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- genaeaposted 12 years ago
0Since I identify as Christian, because I believe in Jesus as the savior, I speak of it often.
I have found that in all my conversations with the most intelligent, and/or highly articulate, and some not so articulate; I am bombarded with many objections to my faith.
I am accused of being indoctrinated; unable to think for myself; and my personal favorite, unintelligent. I just wonder why??? If I am speaking things as I see them. I am well within my right.
Why is the name Jesus, such a sore area for so many? The way I see it is this: If I am wrong, why must you try to convince me? I am not the ultra pushy evangelizer who will visit you at your home uninvited, to spread the word o'God.
I am convinced of my position. Are you not convinced of yours?What you say does not sound very unintelligent to me. Most people will, I think, respect your convictions. Don't be angry at the ones who do not. Have a nice day.
Anger does not come into play. I have some type of patience that allows for the most ridiculous of statements
Thank you for your comment, I just wonder why this subject usually ends with name-calling and disrespect. Where does the "anger" come from? The name Jesus really ruffles feathers. I guess it is supposed to. Satan has many more followers.What's really hilarious is that you answered your own questions.
Pointing out your flaws and fabrications.
God designed it as such- if everything was faster than the gator then it would starve now wouldn't it?
So god designed it to kill? Odd god you have. Perhaps he could have designed it to eat sun light? Why design it and us to be predators and in a sense murderers on a daily basis just so we can all survive?
I'd say any conscious god that designed it all this way should never be forgiven for it's lack of compassion and its cruelty.
On the other hand if the universe was produced through a non-conscious process it all makes sense, and it isn't maliciousness.
The fact that there is real evidence of nature (that being the nature of energy/matter) and there is no real evidence of a god is a positive thing.
Never the less, I respect your right to believe what ever you like. But if you are on these kinds of forums you are going to have to justify your beliefs and expect all manner of opinions.
Best to grow a think skin like the gator.
I think you're right with this one....lol
I think the anger has many different roots that can't be summed up in every non-christian being "Satan's followers." It's ideas like that that many people find to be rude. Just because we don't believe in Jesus, we are "Satan's followers" whether we want to be or not. it's the psychology amongst other things that perpetuates the doctrine and the dogma that bother most of the people I know, along with myself. You can believe whatever you like, but sometimes, no matter what you believe, somoene won't like it. Just read the situation... If it's inappropriate, don't bring it up, or do expect to get some flack. Just like Christians want our respect, they should respect us. Just like you are passionate about what you believe, a lot of people passionately disagree.
Yes, I can respect your space, if you respect mine.
Look at the comments on this topic from the beginning. Now, answer honestly, was it the Christian who used sarcasm and degrading name calling first? No, the unbelievers did. They are making fun of genaea for asking a religious question. What I fail to understand is why even attempt to answer a faith-based question if you do not share her beliefs? It is to fight and play the "I'm smart, see" game. What disrespect has she shown any of you? It is you "honest intellectuals" that have been disrespectful. I'm sorry if you guys have had bad experiences with Christians, but we are as individual as unbelievers are. To attack and make fun of one for his/her belief system and turn around and claim that those members of that system are disrespectful is more than disingenuous. If you flack for what you believe do you simply concede that you should never speak of it again? That would turn us all into pets would it not?
Jesus said in Matthew 10:34, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Why is this? It is simply because the Holy Spirit that is within the Christian and the spirit of this world which is within the unbeliever, are at odds. You recognized "truth" when you heard it and the world at large has not (sadly). I would say they remain indoctrinated and you have been set free!
indoctrinate
verb
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
This means that the word indoctrinate, can only be use when a person or group has a belief that they haven't thought critically about. If someone just excepts on faith that God or the holy spirit exists without question, they have been indoctrinated.No, as an educator, I can assure you that indoctrination does not require any critical cognitive behavior. We are all indoctrinated from birth to death. The difference is simply that some have realized this simple truth and thus, are set free (choosing to shake off their "taught" world view) while most continue on as usual-indoctrinated in their views that if visualized, would look oddly like a Venn Diagram. If you do not think that you have been indoctrinated my friend, you are greatly mistaken!
Sure I was raised as a Catholic and was indoctrinated, but at about 11 or 12 I started to question what I was doing and started to look at the church from the outside. Nobody told me to think the way I do and I didn't bring it up to anyone until I was about 19. So you tell me just how I was indoctrinated to be an Atheist? I think that if one can plant the seed of doubt young enough (before the brain is finished developing) some can be reached. Otherwise we end up with someone disbelieving science in the favour of the bible.
Radman, this doesn't make sense. If you were indoctrinated, you could not possibly start to question later on. You would have pushed all critical thinking aside. Indoctrinated people can't reason.
Sure they can, they just need to start before there brain is fully developed. Once I started to question I couldn't stop. The next thing I know I was looking from the outside in.
I think it was, why would a loving God allow so much suffering?
My first question, which consequently got me kicked out of Sunday school (and before I went to Bible college) was "how can you be perfectly just and perfectly merciful if mercy is the suspension of justice?"
Not an easy question since the penalty must be paid for justice to prevail. Mercy then required someone else pay the penalty. Jesus did. Penalty is paid and mercy is offered. So the debate then becomes that you may feel it is not justice since the penalty was paid by someone else. If the penalty was owed by mankind and a sinless man who owed no dept therefore paid it, it squares. I suspect you will disagree. That is the answer I believe God gave though.
I don't believe that substitutionarry atonement is particularly moral at all. I would also argue that
1) god is supposedly the one that created the laws.
2) god created evil
3) god created human beings knowing what would happen, what they would do and how it would work out.
4) god created the law that he new was impossible for humans to follow
5) god punished human beings for not being able to follow the law
6) god enjoyed the scent of burning flesh, so for awhile they sacrificed animals according to his command.
7) animals ceased to be sufficient
8) god (who is apparently all knowing and all powerful) instead of deciding to just forgive people because he loves them, decided that the ONLY way around his own law was to create a loophole so no one would have to be responsible for ANYTHING that they do, if they only believe something the way he says to (except no one can agree how that is)
9) god sent himself in human form who may or may not be equal to himself, depending on which gospel you read, to earth to wander around for 30 so years with NO historical contemporary evidence whatsoever even though he raised people from the dead, healed people and whipped business owners out of the temple
10) god "sacrificed" himself to himself to appease himself because clearly that makes sense when you can do anything you want and there couldn't possibly be an easier way
11) at the moment of gods death, he abandoned himself and dozens of jewish zombies roamed the streets of jerusalem (completely unnoticed, incidentally) as well as the curtain being torn from top to bottom, unexplained darkness and earthquakes (also completely unnoticed)
12) god vanishes for 3 days - incidentally, what is the significance of the 3 day waiting period? It can't possibly represent the trinity, since the trinity didn't actually exist for another couple hundred years - and thing brings himself back to life and goes back home, good as new.
How does this not sound completely ridiculous to you? this doesn't even go into all the ridiculousness of the old testament stories.
Maybe it's because this "truth" that you speak of is filled with only LIES. Imagine that!
Try actually telling the truth and we will have no problem believing...If we disregard our intellectual honesty, and choose to believe despite the glaring dissonance, we will just become dishonest, immoral, willfully ignorant, blind followers. There is no honor in being a slave.I have told the truth, perhaps you have missed something in my post and should read it again. I did not say that my truth is known to you, I simply gave a Biblical reason to Genaea for the hostility that she encounters because of her faith in Jesus the Christ. Further, my truth is your lie, not a lie. Just because you do not agree with me does not make me or my "truth" a lie. I could share my truth with you all day and you would still not believe. Also, I in no way disregard intellectual honesty. I simply have the sense to admit that we are limited in our understanding of many things. Science and those like yourself (I gather from your post) pretend that you can be adamant about so much, but before man had the capability to see the make up of a simple snowflake the Bible proclaimed "Have you entered into the treasures of the snow? or have you seen the treasures of the hail?" Job 38:22 Their will remain a great dissonance between faith and what you call intellectual honesty. I am more than grateful for that- because if you count yourself amongst the first group it is you who are being dishonest. You claim honesty due to intellect, yet you call me a liar due to your ignorance of spiritual things. There is no honor in that either! Proclaiming that intellect is honesty is rather obtuse reasoning. Are you a slave to your so-called intellectual honesty? If you were as honest as you try to come across, you would admit that you cannot be certain that God does not exist. Lastly, I would rather be a slave knowingly than to be one and not have a clue as to my condition. We are all slaves to something (if that helps you understand my point better).
I'm not the ONLY one who disagrees with your "truth" Here are a few others that disagree with your outlandish assertions: REALITY. COMMON SENSE. SANITY...
But you go one step further than just admitting that we are limited in our understanding...when you assert that Goddunnit! That's dishonesty. Admit that you don't know...and be done with it.
Pathetic!
Since spiritual things are imaginary, you are the one being dishonest. One can't claim to know things that are unknowable, by misinterpreting a 2000 year old book of myths and fairy tales...without looking completely dishonest and absurd.
Which God?!!!
Yeah I get your point. The point is that indoctrination causes people to make all kinds of ridiculous assertions in order to desperately plead for the acceptance of their psychotic delusion.I can blatantly admit that I do not understand how the universe was created. It is scientists (not all) that peddle their theories as fact. A Christian says, "I believe the world was created by a loving creator" not "I know the world was created by a loving creator." But, common sense dictates that order comes from order versus the contrary (that order came from chaos). Absurdity is looking at the marvels of our universe and determining that it was (in all of its glorious order) a happenstance. That is like a child throwing Lincoln Logs on the floor and them landing as a beautiful, well-built log cabin versus landing in a simple pile made of logs. Spiritual things are not imaginary in my honest opinion. Are you not the one claiming to know the "unknowable" when you so adamantly deny even the possibility that God does exist? You deny that you have been indoctrinated yet, you call me dishonest and delusional. I am not pleading nor am I desperate for acceptance. With your name calling it is you who comes across desperate to prove something. History has proven that Book you call a fairy tale to be very accurate. As to which God Christians hold as such He has many names that highlight His character, but when Moses asked Him, "Who shall I say sent me?" He answered, "I AM, that I AM." On another note, I would rather be pathetic and right than pathetic and wrong when I come to the end of my life to find that there is indeed a God and He lovingly holds us accountable for our choices made in this journey we call life.
The intelligent design argument has been debated and debunked so many times, it's insane. I would suggest that you go to talkorigins.org if you want to see creationist claims and the scientific response. It seems like you don't really understand the scientific method works, nor do you understand the difference between a scientific theory and the common use of the word. Scientists do not assert anything with absolute certainty. They observe, test, repeat, etc. the "theory" of evolution is not what you think it is. Scientists, unlike theists, examine the evidence and if it is proven incorrect, they CHANGE THEIR MINDS. No matter how many apologists try to debunk evolution, they fail. Miserably. Repeatedly. If someone could disprove evolution, they would have a Nobel prize.
What history exactly are you claiming process the Bible accurate?You, obviously, don't care to really ascertain what comprises a scientific THEORY.
Yet you are here defending those BELIEFS as if they were facts. Secondly, you have no evidence, whatsoever, for your illogical beliefs. LOVING???!!! I guess Hurricane Sandy was a display of his LOVE!
So I should just pretend that a 2000 year old plagiarized book of ignorance is the logical default. Right? How stupefying!
Of course...then let's see your proof!
I never said I deny the possibility of the existence of a god. Please stop creating straw man fallacies.
Again, I never said that I was not indoctrinated. My father was a Pentecostal minister. I went to a public school that held devotion every morning. I went to church regularly, and I was SAVED at the age of 10. I LOVED GOD! You want to try that from another angle? I was not "indoctrinated" to be a non-believer. One sheds this nonsense after obtaining a conviction for intellectual honesty.
Now that is sheer desperation! And disturbingly DISHONEST!
So any other gods, such as Vishnu, Thor, Epona, Ra, Allah, etc., are imaginary, right?!
You are no better off than I am. Just suppose that when you die, you find out that The Amazon Jungle God is actually the real God. You could be in DEEP trouble trying to explain why you didn't believe in him.additionally (and how did I miss this the first time I read it) You are using the argument from incredulity as well as the argument from ignorance fallacies in your statements when you describe the universe.
Even if you used a debunked apologist claim like TAG to claim the necessity for god, you AT MOST can get someone to accept the possibility that a god may have existed - not which one. You can't simply jump from science to "therefore god". It's god of the gaps, as soon as there's something you don't know how to explain, god did it. The problem here is that "god" could be substituted with "magic" or "bigfoot" or the flying spaghetti monster. You cannot demonstrate the necessity for YOUR god. Period. Not to mention that TAG has been repeatedly debunked.
You also danced around Pascal's Wager towards the end, without actually saying it. But you're appealing to emotion, and all but saying "what if you're wrong". Well, what if YOU'RE wrong. There have been thousands and thousands of gods throughout history, but you don't worry about the consequences if one of THEM is the real god, and yours is imaginary."Who shall I say sent me?" He answered, "I AM, that I AM." A statement totally understood by all those who have experienced deep meditation, whether of a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or any other mystic persuasion. The "I Am," the pure center of our being, unchanging, infinite, and the fountain of all understanding and consciousness. Jesus himself is reported as speaking of this sublime awareness. In fact this was the essence of His message, time and time again.
Unfortunately the average person expounding christianity has skirted around it and denies its reality.
" I would rather be pathetic and right than pathetic and wrong when I come to the end of my life ...."
Sorry to disappoint you, but at the end of your life, there is Nothing! You will not be aware of whether you were "right" or "wrong," because there is no consciousness for the person calling him/herself Icimarik. "I Am" refers to existence, in the here and now, infinite because it cannot be measured, instantaneous and not extending anywhere, backwards, forwards, up or down, past or future.
In this moment, in meditation, you can find the True God, True Love, True Consciousness, One-ness with the Universe. There is no need for you to worry about anything after your death. Just concentrate, as much as you are able, on doing the right thing by everyone else who is living around you in this here and now. When that death comes you will have left it too late.
Only one eye needs to be opened.....The Inner One.Excellent points Jonny. I may be wrong, but I think Icimarik was referring to the Ressurection ( which is the core of the believers faith, at least mine) when he mentioned awareness after death. You are quite right, the dead are concious of nothing, no dead loved ones looking down or up, for that matter. Christians also fail to read Ex.3:15. The Name of the Father is clearly stated. From the original Hebrew Scriptures,(15) And Alahym said further to M'shah,"Thus you shall say to the children of Yashar'al, Yahuah Alahym of your fathers, the Alahym of Abraham, the Alahym of Yatsaq, and theAlahym Y'aqb, has sent me to you. This is my Name forever, and this is my remembrance to all generations". They ( Christians) read a book that has removed His Name 7,000 times and replaced it with "god" and "lord" etc., but they STILL (not shouting) do not understand the importance of His true Name. Having said this, I can truly appreciate the wisdom in your words.
somebody forgot to take their little pills
Excellent observation. Jesus told us that the world hates him and will hate those of us who follow. He said that we shouldn't be afraid of this.
Agreed - Christianity causes nothing but conflict. Any time you have people who refuse to learn because they have a majik voice telling them what to do - you are going to get conflicts. This is the real reason the religion causes so many fights. It is easy - say the majik words and you are a self righteous believer with god on your side. No wonder there have been so many religious wars.
See: History.the only war of religion that I can remember in the last 100 yrs. iraq and afgan,the rest was started by athist
yeah okay. Which wars are you claiming were started by "Atheists"?
Religion has existed for thousands of years in many competing forms. Why are you limiting it to 100 years? You're missing the best parts - like the crusades.christians did not start that war it was the muslims
oh really? So christians didn't go marching into jerusalem, killing every man, woman and child in their wake regardless of their own religion and dictating that killing a muslim wasn't murder - it was the will of god?
Once again, however, you asked about RELIGIOUS wars. You didn't dictate that it was only YOUR religion.
Also, you didn't answer my question. Which wars, exactly, were started by atheists?ww1 ww2 korea russian and china revalutions,but if you call atheist a religion than I guess you could call all wars,war of religion
Atheism is not a religion.
You get that Hitler was a self-proclaimed catholic, and that his extermination of the jews was "gods will" right?
ww1 was started due to nationalism, not atheism - and nationalism is ironically something that you find most common among rampant religious belief. In fact, nationalism can ALMOST (but not quite) be considered a religion in itself.
Russians were communists, and their revolution had nothing to do with atheism or religion - although Stalin was a theological seminary graduate (and I'm not claiming he started the revolution based on religious beliefs, or lack thereof - see, that's intellectual honesty).
I don't know much about Chinese history, and I can't comment one way or the other.I just dont like it when people try to reason with them-selfs why they will not beleive in God and falsey accuse God of being blood thristy,the reason the U.S.A is in the bad shape it is in now is because the church has set by and let the atheist in this country push God out of every part of public life and than cry foul when some one goes and kills a bunch of people and than says if theres a God how could he let this happen,when its our fault for standing by and letting people like you do it, O man I know lets take away everybodys guns just like hitler did so no one could stop him from coming by and start killing people who are not like him
you get that atheists are the most hated minority in this country right now, right? We're not taking over.
DO you know why organized, lead prayer was taken out of schools to begin with? It was to protect those of different religious beliefs - not to promote atheim, and publically lead prayer in schools was against the constitution of the country.
Say lead prayer was still allowed in public schools. Would you like your child to come home reciting a muslim prayer? How about a jewish one? How about a prayer to Zeus or Apollo. If you allow public/organized prayer in school, how do you choose which prayer to which god? By the particular beliefs of the teacher? What if the teacher is Islamic? Wouldn't it lead to prejudicial treatment of students, if several students agreed with the teacher's religious belief and others didn't?
You seem to have a bug up your rear about atheists. We're not doing anything wrong. We have a constitutional right to believe (or not believe) anything we choose. It's the religious right who is making laws that abide by their religion, which blatantly goes against the separation of church and state. If churches want to get involved in politics, then they should be taxed like the rest of us.
You seem to be fundamentally misinformed or mislead about atheism. Do you know many? I can't believe that you do, or a large majority of this superstitious nonsense would be gone by now.
All you need to do to know that god is a bloodthirsty god is to read the bible - especially the old testament. I can't believe you've actually read all of that either.Madeline Murray O'Hare was the instigator for taking prayer out of schools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O'Hair
O'Hair later founded American Atheists and became so controversial that in 1964 Life magazine referred to her as "the most hated woman in America".[Diane, it seems Madalyn Mays was killed for her beliefs. I would love to have met that woman.... so strong in her conviction and willing to stand up against bigotry in her time.
I wonder who was controlling Life Magazine in those years..... do you suppose it was a christian?
One could never accuse me of being cynical, of course! Umph!!
So, I look into Wikipedia, and what do we find?
"[Henry Robinson]Luce, known to his friends as "Father Time," was born in Tengchow, China, on April 3, 1898, the son of Elizabeth Middleton and Henry Winters Luce, who was a Presbyterian missionary. He received his education in various Chinese and English boarding schools including the China Inland Mission Chefoo School. He was sent to the U.S. at the age of 15 to attend the Hotchkiss School in Connecticut, followed by Yale College."
Therefore, Luce was not unbiased in what he allowed to be published in Life Magazine. He also had to sell that magazine to an American public that wanted things to be religiously correct, otherwise the publication would have gone broke, wouldn't it?
All I am really saying is, be careful when you read something, look to the background of the author. As anyone can do for my postings here..... I am open with my background, so anyone can draw their own conclusions. I note that some of the christian zealots who post here are very reluctant to disclose their background info. So I do not trust them!Madeline Murray O'Hare happened to be an Atheist, she could just as well have been a Jew trying to no have Christian prayers sited my her Jewish Children.
The very fact that she was call "the most hated woman in America" is an indication of just how indoctrinated North America was and is. Atheist as still thought by many to be followers of Satan. That's the eruption that she caused. She was many times on Donahue, you should youtube her.that's true - but again, what does that have to do with the conversation?
She didn't take prayer out of schools because she was an atheist. She did it to protect the religious freedom of all students - not just christians. She was also gunned down and killed with her son and grand-daughter.
I would also like to add - there is still prayer in school. Students are welcome to pray any prayer to any god they'd like. There is just not prayer that is organized or lead by the faculty.I read a biography of Madeline Murray O'Hare, written by her son who became a Christian. There was nothing whatsoever about concern for religious freedom. The woman was a real kook! As I remember, she was a one-woman army on the case. I don't remember any group involvement.
that would be mistaken - and written with a bias. You and I have discussed bias before.
Technically speaking, she had nothing to do with prayer in schools. that was abolished a year before her landmark lawsuit against the Baltimore County School system where she said that it was against the constitution of the country to require students to participate actively in bible readings within the public school system - and to be discriminated against when they didn't want to be involved. The removal of prayer from the public school system was in Engel Vs. Vitale:
The case was brought by the families of public school students in New Hyde Park, New York who complained that the voluntary prayer to "Almighty God" contradicted their religious beliefs. They were supported by groups opposed to the school prayer including rabbinical organizations, Ethical Culture, and Judaic organizations. The prayer in question was:
Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen.
The plaintiffs argued that opening the school day with such a prayer violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution (as applied to the states through the Fourteenth), which says in part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". The governments of twenty-two states signed on to an amicus curiae brief urging affirmation of the New York Court of Appeals decision that upheld the constitutionality of the prayer.[1] The American Ethical Union, the American Jewish Committee, and the Synagogue Council of America each submitted briefs urging the Court to instead reverse and rule that the prayer was unconstitutional.
All that aside, the fact that you call her a "kook" just speaks to your own bias. She had views that you don't agree with, just like she would have disagreed with some of yours, but I don't see that as a justification for labeling her, judging her or name-calling. the fact of the matter is that this country is not a "christian" country. It was founded on secular principles which were upheld in the treaty of tripoli, which stated: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims),—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
She stood for the separation of church and state, and so do I - and I'm a current member of the American Atheists. I guess you'd call me a "kook" too. But I'm the one that's harassing you, right?My reference to her as a "kook" had nothing to do with being an atheist. She was not a nice lady. We've had the discussion about atheists being moral. I know many non-Christians who have a high moral standard.
Not a nice lady? And you got that from her converted sons' account of her - which is biased, slanted and a little insane.
If you have heard good stuff, I'm open to hear it. Her son didn't write info for wikipedia. Here's a blurb:
Speculation abounded on the cause and meaning of O'Hair's disappearance.[20] Some hypothesized that the O'Hairs had abandoned American Atheists and fled with the money. One investigator working for Vanity Fair, after looking at evidence presented to him by former employee David Roland Waters, concluded that they had escaped to New Zealand.[9]
I don't like to use wikipedia when I can come up with an authoritative source but what's on wikipedia is consistent with what is in her biography. The biographer includes a lot more day to day detail.
Since it looks like she double crossed American Atheists, which she founded, I don't think they would be inclined to write a glowing article on her.In January 2001, Waters informed the police that the O'Hairs were buried on a Texas ranch, and he subsequently led them to the bodies.[9][19] When the police excavated there, they discovered that the O'Hairs' bodies had been cut into dozens of pieces with a saw. The remains exhibited such extensive mutilation and successive decomposition that identification had to be made through dental records, by DNA testing and, in Madalyn O'Hair's case, by the serial number of her prosthetic hip.[25] The head and hands of Danny Fry were also found at the site.
Just a little lower in the article, that you seem to have missed.No I didn't miss it. We were discussing whether or not she was a "kook." It sould like she/they really ticked someone off to chop them up in little pieces. Not that I know a lot but after watching a lot of crime shows I can say "This is a crime of passion."
Anyone can tick someone off until they do something drastic. that doesn't mean that they're "kooks". it means that people are greedy and they do horrible things to each other. It's hardly anything new.
I'd be more inclined to say that the person who kidnapped, mutilated and massacred her and her family is the "kook". Not immediately blame the victim
With all due respect Diane, the info you pasted from wiki gives us nothing about her personality. Only speculation of her where a bouts. You should have read a little farther down.
David, for your information, I don't "try" to reason with "god." I do state that no such god exists, except in the minds of those who wish to imagine one.
You have your imagined "god" in your mind. That is your right to so believe, .... it's your free choice.
However, it's not reasonable of you to ask me to accept what you believe, when I do not even accept the existence of a god. I am talking about a judgmental god here; the sort of god who apparently sits up on high somewhere, watching my every move, my ever thought, and who is going to punish me for not accepting unintelligent dribble based upon nothing less than human interpretations of ancient documents.
I do not need such a theoretical entity in my life. I do not put my self up for judgement by such a tyrant. There are much bigger tyrants in this world, motivated by desire for power and control over fellow humans. I stand up against those who would monitor my mind like the "Big Brother."
We all thought that "Big Brother" was referring to the USSR at the time of publication......yet, low and behold! He resides in the right-wing, control freaks of the fundamentalist churches.
They seem to have you right under their thumbs.
I do accept that there is some kind of "creating" force or influence that has contrived and constructed this beautiful finite world, of which I am conscious and able to experience. I stand in absolute awe of that force, yet I cannot know its nature. I just love it.
From what I understand about the crusades, Catholics were involved. While Catholicism is conidered Christian because of belief in the birth, death and resturrection of Christ, there is no individual decision made to become a Christian. It is all about being a Catholic. Christian crusades should possibly be called Catholic crusades.
we were talking about "religious" wars, not specifically the protestant version of christianity.
With the exception of the Eastern Orthodox church in the East and the Gnostics, aside from Catholicism, what christianity would there be? How do you think the reformation would be possible, if it were not for the catholics carrying on the religion for 1500 years? Who do you think preserved, copied and translated the scriptures?
The fact of the matter is, without catholocism christianity would probably not exist today. Christians like to separate themselves from their catholic siblings due to their history, but the true separation is not done as easily as it is claimed.in china and russia alone over 130 million of there own people and not counting korea,veitnam{no religion at all}
and which wars have china and russia had in 100 years that were begun because of an atheist?
You're missing the point. Do you honestly think that the entire population of china and russia is made up of atheists? Just because a government is a secular one does not mean that the country is devoid of religion as a whole. The United States is a secular country, for example, yet 80% of the people in it have a religious belief. The government is not religious, but its people are.
You're moving the goalposts. You said that, aside from afghanistan and iraq, there have been no religious wars in 100 years. Now you're moving on to the fact that there are secular countries that do "bad" things. It's not the same thing.china and japan,russia and germany,north and south korea
now you're just listing countries - not wars.
Your original question was what wars have been religious - and then you asserted (incorrectly) that atheists started almost all of the wars in the last century. You seem to be unable to prove your point, and that's why we've moved on to just naming secular countries.
How many wars has Denmark or Sweden started? They're among the largest majority of atheists in the population - yet they seem to steer clear of wars altogether.
The separation was done because of disagreement. Throughout history people have taken a stand against what they felt was wrong. We are seeing that to a smaller degree in the House of Representatives Republican leadership. Children often take a stand against their parents. Many of my Caucasian and Hispanic students have talked about the racist views and attitudes of their parents.
I agree with everything you said. I don't know what it has to do with the rest of the conversation, though.
Would you agree Hitler started WW2? If so, Hitler was a documented Christian hell bent of punishing the Jews for what they did to Jesus.
Sir, it was our sin who crucified Jesus,
Don't be ridiculous, "Our" we had nothing to do with the death of Jesus. If it did happen it was more than 2000 years ago.
Rad Man, this is amazing! 3662 posts and it's still going strong! "Never before, in human history, has to much drivel been spoken by so many born-agains to so many disbelievers."
Can't believe I am seeing this!Johnny, the magnitude of the posts I found quite surprising. However, there are a lot of repeat sentences. I mean you only have a few arguments and the truth holds its own with just a few too. So, it has been a continuous circle of, "I know you are, but what am I? Maaajik???"
And . . . on it goes, until the Lord comes back!
No, no. That heaven and that new life, and that eternity that you dream of is right here and now..... nothing to look forward to after your death. That will be the end of it for you and for me. So live the life now, you only have one chance.
That person you call "Lord" spoke about it. He was enlightened in the understanding of truth; that Truth which has passed you by and left you deceived. As an enlightened person he could not, would not, have declared himself above everything and everyone. He would not have declared himself one with a god that was separate and superior. He would have spoken of his one-ness with all the world, in the company of you and me, as the servant to everything that is true. Not the silly, nonsensical religion that you follow and preach.
From what we know, if anything of the New Testament is to believed, he lived and worked amongst the lowly, the poor, the rejected and lost. Those who shuffled around on their hands and knees, looking dirty and despised. Those who found no one else to give them respect and support. Why? Because he faced the world of the Here and Now. And he declared that it was easier for a camel to spit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter this Heaven of Here and Now.
You narrow-minded gospelites have misconstrued everything that he said and he would be appalled (and saddened) at the way you have mis-interpreted what he had to say.
I am not a christian, but I have so much respect for that man that supposedly walked the earth in Palestine.I feel sorry for you..... mis-informed, mistaken, missed the plot. And afraid to look any further because you might have to change your mind.
People have got at you with so much make-believe, you cannot let go.
Unless, of course, the others responding in this forum are much more knowledgeable than myself, and that you are a just a total sham. I don't know, so will go to bed now and rest. Life is a lot more than this particular Forum, I am glad to say.Beautiful! I was starting to worry about you. Fresh air does one good
I have to look no further. There is no truth truer to me. Please save your sorrow for the starving children, I am fine. Thanks I guess all those "mis"es made me miss your point again, I guess. Do you not have any MORE intellectual conversations to join?
This post reminds me of a statement that Jesus made,
A little levin spoils the barrel of flour.
OR how much Un-Truth added to a truthful story renders the story valueless.
Or something like that??but the question becomes "can you prove that the story was true to begin with". If it comes to biblical teachings about/from jesus, the answer is no. You can't. You hope for it to be true. You want it to be true. You believe it to be true - but you can't prove it.
What you say in this post holds some truth no matter what the subject matter, or to whom you speak.
I do not understand many concepts on many different subjects; that in my heart I know is true. We all believe something which we can not prove. I will leave you to yours and I'll keep mine.If you sit back and pull out your honesty, you will realize that you believe quite a few things you can't prove. Things become too rigid when we attempt to believe that we may "know" everything. God has secrets known to no man. You don't even know if you will live beyond the next 30 min.
When I look at things in that light, I am humbled by all the other possibilities. I anchor myself in God; to me, he is the only "solid"...go figure.Why don't you tell me what I believe in that I can't prove, since you're so certain. Ask god to tell you if you're uncertain.
Wow J., More vaudvillian techniques to see my father? He may never do "it" for you. You must FIRST believe that he is. And that he is a rewarder of they that diligently seek him.
Your intelligence far outweighs semantics.
Uh, did you tell us what YOU believe in???
No Vaudville J. No matter how many different ways you request it.
Our God just does not work that way. You can tell me what you believe. Wouldn't that be easier??? Maybe not...
Nevertheless, he will soon reveal it to me, I'm sure, lets wait on it. So. Tell me what you think you believe.
PleaseWhat do you mean? What I believe about what? Beliefs are different from faith and from trust.
Ok, then it should be easy. Do not be afraid that I will poke a huge hole in YOUR theory of the "unprovable" ultimates. I will be nice
see??? I will show you your faith, Sir.
Do not be afraid.I do not have any faith. I trust however that at some point you WILL stop calling me sir, since I'm a girl and all.
That's a belief.. you cannot prove that it will happen... LOL I had to do it...LOL
Lol I am hopeful that it will happen, and I TRUST that, once it is pointed out for the third time that it will actually sink in. That trust could be unfounded, and I could be wrong. It still isn't faith :-)
Depends on the context. Contextually the two are synonymous
not really. Not if faith, according to the bible is "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1. Trust is based on prior experience, knowledge and understanding. I trust that my wife will be faithful to me because she always has been. She acts in a manner consistent with that trust.
I trust that my Father will be faithful because He always has been. He acts in a manner consistent with that trust. Based on prior experience, knowledge, and understanding
and how can you demonstrate that trust in something you cannot see, prove, experience or interact with?
Oh he sees, experiences, and interacts with this imaginary entity. It's very real, UNTIL he is asked to prove it. Then the anger comes because of the cognitive dissonance....that has to be assuaged.
Delusion remains intact...Getitrite, you need to stop it with the psychological terms. You still have not explained why you waste so much time on "Pinocchio" What the heck to YOU believe in???
He probably baulks at that expression "believe in." I do, to. Within that expression is all that christian people accept.
I prefer to say "I accept this, or that....." or I "don't accept this or that." I refuse to be drawn into the christian desire to dominate the beliefs of others. Christian people are free to accept whatever they wish.Fair. I know that this conversation has been filled with silence about the perspective of the "opposing" view. Thanks. I have the idea that belief is a frightening term for you. Since you have been impregnated by "truth" from birth, it is necessary to "not" believe anything to put in its place.
I am not here to force belief in anything. My purpose for this conversation is to find out what it is you do have faith in. Now, I know too that the word faith might be a bit too "churchy" for you so we have condensed to calling it belief. Now, you are mad about that? So, belief in nothing is actually our conclusion?Yes, "belief" as used in the christian forums IS frightening to me. Why? Because your beliefs can be, and often are, used to judge people like me. Such beliefs have, throughout history, been used to subdue and suppress peoples. Beliefs have provided those who would dominate, a tool with which to condemn groups of people to prison, to the gallows, to humiliation, to excommunication, to banishment from the community. It's so convenient for the person with the belief to say to anyone who disagrees, "You need the Holy Ghost in order for you to understand." There is no valid argument against this, because the unseen, the unreal, the imagined "spirit" cannot be proven. This puts the believer on the side of "righteousness," but only for the safety of the believer.
All your replies to me, and to others in this forum, have given us the impression that you, cgenaea, are on the right side, that you know what is good for us, in terms of your religious beliefs.
If I had a sense that you were open to new information, open to possibilities that you are not totally in possession of all the facts, and that some things you believe might turn out to be wrong..... just open to the possibilities..... then I would be warmer to your points of view.
On numerous occasions, when discussing with others who have similarly strong religious points of view, I have said clearly that I respect passionate beliefs and understandings, provided I am given like respect and tolerance by the religious person. That does happen! There are some very worthy people here who really do open up to other points of view. We develop enormous mutual respect. I don't have such respect for you yet. Keep trying if you will.U know me. I don't need your approval to be me and have my point of view.
I ask and because I am convinced of my position and you, not so much, you kick and scream bloody murder. Well so what, Jonny! I still believe as I do. No problem if you have a problem believing anything. That does not phase, nor affect me. I don't need anger or irritation for this conversation. Only bible, and a little sense. (Ok, I admit "Emile," that my brain may be a little slower than yours. But I do have one )But it is affecting you You are angry and bitter, it shows in your response! So, where is that anger and bitterness coming from? Not from what I and others write here.
Much more likely it's coming from inside of your mind. You feel threatened, when really there is no threat. Unless the threat is that you might need to open you mind a little more and allow some fresh air into it.Please provide an example of my "anger" and/or bitterness. Yes, evidence.
Anger? Why should I be angry? Who are you that I owe proof of anything? Do I know you personally? You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want. You seem to have problem with that. What is proof to me is proof enough for me. I'm the only one I have to prove anything too
Not one time, have you been verbally assaulted. Instead, you assault. But you don't know. Maybe you are auto-piloted. Maybe you are...
think Pinocchio...How is it an assault to ask someone for evidence of there assertions. He merely suggested anger would soon appear as it did with the "who are you to me, nobody..." stuff. It's been my experience that when pressed for evidence for miracles the response is either anger or the subject is changed. Which this was just another example. Ask someone who say they have direct dialogue with God to ask God to supply evidence of information about me so I can confirm it not just the person having dialogue with there own mind, and they disappear every time or I get "God doesn't work that way" when they just told me it does work that way.
How can you ask for anything from one you do not believe exists??? While you ponder that, let me explain that I am not the type of person who would claim you are "no one" to me. You have a great deal of value to the one I believe in.
It is not an assault to ask me for evidence of my assertions. The assault comes after I give explanation of what has been "evident" for me. Have you not been listening?
Evidence is relative, in our situation. What is "evidence" to me is "hogwash" to you, and vice versa. Actually, I have NO evidence of what you believe. It seems that you are misled about who "disappears" when pressed. But I am patient.It's not evidence of any kind if it only happens in your mind. For instance, some claim to have conversation with God, but when pressed that God can't provide any information that the individual doesn't already have. There is a perfectly sound explanation for that, they are not talking with God, simply with themselves. Surely an all knowing God could provide evidence of his existence if he wanted me to believe his existence is in fact real. They change the subject or go away, they never expect anyone to call them on it, wether they know they are lying or not.
How many televangelists after getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar, cry and say they spoke with God and God want us to forgive him. BS. They want us to forgive them.Have you ever had the exact same dream from start to finish for three nights in a row??? Have you ever had a dream about something nearly impossible, and it occurred two years later? Have you ever been given a word on the inside of you and then heard that same statement repeated by many others from many different areas and many walks of life over the course of many years??? Have you ever been told to do something spiritual like pray for someone, and then receive the exact same unrelated and seemingly impossible gift that you were promised, after you did it? All these things have happened to me among many other seeming impossibilities that just don't happen to "realistic" individuals. I am convinced. I was being sent home from the emergency room following many tests for my ailment. I was vomitting repeatedly. The doctors did not know why. So they gave me a pill to settle my stomach. As I got dressed, I vomited the pill that was supposed to keep THAT from happening. Then I was told to undress again and I was sent for an ultrasound. I was 15. They saw a ruptured appendix and rushed me into surgery.
To me, these experiences are supernatural. From God. To you, chance???Wonderful points! I have had many experiences like this... God deals with me repetitively like this too, I believe 'cause I am too thick to get things the first time.
Yes, once you open to his prompting of come unto me... He reminds you over and over just why you did.
he never leaves me hanging. But first you must believe that he exists. Faith the size of a mustard seed to ask him in the first place. The statement, "I know you don't exist Lord, so you gotta prove it to me that you do so I can believe." Does not fly. If you don't believe, you will never believe. You must believe enough to ask for proof.
When you ask for proof without belief, you beat a dead horse. For when you get "proof", you give the "glory" to chance occurrence. You don't even believe it was he who performed. Therefore, God is still obscure. You got your "proof" but you denied the reality of the prover.
Thanks for your comment!!!
But how do you know that any of that is god? Even more curious, how do you know which god?
Ha-ha!!!
did you see you give Gods glory away??? It is God, no one else can control your dreams, not even you. I know my God. I know how he performs. I know what he WILL do because he tells me first most often. Then he does it, marvelously and supernaturally, let me add. I know my God personally. He does speak. You just need to listen.That avoids both questions entirely. I want to know how you know who should get the glory in the first place. If you're not honest enough to answer, there's no point in talking to you.
J, you refuse to hear my responses to you. I agree, no point.
But that's just it. You DIDN'T respond. All you said was "I know its my god because I said so". That's not an answer. That's toddler logic, and I don't think you would accept it from anyone else.
That was not my response. Toddler logic would state "You didn't answer me" when the answer is not like able. Remember??? I know my God personally. He reveals his plans often. That means, things that have not yet happened. I'm no future teller. But my God is.
Funny, you came up with a made-up response from me. You a liar???Lol no, no I'm not. I would not, however, expect someone like you to believe me.
How do you know your god is a future teller?Because he tells me my future. You can deny making up a response that I gave; but false witness is a no-no. Though you do not care, it is wrong.
I didn't make up your response. I rephrased it. Kind of like what you're doing now. Are YOU therefore a liar, since you're doing the exact same thing?
You are kind of funny. I think that this has been a thrilling ride. I must commend you on your persistence. You are so familiar to me. It is like we have met before. In a different time.
I am however, unmoved. You CANNOT convince me that my Lord is "me" I have too much experience. My life from a very young age has been my evidence. If you would like to hear more of that, I got'chu. But if it is your intent to "break" me, your time would be better spent with like-minded individuals. My question was answered by you long ago. Thanks...
Big deal, I can predict the lottery, I've done it twice and supplied evidence. Can you?
No, Rad man, no lottery predictions. I mean life. You keep trying to make me deal with numbers. I hate math man! Maybe a bit too precise. I never could get all those steps at the same time. But so??? Life is different than ping pong balls in a drum. Right?
No, you can ether predict the future or you can not. I did and supplied evidence, can you?
Funny, and quite tantrum-ee. No, I cannot predict the future. But God can.
You just said you could, but when asked you can't. But God can...
Not entirely different. Theoretically, the lottery is chosen at random by the ping pong balls rolling around and around until one number pops up. The odds of the specific number coming up is dependent on the rotation, number of balls in the drum, and how many balls have that specific number in the drum. There are some things that can be manipulated to suit a specific outcome, but for the things that cannot be manipulated, you are left to chance, or fate, or God's will (for those who believe).
Life operates pretty much the same way. we can do as much as we can to manipulate certain situations to reach whatever outcome that we desire for ourselves and others, but there are some things that are simply outside of our control. So if our predictions are correct for something that is supposed to be random, How can we possibly know for sure whether it was just a random occurence or if it is the will of God?Faith. I cannot explain it any better than I have. Sorry...
But You (a believer) stated you had several dreams and that you were able to predict the outcome of a woman's pregnancy and it was faith and God that did it (but no concrete proof).. Rad (an atheist) states that he predicted the lottery and can supply evidence and it can't possibly be true or it's "different"?
HMMMMHey! I said that God showed me my daughter in a dream 2years b4 she was born. He showed me her father too. I cannot predict anything. At times, The Lord shows me MY future. The other dream was prophetic as well. But I am not one who can direct my dreams. I hardly ever dream at all. Rad is gonna call me with that Powerball number. I am tired of being poor.
Rad, do me right, now!!! Babyneedanewpairashoes!!!It's always easy to say you predicted the future after it has happened. Try predicting the future before the future happens. Tell us something that will happen next week, but tell us now.
on Monday, you will be here trying to convince me that God is not real.
CGenaea, let me tell you a story and see if it sounds familiar. Actually, I'll do one better and tell you 2.
1)
--born of the virgin around December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris" Lazarus in latin), from the dead.
--walked on water.
--He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of."
--transfigured on the Mount.
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," "the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
--He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
--He came to fulfill the Law.
--called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
2)
--born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
-- followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
-- sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," [Word] "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
--His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," t.
--had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which he said, "He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
Do either of these stories ring a bell with you?Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Life. no man comes unto the father but by him, yes???
except neither of these stories are about Jesus - and they predate him by hundreds of years and had their own followers in the process. Jesus is hardly unique.
Jesus did not say he was "God."..... the words as we have written in that book were "I AM" the way, the truth and the life.
"I AM" is understood to be this moment, this here-and-now, the infinite Present. It is understood by all the great teachers and sages the world has ever known. That man Jesus of course, if we believe what is written in that book, was also a great teacher who knew the deep truth of "I AM."
All meditation seeks the ultimate awareness of this Truth. And that awareness is available to each and every one of us. It is obtained via inner searching not religious practice. You can have a religious conviction in what ever way you choose. It can be christian, or muslim, or buddhist, or a devotion to any one of the god-like manifestations found in Hinduism, etc., etc. It is not necessary for you to discard your faith. The meditation can even enhance your religion, but meditation remains something of itself, standing apart from the religion.
The "I AM" is that Love which your read about in Corinthians. It is never selfish and cannot be. It's union with and total integration with the One-Ness of the Universe.... pure Consciousness.I AM is also the name of God that He gave to Moses in the Desert, the first time that God had ever self-identified by name. That was why the guards at the Sanhedrin fell back when he said, "Before Moses was, I am!" instead of tearing into Him for earthly blasphemy.
Ok. That is a good explanation of Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the life. He IS everything to me, along with my father. Without the sacrifice of Jesus. I would not be here. I have a lot of love and respect for him.
Religion and ritual is silly to me. I have no need or desire for it. So many ritualize and ritualize and Jesus is far from their hearts. They like their fishnet stockngs and their new bibles for everyone to see. They Lord over their "riches" while the rest of the congregation starves. Church, you can have it. Religion, I don't want it. The Lord, however; I cannot live without him.Jonny, I understand you don't believe the bible, don't believe in God, or any god...but to say Jesus didn't claim to be God betrays a lack of knowledge of scripture. The diety of Jesus is well established in the bible, both old and new testament. On more than one occasion the Jews wanted to kill Jesus specifically because He made it clear to them that He and God were one, which for anyone but God would be blasphemy. Jesus also claimed His diety by His actions, accepting worship and forgiving sins, both of which were only for God to do.
Well, not exactly. God and Jesus are one in spirit, idea, initiative, love, light, truth. They are two seperate entities. Jesus also stated many times his father, not himself. Jesus said, no man knows the day nor hour that he will return, save the father alone. Jesus made it clear that he was not doing his own work, but the father who sent him.
So, to be clear then, you do not believe in the diety of Christ?
Sir, these statements are so simplistic that anything else you say cannot be taken seriously.
"...don't believe the bible..." when it is a collection of writings so vast and complex, with metaphor, history, stories, myths being the main subjects throughout, how come the idea of "believing in it?"
"...don't believe in God..." ---- not exactly! Specifically, I do not accept the concept, a human concept, of there existing a judgmental god, a sort of school master, or strict and punishing father, who constantly watches my every move and who will determine whether I can or will enter some theoretical after life. This is the entity from which all the fear and threat embedded in your religion comes. It comes from your desire to control, and I reject it totally.
"...or any god..." ---- Drop the word "god." It again is a human concept and serves no useful purpose for me, although there are many who seem to need such an acceptance.
When I read your Profile here in HubPages, it is clear that you do not want dissension. You want others to accept that you have "gone through the mill" of searching and come up with your own ideas about god. So your whole comment is biased towards your christianity.
The possibility of some kind of creating consciousness or designer or creator? Yes, I am open to this..... it gives me no end of inspiration, awe and wonder.
You should get a standard textbook on Odds and Probabilities. You'd be surprise at how chance works, and how the odds of some things that you consider improbable are more probable than you think. Unlike your beliefs, math does not lie. You have not even looked at anything else except "Goddunit" I'm hoping that you can think on a level way beyond this uber-shallow level. This is only convincing to the hopelessly indoctrinated.
You stick with "chance". I cannot leave my walk through this life to chance. I know what works for me. And still... You don't.
There is just a chance, (a slim one at that), you will see some kind of sense and reason on your walk through make-believe. But then again, it is your choice, right?
Yes, so what. They're dreams. Your subconscious dealing with something.
deja vu happen and is a misfiring in the brain, making you think it's happened before, next time it happens remember that and it makes much more sense.
I had my appendix taken out when I was twelve as well. I had a pain in my chest so my Dad took me the ER. They said I just made it. One month later I had the same pain and when I explained the pain to my Dad he told me it was heart burn. So what. This is what people alive say, my kids teacher died yesterday of a heart attack. A praying Christian, coach and guidance counsellor with a wife and a few kids. Those alive are the ones who make those claims, the dead ones can't.
No not chance, but all are explainable.Back to pushing buttons? I am starting to remember the way you worked.
You are DEFINITELY a button pusher. Mine, don't work for you. I'm cool, calm, collected, and convinced of my position. You resort to other stuff like, my ideas are absurd. I can handle it. You get sensitive.
you strike, and strike. But to see me unphased is upsetting to you. Relax. God's "got this".
Before making that claim, you must deconstruct his argument. Sorry, but that's the way it works.
Pointing out the absurdity of an absurd statement is now verbal assault huh? Just how special do you think these worthless fraudulent beliefs are?
Absurdity too is a relative term. How can you say that my opinion is any less valid than yours? Could it have something to do with a superiority thing??? Are you "more smarter"? I am sure you laugh at my use of smarter in that sentence, but I can handle flack about my grammar too.
Your opinion lacks any semblance of validity at all. Reality often validates itself. I would hate to think that my world view was on par with adults who, basically, believe in magic and Santa Claus.
My life to an extent is a personal matter. The ridicule, snide remarks, and cartoons, I expect. There are moments in my life, I am not willing to discuss right now in a public forum. Privately, some may be welcome. I don't know you. We have built no trust. I don't say this sarcastically. You're asking me to take you somewhere where only the lifelong associates ( they just happened to be there) and dearest people in my life have been. Granted, if you were a believer, for the esteem of the Father, call me, lets talk. But for someone who has shown nothing but a distaining, demeaning, disrespectful (Chris, give me a word
... I'm a good sport. Try this on for size. I KNOW there must be faith healing. Modern medicine has about a 20% healing rate. The witch doctor is at 20% also and he takes on all comers. Chemo here in America, has a survival rate after 5 yrs. (if you get that far) of about 2.1%, for stage 4, less than half of 1%, with surgery and radiation a little more or a little less. Fundamentally these rarely work. Worse, some drug treatments also promote the spread of cancer. The third leading killer in America, hospitals and doctors. Please Father, they know not what they do. It takes a lot of faith and a lot of prayer to get out of there alive I won't be back until tomorrow night, chill, it's my Shabbat. ShalumLast year, there was a woman who testified, no a man. He testified about God healing a cancer. He was so ridiculed. He was called a liar. All kinds of "evidence" was presented to state what doctors or simply time has done for some. Then put-downs for assuming to be in a superior position than those who died. Faith is not going to be accepted. Now how, no way; by many.
Show me who and where and when? I'd love to see the evidence.
Yea, you just can't see evidence of MY faith. Though I know that you guys are totally equipped with evidence of all that you believe. But I am sure you have opinions about the unknown.
I would not tell me either, if I were any one of you.Cgenaea, you spend so much time here trying to defend your faith, that I am surprised you are not "out there" in the community, acting out your faith.
Your need to defend says something about the tenacity and strength of your faith. Maybe all you are doing is trying to convince yourself of your faith.
No wonder you are a bit neurotic over all of this.Oh Jonny am convinced already. Don't you hear the way i speak??? I am not trying to convince you of anything. I have my convince and that is all I need. Can you ok the authority of my life to me. I believe me. I believe the Lord. Who do you believe???
The tenacity of my faith is strong. Jonny, please explain why you believe that I am Neurotic? I am convinced of my faith. You call it neuroticism???
the 930+ followers of Jim Jones who poisoned themselves out of faith to him were all convinced that he was the second coming of jesus - so much so that they were willing to die for it. They claimed that he cured cancer, multiplied food and healed them. What would you call their faith?
(to play devil's advocate) why do you think their faith was misplaced? They saw miracles with their own eyes. They met the person that they followed. They knew without doubt that he existed. They had much more concrete evidence than a 2000 year old book, after all.
What specific evidence did they have regarding the miracles that they saw? Just like David Koresh. It was a man that offered hope to the hopeless then capitalized on their need.....Yes, This sounds familiar...lol..
I'm waiting on what I know is comingyou had a person, live on camera claiming that Jim Jones cured them of cancer. You had others relaying a story that they had first-hand of Jim realizing that they were about to run out of food - he then blessed the food (and referenced the New Testament as he did it) and there was suddenly enough food to feed everyone - and you had the testimony of people who witnessed it first-hand, not third, fourth or fifth hand, centuries later. That was enough for them to die for him.
You also have people who are willing to fly planes into buildings or blow themselves up for their faith. Being willing to die for something doesn't make it true - these people already had their convince. :-)
Those people had their faith in Jim. Man is fallible.
I demonstrate that trust by my attitude and actions. To Him, it will show I appreciate His love, mercy and understanding. To you, you may be on the receiving end, from me, what I received from Him. Am I always successful from my end...I try
Why do I have trust in Him? That's easy. I have experienced, seen, interacted with Him. He has proven Himself to ME (and as you can see from these forums, to others) and that's all He has to do, prove Himself to me. Will you accept my experiences as proof? I doubt it. Anyway, why should I have to prove Him to you? You can do that yourself I've asked (some really tight spots) and have received. I've knocked (no where else to go) and the door was opened.
that is incredibly vague. How about some specifics.
You are increditably nosey. Specifics, in due time. I don't have that trust in you yet
if I told you that a leprechaun was trustworthy because he has fulfilled my needs and been there for me when I need him because I talk to him daily, would you believe me?
I would.. Remember, your purple dragon poops leprechauns!!
The luck of the Irish. If it would help you through your day...why not?
Wow, good thought. One must find proof for themselves.
See, you have to have faith of it all since we are talking spiritual. God is there for us all. Most of us choose to look the other way because he does not come over for cards and coffee. However, interaction is possible daily. I know that too.
if god is solely spiritual and not discernible in the natural world, how do you interact with it - and how do you know with certainty what it is that you are interacting with?
you have "confidence" in your hope. And you have assurance of the unseen right here. Faith in your wife. However, there is no problem with calling it trust. I trust God. Some call it faith.
faith is believing in something without discernible evidence. If you TRUST god and not have faith in him, then you have evidence - but unless that evidence is demonstrable and falsifiable then it does not qualify as "evidence" that would be sufficient to convince anyone other than you. then you run into the problem of redefining evidence to suit what you think you have, and not evidence for what it actually means - at least in scientific terms.
I am so sorry J. Please forgive. When I look at your name, I always see JM which leads me to Jim. Please forgive me.
So, ok, you do not have faith. So please tell me, are you of the belief that what you "see" is what you get??? No ultimate truth...I think ultimate truth is primarily unknowable because our "knowledge" is limited by our perceptions, our hopes and our biases. A lot of children "know" that santa clause is real because they get presents on christmas morning. As they mature and grow up, they realize that santa isn't real. Yet back when they were younger, they knew it to be true. They were told it was true. What we KNOW to be true changes as we learn more, understand more and see more.
LALALALALALA I'm not listening!! Santa is real!! I've seen him
THAT's why he didn't turn up at my home this year! He was over visiting you, Deepes.
- And he IS everywhere on Christmas. He's in every major mall and grocery store everywhere, at the same time!!!
They're coming back, they are seeking ,they are hungry, they want what there is available , however they expressing their desire to be fully satisfied somehow from the " opposite " direction .
I don't think anyone is trying to take away your right to be indoctrinated or that you're unable to think for yourself, but that doesn't mean you're speaking about things as you see them, you aren't, you've been indoctrinated to speak that way.
Uh, those reasons have been presented to you ad nauseum throughout your posting history here. How soon they forget.
So that one day you might understand the indoctrination that has enslaved you. With many posts here, responses to your posts may be for the benefit of others who read them, considering those who respond may very well know you can't be convinced of anything beyond your belief system, that no amount of facts or evidence would ever change your mind.
Yes, we know. So, don't be so surprised or shocked at more of the same.And you are the loudest.
We are not taken-aback by your rantings You are the one who flinches I am totally different from the way I was indoctrinated. Remember??? I have searched for what I consider the true messages. They often do not agree with the lies ai was told as a kid. But, the children (answered many times and denied) and indoctrination (answered many times and denied) are your strongpoints. Your ONLY strongpoints. That is why you cling to that. Stable? I don't think so, but you can stand right there for the rest of your days. I, on the other hand, will stand right here. God is good. He cares for 10cent birds we don't.No wonder A Troubled Man is troubled he has been as indoctrinated as claims you are just with an alternate opinion on religion.
Sorry, but I don't speak gibberish, could you please translate that into English?
Happiness comes from within and should be proactive daily practice.
I said you are as indoctrinated in your opinion as you say genaea is in Christianity. You are saying nothing Christians haven't heard for years, yet we still believe.
There are several things going on here.
Firstly, you said "because I believe in Jesus as the savior, I speak of it often."
Then you said: "I am not the ultra pushy evangelizer who will visit you at your home uninvited"
You don't have to be "ultra-pushy" to stimulate controversy. You certainly have the right to share your beliefs in a public forum, but others also have the right to challenge them.
If you don't want to open yourself to a challenge, follow the lead of the Amish or the Orthodox Jews--they don't speak publicly of their beliefs at all, and nobody cares.
Second, on this:
"I am convinced of my position. Are you not convinced of yours?"
One does not have to be tormented with an inner self-doubt to challenge someone they disagree with. I suppose if someone loudly spoke out against Jesus and the Bible in a public forum, you would have something to say about it. Does that mean you are "not convinced" of your position?Actually, no. I feel that people have rights to their own beliefs. If I see someone speaking loudly against Jesus, or what I believe, I keep walking. Here, i am visited by the opposition. Now, ultra-pushy Christians, to me, do violate rights. Knocking on my door to spread the "gospel" is not polite in my opinion. But maybe some would not hear w/o that that type of evangelism at all. God knows best. I just wonder why the name Jesus causes so much anger and bitterness. But, my answer is quite clear. Had I taken more time to think before asking my question, I would have heard the Spirit say, "Because Satan has many more followers" much earlier. The name Jesus is scary to the adversary. He don't want it uttered. I get that now.
Again, this is a public forum. Not a private one. You have the right to voice your opinion publicly, and others do as well. It's a two-way street.
Knocking on people's doors may be impolite, but it is not a violation of anyone's rights. If somebody doesn't like living in a pluralistic society, I guess they can always go live on a compound in the woods where everyone thinks the same way (such as the Amish or the Orthodox Jews or Fundamentalist Mormons as I mentioned).
The name "Jesus" certainly doesn't bother me. In fact, I use it all the time in various situations.
The problem for many is the self-righteous, demeaning holier-than-thou tone of much of Christianity.
As Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians."Well, the name Jesus (or whatever your language prefers) is, for sure the hot topic. Yes, this is a public forum. I did not say that it wasn't. I only said that we CHOOSE what we respond to. We may read the topic even before reading the first line of any topic. Me? I CHOOSE to stick to subjects that I am interested in. I am not interested in stuff that I do not believe in. So, we have two options in this case, for your behavior. Either you don't believe in God and you "just came to tell me how ridiculous I am", which says a lot about you as a person; or, you want to believe, so you come to be convinced. Which species art thou???
No, I don't think anybody cares about the name "Jesus." It's just a word.
It's about the reputation that many Christians have created for themselves through their behavior in pluralistic societies. That's what Gandhi pointed out.
The problem today is caused by Evangelicals trying to teach creationism in public schools, trying to impose their moral values on others through government fiat, etc. That angers a lot of people who don't share those values. That is why many non-Christians have a bad image of your religion.
I didn't come to "tell you how ridiculous you are," I came to answer your question in the OP. Whether you receive it (good Christian term) or not, is up to you.Keep watching. The name Jesus is powerful. The name upsets the world. For sure, some have misinterpreted or misconstrued the words he spoke in an attempt to push selfish agenda, but that cannot be attributed to Jesus or God. They agree. We must find a way to agree along those lines, if we are spiritual. Since you were kind enough to answer my question, so far away from your comfort zone, I thank you. Your opinion on this matter is greatly appreciated! I know it must have taken a lot out of you to come to a Christian discussion to share your views.
Fyi...not all Christians are going to hell for sure, quite a few of us will be first in line because of our disloyalty. But you seem to be labeling, stigmatizing, and being quite prejudicial. Not ALL of any group are the same.I appreciate your kind words. But there's no stigmatizing or prejudice here, just analysis and explanation. You asked, so I answered. As a Christian, you may not quite get just how intrusive and tiring the religious right have been in the US (although not recently, since economic issues are the dominant theme in the election today). But it's real. To say nothing of the general pervasive Christian motifs in public life in this country, from "in God we trust" on the currency to "God bless America" at the end of every political speech.
Take a look through my hubs (you are welcome to comment because I do not discourage people who disagree with me). You will see I've studied these issues extensively and have plenty of information behind my opinions. Yes, there are many fine, humble, tolerant Christians. No doubt. But there are also many prejudicial, hateful, self-righteous and oppressive.
So if you want to understand why so many non-Christians have such animosity, often emotional and irrational, you must understand the very real situation in the public square in this country.
Now, if we look at Europe, we see a totally different situation. There, there is no "religious right" per se, no large groups of Christians actively try to impose themselves on broader society, and religious belief is nowhere near as significant in culture or (certainly) politics. Populations are much more secular. As a result, there is not the highly-charged atmosphere around religion or Christianity as there is here.From what I have gathered, Christians are persecuted just about everywhere. We are pretty much free to express our Christianity here; as we are free to express strict non belief. However, it seems that God has been a force in this country at least as long as I have been alive. I have never seen an American coin w/o the phrase you mentioned. As well, the phrase at the end of political speeches that you mentioned has been uttered at least since I have been here (close to 40 years). The oppression of Christianity is a NEW phenomenon in this country. We have decided that there is too much freedom for the Christian within our borders??? No MORE room for God??? We are tired of Spirit now??? We are irritated by words on the money that we spend NOW??? We hate our pledge NOW because it includes the words "one nation under God"??? I remember saying "the pledge" in grammar school. I also remember some not being ABLE to say it, until EVERYONE was UNABLE to say it. Now, Americans who joined this country or were born in it, like our freedoms, but don't like our God??? So they keep freedom (which came from our belief in God) and want to "chuck" the reason for the freedom???
you laughing yet???I am laughing. Oppression of Christianity? Your ignorance of the history of your country notwithstanding, I think your are misusing the word "oppression."
