foxes.
What are you talking about. Did you read the entire link? In just a few generations of selectively breeding only the one's that are friendlier to people we get pet foxes. When they selectively breed the more aggressive one's they got wildly aggressive foxes. They were able to do this to two out of the three other species. I believe they had a problem breeding otters.
What the article showed was that with selective breeding you can change personality and appearance very quickly and the particular genes that control behaviour can be identified. It also showed that these genes have a play on humans as well and sometimes abnormalities in certain human genes produce people who are more then normally friendly, much like labs of the dog world.
You can't compare selective breeding with randomness of evolution because the mere fact that they are selecting who breeds negates the randomness.
It does show us that personality has a very strong genetic link.You're right that that is controlled in this experiment. When I originally heard about this in a PBS documentary called 'Dogs Decoded' I had gotten the impression that the controlled experiment was based solely on testing the affects of human interaction/contact, and not in selective breeding. But it's not the selection of the more docile of subjects that's the key here. It's the changes themselves. Namely the changes in physical appearance. Changes that give these animals a physical appearance that plays on our emotions. You've got interplay here between physical changes in the dogs/foxes that cause a physical reaction in humans. Their appearance triggers increased levels of oxytocin (a neurotransmitter with hormone-like effects) in the human brain, which is the same thing that happens when humans look at or touch babies. These are not random changes. There's a symbiotic relationship at play here. And while the selective breeding was done so for behavioral reasons, the unexpected result was the physical changes that went along with it.
Yes and the physical changes are the results of genetic manipulation as shown with humans with genetic differences as described in the article.
But not manipulation of physical appearance. The manipulation was behavioral. The unintended result was changes in physical appearance that has a mutual reaction in humans. These are the same changes in appearance that changed wild wolves to cute little fluffy dogs that humans then bred for physical appearance reasons. Unlike what was originally thought, those appearances first happened at the genetic level through interaction with humans. Those who lived in closer proximity bred with others who lived in close proximity. Physical changes of smaller builds, floppy ears, white fur, and bigger eyes are not randomly generated alterations and they were not the intended result of deliberate breeding to achieve those physical results.
Changes in behaviour are linked to genetics as explained in the article. The same thing happens to humans. I'm willing to bet my cockapoo has less testosterone then a wolf or pit bull.
Wayne says, "the number one email we got was from parents of children suffering from Williams-Beuren. They said, Actually our children remind us of dogs in terms of their ability to read behavior and their lack of social barriers in their behavior." The elfin traits also seemed to correspond to aspects of the domestication phenotype.
No - you don't have evidence. I reject your claims of majikal impossibilities being possible regardless of where you got them from. You have not backed anything up. Sorry - your wider allowance of accepting the impossible as being possible and real is all your have demonstrated.
I have not spoken of Genesis other than to note that you needed to re-write it.
Lets start with one of your claims - Adam. Show me the evidence you have.
Kinda weird none of these "immortals" are around today......Genesis explains why these 'immortals' aren't around anymore. That's who the flood was meant for. Them and their offspring with humans. Noah was the only exception. After the flood it illustrates a gradual decrease in lifespans as they continued to intermingle with mortal humans. Sumerian mythology also supports this (Sumerian King's List), with beings having extremely long lifespans before the flood, and a gradual decline in lifespans after.
Your lack of respect for the source material stemming from personal bias against religion was clearly stated when you said, "The secondary fact that your conclusions seem to be solely driven by a belief in a majik book...."
I will respond to your request for evidence involving Adam when time permits, as that will take a bit more than I can commit while at work. Though I'll just be repeating much of what I've provided before.Ah - interesting. The delusion deepens. Immortal means immune to death.
You're right, I'm sorry. I shouldn't use that term as it's confusing. The word used in Genesis, at least in the KJV, to describe humans who only live 120 years is 'mortal'. So I was using 'immortal' to draw the distinction, though that is not accurate. I'll adjust. Thank you for pointing it out.
Alright, here we go. Up front I'd like to say I hope you put at least half as much effort into dismissing this as I have into writing it. The hypothesis is that Adam existed in an age when the earth was already populated by homo sapiens (after 10,000BC). Based on Abraham's interaction with an Egyptian Pharaoh and the fact that Genesis says he was born 1950 years after Adam's creation, our timeline is roughly 5500BC or later. Our location is somewhere between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.
If we're looking for evidence of Adam's existence, then we have to first establish what we know about him according to Genesis ...
1. He lived for many centuries, and so did his off-spring.
2. He and his wife are said to have gained wisdom and knowledge of good and evil in the garden.
3. Through his sons, Cain and Abel, we can deduce they were familiar with farming and livestock practices.
4. Adam's son, Cain, killed his brother and was banished within the first 130 years of Adam's existence. At some point after that he built a city.
5. Two of Cain's descendants six generations along are said to be 'fathers' of those who "lived in tents and raised livestock"/"played stringed instruments"
6. A flood killed all of Adam's descendants except Noah and his family 1656 years after Adam was created.
7. The descendants of Noah built a city and a tower, then were dispersed, and their languages confused, roughly 100 years after the flood.
My hypothesis is primarily based on the beginning of Genesis 6 where my claim is that it makes a distinction between Adam and his descendants and the humans who already populated the region by stating they only live 120 years in comparison to Adam and his line who lived for centuries. It also says these two lines breeded, which is why it says the flood happened. It says the humans had become 'wicked'.
Okay, now, what's known about that region, Mesopotamia, during this general range of time?
Samarra Culture (5500-4800BC) - While farming first started further north in modern day Turkey (also between the rivers), and while large settlements had existed for many centuries prior in Europe and northern Mesopotamia, the Samarra culture was the first to use irrigation which allowed them to farm in the more arid regions further south where it was only sparsely populated before and allowed them to establish a "prosperous settled culture with a highly organized social structure". They're primarily known for their intricately detailed pottery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarra_cu … nt_Samarra
The Ubaid Culture (5300-4000BC) - There are 3 primary phases to the Ubaid culture, which inhabited southern Mesopotamia. Ubaid I (5300-4700BC), also sometimes called Eridu as this was the beginning of the first ever city-state of the same name, limited to far south Iraq where the arid conditions were extreme. This culture showed a "clear connection" to the Samarra culture to the north. They pioneered growing grains in these extreme conditions. During Ubaid II (4800-4500BC) they developed extensive canal networks from multiple major settlements. This period features the first ever centrally coordinated labor force. Ubaid 3/4 (4500-4000BC) phase saw very rapid urbanization that spread into northern Mesopotamia replacing the Halaf culture. There's also signs of the establishment of trade routes during this phase.
The Ubaid culture came to an "abrupt end" around 4000BC. Some attribute it to the 5.9 kiloyear event which created a devastatingly arid climate that forced the people of this region back to nomadic lifestyles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period#Timeline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.9_kiloyear_event
"Archaeologists have discovered evidence of an early occupation at Ur during the Ubaid period. These early levels were sealed off with a sterile deposit that was interpreted by excavators of the 1920s as evidence for the Great Flood of the book of Genesis and Epic of Gilgamesh."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur#Prehistory
"According to Gwendolyn Leick, Eridu was formed at the confluence of three separate ecosystems, supporting three distinct lifestyles, that came to an agreement about access to fresh water in a desert environment. The oldest agrarian settlement seems to have been based upon intensive subsistence irrigation agriculture derived from the Samarra culture to the north, characterised by the building of canals, and mud-brick buildings. The fisher-hunter cultures of the Arabian littoral were responsible for the extensive middens along the Arabian shoreline, and may have been the original Sumerians. They seem to have dwelt in reed huts. The third culture that contributed to the building of Eridu was the nomadic Semitic pastoralists of herds of sheep and goats living in tents in semi-desert areas. All three cultures seem implicated in the earliest levels of the city. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu#History)
The Uruk Culture (4000-3100BC) - The Uruk period is named after the city of Uruk first established towards the beginning of this period. The city of Uruk "played a leading role in the early urbanization of Sumer in the 4th millennium BC" and ultimately led to the establishment of the Sumerian civilization. By 2900BC Uruk had an estimated population of 50-80,000 living in a walled in region, making it the largest city in the world at that time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruk
Alright, I realize that's a lot already, so I'm going to try to keep this portion as short as possible and we can discuss further if you feel so inclined. Basically, the given timeline/region places pre-flood Genesis during the Samarra (Adam/Eve) and Ubaid (Cain) eras. 1656 years is said to have separated Adam's creation from the flood. These periods last roughly the same length of time, first to the north(west) where conditions were much more conducive to farming (where Genesis says Adam was going to have to 'work the ground'), then to the south(east) with obvious ties back to the north{west) where conditions were extremely arid, ala Cain's curse. The Ubaid culture to the south(east) was the first to build a city, just as Gen4 says Cain did, and they were the first to use an organized effort for agriculture that was coordinated by a central authority. This is what distinguishes Eridu (5300BC) as the first actual city-state from other large settled communities that came before that were all strictly egalitarian.
According to Sumerian mythology, Eridu was the first pre-flood city and it was established by one of many immortal, human in form, male/female gods, named Enki. According to the Sumerians, Enki was associated with water and taught the Sumerian people how to govern using kingship and how to farm, through what they called the 'gifts of civilization' that 'descended from heaven', each known as a 'me' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_%28mythology%29). In all there were 5 pre-flood Sumerian cities according to the Sumerians. The patron gods of each city lived in the temples built at the center and the Sumerians served as the labor force providing for the temple god. In the actual Sumerian cities of the Ubaid there actually were temples in the center from the very first city with extensive evidence that shows that the inhabitants of that temple were well provided for. According to the Sumerians, they believed they were created by these gods to provide for them.
When the flood was said to have happened, roughly 4000BC, lines up with the "abrupt end" of the Ubaid culture. There are varying theories as to what happened to bring about such an abrupt end. Most attribute it to a dramatic climate change. As noted above, though flood evidence is understandably sparse for this region considering it's modern day Iraq, there was a distinct 'silt deposit' found in the early Ubaid period of the site of Ur that literally cuts off the Ubaid period.
Both Genesis and the Sumerian King's List say that the city of Uruk, established towards the beginning of the Uruk period (about 3800BC) was established not long after the flood, and both attribute its establishment to a person of prominence that both describe as a 'mighty hunter'. Enmerkar in Sumerian mythology, NImrod in Genesis.
As mentioned before, many attribute the 'abrupt end' of the Ubaid culture to the 5.9 kiloyear event, which happened (as the name suggests) around 3900 BC. This is also what many experts point to as the catalyst that spawned multiple civilizations in this region because it was in the centuries that followed that civilizations were established in Sumer (3500BC), in Egypt to the west (3400BC), the Indus Valley to the east (3300BC), and Akkad in northern Mesopotamia sometime before 3000BC. Each showing rapid advancements in technology and craftsmanship, each with their own unique language, and each (with the exception of Akkad) establishing their own writing system.
The reason it's thought this was the catalyst is because it triggered massive migrations of the people who inhabited the region of the Sahara that became a desert during this climate event. including those from the southern Mesopotamia region, who were forced back into nomadic lifestyles. This, of course, lines up with when Genesis says the events of Babel happened. One additional Babel-related fun fact, Eridu is the site of the oldest known ziggurat, or tower. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu#Poss … r_of_Babel)
Another fun fact, Genesis says Abraham's father was from Ur, a Sumerian city.
There's a couple of recent theories that not only suggest the dawning of these civilizations are tied to the arrival of the 'Saharasians', made up of Semetic and Indo-European speaking nomads, but that civilization is the result of the emergence of the human ego. Based on dramatic behavioral changes in humanity during this era in this region, and more specifically how/where it happened, by all appearances it was these nomadic travelers that brought with them the behavioral traits that soon took over the settlements they flooded into. A couple of books on this topic that are fascinating reads whether or not you're buying anything I'm saying are ....
