Hot Button Topic

Jump to Last Post 1-50 of 434 discussions (3843 posts)

0
genaeaposted 10 years ago
Since I identify as Christian, because I believe in Jesus as the savior, I speak of it often.
I have found that in all my conversations with the most intelligent, and/or highly articulate, and some not so articulate; I am bombarded with many objections to my faith.
I am accused of being indoctrinated; unable to think for myself; and my personal favorite, unintelligent. I just wonder why??? If I am speaking things as I see them. I am well within my right.
Why is the name Jesus, such a sore area for so many? The way I see it is this: If I am wrong, why must you try to convince me? I am not the ultra pushy evangelizer who will visit you at your home uninvited, to spread the word o'God.
I am convinced of my position. Are you not convinced of yours?
reply report
1. 85
  Paul K Francisposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What you say does not sound very unintelligent to me. Most people will, I think, respect your convictions. Don't be angry at the ones who do not. Have a nice day.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Anger does not come into play. I have some type of patience that allows for the most ridiculous of statements Thank you for your comment, I just wonder why this subject usually ends with name-calling and disrespect. Where does the "anger" come from? The name Jesus really ruffles feathers. I guess it is supposed to. Satan has many more followers.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What's really hilarious is that you answered your own questions.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So, what are YOU doing?
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Pointing out your flaws and fabrications.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nuh-uhn!!!
  reply report
  60
  Getridameposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Another slow learner.
  
  Gotcha again!
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  God designed it as such- if everything was faster than the gator then it would starve now wouldn't it?
  reply report
  82
  Slarty O'Brianposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So god designed it to kill? Odd god you have. Perhaps he could have designed it to eat sun light? Why design it and us to be predators and in a sense murderers on a daily basis just so we can all survive?
  
  I'd say any conscious god that designed it all this way should never be forgiven for it's lack of compassion and its cruelty.
  
  On the other hand if the universe was produced through a non-conscious process it all makes sense, and it isn't maliciousness.
  
  The fact that there is real evidence of nature (that being the nature of energy/matter) and there is no real evidence of a god is a positive thing.
  
  Never the less, I respect your right to believe what ever you like. But if you are on these kinds of forums you are going to have to justify your beliefs and expect all manner of opinions.
  
  Best to grow a think skin like the gator.
  reply report
  30
  healthierdietposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I think you're right with this one....lol
  reply report
  67
  A Thousand Wordsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I think the anger has many different roots that can't be summed up in every non-christian being "Satan's followers." It's ideas like that that many people find to be rude. Just because we don't believe in Jesus, we are "Satan's followers" whether we want to be or not. it's the psychology amongst other things that perpetuates the doctrine and the dogma that bother most of the people I know, along with myself. You can believe whatever you like, but sometimes, no matter what you believe, somoene won't like it. Just read the situation... If it's inappropriate, don't bring it up, or do expect to get some flack. Just like Christians want our respect, they should respect us. Just like you are passionate about what you believe, a lot of people passionately disagree.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I can respect your space, if you respect mine.
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Look at the comments on this topic from the beginning. Now, answer honestly, was it the Christian who used sarcasm and degrading name calling first? No, the unbelievers did. They are making fun of genaea for asking a religious question. What I fail to understand is why even attempt to answer a faith-based question if you do not share her beliefs? It is to fight and play the "I'm smart, see" game. What disrespect has she shown any of you? It is you "honest intellectuals" that have been disrespectful. I'm sorry if you guys have had bad experiences with Christians, but we are as individual as unbelievers are. To attack and make fun of one for his/her belief system and turn around and claim that those members of that system are disrespectful is more than disingenuous. If you flack for what you believe do you simply concede that you should never speak of it again? That would turn us all into pets would it not?
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus said in Matthew 10:34, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Why is this? It is simply because the Holy Spirit that is within the Christian and the spirit of this world which is within the unbeliever, are at odds. You recognized "truth" when you heard it and the world at large has not (sadly). I would say they remain indoctrinated and you have been set free!
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  indoctrinate
  verb
  teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
  
  This means that the word indoctrinate, can only be use when a person or group has a belief that they haven't thought critically about. If someone just excepts on faith that God or the holy spirit exists without question, they have been indoctrinated.
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No, as an educator, I can assure you that indoctrination does not require any critical cognitive behavior. We are all indoctrinated from birth to death. The difference is simply that some have realized this simple truth and thus, are set free (choosing to shake off their "taught" world view) while most continue on as usual-indoctrinated in their views that if visualized, would look oddly like a Venn Diagram. If you do not think that you have been indoctrinated my friend, you are greatly mistaken!
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sure I was raised as a Catholic and was indoctrinated, but at about 11 or 12 I started to question what I was doing and started to look at the church from the outside. Nobody told me to think the way I do and I didn't bring it up to anyone until I was about 19. So you tell me just how I was indoctrinated to be an Atheist? I think that if one can plant the seed of doubt young enough (before the brain is finished developing) some can be reached. Otherwise we end up with someone disbelieving science in the favour of the bible.
  reply report
  65
  Claire Evansposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Radman, this doesn't make sense. If you were indoctrinated, you could not possibly start to question later on. You would have pushed all critical thinking aside. Indoctrinated people can't reason.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sure they can, they just need to start before there brain is fully developed. Once I started to question I couldn't stop. The next thing I know I was looking from the outside in.
  reply report
  65
  Claire Evansposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What was your first question?
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I think it was, why would a loving God allow so much suffering?
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  My first question, which consequently got me kicked out of Sunday school (and before I went to Bible college) was "how can you be perfectly just and perfectly merciful if mercy is the suspension of justice?"
  reply report
  60
  bBereanposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Not an easy question since the penalty must be paid for justice to prevail. Mercy then required someone else pay the penalty. Jesus did. Penalty is paid and mercy is offered. So the debate then becomes that you may feel it is not justice since the penalty was paid by someone else. If the penalty was owed by mankind and a sinless man who owed no dept therefore paid it, it squares. I suspect you will disagree. That is the answer I believe God gave though.
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe that substitutionarry atonement is particularly moral at all. I would also argue that
  
  1) god is supposedly the one that created the laws.
  2) god created evil
  3) god created human beings knowing what would happen, what they would do and how it would work out.
  4) god created the law that he new was impossible for humans to follow
  5) god punished human beings for not being able to follow the law
  6) god enjoyed the scent of burning flesh, so for awhile they sacrificed animals according to his command.
  7) animals ceased to be sufficient
  8) god (who is apparently all knowing and all powerful) instead of deciding to just forgive people because he loves them, decided that the ONLY way around his own law was to create a loophole so no one would have to be responsible for ANYTHING that they do, if they only believe something the way he says to (except no one can agree how that is)
  9) god sent himself in human form who may or may not be equal to himself, depending on which gospel you read, to earth to wander around for 30 so years with NO historical contemporary evidence whatsoever even though he raised people from the dead, healed people and whipped business owners out of the temple
  10) god "sacrificed" himself to himself to appease himself because clearly that makes sense when you can do anything you want and there couldn't possibly be an easier way
  11) at the moment of gods death, he abandoned himself and dozens of jewish zombies roamed the streets of jerusalem (completely unnoticed, incidentally) as well as the curtain being torn from top to bottom, unexplained darkness and earthquakes (also completely unnoticed)
  12) god vanishes for 3 days - incidentally, what is the significance of the 3 day waiting period? It can't possibly represent the trinity, since the trinity didn't actually exist for another couple hundred years - and thing brings himself back to life and goes back home, good as new.
  
  How does this not sound completely ridiculous to you? this doesn't even go into all the ridiculousness of the old testament stories.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe it's because this "truth" that you speak of is filled with only LIES. Imagine that!
  
  Try actually telling the truth and we will have no problem believing...If we disregard our intellectual honesty, and choose to believe despite the glaring dissonance, we will just become dishonest, immoral, willfully ignorant, blind followers. There is no honor in being a slave.
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have told the truth, perhaps you have missed something in my post and should read it again. I did not say that my truth is known to you, I simply gave a Biblical reason to Genaea for the hostility that she encounters because of her faith in Jesus the Christ. Further, my truth is your lie, not a lie. Just because you do not agree with me does not make me or my "truth" a lie. I could share my truth with you all day and you would still not believe. Also, I in no way disregard intellectual honesty. I simply have the sense to admit that we are limited in our understanding of many things. Science and those like yourself (I gather from your post) pretend that you can be adamant about so much, but before man had the capability to see the make up of a simple snowflake the Bible proclaimed "Have you entered into the treasures of the snow? or have you seen the treasures of the hail?" Job 38:22 Their will remain a great dissonance between faith and what you call intellectual honesty. I am more than grateful for that- because if you count yourself amongst the first group it is you who are being dishonest. You claim honesty due to intellect, yet you call me a liar due to your ignorance of spiritual things. There is no honor in that either! Proclaiming that intellect is honesty is rather obtuse reasoning. Are you a slave to your so-called intellectual honesty? If you were as honest as you try to come across, you would admit that you cannot be certain that God does not exist. Lastly, I would rather be a slave knowingly than to be one and not have a clue as to my condition. We are all slaves to something (if that helps you understand my point better).
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not the ONLY one who disagrees with your "truth" Here are a few others that disagree with your outlandish assertions: REALITY. COMMON SENSE. SANITY...
  
  But you go one step further than just admitting that we are limited in our understanding...when you assert that Goddunnit! That's dishonesty. Admit that you don't know...and be done with it.
  
  Pathetic!
  
  Since spiritual things are imaginary, you are the one being dishonest. One can't claim to know things that are unknowable, by misinterpreting a 2000 year old book of myths and fairy tales...without looking completely dishonest and absurd.
  
  Which God?!!!
  
  Yeah I get your point. The point is that indoctrination causes people to make all kinds of ridiculous assertions in order to desperately plead for the acceptance of their psychotic delusion.
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I can blatantly admit that I do not understand how the universe was created. It is scientists (not all) that peddle their theories as fact. A Christian says, "I believe the world was created by a loving creator" not "I know the world was created by a loving creator." But, common sense dictates that order comes from order versus the contrary (that order came from chaos). Absurdity is looking at the marvels of our universe and determining that it was (in all of its glorious order) a happenstance. That is like a child throwing Lincoln Logs on the floor and them landing as a beautiful, well-built log cabin versus landing in a simple pile made of logs. Spiritual things are not imaginary in my honest opinion. Are you not the one claiming to know the "unknowable" when you so adamantly deny even the possibility that God does exist? You deny that you have been indoctrinated yet, you call me dishonest and delusional. I am not pleading nor am I desperate for acceptance. With your name calling it is you who comes across desperate to prove something. History has proven that Book you call a fairy tale to be very accurate. As to which God Christians hold as such He has many names that highlight His character, but when Moses asked Him, "Who shall I say sent me?" He answered, "I AM, that I AM." On another note, I would rather be pathetic and right than pathetic and wrong when I come to the end of my life to find that there is indeed a God and He lovingly holds us accountable for our choices made in this journey we call life.
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The intelligent design argument has been debated and debunked so many times, it's insane. I would suggest that you go to talkorigins.org if you want to see creationist claims and the scientific response. It seems like you don't really understand the scientific method works, nor do you understand the difference between a scientific theory and the common use of the word. Scientists do not assert anything with absolute certainty. They observe, test, repeat, etc. the "theory" of evolution is not what you think it is. Scientists, unlike theists, examine the evidence and if it is proven incorrect, they CHANGE THEIR MINDS. No matter how many apologists try to debunk evolution, they fail. Miserably. Repeatedly. If someone could disprove evolution, they would have a Nobel prize.
  
  What history exactly are you claiming process the Bible accurate?
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You, obviously, don't care to really ascertain what comprises a scientific THEORY.
  
  Yet you are here defending those BELIEFS as if they were facts. Secondly, you have no evidence, whatsoever, for your illogical beliefs. LOVING???!!! I guess Hurricane Sandy was a display of his LOVE!
  
  So I should just pretend that a 2000 year old plagiarized book of ignorance is the logical default. Right? How stupefying!
  
  Of course...then let's see your proof!
  
  I never said I deny the possibility of the existence of a god. Please stop creating straw man fallacies.
  
  Again, I never said that I was not indoctrinated. My father was a Pentecostal minister. I went to a public school that held devotion every morning. I went to church regularly, and I was SAVED at the age of 10. I LOVED GOD! You want to try that from another angle? I was not "indoctrinated" to be a non-believer. One sheds this nonsense after obtaining a conviction for intellectual honesty.
  
  Now that is sheer desperation! And disturbingly DISHONEST!
  
  So any other gods, such as Vishnu, Thor, Epona, Ra, Allah, etc., are imaginary, right?!
  
  You are no better off than I am. Just suppose that when you die, you find out that The Amazon Jungle God is actually the real God. You could be in DEEP trouble trying to explain why you didn't believe in him.
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  additionally (and how did I miss this the first time I read it) You are using the argument from incredulity as well as the argument from ignorance fallacies in your statements when you describe the universe.
  
  Even if you used a debunked apologist claim like TAG to claim the necessity for god, you AT MOST can get someone to accept the possibility that a god may have existed - not which one. You can't simply jump from science to "therefore god". It's god of the gaps, as soon as there's something you don't know how to explain, god did it. The problem here is that "god" could be substituted with "magic" or "bigfoot" or the flying spaghetti monster. You cannot demonstrate the necessity for YOUR god. Period. Not to mention that TAG has been repeatedly debunked.
  
  You also danced around Pascal's Wager towards the end, without actually saying it. But you're appealing to emotion, and all but saying "what if you're wrong". Well, what if YOU'RE wrong. There have been thousands and thousands of gods throughout history, but you don't worry about the consequences if one of THEM is the real god, and yours is imaginary.
  reply report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  "Who shall I say sent me?" He answered, "I AM, that I AM." A statement totally understood by all those who have experienced deep meditation, whether of a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or any other mystic persuasion. The "I Am," the pure center of our being, unchanging, infinite, and the fountain of all understanding and consciousness. Jesus himself is reported as speaking of this sublime awareness. In fact this was the essence of His message, time and time again.
  
  Unfortunately the average person expounding christianity has skirted around it and denies its reality.
  
  " I would rather be pathetic and right than pathetic and wrong when I come to the end of my life ...."
  
  Sorry to disappoint you, but at the end of your life, there is Nothing! You will not be aware of whether you were "right" or "wrong," because there is no consciousness for the person calling him/herself Icimarik. "I Am" refers to existence, in the here and now, infinite because it cannot be measured, instantaneous and not extending anywhere, backwards, forwards, up or down, past or future.
  
  In this moment, in meditation, you can find the True God, True Love, True Consciousness, One-ness with the Universe. There is no need for you to worry about anything after your death. Just concentrate, as much as you are able, on doing the right thing by everyone else who is living around you in this here and now. When that death comes you will have left it too late.
  
  Only one eye needs to be opened.....The Inner One.
  reply report
  55
  Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent points Jonny. I may be wrong, but I think Icimarik was referring to the Ressurection ( which is the core of the believers faith, at least mine) when he mentioned awareness after death. You are quite right, the dead are concious of nothing, no dead loved ones looking down or up, for that matter. Christians also fail to read Ex.3:15. The Name of the Father is clearly stated. From the original Hebrew Scriptures,(15) And Alahym said further to M'shah,"Thus you shall say to the children of Yashar'al, Yahuah Alahym of your fathers, the Alahym of Abraham, the Alahym of Yatsaq, and theAlahym Y'aqb, has sent me to you. This is my Name forever, and this is my remembrance to all generations". They ( Christians) read a book that has removed His Name 7,000 times and replaced it with "god" and "lord" etc., but they STILL (not shouting) do not understand the importance of His true Name. Having said this, I can truly appreciate the wisdom in your words.
  reply report
  59
  Davidsonofjesieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  somebody forgot to take their little pills
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent observation. Jesus told us that the world hates him and will hate those of us who follow. He said that we shouldn't be afraid of this.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That's more indoctrination talking.
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yours?
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed - Christianity causes nothing but conflict. Any time you have people who refuse to learn because they have a majik voice telling them what to do - you are going to get conflicts. This is the real reason the religion causes so many fights. It is easy - say the majik words and you are a self righteous believer with god on your side. No wonder there have been so many religious wars.
  
  See: History.
  reply report
  59
  Davidsonofjesieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  what relgious wars mark
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  ever cracked open a history book?
  reply report
  59
  Davidsonofjesieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  the only war of religion that I can remember in the last 100 yrs. iraq and afgan,the rest was started by athist
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  yeah okay. Which wars are you claiming were started by "Atheists"?
  
  Religion has existed for thousands of years in many competing forms. Why are you limiting it to 100 years? You're missing the best parts - like the crusades.
  reply report
  59
  Davidsonofjesieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  christians did not start that war it was the muslims
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  oh really? So christians didn't go marching into jerusalem, killing every man, woman and child in their wake regardless of their own religion and dictating that killing a muslim wasn't murder - it was the will of god?
  
  Once again, however, you asked about RELIGIOUS wars. You didn't dictate that it was only YOUR religion.
  
  Also, you didn't answer my question. Which wars, exactly, were started by atheists?
  reply report
  59
  Davidsonofjesieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  ww1 ww2 korea russian and china revalutions,but if you call atheist a religion than I guess you could call all wars,war of religion
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Atheism is not a religion.
  
  You get that Hitler was a self-proclaimed catholic, and that his extermination of the jews was "gods will" right?
  
  ww1 was started due to nationalism, not atheism - and nationalism is ironically something that you find most common among rampant religious belief. In fact, nationalism can ALMOST (but not quite) be considered a religion in itself.
  
  Russians were communists, and their revolution had nothing to do with atheism or religion - although Stalin was a theological seminary graduate (and I'm not claiming he started the revolution based on religious beliefs, or lack thereof - see, that's intellectual honesty).
  
  I don't know much about Chinese history, and I can't comment one way or the other.
  reply report
  59
  Davidsonofjesieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I just dont like it when people try to reason with them-selfs why they will not beleive in God and falsey accuse God of being blood thristy,the reason the U.S.A is in the bad shape it is in now is because the church has set by and let the atheist in this country push God out of every part of public life and than cry foul when some one goes and kills a bunch of people and than says if theres a God how could he let this happen,when its our fault for standing by and letting people like you do it, O man I know lets take away everybodys guns just like hitler did so no one could stop him from coming by and start killing people who are not like him
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  you get that atheists are the most hated minority in this country right now, right? We're not taking over.
  
  DO you know why organized, lead prayer was taken out of schools to begin with? It was to protect those of different religious beliefs - not to promote atheim, and publically lead prayer in schools was against the constitution of the country.
  
  Say lead prayer was still allowed in public schools. Would you like your child to come home reciting a muslim prayer? How about a jewish one? How about a prayer to Zeus or Apollo. If you allow public/organized prayer in school, how do you choose which prayer to which god? By the particular beliefs of the teacher? What if the teacher is Islamic? Wouldn't it lead to prejudicial treatment of students, if several students agreed with the teacher's religious belief and others didn't?
  
  You seem to have a bug up your rear about atheists. We're not doing anything wrong. We have a constitutional right to believe (or not believe) anything we choose. It's the religious right who is making laws that abide by their religion, which blatantly goes against the separation of church and state. If churches want to get involved in politics, then they should be taxed like the rest of us.
  
  You seem to be fundamentally misinformed or mislead about atheism. Do you know many? I can't believe that you do, or a large majority of this superstitious nonsense would be gone by now.
  
  All you need to do to know that god is a bloodthirsty god is to read the bible - especially the old testament. I can't believe you've actually read all of that either.
  report
  63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Madeline Murray O'Hare was the instigator for taking prayer out of schools. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O'Hair
  O'Hair later founded American Atheists and became so controversial that in 1964 Life magazine referred to her as "the most hated woman in America".[
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Diane, it seems Madalyn Mays was killed for her beliefs. I would love to have met that woman.... so strong in her conviction and willing to stand up against bigotry in her time.
  I wonder who was controlling Life Magazine in those years..... do you suppose it was a christian?
  One could never accuse me of being cynical, of course! Umph!!
  
  So, I look into Wikipedia, and what do we find?
  "[Henry Robinson]Luce, known to his friends as "Father Time," was born in Tengchow, China, on April 3, 1898, the son of Elizabeth Middleton and Henry Winters Luce, who was a Presbyterian missionary. He received his education in various Chinese and English boarding schools including the China Inland Mission Chefoo School. He was sent to the U.S. at the age of 15 to attend the Hotchkiss School in Connecticut, followed by Yale College."
  
  Therefore, Luce was not unbiased in what he allowed to be published in Life Magazine. He also had to sell that magazine to an American public that wanted things to be religiously correct, otherwise the publication would have gone broke, wouldn't it?
  
  All I am really saying is, be careful when you read something, look to the background of the author. As anyone can do for my postings here..... I am open with my background, so anyone can draw their own conclusions. I note that some of the christian zealots who post here are very reluctant to disclose their background info. So I do not trust them!
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Actually she was not killed for her beliefs, she was killed for her money.
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't know that, thanks for the correction.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Madeline Murray O'Hare happened to be an Atheist, she could just as well have been a Jew trying to no have Christian prayers sited my her Jewish Children.
  The very fact that she was call "the most hated woman in America" is an indication of just how indoctrinated North America was and is. Atheist as still thought by many to be followers of Satan. That's the eruption that she caused. She was many times on Donahue, you should youtube her.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  that's true - but again, what does that have to do with the conversation?
  
  She didn't take prayer out of schools because she was an atheist. She did it to protect the religious freedom of all students - not just christians. She was also gunned down and killed with her son and grand-daughter.
  
  I would also like to add - there is still prayer in school. Students are welcome to pray any prayer to any god they'd like. There is just not prayer that is organized or lead by the faculty.
  report
  63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I read a biography of Madeline Murray O'Hare, written by her son who became a Christian. There was nothing whatsoever about concern for religious freedom. The woman was a real kook! As I remember, she was a one-woman army on the case. I don't remember any group involvement.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  that would be mistaken - and written with a bias. You and I have discussed bias before.
  
  Technically speaking, she had nothing to do with prayer in schools. that was abolished a year before her landmark lawsuit against the Baltimore County School system where she said that it was against the constitution of the country to require students to participate actively in bible readings within the public school system - and to be discriminated against when they didn't want to be involved. The removal of prayer from the public school system was in Engel Vs. Vitale:
  
  The case was brought by the families of public school students in New Hyde Park, New York who complained that the voluntary prayer to "Almighty God" contradicted their religious beliefs. They were supported by groups opposed to the school prayer including rabbinical organizations, Ethical Culture, and Judaic organizations. The prayer in question was:
  
  Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen.
  
