If it's true that human beings must have free will because God doesn't want us to be robots, what is the role of free will once a believer enters heaven? Can I choose to stop worshiping God?
According to most religions, no. Of course, religion is man-made. So there is a very good probability that it is wrong.
God doesn't offer free will, He only offers the chance to become a robot by issuing an ultimatum; worship and obey Me or suffer eternal hellfire.
It is only by rejecting completely that ultimatum and belief in such a God that would issue it can we attain any semblance of free will.
absolute freedom is true worship of God
bondage is not understanding this.
with freedom is understanding from which comes the wisdom to know why freedom is better than bondage and why bondage for a while, works for the purposes of freedom.
So those with absolute freedom knows both freedom and bondage works towards the purpose of worship, while those in bondage do not understand such things.
Freedom from the bondage is the uncorrupted wisdom god is offering. But the offering is unknown as the known is hidden. And the knowledge of the unknown and the liberation of bondage make the relief of freedom which makes bondage worthwhile.
When the offering in known there is nothing unknown...
and that man's bondage is only to freedom
Absolute freedom is the requirement to perform a particular action (worship) and bondage is not understanding that?
You have a very twisted logical chain, here, Kess.
yep it will appear so to most...
The logic where the up and the down is seen as two different things but then united as one...
You will understand when that logic becomes you.
agree ... All things are one but it is our nature to disect "IT" in our attempt to understand ??
This too is an illusion of our own creation. I Think?
It seems far more likely that I will "understand" when I forego the use of logic and reason, believing what makes me feel good instead and declaring that it is truth.
Many people do just that, and live quite happily with belief instead of knowledge, but it is not for everyone.
I must be in bondage, I don't understand a word you're saying.
Yes you are in bondage
because you believe that you are free
Truly accept that you are bondage
then you begin to see.
The bondage has nothing to do with my freedom and everything to do with the gibberish you're spouting.
Ahhh I see...
Youre fluent in gibberish
I was at my wits end finding one person who understood that language.
Well let continue our discourse.
Let me help you out here Troubleman you addicted to anything, abusive towards anyone, verbally, physically, emotionally, or spiritually. Maybe perhaps pornography, or other anger problems. lol These are all considered bondages when you can't escape the behavior and habits you've chosen. Or a way of lifestyle.
Not free will. Free choice. It is very different. We have the ability to make choices given the natural laws, our circumstances, our genetics, and our upbringing. Not the ability to do as we will regardless of circumstance.
A child born into an abusive family cannot will themselves to be rid of their childhood trauma and memories. But they can choose to use them in a positive manner.
When we reach heaven we have made the choice to be with God. Once we make that choice we cannot unmake it, and the way heaven is described we won't want to.
We get to choose over the course of our lifetime, do we want to be with God, or do we want to be separate from God. God will respect our choice, but once we make it and judgement is passed we cannot change our minds. To be with God is what is described as Heaven. To be separate from God is what is described as Hell.
Its hilarious that you believe that is a actually a choice when it is nothing more than an ultimatum, one that is very similar to having a gun pointed at your head. Believe in God or go to Hell. That is an ultimatum, not a choice.
No it is like telling a homeless person that they can live in your house, or they can choose not to. It is a choice. Maybe not one people like, but a choice none the less.
Nonsense, your example is not the same thing at all. The homeless person is not sent to a lake of fire for not living in the house.
Oh dear. We have different perspectives on Hell.
No, you have a different perspective than what religion explains Hell to be.
I don't care what religions describe hell to be. Religions are man made and often twisted. I care what God describes Hell to be. That is very different.
Ah, so you have had Hell personally revealed to you by God?
Then where did you get your perspective on hell?
You're not saying much of anything. Can we therefore conclude you have nothing to say on the matter?
I am still waiting for you to say what you have to say. Over time I have asked you many questions regarding your beliefs and your understanding of the science you so love. You never answer. I wonder if that is because you don't have much to say or because you conveniently miss it every time somebody challenges your presuppositions.
I have much to say, and I have said it many times before. I don't think I am going to contribute much more to these forums till I see you contribute anything...absolutely anything positive.
I've made it quite clear many times I hold no beliefs. And, I do talk about science when required.
That is entirely false and you know it.
Yes, and I understand that only if I lose my mind and begin spouting religious nonsense will you equate that to "anything positive."
By positive I meant saying what you think is true, rather than just telling others they are wrong. To say you are wrong in your beliefs, but I don't have any better answers is in my opinion worse than holding blind faith even. It is to refuse to take a stance, to form any opinion of ones own.
No no no, it's like telling a homeless person they can live in your house or die a most painful death.
What people miss is that when you're in Heaven, you are literally in God's presence all the time, unfiltered and unvarnished. Why would you stop believing in God at that point? If you truly didn't want to believe in God, you wouldn't be in Heaven.
It's not that we don't want to believe in God. Everyone wants to live eternity in a loving environment, but just because I want it doesn't make it so. I also want to be six feet tall with a full head of hair, but that is simply not the case. Reality bites, but it's reality.