Is it true that Atheists in America are not allowed to hold government office?You do seem to be ignorant of a number of things.
The fact that you ignored my point to whine again does not mean I didn't say anything.You are ignorant to many things too. So now that we have that established..
Yes, but I tend not to express an opinion on things I know nothing about.
Oppressed much?
Ok, suppression! Better??? Christianity is under attack in this country. It was not always that way.
Ignorance of my country??? Wanna explain your point?
Atheists are barred from running our country??? Did you read all those quotes presented by those "running" and "posing" as Christian??? Obviously not followers based upon the quotes of Christ???So - that was a "yes" - atheists are forbidden from holding public office?
Remember when Christianity was not under attack?
Ahh - Segregation and slavery - yes?
Wow!!! That was an eerie man at the end of your "vignette". Christians should shut the fuck up??? Yep, that is my point. Now yours?
Sorry you didn't understand. Hardly surprising.
You want slavery back? How odd.
Did I just say that? So, NOW Christianity is equal to slavery???
let me get my pen... Ok, go!!!
Okay, there are some 38,000 denominations of Christianity with a church on almost every corner.
How is that suppression?
Is Christianity not trying to suppress the freedoms of gays, the choice of women on abortion and contraception?
And, when Christians constantly utter threats that we're going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity because we're evil, how is Christianity being attacked?
It seems all you complain about is what Christianity is achieving itself.Not only Christians are prolife. Not only Christians have a church. Yes, in my opinion, Christianity has ALWAYS been this country's "dominant" religion. I have said it before. But, I always get flack from somewhere. There was one who argued me down on this country NOT being a Christian-dominated society. They had "proof" too.
This conversation can become circular because I find that my opponents attack from ALL sides. They become confused. They say what is necessary to "win" in their eyes. Their only stance is, genaea, that's wrong! They stand for "whatever" else.
I am with you This is a Christian-dominated society. We are attacking that, NOW. You agree?
From where did you gather that, your imagination?
Are you now saying YOUR God is the American God?Persecuted?
Only if you define "persecuted" as "not coddled and treated as better than everyone else".
Every group of people sometimes faces issues. But in the US they are seriously negligible to anyone with a sense of proportion. Sermonizing at people while they stay silent is not a right.Do you know what you are saying at all??? You are just picking. Do you have a purpose??? Maybe you should stick to what you know. Did you count up how many you personally watched???
I've read and studied the bible in depth repeatedly, and I'm an atheist. Seemingly, however, it's unfortunate that I appear to know it better than you. Not only is slavery okay in the bible, it is thoroughly discussed. God gives commandments about how often and how severely you can beat your slaves - if they don't die within a few days (but die later on as a result of their injuries) it's okay. It goes into great depth about who you can own - other jews can only be owned for a period of seven years (unless you give them a wife that they don't want to leave when the seven years are up - then you can own them forever). Gentiles (see anyone who is non-jewish) can be owned forever and passed on as property to your children.
Slavery is not only discussed in the Old Testament, in case you were going to say the Old Testament doesn't count anymore. Paul discusses slavery in depth as well, and even goes as far as to say that slaves should obey their masters - even the cruel and brutal ones - and that christian slaves should not try to run away, escape or fight back.Am I missing your point??? Jesus came to bring abundant life. Jesus called us ALL to be servants. I thought you said you read the bible.
i am not moved by your statement. Have you forgotten that most Americans "report" to someone, everyday??? We still have "masters" to obey. And work to do "as unto God.
You needed a good adrenaline pump today?
I hope it was effectivemy point is simple, and you seem to be missing it. Someone else equated christianity with slavery, and you seemed incredulous that the connection should be made, so I linked the two unarguably. The bible (in both testaments) not only endorses, but promotes slavery.
We're all supposed to be servants? You have no problem with someone beating you within an inch of your life then? You have no idea considering yourself the property of another human being - not a deity?
Slavery cannot possibly be compared to going to work and having a boss. They don't own you. They don't tell you that you're less than human and that you're property. That's a very silly comparison to make.Now you are most funny
When you add the love of Christ, you realize how easily the term servant has a different connotation. Jesus served the entire time he lived. And he provided for those who followed. I don't know the reason that God added those laws. He probably just KNOWS better. I hear his message. I am not demanding that you do. Jesus make you mad too???no, jesus doesn't make me mad. In fact, there is lots of evidence to suggest that jesus never actually existed. Santa doesn't make me mad either. Fictitious characters don't typically upset me much.
Servant is not the same thing as a slave. Seriously. Are you saying that slavery is moral? That's the euthyphro's dilemma. Basically speaking, Euthyphro states the question: does god command something because it is moral, or is something moral because it is commanded by god? Can you think of ANY reason where slavery is moral, good or right? Seriously? What possible reason could it be considered moral to enslave another human being - who god also supposedly loves.
What did I say that was so funny? I don't see the joke.The funny is in your insistence. Slavery is not authorized. Jesus came to break those chains. Slavery in the new testament is different. What's your beef?
and where does it say that jesus came to break the chains of slavery? Paul, the author of the large majority of the new testament does not say anything about no more slavery. Again (and I've pointed this out before) Paul advises his readers to submit to their masters and obey them - even if they beat or mistreat you.
Doesn't sound like chains being broken"Vengence is mine," says the Lord, "I will repay!" We mess our own thoughts and feelings up with trying to get someone for being mean. We have to try to not be side-tracked by anger or revenge. Needless to say, we have masters everywhere. Jesus claimed to be "the master" yet he served those around him all the time. Arguing over "words" is another carefully crafted trap. The spirit of God informs me that slavery is wrong. The bible was written a few years before I was born, i really do not understand the culture of things back then. Slavery seems to me to have been commonplace. But now, I am free!!! Free, I tell ya
and I will be speaking it like it is.so slavery is okay because it was a different culture? That doesn't answer the question. Do you find slavery to be moral?
No. Slavery is immoral. But here within our borders is tons of it. Let's get some signs. I know many operations that we may encircle in protest. God knows the truth. People do what they do. The bible is for believers. Stop perpetratin'
it is mystical to them who do not believe.
also, if the spirit of god is telling you that slavery is wrong, then the spirit of god is contradicting what you believe to be the word of god. If god is any one of the omni's presented in the bible (omnipresent, omnipotent, benevolent, etc...) then god is incapable of changing. he remains the same. that means that he can't contradict himself - and if he does, then he is not god.
What a callous, nonsensical, flippant way to just totally excuse slavery. This proves, without a doubt that religion is nothing more than brainwashing. Believers will accept ANYTHING, no matter how immoral, as long as they feel that they are pleasing this psychotic, bloodthirsty beast they call GOD. Believers become mere tools for the government to mold just as they please, because the God you worship is nothing more than your government. If you lived in some other countries(middle east) you would be a devout Muslim, full of the same fear that you have for the imaginary Christian god.
My great grandparents were slaves, and I find your comments ALARMING!, and completely insulting.
As a black American, I can never be a Christian. It would mean that I have allowed myself to be defeated. To me, emancipation doesn't mean just being physically released from chains, it also means having the mental awareness to reach for the full potential that freedom suggests...
Believing what someone else wants you to believe is certainly not freedom. That's just slavery.This is about right - except that fundies would worship a stick with feathers on it if they had been brought up with it - being dim as a 20W light bulb makes it hard for them to see outside themselves.
I am shocked!!! Gimmie a sec.
Whai I tell you has nothing at all to do with excusing slavery. I have great grand-parents who owned slaves. But I am not in that place at all. Slaves are no longer owned; please remind me how it keeps entering this... Oh! Y'all think the Lord wants you to return to slavery. No! Don't be ridiculous We are free getitright. And you never really responded to my questions of what you do believe. I bet it is much more ridiculous.It will keep entering the debate, because you have not given an honest answer. Everything you have said is simply numbo jumbo. Your god is ok with slavery. It LITERALLY says so in the bible. You think your god is perfect, and worthy of worship. Hence, you think slavery is just GREAT!
There is no "LORD" ...but the Bronze Age savages who wrote your insane bible would be totally in support of returning us to slavery. They would also return women to being "property" just like in those backward, oppressive Islamic countries.
When you garner enough courage to think for yourself, then, and only then, will you be free. Believing in the nonsense that your government has commanded you to is not freedom. Believers are all enslaved, as they don't possess the fortitude to defeat their masters. You have more than proven this, by defending this nonsense, even while sacrificing your own morals.
genaea, this exercise has been tried before. It is you asserting the nonsensical premise, therefore it is you who bear the responsibility to prove your assertions to be sound.
I simply don't see any evidence to support the existence of a god. Period. Now go ahead and prove to me just how illogical that is? And by doing so, I'm sure you will soothe the cognitive dissonance caused by your fairy tale beliefs.Haaa-ha!!! Somebody taught you some words!!!
Listen, the words that you speak are just that. You have this idea that you have NOT been brainwashed. Think for yourself. Believe all the OTHER books you've read. I aint got no problem wit dat!Just because you can't counter with anything reasonable, doesn't mean you have to get downright irrelevant.
Please stop creating strawman fallacies, and admit that your beliefs are silly, childish fairy tales. This is not about reading books, but about the nonsense that you are trying to assert as truth. You cannot give your silly beliefs any more veracity by attempting to prove that reason is flawed as well. Your position is one of sheer desperation.I have no reason to be desperate
I know I speak truth when I speak. I am pointing out to you that logic is more irrelevant. Cognitive dissonance, is not a common term. You are PROVING your "worth" by uttering 40 dollar words? God wants you to believe in him but he does not require it. I believe what I say with all my heart. You believe "whatever" else
You think for yourself, but you had to get your contradicting opinion from somewhere. Right??? Have you conducted any of your own calculations, or excavations looking for God? Or did you just take what you HEARD at face value??? You don't believe in God. Why are you in a conversation about "PINOCCHIO"??? Free speech?
Do not invite me to your Tooth Fairy forum, I aint comin'You believe with your heart?
Or say with your heart?
How can a pumping organ do either?
Are you, me?Yet here you are trying desperately to defend a completely indefensible insane premise. Pinocchio?
Yet all of your assertions are based on a book of lies. Huh? Go figure.
Have fun driving yourself to madness!
Cognitive Dissonance?
cognitive dissonance is used to describe the feeling of discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs. When there is a discrepancy between beliefs and behaviors, something must change in order to eliminate or reduce the dissonance.
There are three key strategies to reduce or minimize cognitive dissonance:
1. Focus on more supportive beliefs that outweigh the dissonant belief or behavior.
2. Reduce the importance of the conflicting belief.
3. Change the conflicting belief so that it is consistent with other beliefs or behaviors.
Wow! You mean I don't have to go to hell now?
Of course I have conducted my own observations. I became an atheist, before I even knew there was such a term. You don't really grasp the term free thinker, because you are viewing life from a state of perpetual subordination.
You must look for God inside you. He reserved a spot for himself there.
I'm just browsing the forum in general, but your post struck a chord. You may have addressed this in a later post that I haven't gotten to yet, and if that's the case, I apologize for my redundancy.
You said "The oppression of christianity is a new phenomenon in this country"
Christians are not being oppressed or persecuted in the United States, and they rarely (if ever) were. Why do christians see dissent or disagreement as persecution? No one is forcing christians to convert to another religion. No one is forcing christians to do things against their will. No one is forcing christians to stop going to church, or arresting them for their beliefs. THAT is oppression and persecution, and that is most certainly NOT happening.
The religious right of this country are first to promote their right to free speech, but as soon as someone disagrees with their right to make laws based on their own personal faith, they cry persecution or a violation of their free speech or freedom of religion. The thing is that free speech goes both ways. People who do not agree with christianity have just as much right to state their opinions as the christians do. To call it persecution is in essence crying "wolf" just to gain attention.
More and more people are calling for the separation of church and state, which was a founding principle in this country back to the beginning. You may not remember a time when "in god we trust" was not on the money, or that "under god" was included in the pledge of allegiance - but both of them are relatively NEW additions. They were added during the red scare - when the country was afraid that it would be attacked by the communists of Russia - in the 1950's. Before then, god was simply not mentioned.
Political pundits on both sides of the fence have a tendency to believe that pandering to the religious right will win them votes, but faith should have nothing to do with who we elect. There should be no test of faith required in order to be elected. This country was not founded as a christian nation, nor is it one now. It's a secular nation. The majority happens to be christians - for now. More and more people with varying beliefs are simply starting to step forward and voice their dissent - something that they have a definitive right to do.I agree with you to an extent. I went all the way back to before there was an America. The "settlers" lured the people with a Christianity that contained their "spin". Right??? The "missionaries" "visited" to acquire... I mean tell the world about the "love" of Jesus. They even whipped it into most of the backs of their new acquisit... I mean those they were "helping" to "civilize" with blood??? Now I could be wrong, but I am sure that the original new American nation settlers were sometimes called missionaries? Who spread Christianity. Let me get my books.
Technically, they weren't missionarries. The thing that makes it so ironic is that they were victims themselves - they fled England and other European countries because their protestantism or puritanism was being persecuted by the predominantly catholic countries of their origin.
They mutilated, enslaved, tortured and killed the indigenous American people, not to mention the spread of disease which wiped out native Americans in droves. Pilgrims forced the natives to convert or die - a concept that has been put into place by all sorts of christians throughout history - see the crusades, the inquisition, the witch hunts, the persecution of children to the present in Africa. christianity is a religion of blood, and has has a brutal and bloody history that cannot simply be dismissed away.The blood of Jesus! People miss that. The bloodshed comes from man. Or maybe the Lord allows it for a purpose. Either way, God left instruction. Some/ maybe most flunk.
What about the blood of jesus, if he existed to be able to bleed at all? what's the point?
The bloodshed does come from other human beings, but throughout the history of the judeo-christian god, it has been ordered on behalf of the deity. Did you miss the old testament when god commanded the jews to kill every man, woman and child of tribes that stood in their way in the conquest of canaan? Or the fact that god commanded them to slice open the bellies of pregnant women and kill both them and their unborn child? How about the god who sent two bears to mutilate and kill 42 children simply because they called Elisha bald? How about the god who was opposed to human sacrifice (at least according to the law) but commanded abraham to murder his son - and then changed his mind. Jeptha's daughter was not so lucky, however. Jeptha made a deal with god and agreed to sacrifice the first thing to greet him upon his return home if god would deliver his enemies. It happened to be his daughter - and god seemed silent on the subject, so jeptha murdered her for simply welcoming her father home from battle.
Did jesus not say that he came not to bring peace but a sword and turn man against his brother? The bloodshed may come from man, but it's because man is following gods word. All of the crusaders were told that killing a muslim wasn't murder, it was the will of god and that their sins would be forgiven. the inquisitors burned thousands of jews, muslims, protestants and "witches" in fires due to the will of god. The muslim attackers of september 11th believed they were acting in the will of god. George Bush sent the United States to war in Iraq and Afghanistan as a "crusade" Are you saying none of these people were "true christians"? Who are you to determine that? They're behaving in accordance with the bible. It's the "no true Scotsman" fallacy at its truest form.Wow. You are bitter; though you are no different from any other rejector. You can take the realities of scripture and believe what you wish. I am Christian. I don't kill people. I know it is not right. Jesus spoke in parables. Mother against daughter is parabolic for one believes his message and one does not. In this case, they are "opposed" in opinion
see? Jesus did not advocate war. He told us to stop fighting and extent ourselves for the good of all. To be kind, even to those who hurt us. You can stick your mind to war all you want. It is a strategically planned stumbling block. But it won't get in my way. where do you get bitter from? I'm not the least bit bitter, actually. Pointing out that science, history and even religious scholars question the person-hood of jesus does not make one bitter - it makes one informed.
Here's a question. How do you know which of jesus' reported teachings were parables, and which were not? Who decides which goes where? Why don't you kill people? The bible commands it, and you follow the bible, don't you? god himself commands killing. Do you advocate the death penalty? If you do, you advocate killing.
The realities of scripture? Which realities, and how do you know their real? It boils down to the fact that you believe what you want to believe because you believe it - regardless of any evidence against it and the lack of evidence for it.
Red Herring: I am not speaking about war, I'm speaking about killing. What exactly are you claiming is a stumbling block?
And no, in response to your other post - atheists don't cause harm. Atheism, since you don't seem to understand what it means, is nothing more than a lack of belief in a god claim. You yourself are an atheist if you reject the muslim claim of a god named alah. You have a lack of belief in that particular god, therefore you are an atheist in regards to islam. How do you not see this?
I would like to know how atheists cause harm, simply from disbelief.Whew! That was a mouthful and it seems as if we turned a couple of times. Let me touch what I can. You seem bitter that the bible says that war and slavery are good. It does not. Also, when you believe what God says, you know his character. I know him to be a God of love. But that is because I'm up close
the bible says that those who are not spiritually minded are oblivious to the true messages of the bible. But it is so with everything you decide to believe. Take your own beliefs for instance. No one can convince you that God is not all for war. You have decided that what you read points to that fact. All of my witness, when spoken to you, falls on deaf ears. I know the character of God because I had just enough faith to ask him to show himself to me. He came. He told me what I needed to know. He sent witnesses. You cannot convince me that I am crazy. I have already assessed the situation myself with good result. And if you want to talk IQ, I surpass many the question that I find hard to get an answer for from those who don't believe is: What do you believe??? Any response you give comes along with questions. No belief is airtight. I can blow a gaping hole in all your theories as well, but I bet you are not open for that huh??? Go ahead, be the first how can you possibly say that the bible does not endorse slavery, murder and war? Have you READ it? Do I need to list specific chapter and verse for you to understand that I know what I'm talking about here? I'm not bitter - I'm incredulous that you simply have no concept of what your own book says about slavery and genocide.
Where do you get the notion of god being a god of love? The god of the old testament, firstly named El was actually a god of war. Some history may be beneficial. The god portrayed by the jewish torah in the old testament is VASTLY different than the god portrayed as the father of jesus in the new testament. It's like he's schizophrenic.
When did I call you crazy? you're seeing insults where none exist in reality. I think your beliefs are unfounded and dubious, but that's a challenge to your beliefs - not to you as a person. You have the right to believe anything you want.
What witnesses? I'm listening to everything you're writing and responding. Deaf ears would mean that I can't hear you or understand what you're saying. That's simply not the case. I did not question your IQ or bring it up at all.
I am fully open to my beliefs being challenged, so that's really not a problem. What do I believe? In regards to what? I believe in many different things - I just don't have a belief in a god. Why is that difficult to understand? Which of my beliefs are you referring to?
If you say "I can blow gaping holes in your beliefs as well" that would indicate that I have blown holes in your beliefs, but you're adamantly reasserting that you're not shaken in the least. Incidentally, I'm not trying to destroy your beliefs or change your mind. Simply posting in an open forum in which you posed a question and challenging some assertions that you made that simply aren't true. Free speech and all. In the meantime, you bring up repeatedly that christians are being persecuted, that you're insulted and called names, but I have done none of that. But you called me bitter, silly etc. Seems to me the shoe is on the wrong foot, here.Ok, so you are not bitter...
It seems that you have something against me. I am not your enemy. Belief in no God is ok. How did you get here (you know what I mean)? How did you stop at a forum about "Pinocchio"? You too were drawn. Why? Again I say, there was no red "must participate" warning in the OP (maybe I should check to be sure). I do not participate in atheistic forums. They do not interest me in the least.
Ready? Go.
You shouldn't rise to the inane questioning and word twisting, let alone the inane point of view behind it all - or you might lose patience and call it what it actually is and collect a three month ban like others here. The MO is snipe and irritate until you reply a little harshly and then report you. Get out while the going is good buddy
thanks for the tip. I'm keeping my calm - people like this simply don't get to me - I've had to develop a rather thick skin or else I wouldn't be in the profession of debating. Thanks for he heads up, though - duly noted.
Thank you for your recommendation
I have never reported a soul. I can take all the filth-flarn-filth you can muster; and still paste you a because I don't give a hoot how you act. But I wanna be right.
I have lived in Europe, maybe some day I will live there again. But I like the US just fine. Doesn't mean it is a flawless country.
It will be very hard for you to understand why people vehemently disagree with you about God and religion in public life until you take a step back and try to understand a different perspective.
From your perspective, you believe God is the source of freedom and justice. That's fine, you can believe whatever you want. But millions of people in this country have a totally different perspective, and they live here too. So they have a say in how their country is run just like you.
It may be hard for you to get someone else's point of view if you just automatically dismiss it as evil, from the Devil, etc.It seems as if you are dismissing God. I know that this country would not be what it is w/o the views that it started with. Though we don't all agree, this WORLD belongs to God. Public life is for God. Private life, for God. You may believe what you wish. He gave you that right as he did your mother Eve
Just so ya know... I am never "upset" by the objections to my faith. I am only surprised that there are so many People have a right to choose as they wish. But so do I. You are only subjected to it now because you chose to. There were no red "must read/participate" notices in the OP . But I am glad to have spoken to you.I'm not talking about in these forums, I'm talking about in the larger culture/ American society, where Christianity and Christian themes and motifs are given default preference.
I never said you were upset. I reiterate, it will be hard if not impossible for you to get other people's perspectives on these social and cultural issues as long as you continue to frame it in a binary good/ evil manner. You originally indicated you wanted to understand people. That's how you start.Now see??? The "binary good/evil box" is opened by you on this forum, though I am sure that someone else mentioned it before. I am not trying to persuede you over to Christianity. I asked the question because since I have participated in these discussions, I have noticed a marked increase in objectionable behavior toward me, simply because of my faith. And I am really "laid-back". I find it hard to "defend" myself in a physical altercation
Being disrespected and belittled is the "Christian" presence on this site, it seems. There were so many "silly" arguments that I wondered if there was a way to find peace and discuss the issues in a manner that merges into some type of harmony. Not agreement, of course but harmony.
The dominant opinion seems to be that the Christian is pushy and self-righteous. Well, that could not be further from a good description of me. However, I have been the "victim" of pushy and self-righteous nonChristians on these forums, because of my view. It is kinda funny aint never really suffered prejudices, to my knowledge; as odd as that may seem. I don't think it has anything to do with your "faith." More to do with your self righteous attitude and total lack of respect for any one else. Plus the "woe is me, I am being oppressed," martyr attitude that seems to be so prevalent amongst your belief system.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Let me know when you have read your bible and tell me what Jesus said about slavery.
"If you are not against slavery, you are for it." rings a bell.Genaea:
The "binary good/evil box" is opened by you on this forum
Certainly not. It was begun by you. You said earlier:
I just wonder why the name Jesus causes so much anger and bitterness. But, my answer is quite clear. Had I taken more time to think before asking my question, I would have heard the Spirit say, "Because Satan has many more followers" much earlier. The name Jesus is scary to the adversary. He don't want it uttered. I get that now.
You also specifically said that God was a force for good in the US. So you clearly drew the distinction between God and his followers (the good guys), and those who disagree or are uncomfortable with God in the public square (the bad guys, related to Satan).
In any case, there are pushy and self-righteous people all around, everywhere. I agree with that. But Christianity has a much longer and stronger tradition of it.
If you are interested, there are some Christian groups that focus on engaging peacefully with secular people and people of other faiths, supporting the separation of church and state, etc. I think those groups are a good model for all believers in a pluralistic culture. Of course, they tend to not view others as hell-bound heathens in the service of SatanYou misunderstood my phrases. God was the force/ source of freedom, if I remember correctly. Not necessarily good or bad, depending on who's looking
Also, my wonder was at the fact that Jesus (you said good, thankyou, I forgot was so hated. I realized that it was because his adversary (satan) has more followers. That to me is a legitimate argument, wouldn't you say? You did the good/bad thing. I compared my position to most others on this forum. And the name Jesus raises neck hairs. More obvious to me now than ever.
Just a note... I consider no one a hell-bound heathen. And I know you did not get that from listening to me. see how people just make-up stuff about me??? Hmmm...expected. I forgot; carry on If it was a miscommunication, no big deal.
But again, Jesus is not the issue. His followers are.
The problem with creationism is not evangelical. The problem is Both Theories were taught until recently when someone decided to forget that they were called Theories not a conclusive scientific fact. Creationism doesn't disprove evolution and evolution doesn't disprove creationism. They can coexist.
There was the statement in the '70s that we were going to lose our little fingers and little toes because we had evolve to a place where we don't need them any more. Has this come to pass. No, does that mean that evolution is a myth? Of course not.How does that work considering Creationism states that all living things were placed here by God in the form they're in today?
Who says that creationism poses that we were placed here as we are today? Where is the finger/toe scripture???
Non-Christians have a bad view of Christians partly because of their misunderstanding of Christianity. Ghandi, as an accuser of the brethren is agreeing with Satan (adversary). The world at large has no clue what it means to be a Christian yet, they judge Christians. But, their judgment is based on what they think a Christian should be like- they disregard our individuality, personality, and level of maturity within the faith.
Gandhi, "Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ."
“If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today,”I love that statement. Ghandi and his people were kind, giving, compassionate and just about everything else that Christ was.
i have not studied them, but what I have heard speaks volumes. Ghandi probably looks as Christ did. He had the look of contentment, and peace. His pictures always bring a smile to my face.
The Christians, for some reason, miss the messages on pride, selfishness, greed, especially greed, haughty spirit, and did I say pride? They take the scriptures and manipulate the context to appeal to wealth and false justification. I know. I watched it a lot.
But as for thinking about the God I know, uncritically, I don't think is allowed. The bible told us to study for our own benefit. But it did not say to study Aristotle; but study the word of God.
I had to do that, contradiction was getting to be too much for me. So, I sat down, prayed to the father for his spirit to understand. Once I focused on contradiction #1. "God wants to bless you with riches!!!! But you gotta "prove him now!" You give to him, and he will give to you!!!
Well, Jesus said, it's gon' be hard for rich people to get to heaven. Hmmmm...
Somebody lyin'; and I KNOW it aint Jesus. "Let me understand this, Lord," was my prayer. When I read the scriptures on "prosperity" and I read a little further down each time, I realized that "prosperity" is viewed mostly as spiritual in nature. NOT financially. Greed will make you change scripture around. Knowing God who owns everything, is the best thing in life. AND IT'S FREE!!!. Some of us do not know how to handle riches. God knows who to entrust with such a responsibility. Money makes most people feel as if God is unneccessary. "Pray for what??? I got erthang I wont!" (Such deception)
God knows who is who. Many other so-called contradictions are also cleared up completely with simply reading a little bit further down the page.
The bible is solid. Study it for yourself.This is where critical thinking comes into play. You are trying to fix the contradictions rather then looking for them.
Who told you God lets only those who can handle riches have money? Where does it say that? It only says God doesn't let the rich into heaven. The fact that you are not thinking critically shows your indoctrination. Think about it. Why were you taught not to question the bible and not to see knowledge. Think. Think. Think.Critical thinking is what lead me to believe that some cannot handle riches. The bible did not say that. Jesus said that it is hard for a rich man to enter heaven. That is why I believe the bible when it says that loving money is the root of evil. When you LOVE money, you will do just about ANYTHING TO GET/Keep it. The bible also says that you can't serve God and money. Think think think. And read all the words. Not just some.
So then why did you say God decides who gets money?
That is not "God decided who gets money" though all riches are his. Who else may dole???
Are you okay? I'm actually serious because you seem to be having problems seeing very blatant contradictions. You seem to be saying God doesn't decide who gets money, but he doles out the money to whoever he wishes. So, he doesn't decide and he does?
You are so black and white that your world is turning gray
i saaaaaiiiid I had not made that statement, though I agree with it. You are major fun!!!
God owns all. Even you. He can make ANYTHING happen. You cant even IMAGINE all that he is capable of. No one can. But hus word is plain to his children. And when they are not plain enough Jesus showed us the way. When you look for contradiction, no answer I give you is sufficient. Though, I can answer ALL of your questions. You ready?God can make ANYTHING happen. That's not critical thinking. Can he make a rock so big he can't lift it. Can he stop children from starving in Africa? Can he say it's impossible for the rich to get into heaven unless he lets them? Complete and utter nonsense.
Also, the bible does not say that rich people can't get into heaven. Thats YOUR critical thinking. Cut it out!!!
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Tell me, what are the chances of getting a camel through the eye of a needle? None, you bible says Jesus says NONE.God can do anything. Jesus chose his words perfectly. God gave Job many riches for being faithful. Do you think that he is then barred???
I thought you knew how to "critically" think. Oh!!! You need ALL the info to do that. Therein lies our problem study...No contradictions there? God gives riches and Jesus says getting into heaven rich is impossible. Which is it then. Was Jesus wrong or God or both?
But you don't wish to show the error in reasoning?
You seem to be able to think critically towards me, but fail to question the obvious contradictions in front of you.
You prefer to see contradictions. You refuse to read the entire quote. You prefer the lie.
So where can I pick up a pair of these "crazy reading glasses" ..?
Ghandi's quote lumps "Christians" into one big mass. It assumes that all behave the same way. Had he said, "... I do not like some Christians" that would have been a fair, intelligent response to Christianity. Not all who claim Christianity are Christians. Also, the world view of what a Christian should be like is based largely on opinion alone. Before judging a Christian, perhaps one should read the Bible in its entirety as that is what governs the Christian life. Most who are quick to point out perceived flaws in the walk of a Christian have not the foggiest idea of what being a Christian is truly all about.They forget that even Jesus ran the money exchangers out of the temple court yard with cords He had braided together. It was Jesus who proclaimed that we have it wrong if we think He came to bring peace. It was Jesus who said if anyone loves the world, the love for God is not in them. Ghandi and many others think Christianity and God for that matter, is all tip-toe through the posies and smile while you're doing it. A Christian can feed the world and lose his/her temper and all the unbelieving world would notice is that he/she lost his/her temper. Being a Christian is not being an emotional super hero, it is a journey and we learn as we walk it. We are not perfect people, we are forgiven people who agree with God that we are in need of a Savior. A true Christian realizes their struggle with sin and they do so not because Ghandi or anyone else points it out, but because their love for God and His love returned moves them.
This is, one again, a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. When Christians disagree, or act in a way other Christians don't particularly like, then they're "not true Christians". This way, any Christan can distance himself/herself from behavior they have a problem with. there are over 3000 denominations of christianity alone, and most claim that they are the only true Christians and everyone else is deceived. Convenient, isn't it?
Incidentally, according to the Bible, Jesus not only drove out the money changers in a fit of rage - it was premeditated, and he even had time to make a whip to use while he did it, at least if you believe one of the gospels. The other three leave that violent little tidbit outIt's true that not all Christians are the same, but the vast majority are not Christ like. Christians have the reputation of thinking they are better then others and in the states for some unknown reason most Christians seem to think the rich should should pay less taxes which in turn means less charity.
Sounds good to me. I believe Ghandi was very much like Christ himself. Christians do get stupid. I may even have MY moment from time to time.
It is not our actions but our faith. The SAME can apply for all.
Jesus realized our disadvantage in dealing with self. TOO MANY "SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS" are galloping around on their HIGH-horses and doing exactly what biblical believers were told by Jesus NOT to do. Judgment is reserved. Thinking you are something when you are really nothing is deception. We ALL are missing the "mark" of perfection. To turn up one's nose at anyone is a PRIDE stolen. Jesus pointed out clearly that NO ONE can "cast the first stone" but him, and not even he threw a stone at anyone beside the people of the church. He actually fought with them.
People forget that God's mercy MUST extend to ; even themselves.
Thirdly, I guess Christians have a hard time understanding why people view their belief system as ridiculous. So here is a thought experiment:
*Christianity claims that a man was born to a virgin woman. Humans cannot be born to virgins. This violates laws of biology and physiology.
*Christianity claims that a man converted water into wine. This is impossible, and violates a number of physical laws.
*Christianity claims that a man died, and came back to life. This is also impossible. No living thing can die and come back to life, so this violates basic physical and biological laws.
There's more where that came from, but that's enough for now.
So imagine someone loudly declared they had found the "truth." You would ask, what is this truth? And they reply: 10,000 years ago, a man got pregnant and gave birth to a child named Zorba. Zorba grew up, transformed a chicken into an elephant (among other things), and when he died, instead of falling over dead, he melted and became a puddle of mud.
You see how his story violates the same physical and biological laws as the Jesus story. You would be forgiven if you burst out laughing when this person with the "truth" told this story with a straight face. You would also be forgiven for seeing that individual as unintelligent and fooled by ancient superstition.
Whatever else Zorba said, did, his message, his example, etc, will not make up for the ridiculous claims made about his life.
Christians who want to enter the public forum should be prepared for being seen as pushing a hilarious belief system.I understand what you mean. My faith believes the miracles you mentioned. It is ok with me that you don't. Call me crazy! I can handle that too
. Zorba is imaginative. Jesus is not. Believe with all your heart or chuck it all out the window. Your rights are protected too.That's why your beliefs have no credibility, you place above one imaginative character above all others.
You do not know that "virgins" have babies? There has been research done by the medical profession that some woman get pregnant without the conventional description of sex. They are intact physically there for virgins. It doesn't happen often, but a medical doctor used this as an argument against Christians because it meant Jesus wasn't a miracle. His mother had a rare form of pregnancy, but it was not a one time occurrence.
By the way I am a Christian and this article did not shake my faith. The comments in argument are the same by most nonbelievers: If Christians were better people I would believe them or check out their belief. If we were better people we wouldn't need Jesus we could save ourselves. That is exactly why we are Christians because we all fall short of expectations.Could anything shake your faith?
I wouldn't believe them if Christians were better people. The entire story is nonsense. The fact that Christians are not better people just means that they don't actually believe it either.It's always been my thought that most Christians don't actually believe what they say. The proof is in the pudding.
Exactly. You can bet your life if I genuinely thought I was going to be burned in hell for committing a sin - I would be sin free. These guys obviously don't believe it.
They just want you to.At the very least Christians would certainly be free of unwed mothers and adultery. Sadly that is not the case.
Nope!
Read the entire bible, especially the words of Jesus. pay particilar attention to the phrase, "Let he who is without sin..." God is the ultimate peacemaker man "takes note" of all your downfalls God looks beyond... You find forgiveness and grace too or don't. Let me get this through my thick skull. You think you can commit as much sin as you like. Throw away the 10 commandments, murder, adultery if you like, but as long you say you believe in Jesus, your in.
Is that why there are so many Christians in Jail?No, by no means do we have the "right-of-way" to sin.
Sin is inevitable. Believing that Jesus came, and all the other stuff he came for is what gets you "in". You could never make it "in" without Jesus. No one is "good" enough. Once you take Jesus in, sin becomes hard to commit, not impossible. God knows. He understands. He loves you enough to look pass all of the stuff you do, see the heart that loves him, and forgive away. Always. His mercy is everlasting!!! Now why did he let us know that?Yup, that's what I thought. Your version of God lets you do anything you want except not believe in him. This get you off the hock. This is how you satisfy your ego. You still get to do all the stuff you want to, but because you believe in Jesus you're in.
It's like my Jewish friend who eats pork. Why would he do that if his God tells him not to? Because pork is delicious and to satisfy his desire for pork he tells himself this is not a big sin.
It's like all my Muslim friends who drink alcohol. Why would they do that if it was a sin? Because Alcohol is fun and they justify that by saying it's not a big sin.
You are satisfying your ego to do the things you want to by saying all God wants is our love.So, you satisfy YOUR ego by saying, "There is no God?"
Read your bible for real this time. Jesus corrected all the bad teaching. "It is not what goes into man that makes him unclean, but what comes out." Jesus said.
Jesus hung with sinners here on earth. The "church" rejected him too. He drank wine. He just was not beligerant or unseemly. God is real in my mind. Also there, he sent Jesus to save us. That is what I believe. Your problem is you have no idea what you DO believe. You just "know" the God crap aint it. I hear you. Again, why try to convince me???I realize I will not convince anyone that they are delusional.
Whenever I tried to convince my former friend to take her medication, she would become so irate, I believe that, if she could have, she would have murdered me. She was firm in her belief that she was not psychotic in the least. The more I tried to help the more threatening she became, until I gave up. About a year later, I saw a bag lady strolling down the street, yelling, and laughing at all the cars that were going by. This bag lady was my former friend. This is a terrible affliction.
That's terrible, sorry. I've seen it up close myself as of late. Ended with a 10 story fall. I lost a cousin a few years ago as well. I was first exposed to it when my grade 3 friend didn't show up to school one day because her dad decided to kill the whole family and then himself.
That's why these psychotic behaviors must be addressed, swiftly, before they end in possible tragedies.
Two thousand years of Christian rule over much of our world IS a tragedy.
If you truly believe ancient, superstitious nonsense, based upon ignorant Bronze Age authors, is what is going to take our descendants into the future, then, no, I am doing nothing to help give humanity a better vantage as they negotiate the challenges of that future.
You definitely will not be able to convince yourself.
Please say hello to this man, for me, when you get to heaven!!!
No,m the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want deliberately is the problem. For example people say it is a sin to lie. So, I tell my friend her new haircut she loves looks nice even though I think it makes her look to thin or something, I have sinned. Should I go to jail for that no, it is socially acceptable. Should I grip about the work I do that some lazy co-worker won't and makes me miss lunch? The Bible says, "Do all things without complaining or arguing. Philippians 2:14 NLT
If I complain, it is a sin.
The only answer I have is one from a church deacon. He went forward one Sunday and surprised everyone in the church when he confessed he had just become convinced that he had never really been saved. He did what was expected of him. Finally, that Sunday sermon was the last straw and he had to be saved so he went forward and confessed his new found understanding. He wanted everyone to know he now understood what it meant to be a Christian.
Besides, I thought everyone in jail was not guilty. Isn't that what they all are supposed to say?
Oooooohhhh! Hell is the fear??? Guess what... "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."
Remember the criminal who died at Jesus' side? His crooked and probably filthy existence here on earth, was tranformed into pure acceptability in "paradise" because he believed, 1 minute before his death. He had no time to "be" good. His belief would have perfected him, and that is all that is important to God. Just be "willing" to hear and obey. Humans cannot be "good" no matter how hard they try!!! Faith in Jesus is key. God looks at your heart. The bible says, "Out if the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." If you say what Jesus said, he can be seen (by God) in your heart. But you gotta believe it. Again, God reads the heart. If you TRULY mean to follow, it gets easier and easier, bit by bit. Never to perfection. God did not provide us with perfection. It is found in Jesus.Of course it get easier and easier to believe. I've seen people believe there own lies once they tell them enough.
Nope, I don't lie to protect my ego. When I'm wrong I apologies. I have an in-law that is narcissistic and he lies to protect his ego and he believes his lies. He reinvents the past to protect his ego. He thinks he can do no wrong and everyone else are idiots. He has no more friends, surprise surprise.
Are you listening to yourself, Sir? You do not believe in something that you have spent days/weeks trying to prove. It is my opinion that you are trying to convince yourself...of something. Or is the psychosis spreading from your subjected sick family member???
I aint goin to no TOOTH FAIRY forums. Get that through your head first.I am not trying to convince myself of anything. I'm here because it's good exercise for my dyslexic brain and religion I find fascinating.
I figured that there was something switched around.
you are fascinated by your "screaming/hungry heart" it is why you are still here. I am glad you came your facination is by design.Sorry, you've got it wrong. My head and heart are just fine. I've got a tall beautiful wife and three great kids and I'm self employed and at home all day. Just trying to understand why you are still holding onto the tooth fairy?
You are holding on to the tooth fairy and she's "got you going". I believe what I say. You question that thing that you just can't understand. Drop your guard and read. The Lord will show you his message snd give you the desires of your heart. As you know, wife and kids all have a time limit. You could lose them ALL tomorrow. What will be left???
Oh - I know - it doesn't matter how bad Christians are - they get the free pass.
I am good. Please stop lying about me - thanks.
You don't get it Mark. No one can be sin free. We are human and have free choice. We aren't as indoctrinated as people seem to believe or we would not speed, complain about taxes or our Presidents. I hate seeing cars with Christian ids on them. If they cut me off in traffic or run a red light, I always cringe because I know it is another reason for a non-Christian to say, "See they don't believe their own nonsense. They are worse than me."
No - your beliefs are nonsense. As in- they make no sense at all. And you clearly don't believe or you would indeed be sin free. Eternity in hell for sinning? You don't believe it.
I am sin free, thanks for asking.Mark, are you a believer or no? I think you have flipped a time or two.
You can't tell that I don't believe?
No - never believed it even when I was having it stuck to me at Church School. It is nonsense - sorry. Even you cannot properly put it into words.
Right. When you are looking to condemn, you are condemned already. People forget that though. It is by our own standards that we are judged. Now I see why the most judgmental, find it hard to believe the message. They would condemn themselves.
The love of God is not rigid. He knows what he created.I enjoy reading and listening to people who all have there own version of God that neatly reflects what they need. "Murder, adultery, swearing, those are not big sins, God forgives those."
God forgives ALL sin. 'Cept blasphemy of the holy spirit.
I guess that's another thing you don't do. Your good to do what ever you like on earth to get into heaven. I'm not saying you do these things but you can steal, murder, have affairs with married men, lie, sell drug and do drugs. You've got yourself covered.
Raaaad Maaaan... God knows the heart. He looks there. Your actions do not match what is there sometimes. You don't think that God knows this? The "10 rules" are a standard. We know that the standard is high. Some of us have struggles that we will ALWAYS deal with. God has made a way for those who want him to come. Faith is key. "Doing" sometimes is the shaky part. Have you ever said something to hurt someone's feelings??? Then afterward felt really bad because you "really didn't mean to say that"??? God takes into account our intentions. When you "really didn't mean it" he knows. He gives you the biggest "hug" and kisses your self-inflicted boo-boo. On the other hand, if you reslly did mean to hurt, the love of God "convicts" you and shows your heart your error. If you accept his chastening, you learn to not be hurtful to others.
if you turn away or turn a deaf heart, it gets sticky cuz now he's got to show you something else to get your attention. God knows what we need. He made us.Then he knows why I don't believe in him and he will forgive me for it. I'm in. I like this God of yours, we can do all kinds of stuff and still get into heaven. I wonder is that's how army snippers justify the murders they commit?
Yes, he knows why you don't believe, but he won't change your mind. It belongs to you to do as you wish. He will suggest and suggest. But it is still up to you.
STRANGE, BUT AFTER LOOKING INSIDE THE HEART, THIS IS WHAT BIOLOGISTS HAVE COME UP WITH. IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT THERE IS NO THINKING MECHANISM, OF WHICH EMOTIONS ARE BASED:
Using this diagram, could you point out this mechanism for us? Thank youAs it turns out love is not even an emotion but an addiction. You get a fix every time you're with the loved one and go through withdrawal when you break up. All the same chemistry takes place, that's why the young have such a hard time with break-up's. Romeo and Juliet come to mind.
The heart in this instance is the center of you. That thing that adds "flavor" to your personality and distinguishes your "ventricles" from the next. Everybody has a heart. Not everybody has YOUR heart.
- And, when you have a heart transplant, you suddenly become the person whose heart you now have, magically.
Yes, it's called In Vitro Fertilization.
And, the explanation for that is...?No, there is a man and a woman, but they never go all the way. The sperm is deposited at the entrance and we all know they can swim. I know things are pretty lacks now days, but I don't know what is acceptable language so I don't want to go into to much detail. Girls can't believe they are pregnant because physically they are still virgins.
Rad Man, she was betrothed which is like an engagement and they didn't live together until after she was pregnant.
We are also expected to believe she was a married virgin. Newly married people usually take care of that rather fast.
The "church" gave the world "the finger" and shook it til people were afraid to say yes to God. So much "fear and trembling, fire and brimstone" caused too much fear.
Jesus is not "out to get" anyone. He is loving, he is kind, he is merciful, and he is here. Proof???
Uh-uh my brother, YOU'VE got to get your own.In my opinion, this is a terrible way for adults to negotiate life. Frightening.
You have taken God who made and sustains the laws of physics and all other laws that govern nature out of the equation- if He made the laws, certainly He can suspend them.
Once again your comment is proof of your indoctrination because of the fact that you are unwilling to look at the events described in the bible critically.
God was never in the equation in the first place. It is the blind indoctrinated believer who foolishly believe that it is logical to presuppose a god.
Imaginary beings are IMAGINARY, therefore they can''t make or suspend ANYTHING.
Yep the hot topic button is right.
Like you I am convinced of my position and can understand how you feel. I respect everyone’s right to their beliefs and to worship how they choose. However, I do think those beliefs end where my nose starts and that goes for everyone and I feel bombarded sometimes.
I get, mail, a knock on the door, or a TV ad every day inviting me to their church. It is never from a Catholic, Jew, Muslim or one of the many other religions in this country or on this planet, it is always from the same small branch of the Protestant church, that seem to be on every corner of our small town, there seems to be a church for every 10 people and they have decided they are the minority who are going to rule the majority and by rule I mean THEIR RULES.
I do not want to live in theocracy of any kind nor do I want someone trying to push their beliefs on me, convert me or remind me I am doomed if I do not believe as they do. Especially people who do not know me nor have any idea what I believe in.
My advice… next time your religious beliefs come up for discussion just smile and walk away, and remind them your beliefs are yours, no further discussion necessary. It works for me.Oh, see... You have a much different outlook than I. I am here, asking a question. You may choose to disregard or engage. Why engage to tell me you don't believe me? Why not YOU who is the one to walk away? I make clear what the subject is. I align my question to those who want to respond. Where is the bombardment there? I aint stopping at no KKK forums. I don't believe in their cause. I won't intrude on anyone's Satan revival, or stop by any wizard of Oz praise and worship services. I am approached in most cases though. I am accused of insanity. I am called silly names. But I have nothing but the messages of the bible. I don't need to call you an idiot in order to get my point across. I just wonder if people notice how angry people get when the name Jesus is uttered. Lights a fire under many. But, the bible did say that it would. No wonder
Ooopppss my mistake, I thought you were asking why people were being ugly to you when you talk about Jesus and I answered to that but after, reading your answers to others I realize you swing a mean bible and I have a headache already. LOL... so I will mossy on along...
But in closing I don't get angry when the name Jesus is uttered... I am a great fan of the man! In fact my favorite quote is from Ghandi is" I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.Ghandi speaks truth. A lot of Christians are missing the message as well. Thanks for stopping by, have a great evening!
And how do you know that you aren't one of the Christians that is missing the mark?
Ghandi is dead, Jesus is alove and well.
Genaea, keep on loving and serving God. You and I know that he is real and what He has done in our lives. Christianity has not had the greatest reputation, I agree. Not because God is not God, but the we are sometime poor representatives of a perfect God.
As a Christian, I believe we sometime talk too much and mirror too little of the true nature of God. The scripture says, "By your fruit you will know them." The most powerful witness, can often be the one that is silent! Actions do speak louder than words.
Concerning the ridiculousness of what Christians believe...The nature of faith is just that, faith...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It does not have to make sense, It is the reality of the one who is believing. It does not have to be justified, nor proven to be true, merely believed. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14. So, until you accept that He is God, you can never know, or understand God. Kind of a catch 22.
I was an agnostic, then an atheist, in a cult that sacrificed animals, mocked Christians and their beliefs, the whole gambit. In all that I was still searching for something real, something greater than myself. I found that in a personal relationship with God, through His son Jesus. Genaea, it is OK, if people do not believe what we believe, or if they are offended by the name of the one who set us free. Unbelief and offense, is their prerogative.Yes. The word is true and I thank you for pointing out that scripture. It was needed. My walk is not of arguing down the so-called opposition; but of illuminating the truth of the word for those who may be confused by false information. It is not a weight too heavy for me. These conversations have purpose for those who question and seek to know where truth is. Or better yet, have an ear to hear. They may not speak, but they are listening. They need to hear the truth. It is promised that they would.
Whoa... I completely missed your last paragraph the last time! What a testament. Tell it. How else can they hear (of the miracles and actual realities)? Not for "them" but for "the others".
In the body, there are many parts. This is part of my "part" I enjoy telling the truth. Those who are spiritual agree. Those who are seeking have info. Those who mind, don't matter. God is the author and finisher of my faith too. I am grateful. And I have the ability to articulate what I have learned; in spirit. I am comfortable here.And others feel free to articulate their truths. That is how civil society works.
Civil is a relative term. I think it is rude/ barbaric to "interrupt" a conversation to say what YOU think about the matter being discussed. Especially when all you input is a rejection. Mommy said, "if you aint got nutn nice to say, button it!!!
As I said before, i dont mind. But I want to be sure we agree first on who the rude and pushy intruder is.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_society
And I think a civil discussion is one where each person is given equal rights and courtesies. So if one person gets to spontaneously talk about Jesus, the other gets to reply saying why they think he is mythical.That is fine. However, did you notice that you and I were not discussing. You "encountered" a conversation in full-swing. It "grabbed your ear" and you stopped to INTERJECT objections. For sure you have a right in this forum. But me being kind and non-pushy will not stop at an OP of which I have no interest. Otherwise, I am LOOKING for an argument. Jesus was not that way. Neither are those who look to him for guidance. He don't "swing" that way
kind, gentle, loving, peaceful, humble, POWERFUL
- It's quite hilarious when Christians claim they were once atheists, then they talk as if they haven't had a rational or logical thought their entire lives.
It's not your belief in God people object to. Nobody really cares what goes on in your head. It's when you think your christian values should be everyone's values that you get objections. It's when you justify slavery for the bettering of a christian nation that people question your intelligence.
Listen to yourself going on a on about being bombarded with objections to your faith. It works both ways, it's dialogue. I had a conversation with one of my sons (15 years old) last night where he was telling me that hollywood has sold out and hollywood has lost it's integrity because they are making a dark (more like batman) Ironman movie. He got upset when I told him hollywood never had integrity and it's always and always will be about money. He became emotional and was stomping away when I told him that I'm just giving my opinion and he is still able to articulate his. He came back and we chatted some more. My point is stop making yourself out to be victimized. It's just conversation.Indeed. No one has the right to be agreed with. Just to be met with the level of civility they show others.
I an not making myself out to be anything. I pointed out that I am often the "victim" of rudeness and silliness because of my faith. I am ok with it.
And I'm telling you it's not because of your faith. If it's not you faith what could it be?
Rad Man is absolutely right. People are so sensitive when someone disagrees with their opinions or beliefs. If you are solid in your "faith" it would be of no great matter that people object to what you think.
Thank you for reiterating my solidity of faith
those who mind do not matter. I find it amusing that people are so enraged by my faith. Funny! Very, very funny!
For example, when I read the OP, God is Fake! Don't you agree??? I have nothing to say. This OP is ignored. I just have no interest in that discussion. But it is not so with my non-believing brothers and sisters. I find that they always stop by to tell me how crazy I sound no sweat. But it seems like pushing your hand into a meat grinder to me, that is painful I think at the very least, inconvenient.There we go!!!!!!! You can only see your side of the argument. You think all these people are trying to make you look or feel silly, but you don't notice that you think your nation is a Christian nation and if other American's don't like it they should leave.
Oh, the terrible pain of interacting with people who are different from me! Woe! Gnashing of teeth!
Everyone is out to get me boo hoo. I should disagree with others, but they are not allowed to disagree with me.
Again, I was here minding my own business. Out of nowhere...insult "storm". And I am the one called pushy and inconsiderate of others' viewpoint.
funnyfunnyfunny:)
Also, there are so many things that are more important. I don't need approval, just as much right to be "here" (Radman) as anyone else.
Oh??? I thought you were telling me that I should "suck it up". I thought you were saying that I should not speak upon my faith because it adds too much strife to the world around me. My bad
Talk about your faith as much as you want here. That's why we are here, but expect us to give us our point of view as well. You can tell me like others have that I'm going to hell. It's all good.
You should speak your faith when it is appropriate or necessary. Not just for your *own gratification* with an indifferent to the well-being of others.
Not true. I see the arguments from all sides. No one can make me feel anything. I know who I am. I know who I belong to. But I do get "personal" objections. Not just "your God is fake" but "you are ignorant and can't think for yourself and stuff like that
not from Christians though.I get all kinds of personal objections. I have been personally physically threatened by a Christian who didn't think I should talk about the bible and slavery. You're not he only one.
I'm the only one HERE.
no problem though. I don't mind being the "odd-ball" I think it becomes me.
Where is the cartoon depicting the science of war, the science used to develop weapons, the science used to destroy the environment, the arguments concerning technology and its destruction of the environment, etc.? The "religion kills people" argument is full of so many holes it is "cheesy".
You speak of indoctrination, yet I think many atheists and theists are just that - indoctrinated. Most individuals today who identify themselves as either atheists or theists have read something somewhere that sounds "good" to them and they go on repeating it (Richard Dawkins comes to mind - a man who thinks philosophy, which science is necessarily based on, is no longer of value), rather than looking deeper into the question(s) formed.
I think individuals interested in the topic of metaphysics need to truly understand what they are getting into and ask: where does logic come from and what is it based upon? Can something come from nothing (I mean, truly nothing, not just some other dimension or portion of the multiverse or even a God making something from nothing which is not Deity)? If all things are random then how do we explain "emergence" and ex nihilo, nihilo fit? Where do morals and ethics come from and what happens to society if we take that foundation away? Can mathematics as information and consciousness explain the mind-body problem? If philosophy, which is the foundation of science (based upon its various conclusions), is deemed worthless because we now have science, then what does that say for science once we take its foundation (a priori) away and downgrade the importance of its foundational findings which cannot ever be proven by the scientific method (see Laws of Thought)? Is it easier to believe in an infinite number of universes which cannot be seen or one intelligent being which cannot be seen, logically, or do we just chuck the invisible intelligent being in the "discard bin" and accept the less likely (in my mind) "infinite" number of invisible universes theory? What does life and purpose mean to a society under the various philosophical conclusions and are the supposed "true" answers actually worth revealing in the end, especially when we realise that by taking God out of the equation "truth" is nowhere near as solid a concept as we once thought?
There are plenty of questions which can be asked, which will make people think on both sides, and make them think really hard if the correct questions are asked and points are raised. It is not as simple as some think, and one faith, Christianity, is just one system which needs to defend itself against a mass of logical conclusions which one may come to based upon what we know we are capable of knowing.
For instance, in my mind, the Christian doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is just as insane and illogical as most atheist conclusions and I reject it outright as absurd because it is obvious that "from nothing, nothing comes"; therefore if God exists all which is, must be created from a part of God because if it was not, then God violates logic, and knowing my philosophy; therefore, violates the very rationing which leads us to philosophically believe in God in the first place (anything created must come from a Creator) - making creatio ex deo more logical.
My point is, that most people have not taken the time to develop their own philosophy and from there their theology (whether they realize they need to develop a theology for their "beliefs" or not - likely because they "believe" they have no "beliefs"; therefore, most have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to these topics.
I guess what I am saying is that it is really two things: 1) Christianity and monotheistic religions are dominant and therefore will get the brunt of arguments; and 2) most on both sides have no clue what the "root" of their thinking is. If you doubt that last statement then ask a Christian to both "theologically" and "philosophically" demonstrate their assertions, and an intelligent man will usually find them stumbling at some point (or at least admitting mere "belief"), In the same light, ask an atheist to "demonstrate" their assertions or alternatives scientifically (the smart ones, who should actually be agnostics if honest will avoid this) and you will eventually (given intelligent questions to their responses) find them fumbling about much the same.Wow - that is an awful lot of words to say nothing.
Can you show me some "insane," atheist conclusions please. Personally - I hate being labelled A-theist, simply because I don't accept that there can be a god. Am I an A-golfer because I don't play golf? No. Therefore the term "atheist," should not exist.
And - how can you study metaphysics?Atheists are still working on their "conclusions"
Now to me, that is insane.
Way too much much for me to comment on. I can tell you I became a non-believer all on my own. I was about 13 years old and this whole God thing kept me up at night. The logic just doesn't make any sense was my conclusion. You argue that all this could not have come from nothing, but you don't use that same logic to understand the God you believe in. We are told be knows everything and has always been and always will be. Ask yourself where did he come from? You are quick to say we had to come from somewhere, use that same logic to explain everything even God.
"Is it easier to believe in an infinite number of universes which cannot be seen or one intelligent being which cannot be seen, logically, or do we just chuck the invisible intelligent being in the "discard bin" and accept the less likely (in my mind) "infinite" number of invisible universes theory?"
No one is sure that there are an infinite number of universes and no one is sure there is a God because both of those things are currently invisible to us. There are an infinite number of galaxies that we can see. Let's just say that if we can't see it or detect it we don't no for sure it's there.Unless we truly listen to what's inside.
Keeping you awake is a sure sign of unrest since you did not get your "answer" you chucked the idea. God is still there. You knew it that/ those night/s. He speaks to you constantly. You just don't listen. Yry it just once.God doesn't speak at all. If you look at the concept of a God you will see it asks more questions then it answers.
He "doesn't speak to you" because you ignore, discount, and disregard. He is there. You just aint listening.
I'm just not delusional. I will not start lying to myself so as to become deluded.
Yet... You are in a "TOOTH FAIRY" forum, right??? You have spent all this time to try and "convince" me that "she" is imaginary??? Yes??? Who is the confused one again???
Yep I once psyched myself into believing that I heard the voice of Jesus, but that was the beginning of psychosis. I figured I could have just as easily heard the voice of Elvis, and got the same results...psychosis.
You all missed the point. We don't believe in God and Jesus because of anything we see it is by faith. You believed in Santa because you saw the results of that belief. If you stopped believing, what happened? You began to see things differently.
We believe because of faith and the results we see from prayer. Miracles, I smashed both ankles, the main bone on each foot that joins the foot and leg bones. One consultant at the hospital said there was nothing he could do and left. The other, a Muslim, put pens in the left one because it was in 5 pieces but the right one was only for so he left it. He did not try to destroy my faith by telling me they wouldn't heal, he just kept avoiding the what if when the x-rays looked bad. I can walk, with pain, with severe arthritis, but I can walk. When I mentioned I had 3 churches praying for me I found out his group had prayed too. We agreed God healed me because there was not other explanation for my out come. I even had physical therapists say, when I was teaching kindergarteners to skip, that they couldn't believe I could do it after such severe breaks. How can I doubt God?Which is it? You have contradicted your self here. First you say you believe by faith and not anything you see - then you claim you believe because you see miracles happen. If you consider pinning broken bones by medical doctors a miracle.
Surprised you bothered going to a hospital in the first place.Exactly, kids begin to understand make believe, yet adult religious believers don't.
Once again, we find believers not giving credit where credit is due. Why didn't God just heal you from the get go, why did you bother going to the hospital? Obviously, doctors are irrelevant when standing next to your faith.What an excellent catch! Mind boggling performance! The question is - why isn't G_d punctual? LOL!
Just understand that you all agreed upon delusion and willful ignorance.
At 22 it was determined that I had a heart defect. Then at 26 I found myself admitted to ICU. I was confined to the Cardiac ward for 2 weeks, were I didn't know if I would live or die. The doctors did everything they could to figure out my prognosis. Eventually I was able to leave the hospital, but about three years later, at 30 I had the worst attack ever. The pain was so severe, I wanted to die. I was admitted to the hospital, where I suspected I would expire. The doctors could not stabilize my heartbeat, and the pain was unbearable. I was angry that I was going to die young, but I hastened to just get it over with. For over a week, every morning that I woke up I was totally surprised that I had not expired. I also felt somewhat let down, because this meant I would have to go through the pain for yet another day. It took over a month to regain my health, but I still knew that this disorder would recur. But to my surprise, it has not occurred since...and that was over 20 years ago. In fact, all recent medical test that I have taken, show no signs of any heart disease, and I am as youthful as people half my age.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the silly, ancient myths, written thousands of years ago, by ignorant goat herders, because I never prayed, and during the whole time, while lying on my death bed, I never, once, changed my atheistic beliefs. Credit goes to the medical professionals and chance.God rains on the just as well as the unjust. You don't say God healed you and just maybe, he did not.
Your imaginary god didn't do anything. to think that nonexistent entities can magically come to life and affect reality suggests a serious psychotic disconnect.
Now you sound like a broken record.
Will you please look inside yourself to see the psychological absurdity? You are adamantly arguing your "Tooth Fairy" points. how ridiculous!!!Only responding to your repetitive insane comments. You keep inserting these irrelevant whimsical praises/attributions, of your delusional Jesus, into your responses, which I see as a symptom of an unbalanced state. Your mindless praising of your invisible friend answers nothing. You need to debate the real issues. Just reminding you...that's all. Christ Psychosis is unmerciful to the afflicted.