  The plaintiffs argued that opening the school day with such a prayer violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution (as applied to the states through the Fourteenth), which says in part, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". The governments of twenty-two states signed on to an amicus curiae brief urging affirmation of the New York Court of Appeals decision that upheld the constitutionality of the prayer.[1] The American Ethical Union, the American Jewish Committee, and the Synagogue Council of America each submitted briefs urging the Court to instead reverse and rule that the prayer was unconstitutional.
  
  All that aside, the fact that you call her a "kook" just speaks to your own bias. She had views that you don't agree with, just like she would have disagreed with some of yours, but I don't see that as a justification for labeling her, judging her or name-calling. the fact of the matter is that this country is not a "christian" country. It was founded on secular principles which were upheld in the treaty of tripoli, which stated: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims),—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
  
  She stood for the separation of church and state, and so do I - and I'm a current member of the American Atheists. I guess you'd call me a "kook" too. But I'm the one that's harassing you, right?
  report
  63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  My reference to her as a "kook" had nothing to do with being an atheist. She was not a nice lady. We've had the discussion about atheists being moral. I know many non-Christians who have a high moral standard.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Not a nice lady? And you got that from her converted sons' account of her - which is biased, slanted and a little insane.
  report
  63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  If you have heard good stuff, I'm open to hear it. Her son didn't write info for wikipedia. Here's a blurb:
  
  Speculation abounded on the cause and meaning of O'Hair's disappearance.[20] Some hypothesized that the O'Hairs had abandoned American Atheists and fled with the money. One investigator working for Vanity Fair, after looking at evidence presented to him by former employee David Roland Waters, concluded that they had escaped to New Zealand.[9]
  
  I don't like to use wikipedia when I can come up with an authoritative source but what's on wikipedia is consistent with what is in her biography. The biographer includes a lot more day to day detail.
  
  Since it looks like she double crossed American Atheists, which she founded, I don't think they would be inclined to write a glowing article on her.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  In January 2001, Waters informed the police that the O'Hairs were buried on a Texas ranch, and he subsequently led them to the bodies.[9][19] When the police excavated there, they discovered that the O'Hairs' bodies had been cut into dozens of pieces with a saw. The remains exhibited such extensive mutilation and successive decomposition that identification had to be made through dental records, by DNA testing and, in Madalyn O'Hair's case, by the serial number of her prosthetic hip.[25] The head and hands of Danny Fry were also found at the site.
  
  Just a little lower in the article, that you seem to have missed.
  report
  63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No I didn't miss it. We were discussing whether or not she was a "kook." It sould like she/they really ticked someone off to chop them up in little pieces. Not that I know a lot but after watching a lot of crime shows I can say "This is a crime of passion."
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Anyone can tick someone off until they do something drastic. that doesn't mean that they're "kooks". it means that people are greedy and they do horrible things to each other. It's hardly anything new.
  
  I'd be more inclined to say that the person who kidnapped, mutilated and massacred her and her family is the "kook". Not immediately blame the victim
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  With all due respect Diane, the info you pasted from wiki gives us nothing about her personality. Only speculation of her where a bouts. You should have read a little farther down.
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  David, for your information, I don't "try" to reason with "god." I do state that no such god exists, except in the minds of those who wish to imagine one.
  You have your imagined "god" in your mind. That is your right to so believe, .... it's your free choice.
  However, it's not reasonable of you to ask me to accept what you believe, when I do not even accept the existence of a god. I am talking about a judgmental god here; the sort of god who apparently sits up on high somewhere, watching my every move, my ever thought, and who is going to punish me for not accepting unintelligent dribble based upon nothing less than human interpretations of ancient documents.
  I do not need such a theoretical entity in my life. I do not put my self up for judgement by such a tyrant. There are much bigger tyrants in this world, motivated by desire for power and control over fellow humans. I stand up against those who would monitor my mind like the "Big Brother."
  We all thought that "Big Brother" was referring to the USSR at the time of publication......yet, low and behold! He resides in the right-wing, control freaks of the fundamentalist churches.
  They seem to have you right under their thumbs.
  I do accept that there is some kind of "creating" force or influence that has contrived and constructed this beautiful finite world, of which I am conscious and able to experience. I stand in absolute awe of that force, yet I cannot know its nature. I just love it.
  report
  63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  From what I understand about the crusades, Catholics were involved. While Catholicism is conidered Christian because of belief in the birth, death and resturrection of Christ, there is no individual decision made to become a Christian. It is all about being a Catholic. Christian crusades should possibly be called Catholic crusades.
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  we were talking about "religious" wars, not specifically the protestant version of christianity.
  
  With the exception of the Eastern Orthodox church in the East and the Gnostics, aside from Catholicism, what christianity would there be? How do you think the reformation would be possible, if it were not for the catholics carrying on the religion for 1500 years? Who do you think preserved, copied and translated the scriptures?
  
  The fact of the matter is, without catholocism christianity would probably not exist today. Christians like to separate themselves from their catholic siblings due to their history, but the true separation is not done as easily as it is claimed.
  reply report
  59
  Davidsonofjesieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  in china and russia alone over 130 million of there own people and not counting korea,veitnam{no religion at all}
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  and which wars have china and russia had in 100 years that were begun because of an atheist?
  
  You're missing the point. Do you honestly think that the entire population of china and russia is made up of atheists? Just because a government is a secular one does not mean that the country is devoid of religion as a whole. The United States is a secular country, for example, yet 80% of the people in it have a religious belief. The government is not religious, but its people are.
  
  You're moving the goalposts. You said that, aside from afghanistan and iraq, there have been no religious wars in 100 years. Now you're moving on to the fact that there are secular countries that do "bad" things. It's not the same thing.
  reply report
  59
  Davidsonofjesieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  china and japan,russia and germany,north and south korea
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  now you're just listing countries - not wars.
  
  Your original question was what wars have been religious - and then you asserted (incorrectly) that atheists started almost all of the wars in the last century. You seem to be unable to prove your point, and that's why we've moved on to just naming secular countries.
  
  How many wars has Denmark or Sweden started? They're among the largest majority of atheists in the population - yet they seem to steer clear of wars altogether.
  report
  63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The separation was done because of disagreement. Throughout history people have taken a stand against what they felt was wrong. We are seeing that to a smaller degree in the House of Representatives Republican leadership. Children often take a stand against their parents. Many of my Caucasian and Hispanic students have talked about the racist views and attitudes of their parents.
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with everything you said. I don't know what it has to do with the rest of the conversation, though.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Would you agree Hitler started WW2? If so, Hitler was a documented Christian hell bent of punishing the Jews for what they did to Jesus.
  reply report
  59
  Vladimir Uhriposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sir, it was our sin who crucified Jesus,
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Don't be ridiculous, "Our" we had nothing to do with the death of Jesus. If it did happen it was more than 2000 years ago.
  reply report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Rad Man, this is amazing! 3662 posts and it's still going strong! "Never before, in human history, has to much drivel been spoken by so many born-agains to so many disbelievers."
  
  Can't believe I am seeing this!
  reply report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Johnny, the magnitude of the posts I found quite surprising. However, there are a lot of repeat sentences. I mean you only have a few arguments and the truth holds its own with just a few too. So, it has been a continuous circle of, "I know you are, but what am I? Maaajik???"
  reply report
  59
  Soul Man Dancerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And . . . on it goes, until the Lord comes back!
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  yep yep
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No, no. That heaven and that new life, and that eternity that you dream of is right here and now..... nothing to look forward to after your death. That will be the end of it for you and for me. So live the life now, you only have one chance.
  
  That person you call "Lord" spoke about it. He was enlightened in the understanding of truth; that Truth which has passed you by and left you deceived. As an enlightened person he could not, would not, have declared himself above everything and everyone. He would not have declared himself one with a god that was separate and superior. He would have spoken of his one-ness with all the world, in the company of you and me, as the servant to everything that is true. Not the silly, nonsensical religion that you follow and preach.
  
  From what we know, if anything of the New Testament is to believed, he lived and worked amongst the lowly, the poor, the rejected and lost. Those who shuffled around on their hands and knees, looking dirty and despised. Those who found no one else to give them respect and support. Why? Because he faced the world of the Here and Now. And he declared that it was easier for a camel to spit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter this Heaven of Here and Now.
  
  You narrow-minded gospelites have misconstrued everything that he said and he would be appalled (and saddened) at the way you have mis-interpreted what he had to say.
  
  I am not a christian, but I have so much respect for that man that supposedly walked the earth in Palestine.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You don't know!!!
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I feel sorry for you..... mis-informed, mistaken, missed the plot. And afraid to look any further because you might have to change your mind.
  
  People have got at you with so much make-believe, you cannot let go.
  
  Unless, of course, the others responding in this forum are much more knowledgeable than myself, and that you are a just a total sham. I don't know, so will go to bed now and rest. Life is a lot more than this particular Forum, I am glad to say.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Beautiful! I was starting to worry about you. Fresh air does one good
  
  I have to look no further. There is no truth truer to me. Please save your sorrow for the starving children, I am fine. Thanks I guess all those "mis"es made me miss your point again, I guess. Do you not have any MORE intellectual conversations to join?
  report
  60
  Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This post reminds me of a statement that Jesus made,
  A little levin spoils the barrel of flour.
  OR how much Un-Truth added to a truthful story renders the story valueless.
  Or something like that??
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  but the question becomes "can you prove that the story was true to begin with". If it comes to biblical teachings about/from jesus, the answer is no. You can't. You hope for it to be true. You want it to be true. You believe it to be true - but you can't prove it.
  report
  60
  Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What you say in this post holds some truth no matter what the subject matter, or to whom you speak.
  
  I do not understand many concepts on many different subjects; that in my heart I know is true. We all believe something which we can not prove. I will leave you to yours and I'll keep mine.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Now you are getting it. I just typed a similar phrase. Truth is truth.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  If you sit back and pull out your honesty, you will realize that you believe quite a few things you can't prove. Things become too rigid when we attempt to believe that we may "know" everything. God has secrets known to no man. You don't even know if you will live beyond the next 30 min.
  When I look at things in that light, I am humbled by all the other possibilities. I anchor myself in God; to me, he is the only "solid"...go figure.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you tell me what I believe in that I can't prove, since you're so certain. Ask god to tell you if you're uncertain.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow J., More vaudvillian techniques to see my father? He may never do "it" for you. You must FIRST believe that he is. And that he is a rewarder of they that diligently seek him.
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  More semantics?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Your intelligence far outweighs semantics.
  Uh, did you tell us what YOU believe in???
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  In a nutshell? I believe you are primarily interested in controlling the beliefs of others.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ha-ha!!! Cheated again...
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No Vaudville J. No matter how many different ways you request it.
  Our God just does not work that way. You can tell me what you believe. Wouldn't that be easier??? Maybe not...
  Nevertheless, he will soon reveal it to me, I'm sure, lets wait on it. So. Tell me what you think you believe.
  Please
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean? What I believe about what? Beliefs are different from faith and from trust.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, then it should be easy. Do not be afraid that I will poke a huge hole in YOUR theory of the "unprovable" ultimates. I will be nice see??? I will show you your faith, Sir.
  Do not be afraid.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I do not have any faith. I trust however that at some point you WILL stop calling me sir, since I'm a girl and all.
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That's a belief.. you cannot prove that it will happen... LOL I had to do it...LOL
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Lol I am hopeful that it will happen, and I TRUST that, once it is pointed out for the third time that it will actually sink in. That trust could be unfounded, and I could be wrong. It still isn't faith :-)
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Depends on the context. Contextually the two are synonymous
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  not really. Not if faith, according to the bible is "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1. Trust is based on prior experience, knowledge and understanding. I trust that my wife will be faithful to me because she always has been. She acts in a manner consistent with that trust.
  report
  55
  Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I trust that my Father will be faithful because He always has been. He acts in a manner consistent with that trust. Based on prior experience, knowledge, and understanding
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  and how can you demonstrate that trust in something you cannot see, prove, experience or interact with?
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh he sees, experiences, and interacts with this imaginary entity. It's very real, UNTIL he is asked to prove it. Then the anger comes because of the cognitive dissonance....that has to be assuaged.
  Delusion remains intact...
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Getitrite, you need to stop it with the psychological terms. You still have not explained why you waste so much time on "Pinocchio" What the heck to YOU believe in???
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  He probably baulks at that expression "believe in." I do, to. Within that expression is all that christian people accept.
  
  I prefer to say "I accept this, or that....." or I "don't accept this or that." I refuse to be drawn into the christian desire to dominate the beliefs of others. Christian people are free to accept whatever they wish.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Fair. I know that this conversation has been filled with silence about the perspective of the "opposing" view. Thanks. I have the idea that belief is a frightening term for you. Since you have been impregnated by "truth" from birth, it is necessary to "not" believe anything to put in its place.
  I am not here to force belief in anything. My purpose for this conversation is to find out what it is you do have faith in. Now, I know too that the word faith might be a bit too "churchy" for you so we have condensed to calling it belief. Now, you are mad about that? So, belief in nothing is actually our conclusion?
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, "belief" as used in the christian forums IS frightening to me. Why? Because your beliefs can be, and often are, used to judge people like me. Such beliefs have, throughout history, been used to subdue and suppress peoples. Beliefs have provided those who would dominate, a tool with which to condemn groups of people to prison, to the gallows, to humiliation, to excommunication, to banishment from the community. It's so convenient for the person with the belief to say to anyone who disagrees, "You need the Holy Ghost in order for you to understand." There is no valid argument against this, because the unseen, the unreal, the imagined "spirit" cannot be proven. This puts the believer on the side of "righteousness," but only for the safety of the believer.
  All your replies to me, and to others in this forum, have given us the impression that you, cgenaea, are on the right side, that you know what is good for us, in terms of your religious beliefs.
  If I had a sense that you were open to new information, open to possibilities that you are not totally in possession of all the facts, and that some things you believe might turn out to be wrong..... just open to the possibilities..... then I would be warmer to your points of view.
  On numerous occasions, when discussing with others who have similarly strong religious points of view, I have said clearly that I respect passionate beliefs and understandings, provided I am given like respect and tolerance by the religious person. That does happen! There are some very worthy people here who really do open up to other points of view. We develop enormous mutual respect. I don't have such respect for you yet. Keep trying if you will.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  U know me. I don't need your approval to be me and have my point of view. I ask and because I am convinced of my position and you, not so much, you kick and scream bloody murder. Well so what, Jonny! I still believe as I do. No problem if you have a problem believing anything. That does not phase, nor affect me. I don't need anger or irritation for this conversation. Only bible, and a little sense. (Ok, I admit "Emile," that my brain may be a little slower than yours. But I do have one )
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  But it is affecting you You are angry and bitter, it shows in your response! So, where is that anger and bitterness coming from? Not from what I and others write here.
  
  Much more likely it's coming from inside of your mind. You feel threatened, when really there is no threat. Unless the threat is that you might need to open you mind a little more and allow some fresh air into it.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Please provide an example of my "anger" and/or bitterness. Yes, evidence.
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  After all your replies to the other people here, why would I bother?!
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ha-ha, gotcha again!!!
  report
  55
  Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Anger? Why should I be angry? Who are you that I owe proof of anything? Do I know you personally? You believe what you want, I'll believe what I want. You seem to have problem with that. What is proof to me is proof enough for me. I'm the only one I have to prove anything too
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow.....
  
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Not one time, have you been verbally assaulted. Instead, you assault. But you don't know. Maybe you are auto-piloted. Maybe you are...
  think Pinocchio...
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  How is it an assault to ask someone for evidence of there assertions. He merely suggested anger would soon appear as it did with the "who are you to me, nobody..." stuff. It's been my experience that when pressed for evidence for miracles the response is either anger or the subject is changed. Which this was just another example. Ask someone who say they have direct dialogue with God to ask God to supply evidence of information about me so I can confirm it not just the person having dialogue with there own mind, and they disappear every time or I get "God doesn't work that way" when they just told me it does work that way.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  How can you ask for anything from one you do not believe exists??? While you ponder that, let me explain that I am not the type of person who would claim you are "no one" to me. You have a great deal of value to the one I believe in.
  It is not an assault to ask me for evidence of my assertions. The assault comes after I give explanation of what has been "evident" for me. Have you not been listening?
  Evidence is relative, in our situation. What is "evidence" to me is "hogwash" to you, and vice versa. Actually, I have NO evidence of what you believe. It seems that you are misled about who "disappears" when pressed. But I am patient.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's not evidence of any kind if it only happens in your mind. For instance, some claim to have conversation with God, but when pressed that God can't provide any information that the individual doesn't already have. There is a perfectly sound explanation for that, they are not talking with God, simply with themselves. Surely an all knowing God could provide evidence of his existence if he wanted me to believe his existence is in fact real. They change the subject or go away, they never expect anyone to call them on it, wether they know they are lying or not.
  
  How many televangelists after getting caught with their hand in the cookie jar, cry and say they spoke with God and God want us to forgive him. BS. They want us to forgive them.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever had the exact same dream from start to finish for three nights in a row??? Have you ever had a dream about something nearly impossible, and it occurred two years later? Have you ever been given a word on the inside of you and then heard that same statement repeated by many others from many different areas and many walks of life over the course of many years??? Have you ever been told to do something spiritual like pray for someone, and then receive the exact same unrelated and seemingly impossible gift that you were promised, after you did it? All these things have happened to me among many other seeming impossibilities that just don't happen to "realistic" individuals. I am convinced. I was being sent home from the emergency room following many tests for my ailment. I was vomitting repeatedly. The doctors did not know why. So they gave me a pill to settle my stomach. As I got dressed, I vomited the pill that was supposed to keep THAT from happening. Then I was told to undress again and I was sent for an ultrasound. I was 15. They saw a ruptured appendix and rushed me into surgery.
  To me, these experiences are supernatural. From God. To you, chance???
  report
  0
  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wonderful points! I have had many experiences like this... God deals with me repetitively like this too, I believe 'cause I am too thick to get things the first time.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, once you open to his prompting of come unto me... He reminds you over and over just why you did. he never leaves me hanging. But first you must believe that he exists. Faith the size of a mustard seed to ask him in the first place. The statement, "I know you don't exist Lord, so you gotta prove it to me that you do so I can believe." Does not fly. If you don't believe, you will never believe. You must believe enough to ask for proof.
  When you ask for proof without belief, you beat a dead horse. For when you get "proof", you give the "glory" to chance occurrence. You don't even believe it was he who performed. Therefore, God is still obscure. You got your "proof" but you denied the reality of the prover.
  Thanks for your comment!!!
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  But how do you know that any of that is god? Even more curious, how do you know which god?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ha-ha!!! did you see you give Gods glory away??? It is God, no one else can control your dreams, not even you. I know my God. I know how he performs. I know what he WILL do because he tells me first most often. Then he does it, marvelously and supernaturally, let me add. I know my God personally. He does speak. You just need to listen.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That avoids both questions entirely. I want to know how you know who should get the glory in the first place. If you're not honest enough to answer, there's no point in talking to you.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  J, you refuse to hear my responses to you. I agree, no point.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  But that's just it. You DIDN'T respond. All you said was "I know its my god because I said so". That's not an answer. That's toddler logic, and I don't think you would accept it from anyone else.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That was not my response. Toddler logic would state "You didn't answer me" when the answer is not like able. Remember??? I know my God personally. He reveals his plans often. That means, things that have not yet happened. I'm no future teller. But my God is.
  Funny, you came up with a made-up response from me. You a liar???
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Lol no, no I'm not. I would not, however, expect someone like you to believe me.
  
  How do you know your god is a future teller?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Because he tells me my future. You can deny making up a response that I gave; but false witness is a no-no. Though you do not care, it is wrong.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't make up your response. I rephrased it. Kind of like what you're doing now. Are YOU therefore a liar, since you're doing the exact same thing?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are kind of funny. I think that this has been a thrilling ride. I must commend you on your persistence. You are so familiar to me. It is like we have met before. In a different time.
  I am however, unmoved. You CANNOT convince me that my Lord is "me" I have too much experience. My life from a very young age has been my evidence. If you would like to hear more of that, I got'chu. But if it is your intent to "break" me, your time would be better spent with like-minded individuals. My question was answered by you long ago. Thanks...
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you think I'm trying to convince you of anything? I'm just asking you questions. Stop assuming things that you don't know to be true about me - or anything else.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  There she is
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Big deal, I can predict the lottery, I've done it twice and supplied evidence. Can you?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No, Rad man, no lottery predictions. I mean life. You keep trying to make me deal with numbers. I hate math man! Maybe a bit too precise. I never could get all those steps at the same time. But so??? Life is different than ping pong balls in a drum. Right?
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No, you can ether predict the future or you can not. I did and supplied evidence, can you?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Funny, and quite tantrum-ee. No, I cannot predict the future. But God can.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You just said you could, but when asked you can't. But God can...
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, you WERE driven nuts! jk...
  I did not say I can predict anything. God predicts many aspects of my earthly experience. Then brings the vision to fruition, as only he can. Stop trying to corner me RAD... You KNOW that aint possible.
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Not entirely different. Theoretically, the lottery is chosen at random by the ping pong balls rolling around and around until one number pops up. The odds of the specific number coming up is dependent on the rotation, number of balls in the drum, and how many balls have that specific number in the drum. There are some things that can be manipulated to suit a specific outcome, but for the things that cannot be manipulated, you are left to chance, or fate, or God's will (for those who believe).
  
  Life operates pretty much the same way. we can do as much as we can to manipulate certain situations to reach whatever outcome that we desire for ourselves and others, but there are some things that are simply outside of our control. So if our predictions are correct for something that is supposed to be random, How can we possibly know for sure whether it was just a random occurence or if it is the will of God?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Faith. I cannot explain it any better than I have. Sorry...
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  But You (a believer) stated you had several dreams and that you were able to predict the outcome of a woman's pregnancy and it was faith and God that did it (but no concrete proof).. Rad (an atheist) states that he predicted the lottery and can supply evidence and it can't possibly be true or it's "different"?
  