Okay, but I was responding directly to the question posed, which was to ask if we can choose to stop worshipping God once we're in Heaven.
The short answer is no, but that would have been a bit, ah, antisocial to just give the one word answer.
where in the bible does it say we have free will? I am curious.
You tell me. I'm not a christian, but many christians constantly tell me I have free will.
I am a Christian and I haven't read anything like that in the Bible. I could be wrong, but it appears that everything depends on God's will, not ours.
Exactly. I've never seen any passage in the bible where man is quoted as having a free will.
Many neuro scientist types believe that all our decisions are actually made in the sub-concious before it chooses to make our conscious mind aware of them. If that's the case, nobody has free will as our minds are made up for us in advance.
You could, but you won't. You will still have the choice, but you will also have a much greater understanding of who God is and why he deserves that worship, and therefore won't have any desire to exercise that choice. Satan was in heaven before he was exiled to earth. God allowed him the choice. The same opportunities still apply to everyone else. Once the great controversy has fully been played out, everyone who has access to heaven will know why God deserves our worship and the repercussions of choosing otherwise will be fully revealed.
"deserves worship." No one deserves worship! Do you think so little of yourself that you would base your entire existence on worshiping your creator?
I know you didn't ask me, but I would love to answer. I don't think little of myself compared to other people. I am nothing compared to God however. Does He deserve worship? Absolutely, so as long as you mean do I think so little of myself compared to God, put me in the yes column please!
That's fine. I have no problem with anyone jumping in and giving their opinion. It's why I start provocative forum posts. I like discussions and rational arguments.
Why, in your opinion, does God deserve worship?
Why would a God demand worship? Do you demand worship from your pet? I personally demand respect from my pet, but I don't demand it from my children. From them I would like to think I get it, but I don't demand it. I demand it from my dog because be is better behaved when he knows what he pecking order is. Is that what your god thinks of you? There is a difference between worship and respect.
You go on and on about "demand," but you added that. God deserves worship but you are free to have nothing to do with Him. So why all the interest in a God you are certain does not exist?
From what I understand one can't get into heaven without his worship, so he demands worship, just like Santa demanding good behaviour or you get no presents.
Why all the interest? Because I'm fascinated that some people are willing to worship something that has yet to be detected and I want to know why, but recently I believe jonnycomelately has given me the answer. Thanks Jonny.
Worship of God in Christianity is different than that of other religions. Since I am not an expert on religion by any means, I can only share how I feel.
You're absolutely right, no "one" deserves worship if they are human. But God is not simply some"one". God is an omnipotent supernatural being who provides you with the very energy that keeps your heat beating and your lungs breathing. Without Him we would cease to exist.
As a Christian, God does deserve worship. He provides the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the ground we walk upon. Without Him there would be no life, or for that matter, anything at all. He deserves worship as an expression of our gratitude for creating us, and everything that surrounds us.
It has nothing to do with how I feel about myself or anyone else. Its purpose is to recognize God for who He is.
LOL! Sorry, but biology and chemistry would show that to be little more than a childish belief.
You feel God deserves worship because he demands worship. By definition anyone who demands worship has a very serious character flaw. This doesn't add up well to the God you choose to worship.
When we get to Heaven we will be filled with joy and a deep desire to worship God with love.
We human beings are supposedly born free and our free will is put to the test. I think most religions would say that we are born free but the test of our lives is to do with our free will as god himself would have us do. If we had our free will over to mighty god and do with our lives that good that god requires us to do we stand a better chance of going to heaven. Those of us who throw our free will away and live life selfishly or do bad things with our freedom lose our chance to go to heaven and the end of our lives and go to hell instead. This is the test of free will as some religions, leaders and scholors and people through history have described.
So we have free will, but if we choose to use it we are in trouble with your God, so we really don't have it. Kind of like the mafia saying, give me your money or well kill you. You could say no, but...
If you choose God out of fear...don't bother. God doesn't want you to worship Him out of fear...He wants you to worship him out of love. Your argument is the same one Satan had with God over 2000 yrs. ago..."Hey God, your rules are unfair! I don't have to listen to You, I'm gonna do it my way." And thus we have the great controversy being played out...Is God a "just" God, and is what He expects from us fair? This is the real question behind every argument about Gods requests.
Sadly - the bible says differently. Do you guys ever try reading this book?
22:12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
1:21 And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families of their own.
14:31 And when the Israelites saw the great power the Lord displayed against the Egyptians, the people feared the Lord and put their trust in him and in Moses his servant.
20:18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."
20:20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."
19:14 "'Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.
25:17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.
5:29 Oh, that their hearts would be inclined to fear me and keep all my commands always, so that it might go well with them and their children forever!
6:1,2 These are the commands, decrees and laws the Lord your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the Lord your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life.
6:13 Fear the Lord your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name.
6:24 The Lord commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the Lord our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.
9:19 I feared the anger and wrath of the Lord, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you. But again the Lord listened to me.
10:12-13 And now, O Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the Lord's commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?
10:20 Fear the Lord your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name.
31:12 Assemble the people--men, women and children, and the aliens living in your towns--so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord your God and follow carefully all the words of this law.