- The Fall: The Insanity of the Ego in Human HIstory and the Dawning of A New Era by Steve Taylor
- Saharasia: The 4000BCE Origins of Child Abuse, Sex-Repression, Warfare and Social Violence, In the Deserts of the Old World
Personally, I see these dramatic behavioral changes as the 'free will/knowledge of good and evil' gene that got planted like seeds into an already populated world by the dispersion of the descendants of Noah at Babel. The dawn of human selfishness, you could say. This is when humans began engaging in organized war, Eridu and early Sumer were the first sites of social stratification/class repression, and male dominance. It's also in this age and region that the Sumerians first invented/discovered cities, governments, laws, mathematics, astronomy/astrology, the wheel, stringed instruments, and writing, just to name a few.
The way in which the first few chapters of Genesis line up with the history of this region down to the number of centuries in between, combined with the dramatic changes to how humans lived and the significant change in human behavior and how it spread, this is what I put forth as the evidence of Adam's existence. This was the effect of Adam and his descendants living in this region. And they, according to this view, served as the inspiration behind the many mythological gods spoken about by these civilizations. Civilizations that all also share very similar flood stories, similar stories about a 'golden age' before humans became possessive and violent, and some (like the Sumerians) who also tell a story involving the confusing of a once universal language. And believe it or not, all of this barely even scratches the surface. This is the 'short' version.
Sorry this turned into a novella. I really did try to keep it short, believe it or not.Ummm - you have presented me with all of this before. I think what we have here is a fundamental communication issue. Lets look at the problem.
A "hypothesis" needs to be falsifiable to be called such. What you have presented is "your interpretation of the bible."
"Evidence," is something that demonstrates or proves something else.
What you have presented is "your opinion."
In your own words:
The most logical deduction here is that there was no flood.
In your own words again:
This is your opinion.
What you have presented evidence of is the existence of civilizations that rose and fell in the past. I don't dispute that. No one does.
Now - will you please stop saying you have presented me with "evidence," that I reject. Thanks.
I understand you believe this - despite the obvious flaws - i.e. a total lack of actual evidence and the need to re-write certain passages of the bible, but I do indeed reject this "hypothesis."
If you want to present me with some actual evidence of people living for centuries - bones collected for example? We have ample ways of determining the age of humans from their bones.
Some evidence of a flood would also be good. Noah's ark perhaps?
Until such times as you present some evidence I am forced to reject this "hypothesis," of yours. For a number of reasons:
1. You have absolutely no evidence at all.
2. It does not make sense given how we understand evolution. There does not seem to have been a cataclysmic change in humans other than we developed agriculture some when after we developed self awareness. Certainly when our ancestors emerged from the oceans was a far, far more cataclysmic change.
3.I will also present you with some actual facts that contradict your timeline and beliefs:
In my opinion - modern humans development made a substantial change when we developed art. This tells me we became self aware around this time. The earliest artwork in North America was around 11,000 BCE - some 6,0000 years previous to your "Adam," creation. In fact - art work has been found all over the world well before your proposed majikal event. Substantially so:
N.America - 11,0000 BCE
S. America - 8,000 BCE
Europe - 40,000 BCE
Africa - 25,000 BCE
As you can see - modern humans were developing a long time before your "Creation of Adam." There is no reasonable argument that a "Divine intervention," was needed to spur things along - we seem to have been developing quite well without any such intervention.
Sorry.First off, Mark, I'd like to thank you not just replying back with a single 'LAWL'. I was afraid that's all I was going to get after typing all of that out. Having said that ....
Hypothesis -
1. a proposition, or set of propositions, set forth as an explanation for the occurrence of some specified group of phenomena, either asserted merely as a provisional conjecture to guide investigation (working hypothesis) or accepted as highly probable in the light of established facts.
2. a proposition assumed as a premise in an argument.
3. the antecedent of a conditional proposition.
4. a mere assumption or guess.
Though you're referring to a specific definition of the word, what I have presented here is falsifiable because we're dealing with a very specific timeline and a very specific location, including the establishment of specifically named cities that archaeological evidence confirms were established as described. Beyond a verifiable series of specifically described events you also have a fundamental change in humanity traceable back to this time/place that matches characteristics specifically described in the garden of eden story.
There were numerous floods in that region, including the one I pointed out that can be linked directly to the abrupt end of the Ubaid culture in the region of Ur. Hopefully in the future Iraq will be more accessible and will allow more access for archaeological and geological purposes.
1. You have absolutely no evidence at all.
You're in denial, Mark
2. It does not make sense given how we understand evolution. There does not seem to have been a cataclysmic change in humans other than we developed agriculture some when after we developed self awareness. Certainly when our ancestors emerged from the oceans was a far, far more cataclysmic change.
There's obviously quite a bit of reading you need to get caught up on. There's a change linked back to this time/place that differentiates humans of 'civilized' cultures from those of indigenous cultures. Given the obvious and dramatic differences between the two, cataclysmic is a good word to use. Especially considering our tendency to war is linked back to this change as well.
As for your timeline, I don't deny human modernity started back a ways. I associate this to the bottleneck in our ancestry where we were at one time reduced to less than 10,000 mating pairs, roughly 70k years ago, probably due to the Toma volcanic eruption. It's not long after this that human began diversifying tools, making art, and this also came just before humans fully populated the planet within a span of roughly 60k years unlike any other species. But the more significant change that made us truly 'modern' happened around 5-4000 BC.I guess we still have a communication issue. Telling me I am in denial because I point out that you have not provided any evidence when you have not provided any evidence is not encouraging me to not offer up a few LAWLs. This is - of course - the reason your religious beliefs cause so many conflicts.
Please provide some evidence - not just your opinions. Any will do - you have simply stated that a change in the way humans lived is "evidence of majik," only you used 2,000 words to say it.
Thanks.You're clearly just dodging at this point, denying the blatantly obvious fact that our history supports what's described in incredible detail. Again, if there's any literal truth to Genesis we should be able to see it. I just showed you where you can find it. You can argue symantics all you like. I have obviously made my point. And your statements show a clear gap in your knowledge of human development that should be remedied if you're going to try to refute this any further. I mentioned a couple of books you should look into. I highly recommend them.
There is no literal truth to Genesis. Sorry. I asked you for evidence of teh Creation of Adam by a God - you have not provided any. I am not dodging any point - you have simply reiterated that (with a little re-writing) you believe Genesis to be true. Despite the fact that it is blatantly obvious that it is not.
Show me some actual evidence and I will listen. All you have given me is your opinions.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.Mark, I've given up on this argument. If people do not understand what the properties of evidence are, they confuse evidence (or facts) with opinion.
That's true. But in this case Mark is using this as an excuse, by claiming I'm confusing things. My post is on page 119 if you haven't read it. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
HeadlyvonNoggin, I think what you are doing is confusing supposition with evidence/fact. Let me explain that to you.
Evidence is finding proof that someone existed, i.e. his skeleton is found with his name engraved on dogtags or something. Finding a skeleton may be evidence that someone existed, but it is not evidence that a specific person existed.
By the same token, I think it was in the book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict' that the McDowell Calims that the existence of the Via Dolorosa is evidence that Jesus lived. That's rather like saying that evidence that Walmart is functioning is evidence that the president once worked there. It's fuzzy logic.
And that is what you are doing. You are saying that because these places exist or existed, it's evidence of particular people that lived at one time. No, it's not!
Supposition is not the same thing as evidence. Science uses extremely strict parameters to prove things.
1) If it's a law like thermodynamics, it must be able to be repeated and measured in real time. If it cannot be, then it's not considered a 'theory.' A theory is as close to a fact that one can get to in science. By the time something goes from a hypothesis to a theory, it's the equivalent of going from an opinion to a fact.
2) If it's history, no it cannot be reproduced. However, there would need to be solid evidence for it before it will be accepted. The bible is no more evidence of people having existed than the Vida (Hindu scriptures) is evidence that Shiva existed.I understand what you're saying here, and I don't claim to be a scientist or expert. But ....
"You are saying that because these places exist or existed, it's evidence of particular people that lived at one time. No, it's not!"
No, I am pointing to these things to confirm my timeline. It's the dramatic shift in humanity that lines up with what's described that's significant. Humans in this age/region transitioned from hunter-gatherer/horticultural lifestyles to full-blown civilizations in multiple regions, independently, each having their own unique languages, within a very short amount of time.Ok, only a couple of translations say, human beings. But plainly, this man is not like God, he hasn't immortality.
Scientists don't deny the shift. It doesn't in the least prove the bible or God. So I don't understand your point.
You are beating your head against a brick wall here. Humans became self aware - therefore it must have been majik.
What don't you understand?LOL! You just made me burst out laughing...
LOL! You just made me burst out laughing...
It is that same "self" that causes all the conflicts on the inside.
You're right, it doesn't prove the bible or God. What it does do is offer one simple answer that explains the most significant, and least understood, shifts in human history. Wouldn't it be tragic if the answers had been there all along in this ancient book of unknown origin and we simply didn't see it because it was misinterpreted ages ago and dismissed based on those misinterpretations? If I'm right then this view offers significant insight to who we are and where we come from.
Simple answer?
There is a far simpler answer - no majikal Super Being involved.
Sorry
You're fooling yourself, plain and simple.
Dear me. Show me some actual evidence in that case. Instead of pointing at (somewhat suspect history) and claiming this is because of majik - show me the evidence you promised.
No wonder your religion causes so many fights.The entirety of human history in Mesopotamia and the dawning of civilization is the evidence. It's the 'result' of the 'cause' described in Genesis. If Genesis were literally true, what we see is what you'd expect to see. Alternate explanations as to how things happened the way they did come nowhere this level of completeness as far as a single answer addressing the complexity of the history of that region and the human developments that spurred it on.
Odd you needed to rewrite it in that case.
Odd that the exact same human development carried on else where also.Actually, human development didn't carry on elsewhere. Like I said, I referred you to some suggested reading. If you'll notice, history clearly shows that civilization spread from this region out, not reaching those geographically cutoff regions, like Africa south of the Sahara, Australia, and North/South America until quite a bit later.
Didn't re-write. Just reread in the context of known history. Clears everything up.No - you rewrote it. Please stop lying at me - thanks.
The Indians developed agriculture around 9,000 BCE.Agriculture has nothing to do with it. Also, if you're referring to American Indians, it's more like 5000 BC. But agriculture isn't the change that signifies Adam. It's war/male dominance/social stratification/inventions/civilization.
Odd - the Chinese and Indians managed to do that without the majik.
All I can say is do some reading. I already gave you a couple of suggestions, but start where ever you like. I just suggest you do so before continuing this particular line of objections.
Headly:
I'm sorry to say that I would agree with Mark. It would appear to me (I've been watching the conversation, but genesea made me not want to participate after my initial run in with her earlier because the blatant disregard for information is complexing to me) that you have a pre-determined bias and you're examining history and archaeology with the intent of verifying your religious book - not examining all of the evidence objectively. You're well within your rights to do so.
Your interpretation of genesis (which, by the way 99.99999% of other CHRISTIANS would disagree with) is not terribly unlike Clair's claim that the Old Testament was "pagan nonsense" and that it should be disregarded entirely. You're stepping way, way out on a limb here, and not even your fellow believers will back you up. Granted,that doesn't mean that you're wrong, and they're right. I'm of the camp that you're ALL wrong, based on the evidence I've seen.
As groups of nomadic people started to interact, conflict was inevitable. It's part of human society. It had nothing to do with an "adam man" or an eve, or a garden, or a talking snake, or a tree that just HAPPENED to be in the middle of said garden that they weren't supposed to eat from. Civilizations, morality, interactions and society all evolve to the level of inter-tribal conflict, agriculture, male-domination, etc.
It seems like you're using a colossal-sized 'god of the gaps' argument. If you don't recognize any other alternative as possible, therefore god. God is a handy-dandy explanation for anything that you don't understand, and you've proven time and time again that you're more than willing to interject him/her/it into a neat little package that validates your own bias. You have not provided anything remotely CLOSE to evidence as defined scientifically. You've made your own assumptions, validated your own claims and repeatedly stated your own opinion, which you admit in your own words IS your opinion. Opinion does not count for evidence in any scientific field. Evidence can be tested, repeated, proven and relayed. The bible simply doesn't have that. There is nothing in what you've presented or what's written in the bible that you've interpreted far beyond the scope of the norm that suggests that it's based in any kind of reality. I think you're intelligent, and I don't believe that you're intentionally trying to be intellectually dishonest. maybe you genuinely don't see what you're doing, and that's fine - but intellectual dishonesty is the overall result.JMcFarland,
I appreciate your comment and I understand what you're saying. I've also had enough of these discussions to know the unlikelihood of anything I say convincing you that this is not what I'm doing. My faith has nothing to do with what I'm proposing here. I'm looking to understand, same as everyone else. My faith would remain even if there was no literal truth to Genesis based solely on my life experience.