  HMMMM
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Hey! I said that God showed me my daughter in a dream 2years b4 she was born. He showed me her father too. I cannot predict anything. At times, The Lord shows me MY future. The other dream was prophetic as well. But I am not one who can direct my dreams. I hardly ever dream at all. Rad is gonna call me with that Powerball number. I am tired of being poor.
  Rad, do me right, now!!! Babyneedanewpairashoes!!!
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's always easy to say you predicted the future after it has happened. Try predicting the future before the future happens. Tell us something that will happen next week, but tell us now.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So I guess I will not get those numbers???
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/109812
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  on Monday, you will be here trying to convince me that God is not real.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  CGenaea, let me tell you a story and see if it sounds familiar. Actually, I'll do one better and tell you 2.
  
  1)
  --born of the virgin around December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
  --His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
  --He was of royal descent.
  --At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
  --baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
  --He had 12 desciples, two of who were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
  --He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris" Lazarus in latin), from the dead.
  --walked on water.
  --He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of."
  --transfigured on the Mount.
  --He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
  --He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God's Anointed Son," "the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
  --He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
  --He came to fulfill the Law.
  --called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
  
  2)
  --born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
  --He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
  --He had 12 companions or disciples.
  -- followers were promised immortality.
  --He performed miracles.
  -- sacrificed himself for world peace.
  --He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
  --His resurrection was celebrated every year.
  --He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
  --He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," [Word] "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
  --His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," t.
  --had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which he said, "He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
  
  Do either of these stories ring a bell with you?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Life. no man comes unto the father but by him, yes???
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  except neither of these stories are about Jesus - and they predate him by hundreds of years and had their own followers in the process. Jesus is hardly unique.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ha!!! I know that Jesus is the uniquest. Predate, schme-date.
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus did not say he was "God."..... the words as we have written in that book were "I AM" the way, the truth and the life.
  
  "I AM" is understood to be this moment, this here-and-now, the infinite Present. It is understood by all the great teachers and sages the world has ever known. That man Jesus of course, if we believe what is written in that book, was also a great teacher who knew the deep truth of "I AM."
  
  All meditation seeks the ultimate awareness of this Truth. And that awareness is available to each and every one of us. It is obtained via inner searching not religious practice. You can have a religious conviction in what ever way you choose. It can be christian, or muslim, or buddhist, or a devotion to any one of the god-like manifestations found in Hinduism, etc., etc. It is not necessary for you to discard your faith. The meditation can even enhance your religion, but meditation remains something of itself, standing apart from the religion.
  
  The "I AM" is that Love which your read about in Corinthians. It is never selfish and cannot be. It's union with and total integration with the One-Ness of the Universe.... pure Consciousness.
  report
  79
  Chris Nealposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I AM is also the name of God that He gave to Moses in the Desert, the first time that God had ever self-identified by name. That was why the guards at the Sanhedrin fell back when he said, "Before Moses was, I am!" instead of tearing into Him for earthly blasphemy.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. That is a good explanation of Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the life. He IS everything to me, along with my father. Without the sacrifice of Jesus. I would not be here. I have a lot of love and respect for him.
  Religion and ritual is silly to me. I have no need or desire for it. So many ritualize and ritualize and Jesus is far from their hearts. They like their fishnet stockngs and their new bibles for everyone to see. They Lord over their "riches" while the rest of the congregation starves. Church, you can have it. Religion, I don't want it. The Lord, however; I cannot live without him.
  report
  60
  bBereanposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Jonny, I understand you don't believe the bible, don't believe in God, or any god...but to say Jesus didn't claim to be God betrays a lack of knowledge of scripture. The diety of Jesus is well established in the bible, both old and new testament. On more than one occasion the Jews wanted to kill Jesus specifically because He made it clear to them that He and God were one, which for anyone but God would be blasphemy. Jesus also claimed His diety by His actions, accepting worship and forgiving sins, both of which were only for God to do.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well, not exactly. God and Jesus are one in spirit, idea, initiative, love, light, truth. They are two seperate entities. Jesus also stated many times his father, not himself. Jesus said, no man knows the day nor hour that he will return, save the father alone. Jesus made it clear that he was not doing his own work, but the father who sent him.
  report
  60
  bBereanposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So, to be clear then, you do not believe in the diety of Christ?
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Correct. Sorry, I realise that question was directed at Cgenaea
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, now. It was also clearly stated that once he ascended for the last time, he would "reign" WITH the father at his RIGHT HAND.
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sir, these statements are so simplistic that anything else you say cannot be taken seriously.
  
  "...don't believe the bible..." when it is a collection of writings so vast and complex, with metaphor, history, stories, myths being the main subjects throughout, how come the idea of "believing in it?"
  
  "...don't believe in God..." ---- not exactly! Specifically, I do not accept the concept, a human concept, of there existing a judgmental god, a sort of school master, or strict and punishing father, who constantly watches my every move and who will determine whether I can or will enter some theoretical after life. This is the entity from which all the fear and threat embedded in your religion comes. It comes from your desire to control, and I reject it totally.
  
  "...or any god..." ---- Drop the word "god." It again is a human concept and serves no useful purpose for me, although there are many who seem to need such an acceptance.
  
  When I read your Profile here in HubPages, it is clear that you do not want dissension. You want others to accept that you have "gone through the mill" of searching and come up with your own ideas about god. So your whole comment is biased towards your christianity.
  
  The possibility of some kind of creating consciousness or designer or creator? Yes, I am open to this..... it gives me no end of inspiration, awe and wonder.
  report
  60
  bBereanposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Jonny, I was under no illusion that you or any other unbeliever would take me seriously, nor am I really concerned with that...I was simply addressing the comment you made about Jesus claiming to be God.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You should get a standard textbook on Odds and Probabilities. You'd be surprise at how chance works, and how the odds of some things that you consider improbable are more probable than you think. Unlike your beliefs, math does not lie. You have not even looked at anything else except "Goddunit" I'm hoping that you can think on a level way beyond this uber-shallow level. This is only convincing to the hopelessly indoctrinated.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You stick with "chance". I cannot leave my walk through this life to chance. I know what works for me. And still... You don't.
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  There is just a chance, (a slim one at that), you will see some kind of sense and reason on your walk through make-believe. But then again, it is your choice, right?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm rubber and you're glue...
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, so what. They're dreams. Your subconscious dealing with something.
  
  deja vu happen and is a misfiring in the brain, making you think it's happened before, next time it happens remember that and it makes much more sense.
  I had my appendix taken out when I was twelve as well. I had a pain in my chest so my Dad took me the ER. They said I just made it. One month later I had the same pain and when I explained the pain to my Dad he told me it was heart burn. So what. This is what people alive say, my kids teacher died yesterday of a heart attack. A praying Christian, coach and guidance counsellor with a wife and a few kids. Those alive are the ones who make those claims, the dead ones can't.
  No not chance, but all are explainable.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Rad Man, you have lost ALL credibility.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Back to pushing buttons? I am starting to remember the way you worked.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are DEFINITELY a button pusher. Mine, don't work for you. I'm cool, calm, collected, and convinced of my position. You resort to other stuff like, my ideas are absurd. I can handle it. You get sensitive. you strike, and strike. But to see me unphased is upsetting to you. Relax. God's "got this".
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Before making that claim, you must deconstruct his argument. Sorry, but that's the way it works.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  He blatantly misspoke. Credibility lost. And you...same thing. You argue and argue about one of whom you have no belief. Kinda like, uh... Pinocchio???
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Pointing out the absurdity of an absurd statement is now verbal assault huh? Just how special do you think these worthless fraudulent beliefs are?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Absurdity too is a relative term. How can you say that my opinion is any less valid than yours? Could it have something to do with a superiority thing??? Are you "more smarter"? I am sure you laugh at my use of smarter in that sentence, but I can handle flack about my grammar too.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Your opinion lacks any semblance of validity at all. Reality often validates itself. I would hate to think that my world view was on par with adults who, basically, believe in magic and Santa Claus.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  To each, his own. Still homies???
  report
  55
  Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  My life to an extent is a personal matter. The ridicule, snide remarks, and cartoons, I expect. There are moments in my life, I am not willing to discuss right now in a public forum. Privately, some may be welcome. I don't know you. We have built no trust. I don't say this sarcastically. You're asking me to take you somewhere where only the lifelong associates ( they just happened to be there) and dearest people in my life have been. Granted, if you were a believer, for the esteem of the Father, call me, lets talk. But for someone who has shown nothing but a distaining, demeaning, disrespectful (Chris, give me a word ... I'm a good sport. Try this on for size. I KNOW there must be faith healing. Modern medicine has about a 20% healing rate. The witch doctor is at 20% also and he takes on all comers. Chemo here in America, has a survival rate after 5 yrs. (if you get that far) of about 2.1%, for stage 4, less than half of 1%, with surgery and radiation a little more or a little less. Fundamentally these rarely work. Worse, some drug treatments also promote the spread of cancer. The third leading killer in America, hospitals and doctors. Please Father, they know not what they do. It takes a lot of faith and a lot of prayer to get out of there alive I won't be back until tomorrow night, chill, it's my Shabbat. Shalum
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Last year, there was a woman who testified, no a man. He testified about God healing a cancer. He was so ridiculed. He was called a liar. All kinds of "evidence" was presented to state what doctors or simply time has done for some. Then put-downs for assuming to be in a superior position than those who died. Faith is not going to be accepted. Now how, no way; by many.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Show me who and where and when? I'd love to see the evidence.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yea, you just can't see evidence of MY faith. Though I know that you guys are totally equipped with evidence of all that you believe. But I am sure you have opinions about the unknown.
  I would not tell me either, if I were any one of you.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing Eh?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nothin...
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Cgenaea, you spend so much time here trying to defend your faith, that I am surprised you are not "out there" in the community, acting out your faith.
  
  Your need to defend says something about the tenacity and strength of your faith. Maybe all you are doing is trying to convince yourself of your faith.
  
  No wonder you are a bit neurotic over all of this.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh Jonny am convinced already. Don't you hear the way i speak??? I am not trying to convince you of anything. I have my convince and that is all I need. Can you ok the authority of my life to me. I believe me. I believe the Lord. Who do you believe???
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The tenacity of my faith is strong. Jonny, please explain why you believe that I am Neurotic? I am convinced of my faith. You call it neuroticism???
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  the 930+ followers of Jim Jones who poisoned themselves out of faith to him were all convinced that he was the second coming of jesus - so much so that they were willing to die for it. They claimed that he cured cancer, multiplied food and healed them. What would you call their faith?
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Grossly misplaced
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  (to play devil's advocate) why do you think their faith was misplaced? They saw miracles with their own eyes. They met the person that they followed. They knew without doubt that he existed. They had much more concrete evidence than a 2000 year old book, after all.
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What specific evidence did they have regarding the miracles that they saw? Just like David Koresh. It was a man that offered hope to the hopeless then capitalized on their need.....Yes, This sounds familiar...lol..
  
  I'm waiting on what I know is coming
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  you had a person, live on camera claiming that Jim Jones cured them of cancer. You had others relaying a story that they had first-hand of Jim realizing that they were about to run out of food - he then blessed the food (and referenced the New Testament as he did it) and there was suddenly enough food to feed everyone - and you had the testimony of people who witnessed it first-hand, not third, fourth or fifth hand, centuries later. That was enough for them to die for him.
  
  You also have people who are willing to fly planes into buildings or blow themselves up for their faith. Being willing to die for something doesn't make it true - these people already had their convince. :-)
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  :b to you too
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I've heard that before too
  
  +1
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  man is fallible, Faith in man is shaky, at best.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Those people had their faith in Jim. Man is fallible.
  report
  55
  Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I demonstrate that trust by my attitude and actions. To Him, it will show I appreciate His love, mercy and understanding. To you, you may be on the receiving end, from me, what I received from Him. Am I always successful from my end...I try Why do I have trust in Him? That's easy. I have experienced, seen, interacted with Him. He has proven Himself to ME (and as you can see from these forums, to others) and that's all He has to do, prove Himself to me. Will you accept my experiences as proof? I doubt it. Anyway, why should I have to prove Him to you? You can do that yourself
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  How does he prove himself to you?
  report
  55
  Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I've asked (some really tight spots) and have received. I've knocked (no where else to go) and the door was opened.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  that is incredibly vague. How about some specifics.
  report
  55
  Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are increditably nosey. Specifics, in due time. I don't have that trust in you yet
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  if I told you that a leprechaun was trustworthy because he has fulfilled my needs and been there for me when I need him because I talk to him daily, would you believe me?
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  To be sure, to be sure!
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I would.. Remember, your purple dragon poops leprechauns!!
  report
  55
  Robertr04posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The luck of the Irish. If it would help you through your day...why not?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, good thought. One must find proof for themselves.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  See, you have to have faith of it all since we are talking spiritual. God is there for us all. Most of us choose to look the other way because he does not come over for cards and coffee. However, interaction is possible daily. I know that too.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  if god is solely spiritual and not discernible in the natural world, how do you interact with it - and how do you know with certainty what it is that you are interacting with?
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You took the words right off my fingertips
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I did say depending on the context.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  you have "confidence" in your hope. And you have assurance of the unseen right here. Faith in your wife. However, there is no problem with calling it trust. I trust God. Some call it faith.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  faith is believing in something without discernible evidence. If you TRUST god and not have faith in him, then you have evidence - but unless that evidence is demonstrable and falsifiable then it does not qualify as "evidence" that would be sufficient to convince anyone other than you. then you run into the problem of redefining evidence to suit what you think you have, and not evidence for what it actually means - at least in scientific terms.
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am so sorry J. Please forgive. When I look at your name, I always see JM which leads me to Jim. Please forgive me.
  So, ok, you do not have faith. So please tell me, are you of the belief that what you "see" is what you get??? No ultimate truth...
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I think ultimate truth is primarily unknowable because our "knowledge" is limited by our perceptions, our hopes and our biases. A lot of children "know" that santa clause is real because they get presents on christmas morning. As they mature and grow up, they realize that santa isn't real. Yet back when they were younger, they knew it to be true. They were told it was true. What we KNOW to be true changes as we learn more, understand more and see more.
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  LALALALALALA I'm not listening!! Santa is real!! I've seen him
  report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  THAT's why he didn't turn up at my home this year! He was over visiting you, Deepes.
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I had to hold him for a while to ask about some of my wish list not getting fulfilled when I was a kid.. Sorry jonny
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And he IS everywhere on Christmas. He's in every major mall and grocery store everywhere, at the same time!!!
  report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have pictures of him and with him too!!
  report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, "proof" of Santa. Now do you believe, Nay-sayers??? We have proof!!!
  report
  60
  Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  They're coming back, they are seeking ,they are hungry, they want what there is available , however they expressing their desire to be fully satisfied somehow from the " opposite " direction .
  reply report
2. 58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think anyone is trying to take away your right to be indoctrinated or that you're unable to think for yourself, but that doesn't mean you're speaking about things as you see them, you aren't, you've been indoctrinated to speak that way.
  
  Uh, those reasons have been presented to you ad nauseum throughout your posting history here. How soon they forget.
  
  So that one day you might understand the indoctrination that has enslaved you. With many posts here, responses to your posts may be for the benefit of others who read them, considering those who respond may very well know you can't be convinced of anything beyond your belief system, that no amount of facts or evidence would ever change your mind.
  
  Yes, we know. So, don't be so surprised or shocked at more of the same.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And you are the loudest.
  We are not taken-aback by your rantings You are the one who flinches I am totally different from the way I was indoctrinated. Remember??? I have searched for what I consider the true messages. They often do not agree with the lies ai was told as a kid. But, the children (answered many times and denied) and indoctrination (answered many times and denied) are your strongpoints. Your ONLY strongpoints. That is why you cling to that. Stable? I don't think so, but you can stand right there for the rest of your days. I, on the other hand, will stand right here. God is good. He cares for 10cent birds we don't.
  reply report
  61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No wonder A Troubled Man is troubled he has been as indoctrinated as claims you are just with an alternate opinion on religion.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but I don't speak gibberish, could you please translate that into English?
  reply report
  59
  aries3296posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Happiness comes from within and should be proactive daily practice.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Was that what she said? Kewl.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ha ha ha ha. I didn't see that one coming.
  reply report
  61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I said you are as indoctrinated in your opinion as you say genaea is in Christianity. You are saying nothing Christians haven't heard for years, yet we still believe.
  reply report
3. 61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  There are several things going on here.
  
  Firstly, you said "because I believe in Jesus as the savior, I speak of it often."
  
  Then you said: "I am not the ultra pushy evangelizer who will visit you at your home uninvited"
  
  You don't have to be "ultra-pushy" to stimulate controversy. You certainly have the right to share your beliefs in a public forum, but others also have the right to challenge them.
  
  If you don't want to open yourself to a challenge, follow the lead of the Amish or the Orthodox Jews--they don't speak publicly of their beliefs at all, and nobody cares.
  
  Second, on this:
  "I am convinced of my position. Are you not convinced of yours?"
  
  One does not have to be tormented with an inner self-doubt to challenge someone they disagree with. I suppose if someone loudly spoke out against Jesus and the Bible in a public forum, you would have something to say about it. Does that mean you are "not convinced" of your position?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, no. I feel that people have rights to their own beliefs. If I see someone speaking loudly against Jesus, or what I believe, I keep walking. Here, i am visited by the opposition. Now, ultra-pushy Christians, to me, do violate rights. Knocking on my door to spread the "gospel" is not polite in my opinion. But maybe some would not hear w/o that that type of evangelism at all. God knows best. I just wonder why the name Jesus causes so much anger and bitterness. But, my answer is quite clear. Had I taken more time to think before asking my question, I would have heard the Spirit say, "Because Satan has many more followers" much earlier. The name Jesus is scary to the adversary. He don't want it uttered. I get that now.
  reply report
  61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Again, this is a public forum. Not a private one. You have the right to voice your opinion publicly, and others do as well. It's a two-way street.
  
  Knocking on people's doors may be impolite, but it is not a violation of anyone's rights. If somebody doesn't like living in a pluralistic society, I guess they can always go live on a compound in the woods where everyone thinks the same way (such as the Amish or the Orthodox Jews or Fundamentalist Mormons as I mentioned).
  
  The name "Jesus" certainly doesn't bother me. In fact, I use it all the time in various situations.
  
  The problem for many is the self-righteous, demeaning holier-than-thou tone of much of Christianity.
  
  As Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians."
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well, the name Jesus (or whatever your language prefers) is, for sure the hot topic. Yes, this is a public forum. I did not say that it wasn't. I only said that we CHOOSE what we respond to. We may read the topic even before reading the first line of any topic. Me? I CHOOSE to stick to subjects that I am interested in. I am not interested in stuff that I do not believe in. So, we have two options in this case, for your behavior. Either you don't believe in God and you "just came to tell me how ridiculous I am", which says a lot about you as a person; or, you want to believe, so you come to be convinced. Which species art thou???
  reply report
  61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No, I don't think anybody cares about the name "Jesus." It's just a word.
  
  It's about the reputation that many Christians have created for themselves through their behavior in pluralistic societies. That's what Gandhi pointed out.
  
  The problem today is caused by Evangelicals trying to teach creationism in public schools, trying to impose their moral values on others through government fiat, etc. That angers a lot of people who don't share those values. That is why many non-Christians have a bad image of your religion.
  
  I didn't come to "tell you how ridiculous you are," I came to answer your question in the OP. Whether you receive it (good Christian term) or not, is up to you.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Keep watching. The name Jesus is powerful. The name upsets the world. For sure, some have misinterpreted or misconstrued the words he spoke in an attempt to push selfish agenda, but that cannot be attributed to Jesus or God. They agree. We must find a way to agree along those lines, if we are spiritual. Since you were kind enough to answer my question, so far away from your comfort zone, I thank you. Your opinion on this matter is greatly appreciated! I know it must have taken a lot out of you to come to a Christian discussion to share your views.
  Fyi...not all Christians are going to hell for sure, quite a few of us will be first in line because of our disloyalty. But you seem to be labeling, stigmatizing, and being quite prejudicial. Not ALL of any group are the same.
  reply report
  61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I appreciate your kind words. But there's no stigmatizing or prejudice here, just analysis and explanation. You asked, so I answered. As a Christian, you may not quite get just how intrusive and tiring the religious right have been in the US (although not recently, since economic issues are the dominant theme in the election today). But it's real. To say nothing of the general pervasive Christian motifs in public life in this country, from "in God we trust" on the currency to "God bless America" at the end of every political speech.
  
  Take a look through my hubs (you are welcome to comment because I do not discourage people who disagree with me). You will see I've studied these issues extensively and have plenty of information behind my opinions. Yes, there are many fine, humble, tolerant Christians. No doubt. But there are also many prejudicial, hateful, self-righteous and oppressive.
  
  So if you want to understand why so many non-Christians have such animosity, often emotional and irrational, you must understand the very real situation in the public square in this country.
  
  Now, if we look at Europe, we see a totally different situation. There, there is no "religious right" per se, no large groups of Christians actively try to impose themselves on broader society, and religious belief is nowhere near as significant in culture or (certainly) politics. Populations are much more secular. As a result, there is not the highly-charged atmosphere around religion or Christianity as there is here.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  From what I have gathered, Christians are persecuted just about everywhere. We are pretty much free to express our Christianity here; as we are free to express strict non belief. However, it seems that God has been a force in this country at least as long as I have been alive. I have never seen an American coin w/o the phrase you mentioned. As well, the phrase at the end of political speeches that you mentioned has been uttered at least since I have been here (close to 40 years). The oppression of Christianity is a NEW phenomenon in this country. We have decided that there is too much freedom for the Christian within our borders??? No MORE room for God??? We are tired of Spirit now??? We are irritated by words on the money that we spend NOW??? We hate our pledge NOW because it includes the words "one nation under God"??? I remember saying "the pledge" in grammar school. I also remember some not being ABLE to say it, until EVERYONE was UNABLE to say it. Now, Americans who joined this country or were born in it, like our freedoms, but don't like our God??? So they keep freedom (which came from our belief in God) and want to "chuck" the reason for the freedom??? you laughing yet???
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am laughing. Oppression of Christianity? Your ignorance of the history of your country notwithstanding, I think your are misusing the word "oppression."
  
  Is it true that Atheists in America are not allowed to hold government office?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  See, you said ignorance!!! and nothing else
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You do seem to be ignorant of a number of things.
  
  The fact that you ignored my point to whine again does not mean I didn't say anything.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are ignorant to many things too. So now that we have that established..
  report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but I tend not to express an opinion on things I know nothing about.
  