I know you believe because of blind faith. I was taught the same nonsense growing up. Blind faith is dangerous, it should not be taught to children because it opens them up to potential danger. How many children have been abused because of the blind faith of the children and of the parents?
At least one.
Blind faith??? Why is it that people who READ scientific materials and agree, think that they do not work from a "blind faith" perspective??? Because the book said "scientifically proven?
Why don't you understand that it takes just as much "faith" to believe the opposing view??? Cuz the books say proven scientific fact??? Get real with everyone. You have placed your faith in something else. None of us were there when any of it iccurred. And not many of us know how the "calculations" were done. And couldn't do any of them if "they" walked you through the process.
Oh, to be fooled by selfYou seem to think that all Atheists believe Science as opposed to religion. This is simply not he case. Science has nothing to do with my personal belief system. My disbelief in God has nothing to do with any science. Science explains the universe and has nothing to do with God. That being said all science can be tested. Starting up your computer is just the start. Explain electricity to me and do a few experiments you electricity can be touched. Blind faith is completely different. Would you let a pedophile babysit because he told you he won't touch her? That's one of the dangers of blind faith. It's dangerous.
You are missing the point. If you believe in whatever you believe be it evolution, creationism, buddhism, atheism, hinduism, sky diving...it ALL takes faith in something. Atheists, for starters, believe strictly based upon blind faith that God does not exist. Test all you want. Who verifies that the "test" was accurate? You? Doubt it
be real for real.And, of course, after science fails, the ONLY default that's rational would be to accept that Jesus Christ, through God, his father, is the creator of everything, and is the ultimate king of kings. Right? Also all shall bow before him one day, as he judges all for inclusion into the book of life. Right?
O...k...makes sense to me...wait!Wait all you want.
We have many options to choose from regarding faith. Some believe that Satan is Lord. It is ALL a matter of where YOUR faith lies. If my God is not real to you, then it will be that way for you always. No life after death...??? NOTHING to be concerned about.
Do you feel like Jacob???
I looked and look for evidence for a God, but there is none. The bible is full of flaws, the hospitals are full of people of every faith. Cancer doesn't discriminate by religion. Prayer doesn't work because if it did Christians would never get cancer.
Well I see your seemingly valid argument, but as I said before, God rains on the just as well as the unjust. That is biblical scripture. He does not promise good health. Though he promises good spiritual health if you follow instructions. He promises that it is appointed that man should die. The body is just "dust". It will be buried and eaten by worms. It has no value. The spirit is his forever. Now you choose where it spends eternity, but that is obviously of no concern to you. Pinocchio has no power. He was used to teach children a biblical lesson
Ok
scientific knowledge and terminologies befuddle me I rarely take it in. Science and math are my weakest areas. I wonder if that is by design Thanks for the most "sensible" response to date. As I said before, it all depends upon where you place your faith the "church" says it like this, "whose report do you believe?" The choir sings, " we shall believe the report of the Lord".
Maybe the Jesus thing offends people who think you should be focusing on your God, instead of focusing on the story of your God.
Maybe you are seen as being unintelligent because you are too smug in your perceived rightness, with no room for doubt. Doubt is one of the things that separates us from the animals.YES!!! I am do glad you said it
people are upset with me because I am sure while they still search for answers. Funny phenomenon. People don't like me being sure about something that they daily question. I do understand that. Thanks for bringing that to light
Call me whatsineva you want I am a child of the true king.
Dear Genaea-
The Bible tells us that we who follow Jesus Christ will be persecuted for our faith regardless of how gentle and respectful the delivery of the message is. Here in the Unites States we who love Him because we know Him are often shunned by others but in many parts of the world our dear brothers and sisters are being brutally massacred for it. Remember Genaea that there is a fierce battle taking place in this world that our human eyes cannot see. Although we cannot see it taking place it is very, very real. Gods Word speaks often about it and prepares us when we find ourselves under attack. The reason that unbelievers recoil upon the mention of the word Jesus is because it is a light that shines into the dark areas of their lives that they do not want exposed. But the light of Jesus inside of us does exactly that. Continue to stand by the One who stood by you Genaea and may He make your knees strong on the journey as you follow Him. God bless.
Syndegenaea, for me, it works like this. I understand your desire to talk about something that governs your life. That's fine. Just I don't want to hear about it because it bores me to destruction and, for me, it's rather like someone going on about the tooth fairy. Quite honestly, I don't talk about atheism either, and it would bore me just as much to talk about atheism all the time. To me, these are things that were settled a long time ago in my life, and just as I no longer talk about dolls, I've moved on.
I think the old saying that birds of a feather flock together (like draws like) holds true.
Best thing is just to keep your beliefs to yourself or to only talk to them in people in your own circle.I am in my circle
the circle was bombarded by hungry little foxes. It is expected that you all would join me. Kind of like coming to me and "my dolly's" tea party and burning your mouth with the "pretend" beverage over and over and over again. silly aint it???
Do an experiment. Start a forum about the honesty of Pinocchio whom we have found, actually lives in Queens, father to all the kids of the little old lady in the shoe. See how many people argue with you even for a day.This is your advice for someone on a religion and philosophy forum? Go figure.
This happens all the time. One comes to a conversation about Jesus to receive. No matter what they say.
That's coming from an ego with the inability to see the obvious. We are not here because we have doubts about Jesus, we are here to challenge and expose your absurd beliefs, and put them in the proper place that they belong...the garbage.
I haven't read the replies to you, and I'm certainly not out to change anyone's faith. You seem to feel offended by what others are saying to you, but by your own admission you say you talk about your beliefs often. You're putting others on the spot when they don't believe as you do, but you get offended when they do the same TO you.
As a person who is not Christian but believes that Jesus existed and that there are many truths in the Bible, I still have a problem with a few things about people who behave as you do. Here's why:
1. Very few people read the Bible even though they identify as Christian. I have a problem with people posing as "believers" in something they've never given serious thought to. Yes, that's what I'd call ignorance, as it stems from the same place that bigotry and racism come from - making snap judgments without enough information.
2. Those who do read the Bible often don't study or understand it. For example, many Christians condemn homosexuality based on the verses found in Leviticus that say man should not lie with another man. But they have NO idea why it was written, NO understanding that it was only meant to apply to a particular group of people. Many Christians insist that the Bible is 100% accurate and literal despite glaring contradictions that prove it isn't so. There are thousands and thousands of known errors, some of the traceable to a particular source, yet when confronted with well-researched information, these people insist on holding their position. Yes, that's an example of NOT thinking and instead, just blindly accepting whatever is convenient.
I have no problem with Christians or people of any other faith believing anything they want to. But I have a big problem with someone who repeatedly confronts me with something that's not valid again and again. If you want to believe everyone with green eyes is named Michael, that's your business, but if you tell me that, I might ignore your error or I might explain why I disagree. If you're offended and insist on believing all green-eyed folks are named Michael because you heard that somewhere or read it in a book, then I will have no choice but to conclude that ignorance governs your way of thinking.Yes, it is apparent that you have not read much of this exchange.
Here's why:
1. Had you read the OP, you would have noticed that there was no red "must participate" warning. So, clearly speaking the name of Jesus brought you to the conversation. I did not reach out and grab you. You came to me.
2. There are a few people participating in this conversation who do read and understand the bible, though you clearly are NOT one of them...you are here. What were you calling ignorance, again?
3. Homosexuality is another of those sexual sins that the Lord detests. We must worship him in spirit and TRUTH. You cannot hide your YOUness from God. He knows your very thoughts. Take your burden to the Lord; he can handle it. He has room for you. And his mercy is everlasting. Faith in Jesus as the "cleansing agent" is what makes you acceptable to the father. Not your sexual status.
4. You were not confronted. "Convicted" is the proper term.There you go...challenging and insulting a person anointed by God to be a minister, essentially challenging God. Do you not understand just how serious blasphemy is?
God made a place for those who blaspheme...a place of sulfer, burning flesh and gnashing of teeth.
I would pray for you, but you have entered the point of no forgiveness. This is morbidly serious!
...Oh the humanity!!!If you remember nothing else I say, remember this: Not all who cry Lord, Lord are his. Only he knows.
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but those things that come out. From the lips, to God's ears. From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
genaea, without reading anyone else's response to you, let me answer your question. I am a skeptic, an atheist, and a humanist. I never, never, never talk about it. In fact, the only time I bring it up is when I am confronted by a Christian who wants to talk about 'their faith.'
The only way I can explain why I don't talk about something like that is that I don't see a necessity for talking about brushing my teeth, paying my electricity bill, or putting my make up on. They are things that are just part of me, and they are so fundamentally part of me that I've long ago become accustomed to them. To me, having a belief about who one is is fundamental to everyone, and, unless someone asks, it's a bit rude to assume that they want to hear.
Why do they assume that you are unintelligent and brainwashed?
Well, there is more than adequate research that confirms a correlation between the highest intelligence and atheism and that the less intelligent one is, the more likely one is to believe in religion. One is that? Because analysis of the facts leads the most highly intelligent to believe that there is no god.
So why would people say that it's brainwashing? Because human brain chemistry believes what it hears over and over again. For instance, if one is sitting in a white walled room, and the instructor tells one over and over again that the walls are black, after a while, when asked what color the walls are 95% of the students will say that the walls are black. After a while, they will be absolutely adamant that the walls are black even when provided with absolute evidence that the walls are white. This is how the human brain works. It's how advertising works. It's how propaganda works. It's how learning works. It's how indoctrination works. One learns and accepts as truth what one hears over and over again, despite evidence to the contrary.
There is one exception to this. Throughout Mother Nature, one in twenty of the mammalian species, is born with a different brain chemistry to others. That is the brain chemistry of leaders. They do not believe things so easily and are not so easy to brainwash.
Your last issue is why people call you stupid because of your beliefs. Well, I guess the fact that peole are highly intelligent doesn't particularly make them infinitely patient. After a while, they just have had enough of people being so rude as to talk about their personal beliefs systems to them. If someone tells you that they are an athiest, that's not a signal to try and share your 'point of view.' It's a signal to drop the topic because they don't want to talk about it. I get rude when I've clearly stated that I'm an atheist, skeptic, and humanist, and the Christian carries on talking about it instead of changing the topic. At that point, I will just say, "You're indoctrinated, stupid, and plain rude. Bye."Wow Sophia, thank you for your thoughts. It is obvious, however that you have not read the comments posted. Nor did you read "MUST RESPOND" in the OP
Intelligent is relative. To me, I fit the description. But I have heard many atheists, yourself included, who speak without having an idea about what they are speaking of. That is not an intelligent act. The intelligent at least seek to become informed about their opinions. I know that I display intelligence, if nothing else. Inform yourself
People call me stupid, yourself included, because the Lord is my shepherd. I follow where he leads. Unfortunately, people do not recognize how intelligent it makes me.
I do not internalize the rudeness, this is just conversation, I know who I am. And I know a bit about you too, but this is not the time to speak on YOUR shortcomings. This conversation is about Jesus.
How rude of you to join the conversation to throw stones haphazzardly. but it does not bother me. Stay; learn something."People call me stupid, yourself included, because the Lord is my shepherd. I follow where he leads. "
People call you stupid because you follow those persons who tell you they are talking for god. You do not question what is told you, but accept the authority of your parents and priest who tell you bible is the word of god, while in fact it was written by humans who has no more knowledge about god than you or me.
Intelligence is the ability to use reason and logic to analyse information and use it.
You simply accept the statements of authority without questioning its rationality. Being first in school doesn't make you intelligent , but only the one with a good memory. It is the analysis and application without prejudice is that matters.Thank you again for your opinion. Since I know who you are, I know exactly where to place it.
I follow Jesus. If nothing else, that is apparent.
The bible was written by humans who were present when Jesus was here. I trust their judgment. I trust that the bible was written for me to be informed about the things of God that humans of many centuries have also been informed about. It keeps things on a more even keel. Since the words are written for all to see, there is much less "speculation" and more tangible EVIDENCE that the words in my heart are true.
In the critical thinking course that you speak of, I was the A student, not because of my good memory (thank you for noticing) but because I listen; and I am able to use reason and logic to analyse the information that I use. Though your uninformed observation does not really show that you have the same ability. Critical thinking exams require analytical thought, not memory
Analysis should be weighed against what is ALREADY known. You cannot change your mind according to the weather, and call yourself informed. Some things you already know. You build on that. Not new PUBLIC OPINION POLLS. Again, I follow Jesus.
Application without prejudice??? You do that???That shows a real lack of education. None of the gospels were eyewitness accounts. Luke and Mark are disciples of Paul, who according to history and bible has never seen Jesus. John and Mathew are copies of Mark and Mathew clearly show the extent one can lie as none of the prophesies Mathew site has anything to do with Jesus.
That is what we all say. You trust them without using reason and logic.
You choose to see only that parts which are of your liking and either ignore or downplay the bad parts.
In school, before the exam all the exercise are repeated many times that you will be able to regurgitate what ever form the question is asked. If you use apply reason and logic, it will be seen in your arguments. Instead you compartmentalised it in your brain for examination purpose and never to be used in real world.
Reason says a murderer hate not love, but you say a murderer love, where is the application of reason and logic?In school, before the exam all the exercise are repeated many times that you will be able to regurgitate what ever form the question is asked. If you use apply reason and logic, it will be seen in your arguments. Instead you compartmentalised it in your brain for examination purpose and never to be used in real world.
Reason says a murderer hate not love, but you say a murderer love, where is the application of reason and logic? When you say Intelligent humans are created, you either imply that the god that created humans is not intelligent or is simply contradicting yourself. And unfortunately you seem not to understand the meaning of 'contradiction'.I'm doing this course which starts next week. It's how to think and argue...
https://www.coursera.org/course/thinkagain
Free from Duke University.Excellent course, I found this comment to be rather humorous...
"What is the coolest thing I'll learn if I take this class?
Nasty names (equivocator!) to call people who try to fool you with bad arguments."
Well damn... If you're "unintelligent" I'm a monkey who builds space rockets.
Please, for heaven's sake, would the participants please ignore this Jessica? If you ignore her, she will go away eventually. After all, she told you to leave her alone.
That was my suggestion earlier, an you have put it very clearly, it's the right way to do; let someone else to " educate " her
You have the right to retain your faith and to practice your faith every moment of every day. Sadly as you are becoming aware there are many Jesus phobes out there who will not tolerate any mention of the Savior. But looking at the people who are Jesus phobic they lead very empty and tedious lives. Those who live faith based lives report a deeper sense of satisfaction and fulfillment in life than those who have no faith. Keep your faith and I hope your journey becomes better and better.
And just who gave you this information? Someone has been filling you with lies.
Yeah, that's why Sweden is the happiest country in the world, and has the lowest number of believers.
But of course you can't see the absurdity in your ridiculous statement.
Do some research. Your religion causes more negativity than anything.
What drives me nuts is the people that go into inconsequential history from unheard of historians and expect us to change what we believe. Can you imagine changing your beliefs every time some new person comes up with obscure history from some insignificant person? I know Whom I believe.
So do you still believe the earth is flat?
Inconsequential writers wrote gospels and people believed it through centuries including you, only now historians are trying to get the facts right. You know that no 'historian of consequence' was able to establish that there was a town named Nazerath at the time of Jesus, but still he is called Jesus of Nazerath.
So whom do you believe?I never thought the world was flat. What made you think that? Regarding Nazareth, I just did a search. It looks like those who try to discredit Christianity all study the same talking abouts. The tactic is to put a Christian on the defensive.
I maintain ... you guys can believe whatever you want to believe. That is what I do. I am flattered that so much attention has been focused on my thoughts.
Enjoy the pagan holiday guys! Relax!Why didn't you think the earth was flat? Bible says so, and people believed that same till somebody found earth is spherical.
You shouldn't have changed your belief!
Even the church couldn't establish that there was a city of Nazerath, though they made up a 'house were Jesus lived', just like the shroud.
Discredit? is it like changing the end of world to end of Jews, as you made out in the elaborate reply to rad man? A generation is not a generation and world is just Jerusalem!
"Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'"
How many stars fell from sky?The word which was translated as "Earth" was the same word as translated when Cyrus the Great said "the Lord has given all the kingdoms of the earth ...." Did Cyrus conquor the whole earth? No he didn't and he knew that he didn't! SOooo that word was NOT refering to the Planet earth.
Q. Discredit? is it like changing the end of world to end of Jews
ME ... Again, translation discrepency. Where does scripture say "The world will end"?
Q. "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'"
How many stars fell from sky?
ME In 69 AD Mt Vesuvius errupted and according to Pliney the younger, for almost a week he could not see his own hand inches in front of your own face, the winds were moving the ash and sulphur in a south easterly direction toward Jerusalem.
A few years ago when the farmers in mexico were burning their fields their fires got out of controll. We in Houston couldn't see the sun because the skys were overcast from the smoke. How much more overcast would it have been if a volcanic eruption the magnitude of the 69 eruption had been taking place? We would not be able to see1/3 of the sun or the moon and stars.Interesting, how a jew got what is said by Cyrus. Cyrus was the king of persians. he hadn't conqered egypt(Cambysses did) or india. He did went to greece. He died fighting the Masagatai. As the emperor and an ambitious person he might have thought that the he was given the whole earth to be conquered, but that will not make earth flat. And haven't read anything else from bible? there are many other references where it is plainly stated that earth is a "circle".
They all saw stars falling from sky? As far as I know star is larger than earth though the ancients thought it is small, and a single star why a small asteroid can destroy a large area of earth. So did god mistook asteroid for a star?
Is it because earth is the centre of the universe that every star is gravitating towards earth?
I'm amazed at the all the God-haters there are up in here! It's one thing to not believe, but some of y'all are bashing the religion. It saddens me.
that's a misnomer. You can't hate something that you don't believe exists.
Yes, we should all stand up for Thor, our god.
It is known that the name Jesus is translated from the from the Greek name Iesuos which is translated from the Hebrew name Yehowshuwa. And as you can well see that Jesus is not at all similar to the true name Yehowshuwa. So when you start speaking about Jesus being the son of god or god himself, it shows you are only repeating what you have been taught. That you haven't searched the truth for yourself. It also states in the bible that Satan is out to deceive everyone, the very elect if it were possible. That is why we should always be searching for the truth, and to find the truth we have to seek our Father Yehowah (True Hebrew name of the Almighty) Yehowah is truth.
So the question is do you want to accept Jesus or do you accept Yehowshuwa. Yehowshuwa came in his Father's name. Jesus is a false name.Good thoughts. I just think that if you go to the bible to seek answers, then you believe what it says. The bible says to seek the truth, but the truth is to be found, for sure, in the bible; for me and many others. The bible speaks of Jesus being the son of God. Now, if there are other names (and I do believe that there are many) then they speak of the same entity. Jesus is the son of God, according to the bible. So close, that the bible speaks of them being one (as the bible speaks of husband and wife being one) It is sad that people get so caught up in wording that they miss the message.
You quote the bible, yet, don't believe what it says??? Now that to me, is the deceit that is used to confound the messages of Christianity. Satan deceives many this way. Read the bible, quote what it says, now search for the "true" meanings. It is a ghost-chase that haunts the very elect.
The Lord cannot do much with a mind, where knowledge is, that is free-willed. The heart is where we meet God and find his truths. The bible leads in the right direction.Yes I believe the bible, but realized that it is translated from both Hebrew and Greek, so to get the true understanding you have to look at the original script they were translated from. That is where you learn that certain things are incorrectly translated. Like the name Yehowshuwa and Yehowshuwa said that the greatest commandment is:
Mark 12 28....Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Yehowshuwa answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear , O Israel; Yehowah our God is one Yehowah: 30 And thou shalt love Yewowah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
He quoted Deut 6:4 which has the Father's name written in the Hebrew Script. As you see we are to worship his father Yehowah with all our heart mind and soul.
So why are people turning to Jesus, it is a false name.
A person does not have to be a Christian to believe the bible Christ is another false title. They were waiting for a Messiah not a Christ! This is another subtle deception done through mistranslation. Therefore you cannot accept mainstream doctrine, it is under the control of Satan, the bible tells us that quite clearly.
And the great dragon was cast out , that old serpent, called the Devil, and Rev 12:9 Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying , Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?Ok, so since the texts changed the name, they are incorrect? No. We Americans say, Love "God" with all your heart...etc. Same message. Same God. Love him is the message. Some miss it because the name is different??? Also, they were looking for a messiah not a Christ??? Did you really mean to type that?
Lastly, Jesus is followed because he was the most perfect example of God-following that we have. We know his instructions were impeccable. The Father is on the highest level. Jesus is revered for the work that he did. Correctly, the father is the only one praised and worshipped. Jesus is thanked and appreciated for his death and advocacy for us.Can you tell me where I can get an Aramaic keyboard?
I seem to have difficulty in typing His name...
The fact is, we read English and the bible has been translated from Aramaic/Hebrew through Greek, into Latin and finally into English, which has produced the name Jesus for the Messiah.
My name would by Yochanan in it's original form, yet it has come out as John
English form of Iohannes, the Latin form of the Greek name Ιωαννης (Ioannes), itself derived from the Hebrew name יוֹחָנָן (Yochanan) meaning "YAHWEH is gracious".
Personally I believe that God can speak to us in any language, and is big enough to accept that we call upon Him... not His name.
Incidentally, I went through a period when I called myself Yochanan when I was following the Hebraic Roots path, which thankfully led right back around to the Christ I know.In a nutshell!
Thanks. Wording is just not that important. He knew that the languages would be difficult to translate one to another. That is exactly why he gave us different languages. Not so that we could not talk to him; but so that we could not effectively speak to eachother. He knows all languages. We get confused language to language. However, he does not. He knows when we call him; be it Yahweh, Jehovah, King, Jack or Booger He reads our hearts (souls) and he does not get confused. The important thing is that we call him.First I would like to say the the names Yehowah and Yehowshuwa is the correct English transliteration of the Hebrew names. Here are some bible quotes that states the importance of the names.
Psalm 103:1 KJV
Bless YEHOWAH, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalm 105:1 KJV
O give thanks unto YEHOWAH; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people.
Psalm 105:3 KJV
Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek YEHOWAH
Psalm 106:47 KJV
Save us, O YEHOWAH our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise.
Psalm 96:2 KJV
Sing untoYEHOWAH, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.
Psalm 92:1 KJV
It is a good thing to give thanks unto YEHOWAH, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High:
These are some of the verses that shows the importance of the name. And when Yehowshuwa told us to pray we say: Our Father who art in heaven Hallowed be thy nameWow!!! So I am condemned if I don't know Hebrew languages? Not! Please don't "argue over words" can you find that scripture??? Blessed and holy are his names. Some of us just cannot pronounce his "real" name. We have an advocate with the father though. I am pretty darn smart according to my peers. I can't even get the vowels correct in my head. Will I be considered slack, or at a risadvantage? (Please say you don't understand that last word so you may see what I mean)
If my people who are called by my name (his name aint genaea, for sure) would umble themselves and pray... Let us be fair and speak about important matters. How can we not get upset with such opposition? Let us find a common ground.I am speaking about important matters, I am talking about our very soul. But all Christians have been indoctrinated by their churches, and while they were teaching you their doctrine they also dimmed you eyes and your hearing so much that it is almost impossible for you to hear and see clearly.
Your answers clearly lets me see you as such a person.
I suggest that you read this hub
http://ro-jo-yo.hubpages.com/hub/Lost-TruthI'm really curious, did you read your post? Like several times, maybe, for clarity.
You do realize that you're actually demanding others to believe what you want them to believe from the position of arbiter?
While it may not be my place to defend Christian indoctrination, I certainly would defend a Christians right to decide not to break it, regardless of it's insidious origins, intents and effects.In most of my answers I try to quote the bible, this is a book that Christians say they believe in also. If you see it as me demanding others to believe what I want them to believe, so be it. I can only state the truth as I see it, so here is another quote: Psalm 145:21 KJV
My mouth shall speak the praise of YEHOWAH: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.And as such: My mouth shall speak the praise of God. And let all flesh bless his holy name forever and ever. If and only if you can pronounce it??? Nope. Bless it. Whatever you may call him.
If I saw Mein Kampf as the truth and began demanding people eliminate the Jews because it is Gods work, others wouldn't be blaming the book for what I am telling people to do.
That's why your demands do nothing but cause conflict and have no other redeeming or positive qualities whatsoever.Oh really, and what redeeming or positive qualities are in your comments? And did you ever stop and realize why Hitler brainwashed (indoctrinated) they German people into believing that it is OK to murder the Jews? Because Hitler, who was taught by the Jesuits, was to help stomp out the name of the Almighty Yehowah, which all the Jewish people knew. And why do you think the Catholic Church had bible burnings? Because they have been trying to stomp out the true name for a long time.
What? Do you people wear shades while reading my comments???
The church is responsible for the wrong info that taught me as a kid. I didn't know any better. Christians really scared me back then. As I matured, I sought the truth on my own along with a prayer for understanding. Is that still some sort of indoctrination? I think from your last statement that your senses are dimmed and your hearing impaired but hey, just MY opine. Erbody's got one or two.
"Wording is just not that important. He knew that the languages would be difficult to translate one to another. That is exactly why he gave us different languages. Not so that we could not talk to him; but so that we could not effectively speak to eachother. "
If you believe this, then you must be defying God's will by even attempting what He didn't mean for you to know. What nonsense!
Exceptionally well said , John .
It is this enormously in comprehantion gift of FAITH getting us close to God to know him, to understand him, communicate with him and to work with him in supernatural
Elohim was also used by the Hebrews as a name for God. And a few others as well.
Maybe the issue us that when you are "often" talking about it, it is off topic and the person your are speaking to finds it intrussive and annoying.
By contrast I doubt I mention my atheism (also important to me) more than once a week across all of my interactions on and offline.Im not trying to disrespect you in the least, Im just not sure I understand.
I can see why your scientific beliefs etc would be important to you, but Atheism is a disbelief in the existence of a deity, as you know. Where as a person who has placed their faith in God has a relationship with Him, loves Him, is loved by Him, lives and dies for Him, offers their time and a portion of their finances back to God and trusts Him with every facet of their lives. It seems to me like you can't quite compare the two perspectives. It seems natural for someone of faith to talk about the being they have faith in, not that they should push God on anyone who isn't interested in hearing.You are beautiful Beth.
I would like to say though, that pushing is not my cup... I want to show people what I know. I want them to tell me what they know. Just so happens that I am convinced about what I know. Others... not so much.I knew I should have read the whole thread... I didn't know what anyone else had said, I was just responding to that one post.
No, we all share our beliefs here. It's give and take, back and forth. I just meant in general, I don't see anything wrong with sharing what is most important to you if youre not pushing your faith on someone who would prefer you to keep it to yourself.
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago0
No one should refer to you as unintelligent for what you think. But, out of the utmost respect for the figure of Jesus and his teachings, I do find myself offended by many interpretations. A lot of things are attributed to belief in Jesus that have nothing to do with anything he appeared to say and I think he would be saddened by the high horse of Christianity.
He was saddened by the high-horse of the Jews of his time. Christianity is the result. But, again, we have found many ways to ignore or discount the messages of this life. Humility is key.
I think that we have a lot in common (Hi Emile!. The heart is sensitive to God, no matter who or what you believe. We make the choice to say yes or no daily (sorry James:) because each day, we are faced with options to do this or that. Right or wrong. EVERYDAY.
Intelligence is not what the Lord requires, if it were, that would be a set-up. Not everyone has even enough of that to tie our shoes properly. Knowledge of his will is required. To each of us, he gave a measure of that. We decide what we do with it. Misinterpretation is not even counted against you if you honestly don't understand what he "actually" meant by his instruction. He corrects you eventually. Yet, it is still up to you to "stand" corrected. Try not to be upset by misunderstanding/misinterpretation. We are all trying to "get it". Jesus advocates for those who "know not what they do" God understands our condition.Amen to Emile R. very clear understanding of Jesus.
Things have gone off subject, genaea, but I think all of us can learn from these posts. If nothing else, it can strengthen everyone's debating skills. Most of the conversation is very polite even when people disagree. A professor told us one time that is why teenagers argue so much. They are learning how to disagree without being disagreeable.
- Sri Tposted 12 years ago0
In a public, anonymous forum there will be many opinions. It's ok to follow whatever you choose. The problem that some people have with Christians and many religions is their idea that their path is the only way to God. This is one of the causes of religious wars all over the world. The reality is, people are getting results from all kinds of religions. Even if you don't try to preach to others, the bible says spread the gospel. I see people on the street everyday trying to convert others. Nothing wrong with that. If it works for them, great. But if we are wise we must realize that many people have gotten results before and after Christianity was in effect. A public forum is opinion and entertainment.
Hou are right................................there is God
The bottom line is that you talk a lot about God you require people with other beliefs to either ignore you or rebut you.
If those outcomes are undesirable to you, maybe give it a rest.Well honestly, I prefer to be ignored by those who don't want to hear me. That is why I make so clear, my topic. But oh! If I say Christian or Jesus, the "little foxes" come-a-circling
It is not REALLY surprising. It just helps me to have more faith. The bible said that this all would occur. How could they have known so long ago? I am just in AWE of the holy spirit. I hate that you are not. But I don't hate you. How bout those cart-wheels??? I wholeheartedly agree with you genaea.... the foxes come out to bite, the intellectual humanists come at you, guns blazing.... The Word tells us tho' that He (Jesus) offended folk, and that if we follow Him, we will offend too. and Like you, I get tired of the offense....
If you think people expressing a view are attacking you this explains, perhaps, why you perceive others reacting in a hostile way to your religious talk. Maybe they are just saying what they think, and you perceive this as an attack when it is not. Why should they have to ignore in silence, while you feel free to speak out?
There is only one way to perceive, "unintelligent, indoctrinated, unable to think for myself". Such expressions are of a "personal" nature. Such expressions are meant to belittle and demean. I don't have to be really intelligent to know when I am being insulted, simply because I believe God. Your statement is more of the same. Piss down my neck; tell me it is raining???
i know when i am being insulted I perceive pretty well. However, I do not consider it a barrier. I know who I am. And I know WHOSE I am. Your opinions are just that.
- Justsilvieposted 12 years ago0
As I said before I have no problem with any religion. I think it the far right posing as Christians that turns people off on Christianity in America! Here are some great examples Now can you honestly say Jesus Christ would want these followers?
Ann Coulter
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."
"Not all Muslims may be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."
"Being nice to people is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity, as opposed to other religions whose tenets are more along the lines of 'kill everyone who doesn't smell bad and doesn't answer to the name Mohammed'"
Bailey Smith
"With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew."
Beverly LaHaye (Concerned Women for America)
"Yes, religion and politics do mix. America is a nation based on biblical principles. Christian values dominate our government. The test of those values is the Bible. Politicians who do not use the bible to guide their public and private lives do not belong in office."
Bob Dornan (Rep. R-CA)
"Don't use the word 'gay' unless it's an acronym for 'Got Aids Yet'"
David Barton (Wallbuilders)
"There should be absolutely no 'Separation of Church and State' in America."
David Trosch
"Sodomy is a graver sin than murder. – Unless there is life there can be no murder."
Fob James (Governor of Alabama)
"Behind this judicial wall of separation there is a tyranny of lies that will fall... I say to you, my friends, let it fall!"
"A good butt-whipping and then a prayer is a wonderful remedy."
Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church)
"If you got to castrate your miserable self with a piece of rusty barb wire, do it."
"Hear the word of the LORD, America, fag-enablers are worse than the fags themselves, and will be punished in the everlasting lake of fire!"
"You telling these miserable, Hell-bound, bath house-wallowing, anal-copulating fags that God loves them!? You have bats in the belfry!"
"American Veterans are to blame for the fag takeover of this nation. They have the power in their political lobby to influence the zeitgeist, get the fags out of the military, and back in the closet where they belong!"
"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death."
Gary Bauer (American Values)
"We are engaged in a social, political, and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets the right to teach our children what to believe."
Gary North (Institute for Christian Economics)
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant–baptism and holy communion–must be denied citizenship."
"This is God's world, not Satan's. Christians are the lawful heirs, not non-Christians."
Gary Potter (Catholics for Christian Political Action)
"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil."
George Bush Sr. (President of the United States)
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
George W. Bush (President of the United States)
"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."*
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."
"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."
*Comment about Wiccans in the military
Henry Morris (Founder, Institute for Creation Research, died 2006)
"When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data."
J. B. Stoner (White Supremacist) (1924 - 2005)
"We had lost the fight for the preservation of the white race until God himself intervened in earthly affairs with AIDS to rescue and preserve the white race that he had created.... I praise God all the time for AIDS."
"AIDS is a racial disease of Jews and Niggers, and fortunately it is wiping out the queers. I guess God hates queers for several reasons. There is one big reason to be against queers and that is because every time some white boy is seduced by a queer into becoming a queer, means his white bloodline has run out."
James Dobson (Focus on the Family)
"Those who control the access to the minds of children will set the agenda for the future of the nation and the future of the western world."
"State Universities are breeding grounds, quite literally, for sexually transmitted diseases (including HIV), homosexual behavior, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, alcoholism, and drug abuse."
"Today's children... They're damned. They're gone."
James Kennedy (Center for Reclaiming America)
"The Christian community has a golden opportunity to train an army of dedicated teachers who can invade the public school classrooms and use them to influence the nation for Christ."
James Watt (Secretary of the Interior)
"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand."*
*Secretary of the Interior in the Reagan Admin. Responsible for National Policy regarding the Environment
Jay Grimstead (Coalition on Revival)
"We are to make Bible-obeying disciples of anybody that gets in our way."
Jerry Falwell (1933 - 2007)
"We're fighting against humanism, we're fighting against liberalism...we are fighting against all the systems of Satan that are destroying our nation today...our battle is with Satan himself."
"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters."
"The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc."
"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."
"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."
Jesse Helms (Senator R-NC, 1973-2003)
"The New York Times and Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves. Just about every person down there is a homosexual or lesbian."
"All Latins are volatile people. Hence, I was not surprised at the volatile reaction."
"Your tax dollars are being used to pay for grade-school classes that teach our children that cannibalism, wife-swapping and murder of infants and the elderly are acceptable behavior."
"Homosexuals are weak, morally sick wretches."
Jimmy Swaggart (Jimmy Swaggart Ministries)
"The Media is ruled by Satan. But yet I wonder if many Christians fully understand that. Also, will they believe what the Media says, considering that its aim is to steal, kill, and destroy?"
"Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest."
"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it...Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory."
John Ashcroft (Attorney General)
"Civilized people – Muslims, Christians, and Jews – all understand that the source of freedom and human dignity is the Creator."
John Whitehead (Rutherford Institute)
"The [Supreme] Court, by seeking to equate Christianity with other religions, merely assaults the one faith. The Court in essence is assailing the true God by democratizing the Christian religion."
Joseph McCarthy (1908 - 1957)(Senator, R-WI, 1947-1957)
"Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between Communistic Atheism and Christianity."
Joseph Morecraft (Chalcedon Presbyterian Church)
"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol."
Joseph Scheidler (Pro-Life Action League)
I would like to outlaw contraception...contraception is disgusting – people using each other for pleasure."
Kay O'Connor (Kansas Senate Republican)
"I'm an old-fashioned woman. Men should take care of women, and if men were taking care of women today, we wouldn't have to vote."
Keith A. Fournier (Catholic Way)
"We need a legal strategy which protects the rights of those of us who hold Christian convictions which will afford us the opportunity to contend once again for the mind of this culture."
Laura Schlessinger
"I want to coin a phrase here, and I don't mind help. What would be the communication version of "ethnic cleansing?" Because that's what in particular the homosexual activists try to do."
Lester Roloff (1914 - 1982)(Texas Homes for Wayward Youth)
"Better a pink bottom than a black soul."*
*Roloff opened a chain of homes for "wayward" youth in the state of Texas; he was later jailed in 1973 and again in 1975 for child abuse due to the punitive punishment techniques used in his homes. He was then specifically given permision to re-open his homes by Governor George W Bush.
Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin
“George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States, he was appointed by God.”
Pat Buchanan (Presidential Candidate)
"Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free."
"There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The "negroes" of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours."
"Rail as they will about 'discrimination,' women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism."
Pat Robertson (Christian Coalition)
"The Islamic people, the Arabs, were the ones who captured Africans, put them in slavery, and sent them to America as slaves. Why would the people in America want to embrace the religion of slavers?"
"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different...More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."
"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals – the two things seem to go together."
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."
"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist."
"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."
"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."
"[Planned Parenthood] is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism – everything that the Bible condemns."
Paul Cameron
"I think that actually AIDS is a guardian. That is I think it was sent, if you would, about forty years ago, to destroy Western civilization unless we change our sexual ways. So it's really a Godsend."
"Homosexuality is a crime against humanity."
"Causes of homosexuality include: 'sex with animals'"*
"Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals."
*Paul Cameron was discharged from the American Psychological Association, the Nebraska Psychological Association, and the American Sociological Association due to his unethical practices and biased research regarding Homosexuals; however his work is still referenced by many fundamentalist organizations as credible.
Randall Terry (Operation Rescue)
"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
"Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God's law, on the ten Commandments. No apologies."
"I don't think Christians should use birth control. You consummate your marriage as often as you like – and if you have babies, you have babies."
"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed."
"There is going to be war, [and Christians may be called to] take up the sword to overthrow the tyrannical regime that oppresses them."
Jerry Vines (Southern Baptist Convention)
"They would have us believe that Islam is just as good as Christianity. Christianity was founded by the virgin-born son of God, Jesus Christ. Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, the last one of which was a nine-year-old girl."
Rick Santorum (Senator R-PA, 1995-2006)
"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [Gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything!"
Robert Simonds (Citizens for Excellence in Education)
"As the church watches from the sidelines, the ungodly elect atheists and homosexuals to school boards and legislatures to enact policies and laws that destroy our Christian children and discriminate against Christian families."
"Atheistic secular humanists should be removed from office and Christians should be elected...Government and true Christianity are inseparable."
"We'll take away their power and their money. Money comes from students. We'll break their backs by taking 24 million kids out of the public schools."
Robert T. Lee (Society for the Practical Establishment of the Ten Commandments)
"Raising your children under Americanism or any other principles other than true Christianity is child abuse."
"You do not have the right to be wrong, regardless of what any man-made or demonic charter says."
"Democracy originated in the mind of a rational being who has the deepest hatred for God."
"Do you realize that the only thing that gives democracy existence is sin? The absence of democracy is perfect obedience to god."
"The best way to insure the earth is never over populated is for sensible and righteous governments to clear all forms of atheism and heresy."
Ronald Reagan (1911 - 2004)(President of the United States)
"For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ."
Roy Moore (Former Alabama Judge)
"If they want to get the Commandments, they're going to have to get me first."*
"Worship With Your Vote"
Rush Limbaugh
"Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society."
"If you commit a crime, you're guilty."
"There is only one way to get rid of nuclear weapons... use them"
Star Parker (Coalition on Urban Renewal & Education)
"Anybody that believes in separation of church and state needs to leave right now."
Tony Evans (Promise Keepers)
"The demise of our community and culture is the fault of sissified men who have been overly influenced by women."
William Rehnquist (1924 - 2005)(Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court)
"The 'wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned."
Michael Savage (Savage Nation)
"Oh, you're one of the sodomites. You should only get AIDS and die, you pig. How's that? Why don't you see if you can sue me, you pig. You got nothing better than to put me down, you piece of garbage. You have got nothing to do today, go eat a sausage and choke on it."*
I can on and on and on with the hate that is spouted in this country in the name of Christianity but I will just say "my 2nd next favorite quote "Jesus protect me from your followers"That list was way too long. Your passion cannot be enveloped in one sitting. After about fifty of those crazy statements, my eyes went numb. However, I get your point, and have ONLY one quote for you: "Ye have heard that it was said, thou shall love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you; and pray for them that despitefully use and persecute you." Jesus the Christ and Messiah and king of kings made that statement to those who follow him. Now you have a CLEARER picture of what the "following" of Christ, looks like. See??? There is a difference between being "Christian" and following Christ.
receive it? But, we've moved well beyond that kind of archaic thinking because it is as meaningless as it is barbaric. We need not 'love thy neighbor or love thine enemies' as it an ideal that is based entirely on the diminishing of love to a base emotion that can be tossed around to anyone and everyone. From what property, description or characteristic of 'love' does one offer their enemies?
Love is an emotion that is meant to be far more important, intimate and profound in relationships than just a "How-do-you-do" to ones neighbor.
Just check out what happens when you say, "I love you" to your spouse and then watch what happens when you say it to your neighbors spouse.
The correct word to use is respect, not love. Respect your neighbors and most likely, they'll respect you and all will be good in the neighborhood.
And, just look at the mess Christians made of that one.He left a Mac Pro though, for one of his notorious earthly inheritors to spam the internet.
It might die out of weight loss, anyway. I have just realized that I look quite sane.
I just figured out who A Troubled Man really is. Her real name is Marie! hahaha
'mariexotoni'
http://mariexotoni.hubpages.com/You posted that exact comment with another sock puppet. It is interesting and disturbing at the same time why a person will create one sock puppet after another with the intention of getting banned. I wonder what causes such behavior?
You're one click away from knowing the world, scientifically that is.
I wrote those hubs. And you have none. Must be responding.
A Troubled Frustration.
A Troubled Man's real name is Marie! hahahaI see you are still searching for understanding and enlightenment. Really - it would help you if you actually read the answers you get to the questions that trouble you so.
You have been offered some genuine wisdom and knowledge - rejecting it out of hand without consideration will not help in your search.I am no longer searching.
I found what I was looking for. Thanks. But no, thanks.Of course you are searching. You wouldn't be here day after day other wise. Obviously you need some help. I tried to explain about the sheep yet you still don't understand.
Clearly you have an empty space that needs filling. Only education will do it. You just need to open your mind and read a few more books.Funny
Let me tell you what I have found.
Love is important. It will not allow me to accept ANY words of advice from the likes of you no offense. You just don't know where you are headed; the blind are not fit to lead the "flock"
I sought the responses of those willing to participate about why this subject is such a hard one to discuss. However, it was plainly stated years ago, by Jesus. "The world hated me, they will hate you too." However, he also said that we should have no fear of that. I guess that means that people are just people. They have no real power. I WILL say what I am given. And I WILL ALWAYS invite you to "the party" I don't hate you, much as you want me to. Obviously you have a hole in your life that needs filling - no matter what you say.
This subject is very easy to discuss. You have been offered much wisdom here, yet you arrogantly reject it. I have explained several times how and why sheep act - yet you reject my information without bothering to check for yourself that I am right.
The "likes of you," means what exactly?The "open-minded" are the likes. Too much empty space
I have been instructed to walk a straight path without deviation. To listen to anything contrary to what I already know is prohibited and quite frankly, asking for trouble. I am certain that you understand.
Knowledge is just that. Knowledge of God is just that much more important. You have nothing to add to my Godly knowledge but current sheep behavior? I do not need that. why you consider it important and cause for concern is evident. Your hole is much bigger. but I don't mind that. You can talk to me whenever you like Sorry - I barely understand that. "The likes of you," means "open minded"? Is that correct?
As you understand open-mindedness. Yes.
I may not "know" a whooooole lot, buy God, I know. No one. But no one. I mean NO ONE CHILE! Can convince ME that he is not there. I stand tall for that. I cannot "fall" for your foolishness. I KNOW. Others will know to. So, be gone!!! Or stay
But THIS conversation is Godly, and will remain so until the very end of it I can handle your presence at the same time. Im amidextrus (i wish i cared to learn the big giant lmao icon, that was funny)How do you know how I understand open mindedness? I asked you what "the likes of you," meant. Is that what you meant? That I am open minded?
It doesn't make any difference what you stand tall for - obviously you feel the need to be educated or you would not be here.
Sheep don't follow a voice.You SPEAK what you understand open-mindedness to be. Are you not listening to even yourself??? It means to forget the majik of Christ/God/Spirit and cling to the majiks of just about anything else, as long as the knowledge don't come from the biblestuffs. Its has got to come from people you trust. Not the God-majishin. The Lab-majishin. I mean test-maker/ performer/ interpreter/ reporter, as long as it comes with a stamp that says "most people agree".
Right???I did no such thing. I asked you what you meant by "the likes of you."
I think you mean I don't follow the herd like a sheep as you do and that upsets you. Is that correct?Heck no! You have a choice. I have my own. I can let you have it your way, but you will not let me go. I don't mind. Stay. But then how can you accuse me of bombarding you? This conversation was started by whom??? I am glad you came, but you got me twisted. Shoot, you even got you twisted.
Are you following the conversation??? We are talking abou open -mindedness. Did you forget? I was explaining your view on what open-mindedness means. I understand your confusion though.No - we were not talking about open mindedness. You said this:
And I asked you what you meant by "the likes of you."
Then you mentioned open mindedness.
Are you following the conversation now?
What do you mean?You cut and paste so well! You totally missed the fact that we had already covered that. My memory is good. You said what is the likes. I said the likes were open-minded as you understand open-mindedness to be, then I explained your ibvious version of open-mind. Are YOU with me now???
Well - cut and pasting allows us to be more accurate in our conversation. Sorry if you find that offensive. How could you calling me open minded be offensive? I take it as a compliment actually.
My ibvious version being that I don't follow the herd like a sheep? Yes?No, you go your OWN way, like tge REAL "smart" sheep. Still vulnerable to the threat of an open-mind just waiting for the newest development that "sounds" right. Watch out fa dem wolves!!!
Worry not - those wolves are simply in your imagination - I have nothing to fear. I am not scared the way you are. Sorry. You don't have to be frightened of the big bad wolves.
But - I don't go for any newest development that sounds right. You have me mistaken for some one else. I simply reject nonsense.No - honestly - there is nothing to be frightened of. I hate to see you so scared for no reason.
HHHHHHHAAAAAAAA!!!!! You see you cannot let me go?
that's ok! I will be gentle.Stop talking at me then. Clearly you are looking for answers.
Do you feel better now you know there is nothing to fear?
Oddly - "gentle" and "humble" are not the words that come to mind when I think of you. This would be the answer to your OP.No. You gotta think "terrible" when you think of me.
I may pose a threat to your knowledge. And since that is all you have, what will you be left with ???
You are gonna have to do the stopping. I promise I will not talk to you afterA threat? Not in the slightest. We pulled the teeth of religious zealots many years ago. Are you trying to be a threat? Besides - your knowledge seems extremely limited. I can't stop now - you are in obvious need and fear - otherwise you would not keep asking me to help. Try this:
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. - Frank Herbert"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - Ralph Waldo Emerson.
If you accomplished your goal, then why do the same thing over and over and over and over and over, again?
Enlighten those of us who are interested in religion and philosophy. What wisdom do you have to impart? It would be a refreshing change to hear words of wisdom from you.I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
Sorry you didn't bother reading it the first time I posted it. Which is weird because you quoted it.
Ah - it is you again. How many accounts have you set up?Sorry, I missed it the first time you posted it. That's weird, I didn't quote it.
Quit looking under my dress.Damn. I'm slipping. My bad. I guess it didn't register.
Is that original? Have you got anymore good stuff?
That reminds me of something similar from somewhere in the New Testament, 'Perfect Love casts out fear."That's right! I have seen that movie a hundred times. The kids at Devereux loved it for some reason.
They had their share, most were abused. (physically sexually). All were outcasts.
I'm so sorry....I'd usually ignore you, but this is the cutest user i.d. I've seen from you so far.
He finds it every time. Code nerds love to "get their hands dirty".
I don't have time for it. You don't need code anymore, unless you are a programmer. Besides, I am right brained. Stopping to write code blows my flow.He is right though. You are a great anti-religion poster child.
Devereux is a good program, but it is a reed in the wind compared to the need. After a kid runs out of funding, or turns 18, then they are simply released into the greater universe. This is a sore spot for me. People have an errant picture of who needs "entitlements".
Our vocational program was very successful, but they pulled the plug for lack of money. I have a gift for getting work out of them.
Once, they put the most dangerous character to ever pass through the door in my "pre-vocational" class. This kid (16 years old) was from Liberty City in Miami, and 6 full grown men had a hard time subduing him. Every time they made him go to class, he would knock the tar out of the teacher. He was assigned a big dude to be his "one to one" staff when they sent him to me.
He threatened to kick my ass. I told the 1 to 1 to watch the class (against the rules) and took the thug out into the hall for a chat. I can bust a move if I have to, if you know what I mean. When there was a lull in his rant, I said, "Look, young bro, I know you don't belong in here with these younger kids. This place is a #%&^*@ing joke, sometimes. I'll tell you what . . . I have a CD player and a drawer full of confiscated, "inappropriate" rap CD's. You can put on headphones and listen to them. You can have your 1 to 1 help you write letters (against the rules). Just be cool and let me run the class. You don't have to do s##t if you don't want. Are you down with that?"
He sat at the back of the room with his big staff and caused me no trouble. I guess he just needed some power and control. Within two weeks, he noticed these molded and cast (lifecasts) plaster hands (holding objects) that my advanced class did sitting on the shelf. He picked up a fist clutching a pair of sunglasses and said, "How do you do this?"
I thought, "You are mine, now!" and got out the stuff to get him started.
See, before I was a Christian, I was one bad mamajama. Your little "Dune" blurb wouldn't have kept you from being afraid if I got mad at you.
The Lord works in mysterious ways. So, you have no idea what you are opposed to with your squirrely garbage. You are on my prayer list, now. it is all over for you! You will have that proof you are looking for, but I can't even tell you what form it will take.
Meanwhile, have respect for others.I stand with you for help. It is done!!! Easy
Yes, like you, a badmamajama, in a different way. He smiled on me too.
Our God is gracious and he gave that boy to you for a reason. You had touched him like no other and "salted" his universe. Ha!!!!! I can't not believe.
ThanksLAWL
There goes the Christian threats. How brave of you from yet another sock puppet account.Oh, lighten up. It's the best I can do. Besides . . . no threat.
Hey, I didn't edit fast enough. I don't get the smiley faces, this time. Translation, please.
Duh, I guess I'm slow on the uptake today. I missed your wise quote, and now this.
If you say that two more times, you just might get there.
Let's see... He knows majik, fighting, sheep, and more fighting. That's about the size of it
but do you think HE can stop the message?
Maybe he does, but, I guess that's what REAL "knowledge and mind power" does. Err
God has not given us the spirit of fear. But of love and a SOUND mind. Well! I guess there goes YOUR theory. I believe the Lord's report. You take your chances with whatever you like.
Yet you fear. You need to be a sheep to hide from the "wolves."
Really - they are not there. Nothing to worry about. No need for fear.
I fear nothing. Though the wolves are all around at all times, they behave around me.
The identification of nonsense does not seem to be your strongpoint. But hey, if it sounds right to YOU, must BE right. Right??? Uhhhh, you should probably stick to sheep. I can "take" it from here, thanks!
I said no offense to "the likes". What is your problem? Of course you like all the empty space in your mind, waiting to be filled with more nothing. I have no issue with that. My mind only allows IN certain info., along certain lines. All else is just guesses.
who needs that?Please stop lying at me. You said "no offense," to "the likes of you."
Attacking my intelligence now I see - interesting.
This would be the answer you seek.That's called willful ignorance...which is nothing to be proud of.
Who needs that?! People with integrity, that's who. Apparently dishonest people only need to be dishonest. Great job!There is a lot of that going around. Tell me, do you ever have positive thoughts, or are you just stuck on "buzz kill'?
Thanks for pointing out that your beliefs are dishonest and promotes willful ignorance...
Sorry if REALITY kills your supernatural high. I suggest you just accept that which makes sense, and stop lying to yourself.
Dishonest: joining a conversation about something that you do not believe to be real.
I see the lady on the corner pushing a shopping cart, yelling about Pinocchio. she is probably convinced that Pinocchio is real.
Justsilvie, that's quite an indictment you have there. I am quite taken aback by these people and their words! I can not call them my brother, my sister. There is something wrong with so-called Christians who think, and talk this way about people they find unacceptable. Nowhere to you see the love of the God they claim to serve demonstrate. They represent themselves.
their own hatred and prejudices, and not God! No wonder people hate Christians, of which I am one. The Bible talks about people like this... Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, pretenders (hypocrites)! For you are like tombs that have been whitewashed, which look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead men's bones and everything impure.So - Christianity must be one of the smallest religions on the planet then?
How many members do you have?I am not a Pastor, Mark. I have no church nor members. Thank God!
Why would I embrace such superstitious nonsense?
I see you did not answer my question, which is odd considering you just disowned most of the other people claiming to be Christian.
How many Christians are there exactly?The Christians I disown are God's problem. 'How many Christians are there exactly?' I couldn't tell you Mark.
Right - so why would I embrace something that no one follows?
- Didn't you just claim to be an atheist at one time?
Sure, in my early twenties. Then I say my brother who was paralyzed from the waist down walk, after someone prayed for him. We were at the hospital and a evangelist came into the room. I was ragging on her and all the stuff, I felt was stupid in the Bible. She stayed sweet and asked my brother, would he like prayer. He said yes, she prayed. Before that he had no feeling in his legs or feet, when the Dr. stuck them with a needle. As the woman prayed, my brother's legs started to move, then he walked. The whole room was like, this can not be happening. I was so zooted, I asked the lady to pray for me. I felt heat going all through my body and was overcome, I had to sit down. Needless to say the experience opened my eyes to the possibility there was something to this God thing. I have since had a lot of experiences like that.
+1 Great answer, and a wonderful testimony.
Sorry, but any benefit your brother had in the hospital had nothing to do with prayer, and no atheist would even entertain such a ridiculous notion. Sorry, your story does not give credit where credit is due and is merely another story only believers tell. You were no atheist.
This is there biggest mistake. They don't thank the right people, they don't give or take credit where it's do and they don't acknowledge responsibility when they error. Thank God or blame the devil.
I've seen the same thing happen when nobody was praying. It turns out the paralysis was only temporary. I've also seen many pray with no response at all.
If prayer worked there would be no christians in cancer wards or hospitals at all for that matter. But sadly that is not the case.Awesome - you must have a lot of medical proof you can supply then.
Looking forward to it....It's to bad nobody prayed for Christopher Reeves?
Maybe he was like you..didn't believe. When the doctors are ready to pull the plug on you, too bad you won't have anywhere to turn!
So there are no real believers in hospitals? We should have stats that say Christians stay out of hospitals and jails. Oh wait we have those stats and it looks like Christians are equally represented in hospitals and overly represented in jails. Oh well, there goes that.
And the true Christian shows itself.
Odd - you think lying about a miracle happening and then attacking anyone who won't believe you when you refuse to show the documented evidence and proof you have hidden away is going to achieve anything?
Other than - perhaps - allow you to understand that it is not your faith that is objectionable, but the way it makes you act?
I mean - the medical staff must have been amazed. The first documented evidence of a believer's spine repairing itself when it was irreparably damaged? Amazing stuff - at last! - proof of God's intervention after 2,000 years of nothing - and you don't show us?
Save me a seat by the fire.Wow! Talk about vicious. I think Satan is behind those words. Or, maybe it's God?
Once again Rad Man nails it. When prayer doesnt work Christians have a million excuses, but when an agreeable occurence takes place after a prayer then its supposed to be a miracle.
TIME AND CHANCE HAPPEN TO US ALL - Ecclesiastes
Tangible "proof" for those who love God. Mystery for those who will not see.
You wouldn't believe, if I showed you the x-rays. That's just how it is. My family's experience was very powerful and can not be explained away. It was not mass hysteria. All I know is, when that woman prayed in the name of Jesus, my brother walked and his is walking today. It had such a profound experience for me, even though I didn't believe in God, I went around telling everyone what happened to my brother. I have had a lot of supernatural experiences since then, that can not be explained by science.
Of course we would. You must have evidence other than X rays. Because an X ray will not show a spinal cord.
Unless you are lying? Which appears more likely unless you can provide proof.Do the X-rays reveal God working?
What is certainly revealing about your story is how little credit, if any, you give to the hospital and it's staff, who were the real heroes and that you give most if not all the credit to some woman praying, who could have just as easily been bowling, instead.
It not only insults the intelligence, but every single care worker on the planet. Shameful.We are overpowered with a mass of undigested intelligence, collected for the mast part without regard to values. My time is too precious, I won't cast my pearls before swine. No longer following this pointless forum. I have 4 hubs to finish today. A Troubled Man..perfect user name...It says it all! Where are your hubs a troubled man. Trying to harass Christians on HubPages you life's work. Soo sad!
Genaea, my earnings are skyrocketing. I just love October, November and December. Advertisers are paying more. I will leave you to waste your these enlightened fools!Why do Christians become so angry...and insert such vicious name calling into what could, otherwise, be a civil discussion? I guess it's that name of Jesus thing? It makes Christians so ANGRY!
...must be very stressful trying to deal with the oppressive cognitive dissonance.What you probably meant by that, if I may, is that you believe intelligent has a high cost, that of values. I would agree in regards to any values that a believer might glean from their religion intelligence would certainly be high on the list of threats to the religion, especially beliefs that don't give credit where credit is due.
We look forward to reading your hubs, perhaps a topic on how hard care workers strive to help people and get no credit for their rigor.
Personal insults only make you look childish.
So, now we're all fools because we don't share your beliefs that some stranger's prayer saved your brother when it was the care workers who most likely saved him.
Did you even thank anyone at the hospital?I think you can take it as read that when believer refers to someone as a 'fool' they are indicating the use as found in scripture:
Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
Trying to give the credit to the care workers is of course admirable, but unwarranted, as they had obviously been ineffective in curing the guy before someone prayed over him.
Did you never think to thank God for your very life and it's blessings?How odd you feel the need to jump in and explain why believers think all non believers are fools.
Really odd that you don't understand why this causes conflict.
As for the lies about the majick healing with no evidence - probably not worth discussing.You thought you "had her" right?
Then some other "christian" whose faith is greater, and whose heart is FULL of the knowledge of him, with the ability to explain her frustration of being "actually taunted" by you, concerning such a sensitive subject, swoops in and provides biblical scripture to back up her exclamation??? boo-hoo. It will happen every time What? How is asking for proof "taunting,"?
Swoops in and explains why you think we are fools and hides behind scripture? This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Liars For Jesus (TM)Cool if you would have stopped at asking for proof. You pulled out your horns and tail on that one.
Telling the truth is horns and tail?
I think she is lying. We see that a lot with believers in Christ. They will make all sorts of stuff up to defend their irrational beliefs.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.Calling her a liar illustrates the horns and tail. The "question" was sarcasm. There was an aire of disbelief throughout. For me, miraculous activity is "commonplace". For you, it is foolishness because you ignore the truth. Science cannot "fix" a spine. You know that. But YOU are more inclined to believe that it MUST HAVE been possible because the alternative is foreign to you.
How is being honest "horns and tail," exactly? I think she is lying. She made claims that were dishonest and - impossible. If she has the means to prove it and does so - I will retract my statement. As it is - she has not done so.
Please stop attacking me for asking for the truth. Thank you.You are asking for proof. Yet you cannot prove that the doctors healed the severed spine. That is scientifically impossible, yes??? However, proof or no, the boy is walking
prove Dr. Miracle and next in line for the nobel prize, did it I don't believe her - sorry. She said she had X-rays. Seems she was lying.
Odd you choose to attack me for asking for the truth. Why is that?Again, you are not asking for truth, you got that. You are asking for proof because you don't believe the truth she presented. Now YOU prove her wrong. Which of those doctors should we glorify for being the first to display such an impossibility.
Please stop lying at me. Thank you.
No wonder your religion causes so many conflicts.
PROVE ME WRONG!- she does not have to prove she is telling the truth. Remember??? Our "civilization" requires that you prove she is the liar. Which doctor? Huh???
When people make unreasonable claims of impossible events then claim to have proof which they refuse to share, our "civilization," does indeed have to ask for proof.
Sorry if that upsets you. It must be very frustrating in today's civilization not to be able to make unreasonable claims of majikal happenings without some one asking for proof.
I do have a fantastic food supplement that will make you look younger and live longer. It will also increase your attractiveness to the opposite sex and increase your intelligence - it is only $100 per month. Why would you need any proof? Order now!
I wonder if you are starting to understand that it is not your "faith," that causes all the arguments - it is your attitude that stems from believing any nonsense that will justify your irrational beliefs?Of course, I would count the cost ($100 per month in your case) and then order a supply, to test whether what you said would be truth.