You're definitely right that the majority of Christians disagree with me. I'm used to being on my little island between believers and non-believers. As I'm sure you've experienced in the past, many believers aren't willing to question what they've been told objectively. To them it feels like a lack of faith. Something I was at one time familiar with.
Something you said that I'd like to address specifically is this ...
"As groups of nomadic people started to interact, conflict was inevitable. It's part of human society. It had nothing to do with an "adam man" or an eve, or a garden, or a talking snake, or a tree that just HAPPENED to be in the middle of said garden that they weren't supposed to eat from. Civilizations, morality, interactions and society all evolve to the level of inter-tribal conflict, agriculture, male-domination, etc."
The progression you're referring to here is based on some broadly assumed developments that, while logical, are not backed by the archaeological record. Large settled communities existed after the discovery of agriculture for thousands of years in northern Mesopotamia and Europe, sometimes referred to as 'Old Europe', with populations in the thousands or more. These societies remained egalitarian, with no clear distinction between sexes or classes, and no one individual given anything more than any other. No differing grave sizes or valuable possessions buried with them, no defensible walls and no violence or weapons depicted in art....
"the prevailing view is still that male dominance, along with private property and slavery, were all by-products of the agrarian revolution...despite the evidence that, on the contrary, equality between the sexes - and among all people - was the general norm in the Neolithic." -Riane Eisler, American Scholar, Cultural Historian
"There is the same lack of evidence for violent conflict throughout the simple horticultural period of history as in the hunter-gather era. Graves don't contain weapons; images of warfare or weapons are still absent from artwork; and villages and towns aren't situated in inaccessible places or surrounded by defensive walls." - Steve Taylor, The Fall
"If this was the case - and most scholars agree that it was - then we would expect the transition to agriculture to be accompanied by a great deal of conflict as the groups competed over dwindling resources. But as we've seen, there is almost no evidence of warfare in these areas until the fifth millennium BCE, more than 3,000 years after the advent of agriculture" - Steve Taylor, The FallPlease quote where I said we should disregard the entire Old Testament.
The religion causes conflict WITHIN you Mark.
It is called dissonance. The Christians come to you with all this bible stuff that you knew nothing about. Now you gotta TOTALLY disregard it because it will just blow all your little knowledge to smithereens???
Sorry that you are conflicted, not.
God desires your conflict. If you are conflicted, good news!!!
I remember now that Adam was told that he would return to dust after he ate that fruit. He lived a long time, yes. But God had plenty of time then. What is time to him? He allowed his plan of population go forth. He allowed the angels to help out with the process. Adam was not immortal, though he came from God. Right after Eve was named by her husband because she was the "mother of all who live" the Lord referred to them as human beings who knew good and evil. The tree of life was at stake, so they were banished, not having the opportunity for immortality.
That thing about something that is blatantly obvious is that everyone would see it because it is blatantly obvious. However, you are not showing anything that is blatantly obvious other than the fact the blatantly obvious you refer is little more than your irrational belief.
That indeed is blatantly obvious.Look, I understand your perspective, and I can't say I wouldn't feel the same way. I know this sounds crazy to you and many others, and I understand that, but the truth is, eventually, this will be seen because it is obvious. You have to understand a lot of the stuff I'm talking about here hasn't yet reached 'common knowledge' status as far as our human history is concerned. As you can see from just these discussions, there's a lot of knowledgeable people out there who still prescribe to some of the older views of our primal past and our transition into modernity. And while many of those views make logical sense, the evidence tells a very different story.
I may be off here and there, I may not have it exactly right, but I have no doubt the general framework is on point. And I found it using Genesis.
I don't mean to sound like a know it all like I know I sometimes do. I'm just excited about this. I'm not here to preach to anybody. I'm not saying, 'Hey, look at this and believe in God'. I'm saying, 'Hey, look at this ancient book that nobody knows for sure who wrote or how old it is, this book that's been long ago dismissed by many because of what humans have made of it throughout the centuries, because it appears to answer a lot of questions we're still trying to figure out about our history that nobody seems to see because long held traditional interpretations have confused the story it's telling'. I'm not here to push religion. I'm not a religious guy myself. I'm here to encourage unity between two strongly apposed sides. I'm trying to point out the very real chance that both sides are mostly right, and the answer is lying right there in the middle.
I've never doubted science, but for reasons I won't go into and that you wouldn't buy anyway, I've never doubted God either. Where most have always seen two conflicting viewpoints, I've always only seen cohesion. But it didn't all really come together until a couple of years ago when I re-read that portion at the beginning of Genesis 6. That's when it all snapped into place. It was like moving the sun to the center of our planetary system. All of the sudden I had circular orbits instead of clunky, Ptolemy loops, to use a bad analogy.
Long story short, it is obvious. It sounds irrational to you because the whole concept is absurd in your mind. I get that and I don't expect you to see it right away. But it is obvious. Sooner or later, I think you'll see it too.
Remember what I told you? You have faith, I mean you trust the reporters of your evidence givers only. Though you have yet to test any of it yourself, you have faith, I mean you believe what "they" say about their tests. You saw no giants, no proof. But you saw neanderthals? Proof? I don't know what a neanderthal looks like, cept for some pictures that were drawn. "They" got those bones and assumed that they could piece them together based upon what they have "learned" about whatever. I was not there when they tested and I don't know HOW they did it. If it agrees with what I already know to be true, it passes MY test
but that is why this part of history is just not my cup of tea. I don't understand scientifics. It is just too precise for me. God has secrets known to no one. We can only speculate about all of it. We can never come up with precision in our measurements because there is TOO MUCH we CANNOT fathom. Science is majikal too ATM. But it changes. The next "development" could totally OBLITERATE the "drawing board" and you KNOW that, but do you think YOU will find out about it??? that stuff is just too uncertain. God NEVER changes. Though he has many more "facets" than you or I. He can be depended upon to remain the same. He say "jump!" You KNOW my next question!!!
And you are tye most close minded person I have ever met. You have an actual goalie.
he rejects all that even remotely sounds like JE.... Funny, so so funny. All you do actually know is that no God exists. Therefore your "goalie" works overtime searching something majikal sounding
Sorry Headly, I don't see it that way. You're claiming that your faith has nothing to do with your thinking that there is something else involved in life, when in fact it has everything to do with your faith. You see if an Atheist was making your claims he would no long be an atheist. You can't say your faith has nothing to do with your belief in God.
We are not against discussing anything that might open the door to the possibility of something more. We just need to start with evidence.
Your 'something more' is an absolute biased opinion. It's completely based on your faith. Notice I don't believe you because you have no evidence.There's plenty of evidence. Don't you get that you're just not seeing it because YOUR mind is made up? It's the same thing that you're accusing me of.
No it's not, I'm waiting for the evidence. I've supplied plenty of evidence that shows why our brain's are the way they are.
No, you've made assumptions about the mind/brain based on your materialism view, which is a philosophical perspective. You're claiming things as fact that the top experts won't even claim, again based on assumption formed through your materialism perspective.
Also, I realized the link I provided was bad. Here's a good one ... http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print … tliff-text
You really should check it out if you're not already familiar. It's fascinating beyond this discussion.What would you say to your kids if they decided to say they believe Jesus is the son of God and you suspect it is due to brain-washing? Would you blame yourself?
But not mine. Your biases are standing in the way. Now you argue that thoughts may be read by humans. Critical thinking in action? Or dissonance?
Yes read a few post back where neuroscience shows that certain neurones light up durning certain thoughts. I'm not saying I can do it, but it can be done in an albeit primitive state.
So you will not see that there is something unknown about why we think the thoughts we do and also, why they are so automatic. And how they can be controlled. Nor why this neuron, not that. But wait! Everyone has a different brain. Boy, we are really digging a hole here.
. God explains it. Take it or leave it. He does not require belief from us. That is why HE gave us our own brain. We decide which way to go.The bible explains nothing, but science does, do you really want to go back to the middle ages? The bible doesn't explain how the earth evolves around the sun, and does not explain gravity or time or how our brains work. Science does all of that. Science even explain why we all think differently, the bible doesn't. Let's go back to the middle ages? No electricity, no spherical earth, no understanding of gravity or stars. Is that really what you want?
Foundation is important. When I hear information, I test against stuff that I have already learned. Just like you, when you hear info. You test it against things that you have already learned. Your only objection is God. Critical thinking requires considering all info. You ask me to consider alternatives, I ask the same. You are ok with repeating the phrases that science has figured out the mind. But when I was in school, my sociology professor spoke of something referred to as the black box. A class on conducting studies. This box contains all the things that differentiate each of us but science cannot that unlock what is in there. Everyone has a "black box" I know what's in mine do you know what is in yours? Research has a hard time with this box.
The bible did not tell you that all prayers would be answered. Especially not according to your own will. We must be mature. We must realize that the world revolves around God. Though he is capable of anything, he may not change his plan for you.
Think Jesus in the garden. He prayed that he would not have to go through the crucifixion. But he conceded to the will of God and died anyway. God had a plan. Jesus was the plan. He did his part. Now we must do ours. Believe.1 John 3:22 ESV / 19 helpful votes
And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
John 16:23-24 ESV / 5 helpful votes
In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
Matthew 7:7 ESV / 35 helpful votes
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Mark 11:23
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be removed, and be cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he said shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he said.
Mark 11:24 ESV / 48 helpful votes
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.The bible was written for those who want to know God. When you want to know God, you ask of him. You ask for him. You ask to understand him. You ask him to prove himself to you, you ask in faith that he will. And he do!!! Sorry Teacher:) He does. Those material things we want are not as important. Extra life-span, good health, do this, do that, go here/there now Lord! Are sometimes not feasible.
As for removing the "mountain"...I have done that personally Though my "mountain" is of a personal nature, it is in the "sea"!!! For sure That was one of those metaphors that I learned about "recently." Oh yes! We get what we "want" because the Lord is our shepherd.
We sometimes ask for peace within, patience, a loving heart, abundant life. God will not withhold anything good from us. What are you considering good? Money? Well, that don't fly. You have already, all that you need. God does not cater to greed. When you want God, you get ALL you want. Period1 John 3:22 ESV / 19 helpful votes
And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
Do you not see the word whatever in this sentence? And whatever we ask we receive from himWell, are you thinking along spiritual lines when you ask? as the bible speaks along spiritual lines???
Usually, those who actually do think critically don't go around flaunting it and in the same breath demonstrate a complete lack of thinking altogether.
getitrite, who both genaea and I were talking to, did the same thing. Why did you not include a quote from him as well?
It's clear that I think. You just don't agree with what I say. So it's clear that your comment has nothing to do with who thinks and who doesn't and more to do with who you agree with and who you don't. Refute something I say with substance and I will accept it. You deeming yourself the 'think judge' means nothing to me.
That has been accomplished many times by various folks here. You accepting it is something completely different.
Examples please. Don't just make generalized slanderous statements. Be specific. There are too many here on these forums who do not follow along in all discussions, so a general statement like that can damage credibility. I put a lot of effort into these discussions, making sure I can back up what I say and reading back over previous posts to verify to the best of my ability that I'm staying on topic and am properly understanding the other person's perspective.
If there is something I've said that can be demonstrably proven wrong, I want to know that and will accept being wrong. I have no problem with it. My faith doesn't hang on me being right or wrong about what I discuss here.Only you can damage your own credibility.
But, you don't back up what you say, you jump to conclusions based on things you don't understand.
Im starting to think you're jealous for real.
Why else do you post to me? Under the impression that I may not be sure and will allow you "in"? Nope. I have already explained to you your issues. Dissonance is only the beginning. Critically think about why you keep trying to make me believe that I am wrong? Do you want to believe it yourself? i know that my argument is sound. You, however, sound like you are missing info. You are fighting with truth and losing. And you don't even see it.Your cause and effect ability is flawed. You are merely flattering yourself.