  Oppressed much?
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Now, you have the floor. Explain please.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, suppression! Better??? Christianity is under attack in this country. It was not always that way.
  Ignorance of my country??? Wanna explain your point?
  Atheists are barred from running our country??? Did you read all those quotes presented by those "running" and "posing" as Christian??? Obviously not followers based upon the quotes of Christ???
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So - that was a "yes" - atheists are forbidden from holding public office?
  
  Remember when Christianity was not under attack?
  
  Ahh - Segregation and slavery - yes?
  
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow!!! That was an eerie man at the end of your "vignette". Christians should shut the fuck up??? Yep, that is my point. Now yours?
  report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry you didn't understand. Hardly surprising.
  
  You want slavery back? How odd.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Did I just say that? So, NOW Christianity is equal to slavery??? let me get my pen... Ok, go!!!
  report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently you have not read the bible.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Mark!!! Apparently, you missed the RED letters.
  report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, there are some 38,000 denominations of Christianity with a church on almost every corner.
  
  How is that suppression?
  
  Is Christianity not trying to suppress the freedoms of gays, the choice of women on abortion and contraception?
  
  And, when Christians constantly utter threats that we're going to burn in a lake of fire for eternity because we're evil, how is Christianity being attacked?
  
  It seems all you complain about is what Christianity is achieving itself.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Not only Christians are prolife. Not only Christians have a church. Yes, in my opinion, Christianity has ALWAYS been this country's "dominant" religion. I have said it before. But, I always get flack from somewhere. There was one who argued me down on this country NOT being a Christian-dominated society. They had "proof" too. This conversation can become circular because I find that my opponents attack from ALL sides. They become confused. They say what is necessary to "win" in their eyes. Their only stance is, genaea, that's wrong! They stand for "whatever" else.
  I am with you This is a Christian-dominated society. We are attacking that, NOW. You agree?
  report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  From where did you gather that, your imagination?
  
  Are you now saying YOUR God is the American God?
  reply report
  80
  psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Persecuted?
  
  Only if you define "persecuted" as "not coddled and treated as better than everyone else".
  
  Every group of people sometimes faces issues. But in the US they are seriously negligible to anyone with a sense of proportion. Sermonizing at people while they stay silent is not a right.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Right, not coddled. Also, called names, intruded upon by "little foxes" regularly, yelled at.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Do you know what you are saying at all??? You are just picking. Do you have a purpose??? Maybe you should stick to what you know. Did you count up how many you personally watched???
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I've read and studied the bible in depth repeatedly, and I'm an atheist. Seemingly, however, it's unfortunate that I appear to know it better than you. Not only is slavery okay in the bible, it is thoroughly discussed. God gives commandments about how often and how severely you can beat your slaves - if they don't die within a few days (but die later on as a result of their injuries) it's okay. It goes into great depth about who you can own - other jews can only be owned for a period of seven years (unless you give them a wife that they don't want to leave when the seven years are up - then you can own them forever). Gentiles (see anyone who is non-jewish) can be owned forever and passed on as property to your children.
  
  Slavery is not only discussed in the Old Testament, in case you were going to say the Old Testament doesn't count anymore. Paul discusses slavery in depth as well, and even goes as far as to say that slaves should obey their masters - even the cruel and brutal ones - and that christian slaves should not try to run away, escape or fight back.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Am I missing your point??? Jesus came to bring abundant life. Jesus called us ALL to be servants. I thought you said you read the bible. i am not moved by your statement. Have you forgotten that most Americans "report" to someone, everyday??? We still have "masters" to obey. And work to do "as unto God.
  You needed a good adrenaline pump today?
  I hope it was effective
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  my point is simple, and you seem to be missing it. Someone else equated christianity with slavery, and you seemed incredulous that the connection should be made, so I linked the two unarguably. The bible (in both testaments) not only endorses, but promotes slavery.
  
  We're all supposed to be servants? You have no problem with someone beating you within an inch of your life then? You have no idea considering yourself the property of another human being - not a deity?
  
  Slavery cannot possibly be compared to going to work and having a boss. They don't own you. They don't tell you that you're less than human and that you're property. That's a very silly comparison to make.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Now you are most funny
  When you add the love of Christ, you realize how easily the term servant has a different connotation. Jesus served the entire time he lived. And he provided for those who followed. I don't know the reason that God added those laws. He probably just KNOWS better. I hear his message. I am not demanding that you do. Jesus make you mad too???
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  no, jesus doesn't make me mad. In fact, there is lots of evidence to suggest that jesus never actually existed. Santa doesn't make me mad either. Fictitious characters don't typically upset me much.
  
  Servant is not the same thing as a slave. Seriously. Are you saying that slavery is moral? That's the euthyphro's dilemma. Basically speaking, Euthyphro states the question: does god command something because it is moral, or is something moral because it is commanded by god? Can you think of ANY reason where slavery is moral, good or right? Seriously? What possible reason could it be considered moral to enslave another human being - who god also supposedly loves.
  
  What did I say that was so funny? I don't see the joke.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The funny is in your insistence. Slavery is not authorized. Jesus came to break those chains. Slavery in the new testament is different. What's your beef?
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  and where does it say that jesus came to break the chains of slavery? Paul, the author of the large majority of the new testament does not say anything about no more slavery. Again (and I've pointed this out before) Paul advises his readers to submit to their masters and obey them - even if they beat or mistreat you.
  
  Doesn't sound like chains being broken
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  "Vengence is mine," says the Lord, "I will repay!" We mess our own thoughts and feelings up with trying to get someone for being mean. We have to try to not be side-tracked by anger or revenge. Needless to say, we have masters everywhere. Jesus claimed to be "the master" yet he served those around him all the time. Arguing over "words" is another carefully crafted trap. The spirit of God informs me that slavery is wrong. The bible was written a few years before I was born, i really do not understand the culture of things back then. Slavery seems to me to have been commonplace. But now, I am free!!! Free, I tell ya and I will be speaking it like it is.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  so slavery is okay because it was a different culture? That doesn't answer the question. Do you find slavery to be moral?
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No. Slavery is immoral. But here within our borders is tons of it. Let's get some signs. I know many operations that we may encircle in protest. God knows the truth. People do what they do. The bible is for believers. Stop perpetratin' it is mystical to them who do not believe.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  also, if the spirit of god is telling you that slavery is wrong, then the spirit of god is contradicting what you believe to be the word of god. If god is any one of the omni's presented in the bible (omnipresent, omnipotent, benevolent, etc...) then god is incapable of changing. he remains the same. that means that he can't contradict himself - and if he does, then he is not god.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Then it is so for you. And always will be.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What a callous, nonsensical, flippant way to just totally excuse slavery. This proves, without a doubt that religion is nothing more than brainwashing. Believers will accept ANYTHING, no matter how immoral, as long as they feel that they are pleasing this psychotic, bloodthirsty beast they call GOD. Believers become mere tools for the government to mold just as they please, because the God you worship is nothing more than your government. If you lived in some other countries(middle east) you would be a devout Muslim, full of the same fear that you have for the imaginary Christian god.
  
  My great grandparents were slaves, and I find your comments ALARMING!, and completely insulting.
  
  As a black American, I can never be a Christian. It would mean that I have allowed myself to be defeated. To me, emancipation doesn't mean just being physically released from chains, it also means having the mental awareness to reach for the full potential that freedom suggests...
  
  Believing what someone else wants you to believe is certainly not freedom. That's just slavery.
  report
  61
  recommend1posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This is about right - except that fundies would worship a stick with feathers on it if they had been brought up with it - being dim as a 20W light bulb makes it hard for them to see outside themselves.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. Who wants to open up their psyche and explain what they have found to be the truth??? Huh??? Anybody???
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am shocked!!! Gimmie a sec.
  Whai I tell you has nothing at all to do with excusing slavery. I have great grand-parents who owned slaves. But I am not in that place at all. Slaves are no longer owned; please remind me how it keeps entering this... Oh! Y'all think the Lord wants you to return to slavery. No! Don't be ridiculous We are free getitright. And you never really responded to my questions of what you do believe. I bet it is much more ridiculous.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It will keep entering the debate, because you have not given an honest answer. Everything you have said is simply numbo jumbo. Your god is ok with slavery. It LITERALLY says so in the bible. You think your god is perfect, and worthy of worship. Hence, you think slavery is just GREAT!
  
  There is no "LORD" ...but the Bronze Age savages who wrote your insane bible would be totally in support of returning us to slavery. They would also return women to being "property" just like in those backward, oppressive Islamic countries.
  
  When you garner enough courage to think for yourself, then, and only then, will you be free. Believing in the nonsense that your government has commanded you to is not freedom. Believers are all enslaved, as they don't possess the fortitude to defeat their masters. You have more than proven this, by defending this nonsense, even while sacrificing your own morals.
  
  genaea, this exercise has been tried before. It is you asserting the nonsensical premise, therefore it is you who bear the responsibility to prove your assertions to be sound.
  
  I simply don't see any evidence to support the existence of a god. Period. Now go ahead and prove to me just how illogical that is? And by doing so, I'm sure you will soothe the cognitive dissonance caused by your fairy tale beliefs.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Haaa-ha!!! Somebody taught you some words!!!
  Listen, the words that you speak are just that. You have this idea that you have NOT been brainwashed. Think for yourself. Believe all the OTHER books you've read. I aint got no problem wit dat!
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Just because you can't counter with anything reasonable, doesn't mean you have to get downright irrelevant.
  
  Please stop creating strawman fallacies, and admit that your beliefs are silly, childish fairy tales. This is not about reading books, but about the nonsense that you are trying to assert as truth. You cannot give your silly beliefs any more veracity by attempting to prove that reason is flawed as well. Your position is one of sheer desperation.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have no reason to be desperate I know I speak truth when I speak. I am pointing out to you that logic is more irrelevant. Cognitive dissonance, is not a common term. You are PROVING your "worth" by uttering 40 dollar words? God wants you to believe in him but he does not require it. I believe what I say with all my heart. You believe "whatever" else
  You think for yourself, but you had to get your contradicting opinion from somewhere. Right??? Have you conducted any of your own calculations, or excavations looking for God? Or did you just take what you HEARD at face value??? You don't believe in God. Why are you in a conversation about "PINOCCHIO"??? Free speech?
  Do not invite me to your Tooth Fairy forum, I aint comin'
  report
  61
  A Troubled Trollposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You believe with your heart?
  Or say with your heart?
  How can a pumping organ do either?
  Are you, me?
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am you next month. (I say to your Freudian slip )
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yet here you are trying desperately to defend a completely indefensible insane premise. Pinocchio?
  
  Yet all of your assertions are based on a book of lies. Huh? Go figure.
  
  Have fun driving yourself to madness!
  
  Cognitive Dissonance?
  
  cognitive dissonance is used to describe the feeling of discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs. When there is a discrepancy between beliefs and behaviors, something must change in order to eliminate or reduce the dissonance.
  
  There are three key strategies to reduce or minimize cognitive dissonance:
  
  1. Focus on more supportive beliefs that outweigh the dissonant belief or behavior.
  2. Reduce the importance of the conflicting belief.
  3. Change the conflicting belief so that it is consistent with other beliefs or behaviors.
  
  Wow! You mean I don't have to go to hell now?
  
  Of course I have conducted my own observations. I became an atheist, before I even knew there was such a term. You don't really grasp the term free thinker, because you are viewing life from a state of perpetual subordination.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh bless you! Ye who has explained cog dissonance so fluidly, then in your next post, you question about the fake/phoney/impossible hell. Can you please calm yourself and watch your actions. Listen to your words.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You must look for God inside you. He reserved a spot for himself there.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm just browsing the forum in general, but your post struck a chord. You may have addressed this in a later post that I haven't gotten to yet, and if that's the case, I apologize for my redundancy.
  
  You said "The oppression of christianity is a new phenomenon in this country"
  
  Christians are not being oppressed or persecuted in the United States, and they rarely (if ever) were. Why do christians see dissent or disagreement as persecution? No one is forcing christians to convert to another religion. No one is forcing christians to do things against their will. No one is forcing christians to stop going to church, or arresting them for their beliefs. THAT is oppression and persecution, and that is most certainly NOT happening.
  
  The religious right of this country are first to promote their right to free speech, but as soon as someone disagrees with their right to make laws based on their own personal faith, they cry persecution or a violation of their free speech or freedom of religion. The thing is that free speech goes both ways. People who do not agree with christianity have just as much right to state their opinions as the christians do. To call it persecution is in essence crying "wolf" just to gain attention.
  
  More and more people are calling for the separation of church and state, which was a founding principle in this country back to the beginning. You may not remember a time when "in god we trust" was not on the money, or that "under god" was included in the pledge of allegiance - but both of them are relatively NEW additions. They were added during the red scare - when the country was afraid that it would be attacked by the communists of Russia - in the 1950's. Before then, god was simply not mentioned.
  
  Political pundits on both sides of the fence have a tendency to believe that pandering to the religious right will win them votes, but faith should have nothing to do with who we elect. There should be no test of faith required in order to be elected. This country was not founded as a christian nation, nor is it one now. It's a secular nation. The majority happens to be christians - for now. More and more people with varying beliefs are simply starting to step forward and voice their dissent - something that they have a definitive right to do.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you to an extent. I went all the way back to before there was an America. The "settlers" lured the people with a Christianity that contained their "spin". Right??? The "missionaries" "visited" to acquire... I mean tell the world about the "love" of Jesus. They even whipped it into most of the backs of their new acquisit... I mean those they were "helping" to "civilize" with blood??? Now I could be wrong, but I am sure that the original new American nation settlers were sometimes called missionaries? Who spread Christianity. Let me get my books.
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Technically, they weren't missionarries. The thing that makes it so ironic is that they were victims themselves - they fled England and other European countries because their protestantism or puritanism was being persecuted by the predominantly catholic countries of their origin.
  
  They mutilated, enslaved, tortured and killed the indigenous American people, not to mention the spread of disease which wiped out native Americans in droves. Pilgrims forced the natives to convert or die - a concept that has been put into place by all sorts of christians throughout history - see the crusades, the inquisition, the witch hunts, the persecution of children to the present in Africa. christianity is a religion of blood, and has has a brutal and bloody history that cannot simply be dismissed away.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The blood of Jesus! People miss that. The bloodshed comes from man. Or maybe the Lord allows it for a purpose. Either way, God left instruction. Some/ maybe most flunk.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What about the blood of jesus, if he existed to be able to bleed at all? what's the point?
  
  The bloodshed does come from other human beings, but throughout the history of the judeo-christian god, it has been ordered on behalf of the deity. Did you miss the old testament when god commanded the jews to kill every man, woman and child of tribes that stood in their way in the conquest of canaan? Or the fact that god commanded them to slice open the bellies of pregnant women and kill both them and their unborn child? How about the god who sent two bears to mutilate and kill 42 children simply because they called Elisha bald? How about the god who was opposed to human sacrifice (at least according to the law) but commanded abraham to murder his son - and then changed his mind. Jeptha's daughter was not so lucky, however. Jeptha made a deal with god and agreed to sacrifice the first thing to greet him upon his return home if god would deliver his enemies. It happened to be his daughter - and god seemed silent on the subject, so jeptha murdered her for simply welcoming her father home from battle.
  
  Did jesus not say that he came not to bring peace but a sword and turn man against his brother? The bloodshed may come from man, but it's because man is following gods word. All of the crusaders were told that killing a muslim wasn't murder, it was the will of god and that their sins would be forgiven. the inquisitors burned thousands of jews, muslims, protestants and "witches" in fires due to the will of god. The muslim attackers of september 11th believed they were acting in the will of god. George Bush sent the United States to war in Iraq and Afghanistan as a "crusade" Are you saying none of these people were "true christians"? Who are you to determine that? They're behaving in accordance with the bible. It's the "no true Scotsman" fallacy at its truest form.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. You are bitter; though you are no different from any other rejector. You can take the realities of scripture and believe what you wish. I am Christian. I don't kill people. I know it is not right. Jesus spoke in parables. Mother against daughter is parabolic for one believes his message and one does not. In this case, they are "opposed" in opinion see? Jesus did not advocate war. He told us to stop fighting and extent ourselves for the good of all. To be kind, even to those who hurt us. You can stick your mind to war all you want. It is a strategically planned stumbling block. But it won't get in my way.
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  where do you get bitter from? I'm not the least bit bitter, actually. Pointing out that science, history and even religious scholars question the person-hood of jesus does not make one bitter - it makes one informed.
  
  Here's a question. How do you know which of jesus' reported teachings were parables, and which were not? Who decides which goes where? Why don't you kill people? The bible commands it, and you follow the bible, don't you? god himself commands killing. Do you advocate the death penalty? If you do, you advocate killing.
  
  The realities of scripture? Which realities, and how do you know their real? It boils down to the fact that you believe what you want to believe because you believe it - regardless of any evidence against it and the lack of evidence for it.
  
  Red Herring: I am not speaking about war, I'm speaking about killing. What exactly are you claiming is a stumbling block?
  
  And no, in response to your other post - atheists don't cause harm. Atheism, since you don't seem to understand what it means, is nothing more than a lack of belief in a god claim. You yourself are an atheist if you reject the muslim claim of a god named alah. You have a lack of belief in that particular god, therefore you are an atheist in regards to islam. How do you not see this?
  
  I would like to know how atheists cause harm, simply from disbelief.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Whew! That was a mouthful and it seems as if we turned a couple of times. Let me touch what I can. You seem bitter that the bible says that war and slavery are good. It does not. Also, when you believe what God says, you know his character. I know him to be a God of love. But that is because I'm up close the bible says that those who are not spiritually minded are oblivious to the true messages of the bible. But it is so with everything you decide to believe. Take your own beliefs for instance. No one can convince you that God is not all for war. You have decided that what you read points to that fact. All of my witness, when spoken to you, falls on deaf ears. I know the character of God because I had just enough faith to ask him to show himself to me. He came. He told me what I needed to know. He sent witnesses. You cannot convince me that I am crazy. I have already assessed the situation myself with good result. And if you want to talk IQ, I surpass many the question that I find hard to get an answer for from those who don't believe is: What do you believe??? Any response you give comes along with questions. No belief is airtight. I can blow a gaping hole in all your theories as well, but I bet you are not open for that huh??? Go ahead, be the first
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  how can you possibly say that the bible does not endorse slavery, murder and war? Have you READ it? Do I need to list specific chapter and verse for you to understand that I know what I'm talking about here? I'm not bitter - I'm incredulous that you simply have no concept of what your own book says about slavery and genocide.
  
  Where do you get the notion of god being a god of love? The god of the old testament, firstly named El was actually a god of war. Some history may be beneficial. The god portrayed by the jewish torah in the old testament is VASTLY different than the god portrayed as the father of jesus in the new testament. It's like he's schizophrenic.
  
  When did I call you crazy? you're seeing insults where none exist in reality. I think your beliefs are unfounded and dubious, but that's a challenge to your beliefs - not to you as a person. You have the right to believe anything you want.
  
  What witnesses? I'm listening to everything you're writing and responding. Deaf ears would mean that I can't hear you or understand what you're saying. That's simply not the case. I did not question your IQ or bring it up at all.
  
  I am fully open to my beliefs being challenged, so that's really not a problem. What do I believe? In regards to what? I believe in many different things - I just don't have a belief in a god. Why is that difficult to understand? Which of my beliefs are you referring to?
  
  If you say "I can blow gaping holes in your beliefs as well" that would indicate that I have blown holes in your beliefs, but you're adamantly reasserting that you're not shaken in the least. Incidentally, I'm not trying to destroy your beliefs or change your mind. Simply posting in an open forum in which you posed a question and challenging some assertions that you made that simply aren't true. Free speech and all. In the meantime, you bring up repeatedly that christians are being persecuted, that you're insulted and called names, but I have done none of that. But you called me bitter, silly etc. Seems to me the shoe is on the wrong foot, here.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, so you are not bitter... It seems that you have something against me. I am not your enemy. Belief in no God is ok. How did you get here (you know what I mean)? How did you stop at a forum about "Pinocchio"? You too were drawn. Why? Again I say, there was no red "must participate" warning in the OP (maybe I should check to be sure). I do not participate in atheistic forums. They do not interest me in the least.
  Ready? Go.
  report
  61
  recommend1posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You shouldn't rise to the inane questioning and word twisting, let alone the inane point of view behind it all - or you might lose patience and call it what it actually is and collect a three month ban like others here. The MO is snipe and irritate until you reply a little harshly and then report you. Get out while the going is good buddy
  report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  thanks for the tip. I'm keeping my calm - people like this simply don't get to me - I've had to develop a rather thick skin or else I wouldn't be in the profession of debating. Thanks for he heads up, though - duly noted.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for your recommendation I have never reported a soul. I can take all the filth-flarn-filth you can muster; and still paste you a because I don't give a hoot how you act. But I wanna be right.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wanna move to Europe???
  reply report
  61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have lived in Europe, maybe some day I will live there again. But I like the US just fine. Doesn't mean it is a flawless country.
  
  It will be very hard for you to understand why people vehemently disagree with you about God and religion in public life until you take a step back and try to understand a different perspective.
  
  From your perspective, you believe God is the source of freedom and justice. That's fine, you can believe whatever you want. But millions of people in this country have a totally different perspective, and they live here too. So they have a say in how their country is run just like you.
  
  It may be hard for you to get someone else's point of view if you just automatically dismiss it as evil, from the Devil, etc.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It seems as if you are dismissing God. I know that this country would not be what it is w/o the views that it started with. Though we don't all agree, this WORLD belongs to God. Public life is for God. Private life, for God. You may believe what you wish. He gave you that right as he did your mother Eve
  Just so ya know... I am never "upset" by the objections to my faith. I am only surprised that there are so many People have a right to choose as they wish. But so do I. You are only subjected to it now because you chose to. There were no red "must read/participate" notices in the OP . But I am glad to have spoken to you.
  reply report
  61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not talking about in these forums, I'm talking about in the larger culture/ American society, where Christianity and Christian themes and motifs are given default preference.
  