You could probably offer some testimonials from satisfied users (we have 2.3 billion) and although they would not be anything more than estimations of other users experience with the product, why should I doubt them? 2.3 billion people are hardly likely to all be lying, even if some of them are just getting a placebo effect from the product, because they only use it occasionally instead of daily (as the directions state they should) or maybe they did not count the cost and cannot afford to keep 'paying' (as in surrendering their rebellion daily) and therefore they do not see the full benefits.
No doubt some former users would complain that the product had not worked for them (after they did not follow the directions, or neglected to use the product as directed?) and they are always the most vociferous, of course, because they cannot accept that something which works perfectly well for everyone else, seems to not work for them.
People who complain the most often turn out to be just whiners who want to stop others getting what they cannot get, bitter people who resent others getting benefits they have rejected.
But I would try your product (if I wanted the benefits) before I spent my life complaining about you offering it to others.
How strange that you once again lay claim to billions of users, when just the other day you were saying none of them were actually Christians. Which is it? Are those idolators in the Vatican that you were complaining about now Christians?
Sorry you are unable to understand the point I was making and need to twist things to attack me personally.
No wonder your religion causes so many conflicts.I leave the judgement to others Mark, it is the job of the enemy to be the accuser, and for God to be the Judge, and in any case, they are believers in God, the finer points of how deep or relevant their faith is, will not be my concern, I don't have to agree with their modus operandi of presenting the 'product' or how they package it, to know that they are supplying the product to those who are interested.
Speaking in metaphors there Mark, personally I dislike marketing things, prefer to do business face to face with interested people, but I guess in this consumer society that some sections need to move with the times.
There are 2.3 billion believers who have tested the 'product' to various degrees of success and satisfaction, that's a pretty good proof level of product fitness for purpose, considering that worldwide atheists seem to number (at best) 91 million folk
Oh I fully understood the factious point you were attempting to present, which is why I answered you in like manner, and what was personal about my response? I make no mention of you, I speak of the same hypothetical situation you alluded to, but if the cap fits, feel free to wear it of course.
My 'religion' as you call it, does not cause conflicts, it does attract a minority of folk who cannot bear to see Christ lifted up for all to see, and who attempt to disrupt those who do present Christ in a positive light, but that is to be expected, goes with the territory so to speak.
John 15:18-19
Amplified Bible (AMP)
If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If you belonged to the world, the world would treat you with affection and would love you as its own. But because you are not of the world [no longer one with it], but I have chosen (selected) you out of the world, the world hates (detests) you.Yes, all cults operate that way, goes with the terrortory.
Strange... You feel attacked??? Wanna call it a truth attack??? Beat with "real common sense??? Canonical knock-out???
I think you are mistaken. I did not read an attack in the previous "ad". Maybe you can call it defeat noooo. No one is trying to hurt you. We are only debating the topic of Christ. It is those who don't follow him that cause all the trouble. God's children are asked to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. You have that here Come on - we are debating no such thing. We are debating why your religion causes so many conflicts. You are wise? Crikey - excuse me if I don't want any of that.
You seem to have forgotten why you started this thread.Ok, have you narrowed that down yet? Your religion, is an inacurate description of what this is. It is faith. My faith causes fights??? Jesus is not the issue. The free will of man is. It is YOUR religion that causes all the fighting.
No - it is how your religion causes you to behave that is the issue. Not your faith. If you kept your "faith," in your head where it belongs instead of trying to inflict it on all and sundry - we would not even be having this conversation.
Jesus is not the issue - there was no such person.Aha!!! So we are back to "shut-up or pay you happy ole Christian!"
and who/what is causing all the what???No - I already told you. All the time you spout nonsense and hatred - I will call you on it.
Is that too hard for you to understand?
See how you are the instigator? You. No spouting of hatred and irrational nonsense - no argument from me. But - when you open your trap and spout ridiculous nonsense - if not me - some one will ask you to back this up. As you are incapable of doing so and just seem to be self righteously preaching - I don't want to quote your majik book, but - I think you will find that it tells you you will be called to task.
Don't feed the troll and it will leave in search of other conflict.
I think not, unfortunately, for pride in ones intellect is a fatal sin, normally only cured by a complete downfall or disaster.
Which raises the question, would one rather have someone lost in their iniquity and rebellion, or saved as the result of catastrophe, which option is the lesser evil to pray for?
If one prays for full deliverance at whatever cost, then the outlook is bleak in this life, at least for a time, for the one prayed for. But the election becomes viable and eternity is gained.
If one leaves them to their present condition, then their life is possibly easier, but the death is devastating and a perfected eternity is lost to them.
These truths are the ones lost on folk.
Thanks for your thanks!Odd you don't understand that this self righteous superiority you display is the issue. This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Got to admit your "McDonald's" argument is very funny.
Lots of people believe in majik therefore it is real.
Hysterical.Self righteousness is not something I would bring up Mark, if I were you.
You pontificate here with trite repetitious cut and paste one liners in some vain attempt to persuade the world that Christ is the problem, rather than the solution.
The ONLY righteousness any believer has is being under the covering of Christ, indeed nobody can claim to be righteous except by Christ, for ALL have sinned and fallen short of Gods righteousness.
I know you like to try and rile we believers up, maybe get us to drop our guard and let you show how bad we are, well we are bad Mark, the difference is we know and accept our error, and thanks be to God, we can repent when we sin and be forgiven by God.
What's your excuse?
It is true. I have seen pride "goeth" before destruction on many occasions. I believe that it is true. Humility makes life with Christ possible. Leaning to ones' own understanding is rooted in pride. But I never really considered the fact that the "destruction" is needed.
Sometimes destruction is the only solution.
I have seen others, and been personally bought down to the lowest levels by God, and needed to be demolished I must admit.
God cares for us totally, and when we stray from His authority, He will reduce us until we recognise our sin and come back to rest under the wings of the Most High again.
I have seen men of God who would not repent, die before their time, because although they were in deliberate sin, they were not reprobate yet, and (it seemed) God will take them home rather than lose them to the enemy if they continued in their blatant sins.
God cares for all of us, and WILL allow the enemy to strip us down (Job?) when our eternity is endangered by our temporal existence.
I have also seen men given a 'final warning' and either accept the warning and be restored to Christ, or refuse it and die.
The 'destruction' element works both ways: to save those who may be lost otherwise, and soften those who will not come to Christ in any other manner because of their stubbornness and rebellion.
Every word we utter is not only recorded, but will empower either Christ or the enemy, if folks understood that, they may be more cautious about how they communicated !It is perfectly ok to choose death. Stupid, but legitimate.
That's why it isn't a choice, it's extortion and blackmail.
From what I understood from what aguasilverp said was that if one is lost and God feels he may not get him back, God will take him then and there to save him. There is no free will in that. God made the choice for him/her.
You will never understand it all about anything concerning life, its occurrences, its seasons, its existence, its bars or allowances. It was that way for me when I lived in my parent's house too
i didn't even understand where we were going half the time . This world belongs to God. He runs it. I, for one, trust him to do so.It is that lack of personal responsibility that causes polluted oceans and endangered species.
I don't live with my parents and I don't see what that has to do with Free Will. You guys talk and talk about free will and then say we don't have it. Well do we or do we not have the will to decide for ourselves. I was once a Christian and now I am not. Your God didn't take me when I made that change. Somebody is lying here.
We have the right to decide our own path. God has the final say. So, if your will interferes with God's will, guess what.
Just what I thought, no free will/choice. But doesn't your bible talk about your free will/choice?
No, I don't think it does directly, in fact there are only 22 verses where the word freewill even appears, and they all relate to freewill offerings (i.e. not under obligation to provide) and in the whole bible the words free and will only appear together 47 times, none of them referring to this free will you are so intent on blaming God for not giving you.
But we do get to make all the right or wrong choices.Make up your mind. You say God doesn't give us free choose and then say God gives us the ability to make right and wrong choices. You clearly don't understand the concept of space-time, or choice for that matter.
Wikipedia
"Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints."
Do you see the word choice in there?You cannot make a choice without a free will...
Yes, you can, without any problem whatsoever.
- Choice cannot be made without free will. Even though choices are laid out for you to pick, without free will, you cannot do so.
- That is nonsense. Even a newborn can make choices, left breasty dumpling or right breasty dumpling, or both.
Correct, but some here claim that God decides for them.
Yes I do, so you are saying we do have free will, but then again you say that God does not allow us free will choices.
If you are not under the authority of God, whose authority are you obeying?
Now let's examine your definition:
"Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints."
So therefore you accept that there are constraints applied.
Who applies them?
My understanding is that it's either God who provides some constraints, or the enemy, now when I worked for the enemy, I had no constraints over what I did to other people, except those provided by law, which were negotiable,. i.e. If I was prepared to face any consequences incurred by discovery, I could do whatever I liked, but even then there was another constraint as well, because if I did what I like and to the wrong person or people, they could equally do what they liked to me, so one had to select victims who would not retaliate.
These were indeed all free will choices, choices which required me to subjugate another free will in favour of my own free will.
Then along comes Christ and shows me that this is perhaps not the way I should be acting, and SUGGESTS that I instead cast my lot with Him, which will mean subjugating my free will, to the will of the Father.
This sounds like a bad deal, I agree, but in fact it's a brilliant deal, because when I subject myself to the Fathers will, I also gain His protection and blessings, and never have to make anyone else subject to my will.
What do you want YOUR free will to be able to do?
Is your intention that you can subjugate others, and if not, what do you want to be free to do?
We all obey authority and rules that are not our own making every day of our lives, we submit to authority whether we like it or not.
I just chose whose authority I would submit to, and having done so, the world has no authority over me.
Sure, the world can kill me, but being in Christ, that is no threat.. the worst the world can do is send me home from school early.I'm not saying we have free will. I never said that. I'm trying to figure out if you think God gave us free will (the will to choose) or does God all ready know the results of our lives. I God does not give us free will then how can he judge us. Why does he extort us with pain and misery if you don't believe he exists, but live life ethically sound?
Christians have a hard time understanding free will because they can only see the will of God, but if you look past religion and look at free will you see a very simple question.
Do we have free will? To have free will one has to know if the future is already set. You need to know if the future already present. Physics tells you time may be an illusion. Because of the very nature of space-time if may be possible to step into the future using space-time. If this is possible then free will is also an illusion because my decisions have already been made. If time is an illusion and the past, present and future are all happening at the same time, then we are not free to choose.
Your description of your God can see the past, present and future so therefore using that same scenario we are not free to choose because the future is happening now and those choses have been made.
According to physics time travel into the future is possible and has been demonstrated manny times. It's done by using space-time, by traveling through space and gravity we slow time for us and therefore arrive in a different time the those not traveling as fast through space.
Somewhere, somehow but does it really matter to you???
Rad, if you saw your child swimming towards a shark, would you not pull him or her out of the water to safety?
You may view death as the final frontier, but believers see it as the awards ceremony that precedes graduation into eternal spiritual life.
Any time God wants to pull me out of this world, I am happy to rejoin Him.Rejoin him? Let's not go there.
Why would a God with all the power that you describe cause such suffering to good humans? You say he loves and and would pull us out of harms way, but he doesn't. The cancer wards are littered with people from all religions. People die in car accidents every day. Your claim that God intervene's is invalid and untrue. You have no evidence and no stats to back you up. Christians are jailed in greater proportions than there representation. But Atheists are make up only less then 1% of the jail population. Please back up what you claim.The life of every believer will back up what I claim.
I cannot of course speak for those who withdraw themselves from Gods protection.
Again, you think that dying is a bad thing, when in fact it is just the start point.I think I was talking about all the suffering. And yes dying causes suffering to those who are left behind. Just because a lot of people believe as you do doesn't make it right. Islam is the fastest growing religion, perhaps you should jump on that bandwagon before you are proven wrong by a larger group of people.
I jumped OFF the bandwagon of secular non belief, I don't do bandwagons I have found my spiritual home and will not leave it thank you.
Okay, but you keep claiming you have the numbers therefor you're correct. Who will be correct with you are out numbered by muslims? Might is not right, they are just more powerful.
Good, then please stop making claims that there is truth in numbers.
I'm afraid murder is something which rather precludes one from claiming the name of Christ.
Strictly not allowed in the NT.I see. It's you how decides who can call themselves Christians or not and who gets forgiven or not. This murder thing is strange. It's not allowed in the OT unless God directs you to. It's not allowed at all in the NT, but you can be forgiven for it. Today, it's not allowed at all for Christians unless their Government trains and directs them to do so.
Not me who decides, Christ dictated the conditions of belonging to Him:
John 13:34-36
Amplified Bible (AMP)
I give you a new commandment: that you should love one another. Just as I have loved you, so you too should love one another.
By this shall all [men] know that you are My disciples, if you love one another [if you keep on showing love among yourselves].
That requires us to give up our lives to save others, not take others lives, so that is how I figure out that murderers (at least when they kill) cannot be disciples of Christ.
For at least that period, they have been under the authority of the enemy:
John 8:44
You are of your father, the devil, and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a falsehood, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar [himself] and the father of lies and of all that is false.
Christ put it 'By their fruits you shall know them' - simple really!Yes, that's what I said. You think you decide who is a Christian.
You wrote; "so that is how I figure out that murderers"Stop being so tricky dickey Rad,
'I' figure it that way because He figures it that way, I don't get to make th eruules about anything or judge anyone, it's peoples actions judge them
Another blatant fabrication. Believers fight each other over their beliefs systems just as much as they fight everyone else. They call each other names, tell them they are evil and one of Satans minions, etc.
FREE CHOICE, not free will, if we had free will, I would fly everywhere by mind control and have access to the Rothschild's bank accounts, we have free choice, when God sees that we are making the wrong choices, He can present differing options for us.
But yes, ultimately God decides when we get removed from play, none of us get to choose how long we live, unless we commit suicide, and even then we cannot really know whether that was in any case our dedicated exit time and strategy!
Can God be surprised?
No, because He can see all of time and be anywhere He wants when He wants.
Also remember that He may be changing other folks time lines and you may be affected by that.
You were maybe liable to get killed in a terrorist attack, and He made your train late.
Was God intervening in your free will, or shuffling your choices?
If you jumped off the train and chased to work in a cab, then got killed in the attack, would that be Gods will or yours being exercised?
Strange thing this God business!I think "incredible," is the word you are looking for. It seems even you don't understand it.
You are still qualified to speak for it though - that is wonderful. Yes, very strange this God business.
You make a wonderful case for starving children, but I seriously doubt they'll want to hear it.
Interesting that God decides how many children "get removed from play" when they barely, if at all, had a chance to play.Okay lets call it free choice and not free will if that makes you happy. Free will, just means the will to choose, but it doesn't matter if you don't understand it.
Agualsilver said "we have free choice, when God sees that we are making the wrong choices, He can present differing options for us."
and then Agualsilver said "ultimately God decides when we get removed from play"
I guess the short answer is you don't know. According to you God can't even be surprise because he is in the future and the past. He must then know the future of the unborn so why does he not intervene in cases where people become bad. You claim this happens, but there are clearly bad people out there and God lets them be. They weren't bad when they were born and if they were why did God not intervene?
Why did he not intervene for those who were lost on 9/11?
You see to have an understand of what you think your God does, but where did you get that information and even to you it seems at times strange and confusing.
It seems strange because your claims are conflicting, misleading and confusing.Rad, to a point I agree with you, neither of us are any match for the entity we call God and who can keep pace with every event as it happens in real time, He makes our ATM machines look slow, and they can deduct cash from my account in seconds even when I am on the other side of the world from my account.
Jeremiah tells us that BEFORE we were born God KNEW us, and Psalm 139 tells us that He knew the number of our days before we were born as well.
So the start point, when we were injected into this physical body, and the end point, when we leave it, are already established.
What happens between those two points are what we are here to play out, and to make the choices that determine how we play it out.
IN between those two points we are swimming along with billions of other souls, all 'doing our own thing' by the rules and morality we accept or reject.
All our actions have reactions, God just has the ability to shape things to cause the least harm He can from our errors of judgement.
But we (individually) alone can make better or worse choices and affect others for good or bad.
If we all made choices in line with His will, then the world would be a paradise, unfortunately we don't, so it is not.
Off to walk the dog now, back in a bit!
Notice that you present the ever popular reward/punishment system that your religion has taught you to embrace, a system that has failed miserably in attempting to produce positive behavior. And of course, the punishment is harsh, simply because one wishes to think and actually use the brains God gave them.
Again, I see this as little more than whining about those who are smarter than you.I honestly believe that if you felt that way, you would surely stay far away from the person exclaiming what you consider nonsense. Therefore either you do actually have a different opinion than the one you constantly confirm, or you are in need of "useless activity". Do you know which???
Or, if they just kept it all behind closed doors where it belongs.
Well.... you represent about 91 million souls who reject God, which is about 0.013% of the world population in total, and you think that you should receive special treatment because your 'using your own minds' (becoming a self made god) causes you to be separated from God.
And that is harsh?
It's more akin to you trimming your toenails because one of them is ingrowing.That is entirely false and you know it.
There are far more people in the world, billions, that don't accept your God, You're being dishonest here.
No, it's more akin to trimming your toenails with a scythe.OK, just checked, and you are partially correct:
Number of Atheist in the world: 2.32% (157,529,444 people).
But not 'billions' I'm afraid, just a small aberration in human terms.
Now let's see, 2.32% of my body, how much is that? maybe inequivalent to a few flakes of skin that died and were washed off in the shower, that is how relevant it is, in comparison to the human race in total.
Perhaps I am still too imprecise... maybe equivalent to cutting a little toenail off that had been damaged by my careless walking on a beach without proper footwear.
I know it's not well received to see our own insignificance in the way that God may see it, but if you have to care for the whole worlds people throughout history, removing the damaged or rebellious cells (cancer?) makes more sense that losing the whole.But not my retraction and correction?
How strange, you must have had a bad day so far!Not really, but the liars for Jesus certainly do make it that much more hilarious.
"As of the early 21st century, Christianity has around 2.2 billion adherents of about 7 billion people"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country
Hence, you are of a minority group with less than one-third of population. You can stop being dishonest anytime soon, it would be appreciated.
Is this why your ilk spent so many years burning atheists at the stake?
Probably Mark, and take note that the world has deteriorated into iniquity since the tradition was ceased!
So - the world was a better place when you guys were murdering atheists? Interesting.
When was the world a better place exactly? What was the peak? As murdering atheists is the moral thing to do.Never said it was moral, expedient for the church maybe, never moral, lighten up, I put a wink at the end of that remark!
Sorry - missed that. So - you don't think the world is more full of iniquity since atheism became legal? Interesting - it has only been legal to not believe in garbage for a short while.
Just think how many atheists there will be in a couple hundred years.If there were a couple of hundred years, I agree, we could be in a sorry state, but I think the plug will be pulled way before then, but who knows?
How silly. Do you lie awake at night dreaming of the day the Atheists get what is coming to them?
No of course not Mark, I never think about them at all, why would I?
Because you spend so much time claiming to be trying to save us.Or is that just self righteous hypocrisy?
Mark, I gave up trying to save anyone right after fundamentalist school ended and I understood that ONLY the Holy Spirit can reach the lost, and only someone who knows they are lost can realise they need to be saved.
What little time I spend here is to try and let those who stumble in here see what they are up against when the atheist 'possee' are in town.
Fortunately you all have very limited lines of expression and mainly post the same inane jibes time and time again, so dealing with the backwash is relatively simple and most newbies can see what the calibre of your debate is up to (speaking generally for all of you now, not just you).
It also pays to come here on occasion as my hub reads grow when I am in the forums! so not only do I get to meet with my favourite atheists but I see an increase in income as well.
'chuffty' as Del Boy would say!Ah - self righteous hypocrisy then.
I see money is still your driving force. No surprise there I suppose.John, you seem to be implying that your position, or argument, has been superior in these debates. That is not true. In fact, in my opinion, you have lost every debate, as you have NEVER presented one morsel of evidence in support of your argument. NONE. Yet you accost us with this nonsense that it is us "with very limited lines of expression" That's completely insulting. It IS no wonder that your beliefs cause conflict.
You know full well that there is no proof for or against the existence of God, that you would accept anyway, any more than Evolution being more than a cute theory could be sold to believers.
Neither side in this forum could persuade the other that they are right or wrong, it's a group of old 'friends' chewing the cud just like we would in any bar where there was nothing better happening.
Believers have a personal relationship, with God , through Christ, which anyone is entitled to have, but it is a choice an it does come with a price.
We don't need the proof that you guys and gals demand, because we have the proof that ONLY comes when you stop demanding it.
Thanks for calling me John, that was polite and I respect that!It would appear your former statement contradicts the latter, especially about a price.
Not true. You choose to believe what you believe because of rigid indoctrination. Some atheist don't even believe in The Theory of Evolution.
Unfortunately, that price appears to be believers surrendering their logic, reason, and common sense to ancient drivel.
Yes, I once surrendered my critical thinking to ancient drivel as well. Enslaving my mind, however, just didn't work for me.
No problemRigid indoctrination!
I would be considered a heretic by most fundies! and believe me, I had no 'rigid indoctrination' when I came on board, my lot were loose as anything doctrine wise!
My 'rigid indoctrination' was when I entered sales 45 years ago, and continued until I came to faith 20 years ago, when I dropped all that 'rigid indoctrination' and stopped playing the worlds game.
Right now I am just getting comfortable with having my personal relationship with Christ, there are no churches involved in my life, and have not been for a long while.
If I do visit the local 'synagogues' it is by invitation, and I mostly need to bite my tongue so as not to offend them.
Anyhow, time for my bed I think, 2.16 am here!
Nite!Have you ever considered the fact that all the intelligence one can muster is still extremely limited? You can't be intelligent enough to answer all of life's questions. You can read til your eyes are blinded and after, with your fingers and you will never be able to answer all your questions. So, since there are unanswered questions about everything, have you resolved that you will stay in a constant state of question?
That's right. Let's just give governmental control back to the Vatican in all of Europe and the America's. Then let's see how well we get along with Islamic nations.
Yes, it is very easy to denounce and wish harm on those who are smarter than you.
'smarter than you'
ATM, you are always good for a laugh!
Luckily, you are not totally unbearable
but to me, your thoughts that stems from an uninformed and stubbornly so mindset are.
We are in a conversation that we cannot even enjoy, much less resolve. I believe you when you say that you do not believe in God. You, I believe without further question. You have convinced me that you are unmovable in your position.
You done chewing on my bones?No. Your religion and the attitude you display causes nothing but conflicts. All the time you continue to do so, I will call you on it. Sorry.
Calling me uniformed and stubborn because I will not believe the nonsense you spout does not really help either. I already know you look down on anyone who does not believe as you do.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
I am not unmovable. Offer me some actual evidence and I am all over it. Really. Nonsensical lies about majikal healing don't do anything for me - sorry."Not unmovable" is the best thing you have said all year!!!
thanks.
Listen to me very carefully, no one can ever convince you that God is real (sorry) I know that makes it a little harder to see it being possible. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will open. Faith cannot be given to you, if so, you would certainly be "converted" by now .
Next time you read the words, ask God to open your eyes. Your faith (by asking) will "whole" you scripture tooNo - honestly, I am open. But - I want some real proof - not faith in nonsense.
We know that faith IS our evidence. My living with God is packed full of confirming experiences. Or "fairy-tale" beyond belief, if you prefer.
I am nevr left hanging. I mean stuff that could not happen by mere coincidence, in my opinion, occurs. Things I simply think about are confirmed by two or three witnesses. God is there. Faith is key.
Amazing the absurd claims believers create in order to defend another absurd claim.
Considering that the medical world is largely based on science and not witchcraft, it would be safe to assume that showing how a spine heals would best be demonstrated by science. That is, unless you know of some other method for proving otherwise.
Of course, it goes both ways, you cannot prove God had anything to do with it, either.
See how that works?You mean the one that says there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON the severed spine allows one to walk on his own??? Ok, I mean that one is a "stretch" in my opinion. But hey, you got a right to believe as you wish.
Well we have already agreed that the doctors can't do that. So... God it is!!!
now see...did that hurt??? There is no agreement to that at all, that is just your irrational belief.
That is absurd.So you do believe that doctors can knit together a severed spine??? And I am delusional???
By definition, yes, in that you believe God knit a severed spine together.
So give me the TRUTH Sir. Please tell the world where spine fixing is available. The world needs that news.
Ok, I read the first of your materials. But, I had to stop after I saw the words, "nothing short of a miracle" whose side are you on, anyway!!!
Explains that the bible itself calls you fools.
Yes - I know. The bible itself attacks me.
Odd you don't seem to understand that this causes conflicts.So, to whom do you write "a STERN letter" about that? It is what it is. If you don't believe what the bible says, we are at a loss in this conversation. You believe bits of it for sure, it seems that you quote from it when it seems to prove your point for you. The "trick" is in believing all of it.
You will then know the truth and have the ability to be free. If you don't believe that, again, we are at a loss.Please quote me quoting from the babble.
Or - stop lying about me.
Thanks.Yep. I believe the whole thing too:
"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)
Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)
Give me any plague, but the plague of the heart: and any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman." (Eccles. 25:13)
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silvers, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
Thank you Jesus.I'm only showing you that women should know their place. They are to worship males, as we are just one step below God, proving women were put here to serve us. But you must understand it is not ME saying it, it is the word of God. Surely you are not challenging the word of God? He made a special place for people who do such. The word of God is not to be mocked!
Yet you mock.
I know that God said that I as a woman am to "help". If you need my services to understand the truth, then "help" you, I will. And since you are in a bible quoting mood, why don't you flip on over to the red letters and quote those. Jesus has a LOT to say to you OK. Here you go:
I found these words of ultimate wisdom highlighted in RED:
"If I testify about myself, my testimony is NOT valid." (John 5:31)
I went a little further, and found these words, also highlighted in RED:
"Jesus answered: Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony IS valid."(John 8:14)
Help me...I'm starting to become confused...
Let me pull myself together, and read more words of extreme truthfulness, coming from the King of all kings.
Let's see...I continued to read these wonderful words of profound wisdom:
"For God so loved the world" (John 3:16)
But then I read these:
“Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15)
I think, that t I might need remedial reading, or maybe I just got the wrong bible, or something! But please help me understand: which one of these statements is true? They can't both be true, as they are diametrically opposed.
OK. I'll read some more:
We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)
Are these the things Jesus said...Really?........
Was he taking any type of medication for his severe disorder. And I thought you had some good news. That was just a straight up misrepresentation.Ok good! Reading the words will lead to an understanding of them as you grow in love for God. For starters, to fear God does not translate over to being afraid. It is a reverential term. Do you reverence God? God is love. Never do we have to be afraid.
As for the other, my bible says for John 8, "These claims are valid even though I make them about myself. He further explained that the reason was because they don't know him. He was telling the people that his claims of himself were valid even if they did not see it that way. In John 5 he explained that his testimony of himself was not valid TO THEM but another testified on his behalf and was scrutinized although he spoke truth and God sent him with miracles as evidence.
Keep reading. The words of Jesus, if you take them in, will change your mind forever.I can never grow to love this diabolical piece of garbage you call God.
Pure drivel. The reason I don't fear God is because he is imaginary. Period.
Only a sucker would buy such nonsense. God is imaginary, therefore he could not have sent any miracles. It seems that you have to close your mind completely in order to embrace this crap.
Yep. with just a little further reading of these wonderful words, I should be a raging delusional psychotic...if I choose to actually believe this childish nonsense.
Really? Then, it must also be perfectly acceptable to open another book and see what it says about people, perhaps we can start with Mein Kampf to see what it says about Jews and Christians, and how Gods work was done?
You don't seem to get the point here, there are many books with many words. So, if you open them up and begin telling us those words are meant for us, then you obviously support and embrace those words as your own because that's what you've been taught to believe.Not taught, learned to trust and believe after serious study of the bible and many books, and having seen practical demonstrations of Gods power in my life an the lives of others.
Just like we've observed, not having to trust and believe and after serious study, the results and effects of "Mein Kampf" on the world?
I read Mein Kampf in 1982, and although much of it made some sense to me at the time, (I had more or less a fascist mentality at the time) it was clearly error when you examined the whole.
I spent 5-8 hours a day reading and absorbing the bible between 1992-2000 as I was gifted with the time to study, I read it alongside many other books for comparison, the first 9 months I was reading it to disprove it's content, after that I gradually realised that it actually held all truth, or at least all the truth we needed to live this life.
It cannot be understood by the spiritually dead and those deceived by the enemy, and understanding needs a contrite spirit and a broken heart.
Contrite is when you have got to the point where you see sin as God sees our sin, the broken heart follows when you can recognise your own sin, and cannot any longer bear to live with it.
With understanding come the blessings of God.
Now I really MUST go to bed!
May the peace of God find all your hearts and bring the inner peace that only Christ can bring.Yes, I understand you believe we're fools, no need to extrapolate more superiority gobbledegook from that quote.
Don't forget you are also spiritually dead and deceived, whereas Aguasilver is not and therefore better than you.
He is also contrite. Probably humble as well.
Huh? I don't know Mein Kampf. The bible is our guide. I don't wholeheartedly accept words from just any ole book. The bible holds the only truth I know. All the other stuff is questionable in my mind. Surprising???
Not at all surprising. You appear to admit to dismissing other books in favor of one book, even though you never read the books you dismiss.
Indeed. It is important to realize that one's own holy book is important to oneself. It has very little relevance to anyone else.
Not strictly true, because in fact it has relevance to over half the worlds population in one way or another.
Maybe not to you, but most definitely to most of the world.How odd - I thought you said that the rest of the world were not real Christians?
Little wonder your religion causes so many conflicts.Mark, saying it has relevance is not making any statement about the veracity of their faith, it has relevance to the Islamic believers, and they have no relationship with Christ.
Anyhow, 1.34 am here in Penang, time for me to sleep, thanks to all for the game of table tennis...
Actually completely true, in that I was saying it is important to those who believe in it, and only them. And, if you care about accuracy, Christianity accounts for about 32% of the world population. Lest than most, and not even a majority.
Slow to sleep, just up for a cup of lemon-grass tea!
You forgot Islam.... 26.4%, which by my reckoning makes 58.4%... of and of course Judaism, which is another 1.11%, making a grand total of 59.51% of folk who think that the bible is relevant to not just their lives, but the world in general.
Against 2.3% who think it's not, plus another 11.9% who don't know or think about it, and I guess the rest have their own books to think relevant.
Based on this thread, it is--you just haven't realized it yet. You either need to stop mixing with diverse people, or start working out how to respect diverse opinions.
I just realize that I will never be able to read all books. The ones I have read, work fine for my questions. I am no longer scrutinizing the God that I serve. I believe what he told me. I see no reason to ask him to "prove" himself to me again.
It is doubtful anyone could read all books in their lifetime.
It is puzzling anyone could read few books in their lifetime.
It is disturbing anyone could be consumed by one book in their lifetime.
This is one of my favorites. If African American slaves had believed this nonsense, we would still be slaves even now:
Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2:9-10)Which verse was telling folk that even though they were enslaved, they were better off than the masters, for they knew God and Christ and were given eternal life, whereas the masters, in their ignorance were heading for eternal damnation.
You truly think people are not enslaved today?
The only difference is that they put their own shackles on.NONSENSE!!! God is imaginary. Slavery is real. What a silly trick for the weak minded.
Yep, and you don't even have the sense to be aware that you are promoting slavery. How frightening!
So please remove the yoke of religious ignorance from around your neck,and free yourself. Sad, indeed.No one can truly free themselves. But you have not realized that yet.
What does this have to do with your illogical invisible super sky daddy? And just when did you become the licensed authority to assert what things that I REALIZE? You have no special powers...only delusion.
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."
~~Thomas Jefferson
I guess the most intelligent of the founding fathers of USA was nothing more than a mere FOOL!
Just because the care workers were ineffective, does not automatically default to Goddunit. COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL...and foolish. Of course people suffering with delusional, absurd beliefs can't handle the truth.
Will it be ok with you if I thanked the Ju-Ju- of the Sea, because to some people, in Africa, that is god.Actually the higher ones intelligence, the more prone to foolish thinking about God one is susceptible to, and the easier it is for the enemy to sidetrack the intelligent persons thinking.
The enemies aim is always to get those who have the most intelligence to recognise their own self esteem, pride is a key weapon in the enemies armoury, which is why God forewarned us:
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
No, of course not, the guy lies there unable to move, the doctors say he will not walk again, someone prays over him, and he walks... obviously no connection whatsoever!
You are of course entitled to your personal opinion, and can pray to whatever god you feel suits your faith, and if that is the Ju-Ju- of the Sea, so be it.
Just be sure, that's all I can say, just be sure you are right.A god who is anti-intelligence is a despot...plain and simply, you have been DUPED.
Do you realize that you are promoting despotism?
To say that there is a connection is just plain foolish...and totally mindless of all the other possibilities.
"Sure" or delusional. It appears they one and the same to you.God is all for intelligence, He simply recognises that fools mistake intelligence for wisdom, and more particularly their own intelligence and wisdom.
When in truth all wisdom and intelligence is a gift from God.
The enemy does dupe folk, he dupes them into believing that they are their own gods, that they hold authority over their own lives and that no man, or god has authority over them.
Yet every day we submit ourselves to some authority, we make the decision to obey someone other than ourselves.
Now who is deluded?
The enemy is a despot, and one that does wield power oppressively, if you don't believe me, try to escape his clutches, and see what he does to you.
I did that, I defected from the enemies camp to Christ, I can tell you that when you awaken to who your real master is, and if you attempt to escape, you will see some strange and on occasion frightening things take place in your life and he sets his minion upon you to attempt to stop your defection.
Do you realize that actually it's you who are promoting despotism..... and you are completely unaware of it as you are duped into believing that our enemy does not exist?
You're gonna just take her word for it. No need to see evidence? No need to look at her character. If she says a prayer instantly heals a severed spine then that's what he prayer did. I'm seeing a pattern amongst believers here, and I may have to start using this group to market goods to. Perhaps I'll use ebay to sell photoshoped miracle pictures of Jesus appearing in a cloud. I just say he appeared after I prayed and I'll make a killing because nobody will question the validity of the photo.
And you call non-believers fools.The spirit gives us the ability to discern deceit.
A severed spine is not too hard for God His followers know. The spirit of her testimony was powerful. Now, I probably would not believe YOU if you exclaimed that the doctors at the hospital knit your brother's spine to provide the ability for him to walk. Now that is usually impossible! Science don't know nut'n bout that God knows EVERYTHING about it! It is not so hard to believe that God did it. Faith is key.
Trying to convince others that you have special powers, suggests a serious psychological disorder.
This has nothing to do with god, but all to do with a serious, and whimsical, disconnect from reality.
Please look for REAL answers, and stop this nonsense.You're right. I've changed and see the light. I believe as you believe and see as you do. I've had this picture kicking around from my flight on the way home from Florida last January of a cloud with the face of Jesus clearly imprinted. I knew it was there for a reason and now I know why. I'll send any believers a print for $49.99.
Since there is no indication of that in her response, I can only assume this is your own claim based on your interpretation? And, it would appear your presence here responding to her post is an attempt to justify her name calling?
Ouch! Although I don't speak for any care giver on the planet, I can only call upon the mighty FSM to touch them all with his noodley appendage so they may see this thread and respond accordingly.
I would, if He actually showed himself and asked me that question Himself?
Then, I would begin asking Him several thousand questions, some of which would include His great penchant for teaching His followers not to think, why He continues to use the failed system of reward/punishment for conducting his followers behavior rather then teaching them how to reason morals and ethics using the brains He gave them and most importantly, why He must demand all the credit.What won't be long? Sorry, I can't read your mind.
Oh now you are at the disadvantage of not being able to read minds? You have a lot of unanswered questions that you would like to ask but you don't know when "he" will show himself to you. Keep up!!!
You see, that's what is known as trolling. You provided a short generalized response to my post and I asked for clarity, but instead you focused on me.
I suspect that if you look back on some, if not most of your thousands of replies made, you may need to retract that accusation.
Well, this is a person who posts a thread called "Hot Button Issue" and then acts surprised when it causes spirited debate...
Spirited debate is always welcome, but of course we are here to establish which 'spirits' are guiding those debating?
Surprised??? Surely you jest
I am not surprised. If you remember, the Hot Button Topic is the name of Jesus. This conversation is my "proof" i still haven't really ascertained WHY it is such a hot topic. But if I remember correctly you were of the opinion that "it" was not the problem. His followers are rude and pushy. Have you seen that from me??? Yet, you have seen it here. Hmmm.
Tell me... who should I focus on in response to your post? I tenderly explained to you why I gave my short and seemingly generalized response
You have questions? "It won't be long" until YOU receive your ability to ask him face-to-face.I asked you to clarify a remark you made. What part of that don't you understand?
My mistake, you called me a child instead of telling me to calm down. I feel much better now. Sorry.
Actually it's scripture that calls non believers fools, I think that anybody who discounts God is foolish, but then again, it's a personal choice, to not believe, just not one I would think any wise person would make.
As for accepting her claim, why should I have reason to doubt it?
I have personally seen a miracle that God has allowed, so that's a fact I can accept, miracles happen.
The secular world must ALWAYS decry them, for the obvious reason that to accept Gods miracles would require demolishing their secularism and ceasing the rebellion.
Which of course is why they never see them themselves.Let me get this straight...in order for you to see a person as "wise" he must remain a silly child for the remainder of his life...fearful of reality, and evoking magic as the cause of things which he does not understand. OK. Makes perfect sense.
Yep. Using ones own common sense is such a rebellion. So you should stop your rebellion against Allah, shouldn't you?I think you are ALMOST understanding....
Matthew 18:2-4
Amplified Bible (AMP)
And He called a little child to Himself and put him in the midst of them,
And said, Truly I say to you, unless you repent (change, turn about) and become like little children [trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving], you can never enter the kingdom of heaven [at all].
Whoever will humble himself therefore and become like this little child [trusting, lowly, loving, forgiving] is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
It was not my common sense that allowed me to dismiss 'Allah' as God, it was my knowledge of the scriptures in both old and new covenants, compared against the Q'ran that allowed me to see the errors of the Islamic book.
1 Samuel 15:24
Amplified Bible (AMP)
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry....
You may never fully understand the consequences of your rebellion against God, until you meet with Him.
My prayer for you would be that you do one day recognise what you are doing, and come to repentance.
And, regardless of the fact we've seen that quote a million times before, you felt compelled to make it a million and one times.
I would think that a wise person would never choose one invisible super being over another, especially without evidence to support any of them.
You don't have reason, your religion has taught you that we are all fools for not accepting it and you have made it your personal choice, as you say, to make sure we hear that time and time again.
Yes, I'm sure you've made a personal choice to believe that. Good for you.
Actually, by accepting that miracles occur because no apparent terrestrial explanation was readily available, or if the claimant of the miracle was delusional or mentally disturbed, or they were simply lying, or they were... wait a minute, there are far too many reasons to list here to not accept miracles and your reason that it "would require demolishing secularism and ceasing the rebellion" is just one of them.You have a small grasp of the situation, you see Gods word is the same today as it will be for ever, and it truly does not matter if you have seen that quote a million times before, you will always refuse to understand it until, and unless you finally stop your rebellion and turn to God, or meet with Him in an eternal interview.
And I assure you that for as long as there are believers on this forum, you will continue to see Gods word preached and demonstrated to you.
Maybe that's why you are troubled?
NB: Incidentally, I somehow think that when you do meet with God, your irreverent and foolish questions will fade from your lips, and you will finally understand your offence.Odd you don't seem to understand why threats like this are what causes all the conflicts. Offence?
Funniest threat by a person with no authority today. How brave you are. I am impressed. You remind me why I dispensed with this religion in the first place - Daddy.
Save me a seat by the fire.Oh, but I do understand that quote, better than you believe in it.
And, while we're discussing it, let's make sure it's complete...
Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
You see, since we have seen this quote so many times repeated by folks here, it has become a focal point that undermines most if not all of the discussions regarding that faith, a bias entrenched in all those who aren't of that faith.
What's funny about it is that no matter how many times it's refuted by the simple fact that many great people who have accomplished great feats didn't believe in your god, yet the quote continually makes its way back into the forums. Hilarious.
Yes, yes it is, almost as difficult to fathom as to which is more troubling, the preaching or the demonstrations.
Was that preaching or was that a demonstration?
Man falls short from God's glory when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit...by their own free will, they ate the forbidden fruit and unleashed evil, pain, death, agony, and whatnot. Our finite mind cannot understand why He allowed such things to happen but these things, even man's unbelief that He exist, will never change the fact that He is a loving, merciful, powerful, and living God with righteous judgments.
That's the beauty of freewill: you can choose what you want to believe and embrace it. No one can force us to believe God, the Bible, and miracles. Believing these requires faith...and without faith, it would be impossible to believe spiritual things. Again, finite mind cannot understand an Infinite God.
Our minds understand your irrational belief in fairy tales quite easily.
Of course it take faith to believe in those fairy tales, it takes intelligence to understand what they are.Man's intelligence has its own limitation, that's from the beginning of time, he cannot fully answer life's basic questions...if you consider biblical truths as fairy tales, I have no problem with that as I cannot force people to believe what they don't want to believe...of course, you have your own beliefs that you're holding dearly that's why you say its fairy tales. Thousands of people, both with proven historical accounts proved the the Bible's content to be valid and it is as it is. Science cannot explain all things and its still researching so many things to unlock secrets of this and that. I appreciate science science it has a significant part of human's life but using it to prove spiritual things is a big disconnect.
That has absolutely nothing to do with your irrational beliefs in fairy tales. It's just a detraction. Try to be honest.
Sorry, but I don't hold beliefs, but I do understand that the religiously indoctrinated base everything on beliefs, a result of being indoctrinated.
We already understand that is entirely false. Try to be honest.
Of course, that's because "spiritual things" are just fairy tales.If that's false, then you have the burden to prove it to be false...
You were the one making the claims without any proof, so the burden is on YOU to show us your claims are valid.
You won't believe either even though so many people have presented evidences in this post. Now, the burden is for you to make me believe that this is false.
That is false, no evidence for gods as ever been presented. Try to be honest.
That would quite easy to do, however, you'd have to first break the vicious cycle of indoctrination that enslaves you to a religion.
Of course, that doesn't even account for the many hundreds of gods people believe exist.
Your statements are just plain silly.
Wow - did you get your other personas banned already?
Guess bearing false witness i no longer a sin huh?It's never been proved that the Bible is false or that God doesn't exist, or miracles don't happen either. NEVER BEEN PROVED at all.
No, don't feel sorry because its never been proven false and no matter how cynical, "intelligent", and "realistic" people call this false, it never will change the fact that it is true.
Watch how easy it is to make your statement utterly pointless.
It's never been proved that the Bible is true or that God exists, or miracles happen either. NEVER BEEN PROVED at all.- Then if you negate it that way, it pointless to debate. Let's stick to what we believe. Life is short so let's live according to what we choose to belief. It's been proven, and I don't want to bore you the details. So no matter how "fairytale" they sound to be, they are true. HIS words versus your words, I prefer to believe HIS words
That's because it isn't even a debate, it is a matter of fact that you nor anyone else can provide proof of your god. Simple really.
I prefer to stick to understanding rather than believing.
We already know that's a lie. Try to be honest.
Yes, I understand your religious indoctrination causes you to believe in fairy tales and lies.And I also understand that you are a very troubled man, so I'll just take that impression.
And, like most believers, you resort to personal insults when your fairy tales are exposed for what they are.
No, I'm stating a fact based on what is stated by you. See?
No, you are tossing out a personal insult, and you know it. Stop lying, please.
Have you called yourself "Not Troubled Man", I will call you that. But since it came from you, there's no way I'm lying. But again, I completely understand. I'm not insulting you. Please be honest and understand that these words came from you. These words you shared in this forum have no intent of enlightening your mind but rather to mess up and ridicule people who believes HIM. I completely understand that since you are not the first one who do that. Again, coming from a troubled man, that's understandable. I wish you blessings.
From a troubled heart comes troubled thoughts..and I take that your words comes from a troubled mind. I do hope that you will find your peace.
Actually she is probably just bored with your failed rhetoric.
Resorting to personal insults is not the answer for being bored, dude.
She said: "And I also understand that you are a very troubled man"
Your name is A Troubled Man, and to any believer, it is apparent that Christianity does indeed trouble you, where's the 'personal insult'?
You chose the name, you do express extremely troubled posts about Christ, you use words designed to cause unrest in any believer when you say 'fairytale' with no substance behind calling the book that nearly 60% of the worlds populace hold as Holy that insult.
Then cry wolf????
Kitchens and heat mi amigo, I missed you when you were gone, I think you are a pain in the rear end sometimes, but I enjoy you being here on the occasions you actually get it right. (sorry, no pun intended)Keep it up and you'll get banned, too, the moderators here are not so dense as you believe they are and do understand what personal insults are.
My, you are touchy today!
I made a remark about how you were possibly misconstruing what she said, and IMO she was not going for you in a personal manner, beyond pointing out what your name actually stated, a name which you chose.
She is a newbie, cut her some slack, you are right to remind her of the TOS, and I would guess that like most newbies, she has not read it.
I am here about three days a month at the moment, and only really jumped into this one as genaea was being mobbed by you guys.
I don't come here for conflict, but I do enjoy ribbing you lot, so lighten up; I did miss you when you were banned last, that is no lie, and yes you do aggravate me on occasion, that is no insult.
If you are beginning to get too involved here, step back a day and let your anger dismiss, it's just a forum, nobody is going to change anything here, it's just a pastime, if it's become more serious than that to you, then it's probably a potential problem you should look at.
And I mean that sincerely, this is no dig at you!
Peace 'dude'John - this one is about the 20th fake persona in teh last 3 weeks. lol
Still - thought you might like this to see how insignificant we really are.
Nice photos, and I can agree that God has many favourites, and the ability to love them all!
So you are saying this woman is a sock puppet? - is that an opinion or a fact you can prove?
Not doubting you, just curious.
Anyhow, like I said, bedtime!
See you tomorrow if you come out to play!He was showing you how incredible small we are in the universe. One one tiny planet on the outskirts of our galaxy and one of billions of galaxies and possibly one of billions of universes for all we know. It's not like God made all that for us. Is it?
Why not? God is infinite. A few lil stars don't phase him
maybe he just wanted to give you guys something to look at. Why don't you land in one of those, tell us what's there. Inquiring minds... Just look at all the "variety" here, alone. We got fish and stuff we can't even see, or study. Let alone all the ones we can. We can only go so far down. We can only go so far up. He has secrets known to no one.
Sorry you didn't understand. It must be very frustrating for you.
This is a little off topic and of course only relates to your post and not to the post you were referring to. Mental illness is frustrating, but mostly to those around them. I have an in-law with Alzheimer's and while it's sometimes frustrating for the narcissistic pain in my side to be loosing his memory. It's 10 times more frustrating for those how surround him because he's still a self centred dictator, but now he NEEDS constant attention where before he only WANTED constant attention.
Sorry, carry on, you were just acknowledging another's frustrations.
So if it's a personal insult, I take that you insult yourself by calling yourself "A Troubled Man." Even this very thing, obvious and plain, cannot be negated as false since it's you who called yourself that way. Troubled thoughts from a troubled heart does not bear wise and intelligent words after all.
I can only assume this must be your first day on an internet forum and you have yet to understand what constitutes personal insults. Keep em comin and you'll get banned. Do you understand?
I agree...it's repeating on and on and on his side, never proven it to be false at all. But again, it's words from a troubled heart, so I understand.
You consider repeating the phrase "you cannot prove your fairy tales are true" a confirmation of truth?
Isn't it funny how we are repeating the same phrases. I am still here Mark.
I don't think I will be subject to playing the new persona game. You will always be able to address me as meShe had repeated my statement. So actually you were, sorta.
I prefer Harry Potter. The plot is more interesting and more believable. Of course, being an adult, you do know that this is all make believe...right...?
- Sorry, in my case,it's not. This "fairy tale" turned my life upside down in a better way; Harry Potter did not. ;P
Only because of a serious disconnect from reality.
Do you realize that you cannot actually life "inside" the fairy tale? Once you finish reading the book, you continue living in the REAL world. The fairy tale doesn't translate to your real life. There are specialists for people who don't understand that.Choose what you want to be believe...and I'll choose mine. It's just how simple it is. WE are all entitled to choose.
Yes, just as we are entitled to show you how ridiculous your beliefs are, especially when compared to reality, they are but fairy tales.
Glad you have no problem with that.;P Again, I take that you are a troubled man.
And I even find your beliefs more ridiculous knowing that everything around you, even you, simply speaks that HE exist and yet you as an intelligent being cannot comprehend it. It's ridiculous to see even people who claim themselves to be "intelligent" cannot understand SIMPLE truths.
Since when is ancient fairy tales from Bronze Age goat herders TRUTHS? You still refuse to stop living your life deep from within the pages of an ancient fairy tale. From a psychological point of view, this is frightening!
I often wondered why people like you who claimed that the Bible is not true still adhere to the universal laws such as "Thou Shalt Not Kill", "Thou Shalt Not Steal", "Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife", et cetera. Universal laws are based on the Bible and there's no need to debate it or prove it because it's been proven and accepted as the absolute truth. No matter what you people say, again, it won't prove that our belief is not true. Honestly, I find this pointless, but I enjoyed having you here. ;P
That's another LIE. Morals predate your fraudulent beliefs by thousands of years, lest there would be no humans left. Your religion just attached itself to morals, although your religion is in itself violates said morals by lying.
More LIES. Absolutely nothing you said has been proven. Nothing! Accepted by deluded minds is not proof of anything.I often wonder why Christians or over represented in jails and Atheists make up less than one persent of the jail population?
I often wonder why Christians think it's okay to kill if there government trains and gives the orders? No Atheists in the fox holes!
I often wonder why Republican's (mostly Christians) don't think women should have equal pay for equal work?
Don't you as a Christian wonder about these things or are you busy throwing the first stone?Sorry, can't relate since I don't know what statistics you're talking about...either worldwide or just your nation? Republicans and politics in your country, I'm not aware of. And also, there's a big difference when you say "nominal" Christians and true Christians. In the country, I would say atheist have 95% population in jail. The reason: they don't value it since people are just animals that are on the highest order.
By the way, Christians never think it's okay to kill.
In what country are the jails filled with 95% atheists? In the U.S. (not my country) Atheists make up less then 1% of the prison population. People how call themselves Christians or overly represented.
I find this discussion absolutely pointless with all the statistics and what not...numbers that might be manipulated by surveys. Bye for now. Time for bed.
Religion was offered to the blacks, thank God! Then they filled the jails with them
Simple. No issue, God visits them. But atheists are more likely to be white, according to Wiki. Also, the more money, the less likely to believe. No wonder the needle-eye declaration. However, some strict atheists are morally sound. I have seen that myself. So are some of God's children. The stat as well displayed that atheism is the minority, population-wise. Nevertheless, God is all-powerful. You will see it one day.This statement has me completely confused. Isn't religion offered to everyone? Why did they fill the jails with now religious blacks? Perhaps I'm confused because my country doesn't have the same racial problems that the U.S. does. We certainly have racial problems, but just not the same as we didn't keep slaves we tried to free them. So please explain your statements.
No, you and I or anything else are not indications of Gods existence. In fact, when we look at all living things, we observe they came about through evolution, not a magical sky fairy.
Will you now be telling me evolution is an evil fairy tale?Lol!!! You prefer evolving from "nothing"? I am not totally schooled on evolution. Apes??? How'd they get here? The "smart" single cell??? Hmmm. Maybe God is a single celled organism
He is ABSOLUTELY marvelous and kind and walks me through life. I am grateful. I must tell you Say what you may... It aint my fault you can't hear me. I'm talking.
Wanna hear some more???Then, you probably should get schooled so you can understand our past and be able to comment intelligently on the subject.
Are you kidding??? This entire conversation is littered with your "programmed" responses. I think there are 3 or 4 one-liners???
if you call THAT "intelligent"... well, I guess I choose NO SCHOOL i dont wont no telligents, thats what it do. I am not at all surprised. That is one of the biggest issues with religions, keeping its followers ignorant, delusional and dishonest.
OK:
Believer assert nonsensical premise.
Believer's assertion is challenged by logical opposition.
Believer experiences cognitive dissonance.
Believer assuages cognitive dissonance by making irrelevant evasive comment.
Religion is a horrible mind destroying concept.I am a Christian and Christianity is not a religion; it is a personal relationship with God. Yes, religion is very confusing so I am not holding to any religion but I'm embracing Christianity, a relationship with my Maker.
- Sorry, but Christianity IS a religion, by definition.
And sorry, Christianity, is not a religion...please research the origin of the word "Christian" and "Christianity" rather than merely defining it. That's what intelligent people do.
Considering there are countless references to Christianity as a religion, I can only conclude you are lying.
They also have no need to lie. Your own statement speaks volumes.If there is no God (though I am completely convinced that He exists no matter what you say, which doesn't trouble me at all) and I believe in Him, I HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE. But if there is God and I don't believe that He exists, well, I have so much to lose. By the way, this will be my last response to this forum since I find it all pointless. As in, pointless. No matter what you respond to this, it's pointless since you will never change our stand just like we won't be able to change your stand. Again, I HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE by believing that HE EXIST! AMEN! TO HIM BE ALL THE PRAISES, THE GLORY, AND THE MAJESTY.
Why so angry and shouting?
Still - your odds are a little off. Assuming you accept the possibility of a god - you must accept that there are an infinite number of possible gods.
Therefore the chances of you choosing the correct god are infinity:1
Therefore you are choosing very long odds because your god is infinitely improbable.
On the other hand a god exists - or not - so the chance of there being no god is (at worst) 50:50.Not really Mark... if what Christ states is correct, that He is the ONLY way to the Father, then believers are secure.
If pantheism is correct and all roads lead to God, no problem.
If Judaism is correct, then righteousness wins the day, and believers are covered by Christ's righteousness, so we are judged by the same standard as the Jews.
If Islam were correct, well maybe we are stuffed, but it's a 'chance' I am happy to take, because I have studied Islam enough to know it's not correct (though that's not to say that some Muslims would be out of luck either with Christ as judge, because our hearts are more relevant than our words.)
If Atheism is correct, no sweat, we are all dust and nothing else.
None of the other religions make any claim to being the only way, so we either end up recycled or united with the cosmic force dependent upon one of them actually being the only way.
Nope, overall I am content that the God who communicates with me is the one to be with.That's a big IF though isn't it? Basing your entire life around misquoted drivel that no one can agree on and no one knows who wrote down.
Risky business.
I was not talking about religion. A True god would not need worship and would not have deliberately caused such confusion. Realistically - if you accept the premise of a god - there must be an infinite number of possible gods.
Therefore the chances of your god existing are infinitely improbable.I know. What a risk though. Considering the odds. Scary.
No risk Mark, just total peace with the situation, now if I were relying on the cartoon piece you posted, THEN I would be scared!
I am totally at peace with God, however, there is a whole lot of the world giving me flack at the moment, maybe you are picking up on that?
Notice that your "If" statements contradict your last statement?
In the public eye, anyone who claims God communicates with them usually receive psychiatric evaluations.Ahh, but we are not in the public eye are we.... and what you think is irrelevant.
God will communicate with you also someday.What is God waiting for?
It's one thing to have dialogue in your head, but it's another thing to think that part of the dialogue is coming from an external force. For that, there is medication.No need for medication, it's actually quite normal for believers to hear from God, maybe impossible for you to understand, but quite normal for anybody of a spiritual nature and understanding.
You would probably have had a similar response about radio waves had you been born 250 years ago, before we were able to recognise them.Radio waves can actually be used to communicate.
Yes we did this before when I asked you to get God to give you information about me. You can't because the communication does not be beyond your head.
To bad because it sure would me a believer out of me if you could prove you talk to God. I guess God doesn't want me to believe.God told me you're married into an Italian family. And, that you think I'm the nicest person in the world.
Hey, now...you never specified how I was supposed to 'receive' these transmissions.
agua, I'm just having a little fun here. Please know that I don't mean to offend you in any way.
God does not participate in Vaudville. His name aint Houdini
When someone claims to communicate directly with God I have the right to call him on it. If God wants people to believe in him why not show himself. Don't you see the irony in a God that wants worship and belief, but doesn't show himself?
When someone claims to be a prophet we should make sure he is sane and then give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him for proof. That's all I'm doing. First I asked him if he is okay and then asked for evidence. I'm not going to drink the cool aidWant some living water???
God proves himself to his children. The devil knows he is there, but wants his followers blinded. I guess
He will prove all you need once you accept him. You see his work then. When he works in your life now you ignore it. Won't see. But hey, you got your own brains. If they lead you more correcter. Then follow them. I won't come to your forums with my nonsense.
You have first hand knowledge of what happens when you constantly deny what is right.
Again I have no idea what you are talking about? I am not denying what is right. It is right to question, so you don't get taken. I only ask for evidence. A guy stops you on the street and says he needs $400 to get home on the bus. Do you take his word for it and give the $400 or do you question him or just walk by?
When someone claims to have dialogues with God and God gives him information and puts words in his mouth, do you take his word for it?God's word is the only that I have found to be true. It is in the bible. Now there are other words that may trip you up, but God will be on hand during your "tour" every step of the way. Believe he knows his stuff or don't. What is so HARD about that???
To someone who is constantly exposed for filling these forums with fabrications, I can understand your problem.
LOL! Another masked threat?
I see you are a gambling man. Let us see... 50/50 odds that my Jesus is real... Hmmm... All them people may be on to something. I try those odds. I really try. I hit the "jackpot", one night, HE COMES TO VISIT ME while I am all alone, crying. He "somehow" dries my tears, takes the lonliness away, gives me the ONLY solution to my problem (that everyone else said would not work) and then, the next day, it all JUST UNFOLDS just like he told me it would; one occurrence after another. Then the one thing that I thought was impossible, becomes reality before my eyes. Then he sends another "witness" to THE VERY words he spoke to me, when he came that night. Then another witness. My "impossibility" possible and excexuted. I win. I win BIG.
Faith is AMAZING. God is AMAZING. Once you are beneath his wing, so to speak, you become aware. Impossible??? Not possible.Pure fantasy. My ex had psychotic episodes like that too. There is therapy and medication for such disconnects from reality. Have you looked into them, are you currently taking any psychotropic drugs or seeing a counselor? I'm being serious.
You, are my psychotic drug. I need no other. I am psychic??? Remember I said UNFOLDED just like he said. Then witnesses. At least 3.
You can not believe with no problem. I can't.The mind can concoct a link between any totally unrelated events, if the mind is determined in its effort to support its delusion. My ex suffered from bi-polar disorder, and would do this when she was off her meds. I understand this all too well, as I'm a former social worker.
My younger brother claims to be a psychic...he says that he has also been abducted by UFOs. There is no evidence to support any of his claims, yet he becomes extremely irate when you try to convince him to seek mental health. Unfortunately, my brother is suffering from some type of psychosis.
Here are just some of the characteristics the vast majority of believers lose...
Integrity, honesty, respect, sanity, reality, thinking, intelligence and a host of others.
Here are some of the characteristics they display...
Hypocrisy, contradiction, dishonesty, superiority, bigotry, delusion and a host of others.
No one is trying to stop you from believing in fairy tales and disassociating yourself from reality, you're perfectly free and protected to do so, by law.
Do you believe that shouting on an internet forum is going to help you in any way?You have made my day!
Pointless, as in pointless??? I am in tears (literally). I have said that another way, about 170 times. Why would you join and be so fiery about a conversation concerning "Pinocchio"??? I mean heck! After the nose, it's over. Right??? Which lead me to further consider. Hmmm...maybe they want to. Jesus would be here. Actually, he is maybe not so "pointless" afterall.
Sure, and a BMW is not a car; it's the ultimate driving machine. Using trickery has always aided those who lack integrity.
You expect me to believe that you are FRIENDS WITH, and personally KNOW the creator of the universe? HOW SPECIAL! That's completely disturbing, and extremely comical.
A mere carbon based life form, with no real significance whatsoever can have a relationship with an omniscient, omnipotent creator. Wow! Let's see your peer reviewed proof.- Indeed, how special I am! I don't deny that...Oh no, I'm not just a person who evolved from a single celled protozoa who came from nothing and then that nothing became a being...That explanation is what I find ridiculous.
It's perfectly ok to have self esteem, but having Grandiose delusions is quite a disturbing disorder,
Of course not, you are descended from a man, and his rib, that your ancient bumbling god made into a female...then was told to be fruitful and multiply.
Now that makes perfect sense.Unless my memory is wrong. God made woman only to entertain Men, but then decided they should have more.
Bye, pips...I find these conversation pointless anyways.
It enjoyed playing around, though.