I post to you with the sincere hope that you will see the absurdity of your world view, and that maybe you will stop WASTING your life with this primitive fairy tale.
Actually all your "EXPLAINING" has been pure drivel. Try being honest...can you?
Which you choose to dissolve by reducing the importance of dissonance. Classic case!
Please stop evading the premise by focusing this issue on me. The onus is on you. I merely made an observation about your insane beliefs.
Your argument is not sound. In fact it is pure drivel. You have trained your mind(through rigid brainwashing) to suppress the glaring dissonance immersed in your delusion.Peep this... I have had your attention for weeks! You are the one I posted about Pinocchio for.
You have some desire to save me from my foolishness, but why??? Have you given that any criticism???
I am of the strong belief that my God is watching and providing assistance in this conversation. I really, really believe that
You, on the OTHER hand, are helping to solidify my "irrationalities" with your constant interest in my "dolly", I mean daddy. it is so funny.
Let's take a look at the definition of dissonance...
Awwwww, you lose again. This internet page states that this phenomenon is the result of holding two or more conflicting cognitions. Hmmmm. I only got one. Does that tell you something???
Listen to this: "...motivational drive to reduce dissonance by altering existing cognitions, adding new ones to create a consistent belief system." See??? I have ADDED nothing. I KNOW without one single doubt that what I speak about is real! I am "conflicted" nowhere. See???
Get'cho dissonance outta my face!!!I suspect the problem is that you have been indoctrinated into thinking that anyone trying to convince you that Christianity in invalid is satan trying to temp you. This is simply not the case, there is no satan. Don't drink the cool-aid, I'd miss your smile.
Satan??? That's all you got from my post??? Are you kidding. Just tell me, is that dissonant?
Nope, I didn't get that from just that post. I also said your very cleverly indoctrinated and have a nice smile. But all you heard was Satan. I watched what you said to mister 666. I was hard getting past his name wasn't it?
You have not been indoctrinated? Ok. I think that you are sadly mistaken about what you're thinking. But who may convince you?
You may say what you will. My thoughts are secure. I have no feeling that you will be able to convince me either. We are equally pulling in opposite directions.Indoctrinate: teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. See, the very fact that you say your thoughts are secure is an example of how well you've been indoctrinated. You refuse to look at your faith critically, at that is the very definition of indoctrination. Most were told not to look at it critically because that is how Satan tempts. Very clever isn't it? But there is no Satan, just a religion lying to you.
Now you are just ignoring my post in an attempt to not be shaken???
Critical thinking is what I do I remember mentioning that I did not "buy" those things that I was taught to believe. why haven't you acknowledged that? Is it because you are afraid to go at it alone. I had to give it critical thought. I was not comfortable with what they taught me. Thinking about it is all I do. I must. Now, you can come down from your high-place and think with me. Or go'on somewhere!
Wow! Yep. I'm convinced. Your issues are WAY beyond me! Very serious, indeed. Do what you must! Peace!
So if these traits are the product of life, what is life?
I'm not making that assumption. I'm asking you to explain your answer. Isn't it the organism making use of these elements (like sunlight), and not the elements themselves that cause it? So what caused/motivated living organisms to adapt and use these elements?
Okay, so does that mean you know how? If so, please explain. If not, please explain how you can know anything as to what is or isn't true about how it began.Okay, so earlier when you said "Maybe I can help as I seem to have figured out something that you have not been able to", you haven't really. You're only really fooling yourself into thinking you have it figured out, or that there's nothing more to it to figure out. You, attempting to explain life logically, end up sounding much like a believer trying to explain God logically.
I rest my case.Hey Headly, I've listened to you go on and on about how you've got it all figured out and you haven't convinced me of even one thing. And I've read you trying to explain God logically, your logic was unconvincing.
Defining life is as easy as opening up a dictionary.
Life
1 the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death
2 the existence of an individual human being or animal
3 (usu. one's life) the period between the birth and death of a living thingThat's my whole point, Rad Man. Trying to explain something like this logically turns philosophical because you're no longer in the realm of demonstrable facts. Life is the same way. There's elements to it that cannot be observed/detected scientifically so it just gets ignored.
Even in that definition you supplied, notice how arbitrarily it's defined.... "the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter". Right, that's true, but how? "capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change" Right, but what causes that? What drives life? What animates animate matter?
Fortunately, whether or not you're convinced has no bearing on the validity or legitimacy of my argument. This is where I'd normally put an emoticon to convey the idea that I'm just ribbing you a bit here, but I just can't bring myself to do that.Just because you don't understand the answers or don't except the explanation doesn't mean the answers given are not valid and others don't understand the explanations given. I know why we are here, but my explanation will not satisfy you because you think you have the answer.
That's not true. If your answer was demonstrably provable then I'd accept it. If your answer actually acknowledged life for all it really is, and then actually offered a reasonable explanation, I'd accept it. My faith doesn't hinge on my view of life here. I'm simply pointing out what should be obvious. You can tell yourself that my problem is that I don't understand all you like, but clearly the issue here is that the answers aren't acknowledging the whole truth and are seriously lacking.
Your faith has everything to do with your inability to except an explanation. The proof is in your language. (If your answer actually acknowledged life for all it really is). You've already decided what life really is and you will only except that answer. (but clearly the issue here is that the answers aren't acknowledging the whole truth and are seriously lacking.) Whole truth? See? You think you know the whole truth already.
My language here regarding life is based on observable fact, not faith. I observe that a living thing as simple as a single cell manages to instinctively maintain a constant inner state, exhibits organization, metabolism, and reacts to stimuli, like physically repelling from something harmful. This is a lot to just dismiss and not acknowledge that there's something more to the story here. I'm simply recognizing the significance of these biological functions inherent to every level of living thing. This doesn't require faith.
What if we treated light/dark like we treat life/death? If we dismissed light as nothing more than the opposite of dark? Through understanding light on a fundamental level we've learned to use our knowledge of it to actually measure the distance of the stars. Photons taught us the inherent dual nature of wave-particles and the inherent uncertainty of quantum physics. Would it not be more sensible and possibly beneficial to acknowledge there's obviously more to the phenomenon of life than just something that just IS? Especially considering it's the driving force that propelled life to become all that it has, up to and including a self-aware mind.
Considering your acknowledgement that faith in one view can affect your ability to accept an alternate explanation, can you maybe see how you could be doing the exact same thing?Sure we can study life's biology if you like. To do this you need to become secular, or you jump to conclusions. When you don't understand something, God must have done it.
Just because you and I don't understand the biology of life, doesn't mean biologist don't either. I have a good friend who is a biologist, we don't talk about religion, but his wife calls him a heathen.Clearly, secularism is not required to study life's biology ...
“By any reasonable analysis, evolution does nothing to distance or to weaken the power of God. We already know that we live in a world of natural causes, explicable by the workings of natural law. All that evolution does is to extend the workings of these natural laws to the novelty of life and to its changes over time. A God who presides over an evolutionary process is not an impotent, passive observer. Rather, He is one whose genius fashioned a fruitful world in which the process of continuing creation is woven into the fabric of matter itself. He retains the freedom to act, to reveal Himself to His creatures, to inspire, and to teach. He is the master of chance and time, whose actions, both powerful and subtle, respect the independence of His creation and give human beings the genuine freedom to accept or reject His love.”
- Ken Miller, Cell Biologist/Brown University Professor/Christian, from his book 'Finding Darwin's God'The science itself has to be secular. I matter not if a particular biologist is a believer as long as he doesn't do what you continually attempt to do. Try to prove that God exists because of the things you don't understand rather than trying to find real solutions. If the science isn't secular we go back to the middle ages very fast.
If you go back through all of these discussions you'll find that I am not trying to prove God's existence through what I'm saying. I was actually replying to getitrite who was telling genaea that she was 'willfully ignorant' for believing what she does as if he knew for fact that what she believes is false. I am simply pointing out some of the things that are still not known and making the point that nothing has been determined yet that should allow anyone who claims to be a 'thinker' to criticize others.
Fair, but some of the things that you claim to be unknown are in fact known.
The problem is people who are very well indoctrinated refuse to look at their own beliefs critically. That is getitrite is trying to point out. I'm not saying you fall into this group, as I do think you will look critically at your belief. But others don't, because they have been taught that is how Satan gets through. It is a brilliant form of mind control, and it's painfully obvious to those on the outside to see. Watch for it.Yes it is. But it's nearly impossible to ever realize. The very nature of Christianity is to hold onto that doctrine for dear life no matter what comes your way in the form of reason if it counters what your emotions have led you to believe. Honestly, I've gotten to the point where I'm just like let people believe what they want. As long as they're not subjecting my children to their BS, then we're fine. The world would be a more accepting place in certain regards, but, it is what it is.
Here's the rub. What happens when North American become a continent that values the bible over all other. You end up with people telling their children that the universe is only a few thousand years old. These people reject science as it conflicts with their faith. What happens to innovation, and the sciences if we loose a large percentage of our minds to irrational beliefs? We've already got museums opened trying to convince people that humans walked with dinosaurs. Yes this indoctrination effects all of us.
Yea, and it's happened before. The Dark Ages. But how can we compromise with people who are becoming increasingly more unwilling to compromise? The same thing's becoming apparent in what's going on with the conservatives in politics.
Information is too freely available for a repeat of the dark ages. I think the delusion will be phased out. As the older generations pass on and the newer come up, and with information being as readily available as it is, it just has to work itself out. It's the ebb and flow of life. Like with the conservatives, there always seems to be that first overly-exaggerated reaction initially, but like ripples in water they'll lessen over time.
You assume that information will always be so easily available, and that even if it is, that people will seek it out.
You're right that access to information could certainly be restricted, that's true. But people will always seek it out. Not everyone, of course. But the wonderful thing about truth is that it has a way of cutting through the nonsense and exposing it for what it is. Delusion can only obstruct the truth for so long. There are many non-truths that used to be believed just as fervently that have since passed away. These too shall pass.
In regards to religion, its fatal flaw is in establishing itself as an authority as to what the truth is. Once you do that, and you build an infrastructure around what you've deemed 'truth', then it's hard to adjust when that truth is proven false.
It's said well in one of my favorite quotes from the Kevin Smith movie Dogma -
Rufus: ..... But especially the factioning of all the religions. He [Jesus] said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea, changing a belief is trickier. Life should be malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.
When you can admit you're wrong you can grow. But when your whole business model is built around being right, it's doomed to fail.
Hey! I hear you two
I for one, do not believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old. Back in the day, people lived to be about several hundred years old. Noah was 601 years old when the water dried up. And that was way after Eve and nem, who lived a looooooong time. And way before Jesus.
See??? I Do do some critical thinking.Well talk to me then. You know I got'chu.
shoot! I'm ready.Ok. You state that you believe that Noah was 601 years old after the flood, and that people back then lived for several hundred years. There is no actual record of any humans living too far beyond the average life expectancy...And there is NOTHING in the fossil records to suggest anything such as this ever happening.
Guinness Book of World Records list the oldest human EVER at 122 years 164 days.
Explain how you used critical thinking to arrive at your conclusion.HHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! Now if I were 5, I would be rolling around on the floor! You beleve Ripley????? How old is he????
Appeal To Ridicule...what a convenient fallacy to insert when you want to shift the burden.
What about the fossil records? Are they to be laughed at too? In fact, is everything, except your Bronze Age book of ignorance, to be laughed at?
You are in NO WAY using critical thinking, and you have just proven just how narrow your thinking is...tunnel vision comes to mind!WHat fossil records? I mean, do you expect that Noah's body would be available for review, let's say, from millions of years ago??? Those people are oil, or dirt. or something. We cannot test from the days of Adam. We cannot test from the days of Noah. I can believe what I have been told. Just like you believe what you have been told.
It's not that she isn't thinking critically. Every can and does do that to an extent. It's the fact that there are limits on what she will allow herself to think. That's the difference, and I think it's a crucial one. The human mind is powerful and our emotions just as powerful. We often don't allow ourselves to think or believe anything that will substantially change the way that we see the world. Most religious/spiritually/emotionally driven people are that way. Even those of us who put reason at the top of our list fall prey to our own ego and emotions at some point.