  I never said you were upset. I reiterate, it will be hard if not impossible for you to get other people's perspectives on these social and cultural issues as long as you continue to frame it in a binary good/ evil manner. You originally indicated you wanted to understand people. That's how you start.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Now see??? The "binary good/evil box" is opened by you on this forum, though I am sure that someone else mentioned it before. I am not trying to persuede you over to Christianity. I asked the question because since I have participated in these discussions, I have noticed a marked increase in objectionable behavior toward me, simply because of my faith. And I am really "laid-back". I find it hard to "defend" myself in a physical altercation Being disrespected and belittled is the "Christian" presence on this site, it seems. There were so many "silly" arguments that I wondered if there was a way to find peace and discuss the issues in a manner that merges into some type of harmony. Not agreement, of course but harmony.
  The dominant opinion seems to be that the Christian is pushy and self-righteous. Well, that could not be further from a good description of me. However, I have been the "victim" of pushy and self-righteous nonChristians on these forums, because of my view. It is kinda funny aint never really suffered prejudices, to my knowledge; as odd as that may seem.
  report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think it has anything to do with your "faith." More to do with your self righteous attitude and total lack of respect for any one else. Plus the "woe is me, I am being oppressed," martyr attitude that seems to be so prevalent amongst your belief system.
  
  This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
  
  Let me know when you have read your bible and tell me what Jesus said about slavery.
  
  "If you are not against slavery, you are for it." rings a bell.
  report
  61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Genaea:
  
  The "binary good/evil box" is opened by you on this forum
  
  Certainly not. It was begun by you. You said earlier:
  
  I just wonder why the name Jesus causes so much anger and bitterness. But, my answer is quite clear. Had I taken more time to think before asking my question, I would have heard the Spirit say, "Because Satan has many more followers" much earlier. The name Jesus is scary to the adversary. He don't want it uttered. I get that now.
  
  You also specifically said that God was a force for good in the US. So you clearly drew the distinction between God and his followers (the good guys), and those who disagree or are uncomfortable with God in the public square (the bad guys, related to Satan).
  
  In any case, there are pushy and self-righteous people all around, everywhere. I agree with that. But Christianity has a much longer and stronger tradition of it.
  
  If you are interested, there are some Christian groups that focus on engaging peacefully with secular people and people of other faiths, supporting the separation of church and state, etc. I think those groups are a good model for all believers in a pluralistic culture. Of course, they tend to not view others as hell-bound heathens in the service of Satan
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You misunderstood my phrases. God was the force/ source of freedom, if I remember correctly. Not necessarily good or bad, depending on who's looking
  Also, my wonder was at the fact that Jesus (you said good, thankyou, I forgot was so hated. I realized that it was because his adversary (satan) has more followers. That to me is a legitimate argument, wouldn't you say? You did the good/bad thing. I compared my position to most others on this forum. And the name Jesus raises neck hairs. More obvious to me now than ever.
  Just a note... I consider no one a hell-bound heathen. And I know you did not get that from listening to me. see how people just make-up stuff about me??? Hmmm...expected. I forgot; carry on
  report
  61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  If it was a miscommunication, no big deal.
  
  But again, Jesus is not the issue. His followers are.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  All of them???
  report
  61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The problem with creationism is not evangelical. The problem is Both Theories were taught until recently when someone decided to forget that they were called Theories not a conclusive scientific fact. Creationism doesn't disprove evolution and evolution doesn't disprove creationism. They can coexist.
  There was the statement in the '70s that we were going to lose our little fingers and little toes because we had evolve to a place where we don't need them any more. Has this come to pass. No, does that mean that evolution is a myth? Of course not.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  How does that work considering Creationism states that all living things were placed here by God in the form they're in today?
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Womanposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well caught!
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Who says that creationism poses that we were placed here as we are today? Where is the finger/toe scripture???
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You're kidding, right? Have you even read Genesis?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Once or twice, but I never read the "descriptive" part. Could you tell me where that is please?
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Non-Christians have a bad view of Christians partly because of their misunderstanding of Christianity. Ghandi, as an accuser of the brethren is agreeing with Satan (adversary). The world at large has no clue what it means to be a Christian yet, they judge Christians. But, their judgment is based on what they think a Christian should be like- they disregard our individuality, personality, and level of maturity within the faith.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Gandhi, "Oh, I don't reject Christ. I love Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike Christ."
  
  “If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today,”
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I love that statement. Ghandi and his people were kind, giving, compassionate and just about everything else that Christ was. i have not studied them, but what I have heard speaks volumes. Ghandi probably looks as Christ did. He had the look of contentment, and peace. His pictures always bring a smile to my face.
  The Christians, for some reason, miss the messages on pride, selfishness, greed, especially greed, haughty spirit, and did I say pride? They take the scriptures and manipulate the context to appeal to wealth and false justification. I know. I watched it a lot.
  But as for thinking about the God I know, uncritically, I don't think is allowed. The bible told us to study for our own benefit. But it did not say to study Aristotle; but study the word of God.
  I had to do that, contradiction was getting to be too much for me. So, I sat down, prayed to the father for his spirit to understand. Once I focused on contradiction #1. "God wants to bless you with riches!!!! But you gotta "prove him now!" You give to him, and he will give to you!!!
  Well, Jesus said, it's gon' be hard for rich people to get to heaven. Hmmmm...
  Somebody lyin'; and I KNOW it aint Jesus. "Let me understand this, Lord," was my prayer. When I read the scriptures on "prosperity" and I read a little further down each time, I realized that "prosperity" is viewed mostly as spiritual in nature. NOT financially. Greed will make you change scripture around. Knowing God who owns everything, is the best thing in life. AND IT'S FREE!!! . Some of us do not know how to handle riches. God knows who to entrust with such a responsibility. Money makes most people feel as if God is unneccessary. "Pray for what??? I got erthang I wont!" (Such deception)
  God knows who is who. Many other so-called contradictions are also cleared up completely with simply reading a little bit further down the page.
  The bible is solid. Study it for yourself.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This is where critical thinking comes into play. You are trying to fix the contradictions rather then looking for them.
  
  Who told you God lets only those who can handle riches have money? Where does it say that? It only says God doesn't let the rich into heaven. The fact that you are not thinking critically shows your indoctrination. Think about it. Why were you taught not to question the bible and not to see knowledge. Think. Think. Think.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Critical thinking is what lead me to believe that some cannot handle riches. The bible did not say that. Jesus said that it is hard for a rich man to enter heaven. That is why I believe the bible when it says that loving money is the root of evil. When you LOVE money, you will do just about ANYTHING TO GET/Keep it. The bible also says that you can't serve God and money. Think think think. And read all the words. Not just some.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So then why did you say God decides who gets money?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I said no such thing. But I agree.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sure you did.
  
  Only one page back.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That is not "God decided who gets money" though all riches are his. Who else may dole???
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Are you okay? I'm actually serious because you seem to be having problems seeing very blatant contradictions. You seem to be saying God doesn't decide who gets money, but he doles out the money to whoever he wishes. So, he doesn't decide and he does?
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are so black and white that your world is turning gray i saaaaaiiiid I had not made that statement, though I agree with it. You are major fun!!!
  God owns all. Even you. He can make ANYTHING happen. You cant even IMAGINE all that he is capable of. No one can. But hus word is plain to his children. And when they are not plain enough Jesus showed us the way. When you look for contradiction, no answer I give you is sufficient. Though, I can answer ALL of your questions. You ready?
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  God can make ANYTHING happen. That's not critical thinking. Can he make a rock so big he can't lift it. Can he stop children from starving in Africa? Can he say it's impossible for the rich to get into heaven unless he lets them? Complete and utter nonsense.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Also, the bible does not say that rich people can't get into heaven. Thats YOUR critical thinking. Cut it out!!!
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
  
  Tell me, what are the chances of getting a camel through the eye of a needle? None, you bible says Jesus says NONE.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  God can do anything. Jesus chose his words perfectly. God gave Job many riches for being faithful. Do you think that he is then barred???
  I thought you knew how to "critically" think. Oh!!! You need ALL the info to do that. Therein lies our problem study...
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No contradictions there? God gives riches and Jesus says getting into heaven rich is impossible. Which is it then. Was Jesus wrong or God or both?
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You
  report
  80
  psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  But you don't wish to show the error in reasoning?
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The error in his reasoning is found in only taking PART of the script to consider or critically think about.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You seem to be able to think critically towards me, but fail to question the obvious contradictions in front of you.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You prefer to see contradictions. You refuse to read the entire quote. You prefer the lie.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The entire quote made it more confusing and showed a clear contradiction. The rich don't get into heaven unless God lets them.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  NOBODY gets in without God's approval. You just wanna argue?
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So where can I pick up a pair of these "crazy reading glasses" ..?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You probably can't get a pair, sorry. It takes faith.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Reminds me of the Emperors new cloths. A sucker born every minute.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  But we love you anyway
  report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ghandi's quote lumps "Christians" into one big mass. It assumes that all behave the same way. Had he said, "... I do not like some Christians" that would have been a fair, intelligent response to Christianity. Not all who claim Christianity are Christians. Also, the world view of what a Christian should be like is based largely on opinion alone. Before judging a Christian, perhaps one should read the Bible in its entirety as that is what governs the Christian life. Most who are quick to point out perceived flaws in the walk of a Christian have not the foggiest idea of what being a Christian is truly all about.They forget that even Jesus ran the money exchangers out of the temple court yard with cords He had braided together. It was Jesus who proclaimed that we have it wrong if we think He came to bring peace. It was Jesus who said if anyone loves the world, the love for God is not in them. Ghandi and many others think Christianity and God for that matter, is all tip-toe through the posies and smile while you're doing it. A Christian can feed the world and lose his/her temper and all the unbelieving world would notice is that he/she lost his/her temper. Being a Christian is not being an emotional super hero, it is a journey and we learn as we walk it. We are not perfect people, we are forgiven people who agree with God that we are in need of a Savior. A true Christian realizes their struggle with sin and they do so not because Ghandi or anyone else points it out, but because their love for God and His love returned moves them.
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This is, one again, a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy. When Christians disagree, or act in a way other Christians don't particularly like, then they're "not true Christians". This way, any Christan can distance himself/herself from behavior they have a problem with. there are over 3000 denominations of christianity alone, and most claim that they are the only true Christians and everyone else is deceived. Convenient, isn't it?
  
  Incidentally, according to the Bible, Jesus not only drove out the money changers in a fit of rage - it was premeditated, and he even had time to make a whip to use while he did it, at least if you believe one of the gospels. The other three leave that violent little tidbit out
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's true that not all Christians are the same, but the vast majority are not Christ like. Christians have the reputation of thinking they are better then others and in the states for some unknown reason most Christians seem to think the rich should should pay less taxes which in turn means less charity.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds good to me. I believe Ghandi was very much like Christ himself. Christians do get stupid. I may even have MY moment from time to time. It is not our actions but our faith. The SAME can apply for all.
  Jesus realized our disadvantage in dealing with self. TOO MANY "SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS" are galloping around on their HIGH-horses and doing exactly what biblical believers were told by Jesus NOT to do. Judgment is reserved. Thinking you are something when you are really nothing is deception. We ALL are missing the "mark" of perfection. To turn up one's nose at anyone is a PRIDE stolen. Jesus pointed out clearly that NO ONE can "cast the first stone" but him, and not even he threw a stone at anyone beside the people of the church. He actually fought with them.
  People forget that God's mercy MUST extend to ; even themselves.
  reply report
4. 61
  secularist10posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thirdly, I guess Christians have a hard time understanding why people view their belief system as ridiculous. So here is a thought experiment:
  
  *Christianity claims that a man was born to a virgin woman. Humans cannot be born to virgins. This violates laws of biology and physiology.
  
  *Christianity claims that a man converted water into wine. This is impossible, and violates a number of physical laws.
  
  *Christianity claims that a man died, and came back to life. This is also impossible. No living thing can die and come back to life, so this violates basic physical and biological laws.
  
  There's more where that came from, but that's enough for now.
  
  So imagine someone loudly declared they had found the "truth." You would ask, what is this truth? And they reply: 10,000 years ago, a man got pregnant and gave birth to a child named Zorba. Zorba grew up, transformed a chicken into an elephant (among other things), and when he died, instead of falling over dead, he melted and became a puddle of mud.
  
  You see how his story violates the same physical and biological laws as the Jesus story. You would be forgiven if you burst out laughing when this person with the "truth" told this story with a straight face. You would also be forgiven for seeing that individual as unintelligent and fooled by ancient superstition.
  
  Whatever else Zorba said, did, his message, his example, etc, will not make up for the ridiculous claims made about his life.
  
  Christians who want to enter the public forum should be prepared for being seen as pushing a hilarious belief system.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I understand what you mean. My faith believes the miracles you mentioned. It is ok with me that you don't. Call me crazy! I can handle that too . Zorba is imaginative. Jesus is not. Believe with all your heart or chuck it all out the window. Your rights are protected too.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That's why your beliefs have no credibility, you place above one imaginative character above all others.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Alright already!!!
  P. S. A.:
  Ladies and Gentlemen, lend me your ear! ATM does not believe that Jesus is the son of God, and that God is the powerful almighty.
  Thisinfoissubjecttochangeattheslightestofnotice
  Better???
  reply report
  61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You do not know that "virgins" have babies? There has been research done by the medical profession that some woman get pregnant without the conventional description of sex. They are intact physically there for virgins. It doesn't happen often, but a medical doctor used this as an argument against Christians because it meant Jesus wasn't a miracle. His mother had a rare form of pregnancy, but it was not a one time occurrence.
  By the way I am a Christian and this article did not shake my faith. The comments in argument are the same by most nonbelievers: If Christians were better people I would believe them or check out their belief. If we were better people we wouldn't need Jesus we could save ourselves. That is exactly why we are Christians because we all fall short of expectations.
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Could anything shake your faith?
  
  I wouldn't believe them if Christians were better people. The entire story is nonsense. The fact that Christians are not better people just means that they don't actually believe it either.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's always been my thought that most Christians don't actually believe what they say. The proof is in the pudding.
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. You can bet your life if I genuinely thought I was going to be burned in hell for committing a sin - I would be sin free. These guys obviously don't believe it.
  
  They just want you to.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  At the very least Christians would certainly be free of unwed mothers and adultery. Sadly that is not the case.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nope! Read the entire bible, especially the words of Jesus. pay particilar attention to the phrase, "Let he who is without sin..." God is the ultimate peacemaker man "takes note" of all your downfalls God looks beyond... You find forgiveness and grace too or don't.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Let me get this through my thick skull. You think you can commit as much sin as you like. Throw away the 10 commandments, murder, adultery if you like, but as long you say you believe in Jesus, your in.
  
  Is that why there are so many Christians in Jail?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No, by no means do we have the "right-of-way" to sin.
  Sin is inevitable. Believing that Jesus came, and all the other stuff he came for is what gets you "in". You could never make it "in" without Jesus. No one is "good" enough. Once you take Jesus in, sin becomes hard to commit, not impossible. God knows. He understands. He loves you enough to look pass all of the stuff you do, see the heart that loves him, and forgive away. Always. His mercy is everlasting!!! Now why did he let us know that?
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yup, that's what I thought. Your version of God lets you do anything you want except not believe in him. This get you off the hock. This is how you satisfy your ego. You still get to do all the stuff you want to, but because you believe in Jesus you're in.
  It's like my Jewish friend who eats pork. Why would he do that if his God tells him not to? Because pork is delicious and to satisfy his desire for pork he tells himself this is not a big sin.
  It's like all my Muslim friends who drink alcohol. Why would they do that if it was a sin? Because Alcohol is fun and they justify that by saying it's not a big sin.
  
  You are satisfying your ego to do the things you want to by saying all God wants is our love.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So, you satisfy YOUR ego by saying, "There is no God?"
  Read your bible for real this time. Jesus corrected all the bad teaching. "It is not what goes into man that makes him unclean, but what comes out." Jesus said.
  Jesus hung with sinners here on earth. The "church" rejected him too. He drank wine. He just was not beligerant or unseemly. God is real in my mind. Also there, he sent Jesus to save us. That is what I believe. Your problem is you have no idea what you DO believe. You just "know" the God crap aint it. I hear you. Again, why try to convince me???
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I realize I will not convince anyone that they are delusional.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Whenever I tried to convince my former friend to take her medication, she would become so irate, I believe that, if she could have, she would have murdered me. She was firm in her belief that she was not psychotic in the least. The more I tried to help the more threatening she became, until I gave up. About a year later, I saw a bag lady strolling down the street, yelling, and laughing at all the cars that were going by. This bag lady was my former friend. This is a terrible affliction.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That's terrible, sorry. I've seen it up close myself as of late. Ended with a 10 story fall. I lost a cousin a few years ago as well. I was first exposed to it when my grade 3 friend didn't show up to school one day because her dad decided to kill the whole family and then himself.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That's why these psychotic behaviors must be addressed, swiftly, before they end in possible tragedies.
  report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Two thousand years of Christian rule over much of our world IS a tragedy.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately that is true.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  More dissonance??? Now you are saving us???
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  If you truly believe ancient, superstitious nonsense, based upon ignorant Bronze Age authors, is what is going to take our descendants into the future, then, no, I am doing nothing to help give humanity a better vantage as they negotiate the challenges of that future.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  See ya when I see ya!!!
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You definitely will not be able to convince yourself.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Please say hello to this man, for me, when you get to heaven!!!
  
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  If he is there. And if I don't forget sure will.
  reply report
  61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No,m the idea that you can commit as many sins as you want deliberately is the problem. For example people say it is a sin to lie. So, I tell my friend her new haircut she loves looks nice even though I think it makes her look to thin or something, I have sinned. Should I go to jail for that no, it is socially acceptable. Should I grip about the work I do that some lazy co-worker won't and makes me miss lunch? The Bible says, "Do all things without complaining or arguing. Philippians 2:14 NLT
  If I complain, it is a sin.
  
  The only answer I have is one from a church deacon. He went forward one Sunday and surprised everyone in the church when he confessed he had just become convinced that he had never really been saved. He did what was expected of him. Finally, that Sunday sermon was the last straw and he had to be saved so he went forward and confessed his new found understanding. He wanted everyone to know he now understood what it meant to be a Christian.
  Besides, I thought everyone in jail was not guilty. Isn't that what they all are supposed to say?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oooooohhhh! Hell is the fear??? Guess what... "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus."
  Remember the criminal who died at Jesus' side? His crooked and probably filthy existence here on earth, was tranformed into pure acceptability in "paradise" because he believed, 1 minute before his death. He had no time to "be" good. His belief would have perfected him, and that is all that is important to God. Just be "willing" to hear and obey. Humans cannot be "good" no matter how hard they try!!! Faith in Jesus is key. God looks at your heart. The bible says, "Out if the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." If you say what Jesus said, he can be seen (by God) in your heart. But you gotta believe it. Again, God reads the heart. If you TRULY mean to follow, it gets easier and easier, bit by bit. Never to perfection. God did not provide us with perfection. It is found in Jesus.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Of course it get easier and easier to believe. I've seen people believe there own lies once they tell them enough.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Have you seen it, first, in yourself?
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, I don't lie to protect my ego. When I'm wrong I apologies. I have an in-law that is narcissistic and he lies to protect his ego and he believes his lies. He reinvents the past to protect his ego. He thinks he can do no wrong and everyone else are idiots. He has no more friends, surprise surprise.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Are you listening to yourself, Sir? You do not believe in something that you have spent days/weeks trying to prove. It is my opinion that you are trying to convince yourself...of something. Or is the psychosis spreading from your subjected sick family member???
  I aint goin to no TOOTH FAIRY forums. Get that through your head first.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am not trying to convince myself of anything. I'm here because it's good exercise for my dyslexic brain and religion I find fascinating.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I figured that there was something switched around. you are fascinated by your "screaming/hungry heart" it is why you are still here. I am glad you came your facination is by design.
  report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, you've got it wrong. My head and heart are just fine. I've got a tall beautiful wife and three great kids and I'm self employed and at home all day. Just trying to understand why you are still holding onto the tooth fairy?
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are holding on to the tooth fairy and she's "got you going". I believe what I say. You question that thing that you just can't understand. Drop your guard and read. The Lord will show you his message snd give you the desires of your heart. As you know, wife and kids all have a time limit. You could lose them ALL tomorrow. What will be left???
  report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh - I know - it doesn't matter how bad Christians are - they get the free pass.
  
  I am good. Please stop lying about me - thanks.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ok
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  SOMEBODY SAY PUDDING? i loooove puddin'
  reply report
  61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You don't get it Mark. No one can be sin free. We are human and have free choice. We aren't as indoctrinated as people seem to believe or we would not speed, complain about taxes or our Presidents. I hate seeing cars with Christian ids on them. If they cut me off in traffic or run a red light, I always cringe because I know it is another reason for a non-Christian to say, "See they don't believe their own nonsense. They are worse than me."
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No - your beliefs are nonsense. As in- they make no sense at all. And you clearly don't believe or you would indeed be sin free. Eternity in hell for sinning? You don't believe it.
  
  I am sin free, thanks for asking.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, are you a believer or no? I think you have flipped a time or two.
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You can't tell that I don't believe?
  