Of course you are not a product of a single celled organism. You are a product of your parents moods lining up many years ago. You started out as a single cell that night and kept multiplying. Wait, then yes you did infact start out as a single cell.
A cell that originate from where? From my parents...and then from my parents, where? And on and on and on, and it goes to your belief that I came from a single celled protozoa. But nothing can pull me from my belief as a SPECIAL, and yes, WONDERFULLY made being made by an intelligent, loving, powerful, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God, just as you made up your mind not to be pulled by your atheistic views. Bye for now. Time for bed....play time is over.
I know this is untimely but what the HA.
Aqua wrote … Jeremiah tells us that BEFORE we were born God KNEW us, and Psalm 139 tells us that He knew the number of our days before we were born as well.
So the start point, when we were injected into this physical body, and the end point, when we leave it, are already established.
= \ =
ME … “injected into this physical body” ,,,,, I like that! … If we have any form of free will while we are in these physical bodies, I would think that we HAD free will in choosing these bodies and the life experiences which we are having and will have. ( many subjects come to mind).
In comparison to how long God has known us, the length of time that we are in these bodies is nothing. I can not understand or agree with the concept that the choices we make while in this short life can out weigh everything else that God has known about us for eternity, that we burn in hell for the rest of eternity for a few bad choices ???
Compared to eternity, our lives here on earth seems kinda like a weekend at Disney Land. We do have the capabilities to make life here on earth Heaven or hell. If I decide to jump off a building at Disneyland, is that Walt’s fault?I think sinking into religion can be like drugs and alcohol for some people, they get so lost in the experience, they can't be pulled out again.
I too am a Christian and a preacher's daughter as well. Things have not changed much over the years for me. If I admit I am a PK, people always want to express their opinion. They just always seem to forget that I am polite and ask questions without putting down their opinions so they should return the respect. If we would remember the rule the USA used to endorse, treat people the way you want to be treated, there would be a more peaceful world.
I'm a preacher's kid too. Most of the time that's a great motivation for becoming an atheist.
Did you really just not pay attention, and decipher all the BS lies that the prior generations force fed us?I like a lot of others read Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code. I, then, went to my dad and started to ask questions. He said yes a group got together and picked the book to include in the Bible. They left out repetitive books,etc. I questioned their right to tell us what we can and can't read, but realized it is all still there for us to look at if we want. My parents studied under the same denomination, but still interpreted several things differently. It made me more tolerant not less.
Yes, the U. S. endorsed quite a bit of scripture way back when...
Hi PK yes, I have heard about you guys Years ago, the church was my second home and I am sure I spent half my life in a pew. Life with God is wonderful though my church days are behind me. Thanks for joining the conversation. Yes, they are vicious! But God is vicious-er!!! Happy hubbing.
I think you just need to get used to the fact that not everyone agrees with you and they are free to tell you that.
I identify myself as one who believes in universal salvation and I speak of it.... occasionally. I have found myself bombarded by 'well meaning Christians' who think I'm deceived by Satan. I just groan within because these people choose not to question what they have been taught. I am convinced of my position by objective study of the bible and history, rather than warm fuzzy feelings inside and an irrational fear of that which does not exist.
So whilst you object to those that laugh at your faith, consider whether or not you look upon me with great sadness that Satan has deceived me and I'm going to hell.It is written, "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him; not can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1Corinthians 2:14
If one does not embody the Spirit of God, they are unable to understand those things that only God can reveal. Our God is a God of revelation.Notice that there is no explanation as to why the natural man considers things of the Spirit of God, foolishness?
It is one of the problems of religions, scriptural verses that make no sense because they are without explanation.That information, you don't need. You come up with your own reasons.
Exactly, which is why believers can fabricate any nonsense they want and wind up believing it, justified by their rejection of any information. Imagination rules the worldview.
Words for fearful blind followers to embrace. Yes!
You mean unless one becomes psychotic. Your God reveals nothing. Psychosis is real.That's an easy thing to say when someone disagrees with what you have to say. It states that you do not have to provide evidence for your beliefs. I wasn't aware that our creator expects us to commit intellectual suicide. Makes you wonder why he gave us a brain and a thirst for learning at all.
He gave your heart (soul) a longing for him. See? You cannot get enough of wrestling with it.
He gave you a mind because he has one. You are made in his image. Self, when adored, adds a level of strife with God. You begin to think you are "self-sufficient", forgetting that you know nothing. You must channel your thoughts and MAKE them to "behave" along certain lines. If you let go of Him, he No longer has power over your life. He allowed you to choose.I think we're back to the old argument aren't we Genaea; 'I'm right because I know in my heart that Jesus told me'. Not forgetting 'if you don't agree with me then you are resisting Jesus'.
Listen, it seems as though we have run this conversation full-course. We conclude with, you don't love Jesus, and I do. Safe to say?
No genaea, I don't think you love Jesus. What you are doing, is to satisfy your ego. In fact, I have a suspicion that you work for the 'adversary'.
Wow! Such a declaration from one who wears the "mark".
Thank You for stopping by 666 is a riddle, revealed only to the faithful genaea.
As you answer from the perspective of an ignorant one regarding 666, I presume you are not enlightened, and is the reason why you talk as if God approves slavery. DO NOT SLANDER GOD, for he is your lord.The God of the bible condones slavery.
Commandment #10. You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Ephesians 6:5 (NLT)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
Colossians 3:22 (NLT)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything you do. Try to please them all the time, not just when they are watching you. Serve them sincerely because of your reverent fear of the Lord.
You will notice nowhere in the bible or the 10 commandments does it say do not keep slaves. It's certainly not one of the 10 commandments.I only said God, not biblical anthropomorphic version. Your problem is, you are seeing Zeus(old man with beard), when you hear God.
Oh, you have your very own version of God. You're not using the bible to tell you what God is so you must be making your very own stuff up.
When I hear the word God I don't see anything at all. Do you? Can't hear nor see or even detect him or her. Why? Because no one is there.So you have seen or detected dark matter or dark energy?
Have you seen dinosaurs?dark matter was predicted in Einsteins equations and can be detected in the expansion of the universe, but I still don't know it's there.
I have seen dinosaur fossilized bones. I'm reasonably sure they once walked the earth.
No evidence for a God exists. Do you have any?You have not seen dinosaurs, as I assumed. You saw a skeleton and 'understood' it to be dinosaurs'.
You saw the motion of galaxies and stars and based on an equation deducted there is a mass there. You have not seen dinosaurs nor detected dark matter. Dark matter can be God's hands for all we know.
Yet, you cannot see the God behind the galaxies, stars, pulsars, their precise motion?
A flat-lander cannot see 3D. We humans have difficulty in understanding 4D. So, how can you even hope to understand something that is multidimensional? You are still thinking in terms of the humanized version perpetuated by religions, hence you refuse to see the evidence in front of your eyes.Dark matter has been detected and I've seen the bones of dinosaurs. Now show me your evidence so I can see or detect it.
Not detected and that is why it is called "dark". The given matter in galaxies(or stars) cannot account for the its motion. So dark matter is put forward as an explanation to the 'abnormal' movements we observe.
http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/fo … rk-energy/
Have you seen dinosaurs, was my question. I agreed about bones.
The universe, that is the evidence.Dark matter has been detected using math and is detected by the expansion of the universe.
Dinosaur bones are evidence of Dinosaurs.
The universe is evidence of what? If you are claiming the universe is evidence of a creator then you are off your rocker. Now if we were in fact at the centre of the universe and everything evolved around us (all star, planets, moons, galaxies) then that would at least be a hint of evidence. We are however a little spec on the outer rim of our own galaxy.Can you detect your lost pen with maths? To detect anything, we need our sense organs or instruments that are an extension of our sense organ like infra red sensors which detect things which our organs cannot 'see'. Which instrument is used to detect dark matter which is perfectly transparent? No, dark matter is predicted based on equations, not detected.
I agree. Similarly the universe is evidence of god. You can consider universe as the 'bones/body' of god.Sorry you don't understand. It must be very frustrating for you. Why don't you start another sock puppet account.
Didn't I say the expansion of the universe?
No, I can not consider the universe as the 'bones/body' of god. Perhaps you can, but if you do your making a ridiculous leap because that leap causes more questions to be answered then we had before. Who created God? How can he live forever when everything known to man has a beginning and an ending? Why does God not reveal himself?
Time for some critical thinking.You have an unrealistic self image. You think you stand judge over God.
Wait . . . I am having a vision of your future. You have a big surprise coming.Exactly where did I say I stand judge over God? You are making the ridiculous assumption that there is a God. You are making this assumption because you have been lied to and indoctrinated.
Like I said, you have an unrealistic self image. As a matter of fact, you are not in touch with reality at all.
Perhaps it's your lack of self esteem that's causing you to need to be treated as a child. I don't share that problem with you. We live and we die. There is no evidence for a creator, you have been lie to just as you were about Santa and the Tooth fairy.
Whatever's clever. Good luck with that viewpoint!
Didn't you read the link?
Dark matter cannot be detected. The expansion and galactic movements cannot be explained by the detectable mass of the universe, hence it is PRESUMED that some undetectable (hence dark) matter is there. Just like dinosaurs, it is not because we have seen them, but we need it to explain some observed phenomena (bones, expansion/rotation).
Your questions
1. Who created universe?
2. You are again equating god to a human, god is not human 'to live'. The god is universe.
3.Question is why are you not seeing? You saw dark matter and dinosaur, without seeing them(The film Bruce Almighty might help you).One last time. Dark matter was predicted by Einstein and whatever it is, it's detectable by the expansion of the universe. We have evidence that Dinosaurs were once alive because of the fossilized bones they left behind.
There is no evidence for a Creator.
1. You assume the Who instead of What? What created the universe. I don't know, humans are looking into this.
2. God is not human, but according the bible we were created in his image. The bible is useless and there is no God.
3. A film about a guy making is dog pee in the toilet will not change my thinking. You see a creator because you were lied to and indoctrinated as was I. I matured as should you.No, Einstein's original equations didn't take the expansion of the universe into account so he alter the equation because his equation showed an expanding universe.
Now, you are just guessing. Ask any Native American, it isn't expanding, it is all circular and only seems to be expanding from earth in the short time we have been watching.
You don't understand either. Einstein's equations haven't changed or bettered since they were written around more then 100 years ago. Science is constantly trying to disprove his theories and equations and have yet to do so.
It is the scientific way to learn form each other.When you learn from one who knows the same nothing, you learn... Uh...To be where you are, I guess. Learn from one who has all the answers. Seems smartest to me; but you follow who you want, your call.
I don't follow anyone. I learn from people. What makes humans successful is our ability to trade knowledge. Want an iPad? Get money, buy iPad.
Who decides what "successful" is? You? The people you "learn" from???
So show us the ONE we are to learn from. So far you have only talked about some deity of which you can't, and haven't, produced the slightest of evidence. Come on! This is the way con artist work. Why doesn't this bother you? Do you seriously experience no cognitive dissonance, while stating such misleading outrageous dishonesty? Wow!
Fir starters, you also speak of things that you cannot fully explain with evidence. Though you believe what you have read in other books, the bible speaks of the one for whom you seek.
Now I know that he is a bit hard for you to grasp, but only because you have not asked him into your domain. It tskes faith that he is there to do that. Once you seriously ask, you prove your faith to him. Then he gives you whatever you want. Now This subject is a whole page or two because that does not mean that he is now your personal assistant that you order around. When you follow him, his desires start to become your desires. He wants to see you face to face. You "want" for nothing, though you dont get everything you want. Truth is...most of our "w/o God" desires are not good for us and/or those around us. We, God's children, are not spoiled brats who demand that we get OUR way. We may not understand, but the plan is set. Faith follows faithfully But please remember, one "monkey" don't stop no show. If you don't want your gift, someone else will have it. God's plan goes forth, with or without you.Wrong.
* A few old (not shiny) pennies
* 1/4 cup white vinegar
* 1 teaspoon salt
* Non-metal bowl
* Paper towels
1. Pour the vinegar into the bowl and add the salt - stir it up.
2. Put about 5 pennies into the bowl and count to 10 slowly.
3. Take out the pennies and rinse them out in some water. Admire their shininess!
So do you want me to explain how this happens?
Copper Oxide is what causes pennies to rust. Vinegar, which is an acid, acts with the Salt to remove the Copper Oxide.
I read this in an elementary science book. But I also tried the experiment. It works. I have also explained, in detail, how you can do it as well, along with an explanation of what is occurring scientifically.
On the other hand, all YOU have is deception, anger, and madness.
That violates the laws of science, therefore it is a lie. A being who has never been seen or heard, or detected by any scientific instruments is nonexistent.
Then I guess I'll start hating gays, minorities, woman, people who work on the sabbath, fig trees, snakes, etc...crikey! I'll even have a desire to ignore slavery, and the starving children...no thanks!
After looking at the desires of your biblical vermin of a god...It appears that his desires are much, much worse.
No God's children are not spoiled brats. The emotional and psychological issues afflicting God's children are on a much higher and terrifying level.
Furthermore, you have not produced one morsel of evidence, yet you still smugly, and confidently, keep describing what this THING WITH NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER can do. At this point, you have lost ALL CREDIBILITY!!!You sound like my skit about the tooth fairy!
I do not want credibility. It belongs to God.
Surely BY NOW, you have proven your point to yourself.
It was nice talking to you! Have a great weekend!!!
I'm not sure why you thanked him for that comment. His comment showed a complete lack of intelligence and knowledge. If I were you I wouldn't align myself with comments like that.
Just saying.
One last time. Einstein PREDICTED dark matter. People think there is dark matter because the universe is expanding faster than they thought. DARK MATTER IS NOT SEEN OR DETECTED by any human alive.
We only have the bones, from that we explain there was an organism called dinosaurs to leave behind such bones.
In either case we are ASSUMING there was such a thing to leave the Present evidences.
I didn't say creator, I only said God.
Who created god, I do not know. But it not wrong to suppose god is eternal.
According bible? Who cares about bible? I said the universe is the evidence of god, or universe is god, not bible.
It is my fault that I was not clear enough. In the last seen (if I remember correctly) we were shown a beggar and later when the close up is shown he is transformed in to god. What I meant was you are not seeing God, but only the beggar, even though all the evidence is in front of you, but you could see dark matter with only an equation to support it(in case of dinosaurs, at least there was tangible physical evidence).Dark matter is detected by the expansion of the universe.
We are not assuming anything. We have physical evidence.
Call it whatever you like. I can't help you there.
You are wrong to SUPPOSE god is.
That's like saying a tree is evidence of the sky.
Because the evidence points to something. Dinosaur bones=dinosaurs, Universe=unknown at present time. Perhaps there doesn't have to be an answer as to why we are here, we just are, be happy and enjoy because the sun can't shine every day.Now what difference you got from the genaea here? She is just regurgitating a book by barbarians 2000 years ago and you, its modern version.
Dark matter is put forward as an explanation to explain the discrepancies between the actual and observed acceleration of the expansion of universe. Expansion of universe will not detect anything, it need a human being to detect.
We have physical bone, not dinosaur. From the bone we assume that a creature walked on the earth to leave behind such bones.
You said there is no evidence for a creator, I said I didn't say creator but God. Both are DIFFERENT.
Explain. There can never be a creator, for the same question, 'who created the creator?', god is eternal.
How is that, I said a tree(universe) is tree(god) and a tree is an evidence for a tree.
There is no answer for 'why we are here'. It is we are here, hence we are asking.
Ever heard of the story of a good (discontented) Brahmin (and the content old women) by Voltaire?
You must refrain. I am in slander of nothing. Have you not been reading? Your riddle has been solved, by Jesus long ago. To be fooled seems to be a relative phenomenon. To me, you are fooled; but I cannot convince you of that. You get the tattoo too???
Have your way for your life. I want the way of God.You do not know?
Yet you say god condones slavery.
Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." matthew:16-23Yet you talk about slavery that he supposedly condoned. You think God is concerned about slavery??? Is that not man's concern. Jesus is the way. NOT condemning slave-owners.
Who arr WE to judge???
From what I hear...God condoned slavery. It's all over the beginning of the bible. It happened; do you think he did not? He can STOP whatever, with a whisper. He did not stop slavery; that is factual. But he sure did free a lot of people from it.
Now, is someone in the room with you??? I think you mistook me for someone elseIs this fellow called god, a barbarian or a sadistic bafoon?
If jesus is the same fellow, no wonder he committed suicide, this is a psycho.Yet, you take a chunk out of your life to discuss it with others. Powerful, if nothing else
Mostly to ask if you wouldn't mind keeping it to yourself, because it makes you behave badly.
You are indeed the adversary. How can you say god is love and god condones slavery in the same breath?
It is the job of devil to perpetuate falsehood about god, but you are doing it perfectly, now.Riddle666, it is blatantly obvious that I AM indeed YOUR adversary.
If you are saying that God did not allow slavery, something that actually did occur, you are sadly mistaken. He had to allow it, it happened. Nothing on earth can occur without God allowing it. He allows murder everyday; you watch the news??? He also forgives the murderer who forsakes his way too Man is free to decide to follow God or not. He condoned the murder of Jesus He allowed his servant Job to be stripped of everything he owned, including his health. He condones a lot of foolishness. Do you know the definition of condone???
You may fool many, but your riddle is public knowledge to the children of God. Now get in YOUR correct position; though my feet don't need to "rest" I am running.
Now solve THATYes, Gods allowance is indistinguishable from His non-existence, it's like He wasn't even there.
Which is why we have laws and why prisons are filled with Christians.You my adversary? Why should a nameless faceless person on the net who knows nothing outside the bible, nay who even wrote it, be my adversary? You are painting God as a petty, barbaric, human savage. If you described me like that I would take offence, any intelligent modern human would. Only an adversary need to paint someone as bad, and you are doing it about God, I don't know on whose bidding. Hence you are an adversary of God.
You have proven one of my many points!
you are confused.
Where there is no God, there can be nothing but. Ok???
You broke into the conversation a declaration that I was "indeed the adversary" and explained to me why you came to that conclusion. When I confirmed your assertion that I was indeed YOUR adversary; you then question YOUR OWN original assertion; along with more explaination why NOT??? Need I say more? Yesss
God is God. He will not fit into the neat little understanding of what SEEMS right to YOU. He runs his kingdom.
We have instructions on how to follow his word. You have the OPPOSITE view.
You may fool some; but God will get/keep the faithful to him. YOU have no power, and you know it.And your basis for saying that?
I said you are God's adversary not mine or are you saying you are God, or is it me?
God is God. He is not a petty king to run a kingdom. "He will not fit into the neat little understanding of what SEEMS right to YOU."
We have no such instructions. There is nothing to suggest that the book you say as instructions is not from the adversary. There are far more falsehoods and slanders about god in that book, to rival the one from the adversary.
He will not fit into the neat little understanding of what SEEMS right to YOU.
Understand
God is not a petty king.
God is not a barbarian.
God is not a savage.
God is not an ignorant fool.
God is not a male chauvinist pig.I agree TOTALLY with your ending. A little bit of this; little bit of that; huh???
I am on the side of the king. You are his adversary, therefore mine. No wonder all your confusion.
It is "kind" of you to show your "true" self in this post.
At least those who want to say yes will not be fooled by your "disguise".Yet it is you who said god condones slavery and kills people everyday, and it is the enemy who says such things.(adversary :a person or group that is hostile to someone; enemy http://www.thefreedictionary.com/adversary)
Confusion? You are the person who say contradictory things. The confusion is at your end.
You say God is love then say he kills.
You say you are on God's side then slander Him telling that He is a murderer. Confusion??
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. matthew:12-32
Isn't this what they said about Jesus? Now do you want to crucify me, for telling the "truth"?There is no truth in what you are saying. I did not say that God kills people everyday at all. You made that up
but you cannot help your confusion. Did you find the word condone while you were looking in your dictionary, Poor thing???
You are the most confused to date but it is not in the least surprising.
Just so you know, crucifiction is assured for your father from the beginning. He is the father of lies. You believe all that he tells you and you are instructed to "FOOL" many, even the very elect. You are a contradiction without question. Your powers come from THE adversary, that is why you are confused. You are not an effective tool. Tell your dad he's gonna have to do one better.Allowing murder that could easily be stopped by a single word is same as doing it. And do not forget the millions killed by natural disasters.
Assured? He was crucified 2000 years before.Strange
I guess your father dies everyday. He definitely will die in THIS forum.
More???Yes Jesus dies everyday, by the lies perpetuated by people like you in his name.
Now I know your confusion is deliberate. Jesus died one time, now lives, and is alive forever. Your father is lying to you.
He is the one who actually dies daily.
All day everyday. He IS death. Go back from whence you came! Or stay. I am here until further instruction.Let's see, answer the following questions with yes or no.
1. Does your god love humans?
2. Does God condone slavery?
3. Do you have kids?
4. Do you love them?
5. If you love them, will you sell them or kill them for doing things you do not like?
6. If you do not have kids, do you suppose your parents will do these to you?
If god loves humans how can he condone slavery or kill humans(the flood)?
If he does not loves, why Jesus came?
Answer precisely and briefly then we will know who is confused.
Letting down is same as killing, and that way you and your lot are killing Jesus every day.You want only a yes or no? I know your reasons but, not so cut and dry.
Yes, God loves us all and wants none if us to die (though it just seems as if you've decided to die beforehand)
He is a father. He is a good father. As any good father, he has rules for his children. If the rules are not followed... A good father disciplines. If the son accepts his father's correction, he is rewarded with the benefit of having a father who is pleased. On the other hand, if the son refuses to be corrected... usually, there are ugly consequences. Yes???
God is merciful far beyond what any man can do. But if you refuse his correction, and you "thumb your nose"... consequences. Yes??? Following Christ is easy. And it's fun
As for your sheer refusal to accept my previous explanation regarding slavery, I will tell you yet again. God is all-powerful and all-knowing. He can do anything.
Did you ever seek out the definition of condone???
You stole my line God is SO loving that he produced Jesus and made him the head. You know Jesus WELL right??? He lives forevermore you will NEVER be able to kill him. He killed you long ago. And he kills you everyday. You should switch sides. He forgives your kind too. Less'n you been blaspheming the wrong stuff.
Here, you are resisted. And quite frankly, defeated.Following Christ is NOT easy. One is continuously assaulted from the devil. The only thing that keeps me going is a love for Christ.
Nor is it fun to follow Christ. It's a hard road.Surely it is, considering the fact that he gave contradictory messages.
Not a letter from the law will be changed and conveniently forgetting it when it suited him.
And if Jesus and the OT God are the same there are more contradictions.Jesus never forgot the law, and above all He did not forget the prophecies. A lot of people have attempted to make out like He did, but that's because they never took the time to really understand the Law, the Prophecies, or the purpose of them.
When the law is not much different from the laws of other tribe of the time, when the prophesies are no different from that of Nostradamus, and all we have is copies of copies and translations of translations, and when the meaning can be altered to fit any new findings, and when there are people who believe grass is blue if said earnestly, what value that book got?
No kool-aid here.
But the knowledge of God is available to all. Confusion is a chosen state. The spirit of the Lord is the perfect translator. Ask him what you will. He is everywhere! He's like oxygen. You can't see him, but he is needed for successful brain/heart function. Yet you are literally FEASTING on the kool-aid. A mind is a terrible thing...as it has tricked you into thinking that you are actually reasonable. Laughable? Yes, but very sad. The twilight zone is everyday life, with this stubborn and deceptive psychotic delusion.
Oh, but watch this...
I kind of feel the exact same way about you. The only difference is, I am sure about my life. I am sure of my God. I am sure of my path. And you???
See, it is highly "reasonable" that you would come to your conclusions about me. If I were unsure about everything, I would hate some ol stinky lady "bragging" about her assurities on a daily basis; and this so-called assurity makes her to comfortably smile at me while I CONTINUOUSLY struggle with MYself. Yes. But I have seen it many times. People lie to their very own selves. I know what I am speaking about. I comfortably "argue" with the same crew and watch them struggle with contradictory statements, while at the same time my father keeps my story straight.
Keep learning. But after you have exhausted from your search, and you realize you still are missing quite a bit of info, come talk to me.
Ujusscantstayaway. Din we say good-bye? You said lets talk about something else next time? Am I mistaken? Either way, it's good to hear from you.
If that were strictly true, then you might got something there. But since it's not...
And yes, misery loves company.
The mindset is "I don't hear you and will try to ensure no one else does."
You haven't completed that verse:
"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
In other words, all the prophets said about Jesus will never pass until He came to fulfill those prophecies. Fulfill is pleroo in Greek and that means also to complete.
He did not come to negate all of the Old Testament. He came to correct the wrong perception of God based on the corruption of these Jewish laws. I truly believe that almost all of God's laws were omitted in the Old Testament because of the corruption.
Laws that reflect what God would want does not seem to appear in the Old Testament mainly:
Galatians 3:21
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
This one is particularly interesting:
Hebrews 7:18–19
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of la better hope, through which we draw near to God.
It appears to indicate corruption and far from a representation of God.
Who knows who much of the Old Testament was further corrupted when the Jews were captured by the Babylonians in 597BC?
So it's important to fully investigate what these passages like the one discussed about what Jesus said really means." I truly believe that almost all of God's
laws were omitted in the Old Testament because of the
corruption."
And I truly believe that all of God's
laws were omitted in the bible because of
corruption, so?The point I'm trying to make is don't jump to conclusions because of your initial impression you have reading the scripture. One needs to investigate the context.
If the bible is corrupted, even if part of it, what is the point in searching for context? And even if it's only a sentence is corrupted, how do we know the one we read is genuine? Then who determine what is genuine, there are a thousand sects who just say opposite things, but still claim authority from god? So bible is useless, a story set out to satisfy a barbaric tribe.
Oh, so if you hear a history story and some of it is corrupt does it mean it's all untrue? It is imperative to have a relationship with the Holy Spirit to discern what is true or not. Once you know the nature of the Holy Spirit, you'd know what He'd do and what He wouldn't do. Without this relationship, the actuality of the gospels cannot be discerned.
As for thousands of sects, you are right. It seems nobody knows what they are talking about. That is why I debate with other Christians to see how strong their case is. If they cannot defend the Scriptures, there is a problem. For example, what Christian can defend the Old Testament and it's horror? It is in direct contradiction to what Jesus was about.
The Christian Church is corrupt. It on the whole makes no effort to change things that clearly aren't true. I bristle when the Church selects certain passages from the OT to include in a church service and say it is the inspired word of God then ignore the fact that Moses was a serpent worshipper, for example. Isn't the Bible the infallible word of God?
So that's a fail of note.If some of history is untrue, it means we need more research.
All the sects and Christians you talk about, say they are guided by spirit or god himself.
And how do you know it is the spirit that is guiding and not the adversary?I'll tell you this much, history books are more corrupt than anything there is in the New Testament. Those who write history write it from the perspective they want you to believe.
How does one know if one is being guided by the Spirit? Is what they say in harmony with what Jesus preached?
Yes, Satan has guided many Christians to believe what he wants them to believe. He is the master of confusion and that is why there are so many sects. Christians who contradict Jesus are being led by Satan. After all, corruption in Christianity has done a magnificent job in putting many people off.You said bible is corrupted and bible is the only way to know Jesus. So how do I know what Jesus preached?
In the NT, I have no reason to believe Jesus did not preach what was written in the Bible as it mirrors my relationship with God.
The Bible tells us about Jesus' ministry but it is just words unless one has a person relationship with Jesus. Then you will know what Jesus preached and what He didn't although what I read about Jesus in the NT is a great reflection of who He is. Some don't think so because they don't understand the context.
There is no doubt that the OT is hugely corrupted. It is influenced by paganism and the occult. I think most of it is lies. For example, Moses allegedly had a tantrum because the Israelites wouldn't stop worshiping pagan gods then he goes makes a brass serpent for them to worship.
I don't believe Moses as depicted in the OT had a relationship with God. I believe there was a Moses-type figure but evil people manipulated the stories.Moses did NOT enter into the "promised" land as a result of his disobedience. He was allowed to see, but he was not allowed to enter. God's plan went forth without him.
Why would God promise a land to the Jews that was already occupied? Jesus said His kingdom is not of this earth.
It's undeniable that the claim of the promised land has caused unspeakable blood-shed even to this day.Easy... God had delivered a bunch of people from slavery. He had them to travel the wilderness as a way to prepare their character and faith. He promised them a land that was plentiful. The land was inhabited, but not by HIS children. He took from the inhabitants and gave to HIS children. He does that today too.
I HATE that it upsets you.Oh, so if they weren't Jews they weren't important? He didn't mind seeing the gentiles suffer? It's strange because Jesus mingled with the gentiles and had mercy and compassion on them and commended their faith in examples from the Bible.
I don't know what you mean by He does it today, too. Explain, please?I meant that the Lord will take from the rich and/or wicked and give to the poor and/or his children.
His people were the Jews then, but they did not believe him. He "adopts" all who want him. Not just the Jews.
FYI, the Jews suffered a LOT too. I mean they suffered in slavery for a long time before anybody came to their rescue.Would you like to be chucked out of your home just because someone said God gave it to them?
You said bible is corrupted and bible is the only way to know Jesus. So how do I know what Jesus preached?
You know , bro . . . you know, sis. You know.
I'm talking about what you know. If you play headgames with me, you will lose. Give it up.
She did NOT say that the bible is corrupted. But you knew that already.
You cannot cloud the issue enough. This "battle" has already been won. We just collectin' sheep. You don't hear YOUR shepherd; why you followin this flock???I did say it was corrupted.
Look at Jeremiah 8:8:
New International Version (©1984)
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?
Everything is corrupted in life. Look at the Vatican. However, corruption can never part us from God who gives us the gift of discernment. His truth will be revealed to those who love Him.Forgive me, I did not intend to mistake that clause. I actually missed it.
Jeremiah appeared to be speaking to a certain sinful group. One of those groups of the scribes that Jesus came to correct. He says, "how can YOU say" and then he quoted them. He said YOUR scribes.
God has written word, not one jot nor tittle will pass, Jesus said. He's the king, he knows. I believe that God was able to preserve that which he wanted his children to know. He is no thief. He did not come to confuse you. He is not the author of confusion. Someone else "writes" that. we must be strong when we read the word of God. We must be open. We must be wise, with wisdom that only comes from God. It is not all pretty. But true.
From filth, to word, to more filth to faith, grace, and finally, no more filth in Jesus.
Yes, we will lead them back to God with his words. His sheep will follow. All others are not of the fold. We are admonished to plant the seed. God knows which ones to cultivate. We cannot do ot for them. Only plant.
easy...Jesus planted the seed when He was on earth. I was just thinking of the rich man story. He could never make people believe in Him but they could certainly think about it.
I like to state my case and like to think people who think about what I say first before dismissing it outright. We need to listen to each other carefully. I like learning from others.I think it is dangerous to learn from others. The bible says, "godly" counsel.
When you entertain other spirits, they may start making sense. Ask Solomon. You have to "resist" the devil for him to flee. If you make him panny-cakes and coffee, he stays a while... But he will not be the one altered. He is killing, stealing, and destroying all over the place. When he approached Jesus, he received a word of scripture. Corrupted scripture??? Ha!!! It worked we must be armed with the word of the Lord. Jesus showed us that first!
The battle is not with bodies. But spirits. They YIELD to the word of the Lord!
I would never hang-glide, I just don't understand nor trust that equipment. It is nowhere near 100% effective!
The word of the Lord is valid. He did show us ERRORS in thought/judgment of the people often. Get it straight.
His "sheep" know his voice. And will follow no other.
I agree with you but do you really think God wants sheep? If he wanted sheep why are we not sheep? Well some of are, but you know what I mean.
Read all about it!!! I am positive you have it lying around somewhere?
Oh I know that's what he bible says, but that is just a book used to keep people in line. It's still working for some.
I was asking you to think for yourself. Does it make sense?The Bible is more than a book to keep people in line. It is a collection of many different books. "Song of Solomon" is down right sultry.
The Bible is an accurate history of human nature.Wikipedia:
The branches of contemporary science associated with the study of human nature include anthropology, sociology, sociobiology, and psychology, particularly evolutionary psychology, and developmental psychology.
Where does it say the bible?Wikipedia?
Try again, only smart rats get cheese, today.Nope, I've done my search now it's you turn. Show me why the Bible is an accurate history of human nature?
Have you ever read the whole book? Your question is naive.
Is it accurate history or human nature that you don't understand? It is an accurate documentation of how the gullible were mislead a few thousand years ago.
Let me give you an example of the historic account of human nature.
We all know the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. But few know the story of the Levite and his concubine in Judges 19 - 20. It is an excellent read for anyone. If you are discussing "Bible", you should know that the center of every town was a designated safe haven for visitors to camp for the night. It wasn't safe in this town. The men behaved just like the ones in Sodom. How soon they forget.
If you read to the end of the story, you may wonder what all of the bloodshed and destruction was all about. Hint: it had a lot to do with the way the men regarded women (including the Levite and the young lady's father).
Don't reply until you have read what I have presented. Remember, you asked.
Come on, you ought to know us being sheep in a Christian sense is not literal. Jesus was not literally a good shepherd. A sheep has complete faith in the shepherd. That is how we ought to have faith in God.
I do completely understand. I was not speaking in the literal sense.
According to my Grandad - he was a farmer - sheep are the second stupidest animals on the planet after chickens. Weird how some of these religionists think that sheep have human feelings like "trust."
Sheep are stupid. But they know who will protect them. Get two shepherds together for an hour, let their flocks mingle hopelessly, and all they have to do is call and the sheep separate to follow their shepherd. The 1st Century Israelites would have understood this.
How do you know what sheep know and think? And it takes more than that to cull sheep from the herd - sorry.
Well, since I do want to actually know what I'm talking about, I tried to google whether sheep follow their masters voice. I tried it under "do sheep really follow their shepherd" (which you said is not true) and under "sheep behavior." Unsurprisingly, the first one yielded a lot of religious entries. The second one yielded a lot of entries from colleges and animal husbandry associations. I ignored the former and concentrated on the latter, and they all basically say that sheep are gregarious, they have a strong instinct to follow the leader (meaning the first sheep that moves has everyone else chasing it) and they are intelligent creatures (rating just below pigs and roughly on a par with cows) that can learn the faces of other sheep and humans and remember them for years. Guess we were both wrong about sheep being stupid. BUT, not one article either confirmed or denied the anecdote that I've heard that sheep really do follow the particular voice of their particular shepherd. And all I have from you is an anecdote. So I'm not sure which is right.
The Wikipedia entry is the most complete. I've seen other articles that are basically Wikipedia lite with more pictures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheephttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepherd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herding_dog
http://www.howtodothings.com/pets-animals/herd-sheep
You have "heard" this? Let me guess - the same place you heard there is contemporary evidence of Jesus?
I have watched hundreds of shepherds work. No following a voice - sorry. Yes - they follow the primary sheep. Not a voice.Why do you always include a personal attack? Wouldn't simply saying that you had watched hundreds of flocks and never witnessed an occasion of sheep following a human voice been enough?
No personal attack involved. I simply doubt that you have "heard " this. The same as I doubt the other things you claim to have "heard."
Sheep get herded. Where have you heard they follow a voice?From pastors trying to explain Scripture. Which is why I went to Google. And Google didn't have an answer one way or the other.
Saying things like may not count as a personal attack, but it is a little condescending at best.
The fact that she thinks I was being literal is not bad enough. She also thinks that humans should trust God as a sheep trusts the shepherd.
Where does that whole blind faith get the sheep?
Sheared and on the dinner table.Right! Sheep KNOW nothing else. Right? They follow one voice without question. Right? We are likened to sheep, we have one "Shepherd". You though, if likened to a set of sheep, would be scattered. Jesus, gathers his sheep. Only his flock, hear his voice and follow. Get it??? Probably not, but that is ok. If you follow Jesus, you are sure to follow God.
Right - that is why there is 40,000 different cults and we have had 2,000 years of wars between cults. Only his flock hear his voice and follow? Dear me - how divisive you are.
You guys know nothing about sheep. The sheep don't follow the shepherd at all.LAWL
Seriously - if you don't believe me - go look it up. The shepherd herds the sheep. Hence the name - "Sheepherder."
Dear me. Have you read any books at all?From what I was taught from books and other people is that back then, herders had really close relationships with the sheep and actually devoted life to taking care of them. They knew that he would lead them to good places for food and keep them from harm. They followed him. Maybe now, sheep just do what they want, but that would not surprise me.
Nonsense. They herded the sheep in the same way they herd them today. If you think about it, it is a rather apt simile. Herders still have a close relationship with the sheep - until they slaughter them. Herders don't lead them, they herd them. I live in sheep herding country - it has been done this way for ages.
If you don't believe me that sheep are herded and do not follow the shepherd - go ahead and look it up.Not interested. I know what Jesus meant. I don't have to "check his story". I trust him to lead me as a person then.
Not interested? OK then. Don't understand what Jesus said.
Twist, twist, twist.
it is your only weapon.
I already understood my Jesus. He said that his sheep know his voice. And your voice sounds different.Truth is my weapon. Sheep do not follow a voice, they are herded. Look it up - no need to change what was said to suit.
Have you never seen sheep being manipulated to go where the shepherd wants them to go?
I don't understand that definition. What does herd mean?
Herd - flock together for safety. The Shepherd threatens them in order to persuade them to go where he wants. What don't you understand? Have you never seen sheep being herded? If you had - you would know what I am talking about.
Flock together for safety seems like an ample enough definition. It's "wolves" out there!
Yeah - and the shepherd acts like a wolf to get them to go where he wants. Like I said - an apt simile.
You have only seen modern sheep and their herders. You don't know either. Point is, I know Jesus was NOT saying, "i act like a wolf to trick my sheep into following."
he is described as the "good" shepherd. No wonder...LAWL - and how does the "good" shepherd herd his sheep? And what happens to the sheep?.........
But - interesting that you know about stuff that you have not seen. Did god tell you into your head that it used to be different?
Oh come on, why do you think we have dogs like boarder collies, german shepherds and and Australian shepherds?
So we don't to chase them down.
Everyone in our culture is being herded. You can't walk in a straight line for any distance in the direction of your choice. You have to stay on the roads or off of property. We live in an abominable environment of concrete steel and glass, instead of the natural world that our soul desires.
We have lost connection with this reality. Twitter? "Tweets"? They should call them "Squeaks". That's what lemmings do.
I don't want to think like you. You are spiritually constipated, and in bondage to a lie. You pound the same dumb drum over and over. The message I hear, "Misery loves company. Come and embrace the bleak."It's called reality. The state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or might be imagined.
Sure to some reality sucks, but would you rather dream your life away?You are dreaming if you think this reality will last. It is unsustainable.
This is the reality humans have endured for the last 200,000 years. By it's very definition there is only one reality. We are constantly learning about reality, sub-atomic particles, the expansion of the universe are part of reality. Why is it not sustainable and how can there be another reality?
You are way off the point. The point is that in this reality, you are being herded. Who is your shepherd?
I'm not off point, you refer to THIS reality as if there is more then one reality. There is only one reality, you can't pick another. I have no shepherd. You didn't answer the question as to how or why reality is not sustainable? Reality is sustainable, it may be that at some point humans are no longer around, but that will be reality.
You are off point. I was addressing the issue of being herded. Read the thread and get back to me with a pertinent response.
Aren't you afraid your kids will turn into sheep?
Nonsense. I can see the mountains from where I am sitting and I can go cross country to them. I don't live in an abominable environment. I am watching the geese fly over at the moment
Your desperate need to be better than me by claiming some knowledge that I don't have is the reason your religion causes so many conflicts. I don't embrace bleak - I embrace reality.
Spiritually constipated? You are as spiritual as a sheep. You don't even understand what the term means. You are the one that seems to have lost connection. I don't want to think like you. Desperately unhappy and hoping for something better after death.
The message is - reality is wonderful - enjoy it and embrace it. Stop sticking your religion and nonsensical threats of "believe or die" to others and live your life instead of hoping for a reward in heaven for putting up with crap. There is no need to be in servitude to an imaginary being.
You hear what you want to hear.
To bad the sheep are not taught to question and use critical thinking skill so they won't end up sheared and on the dinner table.
You need to wake up. Some of history is just plain manipulated and lies. How's this for an example? Obama didn't win the elections nor did Romney. Obama was selected not elected:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqM78vNw … re=g-all-c
I've already answered your other questions.What has Obama got to do with our discussion?
You said 1) Bible is corrupted by Satan.
2) Most Christians are guided by satan
3) Any person may be guided by satan.
4) You know a person is guided by Holy spirit if he confirms to the bible.
So my question is, if satan is powerful and intelligent enough to corrupt the bible and guide people, is he foolish enough to guide the person to the part that is NOT corrupted by him? He will guide the person to that part that is corrupted and there will be consistency.
Second which bible?
So the question, how one knows one is guided by holy Spirit or satan is still unanswered by you.riddle666: What has Obama got to do with our discussion?
You said if some history is corrupted, then more research has to be done. It is going to go down in history that Obama won the election fair and square but it's a fraud.
riddle666You said 1) Bible is corrupted by Satan.
The OT was. The numbers in the New Testament are.
riddle666: 2) Most Christians are guided by satan
If one believes the Bible is the infallible word of God, then they are being duped by Satan. It doesn't matter what the Bible says, if one asks the Holy Spirit for the truth then they will get it. That is the promise Jesus made. Our duty is to humble ourselves to accept the truth no matter how unpalatable it may be. I know Satan loves to pretend he is God. I get confused sometimes but I always know the truth in the end because God reveals it.
riddle666 3) Any person may be guided by satan.
Yes, we are all sinners.
riddle666 4) You know a person is guided by Holy spirit if he confirms to the bible.
No, knowing the Holy Spirit in a personal relationship with Him is the only way to confirm what Jesus is said to have preached in the Bible.
riddle666So my question is, if satan is powerful and intelligent enough to corrupt the bible and guide people, is he foolish enough to guide the person to the part that is NOT corrupted by him? He will guide the person to that part that is corrupted and there will be consistency.
Satan doesn't guide to the non-corrupted parts. Far from it. The power of the Holy Spirits will confirm the truth of the Bible. He is more powerful than the devil. In my honest opinion, I believe there is corruption when it comes to numbers. For example, did Jesus fast in the wilderness for 40 days? No. The writers were trying to draw a parallel between these stories:
For 40 days the Flood lasted, for 40 days the spies searched the promised land, for 40 days Goliath challenged Israel, 40 days of Ezekiel's penitence, the Jews were 40 years in the Wilderness, 40 days of waiting before embalming the dead, Genesis 1. 3; for 40 days the woman's purification lasted after childbirth; for 40 days Moses fasted twice; for 40 days Elijah fasted, and for 40 days Jesus fasted in the Wilderness, and 40 days elapsed between the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus. Moses was 40 years in Egypt, 40 in Midian, and 40 in the Wilderness. The Israelites were 40 years among the Philistines.
Perhaps the original writers didn't include for how long He fasted in the wilderness. Perhaps that was a later corruption. I'll explain how I came to have this opinion:
"Numbers are a key to the ancient views of cosmogony ... spiritually as well as physically ... to the evolution of the present human race; all systems of religious mysticism are based upon numerals.”
W. Wynn Westcott, “The Occult Power of Numbers” (15)
The numbers 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 33 and all multiples of them have esoteric meaning to the Brotherhood and are used in a variety of ways.
Jesus was supposed to have died at age 33 and started his ministry at age thirty:
There are multiple references to 33 in the bible: 33 days of purification (Leviticus 12:4), 33 sons and daughters of Israel (Genesis 46:15), and 3300 officers of King Solomon (1 Kings 5:16). King David reigned in Jerusalem for 33 years (1 Kings 2:11). The Star of David is two triangles, meaning two 3s – 33. There are exactly 33 titles in the Old Testament for the antichrist and 13 in the New Testament. Most importantly, Jesus was baptized at age 30, began his 3 year ministry, then died and was resurrected at age 33 (Luke 3:23).
Also see (1 Chronicles 3:4, and 1 Chronicles 29:27).
“The sun enters at the 30th degree but is not totally clear until the 33rd degree, as it is of a certain size also. This is why they said in the Bible that the ministry of Christ begins at 30 and finishes at 33. This reference would have been unmistakable to anyone aware of the secrets of astrology. The number is connected to the initiation of the ‘Sun’ of god not ‘Son,’ passing through the zodiac. This is why the Freemasonic lodges also utilize the number.”
–Michael Tsarion, “Astrotheology and Sidereal Mythology”
It is so obvious to me that occultists assigned the age of Jesus ministry and death. This is the corruption. Well, since the Vatican is steeped in the occult, I'm not surprised.
The number 40 in the occult means trial as in Jesus being tempted in the wilderness. I believe the numbers weren't in the original gospels. They were added later by those with occult knowledge.
Satan further tries to corrupt by lying about how Jesus is related to sun gods.
riddle666:Second which bible?
As in what version? I'm not well acquainted with the different versions. I refer to the NIV.
riddle666So the question, how one knows one is guided by holy Spirit or satan is still unanswered by you.
Hopefully it is now.Unfortunately you have made me more confused, I''ll get back to you soon, urgent business now.
So let me get it correctly before responding. You say,
1. You have a personal relationship with Holy Spirit.
2. Most Christians who claim they have a special relationship Spirit is actually misguided by satan.
3. The OT and the numbers(alone) in the NT are corrupted by satan. Rest of NT are uncorrupted.
4. Because of your relationship with the said spirit, you can decide which part of NT is corrupted and which part is not.
Am I right?
"As in what version? I'm not well acquainted with the different versions. I refer to the NIV.'
My question was as there are so many translations and versions of bible, which version is the least corrupted?1.) Correct
2.) No, I didn't say that. Haven't we all been misguided and sinned? However, asking God for the truth will lead you to the conclusion that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Actually logic comes into play, too.
3.) Most of the OT is corrupted and the assignment of numbers is an occult practice which clearly is not the will of God.
4.) There's a difference between corruption and things that I feel are wrong. Now I'm not the expert on the Bible but if one knows Jesus like I do, one can see if the gospels have reflected Him well or not. Anyone who has a relationship with the Holy Spirit can do this but often they want to live in denial when it comes to any sort of corruption in the Bible. When they do this, they block out God's voice telling them the truth. I think because it's frightening to them. They somehow feel that God isn't powerful enough to preserve the Bible, in my opinion, forgetting that the entire world is corrupted. There is room for me to grow and the only way I learn is by discussing the Bible. Someone can teach me to consider something I never thought of before. I think I can say when reading about Jesus, "Did He really say that? Does it reconcile with what I know about Him?" First I have to learn about the context of what Jesus said. Often we read the scriptures and think He means something different than what we think He does. That's because of translation issues, etc.
5.) As I said, I do not know the other versions well. Would you like to pick out a scripture you have contention from the other versions?2.) "No, I didn't say that. Haven't we all been misguided and sinned? However, asking God for the truth will lead you to the conclusion that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Actually logic comes into play, too."
You said most christians sects are led by satan. As most christians follow some or other sect it follows that they are corrupted. But if they are not, most christians differ from others, that is why there are different sects. All cannot be correct at the same time.
3.)" Most of the OT is corrupted and the assignment of numbers is an occult practice which clearly is not the will of God."
OT agreed. My question was, is only the numbers in NT that is corrupted or something more?
4.) "They somehow feel that God isn't powerful enough to preserve the Bible,"
There I find some difficulty. You said the OT and Numbers in NT are corrupted. Now you say god is powerful enough to preserve the bible. So what is it?
5.) "As I said, I do not know the other versions well. Would you like to pick out a scripture you have contention from the other versions?"
Here I think, I am not clarifying myself. You know the original bible(NT) was in greek, but that was not the language of jesus. Then it was translated to latin and then english. There are different translations available and each differ. There are different gospels that were not included in the bible. The present four are included by Constantine and his cahoots. Even the present one underwent revisions and additions. (for eg: The gospel by mark was shorter in original greek). So which is the correct one? The old, the new? The KJV, or the Darby Bible Translation?2.) "No, I didn't say that. Haven't we all been misguided and sinned? However, asking God for the truth will lead you to the conclusion that the Bible is not the infallible word of God. Actually logic comes into play, too."
Riddle666: You said most christians sects are led by satan. As most christians follow some or other sect it follows that they are corrupted. But if they are not, most christians differ from others, that is why there are different sects. All cannot be correct at the same time.
No, wait a second. There are very good people out there that love God who believe that the Bible is the infallible word of God. There are Catholics who love God but accept the paganism in Catholicism. However, they aren't corrupt. Corrupt means morally dishonest. We have all been duped yet that doesn't make us morally dishonest.
Your second sentence is more accurate. It's true, not all of us can be correct.
3.)" Most of the OT is corrupted and the assignment of numbers is an occult practice which clearly is not the will of God."
OT agreed. My question was, is only the numbers in NT that is corrupted or something more?
I don't know. Let's discuss it. If you think there is something in the NT that you suspect as being corrupt, bring it to my attention.
4.) "They somehow feel that God isn't powerful enough to preserve the Bible,"
There I find some difficulty. You said the OT and Numbers in NT are corrupted. Now you say god is powerful enough to preserve the bible. So what is it?
I'm saying other Christians feel that if they don't believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, then that must mean He doesn't have the power to preserve the Bible. Since God gave us free will, the scriptures rely on inspiration from the Holy Spirit. Except for John of Patmos (he wrote down Revelation in a trance), nobody else went into a trance and wrote things down when composing the Gospels. Therefore the gospels were inspired by those who loved Jesus and that is what has preserved the integrity of the NT. It appears as if the person/s who added in the numbers in the NT must have had some knowledge of the Kabbalah as it includes a practice of numerology. The OT, on the other hand, were inspired by corrupt people some even demonic.
5.) "As I said, I do not know the other versions well. Would you like to pick out a scripture you have contention from the other versions?"
Here I think, I am not clarifying myself. You know the original bible(NT) was in greek, but that was not the language of jesus. Then it was translated to latin and then english. There are different translations available and each differ. There are different gospels that were not included in the bible. The present four are included by Constantine and his cahoots. Even the present one underwent revisions and additions. (for eg: The gospel by mark was shorter in original greek). So which is the correct one? The old, the new? The KJV, or the Darby Bible Translation?
I can't say unless I am familiar with the different content. However, the other gospels that were omitted, like the Gnostic gospels, were done for a reason. They were written in the 2nd century AD long after the eye-witnesses were dead. They were fakes.“ We have all been duped yet that doesn't make us morally dishonest.”
No, no you have mistaken me. I didn’t say they are deliberate. I meant they are mistaken, either knowingly or unknowingly. So what the majority believ, is wrong?
“ The OT, on the other hand, were inspired by corrupt people some even demonic.”
OK, in NT the author unwittingly exaggerated some number4s, rest are all correct. There is no need to look into OT, but only NT, am I right?
"As I said, I do not know the other versions well. Would you like to pick out a scripture you have contention from the other versions?"
“I can't say unless I am familiar with the different content. However, the other gospels that were omitted, like the Gnostic gospels, were done for a reason. They were written in the 2nd century AD long after the eye-witnesses were dead. They were fakes.”
But none of the gospels are eyewitness accounts. So why are they all not fake?
What about the final chapters of mark that was later added?Claire: "We have all been duped yet that doesn't make us morally dishonest.”
riddle666: No, no you have mistaken me. I didn’t say they are deliberate. I meant they are mistaken, either knowingly or unknowingly. So what the majority believ, is wrong?
In my humble opinion, yes! Not about everything but about a lot of things.
Claire: “ The OT, on the other hand, were inspired by corrupt people some even demonic.”
riddle666: OK, in NT the author unwittingly exaggerated some number4s, rest are all correct. There is no need to look into OT, but only NT, am I right?
Not all of the OT is wrong. We can't discard all of the OT. However, I think it ought to be obvious to a Christian what isn't from God especially if they do their homework. I do not believe those numbers in the NT were added unwittingly. Someone knew their numerology. For example, the 33rd degree is the highest level in Freemasonry. It is no coincidence that Jesus was said to have died at age 33 when His mission was complete.
Did you know that there is something called, "The Knight of the Brazen Serpent" (The Twenty-fifth Degree of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite) ? Well, Christians ought to make the connection between that and Moses. Remember that if Moses made a serpent of brass, those bitten by the snake would not die?
He mad brass serpents for the Israelis to worship:
2 Kings 18:1-4
King James Version (KJV)
18 Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.
2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Abi, the daughter of Zachariah.
3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the Lord, according to all that David his father did.
4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
"Man had fallen, but not by the tempting of the serpent. For with the Phoenicians, the serpent was deemed to partake of the Divine Nature, and was sacred, as he was in Egypt. He was deemed to be immortal, unless slain by violence, becoming young again in his old age, by entering into and consuming himself. Hence the Serpent in a circle, holding his tail in his mouth, was an emblem of eternity. With the head of a hawk he was of a Divine Nature, and a symbol of the sun. Hence one Sect of the Gnostics took him for their good genius, and hence the brazen serpent reared by Moses in the Desert, on which the Israelites looked and lived." - Pike, M&D, p. 278 - lower. (Lecture of the 18th Degree.)
Let me remind you that Moses was reared in an Egyptian household. Notice the cobra on Tutankhamen's death mask.
"Certainly the concept of the Serpent of Brass in the Wilderness is a potent symbol, used particularly in the New Testament in reference to Christ Jesus. And, in a greater context, utilized during the early Messianic movement, to refer to He who was to Come.. This was used during the Dosithean movement particularly, for as Moses raised up the Serpent in the Desert, so was Dositheos, the Samaritan Messiah."
Now, I believe that Jesus did not say He would be risen like the serpent was by Moses. This is clearly an occult addition. Why? The serpent is supposed to represent eternal life and the occultist is trying to link that to Jesus promising us eternal life. But what do we know about the serpent? He is the devil. Does it represent the counterfeit Christ, the Anti-Christ, who will survive a fatal wound?
Revelation 20:2
New International Version (©1984)
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
So it ought to be obvious that Moses in the Bible was a devil-worshipper.
I highly suspect this is the reason why numbskull Christians handle snakes and think they won't be harmed.
Claire: "As I said, I do not know the other versions well. Would you like to pick out a scripture you have contention from the other versions?"
“I can't say unless I am familiar with the different content. However, the other gospels that were omitted, like the Gnostic gospels, were done for a reason. They were written in the 2nd century AD long after the eye-witnesses were dead. They were fakes.”
riddle666: But none of the gospels are eyewitness accounts. So why are they all not fake?
Who said the writers didn't know any of the eye-witnesses? Who's to say that the gospels were written down shortly after Jesus' death that haven't survived? We already have 5000 NT manuscripts today. And oral tradition was very important.
Here's something to consider:
As we’ve said, form criticism has tended to embrace the view that, in all likelihood, neither Jesus nor anyone in his inner circle was literate. They thus assumed that writing played no regulative role in the oral transmission of early material about Jesus, which made it easier for this material to be significantly and quickly altered as it was passed along. However, while no one disputes that first century Jewish culture was an orally dominated culture, there is increasing evidence that reading and writing was not as rare in the ancient world in general, and in ancient Palestine in particular, as was once generally thought.
For example, whereas some scholars have argued that only the wealthy in the ancient world could have received the education needed to become literate, we’ve now discovered clear evidence of writing among military personal, builders and even slaves! (1) So too, whereas it was commonly assumed in the past that writing materials were very rare and expensive in the ancient world, we now have evidence that certain kinds of writing materials were actually rather inexpensive and were utilized by significant segments of the middle and lower classes. (2) We’ve also discovered texts that were intended to inform the general public (for example, publicly posted notices), which of course presupposes some degree of literacy among the general populace. (3)
If the ancient world was in general more literate than previously thought, we have reason to believe ancient Jews would have been much more so. After all, as New Testament scholar John Meier notes,
“The very identity and continued existence of the people of Israel were tied to a corpus of written and regularly read works in a way that simply was not true of other peoples in the Mediterranean world of the first century. . . To be able to read and explain the Scriptures was a revered goal for religiously minded Jews. Hence literacy held a special importance for the Jewish community.” (4)
Thus, as Birger Gerhardsson argues, “the milieu in which Jesus and the original disciples ministered, and the milieu in which remembrances of Jesus’ life and teaching were passed on, was one that revered the written word and thus valued literacy.” (5)
In light of this, we have no reason to question the Gospels’ portrayal of Jesus as not only being able to read (e.g. Lk 4:16-30) but as impressing crowds with his learning (e.g. Jn 7:15). Nor do we have any reason to suppose that all of Jesus’ disciples were illiterate. At the very least, Matthew’s occupation as a tax collector would have required some level of literacy. It’s perhaps significant in this regard that an early second century church father named Papias — a man who seems to have been a direct disciple of the Apostle John — mentions that Matthew was the designated note-taker among the earliest disciples.
We thus conclude that, while the recollection of Jesus’ words and deeds would have been passed on primarily by word of mouth in the early church, it seems more likely than not that, to some extent at least, they also would have been recorded in writing. These written materials likely would have provided a check on how much the oral traditions about Jesus could have been altered over the first several decades of the new found Christian communities.
More:
http://reknew.org/2008/01/how-reliable- … raditions/
riddle666: What about the final chapters of mark that was later added?
How much different is the final chapter of Mark to the other gospels?Sorry I didn't reply for I didn't see your comment earlier and I was thinking that you didn't reply.
[riddle666: No, no you have mistaken me. I didn’t say they are deliberate. I meant they are mistaken, either knowingly or unknowingly. So what the majority believe is wrong?
In my humble opinion, yes! Not about everything but about a lot of things.
Claire: “ The OT, on the other hand, were inspired by corrupt people some even demonic.”
Claire: ” Not all of the OT is wrong. We can't discard all of the OT”]
Even is only part of OT is wrong we have to discard it for we do not know which is the divine inspired part. And most Christians who claim themselves be guided by spirit, still contradict each other.
[Claire: “I do not believe those numbers in the NT were added unwittingly. “ ]
My question is why in divine inspired man put numerology in NT? Why he didn’t do exactly as the ‘spirit inspired’. If the NT writer himself be mislead like this, what chance any person of the present age got?
[Claire: " “I can't say unless I am familiar with the different content. However, the other gospels that were omitted, like the Gnostic gospels, were done for a reason. They were written in the 2nd century AD long after the eye-witnesses were dead. They were fakes.”
riddle666: But none of the gospels are eyewitness accounts. So why are they all not fake?
Who said the writers didn't know any of the eye-witnesses? Who's to say that the gospels were written down shortly after Jesus' death that haven't survived? We already have 5000 NT manuscripts today. And oral tradition was very important.]
“Who said the writers didn't know any of the eye-witnesses?”
I was asking the same question to you. According to many scholars though the oldest surviving gospel of Thomas is from 2nd century it might have been first written in 50AD and though the copies is difficult to get today was not at all difficult then.
[riddle666: What about the final chapters of mark that was later added?
How much different is the final chapter of Mark to the other gospels?]
The Mark is the first gospel written, which stopped with death of Jesus. Why it stopped there? Why it things had to be added later by another author? And most agree that Luke and Mathew are re-writings or copies of Mark.
Regarding gospels, though most Christians think they were written by Jesus’s disciples, it was not. Only Mathew and John were even similar in name. Luke was the disciple of Paul, who also wrote Acts. (Mark is also speculated to be Pauline, I do not remember correctly.)
And the present gospels were selected by Constantine, not a good fellow either.
So if we agree that the OT for all practical purposes not to be taken into consideration( if we can take, which all parts to be taken?) and if we agree that except for the numbers rest of NT is divine inspired, then I’ll ask you the questions which I want clarification for(i.e. that which I think is misrepresentation or contradictions.)Claire: “ The OT, on the other hand, were inspired by corrupt people some even demonic.”
Claire: ” Not all of the OT is wrong. We can't discard all of the OT”]
Riddle666: Even is only part of OT is wrong we have to discard it for we do not know which is the divine inspired part. And most Christians who claim themselves be guided by spirit, still contradict each other.
No, come on. It's not that hard. If the OT contradicts Jesus, it is wrong for how can Jesus contradict God? I mean, it is said God wants to the Israelites to go to the war and then Jesus said those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Also, I have done some research where much of the material of the OT comes from. Do you want to know what the literal translation of the OT is?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MXLB6S … r_embedded
Genesis, etc, is not from God. It is from Sumerian pagan stories. I love to think and I crave to know all sides of the story and this is what I came across. I get annoyed that Christians ignore this because they are afraid it makes the Bible corrupt. Well, corruption happens. It really does. Look at the Christian Church today especially the Vatican.