One could define it as:
-a type of critical analysis: disciplined intellectual criticism that combines research, knowledge of historical context, and balanced judgment
-"reasonable, reflective thinking that is focused on deciding what to believe and do."
-disciplined thinking that is clear, rational, open-minded, and informed by evidence
How does one define being "open-minded?" What constitutes something as being evidence? What kind of research is being done? Etc.
It's less about the "critical thinking" itself, and more about the boxes we place on our minds that limit the conclusions that we can come to. It's like knowing how to climb the stairs, hearing about what might be at the top, so you find any excuse not to reach it and become convinced that you've already climbed far enough. You're happy; content. Why keep climbing when it makes sense where you are? You might even think you've reached the top. Who's to tell you you haven't? You've reached a level you think you'll explore as you're happy there. It's better than getting to the top and realizing what's there.THe only limitation placed upon the knowledge of God's children is to not fall prey to each and every doctrine that pops up. We are rooted and grounded in what the Lord says. We believe what he says above all others. It is not only in the book but that still voice on the inside. When that voice is not channeled by God, it wavers with each and every "new and improved" development. That is why wwe do not jump up and buy gallons and gallons of water when they say that the world is about to end. And that is why we do not jump up in the middle of the night to run and meet Jesus, because he will be meeting a certain few of us in the "field" over there. That is also why I would never drink the kool-aid. I know better.
THe only limitation placed upon the knowledge of God's children is to not fall prey to each and every doctrine that pops up. We are rooted and grounded in what the Lord says. We believe what he says above all others. It is not only in the book but that still voice on the inside. When that voice is not channeled by God, it wavers with each and every "new and improved" development. That is why wwe do not jump up and buy gallons and gallons of water when they say that the world is about to end. And that is why we do not jump up in the middle of the night to run and meet Jesus, because he will be meeting a certain few of us in the "field" over there. That is also why I would never drink the kool-aid. I know better.
It is that very limitation that will cause you to never truly partake in critical thinking to its limits. And by all means, keep it that way. I wish I could have, honestly. I'm not here to judge you, miss. Believe exactly what you believe is true. Life's simpler that way. This isn't sarcasm, either. Life's easier when it's as easy as accept Jesus or don't. Yea it gets complicated, but it's easier to find peace with the very root you've found. No objections here.
My only objection to Christians is when they try to force that stuff on us, whether it be a child being pressured by their parents or a society by its government.I get that. But my thoughts are valid to me. I think that people who think differently are busy "running" from what they have been taught. They are trying to piece it together another way. It is doable. There is another way. I just do not want that life. I critically think about everything. But there are a few things that I am sure of. God is real, is just one of them.
That was what you call critical thinking? You stated that noah was 601 when the water dried up. You didn't think critically about the flood of which we have no evidence of or the fact that he lived until he was 601 when nobody lives past 130.
Critical thinking means to think critically.You funny! What do you mean? The bible states that Noah was 601 when the water dried up. Now are you saying that you know more than the "goat-herders" who were there during that time? Hmmm...
I saw a flick that stated that info from the flood was found atop one of those mountains. a boat??? or something. However, now you know better than the bible how long people live??? Please say no.It was you who just stated Noah was 601. What are you talking about. I used your words to show you your inability to think critically.
Duh... the bible said that Noah was 601 years old. You cannot prove the bible wrong. Ha!!!
Of course I can. No one alive today is over 125 years old. Prayer doesn't work, because if it did there would be no Christian in the hospitals. The universe is not as described in Genesis and certainly not 6, 8 or 100 thousand years old because we are receiving light from distant stars where the light has been traveling for millions or billions of years to get to us. In a young universe that light would still be traveling and we would see few stars.
No one alive today lives to be over 125 years you say? But the bible explains why. He stopped that living hundreds of years, thousands of years ago. See? oh! and who told you that about the stars light and billions of years away and all that stuff? I mean, who do YOU trust to do calculations about what happened millions of years ago??? I mean, I aint even 40 yet. I have had some education. But I cannot tell you how to do that calculation. Have you tested it yourself? Or are you just accepting what you have been told??? Please tell me that you have thought critically about that million year calculation.
I have been accused of not "critically" thinking, but that is all I do do.
i critically think about my own actions. And I critically think about all else.
When I have questions, the bible always answers them. Where people see contradiction, I see clearly the actuality because I've studied.
Seek and you will find, works both ways, Rad. Cuz, when you lookin' for disconnection, you find it. It is set up that way. God is calling those who TRUST him. Self gets in the way of that. Self always says, "I know better..." Remember when you were 5? I know I do. I was SURE that I could cook my own breakfast. I did not trust that my momma knew what she was talking about. I'm big enuf! I told myself. I watch her do this stuff all the time, shoot!!! Can you imagine what happens next???
We are those "5year-olds" when compared to the knowledge of the father. We just aint old enough! he asks that we trust him only, even above ourselves. I do.Funny...you have done quite the polar opposite here. But what do I know, I'm delusional to the point that I think God is imaginary.
You could probably say that the dictionary answers your questions, and actually be more honest than this outright dishonest statement.
If a SELF says that it has to depend on the writings of primitive goat herders for wisdom and understanding, then that SELF has relinquished it's critical thinking.
When I was 5 years old I watched my mother cook pancakes. In no time, I was making pancakes...and so were my 6 year old brother and 8 year old sister.Don't you see how you contradict yourself? You say you think critically about all things, but not about God because you don't want to find a disconnect. "God is calling those who TRUST him" so you say, so there is no need to question. So you don't think critically at your belief because as you go on to say we are just children and God knows best. Your indoctrination doesn't allow you to think critically.
Ahaaa!!!! But I said that I think about ALL things critically. I cannot help it. It is one of my gifts. I am not barred from asking questions. I am barred from asking YOU, who does not look to God for your answers. I must ask God himself. You don't know.
See how you look for contradiction? Poor, poor, uncritical thinker.That's the point. I LOOK FOR CONTRADICTIONS. You just ask God as if he had a voice. You don't think critically about God.
Didn't you read all that critical thought I just gave you?? or woudl the dissonance be too much? you must go against what the bible says to prove your point. You go to Ripley??? Now I am still laughing on the inside about that one. But God has secrets known to no one. We cannot even fathom which calculations to do for that info. The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. The bible says that.
And the fact that you believe it because the bible says so proves your inability to think critically.
And the fact that YOU believe it cause Ripley says it, says what about you???
Could you tell me why you keep referring to Ripley? What does Ripley have to do with Guinness Book of World Records? Have you even looked into the reviews of the veracity of Guinness, before spouting off ridiculous nonsense?
Look to the Guinness Book of World Records for what??? These people are definitely not old enough as the people in the bible. They knew more about what happened then than we could ever. Even Guiness.Sorry about the Ripley thinhg, they are all the same to me. New and improved.
I didn't say anything about Ripley. However given the record keepers show no person to have ever lived past 123.something. Why would you take the bible's word for it?
Because the bible is old. It is proven to be right in my sight. I have criticized and criticized. It is sound. I picked it apart. I used the spirit to see clearly the truth. It is not for everyone. But God is searching the world for those who take it in. It is not required.
There's also entire civilizations of people from the same time/place that Genesis is set that swear that immortal beings, human in form, male and female, existed in their ancient past and actually mated with mortal humans, making demi-gods. The Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Akkadians/Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans, all believed it to be actual history. We, of course, assume this was all just made up. What if it's not totally fiction?
What evidence do you have that it's not fiction? I have plenty of evidence that it is fiction.
Well, there's Genesis. There's the dramatic climate changes that coincide with what it says. There's the dramatic change in humans that coincides with what it says. The mass migrations of humans, the social changes and languages those migrating humans brought into the settled communities along various river banks, that coincide with what it says. There's the fact that multiple ancient civilizations independently developed mythologies about their ancient past that all describe very similar stories about numerous immortal beings who interacted with them. There's the correlation between the Ubaid culture of southern Mesopotamia with pre-flood Genesis and the correlation between the Uruk period of the same region and post-flood Genesis. There's plenty of evidence that suggests those stories could have actually been inspired by beings created as Genesis describes. Beings who lived for centuries and built cities and bred with humans and who were then wiped out.
All you've got is a deeply flawed book. That's what I thought. Nothing.
I have an abundance of evidence to back me up when I say the only reason you see Genesis as 'deeply flawed' is because your perception of what it says is flawed.
Man! I've been trying to figure out a way to say that. So many feel that the bible is flawed. I just wanna shake you all; as do you, me
The bible talks about angels coming down from heaven to live with the beautiful women. They had giant babies. We do have evidence for them. Some of their descendants are in the NBA, I'm sure
I assume you're referring to Genesis 6. Some translations actually say 'angels', but what it actually says is 'sons of God'. Luke 3 directly refers to Adam and every one of his descendants all the way through to Joseph/Mary as 'sons of God'. And Hebrews 1:5 specifically says that angels are not the 'sons of God'.
The first few verses of Genesis 6 explain that the 'daughters of humans' that these 'sons of God' were having children with were 'mortal' and says that they only live 120 years. Genesis 5 describes in detail that Adam and his descendants lived for centuries. It makes a lot more sense that Adam and his descendants were the 'sons of God'. The 'daughters of humans' that they mated with were naturally evolved humans who were created in Genesis 1 and had already fully populated the planet by the time the events of Genesis took place. Adam was formed from the ground, by God, and outside of naturally evolved humans. A 'son of God'.
When read in that context, Genesis lines right up with actual history and even explains how and why humans transitioned from hunter-gatherers to civilization builders.Ok, I think I understand what you are saying. But how do we account for the fact that it say sonS of God?Adam was one. In this respect, ALL men are sons of God? In Hebrews, the words spoke of Jesus being the son. Even above the angels. The bible also says that man was made a little below the angels. Hmmm. Sons of God in Genesis different? Because not even angels are sons?
Now it is interesting that the bible says, "to which of the angels did God ever say, you are my son?" I think that the timespan in which these two works were written makes the difference?
Bear with me. I really would like your thoughts.Initially it would have been all of Adam/Eve's descendants. But then some of them started mating with humans. That's when God says 'My spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal'. That's when the lifespans began to decrease.
After the covenant with Abraham it was then the Israelites who were the 'sons of God', which is how God described them when conveying His message through Noah to the Pharaoh. It's the Israelites who were told very specifically who they could and couldn't procreate with. Basically the laws specified to keep it within the bloodline without getting too close. I believe this was to preserve the 'holy seed' (Ezra 9) that 'will not contend with humans forever' (Gen 6). Of course Luke 3 says everyone from Adam to Noah to Abraham to David to Joseph were 'sons of God'. This is the same bloodline that brought about the immaculate conception. The bloodline with the preserved 'holy seed', or 'God's spirit', breathed directly into Adam's nostrils by God.
Then, after Jesus death/resurrection, all believers are then counted as 'sons of God' ...
John 1:12 – But as many as received him [Jesus Christ], to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.
Romans 8:14 – For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
1 John 3:1 – Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God.
Before, God's 'spirit' was preserved through very specific laws that protected against mating outside the 'chosen' bloodline. But after Jesus' resurrection comes the 'holy spirit'. No longer was it confined within the bloodline, but now available to all just by believing. And no longer limited to only the Israelites, but everyone. Through simply believing, "them gave he power to become the 'sons of God'. All of those "led by the Spirit of God". And it's through the Holy Spirit that the law was then written on the hearts of men.
That's my take, anyway.Ah - this is your problem. You are trying to marry ancient myths with current scientific thinking. No wonder you don't understand evolution.
And there you were pretending to be asking questions when you already have all the answers.......My approach is simple. Modern knowledge affords us our most complete and detailed account of history ever available. If there's any literal truth to Genesis, we should be able to see it. So, using only known facts and Genesis, rejecting all other human-based interpretations or theories, I compared the two. Based on the fact that Genesis says Abraham was born 1950 years after Adam's creation and the fact that he interacted with an Egyptian Pharaoh, I pinpointed a timeline of no earlier than roughly 5500 BC. Genesis clearly shows there to be other humans in existence when Adam was created. He wasn't the first human. So, based on that hypothesis I began to research. If beings like Adam and his descendants existed as described during that timeframe and in the region Genesis specifies, what would you expect to see? I have since found considerable evidence that supports my hypothesis, as well as a more complete explanation for the beginning of human civilization than anything else I've come across. Originally this was only for my own understanding. Once it became apparent that this hypothesis, if true, could really help explain some things we're all still trying to figure out about our human history then I felt I needed to share. Either I'm delusional or I'm really onto something. Either way I needed to discuss with others.