  No - never believed it even when I was having it stuck to me at Church School. It is nonsense - sorry. Even you cannot properly put it into words.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh. Ok.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Right. When you are looking to condemn, you are condemned already. People forget that though. It is by our own standards that we are judged. Now I see why the most judgmental, find it hard to believe the message. They would condemn themselves.
  The love of God is not rigid. He knows what he created.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I enjoy reading and listening to people who all have there own version of God that neatly reflects what they need. "Murder, adultery, swearing, those are not big sins, God forgives those."
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  God forgives ALL sin. 'Cept blasphemy of the holy spirit.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I guess that's another thing you don't do. Your good to do what ever you like on earth to get into heaven. I'm not saying you do these things but you can steal, murder, have affairs with married men, lie, sell drug and do drugs. You've got yourself covered.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Raaaad Maaaan... God knows the heart. He looks there. Your actions do not match what is there sometimes. You don't think that God knows this? The "10 rules" are a standard. We know that the standard is high. Some of us have struggles that we will ALWAYS deal with. God has made a way for those who want him to come. Faith is key. "Doing" sometimes is the shaky part. Have you ever said something to hurt someone's feelings??? Then afterward felt really bad because you "really didn't mean to say that"??? God takes into account our intentions. When you "really didn't mean it" he knows. He gives you the biggest "hug" and kisses your self-inflicted boo-boo. On the other hand, if you reslly did mean to hurt, the love of God "convicts" you and shows your heart your error. If you accept his chastening, you learn to not be hurtful to others. if you turn away or turn a deaf heart, it gets sticky cuz now he's got to show you something else to get your attention. God knows what we need. He made us.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Then he knows why I don't believe in him and he will forgive me for it. I'm in. I like this God of yours, we can do all kinds of stuff and still get into heaven. I wonder is that's how army snippers justify the murders they commit?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, he knows why you don't believe, but he won't change your mind. It belongs to you to do as you wish. He will suggest and suggest. But it is still up to you.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I don't hear him suggesting anything. There is nothing there.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I know you can't hear it. Remember I told you why???
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  STRANGE, BUT AFTER LOOKING INSIDE THE HEART, THIS IS WHAT BIOLOGISTS HAVE COME UP WITH. IT IS QUITE CLEAR THAT THERE IS NO THINKING MECHANISM, OF WHICH EMOTIONS ARE BASED:
  
  Using this diagram, could you point out this mechanism for us? Thank you
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  As it turns out love is not even an emotion but an addiction. You get a fix every time you're with the loved one and go through withdrawal when you break up. All the same chemistry takes place, that's why the young have such a hard time with break-up's. Romeo and Juliet come to mind.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nature did this just for perpetuity of the species. The only thing that matters is perpetuity, no matter how many Romeos and Juliets fall victim.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The heart in this instance is the center of you. That thing that adds "flavor" to your personality and distinguishes your "ventricles" from the next. Everybody has a heart. Not everybody has YOUR heart.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And, when you have a heart transplant, you suddenly become the person whose heart you now have, magically.
  report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Not possible is it there is something that guides you, call it what you like.
  report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Falsehood!!! But I aint surprised.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, it's called In Vitro Fertilization.
  
  And, the explanation for that is...?
  reply report
  61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No, there is a man and a woman, but they never go all the way. The sperm is deposited at the entrance and we all know they can swim. I know things are pretty lacks now days, but I don't know what is acceptable language so I don't want to go into to much detail. Girls can't believe they are pregnant because physically they are still virgins.
  Rad Man, she was betrothed which is like an engagement and they didn't live together until after she was pregnant.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  We are also expected to believe she was a married virgin. Newly married people usually take care of that rather fast.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The "church" gave the world "the finger" and shook it til people were afraid to say yes to God. So much "fear and trembling, fire and brimstone" caused too much fear.
  Jesus is not "out to get" anyone. He is loving, he is kind, he is merciful, and he is here. Proof???
  Uh-uh my brother, YOU'VE got to get your own.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  In my opinion, this is a terrible way for adults to negotiate life. Frightening.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Opinion? Yep, everybody's got one. Wanna hear mine?
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No
  reply report
  52
  lcimarikposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You have taken God who made and sustains the laws of physics and all other laws that govern nature out of the equation- if He made the laws, certainly He can suspend them.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Once again your comment is proof of your indoctrination because of the fact that you are unwilling to look at the events described in the bible critically.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  God was never in the equation in the first place. It is the blind indoctrinated believer who foolishly believe that it is logical to presuppose a god.
  
  Imaginary beings are IMAGINARY, therefore they can''t make or suspend ANYTHING.
  reply report
5. 0
  Justsilvieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yep the hot topic button is right.
  
  Like you I am convinced of my position and can understand how you feel. I respect everyone’s right to their beliefs and to worship how they choose. However, I do think those beliefs end where my nose starts and that goes for everyone and I feel bombarded sometimes.
  
  I get, mail, a knock on the door, or a TV ad every day inviting me to their church. It is never from a Catholic, Jew, Muslim or one of the many other religions in this country or on this planet, it is always from the same small branch of the Protestant church, that seem to be on every corner of our small town, there seems to be a church for every 10 people and they have decided they are the minority who are going to rule the majority and by rule I mean THEIR RULES.
  
  I do not want to live in theocracy of any kind nor do I want someone trying to push their beliefs on me, convert me or remind me I am doomed if I do not believe as they do. Especially people who do not know me nor have any idea what I believe in.
  
  My advice… next time your religious beliefs come up for discussion just smile and walk away, and remind them your beliefs are yours, no further discussion necessary. It works for me.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, see... You have a much different outlook than I. I am here, asking a question. You may choose to disregard or engage. Why engage to tell me you don't believe me? Why not YOU who is the one to walk away? I make clear what the subject is. I align my question to those who want to respond. Where is the bombardment there? I aint stopping at no KKK forums. I don't believe in their cause. I won't intrude on anyone's Satan revival, or stop by any wizard of Oz praise and worship services. I am approached in most cases though. I am accused of insanity. I am called silly names. But I have nothing but the messages of the bible. I don't need to call you an idiot in order to get my point across. I just wonder if people notice how angry people get when the name Jesus is uttered. Lights a fire under many. But, the bible did say that it would. No wonder
  reply report
  0
  Justsilvieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ooopppss my mistake, I thought you were asking why people were being ugly to you when you talk about Jesus and I answered to that but after, reading your answers to others I realize you swing a mean bible and I have a headache already. LOL... so I will mossy on along...
  
  But in closing I don't get angry when the name Jesus is uttered... I am a great fan of the man! In fact my favorite quote is from Ghandi is" I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ghandi speaks truth. A lot of Christians are missing the message as well. Thanks for stopping by, have a great evening!
  reply report
  0
  Deepes Mindposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And how do you know that you aren't one of the Christians that is missing the mark?
  reply report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Faith and "blessed assurance"
  reply report
  59
  Vladimir Uhriposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ghandi is dead, Jesus is alove and well.
  reply report
6. 82
  2besureposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Genaea, keep on loving and serving God. You and I know that he is real and what He has done in our lives. Christianity has not had the greatest reputation, I agree. Not because God is not God, but the we are sometime poor representatives of a perfect God.
  
  As a Christian, I believe we sometime talk too much and mirror too little of the true nature of God. The scripture says, "By your fruit you will know them." The most powerful witness, can often be the one that is silent! Actions do speak louder than words.
  
  Concerning the ridiculousness of what Christians believe...The nature of faith is just that, faith...the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It does not have to make sense, It is the reality of the one who is believing. It does not have to be justified, nor proven to be true, merely believed. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14. So, until you accept that He is God, you can never know, or understand God. Kind of a catch 22.
  
  I was an agnostic, then an atheist, in a cult that sacrificed animals, mocked Christians and their beliefs, the whole gambit. In all that I was still searching for something real, something greater than myself. I found that in a personal relationship with God, through His son Jesus. Genaea, it is OK, if people do not believe what we believe, or if they are offended by the name of the one who set us free. Unbelief and offense, is their prerogative.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. The word is true and I thank you for pointing out that scripture. It was needed. My walk is not of arguing down the so-called opposition; but of illuminating the truth of the word for those who may be confused by false information. It is not a weight too heavy for me. These conversations have purpose for those who question and seek to know where truth is. Or better yet, have an ear to hear. They may not speak, but they are listening. They need to hear the truth. It is promised that they would.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Whoa... I completely missed your last paragraph the last time! What a testament. Tell it. How else can they hear (of the miracles and actual realities)? Not for "them" but for "the others".
  In the body, there are many parts. This is part of my "part" I enjoy telling the truth. Those who are spiritual agree. Those who are seeking have info. Those who mind, don't matter. God is the author and finisher of my faith too. I am grateful. And I have the ability to articulate what I have learned; in spirit. I am comfortable here.
  reply report
  80
  psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And others feel free to articulate their truths. That is how civil society works.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Civil is a relative term. I think it is rude/ barbaric to "interrupt" a conversation to say what YOU think about the matter being discussed. Especially when all you input is a rejection. Mommy said, "if you aint got nutn nice to say, button it!!!
  As I said before, i dont mind. But I want to be sure we agree first on who the rude and pushy intruder is.
  reply report
  80
  psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_society
  
  And I think a civil discussion is one where each person is given equal rights and courtesies. So if one person gets to spontaneously talk about Jesus, the other gets to reply saying why they think he is mythical.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That is fine. However, did you notice that you and I were not discussing. You "encountered" a conversation in full-swing. It "grabbed your ear" and you stopped to INTERJECT objections. For sure you have a right in this forum. But me being kind and non-pushy will not stop at an OP of which I have no interest. Otherwise, I am LOOKING for an argument. Jesus was not that way. Neither are those who look to him for guidance. He don't "swing" that way kind, gentle, loving, peaceful, humble, POWERFUL
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's quite hilarious when Christians claim they were once atheists, then they talk as if they haven't had a rational or logical thought their entire lives.
  reply report
7. 0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's not your belief in God people object to. Nobody really cares what goes on in your head. It's when you think your christian values should be everyone's values that you get objections. It's when you justify slavery for the bettering of a christian nation that people question your intelligence.
  
  Listen to yourself going on a on about being bombarded with objections to your faith. It works both ways, it's dialogue. I had a conversation with one of my sons (15 years old) last night where he was telling me that hollywood has sold out and hollywood has lost it's integrity because they are making a dark (more like batman) Ironman movie. He got upset when I told him hollywood never had integrity and it's always and always will be about money. He became emotional and was stomping away when I told him that I'm just giving my opinion and he is still able to articulate his. He came back and we chatted some more. My point is stop making yourself out to be victimized. It's just conversation.
  reply report
  80
  psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed. No one has the right to be agreed with. Just to be met with the level of civility they show others.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I an not making myself out to be anything. I pointed out that I am often the "victim" of rudeness and silliness because of my faith. I am ok with it.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And I'm telling you it's not because of your faith. If it's not you faith what could it be?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  My "innate" ignorance???
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, but keep going.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  My friendly smile???
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have no objection to your friendly smile, no objection at all.
  reply report
  60
  RichusFridumposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Rad Man is absolutely right. People are so sensitive when someone disagrees with their opinions or beliefs. If you are solid in your "faith" it would be of no great matter that people object to what you think.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for reiterating my solidity of faith those who mind do not matter. I find it amusing that people are so enraged by my faith. Funny! Very, very funny!
  For example, when I read the OP, God is Fake! Don't you agree??? I have nothing to say. This OP is ignored. I just have no interest in that discussion. But it is not so with my non-believing brothers and sisters. I find that they always stop by to tell me how crazy I sound no sweat. But it seems like pushing your hand into a meat grinder to me, that is painful I think at the very least, inconvenient.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  There we go!!!!!!! You can only see your side of the argument. You think all these people are trying to make you look or feel silly, but you don't notice that you think your nation is a Christian nation and if other American's don't like it they should leave.
  reply report
  80
  psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, the terrible pain of interacting with people who are different from me! Woe! Gnashing of teeth!
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Everyone is out to get me boo hoo. I should disagree with others, but they are not allowed to disagree with me.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Again, I was here minding my own business. Out of nowhere...insult "storm". And I am the one called pushy and inconsiderate of others' viewpoint. funnyfunnyfunny:)
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see an insult. Where?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oooo chile! you are gonna have to flip back for all that junk. I am forging ahead.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Also, there are so many things that are more important. I don't need approval, just as much right to be "here" (Radman) as anyone else.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That's what we have been trying to tell you.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh??? I thought you were telling me that I should "suck it up". I thought you were saying that I should not speak upon my faith because it adds too much strife to the world around me. My bad
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Talk about your faith as much as you want here. That's why we are here, but expect us to give us our point of view as well. You can tell me like others have that I'm going to hell. It's all good.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have NO idea where you will spend your eternity. And I am not ever on a "fire and brimstone" rampage. God doesn't want any of us there.
  reply report
  80
  psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You should speak your faith when it is appropriate or necessary. Not just for your *own gratification* with an indifferent to the well-being of others.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, i appreciate the ability to do it at least some of the time. I really do enjoy talking about my faith. Lying for Jesus??? You guys are nuts
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Not true. I see the arguments from all sides. No one can make me feel anything. I know who I am. I know who I belong to. But I do get "personal" objections. Not just "your God is fake" but "you are ignorant and can't think for yourself and stuff like that not from Christians though.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I get all kinds of personal objections. I have been personally physically threatened by a Christian who didn't think I should talk about the bible and slavery. You're not he only one.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm the only one HERE. no problem though. I don't mind being the "odd-ball" I think it becomes me.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You're the only one here? You just accused me of insulting you and when I asked where the insult was you told me to chill.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I told you to flip back am I on candid camera???
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Where's the like button?
  reply report
  88
  Mandrake_1975posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Where is the cartoon depicting the science of war, the science used to develop weapons, the science used to destroy the environment, the arguments concerning technology and its destruction of the environment, etc.? The "religion kills people" argument is full of so many holes it is "cheesy".
  reply report
8. 88
  Mandrake_1975posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You speak of indoctrination, yet I think many atheists and theists are just that - indoctrinated. Most individuals today who identify themselves as either atheists or theists have read something somewhere that sounds "good" to them and they go on repeating it (Richard Dawkins comes to mind - a man who thinks philosophy, which science is necessarily based on, is no longer of value), rather than looking deeper into the question(s) formed.
  
  I think individuals interested in the topic of metaphysics need to truly understand what they are getting into and ask: where does logic come from and what is it based upon? Can something come from nothing (I mean, truly nothing, not just some other dimension or portion of the multiverse or even a God making something from nothing which is not Deity)? If all things are random then how do we explain "emergence" and ex nihilo, nihilo fit? Where do morals and ethics come from and what happens to society if we take that foundation away? Can mathematics as information and consciousness explain the mind-body problem? If philosophy, which is the foundation of science (based upon its various conclusions), is deemed worthless because we now have science, then what does that say for science once we take its foundation (a priori) away and downgrade the importance of its foundational findings which cannot ever be proven by the scientific method (see Laws of Thought)? Is it easier to believe in an infinite number of universes which cannot be seen or one intelligent being which cannot be seen, logically, or do we just chuck the invisible intelligent being in the "discard bin" and accept the less likely (in my mind) "infinite" number of invisible universes theory? What does life and purpose mean to a society under the various philosophical conclusions and are the supposed "true" answers actually worth revealing in the end, especially when we realise that by taking God out of the equation "truth" is nowhere near as solid a concept as we once thought?
  
  There are plenty of questions which can be asked, which will make people think on both sides, and make them think really hard if the correct questions are asked and points are raised. It is not as simple as some think, and one faith, Christianity, is just one system which needs to defend itself against a mass of logical conclusions which one may come to based upon what we know we are capable of knowing.
  
  For instance, in my mind, the Christian doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is just as insane and illogical as most atheist conclusions and I reject it outright as absurd because it is obvious that "from nothing, nothing comes"; therefore if God exists all which is, must be created from a part of God because if it was not, then God violates logic, and knowing my philosophy; therefore, violates the very rationing which leads us to philosophically believe in God in the first place (anything created must come from a Creator) - making creatio ex deo more logical.
  
  My point is, that most people have not taken the time to develop their own philosophy and from there their theology (whether they realize they need to develop a theology for their "beliefs" or not - likely because they "believe" they have no "beliefs"; therefore, most have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to these topics.
  
  I guess what I am saying is that it is really two things: 1) Christianity and monotheistic religions are dominant and therefore will get the brunt of arguments; and 2) most on both sides have no clue what the "root" of their thinking is. If you doubt that last statement then ask a Christian to both "theologically" and "philosophically" demonstrate their assertions, and an intelligent man will usually find them stumbling at some point (or at least admitting mere "belief"), In the same light, ask an atheist to "demonstrate" their assertions or alternatives scientifically (the smart ones, who should actually be agnostics if honest will avoid this) and you will eventually (given intelligent questions to their responses) find them fumbling about much the same.
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow - that is an awful lot of words to say nothing.
  
  Can you show me some "insane," atheist conclusions please. Personally - I hate being labelled A-theist, simply because I don't accept that there can be a god. Am I an A-golfer because I don't play golf? No. Therefore the term "atheist," should not exist.
  
  And - how can you study metaphysics?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Atheists are still working on their "conclusions"
  Now to me, that is insane.
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Better take the majik then - quick before you get befuddled.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Got it
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Way too much much for me to comment on. I can tell you I became a non-believer all on my own. I was about 13 years old and this whole God thing kept me up at night. The logic just doesn't make any sense was my conclusion. You argue that all this could not have come from nothing, but you don't use that same logic to understand the God you believe in. We are told be knows everything and has always been and always will be. Ask yourself where did he come from? You are quick to say we had to come from somewhere, use that same logic to explain everything even God.
  
  "Is it easier to believe in an infinite number of universes which cannot be seen or one intelligent being which cannot be seen, logically, or do we just chuck the invisible intelligent being in the "discard bin" and accept the less likely (in my mind) "infinite" number of invisible universes theory?"
  
  No one is sure that there are an infinite number of universes and no one is sure there is a God because both of those things are currently invisible to us. There are an infinite number of galaxies that we can see. Let's just say that if we can't see it or detect it we don't no for sure it's there.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Unless we truly listen to what's inside.
  Keeping you awake is a sure sign of unrest since you did not get your "answer" you chucked the idea. God is still there. You knew it that/ those night/s. He speaks to you constantly. You just don't listen. Yry it just once.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  God doesn't speak at all. If you look at the concept of a God you will see it asks more questions then it answers.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  He "doesn't speak to you" because you ignore, discount, and disregard. He is there. You just aint listening.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm just not delusional. I will not start lying to myself so as to become deluded.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yet... You are in a "TOOTH FAIRY" forum, right??? You have spent all this time to try and "convince" me that "she" is imaginary??? Yes??? Who is the confused one again???
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wouldn't you like to know why a person would believe in the tooth fairy?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Got more important stuff to concentrate on.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yep I once psyched myself into believing that I heard the voice of Jesus, but that was the beginning of psychosis. I figured I could have just as easily heard the voice of Elvis, and got the same results...psychosis.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Then it is so for you. Why you "breakn my balls?"
  reply report
  61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You all missed the point. We don't believe in God and Jesus because of anything we see it is by faith. You believed in Santa because you saw the results of that belief. If you stopped believing, what happened? You began to see things differently.
  We believe because of faith and the results we see from prayer. Miracles, I smashed both ankles, the main bone on each foot that joins the foot and leg bones. One consultant at the hospital said there was nothing he could do and left. The other, a Muslim, put pens in the left one because it was in 5 pieces but the right one was only for so he left it. He did not try to destroy my faith by telling me they wouldn't heal, he just kept avoiding the what if when the x-rays looked bad. I can walk, with pain, with severe arthritis, but I can walk. When I mentioned I had 3 churches praying for me I found out his group had prayed too. We agreed God healed me because there was not other explanation for my out come. I even had physical therapists say, when I was teaching kindergarteners to skip, that they couldn't believe I could do it after such severe breaks. How can I doubt God?
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You healed, kind of, where's the miracle.
  reply report
  59
  Mark Knowlesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Which is it? You have contradicted your self here. First you say you believe by faith and not anything you see - then you claim you believe because you see miracles happen. If you consider pinning broken bones by medical doctors a miracle.
  
  Surprised you bothered going to a hospital in the first place.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly, kids begin to understand make believe, yet adult religious believers don't.
  
  Once again, we find believers not giving credit where credit is due. Why didn't God just heal you from the get go, why did you bother going to the hospital? Obviously, doctors are irrelevant when standing next to your faith.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Womanposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What an excellent catch! Mind boggling performance! The question is - why isn't G_d punctual? LOL!
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Just understand that you all agreed upon delusion and willful ignorance.
  At 22 it was determined that I had a heart defect. Then at 26 I found myself admitted to ICU. I was confined to the Cardiac ward for 2 weeks, were I didn't know if I would live or die. The doctors did everything they could to figure out my prognosis. Eventually I was able to leave the hospital, but about three years later, at 30 I had the worst attack ever. The pain was so severe, I wanted to die. I was admitted to the hospital, where I suspected I would expire. The doctors could not stabilize my heartbeat, and the pain was unbearable. I was angry that I was going to die young, but I hastened to just get it over with. For over a week, every morning that I woke up I was totally surprised that I had not expired. I also felt somewhat let down, because this meant I would have to go through the pain for yet another day. It took over a month to regain my health, but I still knew that this disorder would recur. But to my surprise, it has not occurred since...and that was over 20 years ago. In fact, all recent medical test that I have taken, show no signs of any heart disease, and I am as youthful as people half my age.
  
  This has absolutely nothing to do with the silly, ancient myths, written thousands of years ago, by ignorant goat herders, because I never prayed, and during the whole time, while lying on my death bed, I never, once, changed my atheistic beliefs. Credit goes to the medical professionals and chance.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  God rains on the just as well as the unjust. You don't say God healed you and just maybe, he did not.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Your imaginary god didn't do anything. to think that nonexistent entities can magically come to life and affect reality suggests a serious psychotic disconnect.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Now you sound like a broken record.
  Will you please look inside yourself to see the psychological absurdity? You are adamantly arguing your "Tooth Fairy" points. how ridiculous!!!
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Only responding to your repetitive insane comments. You keep inserting these irrelevant whimsical praises/attributions, of your delusional Jesus, into your responses, which I see as a symptom of an unbalanced state. Your mindless praising of your invisible friend answers nothing. You need to debate the real issues. Just reminding you...that's all. Christ Psychosis is unmerciful to the afflicted.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have no issue with what you say. You may though.
  You the one arguing over a puff of smoke.
  I believe what I say.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I know you believe because of blind faith. I was taught the same nonsense growing up. Blind faith is dangerous, it should not be taught to children because it opens them up to potential danger. How many children have been abused because of the blind faith of the children and of the parents?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  At least one.
  Blind faith??? Why is it that people who READ scientific materials and agree, think that they do not work from a "blind faith" perspective??? Because the book said "scientifically proven?
  Why don't you understand that it takes just as much "faith" to believe the opposing view??? Cuz the books say proven scientific fact??? Get real with everyone. You have placed your faith in something else. None of us were there when any of it iccurred. And not many of us know how the "calculations" were done. And couldn't do any of them if "they" walked you through the process.
  Oh, to be fooled by self
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You seem to think that all Atheists believe Science as opposed to religion. This is simply not he case. Science has nothing to do with my personal belief system. My disbelief in God has nothing to do with any science. Science explains the universe and has nothing to do with God. That being said all science can be tested. Starting up your computer is just the start. Explain electricity to me and do a few experiments you electricity can be touched. Blind faith is completely different. Would you let a pedophile babysit because he told you he won't touch her? That's one of the dangers of blind faith. It's dangerous.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are missing the point. If you believe in whatever you believe be it evolution, creationism, buddhism, atheism, hinduism, sky diving...it ALL takes faith in something. Atheists, for starters, believe strictly based upon blind faith that God does not exist. Test all you want. Who verifies that the "test" was accurate? You? Doubt it be real for real.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And, of course, after science fails, the ONLY default that's rational would be to accept that Jesus Christ, through God, his father, is the creator of everything, and is the ultimate king of kings. Right? Also all shall bow before him one day, as he judges all for inclusion into the book of life. Right?
  