[Claire: “I do not believe those numbers in the NT were added unwittingly. “ ]
My question is why in divine inspired man put numerology in NT? Why he didn’t do exactly as the ‘spirit inspired’. If the NT writer himself be mislead like this, what chance any person of the present age got?
This is my view. The gospels were written by God-inspired people. That is obvious to me. However, those numbers could have been added long after the fact.
Claire: " “I can't say unless I am familiar with the different content. However, the other gospels that were omitted, like the Gnostic gospels, were done for a reason. They were written in the 2nd century AD long after the eye-witnesses were dead. They were fakes.”
riddle666: But none of the gospels are eyewitness accounts. So why are they all not fake?
Claire: Who said the writers didn't know any of the eye-witnesses? Who's to say that the gospels were written down shortly after Jesus' death that haven't survived? We already have 5000 NT manuscripts today. And oral tradition was very important.
“Who said the writers didn't know any of the eye-witnesses?”
Riddle666:I was asking the same question to you. According to many scholars though the oldest surviving gospel of Thomas is from 2nd century it might have been first written in 50AD and though the copies is difficult to get today was not at all difficult then.
The manuscript was written in the 4th century AD as opposed to the gospels that were written in the first century AD. We also have 5000 manuscripts written in Greek of the NT and 24,970 copies copies of the NT altogether.
riddle666: What about the final chapters of mark that was later added?
Claire: How much different is the final chapter of Mark to the other gospels?
The Mark is the first gospel written, which stopped with death of Jesus. Why it stopped there? Why it things had to be added later by another author? And most agree that Luke and Mathew are re-writings or copies of Mark.
I have researched that and it is most likely that Mark 16:9-19 was missing. It was lost. Why? Because the story ends abruptly . The story is incomplete. Since eye-witnesses were alive at the time of the resurrection and because of oral tradition, it would not be hard to assume that if Mark was completed, it would have had the same ending as the others. And btw, it ended with the claim Jesus had resurrected and were the women were instructed to tell the others.
Regarding gospels, though most Christians think they were written by Jesus’s disciples, it was not. Only Mathew and John were even similar in name. Luke was the disciple of Paul, who also wrote Acts. (Mark is also speculated to be Pauline, I do not remember correctly.)
No, the Gospels were not written by Jesus' disciples.
And the present gospels were selected by Constantine, not a good fellow either.
I think they were selected because those are the gospels Christians were familiar with. The Gospel of Thomas has no historical basis whatsoever. They are just random quotes of what Jesus was supposed to have said. Quite frankly, it's just laughable to think the Gospel of Thomas is authentic.
The Apocalypse of Peter (81:4-24): "I saw him apparently being seized by them, And I said, 'What am I seeing, O Lord? Is it really you whom they take? And are you holding on to me? And are they hammering the feet and hands of another? Who is this one above the cross, who is glad and laughing?' The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw being glad and laughing above the cross is the Living Jesus. But he into whose hands and feet they were driving the nails is his fleshly part, which is substitute. They put to shame that which remained in his likeness. And look at him, and [look at] me!"
WTF? Laughing of the cross? It's clearly a mockery. Constantine wouldn't be able to convince Christians this was genuine.
So if we agree that the OT for all practical purposes not to be taken into consideration( if we can take, which all parts to be taken?) and if we agree that except for the numbers rest of NT is divine inspired, then I’ll ask you the questions which I want clarification for(i.e. that which I think is misrepresentation or contradictions.)
As I said, what parts we can believe of the OT written of God should be in unison with Jesus. Well, I can't find any. The prophecies I believe are correct and I'm sure there were prophets who wrote truly about God but the OT is corrupt and so the only yardstick we have is whether or not God in the OT complements Jesus.
I did mention there was one verse that I was not in agreement with (John 3:14) and I explained why that was a corruption. I never like that verse but I didn't just say, "Oh, well..." I researched it and came up with the occult connection. Christianity is not only about faith, although it is the bulk of it, it is also about logic and research.
If you should point out contradictions, I may learn that there are other parts which I would find suspect. The only way I know is by debating.“No, come on. It's not that hard. If the OT contradicts Jesus, it is wrong for how can Jesus contradict God? I mean, it is said God wants to the Israelites to go to the war and then Jesus said those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Also, I have done some research where much of the material of the OT comes from. Do you want to know what the literal translation of the OT is?”
So god didn’t ask israel to go to war? He didn’t allow jacob to cheat isaac? And sorry, I can’t use youtube(no audio in my comp).
God asks not to eat pig, while jesus say anything can be eaten, contradiction? If god didn’t say that wny the israel are not eating pig for centuaries, why god failed to correct them?
“This is my view. The gospels were written by God-inspired people. That is obvious to me. However, those numbers could have been added long after the fact.”
Why? Was god unable to prevent contamination?
“Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (John 14:27)
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
I have come to bring fire on the earth, (Luke 12:49)”
“Honour thy father and [thy] mother: (Matthew 19:19)
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother (Matthew 10:35)”
Are they not contradictions?
“The manuscript was written in the 4th century AD as opposed to the gospels that were written in the first century AD.”
Assigning a date to the Gospel of Thomas is very complex because it is difficult to know precisely to what a date is being assigned. Scholars have proposed a date as early as AD 40 or as late as AD 140, depending upon whether the Gospel of Thomas is identified with the original core of sayings, or with the author's published text, or with the Greek or Coptic texts, or with parallels in other literature.
There are not many copies available now of the other gopsels because christians destroyed it. Whoever kept that were deemed as heretics and even murdered them.
“WTF? Laughing of the cross? It's clearly a mockery. Constantine wouldn't be able to convince Christians this was genuine.”
Certainly not. There was a sect of christians whoi believed that it was not the actual jesus that died on cross. In fact, as it is now, there were no single sects of christians even then. And that is what Constantine sought to achieve, a unified chritsianity.
“The prophecies I believe are correct and I'm sure”
But there are no prophecies in OT regarding Jesus.
“Contradiction”
Honour thy father and [thy] mother: (Matthew 19:19)
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. (John 2:4)
Jesus’ prophecy in John 13:38 ("The cock shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times") is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the cock crowed after the first denial, not the third.
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
Was he the first man. Was the OT wring about that to?Claire:“No, come on. It's not that hard. If the OT contradicts Jesus, it is wrong for how can Jesus contradict God? I mean, it is said God wants to the Israelites to go to the war and then Jesus said those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Also, I have done some research where much of the material of the OT comes from. Do you want to know what the literal translation of the OT is?”
riddle666: So god didn’t ask israel to go to war? He didn’t allow jacob to cheat isaac? And sorry, I can’t use youtube(no audio in my comp).
No. How did God instruct Moses on the mountain? If I want someone's house, I can just say God told me their house is mine. Just make it up so to convince others you have a holy right to other people's property.
God asks not to eat pig, while jesus say anything can be eaten, contradiction? If god didn’t say that wny the israel are not eating pig for centuaries, why god failed to correct them?
What God? Those were Jewish laws and not from God. Jesus came to put these rubbish laws right. Say yes, God in the form of Jesus tried to correct them, but you know what it's like. People are stubborn.
Claire:“This is my view. The gospels were written by God-inspired people. That is obvious to me. However, those numbers could have been added long after the fact.”
riddle666: Why? Was god unable to prevent contamination?
Because people have free will? Why can't God prevent the world from being contaminated?
“Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. (John 14:27)
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
I have come to bring fire on the earth, (Luke 12:49)”
“Honour thy father and [thy] mother: (Matthew 19:19)
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother (Matthew 10:35)”
You need to put these verses into perspective. When He said He came to bring a sword, He meant that His truth would cause division. Many people hate the truth. Some members of the family will accept Jesus as their saviour and others won't. This is going to cause conflict. This ungodly world is going to oppose good and thus the world is divided. Jesus meant that the world isn't suddenly going to be peaceful where everyone agrees with one another and shares a common purpose.
Are they not contradictions? [/b]
Claire: “The manuscript was written in the 4th century AD as opposed to the gospels that were written in the first century AD.”
Assigning a date to the Gospel of Thomas is very complex because it is difficult to know precisely to what a date is being assigned. Scholars have proposed a date as early as AD 40 or as late as AD 140, depending upon whether the Gospel of Thomas is identified with the original core of sayings, or with the author's published text, or with the Greek or Coptic texts, or with parallels in other literature.
There are not many copies available now of the other gopsels because christians destroyed it. Whoever kept that were deemed as heretics and even murdered them.
I'm sure there were people out there in the form of Gnostics that attempted to spread lies about Christianity. Even so, no one had a right to murder them.
Claire: “WTF? Laughing of the cross? It's clearly a mockery. Constantine wouldn't be able to convince Christians this was genuine.”
Certainly not. There was a sect of christians whoi believed that it was not the actual jesus that died on cross. In fact, as it is now, there were no single sects of christians even then. And that is what Constantine sought to achieve, a unified chritsianity.
Okay, so the one sect of Christians believed Jesus was laughing on the cross an another who didn't believe Jesus didn't die on the cross. Problem is, that is not backed up historically.
“The prophecies I believe are correct and I'm sure”
But there are no prophecies in OT regarding Jesus.[i]
Huh?
Here's one:
Isaiah 53:4-6:
4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
“Contradiction”
[i] thy father and [thy] mother: (Matthew 19:19)
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. (John 2:4)
Jesus’ prophecy in John 13:38 ("The cock shall not crow, till thou [Peter] hast denied me three times") is false. Mark 14:66-68 shows the cock crowed after the first denial, not the third.
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." (Matthew 26:34; see also Luke 22:34; John 13:38)
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that today, even this night, before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." (Mark 14:30)
John, Matthew and Luke indicate that Peter denied Jesus six times because they were two separate occasions . The first three as recorded by John, Matthew and Luke, indicate that there was one rooster crow after three denials . The second occasion as in Mark says that two roosters crowed after three denials. It clears states that that there was one crow after the first denial and then the second crow crowed after the third denial.
Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times. (Mark 14:72)
From consulted website:
"I. First Set of Three
In John, Peter's three denials all start with a question (John 18:17; John 18:25; John 18:26), and it records Peter's denial as he responds to the questions (John 18:17; John 18:25; John 18:27). In Matthew and Luke Peter's denials are preceded by various accusatory statements. When these three gospels are compared, it becomes evident there is more to the story than just one simple accusation and one simple denial, even within Matthew, Luke, and John which record the first three denials and first rooster crow.
A. First Denial
In the first denial, in John the servant girl who kept the door said to Peter,
You are not also one of this Man's disciples, are you? (John 18:17)
Evidenced via Matthew, Peter's first denial also included a servant girl saying,
You also were with Jesus of Galilee. (Matthew 26:69)
And Luke records a servant girl saying,
This man was also with Him. (Luke 22:56)
Peter's response to the question was,
I am not. (John 18:17)
Peter's response to the accusation recorded in Matthew 26:69 was,
I do not know what you are saying. (Matthew 26:70)
Peter's response to the accusation recorded in Luke was,
Woman, I do not know Him. (Luke 22:57)
All of this is accounted by Matthew, Luke, and John as, not three denials, but the first denial.
B. Second Denial
John records a second question and says the question was asked while Peter "stood and warmed himself" (John 18:25). This time the question is asked from a "they" (i.e. those who were there).
You are not also one of His disciples, are you? (John 18:25)
Luke records,
another [male]2 saw him and said, "You also are of them." (Luke 22:58)
Matthew records an additional accusation, describes it being at the gateway, and coming from a girl (as opposed to the male of Luke 22:58).
And when he had gone out to the gateway, another girl saw him and said to those who were there, "This fellow also was with Jesus of Nazareth." (Matthew 26:71)
So, in this second denial these three gospels record a question by a group ("they") and two different accusations, one from a male, another from a female.
Peter's response to the question was,
I am not! (John 18:25)
Peter's response to the accusation from the man was,
Man, I am not! (Luke 22:58)
Peter's response to the accusation by the girl was,
I do not know the Man! (Matthew 26:72)
All of this is accounted by Matthew, Luke, and John as, not three more denials, but a second denial.
C. Third Denial
Finally, John records a third question from "One of the servants of the high priest, a relative of him whose ear Peter cut off."
Did I not see you in the garden with Him? (John 18:26)
Matthew says,
those who stood by came up and said to Peter, "Surely you also are one of them, for your speech betrays you." (Matthew 26:73)
Luke records someone "confidently affirmed,"
Surely this fellow also was with Him, for he is a Galilean. (Luke 22:59)
Now, no specific answer is given in John for Peter's response to the question, except that it is noted that Peter "denied again" (John 18:27).
In Matthew, to "those who stood by" Peter "began to curse and swear," saying,
I do not know the Man! (Matthew 26:74)
Luke records Peter's response to the one accusation as,
Man, I do not know what you are saying! (Luke 22:60)
All of them record a rooster crowed immediately. So, it is evident by this that it happened very fast. Luke adds, "while he was still speaking" (Luke 22:60).
So, we see in Matthew, Luke, and John three somewhat involved denials before a rooster sounds.3 In Mark it is not that way. There is a rooster crow right away.
Now as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the servant girls of the high priest came. And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked at him and said, "You also were with Jesus of Nazareth." But he denied it, saying, "I neither know nor understand what you are saying." And he went out on the porch, and a rooster crowed. (Mark 14:66-68)
Here, after the first recorded denial in Mark a rooster crows.4 Moreover, as already noted, Mark records Jesus telling Peter, "before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." In keeping with this prediction, Mark records the two rooster noise making occasions. Once after the first denial, and then the second after the third denial in Mark.
It says immediately after the last denial in Mark, "a second time, the rooster crowed" (Mark 14:72). Then it explicitly records what Peter remembered,
that Jesus had said to him, "Before the rooster crows twice, you will deny Me three times." (Mark 14:72)
This is entirely different than what is found in Matthew and Luke, for in them,
Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, "Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." (Matthew 26:75; see also Luke 22:61)
What Peter remembers Jesus saying are two different things, and the gospels record two different things. Matthew, Luke, and John record Peter denying the Lord three times before a rooster crows. Mark records Peter denying the Lord once, and a rooster crows, and then a rooster crows "a second time" after he denies him two more times.
What did he think about? Two rooster crows and three denials. What did he think about (remember) before this? Three denials before any rooster crow ("the rooster shall not crow this day" Luke 22:34). The three denials and two rooster crows recorded in Mark must have come after the three denials and one rooster crow recorded in Matthew, Luke, and John, because the first set mandated not a single rooster crow until three denials. Therefore, Peter's rememberance and meditation on the two events Christ warned him about further reveal a total of six denials and three rooster crows, because what he remembered and thought about were two different predictions and two distinct sets of events.
So, we see in the gospels that Peter denied the Lord three times, and afterward a rooster crows for the first time; and Peter goes out and weeps bitterly about it. Then, he comes back and gets confronted again, denies the Lord again, and a rooster crows. Yet, despite the crow, Peter continues to be where he can be confronted, and he gets confronted and denies the Lord another two times; and a rooster crows again. Then Peter remembers Christ's words,
Before the rooster crows twice,5 you will deny Me three times. (Mark 14:30)
Then Peter weeps once again.
Now, when Peter "called to mind the word that Jesus had said to him,"
when he thought about it, he wept. (Mark 14:72)
After the first three denials and first rooster crow, Matthew and Luke state he "went out" (Matthew 26:75; Luke 22:62). Mark simply says he wept. It does not declare whether he continued where he was, or left. It is wrong, therefore, to say or indicate he went out after this, or to claim he stayed. It just doesn't say, so neither should we (Proverbs 30:5-6)."
http://www.atruechurch.info/sixdenials.html
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven
Was he the first man. Was the OT wring about that to?
It's a pity you can't watch the video I posted. I'm assuming you are talking about Elijah going up to heaven in a chariot? Well, in the literal translation of the OT, it says Elijah went out into space in a space-craft. You know, the flames that come from blast-off. So now if that translation is correct, then Jesus is correct in saying no man hath ascended to heaven.“OT”
If so then the whole OT is bogus. And as even Israel now acknowledge, there was no exodus, there is nothing in OT worth considering. It was history, the history of slaves written by themselves to glorify them.
So the question, why jesus went o the jews and called all non-jews, dogs(according to jesus)? Why this son of god selected the most fanatic of the races?
[riddle666: Why? Was god unable to prevent contamination?
Because people have free will? Why can't God prevent the world from being contaminated?]
Why was god unable to prevent the contamination of his book?
“"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. " – Matthew 10.35,36.
" If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my " – Luke 14.26.
"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." – Matthew 10.21.”
These are strong words, indeed, for a pacifist, who asked to love one another.
Claire: “The manuscript was written in the 4th century AD as opposed to the gospels that were written in the first century AD.”
“I'm sure there were people out there in the form of Gnostics that attempted to spread lies about Christianity. Even so, no one had a right to murder them.”
The gnostics are christians just like you and other christians. It is only that constantine fancied your version because you had more followers and power. And the christians started as gnostics, a variant of jew. And even now, you have only one bible but many different versions and followers. And only because the rest were murdered and persecuted, one version became the dominant version.
“Okay, so the one sect of Christians believed Jesus was laughing on the cross an another who didn't believe Jesus didn't die on the cross. Problem is, that is not backed up historically.”
There was a book that said that is a proof of the historical fact(for the occurrence of such christians). Nestorians also believed it is the “man” part not god part who died. Again if we look carefully, there was no jesus as described in bible. There might have been an obscure jewish preacher, but he was not the mighty miracle working revolutionary to be noticed by anyone of merit. Different sects started with or without the help of this particular jesus and hoped for their “messiah”. Finally Constantine and the sects who got upper-hand put down all other sects.
If I tell you dinosyus was the real jesus, and all the opposing stories regarding dinosyus was lie(for he too was a son of god, died and resurrected), there is no way for you to disprove it.
“Isaiah 53:4-6:
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth."
Do not appear like that of jesus. No where it is said “jesus”. No where it is said he is going to be crucified. A wild extrapolation just like Nostradamus’s predictions. And to make matters worse the translations is edited so many times to change the word disease to infirmity. It is just like the “space”, you described below. People translated it to fit their belief, not the other way round.And it also helps that the words after hundreds of years change in meaning and scope.
Was Jesus given a grave with the wicked?
"It's a pity you can't watch the video I posted. I'm assuming you are talking about Elijah going up to heaven in a chariot? Well, in the literal translation of the OT, it says Elijah went out into space in a space-craft. You know, the flames that come from blast-off. So now if that translation is correct, then Jesus is correct in saying no man hath ascended to heaven."
Don’t you think you are being a little outlandish? What is the difference between space and heaven? What about Enoch?Riddle666: If so then the whole OT is bogus. And as even Israel now acknowledge, there was no exodus, there is nothing in OT worth considering. It was history, the history of slaves written by themselves to glorify them.
Why must you insist because there is corruption then the whole of the OT must be wrong? The truth history is in the literal translation of the OT which unfortunately you cannot learn about. You are right; there is no proof of exodus, etc. History has been manipulated.
So the question, why jesus went o the jews and called all non-jews, dogs(according to jesus)? Why this son of god selected the most fanatic of the races?
Jesus had to come through some blood-line and the Jews were the most monotheistic even though many were pagan. We cannot say all Jews were fanatical. Jesus did not call all non-Jews dogs. You are referring to this, aren't you?
Matthew 15:21-28
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
Jesus mingled with the Gentiles and obviously did not think they are inferior. He did not believe she was a dog; He was just using the name giving for gentiles to test her faith. He was showing that it doesn't matter if someone is a Gentile or a Jew, if they have faith in Him they will receive Him. Jesus often treated people in a certain way to demonstrate how great faith is. He wanted to see if she would continue asking Him in faith or just accept she was a "dog". And He praised her for her faith. She had humbled herself and submitted to the Lord and recognized she was not worthy. We have to do the same. He need to acknowledge that we will never received the Holy Spirit unless we acknowledge we sin and humble ourselves.
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
He obviously had admiration and respect for her.
Why was god unable to prevent the contamination of[i] his book?[/i]
I've just answered that question. God had to rely on God-inspired people because He has given us free will. It was out of man's free will that Jesus was crucified.
“"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. " – Matthew 10.35,36.
I already explained this one to you.
" If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my " – Luke 14.26.
The NT was not written in English. It was written in Greece so this is a translation issue. The Greek AND Hebrew equivalent to hate is love less.
Numerous Greek scholars have added their combined years of study to the discussion to testify that the word “hate” (miseo) in Luke 14:26 does not mean “an active abhorrence,” but means “to love less.” E.W. Bullinger, in his monumental work, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible, described the word “hate” in Luke 14:26 as hyperbole. He rendered the word as meaning “does not esteem them less than me” (1968, p. 426). W.E. Vine, the eminent Greek scholar, said the word miseo could carry the meaning of “a relative preference for one thing over another.” He listed Luke 14:26 under this particular definition (1940, p. 198). Lastly, A.B. Bruce, in The Expositor’s Greek Testament, stated that “the practical meaning” of the word “hate” in this verse is “love less” (n.d., p. 575).
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte … rticle=781
Here's the Hebrew explanation:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)
Talmudim, 'students' of Jewish rabbis were taught to place their affections for their teachers higher than that for their fathers, for:
"his teacher has priority, for his father brought him into this world, but his teacher, who has taught him wisdom, brings him into the world to come".
But 'hatred'? Surely that is taking loyalty to your teacher too far - even if your teacher is God in human form. For another commandment is that of honouring ones parents - which itself cannot be contradicted. Indeed, this verse in Luke has caused much anguish and pain between zealous Christian sons or daughters and their parents, who believing they were expressing their devotion to Jesus, had no regard or worse still, hatred, for their parents.
But what we have here is another Hebrew problem. Biblical Hebrew lacks the necessary language to exactly define the comparative sense, i.e., 'more than' or 'less than'. Instead it tends to express two things which may be comparatively of different degree like 'first' and 'second' as extremes such as 'first' and 'last'. In this way love and hate whilst appearing as opposites may in fact be related but lesser terms such as 'love more' and 'love less'.
"If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn: But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his." (Deuteronomy 21:15-17)
A Jewish man was not allowed to abandon a 'hated' wife's son's rights of inheritance. But more than this, the Deuteronomy passage describes favouritism between two wives, not absolute love and hatred, for the man bears children by both. Hence, different Bible versions struggle with the phrase "hated" and some adopt "unloved" or "disliked", as softer phrases. However, the Hebrew word used in the second phrase is sânê' (Strong’s #8130) which in its more than 140 uses is always translated by 'hate' or by words indicating 'foe' or 'enemy'. Literal versions cannot soften the apparent invective, only an idiomatic understanding or paraphrase can explain the metaphor.
The Hebrew sânê' is the opposite of love which could mean 'non-election'. This contrast is the same in Genesis 29:31 between Leah ('hated' senû’âh from sânê’) and Rachel, who in the previous verse is described as "loved more than Leah", a contrast of degree not of absolute love and hate. Compare also the passages in Deuteronomy 21:15-17 above; 1 Samuel 1:5; Proverbs 30:23; 2 Samuel 19:6; and even Exodus 20:3 which speaks of preferring others gods as equivalent to hating God (cf. Matthew 6:24 on serving God and mammon, loving one and hating the other).
The Jewish midrash on Exodus describes God as hating the angels, and not just the fallen ones. It does not mean he dislikes Michael and Gabriel! It means that he chooses to give man the Torah, rather than the angels:
"By three names is this mount known: The mountain of God, Mount Horeb and Mount Sinai. . . . Why The mountain of God? (Exodus 18:5). Because it was there that God manifested His Godhead. And Sinai? Because [it was on that mount] that God showed that He hates the angels and loves mankind." (Exodus Rabbah 51.8, Soncino edition)
There is actually a Hebrew wordplay here, for Sinai sounds like the Hebrew for hate, although it begins with a different Hebrew letter and may mean 'thorny'. Similarly, Malachi speaks of God's preference for Jacob over Esau:
"... yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau..." (Malachi 1:2-3)
But Esau, like Ishmael instead of Isaac, was not hated absolutely, only "rejected" as the Aramaic targum (paraphrase) prefers to render it. In Aramaic sanah can mean 'to hate' and 'to separate', so the gospels could be saying separate yourselves from your parents if you want to follow me. This is a possible interpretation, but still against Jewish and biblical culture which is very supportive of family. Apart from Jesus' 'separating' and staying behind in the temple when he was younger he was a very dutiful son."
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/lovehate.htm
Jesus was saying that He must be put first before His parents. People must love their parents less than Him.
This can be backed up by:
"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10:37)
"And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." – Matthew 10.21.”
These are strong words, indeed, for a pacifist, who asked to love one another.
It's not what Jesus wants but families were divided because some remained Jews and others Christians. Perhaps family members were betrayed and given over to the Romans to be put to death. It will be the case again in the future. Families were give up their own when Christians will be executed and that is coming.
Nestorians also believed it is the “man” part not god part who died. Again if we look carefully, there was no jesus [i]as described in bible. There might have been an obscure jewish preacher, but he was not the mighty miracle working revolutionary to be noticed by anyone of merit. Different sects started with or without the help of this particular jesus and hoped for their “messiah”. Finally Constantine and the sects who got upper-hand put down all other sects.[/i]
Since Nestorians were from Syria and Asia Minor, they must have formed their beliefs from the gospels that are preached today. After all, Jesus was not crucified in Syria and so there were no eye-witnesses from Syria.
Gentiles converted to Christianity before Constantine. The power of Christ was great and instead of fighting this power, Constantine chose to tolerate it and stopped the persecution of Christians. He had absolutely nothing to do with choosing gospels. It was Irenaeus.
"St. Irenaeus ( /aɪrəˈniːəs/; Greek: Εἰρηναῖος), (2nd century C.E. – c. 202) was Bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, then a part of the Roman Empire (now Lyons, France). He was an early Church Father and apologist, and his writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. He was a hearer of Polycarp,[1] who in turn was a disciple of John the Evangelist.
Irenaeus' best-known book, Adversus Haereses or Against Heresies (c. 180) is a detailed attack on Gnosticism, which was then a serious threat to the Church, and especially on the system of the Gnostic Valentinus.[2] As one of the first great Christian theologians, he emphasized the traditional elements in the Church, especially the episcopate, Scripture, and tradition.[2] Against the Gnostics, who said that they possessed a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself, Irenaeus maintained that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles — and none of them was a Gnostic — and that the bishops provided the only safe guide to the interpretation of Scripture.[3] His writings, with those of Clement and Ignatius, are taken as among the earliest signs of the developing doctrine of the primacy of the Roman see.[2] Irenaeus is the earliest witness to recognition of the canonical character of all four gospels.[4]"
If I tell you dinosyus was the real jesus, and all the opposing stories regarding dinosyus was lie(for he too was a son of god, died and resurrected), there is no way for you to disprove it.
You have your facts wrong about Dionysus:
Dionysus was the son of Zeus and thus not the son of God. He traveled around teaching people how to make wine. No miracles, however.
He was also killed as an infant but resurrected. That part is true. However, he resurrected into another form because he was eaten.
http://www.geneseo.edu/~easton/humanities/Dionysus.html
http://www.men-myths-minds.com/Dionysus-greek-god.html
That sounds nothing like Jesus.
“Isaiah 53:4-6:
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth."
Do not appear like that of jesus. No where it is said “jesus”. No where it is said he is going to be crucified. A wild extrapolation just like Nostradamus’s predictions. And to make matters worse the translations is edited so many times to change the word disease to infirmity. It is just like the “space”, you described below. People translated it to fit their belief, not the other way round.And it also helps that the words after hundreds of years change in meaning and scope.
No one said Jesus' name was mentioned. It is not hard to put two and two together now. Disease? Infirmity? Please elaborate. It was the Rabbis that decided what would be included in the Tanach and so Isaiah 53 was not edited. I'd like to ask you what you believe Isaiah 53 is about.
Was Jesus given a grave with the wicked?
This is the explanation for that:
Isaiah 53:9
Does Isaiah contradict the New Testament Gospels?
Isaiah 53:9 in the King James Bible reads, “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death.”
I have received two takes on this that claim an inaccuracy or contradiction in the King James Bible.
Take #1: Jesus actually was with the WICKED in death and with the RICH in his grave. In other words, Isaiah got it BACKWARDS.
Take #2: The new translations are more accurate and their translation of Isaiah 53:9 is better than the King James Bible.
Answers:
Take #1 To answer this first accusation, was must refer you to the King James reading above while remembering that the best commentary on the Bible is the Bible itself.
In Romans 6:23, we are told that the wages of sin is DEATH. 2 Corinthians 5:21 then tells us that Jesus was “made… to be sin for us.” In other words, Jesus never sinned but became sin on the Cross. In this way, He became our SUBSTITUTE and paid for the sin of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
Only the WICKED die. Jesus made his grave with the wicked because the sins of the wicked were placed on Him. And that is exactly what Isaiah said would happen.
Also, the text says that he “made his grave… with the rich in his death.” This is absolutely true. He died as the wicked do and was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathaea according to Mark 15:42-47, which describes the preparation and burial in terms that clearly indicate that Joseph of Arimathaea was a man of considerable wealth. He spent serious money on the preparation and owned a tomb originally intended to be used for his own body. ONLY “rich” Jews of the 1st century could pull this off.
Claire:"It's a pity you can't watch the video I posted. I'm assuming you are talking about Elijah going up to heaven in a chariot? Well, in the literal translation of the OT, it says Elijah went out into space in a space-craft. You know, the flames that come from blast-off. So now if that translation is correct, then Jesus is correct in saying no man hath ascended to heaven."
Don’t you think you are being a little outlandish? What is the difference between space and heaven? What about Enoch?
No, I didn't write the OT.
Anyway, people flying on vehicles of flames is not unique to the OT.
In the ancient texts when a god or Taoist emporer is said to have flown to heaven on a dragon, the vehicle is apparently the dragon.
The flying crafts of the ancient gods were called heavenly “boats” by the Egyptians, “flaming chariots” by the Hebrews and “dragons” in China and several other countries.
The dragon’s fiery breath most likely referred to a rocket’s flaming exhaust.
http://amirfatir.tripod.com/sitebuilder … res/et.htm
I'm actually startled at how much the Quran supports the Ancient Astronaut theory.
The Hakatha (Laws of the Babylonians) states:
"The privilege of operating a flying machine is great. The knowledge of flight is among the most ancient of our inheritances. A gift from 'those from upon high'. We received it from them as a means of saving many lives."
The Mahabharata
"At Rama's behest the magnificent chariot rose up to a mountain of cloud with a tremendous din..."
"Bhisma flew with his Vimana on an enormous ray which was as brilliant as the sun and made a noise like the thunder of a storm."
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/viman … anas_4.htm
The bible agrees with the holy spirit. It is not corrupted in the sense that you mean. It has been touched by "corrupt" human hands, but it has been preserved for those who want to know God. If you do not believe the bible, we are at a loss. Christians look to it for answers. That book is what helps OUR spirit to confirm. The bible also says to try the spirit by the spirit. Now, how would we know to do that without that instruction? To ask another of my friends, yields the response of, the "ruach" or something like that, which supposedly means "word of God" is in everyone. It is us. So we automatically know??? Well, the bible also says, how can they hear without a preacher? So maybe not. But that is the problem with believing only PARTS of the bible
but do you think people recognize that???
God's children have a set of rules. We didn't READ them right, so Jesus came to EXHIBIT the word of God. When we look to him, we SEE the father. (He said that too!!!) so, if you do not believe "the whole" of the bible, I guess your walk is hard (EUREKA!!!) wow Claire. Revelation is something. But your walk is not impossible. Look to Jesus. He SHOWED us how to do it. When you trust and follow him, you CANNOT lose.Claire herself has said she doesn't mean 'corrupted'the way you interpret it, so I''ll let her speak for her.
If you read the entire bible there is only contradictions.No, you just said that I didn't say it was corrupted and I did. I was just correcting you.
You said there are only contradictions. Didn't I address one of your comments regarding that?
I'm afraid Jesus was not in harmony with the Old Testament. Our answers do not solely lie in the Bible. They are just words unless one knows the Holy Spirit. When I need answers I ask Him. The Bible never confirmed my faith; my faith confirmed the gospels. It has to be the other way round.
I don't think it takes much to understand that God's law was supposedly to stone adulterers which Jesus defied, for example. My walk is easier because of my discernment because I now know why the OT is as barbaric as it is. I have done some investigation and have realized that the majority of the OT does not refer to God but the "gods". They were physically beings who instructed people like Moses to go to war. This is according to the literally translation of the Old Testament. You can learn more here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MXLB6S … r_embedded
She said bible is corrupted, read one or two more posts before replying in a hurry.
Again, I have read it all. You are misrepresenting, as you are only allowed to do.
Fun and easy are relative terms as well. Following Christ is easy for me. Following Christ is fun for me. I am grateful for the opportunity. My life without God is cold, lonely and confusing. But thankyou for pointing out your feelings in following. Not everyone sees it the same. As for me, his burden is easy, and his yoke is light.
But more correct would be "My life without my version of God is cold, lonely and confusing."
And do not suppose others feel lonely and confusing without god because you do, some people think it as childish.I am not concerned with what people think about much
. I just don't care.
For sure 666, our versions of God are different.
It is "childish" in MY opinion to turn away from God and take the "mark" in an attempt to embrace what frightens you and try to make it fit. Only God may judge your actions. Now... Do you care what I think ???
Do you think Jesus had an easy relationship with the Father?
Does Satan not try and make your life a living misery?Jesus had a seamless relationship with the father. He did not have a "good" time, here on earth, but that was his purpose for coming. He showed everyone that the world is set up to kill you, even when you are innocent.
Yes, Satan tries what he wants. However, Jesus is the BEST remedy. He defeated the enemy long ago. He wins all battles. When you know that; worry, upset, discouragement, fear and sickness are all powerless against you. He is my shield from serious harm. With him, I can handle whatever. When I encounter negative emotion, I call Jesus. Soon, I smile again.Yes, Jesus is the best counter to that but it is peace that comes after a serious battle. In fact, battle against evil for me is a daily thing.
I'll agree, Jesus has never allowed me to go through anything I can't handle.Peace in the midst of the storm.
Best "umbrella" I've ever had
Evading the question, right?
Q1 I presume your answer is YES.
Q2 your answer is Yes
You have not answered 3,4,5,6.
So I'll repeat,
Do you have kids?
4. Do you love them? Ans: yes or No
5. If you love them, will you sell them as slaves or kill them for doing things you do not like? Ans. Yes or No
6. If you do not have kids, do you suppose your parents will do these to you? Ans: Yes or No
Killing and selling to slavery is done by enemies, not friends.
If god is love, how could he ever kill humans(including unborn children) and allow slavery?
If you were in his place, would that be your way of correcting your children?
"Did you ever seek out the definition of condone???"
As a matter of fact, I did. it says: to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/condone
Neither me, nor any present day normal humans regard or treat slavery as acceptable, forgivable or harmless, unless he is a very cruel and savage one.When I was treated unfairly as a kid, in my opinion, I went to my mom. Daddy didn't want to hear it. She always responded, "oh, you'll be ok, they didn't hurt you" when Auntie Mae (who lives in a very large house, or very small mansion) needed housework done; she called over "the kids" for free labor. Was I sold into slavery??? Well I sure felt like it. But I was not allowed to say no. I could not refuse the work.
Jesus NEVER passed on an opportunity to serve. Is he a servant??? A slave? He was spit on, poked with sharp stuff, beaten, and murdered. But you probably don't believe it, though you were there. And you probably teach men NOT to believe it too.
I see you clearly.
We are INSTRUCTED to serve God. Maybe our version of slavery is symbolic. He plainly asks the question: Would you rather be a slave to the world and its systems; or me??? He is much better than man. But his consequences last forever.
Choose ye this day, whom ye will WHAT???
Did God condone slavery? YES! But he uses Webster's other definition. It is only allowed by him. The penalty for rough "slave" driving is steep. But since the bible is "lies" to you, I know why you can't get that.Please answer to the question, thank you.
Was your aunt allowed to beat you to near death? Was she allowed to sell you?
Will she stone you to death, if you disobey?
You were making a comedy out of the slaves when you compare their plight to the kids who were called for house work. If it was so light, why did Martin Luther had to give his life?
Which part of that meaning you found acceptable? No human with any humanity in them will ever accept or allow slavery.
Oh you found the torture of Jesus bad? But do you know that people were tortured even more brutally at that time(even as a form of questioning)? Slaves were tortured similarly for even minor offences. What make these people's torture any less offensive than that of Jesus's?
The penalty is only if the slave died on the same day!Why do you demand people answer your question, but never answer any questions put to you?
I know you contain a hint of intelligence, but how are your comprehension skills? I have answered you much. Your eyes closed???
We are indeed servants. Now you are not, but God's children are.
If you think that God does not allow slavery, your itty-bitty mind is mistaken. It happened. God HAD to allow the atrocity. He allowed Martin to win his war against the powers that enslaved Africans, but still, there is oppression. The devil (i mean yo dad) finds many ways to kill freedom.
You are NOT of God!!!You are still not answering the questions.
Pain is the same for everyone and for a god who went knowingly into that, it might be actually less.
So please answer my questions instead of some questions you made. If you are answering to your own questions instead of mine, how can that be a discussion?Do you have kids?
4. Do you love them? Ans: yes or No
5. If you love them, will you sell them as slaves or kill them for doing things you do not like? Ans. Yes or No
6. If you do not have kids, do you suppose your parents will do these to you? Ans: Yes or No
Killing and selling to slavery is done by enemies, not friends.
If god is love, how could he ever kill humans(including unborn children) and allow slavery?
If you were in his place, would that be your way of correcting your children?Ya know... You are really asking the WRONG person this question.
Have you ever had a "crack-addict" for a son? Did your son ever break into your house and steal all of your belongings? Has your son ever raped your daughter? Has your daughter ever cursed you, spit in your face and told you that you would never see her again???
Yes! I love my children.
Kill them? No, but I would not allow them to share my house if they do not abide by my rules. So cut them off? yeah.
My mother would never harm a flea, my father, maybe.
If my (adult) child has made himself an enemy of mine by constantly being rebellious and shifting responsibility, they might have to just live without me. I can't condone or support extreme foolishness. Now when I give up, God is there. But if that child rejects the Lord, he's made his choice. Happy? I sure hope so.
Will you please remember that God does not grade and measure as we do. His thoughts are not our thoughts. His ways are not our ways. You have gotten it twisted but I really do not believe that it is too late. Aaaaaannnnn, if you hear me, come out!!! If my child the things you say, I''ll taking him to a psychiatrist not banish him.
Secondly you are not answering my questions, slaves are not slaves because of their fault. They didn't rape or steal. Some may have failed to honour their debt, but that is because they are extremely poor and most had no fault except that they were born in a different tribe.
And what crime did unborn and 1yr old children do to merit death or slavery?
And what do you mean by 'love'?
If I'm willing to die for someone I''ll not banish him for what he is.God does not think the way we think. Death and destruction are everywhere. Slavery seems to be over though all sorts of oppression exists. Why is slavery (a concern of man) so important to you??? God is concerned about freedom
thats why he sent Jesus.
Ooooohhh, that is your "weapon" of choice. As I told you, you may fool some...Again trying to wiggle out of the question?
You said I'm confused, but it appears you are.
If I love my son to die for him, I''ll not kill him or sell him. You understand that much?
So if I'm willing to kill or sell him I'm lying when I say I love him.
Now answer, whether your god lies or loves?God is not a man that he should lie. He just does not see "it" as you do. You may fight all you want. But his will goes forth, slavery or no.
He does not have to buy or sell. The world is his. He allows the "world's" system, for now.
Your questions have all been answered. They do not sound the way you think they should but, you and I think differently. Because of my God, I am two, no three steps ahead.
Riddle666?
That is no riddle. 666 is the "mark of the beast". It appears on the hand or forehead of those who serve the "anti-christ" during the "great tribulation". While most TV Christian teachers say it is a bar code or implant, it is good to remember that John’s vision was full of allegory. He was confused by it all himself.
The mark is allegorical. There is no great mystery about what this means. It symbolizes what one has his mind fixed on and his hand doing. We all know right from wrong, and there is no excuse for our abominable attitudes and actions
What do you do to your adversaries? Kill them?
I don't do anything with my adversaries. "I will repay, says the Lord."
Gosh - what a powerful woman you are. You create adversaries and then your invisible friend hurts them real bad.
How very Christian of you.It is what it is. Not necessarily as you say
but your confusion was noted long ago... I understand.Not confused at all. I get it just fine thanks. You create an imaginary division and call anyone on the other side an "adversary." Gotcha.
I was being truthful.
Save me a seat by the fire.You must save your own seat. But, I think you are doing a pretty good job though. You just might hit your target.
Oh - I know that is what you think.
I wonder if that answers your OP? I bet Stan is very pleased with the ill will you create.
Your conclusion is in error and groundless.
Intellectual abilities have no power to reveal the mind of Almighty God. You need a spiritual connection through the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, no one can know God unless He reveals Himself.
Yep. Those who are too weak and fearful to lead their own lives, and willing to embrace slavery.
Strut yo stuff.
the world is waiting for your contribution. I will be right here, when you're done. Good luck!!!
So which sock puppet are you genaea? Don't you think this dishonesty has gone on long enough? Since you serve such a "truthful" god, why don't you reveal who you really are?
My name is Genaea Carson
Um... getitrite??? Your "name" is quite revealing of your character/ego. Would you like to reveal who YOU really are??? I will understand if you wish to remain nameless. Accuser. I think that fits though you look kinda like Einstein. Any relation???You are who you say you are. I looked you up on Facebook and linkedin and every picture reveals your great smile (your words). You may however be a little deceptive in terms of what you convey about yourself here on hubpages. Beautiful children and dogs. Please never leave those dogs (or any dogs) alone with those adorable children.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Strangely though, you know who I am. Who are any of you??? I am speaking to a room-full of avatars!!!
I have no fears of being "discovered".I personally have been threatened with bodily harm a few times so I like to make it difficult to contact me. Perhaps someday I'll friend you on Facebook if that's okay.
Sure, what is your facebook persona?
Threats...??? Hmmm. Sad, but some do go that far. I will have a smooth attitude about it. My God is my protector. When it is "time" I will be ready. I have found it difficult, throughout my life, to closet my skeletons. I quit trying Also, I have been wrongfully accused on quite a few occasions. People do and say what they want. I find it funny. It actually makes me laugh. My smile is genuine, though I "hurt" often. It is God on the inside that allows me to actually realize that nothing is worth draining my joy. I make the choice to see him in every situation. He makes it ok everytime. Finding me is gonna get easier I have no doubt you are a great person. Your smile, your kid(s), your dog, your fiance all look great. This is me protecting me. Atheists never threaten harm, but some muslims and christians do.
I know exactly how you feel as a Christian and a minister I often find those who want to contest my faith or "Make me prove it," I do not debate God, his existence, nor his word. If you disagree with me and how I believe, we will agree to disagree, agreeably. If they can't do that, then they are representatives of the enemy who are out to stir strife and confusion. I have no time for those folks and I refuse to acknowledge them. Lastly I do not apologize for the word of God, I believe it to be as it has been proven by history through the years to be the absolute, irrefutable, undeniable truth. God said It believe and that settles it . Before anyone writes or comments on my writings you need to know that just because you don't believe it doesn't make it any less true, your disagreeing with or not liking the post will not make me change it. Because you feel that I am wrong doesn't mean that I am ( wrong, right , or indifferent is not for you to decide in my life.) No matter how much you want to argue and debate it , will not change my mind on the subject. I refuse to publish any mean, derogatory, defamation, comments, they will be deleted and repeated submits of such will be reported to the HP officials.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
None of you ever answers that question.
No God? No biblical instruction? Then what??? Please lend me your ears!!! What then??? Let me explain to you how "nonsensical" your newly found beliefs are to me. Pleeeease!
Whenever you are ready.
See, you don't realize that not believing this message forces you into another box. Unless you choose to believe in "nothing". And I don't have to tell you how ridiculous that isThe question was - does reducing medication make you rave like a loony on speed ?
Ok, you are, by far, the most intelligent on the forums. You responded what was the question, to THREE questions. So we have yet another "tongue stealing cat" victim
Anyone else???You said. "Nobody ever answers that question." (and then proceeded to ask 3 more). No God? Is not really a question. No biblical instruction? OK - we do away with slavery and stoning adulteresses. Then what? We have what we have without god thanks.
So - what was the question again?You dismiss Jesus because a few pages before him they were acting a fool. Jesus is the encspsulation of all the truth combined. Find out what he said. Find out why he said it.
No - I dismiss Jesus because the entire thing makes no sense at all. Plus I Know where the myth was taken from. I also know what he was supposed to have said.
What did he say about slavery again?Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)Maybe he can't be given direct credit for those statements, but he sure did say the following:
Matthew 5:17 King James Bible
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
So are we to understand that Jesus is going as far as to say that even the barbaric slave practices of the Old Testament are valid, moral behaviors...sanctioned by god?The law stands. Those ten are written in stone. The prophets mostly, if not all, told about the coming of Jesus. He fulfilled what they said. He corrected the thoughts of humanity about the law of God and how loving he is. How the law points to love. Believe what you like. It is not required of you to believe. Why wrestle with it?
Okay, in answer to your question, I do not believe in any god that I've ever heard of, and there is no sufficient evidence to prove or support the belief that a god exists. I'm a humanist, so I believe in humanity. I believe in our ability to do good without a religion telling us we should. I don't believe in heaven, hell or an afterlife. So what?
I used to believe in god, until I stated using my brain to actually study it. Then I simply could not believe it anymore, so no, this is not how its always been. If you believe slavery is immoral, but youbelieve that a god who endorses and allows it is moral, its a contradiction and you are choosing to ignore it and exhibit willful ignorance. You simply don't care if your beliefs are true, or if they are moral. You just want to. You have the right to your own beliefs.
What brought me here? I'm pretty sure its an open forum and anyone is welcome to comment. Otherwise why post?Humanity is your guide? Wow! Good thing you were not "indoctrinated" by Hitler. The world is crooked. People are crooked. You give up on the truth because you saw a few pages about slavery? Yet humanity has proven "everyday in the news" that slavery is "where it's at" and war is accepted wholeheartedly.
I used to believe in God. Until I decided to study it for myself. I found that it checks every box in strength and righteousness for humanity and Jesus finishes the "cake" perfectly. When I studied, I was not looking to find something wrong. I asked the Lord to allow me to see "it" clearly. And I did. I asked questions, I received answers. I read the full chapter in some cases to find the context in which the words were spoken. To me, slavery was a big part of life back then. I think God allowed them to do it because they have free reign over their actions. He allowed the rules to be set. I guess I will take a look at the passages again. Though we are far past the days of slavery, it still exists.
The bible was written for those who have said yes to God already. The rules are for them. Only they can understand them fully. Jesus pointed the way. All the other stuff happened as a result of people being people. Jesus is our guide. We try to take in his character by agreeing with it. We listen to HIS words. They are the only unfalible reflection of God. Now THAT is most important.
It is not REQUIRED that you believe. It is not REQUIRED that you obey. What's your beef???Notice that the believer is unable to observe the world without biblical indoctrination.
Biblical indoctrination causes them to believe they are special amongst everyone else, and only they can understand words written in a book.
Yet, place any other book in front of them and all understanding ceases to exist.First of all, I don't understand a lot of your sentences. What's your native language?
Humanity is nor my guide, per se. Why do you think I need a guide?
Again you're assuming things with no justification. Its childish. Don't assume things about a person you know nothing about, its rude. I did not stop believing in god because the Bible discusses slavery. I stopped believing in god because the Bible is immoral, and any god that would command those things is a bloodthirsty tyrant who is not worthy of worship, praise or attention. It contradicts itself, sgo it could not possibly be the word of a perfect being that claims to know everything.
The Bible is not for people that already believe. That's ridiculous. The Bible itself says that its a guide to show petite the truth. You certainly don't seem to know much about it. You get that Hitler was a serif-proclaimed catholic, right? And that the majority of the German people followed him. Not dissenting is just the same as giving consent.
Its your religion that teaches that human beings are depraved, pathetic should incapable of knowing how to do good without the presence of god.It is a guide to show petite the truth??? What's YOUR native language?
God COMMANDED slavery??? He is immoral??? Then how could he produce someone like Jesus. And make him the head? Are you thinking with your heart? The mind rejects God because it does not make logical sense. But how can it? We were not there? We don't know.People, not petite. It has nothing to do with language, its autocorrect on my phone.
God did dictate slavery, and supported it. You agree that slavery is immoral, yet god endorses it. You don't recognize that it makes your god immoral. Think about it a different way. If you take the ten commandments (which btw existed prior to the Jews and no divine guide was necessary), it says "thou shalt not kill" yet god commands people to kill - repeatedly. That's immoral. God had no problem with saying"don't kill people" so he has no problem dictating laws. Why didn't he say "don't own another human being?
My last paragraph is pretty clear. I said I Am a humanist, and you said people were messed up and bad - your religion teaches you that original sin is what makes people bad. That doesn't make it true, just because you don't believe it.
god came to earth as Jesus in order to sacrifice himself to himself in order to allow himself the ability to forgive his creation. That's immoral, and ridiculous.
Incidentally, Jesus said not to plan or save for the future, so if you have a bank account, you're not following Jesus. If you own anything, you are not following Jesus. It may not be immoral, per se, but it its bad advice.
Hey J! Check your last paragraph as well. I just did not get it either.
Morality doesn't need to be taught to most. You see it in children a 6 months old. What makes humans successful is our ability to share information and inventions not in ability to be creative. It only took a few people to invent the plane and the rest of the world benefits from the invention because of our ability to share.
No biblical instruction, no islamic instruction. = no wars and peace on earth, John Lennon wrote a song about it.Kinda cheating... Don'tcha think???
So, John Lennon is the one you follow???
You follow the lead of "fellows"???
You come up with the rules yourself??? You read it in ANOTHER book???The constitution of my country and my own sense of morality is all I need. I don't need the bible to tell me how to deal with slaves or what to do with people captured during war. I personally have a stronger sense of morality than that and I trust you do as well. I don't believe in God and yet have never killed or purposely wounded another. I don't take advantage of the elderly or week minded for money as some televangelists do.
I am following the lead of Jesus. Not Creflo. I have made up in my own mind that God is all I need. My country has turned against me.
Personally, Genaea would "cuss" you all the f*ck out and tell you to kiss my $. But, I know that my God would not be pleased Jesus did not behave that way. Now, I cannot tell you that I am always this "Godly", but this is my strong area I can talk to you til my words are heard in your sleep. And not be phased.
God, I agree with. Einstein is questionable.Imhotep,
Jeshotep,
Jesus,
A Troubled Troll.
This is NOT your strong area. You make sense to yourself, but not anyone else. You seem incapable of answering even the most simple questions. You claim persecution when people disagree with you, and you believe you're under attack, but conversely you have NO problem insulting anyone else, saying that they're bitter, mocking them, using sarcasm, etc. you cannot stick to a subtext, you resort to fallacy after fallacy, setting up one straw man after another, mocking People's beluga and refusing to understand that people don't need god to be good.
You don't know even the basics of the Bible, you don't know history and you lack even the most basic concept of debate. You're proven over and over again that you're closed minded and that you choose to be ignorant. This discussion is simply not worth my (or anyone else's time.) You're just another troll looking for a reaction, knowing that you don't have a foundation to stand on. I'd rather discuses anything with someone who actually knows what they're talking about and not just repeat ridiculous dogma, insults, mocking and nonsense.Hi!
All of your questions have been answered. maybe not according to YOUR closed-heartedness; but answered.
I am not insulted by your "rant" I expected it from the beginning did you read the OP?
Troll??? What is a troll in your opinion? I've been called worse. I'm sure.
You have proven, more than others, that I am in the right spot. You have just came on the scene; already, you have formed an opinion ABOUT ME based from the fact that God is my father and I believe the words of Jesus, without question. I can handle that.
Exodus 21:20-21 NLT
If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.
Colossians 3:22 (NLT)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything you do. Try to please them all the time, not just when they are watching you. Serve them sincerely because of your reverent fear of the Lord.
Commandment #10. You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NLT
But suppose the man’s accusations are true, and he can show that she was not a virgin.The woman must be taken to the door of her father’s home, and there the men of the town must stone her to death, for she has committed a disgraceful crime in Israel by being promiscuous while living in her parents’ home. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.
Yup, I think we can do better. It's right in Commandment #10, you should not want your neighbour's slave. Notice there is no commandment against have a slave? We've made improvements over that last few thousand years.What if the "slave" offered his services as payment for debt? As they often did in those days.
If it is a female 'slave' for sexual slavery, it's heaven, no harassment charges.
Still not allowed today. No need to own him. Pay him and he will pay you back. Common sense really. I haven't seen that on Judge Judy yet. "You owe him $5000 and have no money so you are his slave for a month. You can beat him as much as you like as long as he remains alive. Is that what you would like to see?
No. Again, those were laws of men. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Jesus pointed to the correct interpretation of the laws if God. Quote me something else from him!!! HE is the way.
You've confused me again. You claimed it okay if the person who owes money makes himself a slave to the person he owes money to. Perhaps your replied to the wrong person.
Now you are focusing on me
Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Remember?I don't understand Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. To me this is what my Northern east coast family says when they are angry.
Notice that the believer is unable to conceive of a world without biblical instruction.
Notice that the believer is unable to conceive
Ladies and Gentleman, we have a taker!!! Finally. Sogladitsu!
go ATM! What is the absolute truth?! And please don't say children are dying, we know.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
I think I spelled that word wrong. Sorry
but you know what I mean!!! - genaeaposted 12 years ago0
No... Same post!!!
who did you call dissonant? I am the one belief believer remember? You are the ones with many.That's not on point. Cognitive dissonance occurs when your beliefs contradict what you say they are. For instance, you might say you worship a LOVING GOD, however scripture paints a picture of a bloodthirsty, evil, childish psychopath. This is exactly where dissonance occurs...and this is when you go into your strategy to reduce the dissonance. The way i reduced the dissonance was to just admit that the god of the bible is imaginary. Dissonance removed! Instantly!
The only other way is to embrace dishonesty. However, I understand how much courage it takes to be honest in a society of, inadvertently, dishonest believers. Fear allows silly superstitions to rule the day...Awwww!!!
To me, this same dissonance can be displayed in the fact that YOU and YOUR COHORTS do not believe in this "imaginary" God. then fervently debate that fact! (No Tooth Fairy OPs for me!!! )
Trying to reason it away to calm your "conflict"???
Is that NOT funny??? And dissonant???
I have never seen my God as a bloodthirsty nothing. I find no fault in him whatsoever
Dissonant would not accurately describe my dilemma. It is actually the "dissonance" of most of youYou're not bothered by this?
Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT
Anyone who is captured will be cut down—run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked, and their wives will be raped.
“Look, I will stir up the Medes against Babylon. They cannot be tempted by silver or bribed with gold. The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for children.”
Exodus 21:15 NKJV
And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 20:10 NLT
If a man commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, both the man and the woman who have committed adultery must be put to death.
Leviticus 21:9 NLT
If a priest’s daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she also defiles her father’s holiness, and she must be burned to death.
2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NKJV
Then they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; 13 and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.Those were instructions by God (according to the bible). They sound evil to me. You may want to reread them.
Most of the Bible quotes you have been using are Old Testament. An eye for an eye was the logic in that time. The New Testament changed most of the thoughts you are quoting.
Mark 12:31 Love you neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 7:12 Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Ever heard of these verses? They used to be popular in America.Good point, but that doesn't excuse the OT does it. Do you justify the OT as not being the word of God? Or do you think God used to be all violent and mean, but now he's all loving.
God didn't change we evolved. The Middle East still has people that live by the eye for an eye philosophy. Not to say the US doesn't, look at our gangs, but we try to see the other persons side of the issue and respect others. Then, again it may be we are to busy keeping up with the Jones and don't have time to be violent. Remember the "Silent Majority" from a few years ago? We weren't silent just too busy with both parents working, a house and kids to protest, etc. Look at us now, the Occupiers were college age or unemployed for the most part because the ones that work for a living don't have time to think about what is going on much less protest.
In other words, God didn't change peoples needs and circumstances changed. We changed what we needed from Him.And He was unable to anticipate this? Weird.
Ephesians 6:5 (NLT)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT
Anyone who is captured will be cut down—run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked, and their wives will be raped.
“Look, I will stir up the Medes against Babylon. They cannot be tempted by silver or bribed with gold. The attacking armies will shoot down the young men with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for children.”
Are you sure this sounds like the same God of the NT?
Americans are NOT know for seeing the other's side of view. Americans have no idea what is going on in the middle east, you don't even know what's going in the country right next to you.Why do we negotiate with other countries if we trying to see their side and compromise?
I live in Texas so I know a lot of what is going on in Mexico. I resent the fact that the Federal Government has posted areas in South Texas, telling us it is too dangerous to travel in our own country, because they are too tolerant of other countries. Drug cartels are doing more than causing trouble in Mexico, their citizens-not all illegal aliens are cartel members-are retaking parts of our country and running it however they wish.
Uh no, the OT was the unquestionable, irrevocable and undeniable word of God. It wasn't logic at all.
Yes, it is interesting how the unquestionable, irrevocable and undeniable word of God flip-flopped. Oops!
No. Your understanding of logic needs to be remedied. Do you not understand that to deny the lie that you and your ilk proposes, of a silly childish fairytale god. circumvents cognitive dissonance? By contrast...when continuing to believe the lie, you have to tell more lies...and more lies...and more lies...just to get some relief from the dissonance. You are standing on very shaky ground, psychologically.
There is no fact to debate. We are debating the veracity of an ancient book of abject nonsense, written by dubious authors, stating silly childish fantasies, and trying to make the masses believe that this was actually inspired by the creator of the universe.
Atheist are not TRYING to reason this nonsense away. By denying this ridiculous claim outright, they completely avoid the dissonance.
Of course, the most likely course of action, of someone who rigidly refuses to admit error, is to become unbalanced, and assert outright dishonest statements. Madness!
You and I both know that is a lie, but I understand why believers MUST lie. It's the last haven to escape the dissonance. Do you realize how much of a stranglehold this ridiculous fraudulent nonsense has on our lives? Evolve, please!Don't you see...!??? Your "evolution" can begin right now by flicking to another channel??? I am evoled already
It is YOU who's "got some 'splainin' to do". I have all the fact/answer I need. I ask no questions of you concerning the place that YOU have decided to place your faith. I don't really have a stake in that. I am nor confused nor lying. You and YOUR dissonance lies to you. It is telling you that you do not believe my message. And you, are trying to refute that with the "lie" that you have been "informed" in another direction.
Look at it this way: I know that the "tooth fairy" is a myth. It made children feel good about losing teeth, I guess. So, i need no "proof" that she doesn't exist. In turn, I need no proof that she does exist. She is of NO concern to me. Furthermore, I will not join forums that discuss her period.
But Jesus gets my attention obviously, YOURS TOO. Isn't that funny??? Your perception is egregiously distorted. NOT believing in the tooth fairy cannot be compared to NOT believing in your foolish god, since your government is in agreement on this issue. They tell you JUST WHAT TO BELIEVE, and you fearfully and blindly acquiesce. If they would have told you that the tooth fairy was real, you would have believed that too! Trust me.
Secondly, the tooth fairy has no effect on our lives, since it does not try to pass laws that discriminate against certain groups, or impose morality upon society. It also never burned innocent women at the stake, or committed genocide against indigenous people...or enslaved millions.
People like you have to be confronted, because your beliefs have proven to be ANTI-HUMAN. As many more people awake from the slumber of deluded belief, you must realize that you have, now, lost carte blanche status, and your beliefs are in our sights, targeted for annihilation.
Your MESSAGE is as insignificant as it is absurd, but it is the fact that the government allows, and even sanctions such nonsense, that is disturbing. This has to change.Which government are you referring to?
And are you always so martial in your statements?"One nation, UNDER GOD"
Loaded question.
Hope life is content for you.Very smart of you to hope for something for someone else, that you long for. You just might get it!
so proud of your "baby-steps" Congratulations!!! You just might get it. That whole thing about "Under God" is not quite as cut-and-dry as many people on both sides want to think. Sounds like a good idea for a hub!
If there is no God, and you are sure of that, you need no explanation pro or con.
Anything that goes contrary to what Jesus did/said is against God. The government was not there "that night". The government taught me nothing but the law of this land and how it can be broken by the powers that be. This world is run by forces that are against God, not for. God runs the people that belong to him. If you do not want that and you know that it is silly beyond belief, why stay here to discuss it with me, a believer? You can't even see how silly it is to debate what you believe to be fallacy??? If you are trying to change some laws, you should be talking to the government, not me, again.Yep the imaginary son of a non-existent deity. Makes perfect sense.