What have I said that made you so certain I don't understand evolution? Examples please. Don't just point and laugh at someone's ignorance. Share your knowledge.
If you'll recall, or just go back and look, I stated that the purpose of the questions was an 'exercise in critical thinking'. Something you willingly and knowingly participated in.
Ok, so Adam and Eve did live for hundreds of years. So the earth was being populated by their children's children who were no longer sons of God? When the sons of God mated with the women, they made these warrior babies. But That means Cain should have fit the description, and the whole bloodline up to Jesus. These sons of God named in Luke 3 are making super babies. Pure bloodline should have yielded the same babies, to me.
I think I feel the other explanation of the angels sounds more plausible to me. But hey, I think that is ok. We can disagree about matters such as this and still make "pleasing" status, right?Eh, kind of. Everyone 'of Eve' had the extended lifespan as well as the knowledge of good and evil (free will) gained in the garden. Including Cain and his descendants. What made them unique, other than the lifespan of course, was their ability to behave outside of God's will. If you'll note, the humans created in Genesis 1 were specifically told to populate the earth and establish dominance in the animal kingdom. This is exactly what homo sapiens did between 200,000 - 10,000 BC. This task took numerous generations to accomplish and they did it. Adam and Eve were only told one thing NOT to do by God and they did it anyway because of what would be 'personally' gained. Then Cain killed his brother out of jealousy. They were different. Homo sapiens have a history of being non-violent and egalitarian. But around 5000 BC that changed drastically in the same region that Genesis is set in. Adam was the introduction of the individual human will. It's the dawn of human selfishness.
The interbreeding in Genesis 6 between Adam's bloodline and naturally evolved humans was why the flood happened. As it says, God 'regretted' putting humans on the earth. Descendants of Adam, of their own free/individual will, decided to marry and have children with mortal/120 year living/naturally evolved humans. Not only would the offspring have a long lifespan, but they would also have free will. This is what caused the 'wickedness' that warranted the flood. A local flood in southern Mesopotamia because that's the only place 'wicked' humans existed. Without free will they cannot be wicked.
After the flood there were no descendants of Adam/Eve left except Noah and his sons (with at least one exception, the descendants of the Nephilim in Numbers 13). The rest of the world was still populated by naturally evolved humans. At Babel the descendants of Noah were dispersed in all directions out into the world, each carrying extended (though shorter) lifespans, free will and knowledge gained from the garden, and their own language. This brought about the dawn of civilization in Sumer (where Abraham's father came from), then Egypt, then the Indus Valley, Akkad, Syria, then Greece, then Rome, etc. So, this would make all modern humans, with the exception of a small percentage of indigenous/tribal cultures who have never bred outside their ancestral roots, descendents of both naturally evolved humans AND Adam and Eve.
Again, that's how I see it. And yes, we can totally disagree and be cool. I'm all for that.Now THAT was a lot to take in.
I must go over this in a calmer moment. For now, it has always seemed to me that Noah's family started civilization over again. I thought that they were the only family in existence which to me, had done away with the Nephilum, and everyone else. Gimmie a min Haha. That's cool, Genaea, take all the time you need.
Still trying to understand. So, the sons of Anak are who the reporters mentioned in Numbers. Who? Anak is not mentioned in Luke 3. Though these sons are not listed to be of God, they are big. Ok, so God spared the sons of God, who again, are not mentioned in Luke.
Now, before we go too deep, we should "agree..." here We could go back and forth for days, I can tell already. But "expedience" is key. It has nothing to do with, "love your neighbor as yourself," nor, "love God with everything"
I do want to be correct where I can, so I will give it some brain ThanksKeep in mind the lists in Luke 3 and Matthew 1 only illustrate that the parents chosen for Jesus were directly descended from 'sons of God'> Adam> Noah> Abraham> David, etc. This does not mean these were the only ones in existence 'of Adam/Eve'.
First it was Adam and his descendants. Then came the 'intermingling' and subsequent flood. Then God made a covenant with Noah and it was Noah and his sons. From Babel God dispersed the descendants of Noah into the world. From that point on there were more and more humans who did not behave according to 'God's will'. Before God simply commanded humans to do what He willed and they did it. These humans didn't.
Then God chose Abraham. From this point on He allowed the descendants of Adam and Eve/natural humans to live as they chose. But Abraham's descendants, who were also able to behave free of God's will, He gave them specific commands. And they constantly broke them. He made laws that said who they could and couldn't breed with to retain the 'spirit of God' that 'would not contend with humans forever'. Because of free will, God had to intervene, but it was only this one bloodline. The bloodline that would ultimately bring about the 'immaculate conception'. Once the savior was born, there was no longer any need to intervene.
Anak was a descendant of the Nephilim so he was a product of Adam/Eve that was not descended from Noah. His descendants are the prime examples that others survived the flood, meaning it couldn't have been global. In Numbers they are described as giants. If you'll note, all the people that Moses and the Israelites were commanded to take out were giants. These descendants of the Nephilim, and Og and the Rephaim. The Philistines were giants as well. It's as if Moses and the Israelites were charged with finishing what the flood started.I cant forget that Jesus was not in the "bloodline" of Joseph. He came from God and Mary. And one more time, where did any humans come from if everyone on earth were first descendants of Adam, then Noah? Who got to be intermingled? All Adams' sons were sons of God. Then all their descendants. Then all their descendants. Who could they have intermingled with?
Did you say that there were others beside the families of Adam and Eve?Yes, naturally evolved homo sapiens have existed for nearly 200,000 years and have populated the entire planet since 12,000 years ago. These humans already existed when Adam was created, which I estimate to have been around 5500 BC. Homo sapiens were the humans God created during day six of Genesis 1. These were the 'others' that Cain feared would harm him after he killed Abel in Genesis 4, just before it says he built a city. And these were the 'daughters of humans' that the 'sons of God' had children with in Genesis 6 just before the flood. The flood was a local event only meant for those of Adam/Eve, who only populated a small region.
Joseph and Mary were both descendants of David. The 'immaculate conception' is why I think that bloodline was so strictly controlled. In Genesis 6 it says God's spirit would not 'contend' with humans forever. After Adam's descendants began having children with 'mortal' humans who only live 120 years, each generation's life span decreased. Adam's bloodline made up a very small percentage of the human population. The more the bloodline mixed with the natural human population the more diluted the spirit of God from Adam's side of the family. This is why I think the 'chosen' people couldn't mate outside their own. To retain God's spirit so that Jesus could be conceived in the flesh. After Jesus' death/resurrection there was the Holy Spirit. From that point on the spirit of God was no longer just in the bloodline of the 'chosen', but available to all.Ok, interesting stuff. Naturally evolved homo sapiens??? Please tell me where they came from. I thought all this time that Adam was the first man and eve first woman. Naturally evolving? Hmmm. Does the bible talk about them?
Yes, they're the humans God created in Genesis 1. First it says He created humans, male and female, and commanded them to populate the earth and establish dominance in the animal kingdom. Then it says He looked on all He made and deemed it 'good'. This was the 6th 'day'. Then, Genesis 2 starts with day 7, then the creation of Adam. It's only assumption that the creation of humans in Genesis 1 and the creation of Adam in Genesis 2 are two different depictions of the same event. It turns out these other humans play a vital role in the story. If you correct that one misinterpretation then not only does the rest of the bible make WAY more sense, but it also lines right up with known history.
Genesis 2:1. After the rest on the 7th day says, "neither plants nor grains were growing on the earth. For the Lord God had not yet sent rain to water the earth, and there were no people to cultivate the soil." Then it tels the story if Adam being made.
Vs 18 says, "it is not good for man to be alone". Hmmm. You see where I'm going?
I think Cain was worried about who would find him because kids were popping up everywhere. Him being banished to wander for an indefinite amount of time surely made room for enough time for a sister or brother niece or nephew to catch him and beat him to death for his crime.
What'cha think?
I never said it had to be different. From my perspective, the Greeks share the same origin as everyone else. All the ancient civilizations surrounding the Mediterranean Sea shared many common themes in their ideas of their ancient past. From my perspective each of these civilizations were born of the descendants of Noah after being dispatched at Babel. So it would make sense that their mythologies would share similar themes because they would all be varied versions of the same hardly remembered past.
That is not critical thinking, that is indoctrination and a closed mind.
Do you realize what happens in your mind when YOU do not understand YOUR sciences??? No such "God did it," but "it" did "it" by "itself" or even better, "we just have not figured that out yet".
With God, there are no "uncertainties". People try. But unsuccessfully.
Sorry you did not understand. Usually the most simple answer is the correct one and your need to make it be "majick wot we int unerstand, there4 a goddunnit, innit"" does not wash with us edumakated peeps.
I answered your questions with logical, reasonable answers.
Little wonder your religion causes so many wars. KOh, believe me Mark, I understand just fine. And don't worry, I'm not attacking you. Just making a point. And you made that point beautifully.
Science has a blind spot where life is concerned. Inanimate matter we understand to such a degree that we can actually construct a chain of causation that takes us all the way back to the beginning. Life we don't understand to that degree. We can look at the fossil record and see 'how' life evolved and adapted over the ages, but we don't understand the nature of the phenomenon of life itself well enough to reconstruct its behavior to the same degree. In the case of evolution we're left just guessing at what drove it to become what it became. Is it random mutation? Sure, we'll go with that.
You can act like there's nothing more to it than what you see, but that's clearly not the case. In everything else science demands a cause. Yet where biological life is concerned, like you said, it just is what it is. No explanation that says this is why it behaves this way, or this is what causes it to behave the way it does. It just does. Majik, I guess. Probe any further beyond that and you find yourself on shaky ground.Probe any further beyond what we see and you will find nothing majikal - no shaky ground involved - sorry, there doesn't seem to be anything majikal out there. If it was "clearly not the case that there is nothing more to it than what you see," we would no doubt have found something. Your blind faith that there needs to be "something more," than reality does not help any reasonable discussion.
I answered you with reason and logic. Science "demands," nothing. Life behaves the way it does in order to survive and propagate. You reject this as "illogical," yet the best alternative you can offer is, "there must be something more."
This seems to be based on your own personal illogical need. Somehow - for you - reality is not enough. Your lack of understanding of the evolutionary process seems to be one of the stumbling blocks you face. I suggest educating yourself on this phenomenon instead - it may help you understand the larger one without the need to invoke majick.
Science is quite willing to say, "we don't know how life originated on earth," at the moment. Your majikal answer is unlikely to be it. If you understood evolution - which you clearly don't - that would probably help you.
Let us know when you have finished your research - I hope it changes your outlook to a more rational one. The only point you seem to have made is that you are too lazy to do any research, because you already have the answers - this is why your religion held us back for so many years.Listen to what you're saying ... "Life behaves the way it does in order to survive and propagate." I know, but how? What physically causes this physical behavior? How can organisms at the most basic level behave in such particular ways to achieve such particular outcomes? Obviously, you'd find it strange if pebbles on a driveway moved themselves out of the path of a car. So why are you so willing to dismiss this as being just the way life is? In all things science, if something happens there must be a cause, right?
Life, as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary:
"The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism."
I told you the cause. Survival and propagation. What don't you understand about that? Life is driven to survive and propagate. This is the cause. Why am I willing to accept that this is the way life is? Because that is the way life is. I don't need anything more than this to understand it. The only reason you do is because you have a belief in an Invisible Super Being that is completely unnecessary to the process to defend. Rather than taking the hard route of understanding the mechanisms - you tell me I am being illogical for accepting what I can see with my own eyes.