  O...k...makes sense to me...wait!
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wait all you want. We have many options to choose from regarding faith. Some believe that Satan is Lord. It is ALL a matter of where YOUR faith lies. If my God is not real to you, then it will be that way for you always. No life after death...??? NOTHING to be concerned about.
  Do you feel like Jacob???
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I looked and look for evidence for a God, but there is none. The bible is full of flaws, the hospitals are full of people of every faith. Cancer doesn't discriminate by religion. Prayer doesn't work because if it did Christians would never get cancer.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well I see your seemingly valid argument, but as I said before, God rains on the just as well as the unjust. That is biblical scripture. He does not promise good health. Though he promises good spiritual health if you follow instructions. He promises that it is appointed that man should die. The body is just "dust". It will be buried and eaten by worms. It has no value. The spirit is his forever. Now you choose where it spends eternity, but that is obviously of no concern to you. Pinocchio has no power. He was used to teach children a biblical lesson
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ok scientific knowledge and terminologies befuddle me I rarely take it in. Science and math are my weakest areas. I wonder if that is by design Thanks for the most "sensible" response to date. As I said before, it all depends upon where you place your faith the "church" says it like this, "whose report do you believe?" The choir sings, " we shall believe the report of the Lord".
  reply report
9. 61
  LewSethicsposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe the Jesus thing offends people who think you should be focusing on your God, instead of focusing on the story of your God.
  Maybe you are seen as being unintelligent because you are too smug in your perceived rightness, with no room for doubt. Doubt is one of the things that separates us from the animals.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  YES!!! I am do glad you said it people are upset with me because I am sure while they still search for answers. Funny phenomenon. People don't like me being sure about something that they daily question. I do understand that. Thanks for bringing that to light
  Call me whatsineva you want I am a child of the true king.
  reply report
10. 53
  syndecarterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Dear Genaea-
  The Bible tells us that we who follow Jesus Christ will be persecuted for our faith regardless of how gentle and respectful the delivery of the message is. Here in the Unites States we who love Him because we know Him are often shunned by others but in many parts of the world our dear brothers and sisters are being brutally massacred for it. Remember Genaea that there is a fierce battle taking place in this world that our human eyes cannot see. Although we cannot see it taking place it is very, very real. Gods Word speaks often about it and prepares us when we find ourselves under attack. The reason that unbelievers recoil upon the mention of the word Jesus is because it is a light that shines into the dark areas of their lives that they do not want exposed. But the light of Jesus inside of us does exactly that. Continue to stand by the One who stood by you Genaea and may He make your knees strong on the journey as you follow Him. God bless.
  Synde
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you. We agree.
  reply report
  60
  pennyofheavenposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Massacred? Who is being brutally massacred because of their faith?
  reply report
11. 0
  Sophia Angeliqueposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  genaea, for me, it works like this. I understand your desire to talk about something that governs your life. That's fine. Just I don't want to hear about it because it bores me to destruction and, for me, it's rather like someone going on about the tooth fairy. Quite honestly, I don't talk about atheism either, and it would bore me just as much to talk about atheism all the time. To me, these are things that were settled a long time ago in my life, and just as I no longer talk about dolls, I've moved on.
  
  I think the old saying that birds of a feather flock together (like draws like) holds true.
  
  Best thing is just to keep your beliefs to yourself or to only talk to them in people in your own circle.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am in my circle the circle was bombarded by hungry little foxes. It is expected that you all would join me. Kind of like coming to me and "my dolly's" tea party and burning your mouth with the "pretend" beverage over and over and over again. silly aint it???
  Do an experiment. Start a forum about the honesty of Pinocchio whom we have found, actually lives in Queens, father to all the kids of the little old lady in the shoe. See how many people argue with you even for a day.
  reply report
  58
  Drive By Quipperposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This is your advice for someone on a religion and philosophy forum? Go figure.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  This happens all the time. One comes to a conversation about Jesus to receive. No matter what they say.
  reply report
  58
  Drive By Quipperposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  True that!
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That's coming from an ego with the inability to see the obvious. We are not here because we have doubts about Jesus, we are here to challenge and expose your absurd beliefs, and put them in the proper place that they belong...the garbage.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  "No matter WHAT they say"
  reply report
12. 91
  jellygatorposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't read the replies to you, and I'm certainly not out to change anyone's faith. You seem to feel offended by what others are saying to you, but by your own admission you say you talk about your beliefs often. You're putting others on the spot when they don't believe as you do, but you get offended when they do the same TO you.
  
  As a person who is not Christian but believes that Jesus existed and that there are many truths in the Bible, I still have a problem with a few things about people who behave as you do. Here's why:
  
  1. Very few people read the Bible even though they identify as Christian. I have a problem with people posing as "believers" in something they've never given serious thought to. Yes, that's what I'd call ignorance, as it stems from the same place that bigotry and racism come from - making snap judgments without enough information.
  
  2. Those who do read the Bible often don't study or understand it. For example, many Christians condemn homosexuality based on the verses found in Leviticus that say man should not lie with another man. But they have NO idea why it was written, NO understanding that it was only meant to apply to a particular group of people. Many Christians insist that the Bible is 100% accurate and literal despite glaring contradictions that prove it isn't so. There are thousands and thousands of known errors, some of the traceable to a particular source, yet when confronted with well-researched information, these people insist on holding their position. Yes, that's an example of NOT thinking and instead, just blindly accepting whatever is convenient.
  
  I have no problem with Christians or people of any other faith believing anything they want to. But I have a big problem with someone who repeatedly confronts me with something that's not valid again and again. If you want to believe everyone with green eyes is named Michael, that's your business, but if you tell me that, I might ignore your error or I might explain why I disagree. If you're offended and insist on believing all green-eyed folks are named Michael because you heard that somewhere or read it in a book, then I will have no choice but to conclude that ignorance governs your way of thinking.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, it is apparent that you have not read much of this exchange.
  Here's why:
  1. Had you read the OP, you would have noticed that there was no red "must participate" warning. So, clearly speaking the name of Jesus brought you to the conversation. I did not reach out and grab you. You came to me.
  2. There are a few people participating in this conversation who do read and understand the bible, though you clearly are NOT one of them...you are here. What were you calling ignorance, again?
  3. Homosexuality is another of those sexual sins that the Lord detests. We must worship him in spirit and TRUTH. You cannot hide your YOUness from God. He knows your very thoughts. Take your burden to the Lord; he can handle it. He has room for you. And his mercy is everlasting. Faith in Jesus as the "cleansing agent" is what makes you acceptable to the father. Not your sexual status.
  4. You were not confronted. "Convicted" is the proper term.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  There you go...challenging and insulting a person anointed by God to be a minister, essentially challenging God. Do you not understand just how serious blasphemy is?
  
  God made a place for those who blaspheme...a place of sulfer, burning flesh and gnashing of teeth.
  
  I would pray for you, but you have entered the point of no forgiveness. This is morbidly serious!
  
  ...Oh the humanity!!!
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  If you remember nothing else I say, remember this: Not all who cry Lord, Lord are his. Only he knows.
  It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but those things that come out. From the lips, to God's ears. From the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
  reply report
  60
  pennyofheavenposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  +1
  reply report
13. 0
  Sophia Angeliqueposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  genaea, without reading anyone else's response to you, let me answer your question. I am a skeptic, an atheist, and a humanist. I never, never, never talk about it. In fact, the only time I bring it up is when I am confronted by a Christian who wants to talk about 'their faith.'
  
  The only way I can explain why I don't talk about something like that is that I don't see a necessity for talking about brushing my teeth, paying my electricity bill, or putting my make up on. They are things that are just part of me, and they are so fundamentally part of me that I've long ago become accustomed to them. To me, having a belief about who one is is fundamental to everyone, and, unless someone asks, it's a bit rude to assume that they want to hear.
  
  Why do they assume that you are unintelligent and brainwashed?
  
  Well, there is more than adequate research that confirms a correlation between the highest intelligence and atheism and that the less intelligent one is, the more likely one is to believe in religion. One is that? Because analysis of the facts leads the most highly intelligent to believe that there is no god.
  
  So why would people say that it's brainwashing? Because human brain chemistry believes what it hears over and over again. For instance, if one is sitting in a white walled room, and the instructor tells one over and over again that the walls are black, after a while, when asked what color the walls are 95% of the students will say that the walls are black. After a while, they will be absolutely adamant that the walls are black even when provided with absolute evidence that the walls are white. This is how the human brain works. It's how advertising works. It's how propaganda works. It's how learning works. It's how indoctrination works. One learns and accepts as truth what one hears over and over again, despite evidence to the contrary.
  
  There is one exception to this. Throughout Mother Nature, one in twenty of the mammalian species, is born with a different brain chemistry to others. That is the brain chemistry of leaders. They do not believe things so easily and are not so easy to brainwash.
  
  Your last issue is why people call you stupid because of your beliefs. Well, I guess the fact that peole are highly intelligent doesn't particularly make them infinitely patient. After a while, they just have had enough of people being so rude as to talk about their personal beliefs systems to them. If someone tells you that they are an athiest, that's not a signal to try and share your 'point of view.' It's a signal to drop the topic because they don't want to talk about it. I get rude when I've clearly stated that I'm an atheist, skeptic, and humanist, and the Christian carries on talking about it instead of changing the topic. At that point, I will just say, "You're indoctrinated, stupid, and plain rude. Bye."
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow Sophia, thank you for your thoughts. It is obvious, however that you have not read the comments posted. Nor did you read "MUST RESPOND" in the OP
  Intelligent is relative. To me, I fit the description. But I have heard many atheists, yourself included, who speak without having an idea about what they are speaking of. That is not an intelligent act. The intelligent at least seek to become informed about their opinions. I know that I display intelligence, if nothing else. Inform yourself
  People call me stupid, yourself included, because the Lord is my shepherd. I follow where he leads. Unfortunately, people do not recognize how intelligent it makes me.
  I do not internalize the rudeness, this is just conversation, I know who I am. And I know a bit about you too, but this is not the time to speak on YOUR shortcomings. This conversation is about Jesus.
  How rude of you to join the conversation to throw stones haphazzardly. but it does not bother me. Stay; learn something.
  reply report
  0
  riddle666posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  "People call me stupid, yourself included, because the Lord is my shepherd. I follow where he leads. "
  People call you stupid because you follow those persons who tell you they are talking for god. You do not question what is told you, but accept the authority of your parents and priest who tell you bible is the word of god, while in fact it was written by humans who has no more knowledge about god than you or me.
  Intelligence is the ability to use reason and logic to analyse information and use it.
  You simply accept the statements of authority without questioning its rationality. Being first in school doesn't make you intelligent , but only the one with a good memory. It is the analysis and application without prejudice is that matters.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you again for your opinion. Since I know who you are, I know exactly where to place it.
  I follow Jesus. If nothing else, that is apparent.
  The bible was written by humans who were present when Jesus was here. I trust their judgment. I trust that the bible was written for me to be informed about the things of God that humans of many centuries have also been informed about. It keeps things on a more even keel. Since the words are written for all to see, there is much less "speculation" and more tangible EVIDENCE that the words in my heart are true.
  In the critical thinking course that you speak of, I was the A student, not because of my good memory (thank you for noticing) but because I listen; and I am able to use reason and logic to analyse the information that I use. Though your uninformed observation does not really show that you have the same ability. Critical thinking exams require analytical thought, not memory
  Analysis should be weighed against what is ALREADY known. You cannot change your mind according to the weather, and call yourself informed. Some things you already know. You build on that. Not new PUBLIC OPINION POLLS. Again, I follow Jesus.
  Application without prejudice??? You do that???
  reply report
  0
  riddle666posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That shows a real lack of education. None of the gospels were eyewitness accounts. Luke and Mark are disciples of Paul, who according to history and bible has never seen Jesus. John and Mathew are copies of Mark and Mathew clearly show the extent one can lie as none of the prophesies Mathew site has anything to do with Jesus.
  
  That is what we all say. You trust them without using reason and logic.
  
  You choose to see only that parts which are of your liking and either ignore or downplay the bad parts.
  
  In school, before the exam all the exercise are repeated many times that you will be able to regurgitate what ever form the question is asked. If you use apply reason and logic, it will be seen in your arguments. Instead you compartmentalised it in your brain for examination purpose and never to be used in real world.
  Reason says a murderer hate not love, but you say a murderer love, where is the application of reason and logic?
  reply report
  0
  riddle666posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  In school, before the exam all the exercise are repeated many times that you will be able to regurgitate what ever form the question is asked. If you use apply reason and logic, it will be seen in your arguments. Instead you compartmentalised it in your brain for examination purpose and never to be used in real world.
  Reason says a murderer hate not love, but you say a murderer love, where is the application of reason and logic? When you say Intelligent humans are created, you either imply that the god that created humans is not intelligent or is simply contradicting yourself. And unfortunately you seem not to understand the meaning of 'contradiction'.
  reply report
  0
  Sophia Angeliqueposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm doing this course which starts next week. It's how to think and argue...
  
  https://www.coursera.org/course/thinkagain
  
  Free from Duke University.
  reply report
  0
  riddle666posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent course, I found this comment to be rather humorous...
  
  "What is the coolest thing I'll learn if I take this class?
  
  Nasty names (equivocator!) to call people who try to fool you with bad arguments."
  reply report
14. 0
  kylesandersonposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well damn... If you're "unintelligent" I'm a monkey who builds space rockets.
  reply report
15. 65
  Claire Evansposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Please, for heaven's sake, would the participants please ignore this Jessica? If you ignore her, she will go away eventually. After all, she told you to leave her alone.
  reply report
  60
  pennyofheavenposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  +1
  reply report
  60
  Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That was my suggestion earlier, an you have put it very clearly, it's the right way to do; let someone else to " educate " her
  reply report
16. 68
  safiq ali patelposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You have the right to retain your faith and to practice your faith every moment of every day. Sadly as you are becoming aware there are many Jesus phobes out there who will not tolerate any mention of the Savior. But looking at the people who are Jesus phobic they lead very empty and tedious lives. Those who live faith based lives report a deeper sense of satisfaction and fulfillment in life than those who have no faith. Keep your faith and I hope your journey becomes better and better.
  reply report
  0
  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And just who gave you this information? Someone has been filling you with lies.
  reply report
  73
  getitriteposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, that's why Sweden is the happiest country in the world, and has the lowest number of believers.
  But of course you can't see the absurdity in your ridiculous statement.
  
  Do some research. Your religion causes more negativity than anything.
  reply report
17. 63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What drives me nuts is the people that go into inconsequential history from unheard of historians and expect us to change what we believe. Can you imagine changing your beliefs every time some new person comes up with obscure history from some insignificant person? I know Whom I believe.
  reply report
  0
  riddle666posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So do you still believe the earth is flat?
  Inconsequential writers wrote gospels and people believed it through centuries including you, only now historians are trying to get the facts right. You know that no 'historian of consequence' was able to establish that there was a town named Nazerath at the time of Jesus, but still he is called Jesus of Nazerath.
  So whom do you believe?
  reply report
  63
  dianetrotterposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I never thought the world was flat. What made you think that? Regarding Nazareth, I just did a search. It looks like those who try to discredit Christianity all study the same talking abouts. The tactic is to put a Christian on the defensive.
  
  I maintain ... you guys can believe whatever you want to believe. That is what I do. I am flattered that so much attention has been focused on my thoughts.
  
  Enjoy the pagan holiday guys! Relax!
  reply report
  0
  riddle666posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Why didn't you think the earth was flat? Bible says so, and people believed that same till somebody found earth is spherical.
  You shouldn't have changed your belief!
  Even the church couldn't establish that there was a city of Nazerath, though they made up a 'house were Jesus lived', just like the shroud.
  Discredit? is it like changing the end of world to end of Jews, as you made out in the elaborate reply to rad man? A generation is not a generation and world is just Jerusalem!
  "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'"
  How many stars fell from sky?
  reply report
  60
  Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The word which was translated as "Earth" was the same word as translated when Cyrus the Great said "the Lord has given all the kingdoms of the earth ...." Did Cyrus conquor the whole earth? No he didn't and he knew that he didn't! SOooo that word was NOT refering to the Planet earth.
  
  Q. Discredit? is it like changing the end of world to end of Jews
  
  ME ... Again, translation discrepency. Where does scripture say "The world will end"?
  
  Q. "Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'"
  How many stars fell from sky?
  
  ME In 69 AD Mt Vesuvius errupted and according to Pliney the younger, for almost a week he could not see his own hand inches in front of your own face, the winds were moving the ash and sulphur in a south easterly direction toward Jerusalem.
  A few years ago when the farmers in mexico were burning their fields their fires got out of controll. We in Houston couldn't see the sun because the skys were overcast from the smoke. How much more overcast would it have been if a volcanic eruption the magnitude of the 69 eruption had been taking place? We would not be able to see1/3 of the sun or the moon and stars.
  reply report
  0
  riddle666posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting, how a jew got what is said by Cyrus. Cyrus was the king of persians. he hadn't conqered egypt(Cambysses did) or india. He did went to greece. He died fighting the Masagatai. As the emperor and an ambitious person he might have thought that the he was given the whole earth to be conquered, but that will not make earth flat. And haven't read anything else from bible? there are many other references where it is plainly stated that earth is a "circle".
  
  They all saw stars falling from sky? As far as I know star is larger than earth though the ancients thought it is small, and a single star why a small asteroid can destroy a large area of earth. So did god mistook asteroid for a star?
  Is it because earth is the centre of the universe that every star is gravitating towards earth?
  reply report
18. 0
  Lybrahposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm amazed at the all the God-haters there are up in here! It's one thing to not believe, but some of y'all are bashing the religion. It saddens me.
  reply report
  69
  JMcFarlandposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  that's a misnomer. You can't hate something that you don't believe exists.
  reply report
  0
  riddle666posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, we should all stand up for Thor, our god.
  reply report
  0
  jonnycomelatelyposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  If you shout loudly and for long enough, you will get a Thor Throat.
  reply report
  86
  HeadlyvonNogginposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Haha, JCL, you're so punny!
  reply report
  58
  A Driveby Quipperposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Clever!
  reply report
82
ro-jo-yoposted 10 years ago
It is known that the name Jesus is translated from the from the Greek name Iesuos which is translated from the Hebrew name Yehowshuwa. And as you can well see that Jesus is not at all similar to the true name Yehowshuwa. So when you start speaking about Jesus being the son of god or god himself, it shows you are only repeating what you have been taught. That you haven't searched the truth for yourself. It also states in the bible that Satan is out to deceive everyone, the very elect if it were possible. That is why we should always be searching for the truth, and to find the truth we have to seek our Father Yehowah (True Hebrew name of the Almighty) Yehowah is truth.
So the question is do you want to accept Jesus or do you accept Yehowshuwa. Yehowshuwa came in his Father's name. Jesus is a false name.
reply report
1. 0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Good thoughts. I just think that if you go to the bible to seek answers, then you believe what it says. The bible says to seek the truth, but the truth is to be found, for sure, in the bible; for me and many others. The bible speaks of Jesus being the son of God. Now, if there are other names (and I do believe that there are many) then they speak of the same entity. Jesus is the son of God, according to the bible. So close, that the bible speaks of them being one (as the bible speaks of husband and wife being one) It is sad that people get so caught up in wording that they miss the message.
  You quote the bible, yet, don't believe what it says??? Now that to me, is the deceit that is used to confound the messages of Christianity. Satan deceives many this way. Read the bible, quote what it says, now search for the "true" meanings. It is a ghost-chase that haunts the very elect.
  The Lord cannot do much with a mind, where knowledge is, that is free-willed. The heart is where we meet God and find his truths. The bible leads in the right direction.
  reply report
  82
  ro-jo-yoposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I believe the bible, but realized that it is translated from both Hebrew and Greek, so to get the true understanding you have to look at the original script they were translated from. That is where you learn that certain things are incorrectly translated. Like the name Yehowshuwa and Yehowshuwa said that the greatest commandment is:
  Mark 12 28....Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Yehowshuwa answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear , O Israel; Yehowah our God is one Yehowah: 30 And thou shalt love Yewowah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
  He quoted Deut 6:4 which has the Father's name written in the Hebrew Script. As you see we are to worship his father Yehowah with all our heart mind and soul.
  So why are people turning to Jesus, it is a false name.
  A person does not have to be a Christian to believe the bible Christ is another false title. They were waiting for a Messiah not a Christ! This is another subtle deception done through mistranslation. Therefore you cannot accept mainstream doctrine, it is under the control of Satan, the bible tells us that quite clearly.
  And the great dragon was cast out , that old serpent, called the Devil, and Rev 12:9 Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying , Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, so since the texts changed the name, they are incorrect? No. We Americans say, Love "God" with all your heart...etc. Same message. Same God. Love him is the message. Some miss it because the name is different??? Also, they were looking for a messiah not a Christ??? Did you really mean to type that?
  Lastly, Jesus is followed because he was the most perfect example of God-following that we have. We know his instructions were impeccable. The Father is on the highest level. Jesus is revered for the work that he did. Correctly, the father is the only one praised and worshipped. Jesus is thanked and appreciated for his death and advocacy for us.
  reply report
  69
  aguasilverposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Can you tell me where I can get an Aramaic keyboard?
  
  I seem to have difficulty in typing His name...
  
  The fact is, we read English and the bible has been translated from Aramaic/Hebrew through Greek, into Latin and finally into English, which has produced the name Jesus for the Messiah.
  
  My name would by Yochanan in it's original form, yet it has come out as John
  
  English form of Iohannes, the Latin form of the Greek name Ιωαννης (Ioannes), itself derived from the Hebrew name יוֹחָנָן (Yochanan) meaning "YAHWEH is gracious".
  
  Personally I believe that God can speak to us in any language, and is big enough to accept that we call upon Him... not His name.
  