But why do you think they sanction your ridiculous beliefs?
The god that your government, in collaboration with the witch doctor, created, Yes. MAKES PERFECT SENSE!
The government...and the witch doctor sent a proxy.The Lord is real. I cannot convince you of that. It's cheating
now if you want what the father has, ask and it shall be given. If you don't want it, keep hanging on to people who do. Isaiah said, I'm not gon' let you go til you bless me Lord I guess it is fine for you too. Stick around! Delusions can be very convincing, but only to those who are already deluded, or the weak minded in general. You have no power in the face of reason. Even young children, if not indoctrinated, can see this silly world view for what it is.
I could never stoop to the level of immorality that your beliefs require, since these beliefs are sexist, racist, homophobic, abusive, murderous, hateful, ignorant, psychotic, dishonest, brutal, insane, illogical, narcissistic, genocidal, judgmental, backward, anti-intellect...
I guess I just can't allow fear to force me to compromise my morals, as I am the person who decides what is right and wrong, and if wrong applies to me, it also applies to your very disturbed image of god.
This God, created by savages from the distant past, is totally despicable!
By the way, Jesus himself was not imaginary. There is proof He existed. The question has always been was He God's Son or not.
To change the subject just a little how do people without faith in God get through life? Isn't it scary and depressing? Real question, I'm not making fun of you, getitrite.There is no CONCRETE evidence supporting even the historical Jesus. There is only a desperate attempt at making the most vague references valid.
The bible doesn't count as a reference.
To ask such a question shows the level of your indoctrination. You are completely blind to the reality that belief in childish fairy tales does not make life any better for anyone. It's only scary if one has a weak mind. We are adults...there are no monsters under the bed...there is no Santa to bring us presents...and there is no books that were dictated by the creator of he universe to a bunch of ignorant goat herders.Where is this proof exactly? And don't say "the bible." I have never heard of any - and I have looked.
Life is scary and exhilarating. Not depressing at all.
To ask you the reverse - if death is so much better than life - why are you still here?
How getitrite do you not remember people have been trying to wipe out the Christian Church since Jesus was alive. It doesn't happen and, by the way the Old Testament is connected to the Jewish Torah. Christians just love their fellow men and women and don't want them to miss what we have been promised. If we are wrong, you get the last laugh if not we don't want anyone to miss God's glory.
Perhaps you've forgotten about the European Dark/Middle ages or the inquisitions or the crusades?
We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.
Ann CoulterAnn Coulter is one voice and doesn't speak for all Christians, not even all conservative Christians, not even all American conservative Christians.
I know she doesn't speak for me.
By confronting people like you, and pointing out just how silly these beliefs are. By ceasing the indoctrination of innocent children. By opposing every measure that your ilk tries to push on society, that is based on your silly magic book. The world is not the same as it was in ancient times. There is too much information available, that is easily accessible to everyone. It's only a matter of time
I guess that's why the earlier Christians, coming to America, tortured and murdered the natives in order to force this love upon them...and why they beat slaves severely if they were found to be worshiping the god of their native culture. That's not love, that's diabolical.Yes, it was diabolical and I resent a lot of things done in the name of God. I repeat, Christians ARE NOT perfect, they are blessed. By that I mean we have an outlet when we are scared or worried about something we have an assurance that "this too shall pass". I can take whatever comes because I know in the end I have Heaven where I will get my rest and peace.
I have seen too many miracles in my life time to doubt. I am sorry, however, that the thought of our peace and happiness disturb you so much.I think the point is the cost of that so-called peace and happiness in human lives and stifled intellect is so disturbing.
How many Christians claim to have seen miracles? Everyone has seen them, but no one has ever been properly documented and scrutinized. I don't think they know what a miracle is.
Christians are not blessed, they are, however, delusional.
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I'm content as well, since I, too, know that "this too shall pass." That's common sense. There's no need of invoking ancient, imaginary, childish fairy tales, unless there is some psychosis involved.
There you go creating conflict where there is none. I am, in no way, opposing your peace and happiness. Why are you creating this strawman? Wow! Slandering me...just so you can claim persecution! Your beliefs are so immoral.
So the Christians were coming to America??? Or setting up America??? You people really confuse me with your switching positions. It is getting harder and harder to tell who believes what. But I aint surprised. Where there is no God, there is confusion. APPARENT
Yeah, I'm still confused about that talking snake, and that virgin birth, and that resurrection. And I just can't fathom the math, or science that supports the creation of the sun after 3 days.
Of course some people have all the answers because they have God. It appears that God is a euphemism for insanity?
One might "believe" in the contents of a book, but one has to read it first in order to gain an understanding so they no longer have to believe.
When you read "so you don't have to believe" the bible, you don't. Jesus is our example. Most people don't want to be like Jesus. So, they do what you did.
What kind of snarky question is that?
You seem to be a good representative of Christian behavior. About par for the course.
Which is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
You're missing the point entirely, an understanding of something precludes the need to believe in it. Since, the Bible is filled with nonsense, it is understandable as such, hence no need to believe it one way or the other.
It does not appear you have read the Bible, hence have not gained an understanding of it."Lean not on your own understanding."
You only have two eyes on the front of your head. There is more to life than you can see. End of story.U funny!
Aren't you trying to understand the bible? Even if you are not, "precludes a need to believe???" You are fun-nay! So if I attempt to understand, I NEED to believe??? You don't be readin' yo posts.
True. Or so that they can find confirmation or a deeper understanding of what they believe.
I suppose that's possible, but it would certainly be a stretch that anyone could believe in something and then find confirmation in the Bible.
That's because the confirmation has already occurred before they ever even opened the bible. But they will pretend that they have come to a conclusion from the perspective of an opened mind. Psychosis is very deceptive indeed.
One must waste his time in order to disprove books written by morons. That's the process, dear genaea.
You are sure doing a great job of wasting your time!
Those smiley faces were cool when they first came out in 1984.
Yes, you said the same thing as another sock puppet that was banned.
"And then what? It still holds true. They are outdated." he said to the other sock puppet.
And, when you get banned, you can create yet another sock puppet account and repeat yourself all over again.
Why not, you do the same thing all the time.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
I know the tooth fairy is not real!!! I know she's not!!! Nope! You can't make me believe it. It has been proven with math!!!
Uh uhn!!! Ain't no real tooth fairy, you crazy!!! Look, I don't know what you smokin, but there is no such thing as the tooth fairy!!!
Prove it then!
HA!!!! You can't prove it!!! Naaanaaananana, you can't prove it!!! Ha!!!! I got'chu!
Please? you have actually seeeen the tooth fairy??? HOGWASH!!!
EVERY BODY AGREES THAT THERE AINT NO SUCH THING AS NO TOOTH FAIRY!!!
See, I tol'ja! No such thing!!!
Prove it then!!!
Intelligent and dissonance-free Ladies and Gentleman; how did that sound??? Looney???
Maybe I really, really want to believe in the tooth fairy??? - genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Hey 666!
The death of Jesus, to me, is the worst ever!!! I think all Christians agree there. He was blameless of all charges. For you to "liken" it to the death of anyone else is, to me, a greater atrocity than owning and brutalizing slaves. We humans deserve what we give out, since you wanna be so fair.
God withholds punishment for those who trust him. - genaeaposted 12 years ago0
And, not everyone has access to psychiatry, but everybody can surrender all to Jesus.
My issue is not as severe as what I mentioned, but the very issues I mentioned happen everyday.
Our children can really try our patience. And most of us earthlings just don't have as much as others. But the Lord promised to care for the "shunned".
Can I say it to you any plainer???If my child is mentally deranged and I can't get a psychiatrist I''ll lock him up and and give him food, instead sending him out to die like a wild animal.
And if I'm powerful like your god, I''ll cure him.True colors
My God is powerful, but when you tell him no, he cannot reach you.
For sure, he can work with a no, but it usually aint pretty. We are not so powerful. We can only lead the "horse" to the water.Again changing the topic?
The question is why an all powerful LOVING God condone murder and slavery and why he kill innocent people?Ask him. He is available to all.
He is not moved by the same things that move you. He is all-knowing.So you do not know?
So what you are saying is just YOUR opinions rather than the reality, that which is taught you?
Then on what authority you say god is love or god condone slavery?
"God is not a man that he should lie."
Neither he a man to love or die or rule or condone.
" He just does not see "it" as you do."
What gives you the authority to speak for God? And it is not god but YOU who told me god is love and he condone slavery, so it is your job to explain.
Simply stating unrelated things won't do.Wow!!! No wonder; you are really bratty.
You want only the answer you want. Yes, God allowed slavery, he allows murder, he sllows you to type lies about him and he loves us all to pieces.
For your claims to be valid, there is no God. These horrible things happen. But that does not mean that he is powerless or uncaring/loving. He allows and forgives. But time is limited. Life is short.I want a proper answer not contradictions.
YOUR god not only allows but does murder.
You are contradicting yourself when you say the same one who kills, loves.
Imagine if I'm a murderer what meaning does it carry when I say I love the victim?
" claims to be valid, there is no God. "
You know nothing about God. Well there is NO god as YOU say- a psychopath, a murderer who has extreme human emotions, who kill himself to prevent people from going to the hell he made for them.
" He allows and forgives."
Forgives whom? Your God himself is the murderer, he himself is the one who make hell, so is he forgiving himself?I am not able to give you what you want. I just don't have it. It does not even exist in my opinion.
You have your own system. Your "morality" surpasses the God of Abraham???
You are a liar. And I say that with the utmost respect of your personhood. The confusion in which you find yourself is common. Many stand with you on your opinions.
But, every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess... My God is Lord.
All others? Counterfeit. I don't really see how we can continue this conversation, though I am sure you will come up with a way; even if you must change personas, yet again.
I will be here, I guess. And I will have more of the same bible, God the father, the son, AND the holy Spirit. You cannot fight me on that. I am "armed". And my battle was won already i know you rememberIf evading answers and issuing contradictory statements is what you call winning, you won.
If you remember correctly you are not able to differentiate between love and murder.
And it is not MY morality, it is the morality of any normal modern human. Any modern human wince at even the thought of slavery, but I'm sorry if you find slavery and murder acceptable. For me, slavery and murder is contemptible by any standard, and I'm not confused about that.
Do not think because you cannot think outside your version of god, because you will be confused without your god version, doesn't mean others are confused or have different 'personas'.
Abraham's God? just because an ancient tribe, like any other tribe, devised a barbaric god like themself,why should that be an authority on anything? Which god can be greater or wiser than Lord Krishna?Well, I don't know lord Krishna; but my God (if not the same) is wiser and greater. Who is lord Krishna???
You came to this conversation disguised as a child of God. Now you belong to lord Krishna??? Impostors are always contradictory. Again, I understand your confusion.
It is not your job, nor mine to come up with what is acceptable. That is written in stone somewhere.
You are no judge. If we followed YOUR morality, we would all be in trouble.
God the father of Jesus is lord. Follow him, or don't.
You are barking up the wrong tree. I am here with a lion. Not just any lion.If doing murder and allowing slavery is greatness,obviously yours is the greater one.
Your God's name is Yahweh, mine has all the names in the world, but is commonly known as Krishna or Vishnu.
If non-contradictory statement is a sign of confusion, I'm confused and as the one who issue only contradictory statements you are the least confused.
"If we followed YOUR morality, we would all be in trouble. "
So you think abolishing slavery was a mistake, but abolishing it has done us only good and the majority is with me.
"I'm with a lion"
Add albeit imaginary. But you are right, only a beast can do murder and condone slavery or incest.Incest? I'm sorry. God is still there. He allows he denies. He has the power to do so.
Vishnu has no power. But in reading about him I noticed that he "killed" Kamsa and his cruel associates when he was young. My God is never described as born from anyone, nor in his youth.
Obviously, you have not thoroughly studied your Lord. He not ordered murder, but rather carried it out himself??? And his parents (my God has no parents) were criminals?? Jailed?? Believe as you may. I must trust the one true and living God.Ha ha! They are all stories created by the wise of yore to educate the public and also that the common man can relate to. Actually there is only one book about him, and only one chapter in the book - The Bhagavad Gita and The chapter 11, The Vishwarupadarsanayogam. The rest are all explanations and how humans can reach him, so that the common man can understand. The part you describe are about deities similar to Yahweh for common consumption.
It is clear that you have a different outlook. We are now debating your lord???
No debate. Have at whatever position you want to accept. I am here to talk about my lord. I cannot tell you that you are wrong, that is for you to know. We must agree to walk in different directions, unless you want more of my lord. I cannot effectively speak on Vishnu. I do not know him. I do not really want to. I am convinced that God the father is my constant companion. I believe that he is the only true God.
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me.
Rather discuss gravity??? I see that there is A LOT to be said about it.I do not want to discuss Vishnu because,
You will not understand it, as for you god is a 'superhuman' human.
Even if you try to understand, you will be in trouble for you will be confused and lonely without the father figure God, just like a child who might be told Santa Claus is not real.
Then you do not even understand your bible properly, but just see the part you want and interpret anything to satisfy your preconceived notions and won't see anything contradictory as it will make you confused...as you already told.I can only give you smug emotion for this post.
I know what I speak about. Vishnu I have no desire to get to know. I am glad to say that without my God, I am lost, cold AND lonely. I have never even had an inkling of Vishnu. My God, I feel everyday. It is pointless to "tease" me as a schoolyard bully I won't cry, run home, or develop feelings of inadequacy. If you want what I have, I can give it to you aaaalll day. I just don't want what you have.Interesting. when someone claims a relationship with an Invisible Super Being you don't know - they are smug.
Perhaps this may answer your opening question?So what makes you smug??? Obviously it has nothing to do with forces outside yourself. And THAT is what answers my OP. Hot button topic Jesus is the reason I may boast, and be satisfied within myself. And your reason???
Right - you are pride filled and boasting. Once again going against what you claim to be following. Was not aware I was smug - that is your word for the person claiming to know an Invisible Super Being that you don't know.
You were asking why your religion attracted negative comments.
Hope that helps.It only helps you to cement in your opinions. I KNOW that it is what you count on. I am smug in Jesus. I am sure, without a shadow of doubt.
You are also smug for sure. Hast thou deceiveth thine own self??? Your smug, however, is all about YOU and all your knowledge. I don't mind at all though. You have your own path. You argue with me, why??? Because I boast in my lord??? Argue away.I am not arguing with you - I am trying to get you to understand why your beliefs and behavior cause so much friction and conflict in the hope that you will stop. You asked a question on this thread and I have repeatedly tried to answer it. You ignore these answers in favor of pride and boasting.
If you wish to burn in hell for the sin of pride and boastfulness - that is your business. I am more concerned with the here and now.It is funny that you, a non-believer keep ending up in Godly conversations. It is not to convince me, that box is checked. You come to be convinced. Deny all you want. We are not discussing the tooth fairy. Jesus is clearly the topic. And U come-a-runnin'
I see! You DID read the OP And once again you ignore what I said. I wonder if you read anything anyone says to you. We are not discussing Jesus, we are discussing your need to create conflicts.
You have convinced me all right.
Thanks.
"Vishnu I have no desire to get to know."
People do not want to know truth because that'll make them uncomfortable. And Vishnu is just a name, the people use.
"I am glad to say that without my God, I am lost, cold AND lonely."
As someone said 'if there is no god people will make a god to satisfy them". To satisfy your psychological needs you created a god, as you want it, and as the bible god was the only one available to you, you chose the parts you found appealing to you, and omitted that which is not to your liking. Do you know that your god is powerless against iron chariots?
"I have never even had an inkling of Vishnu. "
Better say, you never tried to study anything outside the bible(not even bible).
My God is better than your God is just too funny! That's like saying my gravity is better than your gravity. Thanks for the laugh.
Wonderful! I didn't even know you were present. The laugh is necessary. I'm glad to have given you such a treat
Remember the biblical, "my God is better than your God?" That snake was probably pretty full; but I bet he could have eaten more
How you liken it to gravity is much much funnier. Thanks for YOUR laugh. Much more entertaining.With a small difference- gravity is same for all(the force that brings the apple to the earth), while god is different for each person.
Who said God is not the same? It is our perceptions that make God this or that. Does not mean God is this or that.
The actual difference is gravity is real.
It might as well be. A 'practical' graviton detector would have to have the mass of about 100 Earths and still would only detect a single graviton particle every 12 years or so.
So I doubt we'll be building one any time soon
Google general theory of relativity. It's a nice easy read.
It's OK. I was joking. Studied relativity before you were born
Sorry - no. Gravity is not a matter of perception. Pretty sure it works the same for both of us.
Sorry I should have been clearer. Perceptions relating to God. You perceive there is no God. God is real to some. What God is and how God functions is subject to ones perceptions.
Our perceptions do not change the nature of God just as our perceptions do not change the nature of Gravity.
Take a look at someone who does not know gravity exists.....like babies...just because they do not know gravity exists, it still exists.No - god is not real to anyone. There is no such thing as a god.
Drop a baby from a fifth floor window and gravity will work the same for the baby as it does for me and you. Gravity is real. God is not - see how that works?You missed my point entirely it seems. Yes gravity will work that way if you drop the baby. But the baby does not know gravity exists, just as you do not know God exists. Gravity still exists regardless of the babys knowledge. God exists whether you believe God is real or not.
What does real mean to you, when you say God is not real to anyone?I did not miss your point, I understood your point just fine thanks. Just because I think it is nonsense does not mean I did not understand. Odd you need to make that assumption, but I find most believers choose to do that because they cannot be wrong.
Real as in "exists in reality." Real. God does not exist - no matter how hard you pretend it does.
See how that is not the same as gravity? Gravity being real?I realize you believe it is pretend and I understand since you do no know God why you would believe that. Little I can do about that. Just as there is little I can do about a baby not knowing what gravity is.
Your reality is shaped by what you hold to be true. Does not mean that these things you do not yet know of does not exist.No - my reality is not shaped by that. You have just contradicted yourself.
Gravity exists whether you hold it to be true or not. Try jumping out a 5th floor window and holding it not to be true.
Sorry - you are not privy to knowledge I am not, no matter how badly you need to think you are.Not sure how you see that as a contradiction? However, I will try and make it a little clearer for you. Perhaps it would have been better to use view? So, Your.. view ....of reality is shaped by what you hold to be true yet there are things in your reality that you do not yet know of that are part of reality that cannot be changed regardless of what view you might currently have.
Like the instance of the baby. It has no knowledge of gravity and gravity continues to exist whether the baby is aware of gravity or not. The four seasons will continue to exist and do their thing as the baby grows regardless of whether the baby is aware or not. Their functions do not rely on how the baby is shaping his/her view of reality.
So it is with God. God is not dependent on the awareness of humankind. Nor is God dependent on whether one believes or not. God will continue to function and exist the way God has always existed.
If your view of reality does not acknowledge Gods existence, it doesn't matter. Like the seasons and gravity God will continue to exist.
That is an argument from incredulity. The baby will eventually grow up and learn about gravity, that is, unless they get indoctrinated into a religion and they never learn anything.
So gravity has nothing to do with perception, because it exists to even thous who don't perceive it.
Gravity is an invisible force that can be detected and understood and is directly connected to time. God, we are told is also an invisible force, but cannot be detected and does not exist.The function of gravity has nothing to do with perception no. The awareness that it exists has everything to do with perception. Our awareness might say it doesn't exist but it doesn't matter what our awareness says, gravity will continue to exist. Same with God.
Radio waves before they were detected didn't exist either at one time. Yet they have always existed regardless of our lack of awareness.I can make up something invisible and tell you it exists, but we just can't detect it yet. Does that mean it's there. You are making the assumption God exists without first detecting it. That is not the same as radio waves because once humans thought radio waves existed they were easy to detect. Once we are aware of gravity, it's easy to detect. Some feel there is a God, but can't detect it. Not the same thing at all. Science is now attempting to detect the Higgs boson particle as we type. Still no God. Let me know when God has been detected, I'm all ears.
Scientifically God has not been detected. Internally for some through experience God has been detected. Since we are not scientific equipment it is never accepted. and our detection of God is dismissed. Does not matter. God that is not any one thing will be hard to detect even with the most advanced technological invention.
Humans have many experiences inside there own mind, that does those experiences real. The psychotic experiences many things that are not based on reality, would you take his word when he tells you he is in contact with an alien nation using gamma waves?
What psychotic experiences have you had? Can you describe the process? What God experience have you had?
See how pointless it is to go there?
No matter how articulate a description may be, until one has experienced whatever, one will never know what another is referring to. Look how Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha etc, etc all tried to describe their experiences and some of their followers still do not get it. Mainly because it is an intellectual understanding and not an experiential one.
In saying that many will dismiss an experience because they do not fully understand it. A limited mind has limits.
It's still dependent on the meaning of God. For Rad Man it means a creator, for genaea, a superhuman tyrant mixed up with a reminisced beggar who romped Judea and for me it mean neither.
For Rad Man it does not mean a creator. I'm not sure where you got that idea.
You yourself gave the idea. Look above, when I said god you jumped in saying there is no creator(similar, I do not want to go back to find the exact statement with my slow internet connection, which is near expiry.)
God is an invisible force? I don't know who told you that, for some that is a lie. Ever read 'ethics' by Spinoza?Hmm. I'd take the guess that he was using God as a creator in context to reply to someone else. Rad Man doesn't believe in a creator.
I suspect there is a language problem and it can't possible be mine because my ability to communicate is... well... but I don't think it's me.
I didn't say he believe in God, what I said is he meant creator when he used the word god.
I think you are having a problem with English. I take it it's not you first language. When I said there is no Creator, I didn't mean God is a creator. I meant there is no God/Creator. God or Creator both mean one who created all.
My perception is there is no God or Creator or any such thing.
When I said God is an invisible force, I meant that is what most are taught. I was showing the connection that Gravity has with God. Both you can't see, but gravity can be detected and God cannot.You didn't read me correctly, what I said is you use the word creator as a synonym of god, that's why your 'god/creator'. God doesn't mean creator, though for some people it is synonymous.
Most are taught so because it is easier to present god as an invisible skydaddy and is satisfying to the common people. What is used to satisfy the masses and to an extent control them, may not mean that is correct.So - what is your god then? He didn't create everything?
No Mark, he didn't create anything. In fact he is not a 'he' (person).
At this time I can give you only a hint, ethics by Spinoza .Why can you only give a hint? Do you not know yet because you only half way through a book? A hint, give us a break. What do you think we are all going to gather around in anticipation?
Because, most people will call me an atheist because it doesn't go with their idea of god. If I want to make other people think or see what I say, I should not go and tell them they are wrong(which makes them resistant to what I say), but instead should find a common ground and discuss.
Right, first you want to lie to them to gain their trust.
I do not lie to them, I know there is a god and that is the common ground.
You haven't read Spinoza nor Bhagavad Gita. Neither you know what god is[ or is confused (God, creator, fairy, Santa and so many terms interchangeably used, as if all carry similar meaning, while each has a different meaning).]All those words describe fairy tails. None describe reality so I can interchange them to describe fairy tails. All these fairy tails are used to manipulate people into a certain behaviour therefore I can interchange them.
Are you sure Rad Man?
A fairy is a small winged human like creature that has magical power, usually depicted as a female.(and it is tale and not tail)
Santa is an old man with a beard in red clothes. But it can also mean a person dressed like that, who brings gift to children especially during X'mas.
Creator is anybody who can create, not necessarily universe(but from the context I take it as universe).
God can mean creator to some(e.g. Christians), the unmoved mover who didn't create anything for some(Aristotle), the universe for some(pan theist)...
God doesn't mean creator for the last to groups.Yes, I'm sure.
I did type tail instead of tale. Opps. I'll be sure to point out your next error.
I said nothing of a fairy. I said fairy tales (meaning a type of short story that typically features folkloric fantasy characters, such as fairies, goblins, elves, trolls, dwarves, giants, mermaids, or gnomes, and usually magic or enchantments).
I think you meant to say gifts with an s. It's okay it happens to all of us.
I know the story of Santa, and it's not much different then the story of God. Both know if you are bad or God and both live forever.
I also understand what that word means.
Again, why do you continue to think I don't understand the language. If at some point I said creator instead of God, get over it, move on.
You appear to be fabricating your own version of a God to fit you own ego, you are not the first to do so. But please spare people the details.It is not because you made an error I pointed it out, you made the same error before too. You said you are a better communicator than me and I agree. A good communicator should not make errors and should be clear. You cannot blame the listener, if he misunderstand you, if you are a good communicator.
I do not say I am perfect, what I am willing is to correct myself.
Again, it is not because you simply said creator instead of god. I too agree there is no creator. God is different and you talk AS IF you do not understand what it means(you reply with prejudice, you take god as a person).
I am not the one who invented pantheism, neither am I the one who wrote Bhagavad Gita and you now sound like ganaea who does not (want to) hear that which do not fit her pre-existing notions. And I can say the same about you, you deny god to satisfy your own ego(as if repeating 'god doesn't exist' give you some psychological satisfaction) but say there is Dark matter(which is merely an assumption to make the formulas fit the observation) which has no evidence as well.
You is looking for Pinocchio. Arguing about Pinocchio for weeks now. That says NOTHING to you???
I'm confused. When did I say anything about Pinocchio?
Show me where I lied. It's not very Christian of you to cast the first stone, but go ahead and show me where I lied, but if you can't then you lied by calling me a lier.You are trying to maneuver the conversation so you can say, "You aren't much of a Christian." That is what I call petty and trifling.
No, she called me a liar. I want her to show me where I lied. I have never told her she was not a good Christian. I've never told anyone they are not a good Christian. Is it Okay for her to call me a liar? Because she is Christian I can't hold her to the same candle?
Good one. Did it take you while to come up with that one?
I have to say nobody in these forums has ever told me to grow up before. They may have thought it, but they didn't resort to it. I'm all grown up thank you, I no longer believe in fairy tales.
I was talking emotional development. It is hard to have a meaningful adult conversation with all of this ad hominem stuff you are flinging around in a weak attempt to spur a reaction.
What are you talking about? My question wasn't even directed towards you. I didn't ask you for any conversation.
Like I said, "I got this handled." I know how to deal with this, and I already got my fasting in when I ran out of food stamps.
Nope, I was trying to find out where you think I lied. Have I ever implied you were a bad Christian?
You are beating a dead horse. Let's get back to a meaningful discussion of the topic at hand. What did you think of the story?
No "God" for you! Yess??? You have stated it many times. Yet, you argue the point for weeks. May as well be talking about Pinocchio, yes??? Fairy tale? "And Im'ma gonna prove it!!!"
You are arguing about God/Pinocchio. You do not see that??? Too many trees???Slow down, mam. I've got this handled. I think Rad Man is reading right now.
When I met the Lord, I wanted to go to Bible college. I got offered a scholarship to North Florida Bible institute for missionary training. My church shot me down ("we don't see you as a preacher"). I never made it to Bible college, but I've been to Calvary.
I've been here before. I don't banter with demons. I send them back to headquarters for further instructions and reinforcements. Watch.Interesting that your church shot you down after being offered a scholarship and you think you can send me send me back to headquarters for instructions. Grandiose delusions is a term you may be familiar with. I decide when a what I read. I've read the bible thank you very much and have not found it discusses the history of human nature as you described. I just had a quick flip through and found no chapters pertaining to the last two thousand years or any chapters pertaining to anything before about 6 thousand years ago.
1) People make mistakes
2) I didn't say anything about sending you to headquarters, unless you are a demon.
3) Example:
Now it was after this that Absalom the son of David had a beautiful sister whose name was Tamar, and Amnon the son of David loved her. Amnon was so frustrated because of Tamar that he made himself ill, for she was a virgin, and it seemed hard to Amnon to do anything to her. But Amnon had a friend whose name was Jonadab, the son of Shimeah, David’s brother; and Jonadab was a very shrewd man. He said to him, “O son of the king, why are you so depressed morning after morning? Will you not tell me?”
Then Amnon said to him, “I am in love with Tamar, the sister of Absalom.”
Jonadab then said to him, “Lie down on your bed and pretend to be ill; when your father comes to see you, say to him, ‘Please let my 'sister' Tamar come and give me some food to eat, and let her prepare the food in my sight, that I may see it and eat from her hand.’”
So Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill; when the king came to see him, Amnon said to the king, “Please let Tamar come and make me a couple of cakes in my sight, that I may eat from her hand.”
Then David sent to the house for Tamar, saying, “Go now to your brother Amnon’s house, and prepare food for him.”
So Tamar went to her brother Amnon’s house, and he was lying down. And she took dough, kneaded it, made cakes in his sight, and baked the cakes. She took the pan and dished them out before him, but he refused to eat. And Amnon said, “Have everyone go out from me.”
So everyone went out from him. Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the food into the bedroom, that I may eat from your hand.”
So Tamar took the cakes which she had made and brought them into the bedroom to her brother Amnon. When she brought them to him to eat, he took hold of her and said to her, “Come, lie with me, my sister.”
But she answered him, “No, my brother, do not violate me, for such a thing is not done in Israel; do not do this disgraceful thing! As for me, where could I get rid of my reproach? And as for you, you will be like one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, please speak to the king, for he will not withhold me from you.”
However, he would not listen to her; since he was stronger than she, he violated her and lay with her.
Then Amnon hated her with a very great hatred; for the hatred with which he hated her was greater than the love with which he had loved her. And Amnon said to her, “Get up, go away!”
But she said to him, “No, because this wrong in sending me away is greater than the other that you have done to me!”
Yet he would not listen to her. Then he called his young man who attended him and said, “Now throw this woman out of my presence, and lock the door behind her.”
Now she had on a long-sleeved garment; for in this manner the virgin daughters of the king dressed themselves in robes. Then his attendant took her out and locked the door behind her. Tamar put ashes on her head and tore her long-sleeved garment which was on her; and she put her hand on her head and went away, crying aloud as she went.
What is the diagnosis? Human nature!Where is the HISTORY part of the human nature?
And you said you didn't say that? You were referring to me and you asked her to watch.I feel like I am teaching 7th grade. History - this was written by an ancient scribe of the King of Israel. It is valuable, because there are few such documents of the time that have been preserved from any civilization. It is not wise to "blow it off". Think of your own experiences with love and lust. Things haven't changed much.
Sure I said that. It was not in reference to you, unless you are a demon.You seem to have Grandiose delusions. You think you can teach me something, Oh wait you just edited you post to delete the part where you school everyone.
I don't think you know what "Accurately describes the History of human nature" means. It may describe human nature, but no the History of human nature as you described. The History of human nature would have described how human nature has changed through time.
You most certainly were referring to me, hence the "watch" as you just sent me to read something and the "I know how to handle this".Here we go again with the petty and the trifling. Let me give you another example of how the Bible is a reliable source of teaching on the history of human nature.
"I set my mind to seek and explore by wisdom concerning all that has been done under heaven. It is a grievous task which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with. I have seen all the works which have been done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and striving after wind. What is crooked cannot be straightened and what is lacking cannot be counted.
I said to myself, 'Behold, I have magnified and increased wisdom more than all who were over Jerusalem before me; and my mind has observed a wealth of wisdom and knowledge.' And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind. Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain."
That's historical, too.
I see others are showing up, now. Sorry I can't stay. Someone else can do the job, it was a pleasure doing business with you.Nothing to do with Human nature or the history of human nature. The history of human nature would describe how human nature has changed over time. Once again, the bible does talk about human nature, but not human natures history. Is it an historical book? Yes. Is it historically accurate? I don't think so, to many inconsistencies. Does the bible talk about as you say "the history of human nature? No, to do that it would have to describe human natures history. You may want to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx's_the … an_nature.
Slow learner.
No thanks, I never follow links left by kooks on the internet. The next thing you know, your computer starts deleting files, or ex-KGB agents steal your Google clicks from a basement in Estonia.
Karl Marx? Groucho was the better mind.Yes, I can see you are a slow learner, so I'll try to slow it down for you. Let's see if you can understand the term "history of human nature"?
What a dipwad. WD (Chip) Curry 111 out! C-ya HubPages. This is no place for a real writer.
Please stop. Do you know what "the history of human nature means"? People have always been people. Evil, ugly, nasty people. In the very beginning, human nature was recorded in disobedience. And it perpetuated. And still exists. Human nature is not new. We think we know stuff now, but human "nature" has not evolved. Eat, kill, lie, sex, eat. Homosexuality aint even new. What do you mean human nature history???
Blessed are they who believe w/o seeing. Now if you don't believe that, why fight against it so? It just makes you cry and cry and cry. Why can't you just IGNORE the name of Jesus??? Oh!!! I know
Ewwww, lust and incest....was that acceptable in the days?
Clearly your implication was that I was lying about something, hence Pinocchio's nose growing. Do you think I've lied about something?
Exactly!!! But I was never fooled. I know God when I hear him.
The common ground here is biblical principle. It was established from the beginning. I have no qualms with different opinions. I just don't let them in. Truth to me, is not the same truth for you. You need to start a thread to discuss your Vishnu. Though I will not join in YOUR discussion.
Here we discuss Jesus. For me, he is the truest truth. Not one soul here is GOD- free.
They come to argue his non-existence. FUNNY
You discuss and debate and negatively emote because you "don't" believe??? I believe we got somebody here who knows all about cognitive dissonance. "If you deny, it makes it untrue"See, that's what I'm talking about. Your truth works for you because it get your subconscious what it wants.
Ah - the god that doesn't exist. Same as mine then.
So it's Spinoza's "report" that you believe??? Have it your way; it is your right
I use a lot of words to relate to people who believe in God. To me there is no God or Creator. Please don't tell me what my perception of God is and I'll give you the same respect.
Rad Man, it is the perception you gave when you substituted creator for god when YOU replied, I didn't invent it. I can only infer from the words you use.
I guess I should have used "tooth fairy" or "santa". I use those words as well to describe fairy tails.
Heard of pantheism? There is no Santa there.
And why you get back to a 'person' when you hear god.
Wow, not only is the perception of God different for each person, but the way other people perceive God is different for each person!
Which means that it doesn't really matter how you perceive God, it only matters how I define how you perceive God!
Genius!Correction, "it only matters how you define how you perceive God!", otherwise it will be a guessing game. But owning a crystal ball might help.
But you defined genaea's perception of God differently than she does. And she's pretty clear about how she perceives God. That doesn't require a crystal ball.
That's why I told you to read the previous posts. I only used what she told me. If I create a 'straw' god and argue against it, all she has to do is, say that is not what she said.
And you do not see how confused you are. Look above and read your post again
Saying murderers love their victims, is confusion, and I am not the one who said that!
"The common ground here is biblical principle. "
The same principle that allows slavery and murder and incest. That is not the principle we are following now.
"You need to start a thread to discuss your Vishnu"
I am not here to discuss Vishnu and I told you that, so why bring it up? Confused?
"Here we discuss Jesus. For me, he is the truest truth"
Yet with full of contradiction which you attempt to mask.
"They come to argue his non-existence."
History points that way though!
"You discuss and debate and negatively emote because you "don't" believe??"
Not about beliefs, but your own contradictions.
"We all have our right to an opinion. Wanna hear mine???
You haven't yet said how a murderer love his victim?
"So it's Spinoza's "report" that you believe??? "
told that will give him a hint, but to understand what I said, needs education.
"She did NOT say that the bible is corrupted."
Claire Evans wrote:It appears to indicate corruptionand far from a representation of God.
Who knows who much of the Old Testament was further corrupted when the Jews were captured by the Babylonians in 597BC?
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/105128? … ost2250098Now you sound like a drone.
no God, is somewhat like no interest, right? You came to discuss the common ground??? Then say the bible is full of lies??? What kind of common is that? It just does not make sense that you claim my statements to be contradictory; nor that you don't see that most of yours are.
God allows foolishness. Why? He knows. He allows you to tell blatant untruths w/o slaying you. he allows foolishness. He does not like it. But it IS allowed. You cannot see that?
You attempt to cloud and twist. Aren't you tired yet??? You cannot sway me in the least. I saw you coming Jesus is the reason for this conversation; God's character is found in him. You find fault. So be it. Why do you need ME to hear your objections repeatedly??? You sound really, really, really "inexperienced" You ignore my responses only to make it appear that I am running from your questions. It is just a silly way to "discuss" our "common" ground.Genaea
"He allows you to tell blatant untruths w/o slaying you. "
You says bible is true, right?
According to the bible God drowned and killed many people(Noah's flood)
According to bible he allowed slavery, and allowed even to kill a slave.
According to the bible he allowed incest.
According to the bible he has emotions like anger and jealousy, which are part of being an animal.
According to the bible is all powerful, yet According to the same bible he is powerless gainst iron chariots.
Is any of these wrong?
If not, How can you say that a person who kills love those whom he kills? This is the question I want answered and you refuse to answer.
"you came to discuss the common ground?"
The only common ground is god. The god whom you say allows and do heinous crimes against humanity in general and against his son in particular. In the past barbaric tyrants are worshiped as gods, but that does not make them god. From the characters you describe as that of your god, it seems he is a barbaric tyrant. What makes him not?
"God's character is found in him'
So is Jesus responsible for the same crimes?Oooohhhh!!! You are not totally stupid; you are just not listening.
You need, a CERTAIN response (childlike) ...Kills those he loves??? "YOU" are the one who said that to allow is to actually do it. But you are wrong. God did not "torment" Job. He condoned it (condone meaning in this instance allow, NOT SAW AS HARMLESS) Afterwards, Job's life flourished because God "rewarded" him for his faithfulness throughout his ordeal. You do not understand that, but that is ok. I will give it to you another way.
The bible (that I fully believe) says that "the wages" (that means penalty unless you want to use the "common" term payment) of SIN is DEATH!!! In the OT. People paid the penalty (or better yet received their "wages" for the SIN they committed). The Lord told them what the "payment" was! That never changed. The penalty for sin is STILL death however Jesus paid that penalty ONE TIME for those who trust and believe his word. Those people no longer pay that penalty. Though death is ASSURED for all of us, God's children will meet him in the air from death. Not be dead no mo
Get it??? In the OT, people received the "wages they EARNED" for the sin they committed. But death and death are two different things in this instance to die is promised. But to trust God means life abundantly AFTER death. Are you with me???I was NOT asking about JOB, I was asking about the people who were killed in the flood at the time of Noah.(if he wanted he could have sent Jesus earlier.
I was asking about the thousands or millions who DIED as slaves.
Suppose you have child and you see him being ill treated by a bully and you could have prevented it. Will you chose to prevent/stop it or will want to give toffees to the battered and bruised child later?
Even in case of job, will making him the mightiest and endorsing with scores of children forget him the loss of his first born if he had loved him?
And in ot there is no mention of life after death but only immortality and if I remember correctly only one or two got it and all including Moses, David and Solomon died. And it is the same OT that says God is powerless, god behaving like an barbaric tyrant who is over emotional and god bringing Jews from Egypt to Egypt (Cannan was under Egypt).
Then, is Jesus god? if god how can he die?
If not how HIS death bring US respite?
Why your god failed to provide a more human and less cruel way?Haaaaa-Haaaaa!!!
you don understan penalty. (In my best 3rd grade voice)
From what I understand, God saw no good in the earth. He had no mercy on sin then. No love lost for the sinful. Sorry. He probably should have asked you first, but, since you wasnt here, he went on ahead without you and wiped the earth clean, and started again with the one faithful lot. But!!! All hope is not lost he put a rainbow in the sky to prove that it will never happen again. Fire NEXT time. We "all geared-up" NOW, aint we??? Penalty?
So why Jesus died? How HIS death absolve MY sin?
Why didn't he do it before that he could save those poor fellows and animals?
He should have me asked first!! He made a blunder first which he regretted(a god regretted!!), so he killed all, then he later found that too was a blunder and killing will not solve his problems, so came himself as his son, and got himself killed.
So is he so fond of murder?
"without you and wiped the earth clean, "
Out of pure love I guess!! And from that godly love came torture, slavery, adultery, incest....
You see, if I am the president of America, and if I allow slavery, either I am immoral or I am complicit in that crime. And a crime is a crime even if done by god. Your god is behaving like a modern day politician who preaches but never practices.
"he put a rainbow in the sky to prove that it will never happen again."
Once is ok, next it will be boring. Again he need to be reminded? A god cannot remember what even a nursery school child can do?
Next fire? Again out of love? Will you burn your child for doing something YOU ALLOWED?
Madam your god is really a pathetic figure, in our country, if anybody behave like that usually we put him behind bars or give him drugs to cure him of his condition.What? Do you have your chronology straight?
If God created you, why would He have to ask you? Do you ask the paper you write if it is okay with your decisions?
The flood came first.
Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say Jesus regretted dying on the cross. If you see where it says different, please let me know.What are you actually trying to say??
"If God created you, why would He have to ask you"
That is what she said. But it was a good thing to ask me, if he didn't know killing is immoral.
"The flood came first"
So what?[did god regret before or after the flood?]
"Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say Jesus regretted dying on the cross. "
Who said that?
Are you drunk?So you pick and choose the parts of the bible that are not corrupt? You will have some, but only a little???
You referred to some kind of regret. Your comment was extremely rude. Are YOU drunk???Are you getting more and more confused?
" So you pick and choose the parts of the bible that are not corrupt? "
That was Claire.
" You referred to some kind of regret"
Haven't you read your bible? Before the flood god 'regretted'creating humans. Are you replying after reading, it appears you replied without any idea what I talked about. I never said Jesus regretted about dying, what I said was he managed to get himself killed.
" Your comment was extremely rude"
Which one? Twice before I told him to check what he replies to, so even if I'm rude it's ok.
" Are YOU drunk"
It appears you are the one who is confused or cannot understand questions, so why are you asking me?Again, YOU are confused. In this post, you responded to three persons.
I don't mind, as I said before, I understand your confusion. But don't throw stones. Your house is glassy. Who is this Jesus?
God or
part of god
or son of God?
So far you have only said you have faith in Jesus, god murder and god loves and Jesus is not part god.
The last time I checked murder and love are opposite human emotions.Well, it "probably hurts him more than us" aint that what PARENTS always say???
Question is,
is Jesus full God?
Part God?
or No god?Jesus reigns with God. He is on the right hand of his father. He cannot be on the right hand of himself. He is God in Spirit. They agree seamlessly. Good???
Not good.
So you say Jesus is not god nor part of god, right?
Jesus is somebody who sit on the right 'hand' (did you mean side?) of god but not god.
What do you mean by god in spirit?
Jesus simply agree with god? So is he like Michael or Gabriel?
Why did god sent this puppet to get killed?He is the cornerstone. The foundation. He is the firstborn of many. He is God, because God said so.
He was given FULL authority. So he is definitely lord over us, his children.
I feel so warm from these words. He is my everything.
Thank you for letting me get that out. You want me to repeat that??? Pleeeeeeeezzzz?I want you to repeat, but this time do it slowly and do it after thinking what you are going to say.
A post above you said Jesus is not god.
Now you say Jesus is god.
So is Jesus god or not god?Did you read? I explained the entire point. Why don't YOU try READING SLOWLY?
You explained? Then I'm afraid your keyboard is not working, for I didn't see any explanation.
So is Jesus god or not?
You said no first, then changed it If you still stand by YOUR NO then,
Is Jesus an angel?
or just a human?Because you TOTALLY DISREGARD my responses, only to ask THE SAME QUESTION repeatedly. It is some kind of sick and twisted game of, "Please let me make you say something that I feel I can pounce on so I don't have to be scared"
its kinda funny. But why ask a question and disregard the response many many many times? Something is unclear in your mind. But, you cannot get me to walk with you. You don't know where ya goin' "But why ask a question and disregard the response many many many times?"
Because you simply are not responding to the questions, you reply to some questions you made up in your mind.
Here,
Genaea wrote: 1) Go loves human
2) God murders human
My reply: Both are CONTRADICTORY. Hope you understand the meaning of contradictory.
Jomine: Will you kill your children
Genaea wrote 1) are they obedient children?
2) Never
My reply: In your first answer you implied you would, if they are not obedient. So I asked you whether it is out of love that you would not kill your children, you didn't reply.
genaea wrote: 1) Jesus is not god
2) Jesus is god
My reply: They are again contradictory. Either Jesus is god, or he is not god.
if he is not god, Is he an angel or is he a human?
The "many" are those who follow him. The cornerstone was the first stone laid in construction. He is the greatest!!! God wrote almost a whole book about him, and saved it for centuries for each generation. Wrote some Psalms about him. Gave him all power. And he is alive and pleading for you daily.
What do you mean by 'First born'?
As far as I know, first born means the first child of a parent. How can Jesus be the first born of his followers? The firstborn follows his parents not vice versa.
What is the construction you are talking about?
Which is the book written by god?
Where are the psalms about Jesus, especially by God?
And where is it written where god says Jesus is God.
Where is it written that Jesus agree perfectly with God.Jesus states specifically, his relationship with the father.
Again you are mistaking the question,
I am asking where it is written where god says that jesus is god,I searched everywhere, in NT god only says "he is my son, not he is god.
I searched too. You are right. OK, God did not "say" so, But he implied it when he made him to have power over death. See, this is foolishness to you and you wish not to understand it. Why do you ask?
Now it is implied? You specifically said jesus is god because god said so, now you say it is implied.
Gaenea, no person can understand contradictions. If you want to follow jesus or god, you first have to understand what is said. You are the one who says you understand jesus, and that is why I'm asking you.You remind me of another "head-gamer" I know and LOVE.
You rain questions of strict compliance and expect me to strictly answer. Yet, it is so obvious that you don't even WANT the information that I have. Nevertheless, in the very post you resonded to, I acknowledged the mistake that I made. You are not being fair. You pick one piece of the puzzle and chew on it like a pit bull.
God cannot feed your hungry soul if you do not trust him.
You can question until you are blue in the face and you will never be satisfied with all of your answers. The Lord did not ask us if it was WELL with us to conduct his business. Just as your parents probably did not consult you as to how they should run their house. Yet, you lived with them, you obeyed the rules, or you were punished (or so it is with many American households). Consequesnces are a part of your very life. Choose which consequences you want.
Jesus was not his father God. However, he agreed with him. They agreed so seamlessly that they were interchangeable in spirit. There is also biblical scripture stating that once husband and wife are joined by God in marriage, they become ONE FLESH. Hmmm.... I know that is a bit much to chew in one sitting. So chew on that for a lifetime.Contradictions, half truths, misrepresentations, misleading talks, unintelligible words and sentences will not feed a hungry soul.
It is through words humans communicate and understand each other. When you used all the above, why you accuse me of not understanding?
If jesus so agreed, why he broke the sabbath?
And agreement will not make one the other.- He was showing the nosy people the misconceptions that they had. Didn't you get that? The people are not for the Sabbath, but the other way around was what he said after they confronted him. He saw their arrogance. He called them on THEIR foolishness. And he established to him that he was the word of God.
You said jesus is in perfect agreement with god. According to god, anybody who work during sabbath to be put to death. In that he is contradicting his father. I am not contesting whether he did the right thing or not.
This too takes a spiritual mind to understand. Our father God gave the ISREALITES instruction on how to run the church. He must've saw some fit to threatening the travelers in reverence to a day that he set aside. However, when Jesus came, there was no longer a need for death for the children of God. Their Savior was HERE.
gives ME goosebumps
FYI... There was also a curtain in the temple that was no longer needed after Jesus died. It was all set up perfectly.
Sometimes it appears Genea likes to play mind games and does not appear to want to clarify much.
Here I'll help you out if you like.
John 10:30
Then read
John 14.11
Then read 14.20 Tends to make what Jesus is trying to say more clearer in my view.pennyofheaven,
It is not whether jesus said, it is whether GOD said.If you put it that way then God said nothing that came from the bible.
Gaenea first told me Jesus is NOT god, then she told me Jesus is god because god said so.
She first contradicted herself and then told a lie, I was merely asking for clarification.That's a common occurrence with Genea unfortunately.
Wowwww!!!! The lie is in me saying that Jesus is God because God said so. Now, there is not a direct quote, as we have already established, but I have realized that God and Jesus agree seamlessly. So, there you have it. If Jesus said it, God agrees. Lie, is no lie. Jesus said that he was God, and I believe that he meant in spirit.
"Told a lie" was "HER" favorite phrase!!!
Wrong again
see??? The question was about what God says about Jesus... You are on the wrong page. Though head games are fun for those who attempt to play with me, but after that...
Like I said mind games. Who inspired the bible? If the bible is the word of God what must you be meaning?
For sure the bible was inspired by God and that is why I feel that corrupted is a rotten term for words so precious. But we were looking for a quote from God that Jesus was God. Mind games are evident. But I am not the player. But I can play!!!
I posted quotes from the bible. In your words the bible is God inspired. At other times you have declared that the bible is the word of God. Either it is the word of God or it isn't. Either it is God inspired or it is not. If it is, you do not need to look further than the quotes provided. If it isn't the word of God then since nothing is supposed to be added you will never find a quote saying that.
I suppose it can be the word of God when it suits your agenda.You have confused yourself again. Ok, I don't mind, let's take this slow.
God inspired the words in the bible. You are not understanding quote??? That means that we were looking for a passage that says, My son is God like me... or something like that. Are you with me? Your scriptues said nothing of the sort. They were quotes from the son, not the father. Are you with me?
Add???? Whatever do you mean?What's hilarious and disturbing at the same time is that hard core believers don't need anyone else to cause conflict in the world, they can easily produce it with each other.
Who's got the popcorn and the underground bunkers?You assume too much. It may pay to know what you are talking about before making outrageous observations like that.
True, what I'm observing is outrageous, so why do you believers keep causing conflict, even with each other?
I can safely assume you can easily fall in the same category as the believers you mention. As you are not that specific. So you can probably answer that question yourself.
You seem to believe there is no God. You seem to believe I believe there is one. Your beliefs are as you believe, not how it might actually be. Do you not see now it pays to know what you are talking about?Yes, we who are forced to endure the threats from Christianity are completely at fault.
Playing the victim card, again? Are you feeling oppressed because you are no longer free to burn me at the stake for my disbelief?
Yes, I know believers still don't fathom the concepts of thinking and understanding, and that their entire worldview is based on a belief system, a result of childhood indoctrination.
Of course, I just have to read your posts to observe that.Like I said you need to know what you are talking about. You believe I am a Christian, you believe 'believers' don't fathom the concepts of thinking and understanding and their entire world is based on a belief system, a result of childhood indoctrination.
Can you not see everything you stated is a belief system in itself. You are very entertaining, thanks for the laugh.You provide gobs of evidence for my point in so many of your posts, just as you do in this one.
It is still a belief system you are operating from which makes you a 'believer'. Since you did not state what kind of believer you were referring to, anyone can fall into that category. It therefore makes sense to include yourself in your own statement.
The gobs of evidence that you perceive as evidence then comes from your own parameters of perception and not necessarily what is. It might surprise you but I am not a Christian, I am not an atheist I am not an 'ist' of any kind. I just am. You can put me wherever you mind would like to put me, makes no difference to me because it will be only in your mind that it will be so.Safest answer I have heard all year. Neither hot, nor cold.
Haven't ever really seen it up close. Anything can possibly "go?"
Usually people have an opinion one way or the other. Interesting.LOL. Repeating yourself over and over does make something true.
No, the evidence is in YOUR posts, what YOU write.
LOL, there's some of the very evidence I refer. Funny, how I can go into your post history and your hubs and find gobs of evidence for your belief in Christianity. No surprise there.As you believe it is just how you believe it. I can do little about that.
Faith is a personal greatness
Faith is a gift of God
Faith was,is ,will be gaining God's approval
A " one " without faith, can't make decision of how much and what's all abou the " other " have close relationship with God .
" a two way opinion "Can you clarify your statement. I am not sure I am getting it.
@ pennyofheaven
Yesterday , my answer tou you has been sent, still isn't showed : is there any fault .Ann attempt to, has been sent, now still missing would you like to see another one ?
@ pennyofheaven
Hallo, again.
Faith is a personal... using " greatness " denotes unusual or considerable in degree, power, intensity highly significant or consequential . You have faith ( everyone) available " ...the measure of faith God has given to you." (Rom.12:3) Personal choice to activate whenever need/want -- that's why personal -- because no one is there when activated , manifested above our ability to describe . Apart of our natural "nature", ( supernatural) .The results of faith involved, follows as permanent impression/change, experience and " you" know that what happened as well as the ONE , the giver of the faith .
A one without " faith " means denial to activate the " gift " to get the results of the faith in action .
Would be ridiculesly unfair to discuss faith of one by the other who never been " there" when faith works. Disagreement leading to humiliation and calling names woul be bellow human dignity.
Thus being " there" I'm ... Being convicted, certain in reality , it's personal often bigger than my knowledge , wisdom or intellectual domain; it's embracing --seazing the truth.
It's coming out of relationship with the "SOURCE ".@
pennyofheaven
How nice of you. You've encouraged me to work harder, to understand the questin directed to my subject and to be in agreement . You're a blessing . Thanks
God inspired the bible...The bible says I and my father are one....(not to mention the other quotes)...So Did god inspire that or not? Did God say that or not? I am assuming no, because you are continuing to look for a passage that says God says Jesus is God. Which you will never find.
I mean God said it. Do you have anything constructive to add to the conversation? Are you the one who likes to quote Jung? I don't know much about Jung. I find that interesting.
We are done with that. In the beginning... and God said, let there be light. May we move on now? Show's over
you missed most of the scenes.
Clearly I have no idea how you have perceived my post because I don't think like you. Do you want to explain what you meant or no?
Sorry, I don't feel like playing silly head games.
This seems to be a common occurrence with penny, unfortunately.
If I knew what that meant, I might agree with you. Since I don't I know what it means and the poster doesn't wish to explain. I have nothing to say
Then, why do you not use it to get information?
No, are you?
All I know is that when I read your posts, they often don't make sense to me. I'm going by the impressions I get from what you actually write. If your reaction is to insult me, fine and good bye. If you want to correct my false impressions, I'm more than willing.I had or have no intention of insulting anyone, if so, that would never have been my reply.
You enter in between the conversation and ask me things I haven't said or is a reply to some specific response, so will make sense only to that person, unless you read at least two or more previous posts, which I asked you to do twice.
And the ones in inverted commas are the other person's statement/quotes to which I was replying.
I have never said Jesus regretted, what I said was 'god' regretted, and that is from OT, before Noah's flood.
I''ll restate once more what I said.
God made humans.
Then he regretted it as a mistake.
Then he killed all humans.
Then when he looked he saw them as sinners.
From his past experience he knew killing was ineffective.
So he came as his son to get himself killed, so that he can forgive the sinning humans.
And my question was, is god so fond of murder, even to kill his son/himself(in which case it is suicide) and the mass murder of humans?I think I understand you better now. I have looked at previous posts, I really did.
The point about Jesus "killing Himself" (which I don't agree is what happened, but...) is not that simple. You have to go back to the OT and the animal sacrifices (which were still being practiced even after Jesus died and rose again. They weren't stopped for good until the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.) God said that the life is in the blood, and for certain sins blood must be spilled to atone. That blood was animal blood. But no number of animals could ever really and truly atone for sin, especially if God really does want everyone to come to Him, even Gentiles. And He does. And human sacrifice is specifically prohibited in the Old Testament. So what could be sacrificed that would once and for all atone for all the sins of humanity?
God.
But God is not a human like you and me. So He had to come to earth in human flesh in order to make the ultimate sacrifice and atone for sin once and for all. And the God/man had to come back to life to show that death has no power over us.
It's a lot more complex than that, but that's the nutshell.Do you realized just how primitive and silly this sounds? The savages who started the practice of sacrificing animals were ignorant cavemen. This is where this practice came from...a useless and brutal practice, thought to be pleasing an invisible imaginary deity.
Because abject ignorance continued right up until a few centuries ago, those claims were readily accepted. In this age of VAST informational sources, there is no excuse for uttering such stupefying nonsense.
You cannot insert yourself into the pages of a fairy tale, then actually explain it in a way that makes any sense.You're right, you're right, you're right.
Heck, Paul even predicted pretty much that very response in the Bible.
Yet, God still exists, and He's not a fairy tale and He's not a delusion and He's not a psychotic reaction.
Go figure.Hardly a difficult prediction is it?
"Go around preaching impossible nonsense and people will tell you it is impossible nonsense."The most truthful and honest reply you have ever submitted.
You mean the con man that started this foolishness. Of course he would say something like that. That's to reinforce his nonsense for brainwashed blind believers.
There is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER TO VALIDATE YOUR STATEMENT! Therefore your claim is absolute nonsense...dishonest...a lie...untrue...false...invalid...fraudulent...psychotic...absurd...dismissed.
You cannot insert yourself unto the pages of a fairy tale, and pretend that your life is in consensus with fiction...and mindlessly pretend to others that it makes perfect sense. You are bound to run head on into reality. Then you must abandon reason, and resort to dishonesty, which you have done repeatedly.getitright? That's a misnomer. You are pretty fiesty. What's the beef?
And you wonder why your religion causes so many conflicts?
I heard it is laughable and sad at the same time.
So I heard.......It seems like your religion is the one causing conflicts. Why worry about what someone else believes? As long as you aren't being dragged to the alter for a human sacrifice, it shouldnt bother you. Live and let live.
Or, burned at the stake, or tortured to recant their non-belief? Why didn't Christians allow others to "Live and let live"?
Oh yes, we now have laws so they no longer can commit such atrocities in the name of Jesus.Is someone trying to burn you at the stake? I let you live. Hey, I'll have you over for a BBQ. Don't worry. You won't end up on the grill.
We have laws for that now. Had it been some centuries prior, yes, Christians would.
No evidence, yet you are so sure. What a blind fear of authority this indoctrinated nonsense causes in its victims. Reminds me of another psychotic delusional character, foolishly and childishly believing that there is evidence where there is none, whatsoever. It is you who's FUNNY! Hilarious!
OK, for real now, WHY are you here getitrite? You have voiced your brain many times on the subject. Why must you stay to tell the "crazy" people that their "fairy-tale" is not real??? You scared it might jump on you??? It is the worst case of denial that I have encountered in a really long time.
You seem crazy. Listen to this:
Aint no Pinocchio. What? You can prove it? Prove it then. See, no Pinocchio.
No such thing I tell you. EVERYONE AGREES THAT PINOCCHIO DOES NOT EXIST. There is no cosmic information to confirm it. See, I told you!!! No Pinocchio. Prove it then.
I don't give a hoot about no Pinocchio. Nor his followers. You jealous???
“The point about Jesus "killing Himself" (which I don't agree is what happened, but...) is not that simple.“
I’ll tell you a story, please bear with me, I’ll be brief.
There was an old man with two blind sons with extra ordinary talents. Once the old man was in need of some money and went to the king and asked for it and placed his sons as security. The king gave money and employed the sons and found that they were in fact talented(I’m not going into the details). When the old man came back theking asked him as the father of two talented young men he should have some talents too. The old man replied that his talent is in identifying the heart of man, their character and family by looking at the faces of men. So the king asked the old man to look at his face and tell his character. The old man looked at the kings face and said “you have the heart of a butcher, your family is that of butchers.” The king jumped of in anger and then killed the old man and his sons.
Q: Who is responsible for the death of the old man and his children. I’ll come to it later.
If I know my friend is going to betray me, and if I know If I go to a place the people would kill me, and if I still keep that friend and go to the place, I am responsible for my death and I’m committing suicide. It is the same as walking over a cliff by knowing that I could die by falling of the cliff. I said ‘killed himself’ in that sense.
Ans to the question: The old man is responsible for the death, for he knew the character of the king and by answering without foresight he brought death upon himself.
“animal sacrifices”. “So what could be sacrificed that would once and for all atone for all the sins of humanity?
God.”
Here again, if I’m the one who is to forgive, I’ll be the one who decide the terms. My question was fairly straight forward, Why god chose the habit of ancient barbaric races, blood sacrifice, to forgive. Why he wanted his(or his son’s) blood to forgive humanity. As the one who is going to forgive why didn’t he choose simply to forgive? Why the dramatic effect which is absolutely immoral to the modern man. Being a god, he should know better, and should set a better example.'absolutely immoral to the modern man' is a very important phrase, I don't think you realize how important. You also said that if you were the one to forgive, you will decide the terms. Yet you don't extend that same logic to God. If God is to forgive, then He sets the terms. You can accept or reject that forgiveness, the Bible makes clear that not all people accept it. But God is the One who is forgiving humans for their sins against Him, so by your own logic He is the One who sets the terms. I've said over and over that modern man has a difficult time with this (many modern men were finding it difficult when the First Century was the 'modern age'!) but these are the terms God set.