Yes. And?"Life is driven to survive and propagate"
Right, but driven by what? Do you not see that? If something's driven, it must be driven BY something. Motivated BY something. Driven to survive and propagate, but by what? Survival only motivates when survival is desired. But life at the most simplistic levels do this though they're not capable of cognitive desire or volition. What don't you understand about that?Evolution, is what causes the will to survive. Evolution has selected those with that will and left those without to die and not propagate. We are a product of that selection. When a person doesn't have that will they don't survive and don't propagate. What is there not to understand?
It is driven by the need to survive and propagate. This is one of the basic tenets of life. Without survival and propagation, life would cease to exist. Survival is always desired. Always.
Cognitive desire? What are you talking about? You don't need cognitive functions to survive and propagate. Life survives and propagates or dies.
Seems to me the question you are actually asking is "Why is there life?"Mark Knowles posted 2 years ago
"I am not stalling, but do not wish to attempt to defend a 190 year old out-of-date theory against a massive array of pre-prepared questions.
I also do not see the point in this particular question as it relates to the religious beliefs that you wish to put forward."
http://hubpages.com/forum/post/610146GardnerOsagie posted 2 years ago
"No one is attacking you, you're too sensitive. Stop playing. You've spent your entire life in on HP attacking and belittling Christians. Your claims range from “I have facts and science, “always saying “evolution has proving us wrong” You claim to be a scientist. Prove it. Bring your augments and facts to that support your claims."
http://hubpages.com/forum/post/610168
This is Jessica again. I will stay away from you people because you don't want to hear about the gospel all the time. It is ineffective away because people don't always want to hear about God because they want to talk about something else. I loos friends because all I want to do is talk about God. If you want to talk to me late me know. God bless you. Talk to you later.
If you deny God's word then you deny God. Nobody can push people away from God, except if you tell them to go to Hell, be a hyprocrite, not helping out and being mean too. I am sorry that you don't want to hear me talk about God all the time. I am not here to offend anybody, but I am here to defend myself, if somebody is offending me. We are like that. I just want to get to know people, so don't kick me off here. What is your testimony all about? What shall we talk about?
You should check out openbible online because that is where I get all my scriptures on those subjects? Why is bible verses spam if it is from God? What does personal attack mean to you? What is your testimony about? Do you mind asking to many questions? I ask questions because that is how I get to know people. God bless you
- genaeaposted 13 years ago0
GENAEA WROTE:
Critically think about why you keep trying to make me believe that I am wrong? Do you want to believe it yourself? That is why I don't associate with nonbelievers because we are not eventually yoked with them and it even says that in the Holy Bible. If you associate with nonbelievers then it will only cause disagreements, hurt feelings, opinions that clash and offensive or defensive comments will get involved too. You can remove them and not quarrel with them because it makes you look like they have power over you, but they won't because God defeats the Devil. I went through this before. I have been a believer all my life because my dad taught us at a young age to know our Holy Bible, he quizzed us on the Holy Bible, he prayed with us and we went to church too. My mom supported my dad too. I grew up that way. When I was eighteen through twenty six years old I rebelled because I used to party with people because I wanted to fit in, wrong thing to do, sexual immorality problems, had abuse drink boyfriends and druggie or maybe drinker boyfriend too. God saved me from that life and renewed me because I started to put my trust in God again like when I was younger. God has changed me. I am reading the Holy Bible, working on my faith, church and making the right kind of friends that can stay in my life too. God bless you. Talk to you later. I hope to hear from you again. Have fun. It is almost the weekend.
See GENAEA, indoctrinated so well she won't even talk to non-believers.
But, I talk to you over and over!
I knew you was a believer
LoL, you don't "associate" with non-believers because you're full of yourself. You just don't know it, yet.
Genae I am glad how you treated me wrongly by attacking me through email and being dissonce too. Pennyofheaven has left me alone because there is no argument there. Mo2TownChinatown has backed off because she doesn't want to loose a debate with me. God defeats our enemies for us. The rest of people on here refuse to debate with me. Thank you for avoiding me, if you would rather argue with me, JMK26 and KikiLari. Thank you so much for avoiding me if you all want to argue with me. God bless you. Who wants to talk to me? What is going on? What is your testimony like? How are you doing? Have a great day. God bless you. Talk to you later. Good day to you all.
I feel like I'm debating from inside a mental hospital. Religion is a serious mental disease. I would probably be more successful arguing with the mental patients talking to the wall, than with fanatic believers, who seem much more disturbed.
That might be a bit exaggerated. But I understand your frustration. That's why I gave up the fight. You can't change the way that people think. Only life can do that. But saying that it's a mental disease certainly isn't necessary. If anything, it's actually a successful way to survive, unless you become one of the martyr types.
We are supposed to turn the other cheek and let them slap you on the other cheek. Debating is not going to get you anywhere except sinning and getting away from God by being angry about it. Do you want scripture on that one? What do you want? Quarreling is just foolish. Why are you doing that? Why be foolish? I will pray for God to change all your hearts. God bless you.
I am out of this conversation because I only believe what the Holy Bible tells, we need to live by the Holy Bible, we need pray and go to church. What do you do? Why is that ? I am not going to argue about anything on here. What about science is true? Can you prove to me? Why is that? Talk to you later.
so angels are here on earth? On the NBA?
Have they spoken to you? when did they say jesus is coming. Did they give any guarantee?
If not. Then all the above are just your own opinion. Also evidence doesn't equal proof.The nba thing was a joke. The bible speaks of celestials coming down to marry an bearing children. They were giants. I believe the bible. I know giants existed, I know why. God wiped them out with the flood.
Thanks, I spewed coffee out my nose on that one.
Actually, giants did exist in antiquity. This is an ancient skull from Bolivia:
As you can see from this one, there is only one suture, not characteristic of homo sapiens.
And here are others:
I do sense a "photo-shop" argument here. So I decided to research more:
It is known that the ancient pharoahs had very elongated skulls. Some more prominent than others but it wasn't normal.
A stone image of Nefertiti:
Here is the skull of Tutankhamen:
As you can see, the skull looks remarkably like the first image I posted. This is why the pharoahs were worshiped as gods. They weren't quite human.
This one is gross. It is from the Ica "Museo Maria Reiche" museum:
Reports of giants are not limited to the Bible. They are acknowledged all around the world:
1. NORDIC MYTHS:
The Jotunn were great giants.
2. SCANDINAVIA:
The first men of creation were as big as mountains.
3. GERMANIC MYTHS:
Permanently preoccupied with giants are the myths of the Germanic tribes.
4. GOTHS:
The giants were drowned in the Deluge. The survivors fathered a race of giants.
14. CHAD:
There once lived in the Chad region black giants with smooth hair, from whom the present tribes are descended. (Legends of the present day Kotoko tribe)
CHAPTER 1:
ANCIENT REPORTS OF GIANTS
Traditions drawn from the racial memory of races worldwide state that the very first people on earth were mighty and of immense stature, but that they later degenerated in size and vigour.
For example, the present day Kotoko people of Chad, Africa, claim that their ancestors were giants. "In those days men were so tall they could look over the trees," they say.
"Men twice as tall as us" once inhabited the "realm of delight", claim stories of old China, but they lost it by not living "by laws of virtue".
God was angry with the giants, say the Montagnais Indians of Canada, and sent a flood upon them.
It is a fact that the whole world seems to enshrine ancestral memories of giants. One could cite scores of such legends, from everywhere.
Here are some of them:
EUROPE:
1. NORDIC MYTHS:
The Jotunn were great giants.
2. SCANDINAVIA:
The first men of creation were as big as mountains.
3. GERMANIC MYTHS:
Permanently preoccupied with giants are the myths of the Germanic tribes.
4. GOTHS:
The giants were drowned in the Deluge. The survivors fathered a race of giants.
5. CELTIC LEGENDS:
The Gargantua giants are spoken of.
6. IRELAND:
There are stories of giants called Fomorians.
7. BRITISH LEGENDS:
We find Gog and Magog and Albion, the giant-god.
8. CLAUDIUS AELIANUS (2nd century):
On Atlantis were "men twice as tall as those common to our climate, and they lived twice as long."
9. GREEK LEGENDS:
The Titans, who some said were the first men on earth, were great giants.
10. GREEK LEGENDS:
The Cyclopes were of immense stature and said to be the builders of the enormous masonry in Greece, Italy and certain other areas of the globe.
11. SICILY:
Enceladus, the giant who warred with Zeus, was buried under Mt Etna.
12. SICILY:
Typhoeus, a giant of a mountain chain of Asia Minor, was also buried at Mt Etna.
13. SICILY:
The giant Lestrigons were said to have dwelt in Sicily.
AFRICA:
14. CHAD:
There once lived in the Chad region black giants with smooth hair, from whom the present tribes are descended. (Legends of the present day Kotoko tribe)
"The enormous piles of large stone blocks near Goulfei were transported there by the Sao, men so tall that they could look over the trees." (same tribe)
ASIA:
15. CHALDEA:
The Izdubar were giants.
16. BABYLONIANS:
"The ancient Babylon was founded by giants saved from the Deluge."
17. BABYLON:
The Babylonian Talmud mentions a prehistoric race of giants who had double rows of teeth.
18. BOOK OF ENOCH:
A race of giants dominated the earth before the Flood.
http://www.beforeus.com/email/article/a … iants.html
Here is actual historic reports of giants:
http://krishnascience.info/files/Giant_Human.html
This is seriously freaky!
It's interesting Darwin doesn't mention the giants. Maybe it's the missing link! LMAO!Sometimes when someone says something so completely ridiculous, it makes us laugh hysterically. However, when someone else follows up attempting to support the completely ridiculous, then it's just very sad and somewhat disturbing.
Poor thing. Completely indoctrinated by the world's lies. You're a person who clings to Darwin's theory not thinking for one moment you have been lied to. Where's your critical thinking that you accuse Christians of lacking?
The world is not as it seems. People may be blinded by religion but you are blinded by what we are told is the norm and what isn't.
If you were taught from young that there were giants and shown these pictures by teachers, you'd believe it today. If a book was written about it by mainstream scientists, you'd swallow it up like Darwin's theory of evolution.
Fortunately there are people out there that can see beyond what they see.
Excellent rebuttal, btw. I was blown away.Claire, I'm a graphic artist and spend most of my time using photoshop, and my professional opinion is those photos were photoshoped. You have been duped once again. Remember how the Olympics went?
"Claire, I'm a graphic artist and spend most of my time using photoshop, and my professional opinion is those photos were photoshoped. You have been duped once again. Remember how the Olympics went?"
Tell me how your professional opinion came about. So I suppose those skulls in the museum are fake, too?
Did you read the links I posted?
"You have been duped once again. Remember how the Olympics went?"
Prove I've been duped. Aren't you concerned about your kids being duped in a Catholic school?
What happened at the Olympics, or in this case what didn't happen, is completely irrelevant to the subject.
Where's your critical thinking? Just because you don't want to believe something I'm duped? Don't be like Christians who deny things just because they don't want to believe things they find not palatable.The lighting is wrong and the pixels aren't natural. The mutilated elongated skull are unfortunately real and are the results of what humans do to themselves. Babies skulls are pliable.
No. The photos are fake, no need to proceed.
You think we would have seen these photos of giants all over the news? No I'm not concerned my kids are being duped by the Catholic church. I've taught them to question everything. You mishap about the Olympics should show you how misguided by your God you've been. That is a character judgement, so it's relevant.
What makes you think I don't want to believe something. I want to believe in an afterlife, but just because I want one doesn't make it so.Oh, so you know for a fact that those skulls came about from mutilation? That's interesting and I suppose those devil horns were just glued on that skull in that museum?
Hey, did they have fake fossils like the Piltman? All the fossils must be wrong then because of that fake fossil. It amazes me that scientists were so stupid not to know the difference between a human and extinct pig. Of course not. They promoted that hoax.
Now I know photo-shop creates a lot of hoax pictures. That is why I did additional research and there are scientists who say the existence of giants has been proven.
http://s8int.com/WordPress/2010/06/10/g … cent-past/
Fake?
Unless it's not human?
Fake?
My point is that there are always going to be hoaxes but that doesn't mean they all are. In fact, I think the third picture I posted for Troubledman is fake.
Cop out. In other words, you don't want to learn about the possibility of giants.