  Incidentally, I went through a period when I called myself Yochanan when I was following the Hebraic Roots path, which thankfully led right back around to the Christ I know.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  In a nutshell! Thanks. Wording is just not that important. He knew that the languages would be difficult to translate one to another. That is exactly why he gave us different languages. Not so that we could not talk to him; but so that we could not effectively speak to eachother. He knows all languages. We get confused language to language. However, he does not. He knows when we call him; be it Yahweh, Jehovah, King, Jack or Booger He reads our hearts (souls) and he does not get confused. The important thing is that we call him.
  reply report
  82
  ro-jo-yoposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  First I would like to say the the names Yehowah and Yehowshuwa is the correct English transliteration of the Hebrew names. Here are some bible quotes that states the importance of the names.
  Psalm 103:1 KJV
  Bless YEHOWAH, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name. Psalm 105:1 KJV
  O give thanks unto YEHOWAH; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people.
  Psalm 105:3 KJV
  Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek YEHOWAH
  Psalm 106:47 KJV
  Save us, O YEHOWAH our God, and gather us from among the heathen, to give thanks unto thy holy name, and to triumph in thy praise.
  Psalm 96:2 KJV
  Sing untoYEHOWAH, bless his name; shew forth his salvation from day to day.
  Psalm 92:1 KJV
  It is a good thing to give thanks unto YEHOWAH, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High:
  These are some of the verses that shows the importance of the name. And when Yehowshuwa told us to pray we say: Our Father who art in heaven Hallowed be thy name
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow!!! So I am condemned if I don't know Hebrew languages? Not! Please don't "argue over words" can you find that scripture??? Blessed and holy are his names. Some of us just cannot pronounce his "real" name. We have an advocate with the father though. I am pretty darn smart according to my peers. I can't even get the vowels correct in my head. Will I be considered slack, or at a risadvantage? (Please say you don't understand that last word so you may see what I mean)
  If my people who are called by my name (his name aint genaea, for sure) would umble themselves and pray... Let us be fair and speak about important matters. How can we not get upset with such opposition? Let us find a common ground.
  reply report
  82
  ro-jo-yoposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am speaking about important matters, I am talking about our very soul. But all Christians have been indoctrinated by their churches, and while they were teaching you their doctrine they also dimmed you eyes and your hearing so much that it is almost impossible for you to hear and see clearly.
  Your answers clearly lets me see you as such a person.
  I suggest that you read this hub
  http://ro-jo-yo.hubpages.com/hub/Lost-Truth
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm really curious, did you read your post? Like several times, maybe, for clarity.
  
  You do realize that you're actually demanding others to believe what you want them to believe from the position of arbiter?
  
  While it may not be my place to defend Christian indoctrination, I certainly would defend a Christians right to decide not to break it, regardless of it's insidious origins, intents and effects.
  reply report
  82
  ro-jo-yoposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  In most of my answers I try to quote the bible, this is a book that Christians say they believe in also. If you see it as me demanding others to believe what I want them to believe, so be it. I can only state the truth as I see it, so here is another quote: Psalm 145:21 KJV
  My mouth shall speak the praise of YEHOWAH: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And as such: My mouth shall speak the praise of God. And let all flesh bless his holy name forever and ever. If and only if you can pronounce it??? Nope. Bless it. Whatever you may call him.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  If I saw Mein Kampf as the truth and began demanding people eliminate the Jews because it is Gods work, others wouldn't be blaming the book for what I am telling people to do.
  
  That's why your demands do nothing but cause conflict and have no other redeeming or positive qualities whatsoever.
  reply report
  82
  ro-jo-yoposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Oh really, and what redeeming or positive qualities are in your comments? And did you ever stop and realize why Hitler brainwashed (indoctrinated) they German people into believing that it is OK to murder the Jews? Because Hitler, who was taught by the Jesuits, was to help stomp out the name of the Almighty Yehowah, which all the Jewish people knew. And why do you think the Catholic Church had bible burnings? Because they have been trying to stomp out the true name for a long time.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  What? Do you people wear shades while reading my comments??? The church is responsible for the wrong info that taught me as a kid. I didn't know any better. Christians really scared me back then. As I matured, I sought the truth on my own along with a prayer for understanding. Is that still some sort of indoctrination? I think from your last statement that your senses are dimmed and your hearing impaired but hey, just MY opine. Erbody's got one or two.
  reply report
  91
  jellygatorposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  "Wording is just not that important. He knew that the languages would be difficult to translate one to another. That is exactly why he gave us different languages. Not so that we could not talk to him; but so that we could not effectively speak to eachother. "
  
  If you believe this, then you must be defying God's will by even attempting what He didn't mean for you to know. What nonsense!
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You still are not reading.
  reply report
  58
  Drive By Quipperposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Tongues of angels, even.
  reply report
  60
  Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Exceptionally well said , John .
  It is this enormously in comprehantion gift of FAITH getting us close to God to know him, to understand him, communicate with him and to work with him in supernatural
  reply report
2. 75
  DoubleScorpionposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Elohim was also used by the Hebrews as a name for God. And a few others as well.
  reply report
80
psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago
Maybe the issue us that when you are "often" talking about it, it is off topic and the person your are speaking to finds it intrussive and annoying.

By contrast I doubt I mention my atheism (also important to me) more than once a week across all of my interactions on and offline.
reply report
1. 0
  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Im not trying to disrespect you in the least, Im just not sure I understand.
  I can see why your scientific beliefs etc would be important to you, but Atheism is a disbelief in the existence of a deity, as you know. Where as a person who has placed their faith in God has a relationship with Him, loves Him, is loved by Him, lives and dies for Him, offers their time and a portion of their finances back to God and trusts Him with every facet of their lives. It seems to me like you can't quite compare the two perspectives. It seems natural for someone of faith to talk about the being they have faith in, not that they should push God on anyone who isn't interested in hearing.
  reply report
  60
  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are beautiful Beth. I would like to say though, that pushing is not my cup... I want to show people what I know. I want them to tell me what they know. Just so happens that I am convinced about what I know. Others... not so much.
  reply report
  0
  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I knew I should have read the whole thread... I didn't know what anyone else had said, I was just responding to that one post.
  
  No, we all share our beliefs here. It's give and take, back and forth. I just meant in general, I don't see anything wrong with sharing what is most important to you if youre not pushing your faith on someone who would prefer you to keep it to yourself.
  reply report
0
Emile Rposted 10 years ago
No one should refer to you as unintelligent for what you think. But, out of the utmost respect for the figure of Jesus and his teachings, I do find myself offended by many interpretations. A lot of things are attributed to belief in Jesus that have nothing to do with anything he appeared to say and I think he would be saddened by the high horse of Christianity.
reply report
1. 0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  He was saddened by the high-horse of the Jews of his time. Christianity is the result. But, again, we have found many ways to ignore or discount the messages of this life. Humility is key.
  I think that we have a lot in common (Hi Emile!. The heart is sensitive to God, no matter who or what you believe. We make the choice to say yes or no daily (sorry James:) because each day, we are faced with options to do this or that. Right or wrong. EVERYDAY.
  Intelligence is not what the Lord requires, if it were, that would be a set-up. Not everyone has even enough of that to tie our shoes properly. Knowledge of his will is required. To each of us, he gave a measure of that. We decide what we do with it. Misinterpretation is not even counted against you if you honestly don't understand what he "actually" meant by his instruction. He corrects you eventually. Yet, it is still up to you to "stand" corrected. Try not to be upset by misunderstanding/misinterpretation. We are all trying to "get it". Jesus advocates for those who "know not what they do" God understands our condition.
  reply report
2. 61
  MsJunieBposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Amen to Emile R. very clear understanding of Jesus.
  Things have gone off subject, genaea, but I think all of us can learn from these posts. If nothing else, it can strengthen everyone's debating skills. Most of the conversation is very polite even when people disagree. A professor told us one time that is why teenagers argue so much. They are learning how to disagree without being disagreeable.
  reply report
0
Sri Tposted 10 years ago
In a public, anonymous forum there will be many opinions. It's ok to follow whatever you choose. The problem that some people have with Christians and many religions is their idea that their path is the only way to God. This is one of the causes of religious wars all over the world. The reality is, people are getting results from all kinds of religions. Even if you don't try to preach to others, the bible says spread the gospel. I see people on the street everyday trying to convert others. Nothing wrong with that. If it works for them, great. But if we are wise we must realize that many people have gotten results before and after Christianity was in effect. A public forum is opinion and entertainment.
reply report
61
williemjonsposted 10 years ago
Hou are right................................there is God
reply report
80
psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago
The bottom line is that you talk a lot about God you require people with other beliefs to either ignore you or rebut you.

If those outcomes are undesirable to you, maybe give it a rest.
reply report
1. 0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well honestly, I prefer to be ignored by those who don't want to hear me. That is why I make so clear, my topic. But oh! If I say Christian or Jesus, the "little foxes" come-a-circling It is not REALLY surprising. It just helps me to have more faith. The bible said that this all would occur. How could they have known so long ago? I am just in AWE of the holy spirit. I hate that you are not. But I don't hate you. How bout those cart-wheels???
  reply report
  60
  royalblkroseposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I wholeheartedly agree with you genaea.... the foxes come out to bite, the intellectual humanists come at you, guns blazing.... The Word tells us tho' that He (Jesus) offended folk, and that if we follow Him, we will offend too. and Like you, I get tired of the offense....
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Tired, no. I think the "foxes" are searching for reasons to believe. Ha! At least id like to believe so. I just would like to see if THEY actually know why they come.
  reply report
80
psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago
If you think people expressing a view are attacking you this explains, perhaps, why you perceive others reacting in a hostile way to your religious talk. Maybe they are just saying what they think, and you perceive this as an attack when it is not. Why should they have to ignore in silence, while you feel free to speak out?
reply report
1. 0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  There is only one way to perceive, "unintelligent, indoctrinated, unable to think for myself". Such expressions are of a "personal" nature. Such expressions are meant to belittle and demean. I don't have to be really intelligent to know when I am being insulted, simply because I believe God. Your statement is more of the same. Piss down my neck; tell me it is raining??? i know when i am being insulted I perceive pretty well. However, I do not consider it a barrier. I know who I am. And I know WHOSE I am. Your opinions are just that.
  reply report
0
Justsilvieposted 10 years ago
As I said before I have no problem with any religion. I think it the far right posing as Christians that turns people off on Christianity in America! Here are some great examples Now can you honestly say Jesus Christ would want these followers?

Ann Coulter
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

"Not all Muslims may be terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims."

"Being nice to people is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity, as opposed to other religions whose tenets are more along the lines of 'kill everyone who doesn't smell bad and doesn't answer to the name Mohammed'"

Bailey Smith
"With all due respect to those dear people, my friend, God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew."

Beverly LaHaye (Concerned Women for America)
"Yes, religion and politics do mix. America is a nation based on biblical principles. Christian values dominate our government. The test of those values is the Bible. Politicians who do not use the bible to guide their public and private lives do not belong in office."

Bob Dornan (Rep. R-CA)
"Don't use the word 'gay' unless it's an acronym for 'Got Aids Yet'"

David Barton (Wallbuilders)
"There should be absolutely no 'Separation of Church and State' in America."

David Trosch
"Sodomy is a graver sin than murder. – Unless there is life there can be no murder."

Fob James (Governor of Alabama)
"Behind this judicial wall of separation there is a tyranny of lies that will fall... I say to you, my friends, let it fall!"

"A good butt-whipping and then a prayer is a wonderful remedy."

Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church)
"If you got to castrate your miserable self with a piece of rusty barb wire, do it."

"Hear the word of the LORD, America, fag-enablers are worse than the fags themselves, and will be punished in the everlasting lake of fire!"

"You telling these miserable, Hell-bound, bath house-wallowing, anal-copulating fags that God loves them!? You have bats in the belfry!"

"American Veterans are to blame for the fag takeover of this nation. They have the power in their political lobby to influence the zeitgeist, get the fags out of the military, and back in the closet where they belong!"

"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death."

Gary Bauer (American Values)
"We are engaged in a social, political, and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets the right to teach our children what to believe."

Gary North (Institute for Christian Economics)
"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant–baptism and holy communion–must be denied citizenship."

"This is God's world, not Satan's. Christians are the lawful heirs, not non-Christians."

Gary Potter (Catholics for Christian Political Action)

"When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil."

George Bush Sr. (President of the United States)
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

George W. Bush (President of the United States)
"I don't think that witchcraft is a religion. I wish the military would rethink this decision."*

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."

"Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."

*Comment about Wiccans in the military

Henry Morris (Founder, Institute for Creation Research, died 2006)
"When science and the Bible differ, science has obviously misinterpreted its data."

J. B. Stoner (White Supremacist) (1924 - 2005)

"We had lost the fight for the preservation of the white race until God himself intervened in earthly affairs with AIDS to rescue and preserve the white race that he had created.... I praise God all the time for AIDS."

"AIDS is a racial disease of Jews and Niggers, and fortunately it is wiping out the queers. I guess God hates queers for several reasons. There is one big reason to be against queers and that is because every time some white boy is seduced by a queer into becoming a queer, means his white bloodline has run out."

James Dobson (Focus on the Family)
"Those who control the access to the minds of children will set the agenda for the future of the nation and the future of the western world."

"State Universities are breeding grounds, quite literally, for sexually transmitted diseases (including HIV), homosexual behavior, unwanted pregnancies, abortions, alcoholism, and drug abuse."

"Today's children... They're damned. They're gone."

James Kennedy (Center for Reclaiming America)
"The Christian community has a golden opportunity to train an army of dedicated teachers who can invade the public school classrooms and use them to influence the nation for Christ."

James Watt (Secretary of the Interior)
"We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand."*

*Secretary of the Interior in the Reagan Admin. Responsible for National Policy regarding the Environment

Jay Grimstead (Coalition on Revival)
"We are to make Bible-obeying disciples of anybody that gets in our way."

Jerry Falwell (1933 - 2007)
"We're fighting against humanism, we're fighting against liberalism...we are fighting against all the systems of Satan that are destroying our nation today...our battle is with Satan himself."

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters."

"The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc."

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

Jesse Helms (Senator R-NC, 1973-2003)
"The New York Times and Washington Post are both infested with homosexuals themselves. Just about every person down there is a homosexual or lesbian."

"All Latins are volatile people. Hence, I was not surprised at the volatile reaction."

"Your tax dollars are being used to pay for grade-school classes that teach our children that cannibalism, wife-swapping and murder of infants and the elderly are acceptable behavior."

"Homosexuals are weak, morally sick wretches."

Jimmy Swaggart (Jimmy Swaggart Ministries)
"The Media is ruled by Satan. But yet I wonder if many Christians fully understand that. Also, will they believe what the Media says, considering that its aim is to steal, kill, and destroy?"

"Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest."

"Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it...Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory."

John Ashcroft (Attorney General)
"Civilized people – Muslims, Christians, and Jews – all understand that the source of freedom and human dignity is the Creator."

John Whitehead (Rutherford Institute)
"The [Supreme] Court, by seeking to equate Christianity with other religions, merely assaults the one faith. The Court in essence is assailing the true God by democratizing the Christian religion."

Joseph McCarthy (1908 - 1957)(Senator, R-WI, 1947-1957)
"Today we are engaged in a final, all-out battle between Communistic Atheism and Christianity."

Joseph Morecraft (Chalcedon Presbyterian Church)
"Nobody has the right to worship on this planet any other God than Jehovah. And therefore the state does not have the responsibility to defend anybody's pseudo-right to worship an idol."

Joseph Scheidler (Pro-Life Action League)
I would like to outlaw contraception...contraception is disgusting – people using each other for pleasure."

Kay O'Connor (Kansas Senate Republican)
"I'm an old-fashioned woman. Men should take care of women, and if men were taking care of women today, we wouldn't have to vote."

Keith A. Fournier (Catholic Way)
"We need a legal strategy which protects the rights of those of us who hold Christian convictions which will afford us the opportunity to contend once again for the mind of this culture."

Laura Schlessinger
"I want to coin a phrase here, and I don't mind help. What would be the communication version of "ethnic cleansing?" Because that's what in particular the homosexual activists try to do."

Lester Roloff (1914 - 1982)(Texas Homes for Wayward Youth)
"Better a pink bottom than a black soul."*

*Roloff opened a chain of homes for "wayward" youth in the state of Texas; he was later jailed in 1973 and again in 1975 for child abuse due to the punitive punishment techniques used in his homes. He was then specifically given permision to re-open his homes by Governor George W Bush.

Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin
“George Bush was not elected by a majority of the voters in the United States, he was appointed by God.”

Pat Buchanan (Presidential Candidate)
"Our culture is superior. Our culture is superior because our religion is Christianity and that is the truth that makes men free."

"There were no politics to polarize us then, to magnify every slight. The "negroes" of Washington had their public schools, restaurants, bars, movie houses, playgrounds and churches; and we had ours."

"Rail as they will about 'discrimination,' women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism."

Pat Robertson (Christian Coalition)
"The Islamic people, the Arabs, were the ones who captured Africans, put them in slavery, and sent them to America as slaves. Why would the people in America want to embrace the religion of slavers?"

"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different...More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."

"When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals – the two things seem to go together."

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians."

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense, I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist."

"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."

"[Homosexuals] want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers."

"[Planned Parenthood] is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism – everything that the Bible condemns."

Paul Cameron
"I think that actually AIDS is a guardian. That is I think it was sent, if you would, about forty years ago, to destroy Western civilization unless we change our sexual ways. So it's really a Godsend."

"Homosexuality is a crime against humanity."

"Causes of homosexuality include: 'sex with animals'"*

"Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals."

*Paul Cameron was discharged from the American Psychological Association, the Nebraska Psychological Association, and the American Sociological Association due to his unethical practices and biased research regarding Homosexuals; however his work is still referenced by many fundamentalist organizations as credible.

Randall Terry (Operation Rescue)
"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."

"Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God's law, on the ten Commandments. No apologies."

"I don't think Christians should use birth control. You consummate your marriage as often as you like – and if you have babies, you have babies."

"When I, or people like me, are running the country, you'd better flee, because we will find you, we will try you, and we'll execute you. I mean every word of it. I will make it part of my mission to see to it that they are tried and executed."

"There is going to be war, [and Christians may be called to] take up the sword to overthrow the tyrannical regime that oppresses them."

Jerry Vines (Southern Baptist Convention)
"They would have us believe that Islam is just as good as Christianity. Christianity was founded by the virgin-born son of God, Jesus Christ. Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, the last one of which was a nine-year-old girl."

Rick Santorum (Senator R-PA, 1995-2006)

"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [Gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything!"

Robert Simonds (Citizens for Excellence in Education)
"As the church watches from the sidelines, the ungodly elect atheists and homosexuals to school boards and legislatures to enact policies and laws that destroy our Christian children and discriminate against Christian families."

"Atheistic secular humanists should be removed from office and Christians should be elected...Government and true Christianity are inseparable."

"We'll take away their power and their money. Money comes from students. We'll break their backs by taking 24 million kids out of the public schools."

Robert T. Lee (Society for the Practical Establishment of the Ten Commandments)

"Raising your children under Americanism or any other principles other than true Christianity is child abuse."

"You do not have the right to be wrong, regardless of what any man-made or demonic charter says."

"Democracy originated in the mind of a rational being who has the deepest hatred for God."

"Do you realize that the only thing that gives democracy existence is sin? The absence of democracy is perfect obedience to god."

"The best way to insure the earth is never over populated is for sensible and righteous governments to clear all forms of atheism and heresy."

Ronald Reagan (1911 - 2004)(President of the United States)
"For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ."

Roy Moore (Former Alabama Judge)
"If they want to get the Commandments, they're going to have to get me first."*

"Worship With Your Vote"
Rush Limbaugh

"Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society."

"If you commit a crime, you're guilty."

"There is only one way to get rid of nuclear weapons... use them"

Star Parker (Coalition on Urban Renewal & Education)
"Anybody that believes in separation of church and state needs to leave right now."

Tony Evans (Promise Keepers)
"The demise of our community and culture is the fault of sissified men who have been overly influenced by women."

William Rehnquist (1924 - 2005)(Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court)
"The 'wall of separation between church and state' is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned."

Michael Savage (Savage Nation)
"Oh, you're one of the sodomites. You should only get AIDS and die, you pig. How's that? Why don't you see if you can sue me, you pig. You got nothing better than to put me down, you piece of garbage. You have got nothing to do today, go eat a sausage and choke on it."*

I can on and on and on with the hate that is spouted in this country in the name of Christianity but I will just say "my 2nd next favorite quote "Jesus protect me from your followers"
reply report
1. 0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That list was way too long. Your passion cannot be enveloped in one sitting. After about fifty of those crazy statements, my eyes went numb. However, I get your point, and have ONLY one quote for you: "Ye have heard that it was said, thou shall love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, love your enemies; bless them that curse you; do good to them that hate you; and pray for them that despitefully use and persecute you." Jesus the Christ and Messiah and king of kings made that statement to those who follow him. Now you have a CLEARER picture of what the "following" of Christ, looks like. See??? There is a difference between being "Christian" and following Christ.
  receive it?
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  But, we've moved well beyond that kind of archaic thinking because it is as meaningless as it is barbaric. We need not 'love thy neighbor or love thine enemies' as it an ideal that is based entirely on the diminishing of love to a base emotion that can be tossed around to anyone and everyone. From what property, description or characteristic of 'love' does one offer their enemies?
  
  Love is an emotion that is meant to be far more important, intimate and profound in relationships than just a "How-do-you-do" to ones neighbor.
  
  Just check out what happens when you say, "I love you" to your spouse and then watch what happens when you say it to your neighbors spouse.
  
  The correct word to use is respect, not love. Respect your neighbors and most likely, they'll respect you and all will be good in the neighborhood.
  
  And, just look at the mess Christians made of that one.
  reply report
  0
  genaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I just din't get it ATM.
  reply report
  58
  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I am not at all surprised.
  reply report
  53
  Zxoaicposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  We expect it from socks, anyway.
  
  reply report
  57
  Gitridomiposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Deleted
  53
  Zxoaicposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Another one to show the process.
  reply report
  57
  Gitridomiposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Deleted
  53
  Zxoaicposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You're using CS2. Outdated.
  reply report
  57
  Gitridomiposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Deleted
  53
  Zxoaicposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Steve Jobs is dead.
  reply report
  53
  Zxoaicposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  He left a Mac Pro though, for one of his notorious earthly inheritors to spam the internet.
  report