It's difficult to break some of this theology down into small bits, but Jesus was fulfilling a role that had been laid out for Him centuries before He was born. The OT has the prophecies. This is why I'm unwilling to say that, even within the very narrow parameters you've established, Jesus committed suicide. Sacrifice and suicide are not the same thing, we don't say that somebody who gave their own life that others could live committed suicide, we say they made a sacrifice. And that's pretty much what happened.Yes I said if I'm to forgive, I choose the terms.
The question is why an all knowing god chose the method of all barbarians, not civilized men's- of blood sacrifice and ultimately his or his sons death, to forgive?
Why god chose to forgive by getting himself killed? wasn't it a little theatrical to get himself killed to allow him to forgive.
If I want to forgive the terms are for the one to be forgiven. Either I ask him something or nothing and forgive. I''ll not ask myself to be beaten to forgive the other. But if it is me I need to forgive, but god is supposed to make no mistakes.This the question I've asked many times. The best answer I got I believe was from Chris. From what I understand people from time to time need to show/prove God that they love him and the only way they could do this was sacrificing something that they cared for or needed. So they kill a goat, but don't eat it to show God their devotion. At some point our sins were so great that God sacrificed a part of himself (Jesus). People are supposed to feel his lose deeply, hence he was our sacrifice.
If I got that wrong please correct me Chris.
A few things come to mind.
One would expect God to know our devotion as he should know everything. Does he not listen to prayers?
It is forbidden for people to sacrifice people, but not for God. Seems like a contradiction to me. Do as I say, not as I do.Ultimately what you're saying is that if YOU choose to forgive someone, then you set the terms of forgiveness but if GOD chooses to forgive you, then you still set the terms of forgiveness.
Forgiveness is something that the person doing the forgiving does. The one being forgiven can demand it, but what they receive is not really forgiveness. It must come from the heart of the forgiver or it doesn't mean anything.
Now, as to why God chose the way of 'barbarian man', that's a whole hub or series of hubs in itself. But that's the way God chose. And your comments about Jesus committing suicide and God getting Himself killed lead me to believe that you don't really understand what the sacrifice is about, and why it is a sacrifice in the first place. That's not meant to put you down, I've been studying it for twenty five years and I doubt that I fully understand it. It's difficult to understand. But the first thing that is necessary to understand is that God is not a human being, and we can't understand everything He does.
How many times did I use the word 'understand' there? Think I set some kind of record?The terms are for whom? Just suppose I want to forgive you. Will I beat myself to forgive you? Either I can ask YOU to get beaten and forgive you or simply forgive you. Neither will I ask MY son to get beaten to forgive you, if it was your son that make sense.
If it comes from the heart, then whatever you do, I forgive you WITHOUT any terms. You did some wrong, and I forgive you UNCONDITIONALLY.
And why god want his son's blood? To let himself from not sending you to the hell HE made. There is no sacrifice, instead of simply choosing to forgive, as you say from the heart, he did an atrocity on himself/his son. Mere theatrics that might impress a barbarian, but lunacy for a civilized one. God is supposed to be civilized and above petty human politics.I would have answered you genaea, but you have no idea what you are saying. You say something, then in the next sentence you contradict yourself by saying the opposite. So when you say contradictory things, and you yourself agree what you say is nonsense(that came with out the help of brain), I cannot understand you, nor am I inclined to believe you.
That makes no difference to me. Your opinion is tainted by self. I have read you repeatedly elevate yourself above even God. Therefore, you surely think nothing of me. But that is not important. You haven't the slightest clue what you are in agreement with, at least I haven't read that.
You interrogate as a trial attorney who is hungry for a mix-up; so you find one. You gnaw and gnaw because of your discontent. And you rationalize until you miss all spirit. That is expected. Contradiction is merely the "reap" of your questioning. You cannot hear the truthful response, because you are focused on discovering the wrong one.
Oh, and thanks for "not" responding, it helps.If you feel you must. But what will you prove? Let's see...
That you do not use brain hence do not understand and what you are doing is quoting what your local priest told you.
genaea wrote: You are more out of touch with truth because your brain is in the way.You do not understand still
It is foolishness to you. You cannot get around this fact because you think too much. You think the wrong way. It is cute that you seem to be trying to make it appear that my statement meant one thing when you probably do not understand it at all. I was saying that you use the wrong type of thought for things of the spirit. Find the definition of carnal. You may be able to piece together why your thought patterns do not yield good spiritual results. You are very carnal in thought. This type of thought runs parallel to the spirit realm. This is what I mean but I still do not expect you to "get" it. Carnal minds cannot become familiar with the things of God. This thought finds ways to even become BETTER than God.
It's not too late. Think spirit.
Look up carnal. You may see your picture.Hilarious, the believer must extoll the virtues of their magical thinking and superiority complex by tossing out derogatory remarks.
You know derogatory when you hear it don't you??? I toss out nothing. My remarks are reflective of the tone of the conversation. And I can't allow your magical thinking and superior complex to cloud the issue at hand.
Evasion as usual?
or is it because you cannot understand?It is not evasion. It is Godly sense. You elevate your morals and standards above God's on a regular basis. I guess you probably would be a better leader. But wait. Then you would have to direct even peoples thoughts. Puppets would be the result. God does not want that. He wants us to choose him despite any reservations about limited knowledge. Even the common senses that you use to condemn God, come from partly-read/understood scripture as well. You do not know God because you prefer the lie as well. But you are still a good conversationalist. I enjoy talking to you. Your answers are always so well thought out. It is so apparent to me why spirit and human common sense does not work well together. With God all things are possible. The human mind cannot fathom that. It is limited. You and your friends like to make it seem as if I have equated Godliness to foolishness and that is cute!
so I won't bother that, but the truth is the truth and you cannot get it because you have preferred the lie. Not surprising, aint lie one of your favorite words? Are you telling me you have godly sense or are you telling me contradiction is godly sense?
Elevating above God's morals? It is not my fault that YOUR god have such pathetic morals. Even Jesus said entirely opposite things to your god.And the present world has entirely different morals from your god, and that is the reason why you still can write after you have written Jesus is not god.Jesus is not God the father.
The father and son agree so seemlessly, (Hi 666!) that they thought the same thoughts. It was not until you started trying to make the OT punishment times match up and align to the NT liberty of Jesus, that you found your so-called contradiction. God punished harshly for sin in OT times, most likely as an illustration of how harshly he considers sin to be.
Once his time had come, he brought forth his "better" half He allowed us to see his character in Jesus. He wanted his people to know him personally for themselves. Jesus connects each of us who love and depend on him directly to the father.
Not mentioned thus far, is the fact that most of the so-called contradictions are not that important. To you it is, because it confirms for you, YOUR "faith." I mean reasoning and common sense.
I have said this earlier, if you look for contradiction, you find it.
"But why would your so-called supposedly all knowing God, allow there to be contradictions? Surely, he is SMART enough to convey his so-called messages without so much confusion." (Yeah, I heard you)
Well, maybe he knew that those who wanted to know him would have faith enough and trust him enough to know him. I mean, I understand him perfectly. But, I spend a lot of time with him.
Do you remember the scenario I gave a while back about you trusting your parents to run their affairs without your approval or permission, when you were at an age where you were totally dependant, whether you agreed or not?So there are more than one god?
Then why the while the father insisted on stoning to death those who disobey sabbath and do adultery, jesus said the opposite?
God asks not to eat pig, while jesus say anything can be eaten, contradiction?
So is it one or two gods?
If he punished harshly in the old why he decided to repent? And why there is nothing in OT to suggest he would repent? Why he was partial to isrealities while the whole world is his children? Why he killed unborn children and young innocent children? Why he allowed them to be sold in slavery? What was their sin?
You just chose to believe those people who said bible is god’s word without using any reason or logic. I you were born a muslim you might be arguing for allah instead of yahweh.
"
If he wanted anybody to trust him, he should be consistent. Will you trust a man who consistently contradict himself?
“
And do you remember me asking whether you will kill or sell to slavery your children who are unable to think for themselves?
"
Since you spent lot of time with him, you might be able to do great things. What was the great thing you did? Did you catch snakes or resurrected the dead?
John 14:12 & Mark 16:17-18 said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shall he also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Jesus did not contradict the Mosaic Law. A lot of people want to see it that way, with the Old Testament seeming to be all about punishment and the New Testament seeming to be all about love, but if you read them you find lots of love in the OT and plenty of punishment in the NT. Jesus Himself stated that if people did not follow Him, they would go to eternal punishment after they die.
Yes, the modern world does have different morals than God. Entirely predictable and entirely predicted. Does that mean that God is wrong and the modern world is right? And if so, why ?
Jesus did not contradict old law? Yes jesus said he came to fulfill the law and not a word shall be changed from the law, yet the same person said that sabbath is for man while in OT death, the same would have met with death.
If we take OT alone there is no contradiction, there is only ONE god not three or one in three. God is severe, he just killed all men, condoned slavery and rape, he is partial and only helped the Israels. Jesus I'm not sure, in between he call non jews, dogs and still helped them.
For old god all punishment was here on earth, no eternal punishment, while for jesus all punishments are after death, that way both are severe and unjust.
But Jesus was supposed to be sent by god out of love to mankind. If god want to forgive, as you put it, from his heart, he should simply forgive.
Wrong and right? A cannibal was raised to eat men. For him it is not wrong, while we abhor that idea. As time progress, as we became more and more educated, our morals changes. We became compassionate and see other humans as our brothers. The old god just followed the morals of the jews of that time, while the new one followed that of his time. If they were real gods, there morals should transcend time.
Don't forget, he will not be burning up his children. Just like the last time
He will only be wiping SIN away, like last time. The SINFUL will be in the lot. The sin of the FAITHFUL will be forgotten.
He loves us all, but if we do not choose his way, his hands are tied. He allows (condones) our free choice. He does not demand a yes. He is fair and just. You will be HANDSOMELY paid for your services. How??? Depends on WHO you serviced.Are you confused?
Last time god MURDERED people by creating a flood. You said next time it would be fire. Now you say it will just be a 'washing' of sins. What is it actually?
Faithful to whom?
The God who came as himself or the God who split himself and sent a part
or the illegitimate son(not god) who contradicted his father?Awww...
You are confused alone on this one. Yes, the flood murdered all upon the earth, saving for the family and the animals. The Fire is coming next to murder the sinful. Sin will be wiped away from the earth then; once the sinful are gone. You have to ask Claire about the split-God thing.
God the father is the one of whom you speak, trust him only. Or don't. He does not appreciate "lukewarm".I''ll make it as simple as possible, for you to understand.
If YOU love YOUR children, will YOU kill them or sell them into slavery?
A simple yes or no will suffice.Are they obedient children, or defiant and stupid as hell???
There you go - true Christianity. Is that what Jesus said?
It's YOUR children.
Will you kill or sell into slavery, YOUR children?NEVER!!! ...now someone else's...???
We just made my point. Thank you for your participation!!!So you won't kill your children.
So can you sell them as slaves?
Is it because you love them?
or is it because you are afraid of the law?
Will you kill anybody else's children?You just will not give it up, huh?
I am not the one to ask this very detailed question. You are trying to "herd" me into a corner. You have not clearly seen that I will not go?
God's word is true. I cannot stress that enough. You did not read my extended post on the PENALTY for sin, that is still in effect even unto this day? I can say no more. You lost this argument more than 2000 years ago. We wrestle in vain. Well you... Unless...What are you afraid of?
Are the questions too much for you?
o.k., I''ll ask one by one.
Is it out of love that you won't kill your children?I see where you are going. And I will NOT be behind you. YOU, me
You wait in vain for your "magic gotcha words". You are trying to "make a case" against the bible? Hmmmm... God loves his children. It hurts him to see them turn away from him. But he promised consequences, as any loving father would. He is preparing a place where sin cannot go. Only those covered by the blood of Jesus will see it. Without God in life=Without God in afterlife. Yes, I know that it is a scary thought and I used to tremble about it too. But then, I read my bible. Not only did I read it, but I asked the father to show me what it all meant. I was scared. But I knew how to approach. When I actually sat down to read the words of the Christ, I was floored. Over and over again.
To your constant question, God allowed the very brutal murder of his very own innocent son. He took the penalty. Why??? Read. Ask those you trust to explain it. Ask God. He gives the knowledge of him to all liberally. Faith asks. Faith receives.You are answering your own questions not mine.
"God loves his children
God kill his children"
Do you know the meaning of 'contradiction'?A dead horse is a devout christian who when confronted with an inconvenient question, replies to some other question or say nonsense and simply repeating the same in the hope that the questionnaire will go away.
If you do not kill your children out of love, why do you say god love and murder?
God either love or murder, you cannot have both.
Which is it?God can have whatever he wants. Who are you? Where were you the day he created Vishnu?
You don't even know what YOU wrote?
You replied to my comment made to Chris Neal and confused me with Claire, and when I replied you say I'm replying to 3 persons.
From the replies you provide, I'm getting a feeling that you are not understanding but simply replying with some answers.Try and think of it like an egg.
An egg is one unit. Take off the shell and you have the white and the yolk. If you separate the white and the yoke, they become two different things but are still considered the egg.
So we can say that God and Jesus were separated like the white and yolk but they are still one as in the case of the egg. Put the white and yolk back together it "returns" to being a full egg as in the case of Jesus returning to the Father after His ascension to heaven. Think of that egg as the Holy Spirit. That's the concept of the trinity.So, which came first, the chicken or Jesus?
No Claire. You made that up to satisfy something else. God said , at the baptism with John; "This is my son..." They are two entities. Jesus said that he was going back to the father. He did not mean, the "mother" pod. It sounds like foolishness when you try to make people believe God split himself in two to come to earth and kill himself. You have the story twisted. Jesus was not insane. He asked his father to allow his "cup" to pass (meaning the death part) then he conceded to the will of the father. "Not my will, but yours." They were two, but agreed like one.
Claire Evans didn't make that up. It is a bad example that is often used.
As I said, they were two entities on earth. The mother pod? Jesus did not kill Himself. He was put to death by people.
There seem to be references in the Bible that indicate Jesus is God:
John 10:33
33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for a blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
Acts 16:6-10
New International Version (NIV)
Paul’s Vision of the Man of Macedonia
6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. 7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. 8 So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas. 9 During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10 After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
We can see here that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are interchangeable. If Jesus is separate from God, then is the most high Father not the Holy Spirit?
It really does seem to be a bizarre context but we are talking about God. It is the mystery of faith.In your first instance; they were doing what most of you are doing, arguing over "words". He said that if you saw him, you saw the father. To me, that was definitely spiritual. And cannot be thought of carnally. He AAAAAAAAND his father are the same in spirit. We all, in the body of Christ, have it too. However, we only have it through the blood of Jesus. He said that he was going unto his father. He spoke of his father often. And he spoke of their relationship. Now, since you are Christian, you have seen a Christian wedding. Have you ever heard the preacher read the verse about God joining man and woman and they shall become one flesh??? Do you think that they mesh together actually? Like some sort of egg/yolk mixture? Please say no.
As for the spirit of Jesus????? uh.... could it be the SAME spirit that "he left with US" before he went unto "the right hand" of HIS FATHER? Can you sit at your own right hand? (That reminded me of the I'm my own Grandpa song)
Wow Claire, I think I answered this earlier, but I am just now returning, so you guys bear with me while I respond. I go from where I left off. I don't like to miss the conversation.
This egg is fried.
God and Jesus are one being? NO wonder they think we are crazy, if that is the perception. Split himself apart, prayed to himself, and returned unto himself??? Have you read the bible?Jesus said He had the Father are one. As I mentioned, it is a very hard concept to understand and it doesn't make sense to me, either, but this is God we are talking about. It doesn't make sense for a dead man to resurrect and then start going up to the sky when He ascended.
I will tell you that I believed the way you did. Someone managed to convince me otherwise by the John passage.
And quite frankly, people think Christians are crazy anyway even without me.Yes, crazy, is a badge I wear proudly for my father.
I have no idea of the reason for making the difference of "my father and I" if a more honest answer would be I am one. I am here and I will save you from your pitiful selves; then I will go back to my throne.
Meaning is only relevant to the perceiver. Each will have different perceptions of God and the meanings will then differ accordingly. Your statement illustrates this point well.
Sorry, gravity is not constant. Einsteins theory of general relativity has proven this as well as every experiment ever done on the subject. And the reason why the perception of God is different for all is because no God exists and we all make up our perception of reality to get us through life. Some don't even need one.
Perceptions of god is not constant because there is no God
Gravity is not constant because there is no gravity, is that what you meant?
"Some don't even need one"
Before deciding whether you need one or not, you have to decide what it is.No that is not what I said.
Gravity is not constant because of it's interaction with time. Google Einstein's theory of general relativity.
People's perception of God changes to satisfy their ego. Their perception of God will make them feel good. Hitler's perception of God led him to kill Jews as a payback for killing Jesus. He felt he was doing the right thing and he would be rewarded by God for doing so.Interesting! Hitler did all that mess in the name of Jesus??? First I ever heard of that.
Anyway, if that was his reason, he ignored God when he said, "I will repay" lots of people do that. But that can never be attributed to God. He gave instruction in that; not his fault that many don't listen. People have their own agendas. Hitler did what he wanted to do.Really? I'm quite sure those quotes from Mein Kampf were indeed presented to you and others here. Perhaps, you're not reading peoples posts?
I do remember answering that mein kampf was outside my realm of knowledge. I didn't know the two were related. Also, if you mean the loooooong list of quotes that I inly got halfway through, I only got halfway through. I can't read posts that are that long. Too time consuming. I do read posts; I know YOU know
Here you go:
"The anti-Semitism of the new movement (Christian Social movement) was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge."
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief."
"I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's work."
"Today Christians ... stand at the head of this country... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past ... (few) years."
- Adolph HitlerDo you see that he does not speak as Jesus did??? He is no follower of God if he does not follow the works of Jesus. Hitler operated on Hitler's behalf, not God's.
He thought he was.
And are you saying that you have been speaking as Jesus did?Good answer.
Hitler brought in his nonsense about him being a Christian to garner public support. Didn't Bush say the same thing? That he was guided by Christ to invade Iraq?
So you're saying that Mein Kampf is the sum total of what Hitler said and we can only trust and believe what is contained in it's pages?
No. These are Hitler's opinions. Clearly he thought he was doing God's work. And the mostly Christian Germany did not disagree with him. Nor did the Catholic church. Nor - to be honest - much of Britain, which was also mostly Christian. If he hadn't invaded Poland when he did, I doubt we would have intervened.
It's not quite that simple, but yes, that's pretty much a matter of public record. It's known that Hitler indeed admired England and wanted to avoid war with them, even having English movies in his library, the ones where the British were constantly beating back the upstart Indians. Of course, featuring blue-eyed Brits in dark makeup (not unlike when Birth Of A Nation featured white men in dark makeup.)
The very same philosophy was taught to Italians of a certain generation. I grew up in an Italian neighbourhood and witnessed the hatred of the next generation many times as well as talking with my father in-law who grew up in war time Italy.
Chris, the problem is you or others like you don't get to say who is a Christian or not. There are many interpretation of what it means to follow Christ. Hitler thought he was doing just that, his interpretation was addressing his own ego's wants as do all others. As I said earlier, a tele-vangulist has no problem collection huge sums of money from the gullible even though the teaching of Jesus was clear that the rich have a harder time getting into heaven. The tele-vangulist get's what he wants and he's fine with it.We're actually dealing with two or three different questions here. So let's deal with them.
1) Who is a Christian? You're absolutely right that I don't get to say who is a Christian. In fact, as I've said before, many people who believe themselves to be very good Christians indeed will stand face to face with Jesus and find out exactly the opposite. And yes, I've said that often. And I've often pointed out that I do not exempt myself from that.
2) Do I (or "others like me") get to say who is and who is not Christian? Yes and no. Obviously there are multiple interpretations. I've certainly been arrogant enough in the past to think I knew who was and who was not a Christian. I hope I'm more mature than that now. But by the same token not all interpretations can be equally right. You can't have both New Age-oriented or Gnostic Christians be right and also have conservative Evangelicals like myself be right. I know that plenty of people think both groups are wrong, but for the sake of this discussion that does not come into play.
3) Was Hitler a Christian? If you've studied Hitler at all (and I have) then there is no way you can say yes to that question unless you either are a member of the Christian Identity movement or just think that anybody who states they are a Christian is evil, insane or both and so what better example than Hitler? No, I don't think it's quite that simplistic but it's not too far from that. We could literally fill a book with all the time I've spent showing why Hitler was not even a self-considered Christian, let alone could be considered one by someone else. To wit:
* Yes, he did say in Mein Kampf that he was Christian.
* He hated Jews and had the Bible rewritten to make Jesus Arryan, and repudiate His Jewish heritage.
* He signed legislation to start demolishing Christian churches, which was only stopped because Germany lost the war.
* He co-opted all churches and had swastikas placed next to crosses, eventually he tried to have the crosses removed and swastikas put in there places. He succeeded in many places.
* He threw church leaders into prison, even executing Boehoeffer, if they dared to disagree with him. He thereby placed himself above Christianity, and Christ.
* He believed in reincarnation and evolution. Strange, but true.
* He said often that you have to lie to people, and the bigger the lie, the more they will believe it.
* Hitler and his cabinet started a program to bring back the Teutonic knighthood. The PRE-CHRISTIAN Teutonic knighthood.
* Nazi celebrations often included specifically pagan practices including fertility rites.
Those points are literally matters of public record and don't require much time or effort to confirm. A little more debatable are statements he supposedly made about Christianity being diseased and the Bible being the most abominable book ever written.
So the answer to number three is an emphatic NO! Adolph Hitler was in no way Christian.It's my understanding is that he had a problem with Catholic Christianity and it's hierarchy. Just because he wanted to change the Vatican doesn't mean he did not THINK he was a Christian. I assume you don't agree with Catholics and their pagan practices as you consider yourself a conservative Evangelical. We can't say that because Hitler wanted to change the Catholic church he was not a Christian.
Just because one is evil doesn't mean they are following their own interpretation of the bible. Think of the Italian mafia. They somehow sleep at night and show up for mass on Sunday morning. It doesn't make all of Christianity evil, it only makes individuals evil.As a practicing Protestant and student of Hitler and WWII, I've never, ever heard that Hitler's problem was specifically with the Catholic Church. What I've heard and read is that he hated Christianity, in all it's forms. Catholic and Protestant, made no difference. He hated Christianity and wanted to end it. I don't doubt that he made specifically anti-Catholic statements, I won't even ask you to prove it I'm so sure he probably did. But a man who made specifically anti-Christian statements, regardless of denomination, does not think he's a Christian. Hitler was many things but i don't believe insane was one of them.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the second point. Of all people, I would not say that Christianity is evil.Where have you heard and read this? Let me guess - Is it the same place where you "heard" there is contemporary evidence of Jesus outside the bible? Best case scenario - the church was a competing political party. None of them at the time stood up to him. All them good Christians started shoveling Jews into gas chambers across Europe. Protestant and Catholic alike. 'Bout the only time they agreed on anything.
God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work...
Anything that helps to create this sort of event is evil.BBC
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
Various biographies of Hitler and Boenhoeffer
Hitler's Cross by Erwin Lutzer
Hitler Secret Diaries. Not certain about the quotes, but it has footage shot at Nazi rallies that clearly show pagan fertility rite-inspired happenings.
Sorry, you were saying...?Why, or why, do so many intelligent people not want to do the in-depth study of the rise of Naziism? The history of anti-Semitism in Europe (and America for that matter, but neither Britain nor France are in any way exempt) are well documented. The history of Christianity in Germany is well documented, and how so many German Christians started confusing Christianity with patriotism when the two are clearly not interchangeable. The German love of rules is well documented. The poverty and deprivation after WWI. The resistance of certain church leaders and the price they paid. Hitler's hatred of Christianity and plans to literally wipe it out in the Third Reich. If there had not been Christianity in Germany, people would still have pushed Jews into the gas chambers. T4 would still have happened. Then what we all pin the blame on?
Odd - I have indeed done an in-depth study. There was minimal resistance by Christians. By far the over whelming majority went along.
Why oh why do seemingly intelligent people accept any lie if it supports their irrational belief system? The support of Nazism by both Catholic and Protestant churches is well documented.
Go ahead and provide some reputable links that show Christianity opposed Nazism, because I think you have been duped. Now - were there mitigating circumstances? - yes, but the truth remains and people such as yourself denying it in order to protect their irrational beliefs are somewhat distasteful.
Did the Holocaust happen? Are you a denier of that also?
Although - I think it is fantastic that you know what would have happened on an alternate timeline. Did god tell you that into your head as well?
My response will depend on one very simple question, do you really think, and are accusing me of denying the Holocaust? In your heart of hearts.
You told me there was masses of contemporary evidence of Jesus and now deny the Christian involvement. Both of which are untrue.
I have no idea where you draw your lines - that is why I asked.Fair enough.
I don't deny the Holocaust, nor do I deny that many Christians were involved. I'm sorry, I can see how I might have given that impression.
What I do deny is that Hitler was a Christian, even by his own admission or understanding of himself. In my zeal to make that point I can see where I wrote things that give the impression that I believe there was little to no Christian involvement in the Nazi enterprise. For that I apologize. The complicity of many churches is well documented. There was an actual phrase used in Germany at that time, I forget if it was German Christianity or Patriotic Christianity or something like that, which by and large equated being a good Christian with being a good German, even to the point of putting the country before your God. I know this is hardly unique to Germany, but at that time it played a very strong factor in the ease with which the Nazi's took over. The group of Christians who resisted Hitler was indeed relatively small but not inconsequential. But they were the minority, not the majority. Even many Christians who had doubts about Hitler or what he was doing chose to remain quiet out of a sense of patriotism, and later fear of the Gestapo, rather than voice their religiously-founded thoughts.
There is a story that is famous, at least in evangelical circles, of the German church that was right next to a rail line that took prisoners to one of the concentration camps. Many of the people knew who was going and what was happening, but they didn't dare say anything. As the story goes, every Sunday morning during worship, when they were singing hymns, a train would go by. The people were frightened, but they just sang louder to try to drown out the noise.
I don't deny the Christian involvement nor do I attempt to lessen the extent of complicity. But the Christian religion is not the cause of the Holocaust.
Christianity in Germany (1933-1945) has, since the Protestant Reformation, been divided into Catholicism and Protestantism.
Wikipedia:
Historian Steigmann-Gall argues that Hitler demonstrated a preference for Protestantism over Catholicism, as Protestantism was more liable to reinterpretation and a non-traditional readings, more receptive to positive Christianity, and because some of its liberal branches had held similar views. These views were supported by the German Christians movement, but rejected by the Confessing Church. According to Steigmann-Gall, Hitler regretted that "the churches had failed to back him and his movement as he had hoped." Hitler stated to Albert Speer, "Through me the Protestant Church could become the established church, as in England."
Hitler stated before a crowd in Munich: "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."Thanks.
It's still not quite that simple, but I appreciate the information.
That's what I'm getting at. Your idea of God fit's with your own ego. It lets you get what you want. For instance, take the typical tele-vangulist. The teachings of Jesus clearly state the poor get in heaven before the rich, but the tele-vangulist doesn't see this and thinks it's okay to take money from old people to support his jet fuel cost. He's getting what he want through his perception of God and the gullible let him do it.
I've known many Europeans who were indoctrinated to hate the jews because of what they supposedly did to Jesus. My father in-law grew up in war time Italy under Mussolini and share the hatred towards Jews.Hate messes you up, look at your father-in-law.
When you let go of your ego, it is then that you find God. He does not work in "self". "Self" works through him. Therefore, when people do NOT believe in God, it is something ELSE that drives them. But EGO, they deny. But when you are deceived, you cannot see forest; too many trees.Nope, our sub-conscious is constantly trying to get what it wants. For most of us our conscious mind keeps some control over the subconscious. psychosis is when the conscious mind has given up. Our views on religion are driven by our need to satisfy our ego/sub-consious mind. Hitler read the same text as you do and yet his interpretation of those texts helped him in his pursuit of extermination Jews and taking over the world. Again the tele-vangulist gets what he wants from the bible as do you.
God is not driving you, that's your subconscious telling why it's okay to do certain things. People who are in greater control of the subconscious know and understand this. This is most likely the reason for so few a representation of Atheists in prison.There are so few atheists in prison because nobody really locks up white people. Look at the stats. Blacks, who are heavily Christian, have filled the prisons. Yes???
As for your other confusion, the psyche does what it wants, UNLESS... It has a certain standard. It should be controlled. The mind runs rampant if you let any and everything be entertained there. You can even start to believe that there is no God!!!
Do an experiment. Since you like that sort of thing.
Write down every thought you have, at the very moment you think it. If you are able to keep up with your pen; count how many times you have written the exact same thought.
You should find what you mostly concentrate on.
The bible says, "whatsoever things are just, pure, of good report", something and something else good ... "Think on these things." We CONTROL what we concentrate on. We CONTROL our own "realities".
You have chosen your reality. Your psyche has chosen to "be free". My psyche likes the "control". I do not understand why you do not understand your confusion. You don't really know nothin, that somebody else did not teach you. But you think that I am "the fool" because I believe one book for sure. Yet, you pick from this and that and hope there is a new development to read about. God can be depended upon to NEVER change. Though there is misconception about most of the old testament, He showed us his character in Jesus. We miss it when we look elsewhere. Look to Jesus.
Actually, it's more like his indoctrinated fantasy is better than yours. Thanks for the deception.
All you said is right but the reality is that Jesus was only the messenger of Allah not The God Itself. I hope you will research more on your faith and belief.
Jesus and God are different. Yes, I know. If I seem to interchange, it is simply because I know that they totally agreed. They are one in thought/spirit.
Hmmm. Does this mean that you don't believe in the Trinity?
Well, to me the trinity represents the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Three entities in one person, kind of. The three are separate. Joined by the same "cause/philosophy" for lack... "The cause" being the joining person (body).
Where are you?I'm a full-blown Trinitarian.
What do you mean "kind of."Noooo Chris!!! I waited all night for that???
gitouttaheah!
Please elaborate.
Three entities in one body. The "body" where there are many parts?
What does trinity mean to a full-blown trinitarian?Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Three Persons in One Substance.
Being different in office but not in Godhood.
YHWH, Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are all God. Although I don't get too hung up on names, I refer to them as God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.I find it funny that people say they don't get hung up on names, yet they all preach the incorrect name Jesus. The true name is Yehowshuwa.
There is no such thing as a trinity, that is a doctrine brought in by Constantine.
There is one Almighty whose name is Yehowah and there is one Son whose name is Yehowshuwa. The Spirit is Yehowah not a third person.
The spirit of Yehowah is what sustains everthing.What is even funnier is the fact that you guys can't even agree how the majik juju works.
I suppose atheists all agree on their mumbo jumbo.
We don't have any - sorry. That is the definition of the word "atheist."
Theres a little yellow man in my head!
I have got to find something to do.
I don't understand your question.
What is there where? If your asking if we think there is a God, we agreed there is no God, no creator, no spirits. Just a bunch of people on a planet.Play silly games, or answer the question. Show your stuff. What is there? How did you get here? Where are you going? What is it all about? Why do you exist? Do you even exist at all, or are you a figment of my imagination?
You're still not understanding. Someone has done a fine job indoctrinating you.
What is there? Nothing.
How did you get here? About 48.9 years ago my parents showed each other their love.
Where are you going? The beer store, but if you mean after death. Cremation I think.
What is it all about? Life you mean. Get my children off to a good start, be kind to people and enjoy life before I die. We are here for a good time not a long time, so have a good time the sun can't shine every day.
What is it all about? Avoiding pain.
Why do I exist? Refer to How did you get here above.
Do I even exist at all? I do know, but I won't in another 50 years, but I'll live in my children. I know nothing of your imagination.
You agree on what there isn't. Do you agree on what there is?
My friends call me Drive By. You should call me Mr. Quipper. Have respect for the greater mind.
The Trinity
Father
Son
Holy Spirit
see, three!The trinity doctrine is what they teach you in church, along with giving your soul to Jesus Christ, which is the wrong name.
The true name of the Messiah is Yehowshuwa.The Bible says that he has a name that only he knows. That is what I want to call him.
The bible says that the Almighty gave his name to Moses to give to the Hebrew people. And his name is Yehowah
His name is Mighty Counselor, Prince of Peace, Eternal Father, Jehovah Jireh, and a bunch of others, too. I want to call him by the name that only he knows. I don't think it translates well into spoken language.
Some things are too deep for words or any kind of language.
Ha ha ha. But you want to put a name to it. ha ha ha
You are slow on the uptake. It is obviously beyond your comprehension level. The name is already on "it". It always has been, and always will be.
Do you know what you're talking about? Because you're not making any sense. Perhaps it's making sense in some other form of language you claim to have, but you're making no sense in the written language.
Where I am from it considered poor manners, and a sign of improper upbringing to cast aspersions on another's religion, whether you agree or not.
If you want to get down and dirty with head games, you will lose. Answer my questions.
You seem confused. Is English not your first language?
You could have fooled me. You are dropping it all over yourself. Wipe your chin.
It is you who have failed to explain your position in a rational and sane manner All you have done is parroted the abject nonsense, fed to you via your ignorant holy book and your brainwashing through indoctrination.
If not for the world wide acceptance of these absurd beliefs, your comments would be relegated to the status of pure MADNESS!Give me a break. Save it for the tourists.
I don't think you comprehend your own statements. The bible states the name Yehowah over 6000 times. It is replaced by the word LORD in most bibles.
Are you confused? You responded to yourself in the post.
"His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."
Yes it three, no matter where you look into it.
You were exactly who I was thinking of when I said I don't get too hung up on names.
I find it funny that people say that the name is not important, and that it is the heart that counts. So why does everyone cling to the name Jesus, when it is incorrect. What is in your heart.
Jesus doesn't care about that. He knows who we are talking to.
Were you one of those people who don't have hang-ups about names???
It is like you are not listening even to yourself. We had this conversation. I told you that I don't know how to pronounce Yahoshea. I am not barred then, from speaking his name. I know him by Jesus. I don't really have hang ups about calling my God by name because when I say my God, he knows exactly who I mean.
No, they are one. Jesus is not a separate entity from the Father. Not only did He play the part of the Son of God on earth, He was God incarnate, too.
So who did he "pray" to in the garden?
Who was he tslking to when he plead on the cross?
Who did he say "sent" him?
He was NOT insane. He spoke of his father often. "If you have seen me, you have seen the father" was a term of agreeance. We are one. We are the same. It is more parable. (We have the same character, spirit, desire, heart.) we agree.They were separate on earth. However, as the Holy Spirit they are one. It is possible for God to "divide" Himself as the Father and Son on earth.
It seems weird but God is a supernatural entity and He is capable of anything.Now THAT is THE MOST strange explanation of the trinity that I have ever encountered.
Our God, split himself so that he could come here, pray to himself, die, and return to himself ok, I have got to let that one soak in... I'm in shock.
But now, it is much clearer why we NEED the written instruction of the bible. We as humans need a point of reference.
Jesus knew the penalty for sin. He announced that "the rule" had not changed. He was under authority to "free" the woman caught in sin. He came to bring liberty. He came to bring mercy. He came to die for sin.
My faith is in Jesus. My spirit says that the bible contains all that God wants his children to know about the many facets of his character. God's word does not change, we can count on that.
He used to kill about sin. He admonished his followers to kill about sin. He swept lands that he promised to the many wanderers (the treasures of the wicked are stored up for the righteous- they were his children). God will "take yo cookies" and give them to his children. He is powerful and his word is law. Death is the penalty of sin for those who don't believe. Jesus paid the penalty for those who do. That is scriptural. Jesus quoted some of the same scripture when speaking to the tempter on the mountain. "It is written..." was how he started.
It is one thing to rely upon the spirit within, another to call the word of God corrupt.
Why is it corrupt??? "Because it just does not make sense that God would do somethings so terrible?" But what about the dang penalty??? Should he have forgotten that he said that because some of the people HE MADE will be upset???"Our God, split himself so that he could come here, pray to himself, die, and return to himself smile ok, I have got to let that one soak in... I'm in shock. "
Now I am confused?
Are you saying your God, came here, prayed to himself, died, and returned to himself ?
If not, who is this Jesus?
How does his death absolve others?
Where in OT it is said about JESUS's death?"Why is it corrupt??? "Because it just does not make sense that God would do somethings so terrible?""
Actually what do you mean by god? A person who got the power to 'create humans' and kill?No offense, but it sounds as if neither of you have ANY idea of what you are talking about. That is the nature of delusion. Just how can you insert yourself into an ancient fairytale...pretend it's reality, and actually explain this in a way that makes sense? SHE CAN'T...YOU CAN'T!...thus, in all fairness, your assertions are equally bizarre.
In all actuality Hon, YOU inserted YOURSELF into a conversation about "fairy-tales". Now how's that for "nature of delusion"? YOU FIGHTIN' FAIRY-TALES
Then call ME crazy!!! I am really amused!!!
This is no fairy tale to me. I explain it in ways that are given to me. You reject before you hear any validity. But that does not affect me.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
I FASTED YESTERDAY!!!
It is really exciting to me that you said that. It took so long to do. This is my testimony. It is very much like a confirmation. That is the first time I ever remember that word being spoken in the year that I have read posts. Yes, I know it is not a "public" piece of info. But this is how my faith is strengthened. As soon as I was able, it is mentioned.
Sorry, I know that the piranha will swarm on this one, but who cares? God is real to me. - genaeaposted 12 years ago0
And sorry, I read from beg-end, so by the time I read your directive, I had already answered much.
One more thing.
"Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun.
I have seen that every labor and every skill which is done is the result of rivalry between a man and his neighbor. This too is vanity and striving after wind."
Peace, out. Gotta' go.When this reality is no longer sustainable, we will live, fulltime, in a fairy tale. At least that's what my bible says.
The reality of the natural world will continue to exist long after the vain civilization that you call reality is forgotten.
I am tired of dealing with farm league scrubs. Send in the first team.Thanks for pointing that out...but we already know that.
BTW, these insults are as pointless and lame as this sub-elementary logic.What insults? I was talking to your shepherd. Don't tell me this is the first team. I will save my chops.
Talking to imaginary beings is not a good sign. It is suggested that anyone doing so should seek immediate professional care.
How is jumping up and down in tantrum about a "fairy tale" viewed???
It's according to what degree we are talking about, and in what context. There is no need to throw a tantrum about Peter Pan. But when a fairy tale takes over the minds of the overwhelming majority of society, that is cause for alarm...especially when these people tell you that they literally have a personal relationship with a character in the fairy tale, and that this character guides their lives...and commands them to be ignorant of reason, and the truth, and to offend all others who don't share their psychotic delusion.
Ooooohhh!!! You are the world's protector from God??? You are the "common sense" police??? Somebody gave you a moral badge??? Lolothflr
you will not last. Sorry in advance for "moving" you out of the way.Yes I am the common sense police...and there are many more like me. Since your bible teaches people how to be totally immoral, it is a good thing that there are more and more people waking up to this insidious brainwashing that has been inflicted upon innocent children for generations upon generations.
Your beliefs no longer have carte blanche status, therefore, maybe in my lifetime, your beliefs will be relegated to the ramblings of the mentally ill and feeble minded, where they rightfully belong.
The future belongs to the rational thinker, not adults who believe in magic. If this mode of thinking, that you possess, persists, it could lead to the destruction of civilization. It is YOU who really needs to move out of the way... move out of the way, and let evolution proceed.
Delusion of grandeur , Grandiose delusion = delusional conviction of one's own importance, power, or knowledge or that one is, or has a special relationship with, a deity or a famous person
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Seems like the "verdict" is in!
Jesus is DEFINITELY "the hot button topic"
His words are sure. His life is apparent. And the sound of his name actually does "ruffle feathers"
I LOVE THIS LIFE OF VICTORY WITH HIM!!!You certainly do cause a lot of conflicts. Well done. Your master must be very proud of the ill will you create and the misunderstanding you display in his name.
I have to thank you - it was this sort of behavior that made me question your religion in the first place. They say they love you and are downright nasty? I wonder how many others you have pushed away? Odd your primary goal seems to be to "ruffle feathers," and display complete ignorance of the most basic things. Nonetheless - thank you.
I did learn something new though. I always wondered why you wanted to call yourselves sheep when sheep are extremely dumb creatures who get herded into slaughter houses because their behavior is so predictable. I did not know all you Christians think that sheep follow the voice of a shepherd. It appears your insistence in not reading any books does work against you. Now you know sheep behave as I have described - do you understand what Jesus said any better?
Baaaah!What else do you expect from a person who says love =murder(and slavery)?
Oh I have heard it all sadly. They will say almost anything to defend their irrational beliefs. Just look at the twisting and turning that went into denying how sheep behave. Eventually - geneaa had to say she knows what Jesus meant rather than what he said. Like House said:
Haaaaa!!!!! You still here???
and funny you are. Uh, I hate that I upset you so. But I gotta tell my story, Sir. I really do not mean to offend you with my parabolic mentions.
I promise. If you go to ANOTHER conversation. You will not be forced to read all about my savior from me this morning.You don't upset me. I just hate to see you causing so much conflict. You never say anything about your savior. You are simply defending your irrational beliefs. Never really seen you say anything positive to anyone.
You do understand about the sheep now though. Yes? No following a voice. Simply being herded.Wow! What kind of malarchy that was??? The entire statement was just downright deny. I do not mind. Deny all you want.
Can I talk to some people who WANT to talk to me please???I want to talk to you. I have been trying to answer your question all along - you keep ignoring what I say in favor of defending your irrational belief about sheep following a voice.
I have found that people get intimidated by the idea of a "higher power". Many people argue that you can't see him so how do you know he is there. My responce "look at everything around you and take a deep breath". I refuse to let people try to "convince" me that everything on this earth was formed through a soupy substance that was caused by rocks hitting the earth. If it did happen through a "big bang" then God was the one who caused it to happen that way. Jesus is the key to life. He put us on this earth to do his will and spread his word.
Religion is such a touchy subject with everyone that no one will ever agree. But no one should ever tell you that you are wrong because you do not believe what they believe, that's just not ethical or moral. Don't ever second guess yourself on what you believe.- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes unto the father (Claire) but by him.
What are you trying to say here? You saying I can't come to the Father?
No, I'm sorry. I was just pointing out that Jesus and God are not the same. Why would God have to say that his father anything???? He is the father. We have many biblical statements from Jesus that point to the difference.
Here are some scriptures to support my view:
Colossians 1:15-20
New International Version (NIV)
The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Here it is said Jesus is the creator of all things. Isn't the Father the creator of all things? The only way to reconcile this is to believe they are one and the same.
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24
Here are other scriptures that indicate Jesus is God.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11
...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
..the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? John 14:9
.. Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
And again, when [God] bringeth in the first begotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
Other:
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the FLESH, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, BELIEVED ON in the world, RECEIVED UP into glory."
--1 Timothy 3:16
"...CHRIST JESUS...being in the FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
--Philippians 2:5-8
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST: and THESE THREE ARE ONE."
--1 John 5:7
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htmDid you read the husband/wife script? Or is that part of the so called corruption? For it seems to me, that to say that their being one flesh would "logically" be???????
Please look at what you are saying, and listen to this. I and my husband "became one" on yesterday. Now, we are the same person!
I aaaand my father (key word, AND just in case you don't realize it) are one. We are the same person. Do you hear something strange? Correct me please, if I am wrong; but, usually in American language, when one says I and, that usually denotes a pair.
Our God, his son, and their spirits are all different entities that agree. (See husband/wife explanation above if you don't understand).You speak from the limited mind of the flesh again. (Biblically put) You are trying to associate God with things of the flesh and and as long as you continue to do this you will only ever see the surface. You will be safe riding in your self constructed boat on the surface of the ocean. But should that boat hit a rock and sink you will not be equipped to handle the depths of the ocean when you sink.
You are kidding, right? This lady is on fire.
I have no idea, but you can't be seriously accusing the lady of operating in the flesh.
If you knew the bible you would know what I am referring to. Since you don't seem to, take it as you will.
Funny
I was thinking the exact same thing about you.
The flesh is not mentioned by me. Fleshly thought is not employed by me either. I wonder how you gather your thoughts concerning this. However, it does not matter. We have spoken many times. Sometimes you agree with the bible, sometimes you don't. At times, you have agreed with me about the bible, other sometimes you don't. Flesh changes as such. Spirit is the same, all the time. What were you saying???I realize you would like to avoid what I said. It is okay to avoid what you cannot understand. When you get it let me know. We might then have something to discuss. Until then you are free to carry on as you have.
What has you becoming one with your husband got to do with the Father and Jesus? You can't compare Jesus being one with the Father to your sexual relationship.
Are you talking about your earthly father or the Father of Jesus? Because you can't be one person with the Father. You have no divinity in you and you are not God incarnate.
You must think the NT is corrupted when it says that Jesus is God? You must think that Timothy, Colossians and John must be wrong as they contradict what you believe.
If Jesus was the word from the beginning, then He must have been God because Jesus as the son did not exist then. If Jesus is not God, He cannot be the creator."... the word was God, and the word was WITH God."
"... And God said let us make man in our image." Are you with me???
Sexual "...so that they are no more two but one flesh." Hmmm... According to your explanation, this pair NEVER stop sexing.
My earthly father and I are not one. But I came from him.
My heavenly father and I are not one, but because of Jesus, I have his spirit.
I believe that NONE of the bible is corrupt. The followers of Jesus understood that Jesus spoke and acted under the direct authorization of God. He told them from heaven to listen to him. Jesus carries the spirit, heart, character of God. He spoke many times of his father. They could not be called one flesh, as man and wife, for God is not flesh. But the same principle applies.
God Aaaaand his father are one in spirit. They seamlessly agree. Another proof from the uncorrupted bible is The declaration that no man knows the hour nor day that he will return, save the FATHER only.
K???
I find getitrite to be entertaining for the fact that his "logical" reasonings are all based on a therory that has never been proven fact. I believe God has created the world in a way that makes everyone question what is true and false. Why else would he have created us with free will and the power to choose for ourselves what to believe. Of course he wants us to believe in him and accept his free gift of eternal life, but there will always be people who CHOOSE to deny him as true. And those people are the reason us christians are here on earth, to spread the gift of our amazing God and creator.
Yes. Our God (what's his name) is more than enough for some. Not enough for many.
He holds the cards. He gave instructions. He owns the world. His words are true and they come to pass.
And Jesus, his son who rules beside him, is the only way to get to know the father. Not Genesis!
He is proof enough himself when invited in. He is clear and simple to those who follow Jesus.
Jesus quoted the written word of God. Jesus spoke often of his relationship to his father. Jesus showed us what God expects of us. Jesus forgave. Jesus died a horrible death. Jesus lives.You know...it almost sounds like you are actually talking about a real person, or being. It's disturbing that all these accolade are being heaped upon a mere imaginary character...and just because he kicks butt. Still, why do we need to worship him? Why do we need to show such servile behavior towards him? And even if Jesus is an awesome guy, why must we be his SLAVES?
Praise is just what I do. I love the Lord for all the things he has done for me. It is easy to see God when you look for him. But to not have ONE opportunity to be "held" by God and KNOW, is a waste of human life and makes you unfit for the kingdom. It aint my rules. And if it is nonsense to you, why consider it a threat? Pinocchio don't scare me.
We should praise and worship him because of everything he has done for us and for this beautiful world he has let us live in. He is the almighty, why would you NOT show perfect behavior towards him? And we are by no means his slaves. He gave us a choice to follow him and do his works or we can reject him and live a pointless life here on earth. Not a very hard choice, save people and live in Heaven for eternity when you die or burn endlessly in the pits of hell.
- writermom6posted 12 years ago0
To answer your question, "Why is the name Jesus such a sore area for so many?" Well the bible tells us that "many are called, but few are choosen" point blank! Continue on that narrow path my beloved sister. God Bless.
Thanks mom
God bless you back! Biblical scripture always works. Though some don't believe it. But I guess that's got something to do with being chosen.Yes, and at some point we should not continue to allow certain individuals to make a mockery of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Some of us have planted, others have watered, but it is God who will give the increase. As we know, He will give it in His time and according to His perfect will.
I understand what you mean. It seems though that the mockers will eventually find the error in thought by listening to one who knows the word of God. How else can they hear? Also, there are those who desire to understand. If they hear me say look to Jesus enough times, they may.
God is not offended by a little mockery. He knows what he is working with. And he does not look at things as we do. It takes a long time for him to anger. His mercy is everlasting. People need to know that.
Now, YOU may not be one to stand here for this long with this kind of opposition; but in the body, there are many parts. This is part of my part. I am not looking to win souls. I am only pointing to Jesus. I seem to be making not a lot of "friends", but heck, God is good anyhowOh please, you are limiting God again to things of the flesh.
I quote the bible when I say that "in the body there are many parts" this body refers to the "body" of Christ. You are quite oppositional tonight.
wrong each time.Don't worry you missed the point I know. I am aware of where you quote from and how you understand it so I realize how you will perceive me or any other that has an opposing view is wrong. It's all good.
Ha, Ha! True, many members. You're awesome! Stay strong sis.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
666, your slander will not work this time either.
Don't make me love you!!!
Lies, misconceptions and half-truths are what you HOPE to gain from all your badgering. But I am armed. I know what I am speaking about and you will never be able to take that from me. It was not given by you. So, read the words of God without scrutiny. Ask him for an understanding of it. Have faith enough to ask. Oh! You are not who you claim to be, I forgot. But, the person typing your words can probably hear me. Well - have you not received an answer to your question yet? Keep accusing people of slander when they speak the truth like a good sheep and you will get negative reactions. Sheep never understand anything - they just go where they have been herded.
This is why your religion causes so many fights.The Lord still loves you. He will try again. Sorry to have offended you. and Stop all that fighting!!! I won't say nothing else, if you won't, til the next time.
Ah - weird. You are fighting with just about everyone except me. I just asked you a question. You have no offended me, much as you have tried. I am not so easily offended other than in a general, "I wish they would stop being so aggressive - this is what causes all the conflicts," sort of way.
Clearly - as you did not answer once again - you have not gotten your answer.
Do you understand about the sheep thing yet?yes, I understand the sheep thing. You don't. It is ok. I am not mad at you either. I don't mind aggression. It is the adversary's way. He is a raging force. And he wishes to quiet the name of Jesus. I am here, and I am :)ing.
Oh - so your aggression is because of some one else? Are you working for this "adversary," then? Odd you need to blame some one other than yourself. I guess that is the sheep thing huh? Never take responsibility, just claim you were following some one else like a good sheep.
I am thinking you don't understand the sheep thing. Do I need to explain it again? Or are you still happy that you know what Jesus meant, not what he said?When you said I wish they would not be so aggressive, I thought you were talking about he aggressive ones. Aggression is not necessary for me. I have "the pen". Words don't hurt me, and I have a way of using them as well. I do go where I am led, so you "got" me there.
my good shepherd, deserves good sheep. I know what Jesus meant, you do not. That is ok with me. But you cannot let it go. What's wrong?Ah - interesting. You think you are not being aggressive? Cannot let what go? That you keep on telling me you understand something when I do not - even though I have shown you how wrong you are?
Dunno - just want you to stop causing so much conflict I guess. Think that is a good idea? I keep trying to explain why your attitude and aggression cause so much conflict - nothing to do with Jesus - all you.You have shown me how wrong I am. Now that is a blatant lie. But I hate to be so rude.
What is interesting, is the fact that you see me as aggressive. You do not feel that you are being aggressive??? Ok, no sweat off my back.Not only has he shown you to be dishonest, but everyone else that you have debated with on this thread has...and that's including the other Christians...OMG! Just how unconscious are you of reality?!!
This is not just a religious belief, this is COMPLETE MADNESS!
I see you are still waging your all out WAR ON ATHEIST...and everyone else who doesn't share the exact same psychotic delusion that you do, even though you have done nothing but prove that your position is complete mind numbing senseless drivel.
It's not the name of Jesus that causes the conflict, it's you, aggressively trying to force feed the logical minds of non-believers with illogical nonsense. Of course that's gonna cause conflict. So problem solved...as you can see now that the whole problem is YOU!
You can close the thread now.Awwww, but if I close the thread, whatever will you do with your time???
I know that if that were true and you had proven me wrong/crazy you would not STILL be here debating, poor, poor, mistaken soul. The conversation would have waned for lack of interest or intelligence but you are still here, yelling about "Pinocchio". And you won't let it go. Have some pride Man!
This all what gained from you.
Yes with lies and contradictions and sentences that does not carry any meaning.
If YOU KNOW what you are talking about, you should be able to say that without contradicting yourself, you haven't done that yet.
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/105128? … ost2253415
Unfortunately, gods words are NOT available to us. All that is available, is what people who talk FOR god. And like you, they have said only contradictions and lies.God's words are indeed available for us. They are scriptural, and they do not lie. It takes a spiritual mind to understand it. And I think that is your main issue. You are trying to REASON as my friend I told you about. It is not a REASONABLE concept. God is multifaceted. He will not fit into your little cubicles. Sorry you have to learn this way. I know it is disheartening to want something so bad and it seems a million miles away. But maybe you should just give up on trying to understand and go an talk to someone about Vishnu. You cannot prove to me that I have lied to you. Your questions confuse you. Your "cornering" allows you to miss every point because you look for the needle in the haystack. The needle is Jesus. Jesus is right with everything he did. Believe it or don't. Jesus is the one you should ask about. You miss all points when you bounce from OT to NT and try to make a case. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. He was not reproachable, and he remains that way today. Go in peace. I am sure that you may find someone who walks your path. Give them your ear.
It is human's word's that is available to us, not god's. Or are you telling me that god wrote books? If so which book is it?
G:" It is not a REASONABLE concept'
What is not reasonable is called NONSENSE.
G;"But maybe you should just give up on trying to understand"
As you did? Then what difference I have got from an idiot?
G;"Your questions confuse you".
No it is your contradictory and irrelevant answers that confuse YOU.
G:"Jesus fulfilled all of the law"
Which law? There is no talk about jesus in OT.
G:"You miss all points when you bounce from OT to NT and try to make a case"
It is you who are doing it. You did it again when you said jesus fulfilled the law.
G:"You cannot prove to me that I have lied "
But that is there for all to read. You did say in bible "god said jesus is god" and that is a lie.
G:"Jesus is the one you should ask about"
Unfortunately he is long dead and gone.- I cannot believe my eyes. You are so much like someone I used to know right here on these HUBpages. You are more out of touch with truth because your brain is in the way. It has not allowed you to see the answers to each and every one of your questions and then some. But I am not upset. Please, have it your way. I said that God is God because God says so. And as I ALREADY explained to no recognition, it all takes a spiritual mind to understand. God said so because his son, that he agrees with fully, said so. Then you went to talking about the sabbath day confusion that Jesus straightened out, but still went ignored by you. If you close your ears. You will never hear an explanation. lf you close your heart, you will never know the Lord.
G:"God is god because god said so"??
What does that even mean?
G:"You are more out of touch with truth because your brain is in the way"
The people who do not use brain are called morons, or fools or idiots by the public.
Is Jesus God?I am not concerned about what the public thinks of you. Or me, for that matter. I know that you will never understand what I say. Your tools are not effective. But you do have this information. All will be exposed to truth. Reason is unreasonable in this realm. You are mean. But that's ok too.
I just want to highlight this so, genaea wrote: You are more out of touch with truth because your brain is in the way.
Have you heard this, The only way human can fight against error is through reason?
Are you saying we need to remove our brains in order to believe in God?
Yes, I can see how the brain would get in the way of that statement as it would understand it is as ridiculous as it is fallacious.
Yes, the brain would not understand what a "spiritual mind" consists of and I would submit that one without a brain would not be able to explain it, either.
Perhaps, it goes something like this...
A spiritual mind is a spiritual mind because a spiritual mind says so.
The heart pumps blood, so most likely we would die if it closed.Not everyone needs to remove their brains to believe God. Only the slowest to understand what he says. They miss the forest because of all the trees.
The brain is in direct opposition because we were not present for these biblical occurrences. We were not with Thomas when he was able to prove that Jesus was in fact being truthful.
Problem is, you and ur friends are missing visual proof that would allow your brains to catch it.
Is that too bad for God? We shall see.Hilarious, you contradict yourself when you make claims that others weren't there. Were you there?
No, i was not there. Difference is, my faith works. I believe without having seen because my "proof" comes from the inside. Using the bible, I was able to cultuvate a spot for faith.
If you are not using your brain to understand, why are you even bothering to READ the bible? Reading the bible requires using the brain. Could you demonstrate how it can be accomplished by some other mode? I'll be waiting. Thanks
What religion or philosophy are you here to share?
Unfortunately, I can't. I have said many times how it is done. You will not receive it. It's like the "Charlie Brown teacher" to your ears because you are carnally minded. That means you do not think spiritually. You view the sacrifice made by Jesus a "murder/suicide" committed at the "fault" of God. Or, you believe that Jesus never existed. How then are you able to understand the things of him? Not really possible.
Sorry I don't possess the superior special powers that you have
I just can't seem to acquire that elite status like you super folk
U is definitely from Gawd!
Dat's y I has a DUNCE kap on.
Yet, it has held your attention for WEEKS!!!
now I think that you just say the "popular" thing.Oh, I see now, you actually believe that pointing out your fabrications, fallacies and magical thinking is popular and that we are riveted to your every word.
You come across as a forum frog, but you are really a sweet little pussy cat.
Noooooo, I don't think you are riveted.
But I bet you were the victim of a schoolyard bully.Again, the believers superiority complex must constantly be fed with fabrications and lies they themselves create in order to continue causing conflict to those who don's share their magical thinking.
I am assisting you in getting it all out. You can be as colorful as you wish
you crave attention. I'll give it to you. I have nowhere to go.
Though you don't share MY "magical" thinking; you certainly share someone's. I have no problem discussing until your heart's contentIt's funny when believers project their own short comings onto others. Who started this thread?
He's got the whole world in his hand . . .
even little forum frogs.How many sock puppets is that for you? The frog thingy is getting really old. Try something new before you get banned again.
I have taken precautions to protect myself and my cat.
By the way, men don't say "thingy", mam.Men don't continuously create sock puppets and act immature by following others around on forums making childish remarks.
Reliable witnesses were there.
I don't understand what ya'll "Hubbers" are all about. A forum is supposed to be a place for an amenable exchange of thoughts and ideas. I was expecting to get an opportunity to learn more about the religion and philosophy of others on this little planet.
I would like to learn more about Hinduism, Taoism, Zen and Islam. I would like to learn more about your beliefs. You seem oppositional and defiant to a civil exchange. May I reach out a hand? Will you take it?Yes, would like to learn some too.
But whenever someone started it, others will follows. That the Hubbers spirit.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
I found a quote that qualifies! "...a voice from the clouds said, this is my dearly beloved son, who brings me great joy. Listen to him." This to me affirms two things: God and the son were differentiated. And, God bestowed his own authority upon Jesus. "Listen to him" definitely illustrates that God agreed with whatever he said. Is Jesus Lord? In the sense that he spoke the thoughts of God and was given authority to speak/act on God's behalf, as a human being; as well as the fact that he sits at the right hand of God as second-in-command.
I seriously think people should quit responding in this thread - it is not ethically right to taunt the afflicted, and there does not seem to be much sanity here.
The 24/7 responses at any time could be some kind of obsessive compulsive disorder, even more unbalanced than the typical christian beliefs espoused in many other threads.***I agree recommend 1 although "afflicted," is harsh...although I did discover this forum under "Hot Topic," while hub-hopping? So what does that imply? The exchanges between the various views here although different are the rights of those choosing to post them as it will be my right to not visit this particular forum again... Calm intelligent discourse between different view-points never seem to happen when religious beliefs or spiritual alternatives (including ones right not to be believe) are presented. Rather than a "Hot Topic," I think it make a lot of folks "Just Hot ." To each their own no one posting here is right or wrong, their belief or non-belief has a right to be expressed, although personally I'll be hub-hopping along.***
Laura - the issue is not the right to express an opinion, that is always ok. The issue here is whether it is right to keep responding to what are obviously mildly insane comments. Ethically it is not right to keep feeding an addict their drug of choice, it just helps the sock puppet more down the road of instability.
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
Hi Laura,
You may want to ensure that you are not sent the posts from this forum by pressing the unfollow button.
This has proven to be a hot topic by the many many posts.
I am not interested in transforming any opinions, only offering the knowledge of God through the life and death of Jesus, to those who want to hear. Most do not agree and that is expected. But since you seem to have implied that you are not interested, you may want to save yourself the constant influx of "Hot Topic" posts.
Have a great day!!!
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