Reports of giants have been reported:
News
Science
Controversies in science
Royal College of Surgeons rejects call to bury skeleton of 'Irish giant'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ … um-display
I'm releasing a hub about the Olympic Games and why no terrorist attack happened soon. I'm just putting it up. You should check it out. So basically your kids go to school that teaches them the hoax of Christ? Aren't you confusing them a tad bit? It's like me taking my kids to a Muslim school and then telling them Allah doesn't exist and me saying, "Don't believe what the teacher is telling you!"
If your acknowledge these giants then you have to rethink what you thought was true about Darwin's theory of evolution.His "open mind" has no problem going from rethink to think again. They are ok with constant questions. Their answer will never be "God did it" they have indoctrinated themselves with their own knowledge.
Your not using the word indoctrinated properly. To be indoctrinated one has to be convinced of something that is irrational. Which one of us is convinced of something irrational? Science covering up that giants used to be here or no evidence of giants exists?
Actually, you are adding "irrational" to the definition.
To me, it is irrational to believe as you do. I think that indoctrinated is the perfect word. You lean on what you understand. You don't understand much. Thus, irrational.
The bible says that there were giants. I believe that. Even if you provide me NO proof. You think it irrational but who made you the expert on rationalization? Guiness?
Science has no reason to hide giants. There were the neanderthals and a few other distant cousins running around a few thousand years ago and science has studied and displayed them. I think they would be interested in giants as well. I suppose you have an explanation as to why they want to cover this up?
Not really in the giant debate, but I can certainly see why science would find them hard to fit in their evolutionary chain, between the rock they must have started with and the man they need to end up with.
I do not believe that the Neanderthals were 9/10/11/12 feet or over. If you had looked at my links, you would have seen more information on this.
Adult male Neandertals averaged 5 feet 5 inches tall (164 cm.) and 143 pounds (65 kg). Females averaged 5 feet 1 inch tall (155 cm) and 119 pounds (54 kg). They probably stood as erect as we do and were fully bipedal. They were not only strong but apparently quite flexible. The thickness and high density of their leg bones suggest that they did a great deal of walking and running. Their lower arm and leg bones were short compared to modern humans.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_2.htm
There are a few things to ponder. Why are earth would so many ancient cultures around the earth report on giants? They didn't have twitter back then.
It's interesting that some skeletons just happen to go missing when they are discovered as with the skull with the horns.
As to why there'd be a cover-up. it would open a can of worms about the origins of life. It completely contradicts Darwin's Theory of Evolution. As I understand it, we are supposed to have evolved from neanderthals who were smaller than us. So how do we get giants from the distant past? What environment did they live in to make them so tall?
And so comes in the Ancient Astronaut Theory, which the Bible does to a certain extent corroborate. The Nephilim were giants and interbred with humans. This would insinuate there was no natural evolutionary process. People we have today could be the result of interbreeding with aliens or genetic engineering. The Sumerian text, from which Genesis comes from, backs this up. Extra-terrestrials could circulate the globe and interbreed with people from other cultures and this is why we keep reports from giants from ancient cultures around the world.
For example, 14. CHAD:
There once lived in the Chad region black giants with smooth hair, from whom the present tribes are descended.
This indicates interbreeding.
I think you have heard of the theory of reptilians. This ancient gods were reptilian in appearance. In fact, the one who was responsible for genetic engineering of humans according to the Sumerian Text, was Enki who was reptilian in appearance. Maybe that's where we get the reptilian brain?
Now the Book of Enoch was thrown out and for good reasons. The Watchers interbred with man and they were reptilian in appearance.
"Among the 50 documents released for the first time in this book is a reference to the Watchers that is unique, for it provides one of the few physical descriptions of them. The text, called "The Testament of Amram," describes the experience of a person named Amram in which "an angel and a demon" were wrestling over his soul: "[I saw Watchers] in my vision, the dream-vision. Two [men] were fighting over me. I asked them, 'who are you, that you are thus empowered over me?" They answered me, 'We [have been em]powered and rule over all mankind.' They said to me, 'Which of us do yo[u] choose to rule [you]?' I raised my eyes and looked. [One] of them was terrifying in his appearance, [like a s]erpent, [his] cl[oak] many colored yet very dark...[And I looked again], and ... in his appearance, his visage like a viper ... [I replied to him,] 'This [watcher,] who is he?' He answered me, 'This Wa[tcher,] ... [and his three names are Belial and Prince of Darkness] and King of Evil.'"
What makes this testament even more intriguing is the fact that this little-known character named Amram is quite an important personage. Amram, it turns out, was the father of one of the most famous contactees in history, the man who delivered the Jews from slavery in Egypt. This person is, of course, none other than Moses!"
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/ha … t_race.htm
Now Darwin was partially truthful in that he said our ancestors were reptiles. He just omits the parts as outlined above and said it was a natural process.
If we discovered that these stories were true, it would rewrite history and those who write history don't want it that inclined. They want you to believe lies.
Here is an ancient Mesopotamian statue of a reptilian:
Today, Freemasons and Satanists are involved in serpent worship as were the Israelites. Remember Moses and his brazen serpent?
The Knight of the Brazen Serpent (25° AASR) is a Masonic degree. Here is the doctrine:
"Man had fallen, but not by the tempting of the serpent. For with the Phoenicians, the serpent was deemed to partake of the Divine Nature, and was sacred, as he was in Egypt. He was deemed to be immortal, unless slain by violence, becoming young again in his old age, by entering into and consuming himself. Hence the Serpent in a circle, holding his tail in his mouth, was an emblem of eternity. With the head of a hawk he was of a Divine Nature, and a symbol of the sun. Hence one Sect of the Gnostics took him for their good genius, and hence the brazen serpent reared by Moses in the Desert, on which the Israelites looked and lived." - Pike, M&D, p. 278 - lower. (Lecture of the 18th Degree.)
"The Phoenicians regarded the God Nomu (Kneph or Amun-Kneph) by a serpent. In Egypt, a Sun supported by two asps was the emblem of Horhat, [.'.] the good genius; and the serpent with the winged globe was placed over the doors and windows of the Temple as a tutelary God. Antipater of Sidon calls Amun 'the renowned Serpent,' and the Cerastes is often found embalmed in the Thebaid." - Ibid, p. 496, upper. (Lecture of the 25th Degree.)
"The Serpent entwined round an Egg, was a symbol common to the Indians, the Egyptians, and the Druids. It referred to the creation of the Universe. A Serpent with an egg in his mouth was a symbol of the Universe containing within itself the germ of all things that the Sun develops.
"The property possessed by the Serpent, of casting its skin, and apparently renewing its youth, made it an emblem of eternity and immortality. The Syrian women still employ it as a charm against barrenness [note: even today? in 2003 c.e.?] , as did the devotees of Mithras and Saba-Zeus. The Earth-born civilizers of the early world, Fohi, Cecrops, and Erechtheus, were half-man, half serpent. The snake was the guardian of the Athenian Acropolis. NAKHUSTAN, the brazen serpent of the wilderness, became naturalized among the Hebrews as a token of healing power. 'Be ye,' said Christ, 'wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.'" - Ibid., 496-497.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer … ribe11.htm
Helena Blavatsky, Founder of the Theosophical Society says:
Lucifer represents Life Thought Progress Civilization Liberty Independence Lucifer is the Logos the Serpent, the Saviour. " H.P. Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine, Vol. II pg. 171,225,255
It's wise to note that Darwin's grand-daddy, Erasmus Darwin, was a Freemason.
So now if we are a hybrid of this serpent race and humans that God created, is it not surprising why we are capable of both good and evil?
Is it possible that people today can shape-shift into reptilians today?
Have a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrHHiie_ … h_response
There is something also very interesting:
Do you see a human eye on a reptilian face?
Finally, a recap of giants:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCCi00_D-gsI never said Neanderthals were giants and we didn't evolve from Neanderthals, but we have a common ancestor. I mentioned them because science does not cover them up, they study them as they would any findings.
It is interesting that some finding go missing after only a few pictures are taken. That would be because they can not be proven to be a lie when the evidence is gone. It would be okay to contradict Darwin's theory if you had another theory that is better fitting.
Tell me where does Darwins theory say that our ancestors were reptiles?
Most importantly please read this link.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news … leton.htmlMy mistake, sorry.
Well, there is a giant on display in an Irish museum. As I said, giants don't fit into the evolutionary process which is something that mainstream science is not interested in you knowing. In fact, you should read this:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Ascendancy.htm
Well, things that may be true aren't fitting to you because your brain has been engineered to believe what is normal and what is not. That's how we are conditioned through the media, etc. Many Christians are conditioned to believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. That's just the way it is.
Reptiles preceded mammals, right? The ancestors of birds are reptiles. They took on reptilian features.
The earth was once dominated by mammal-reptiles then they evolved to primitive mammals. I assume that eventually led to us.
Study: Human placenta has reptilian ancestry
:New research reveals the placenta, which supplies the fetus with oxygen, nutrients and ensures the fetus is not rejected by the mother's body, that spills from a woman's body after childbirth is rather reptilian in its ancestry.
"The placenta is this amazing, complex structure and it's unique to mammals, but we've had no idea what its evolutionary origins are," said researcher Julie Baker, a molecular biologist at Stanford University in California.
Now Baker and her colleague have discovered the inner lining of eggs laid by the distant ancestors of all mammals could be the origin of the placenta, and the whole setup evolved as mammals employed leftover reptilian-like genes."
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/1137/56/
Common ancestry or not, we have reptilian traits. I can't find a quote from Darwin, admittedly, that he said reptiles are our ancestors but, well, it seems like common sense.
Please read this link:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top … ltdown-man
http://www.nwcreation.net/evolutionfraud.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska_Man
But, we weren't shown those pictures by teachers claiming they were giants that existed because that would somewhat insane.
Excellent rebuttal, thanks. You only think it's insane because you have been brought up to believe it's not possible. It's indoctrination. You'd believe Bugs Bunny was our common ancestor if mainstream scientists said it was so.
Repeat a lie often enough and people will believe it. Baa, baa.But, they don't, because that would be insane, kind of like claiming giants existed.
You obviously miss my point. It's due to the indoctrination obviously. You and Christians are so similar. Being in denial of things because they don't think it's possible. You don't believe you can be wrong and some Christians don't believe the Bible can be wrong. The one cries, "Insane!" and the other claims, "Godless heathen!"
Lol.
Did you even read the links I posted?
You do realize that makes no sense whatsoever.
You know giants existed? Where is the evidence? And where is the evidence for the flood?
There is no evidence for giants. But you know, there's actually this pretty awesome segment about how the Grand Canyon was formed. To the Christian's dismay, however, it would take more than one giant flood to create it considering all the different levels of sediment that required a number of times being flooded by water over a longggg period, at least every 100,000 years or something. I can't remember what it was called but it was fascinating. On national geographic or some similar channel.
So you are talking about the past. I thought you were referring to present times. Perhaps i misunderstood.
Science bible verses here: Isaiah 40:12 ESV / 20 helpful votes
Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand and marked off the heavens with a span, enclosed the dust of the earth in a measure and weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?
Isaiah 40:22 ESV / 19 helpful votes
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in;
Genesis 1:1 ESV / 17 helpful votes
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Psalm 111:2 ESV / 15 helpful votes
Great are the works of the Lord, studied by all who delight in them.
Ecclesiastes 1:6-7 ESV / 13 helpful votes
The wind blows to the south and goes around to the north; around and around goes the wind, and on its circuits the wind returns. All streams run to the sea, but the sea is not full; to the place where the streams flow, there they flow again.
Job 26:7 ESV / 12 helpful votes
He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing.
Psalm 104:5 ESV / 10 helpful votes
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
Romans 1:20 ESV / 9 helpful votes
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Ecclesiastes 1:13-17 ESV / 9 helpful votes
And I applied my heart to seek and to search out by wisdom all that is done under heaven. It is an unhappy business that God has given to the children of man to be busy with. I have seen everything that is done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be made straight, and what is lacking cannot be counted. I said in my heart, “I have acquired great wisdom, surpassing all who were over Jerusalem before me, and my heart has had great experience of wisdom and knowledge.” And I applied my heart to know wisdom and to know madness and folly. I perceived that this also is but a striving after wind. 1 Timothy 6:20
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