31:13 Their children, who do not know this law, must hear it and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess."
4:23,24 For the Lord your God dried up the Jordan before you until you had crossed over. The Lord your God did to the Jordan just what he had done to the Red Sea when he dried it up before us until we had crossed over. He did this so that all the peoples of the earth might know that the hand of the Lord is powerful and so that you might always fear the Lord your God."
24:14 "Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord.
12:14,15 If you fear the Lord and serve and obey him and do not rebel against his commands, and if both you and the king who reigns over you follow the Lord your God--good! But if you do not obey the Lord, and if you rebel against his commands, his hand will be against you, as it was against your fathers.
12:24 But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you.
23:3-4 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: 'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
23:4 he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'
16:25-26 For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.
17:9,10 They taught throughout Judah, taking with them the Book of the Law of the Lord; they went around to all the towns of Judah and taught the people. The fear of the Lord fell on all the kingdoms of the lands surrounding Judah, so that they did not make war with Jehoshaphat.
20:29 The fear of God came upon all the kingdoms of the countries when they heard how the Lord had fought against the enemies of Israel.
5:9 So I continued, "What you are doing is not right. Shouldn't you walk in the fear of our God to avoid the reproach of our Gentile enemies?
1:1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.
1:8-9 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied.
2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason."
23:13-15 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store. That is why I am terrified before him; when I think of all this, I fear him.
28:28 And he said to man, 'The fear of the Lord--that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.'"
2:11 Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling.
15:1-4 Lord, who may dwell in your sanctuary? Who may live on your holy hill? He whose walk is blameless and who does what is righteous, ... who despises a vile man but honors those who fear the Lord,
19:9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous.
22:23 You who fear the Lord, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
25:12-14 Who, then, is the man that fears the Lord? He will instruct him in the way chosen for him. He will spend his days in prosperity, and his descendants will inherit the land. The Lord confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.
31:19 How great is your goodness, which you have stored up for those who fear you, which you bestow in the sight of men on those who take refuge in you.
33:8-9 Let all the earth fear the Lord; let all the people of the world revere him. For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm.
33:18-19 But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love, to deliver them from death and keep them alive in famine.
34:7-11 The angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them. Taste and see that the Lord is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him. Fear the Lord, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing. The lions may grow weak and hungry, but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing. Come, my children, listen to me; I will teach you the fear of the Lord.
36:1-2 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes. For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.
40:3 He put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to our God. Many will see and fear and put their trust in the Lord.
52:5-7 Surely God will bring you down to everlasting ruin: He will snatch you up and tear you from your tent; he will uproot you from the land of the living. The righteous will see and fear; they will laugh at him, saying, "Here now is the man who did not make God his stronghold but trusted in his great wealth and grew strong by destroying others!"
55:18-19 He ransoms me unharmed from the battle waged against me, even though many oppose me. God, who is enthroned forever, will hear them and afflict them - men who never change their ways and have no fear of God.
60:4 But for those who fear you, you have raised a banner to be unfurled against the bow.
61:5 For you have heard my vows, O God; you have given me the heritage of those who fear your name.
65:8 Those living far away fear your wonders; where morning dawns and evening fades you call forth songs of joy.
76:7-8 You alone are to be feared. Who can stand before you when you are angry? From heaven you pronounced judgment, and the land feared and was quiet -
76:11-12 Make vows to the Lord your God and fulfill them; let all the neighboring lands bring gifts to the One to be feared. He breaks the spirit of rulers; he is feared by the kings of the earth.
85:9 Surely his salvation is near those who fear him, that his glory may dwell in our land.
86:11Teach me your way, O Lord, and I will walk in your truth; give me an undivided heart, that I may fear your name.
89:7 In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him.
90:11 Who knows the power of your anger? For your wrath is as great as the fear that is due you.
96:4-5 For great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; he is to be feared above all gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols, but the Lord made the heavens.
103:11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him;
103:13 As a father has compassion on his children, so the Lord has compassion on those who fear him;
103:17-18 But from everlasting to everlasting the Lord's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children - with those who keep his covenant and remember to obey his precepts.
111:5 He provides food for those who fear him; he remembers his covenant forever.
111:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.
112:1-2 Praise the Lord. [b] Blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who finds great delight in his commands. His children will be mighty in the land; the generation of the upright will be blessed.
115:11 You who fear him, trust in the Lord-- he is their help and shield.
115:13 he will bless those who fear the Lord-- small and great alike.
119:120 My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws.
128:1-4 Blessed are all who fear the Lord, who walk in his ways. You will eat the fruit of your labor; blessings and prosperity will be yours. Your wife will be like a fruitful vine within your house; your sons will be like olive shoots around your table. Thus is the man blessed who fears the Lord.
130:3-4 If you, O Lord, kept a record of sins, O Lord, who could stand? But with you there is forgiveness; therefore you are feared.
145:19-20 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him; he hears their cry and saves them. The Lord watches over all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy.
147:11 the Lord delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.
1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.
1:29-31 Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord, since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke, they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.
2:1-5 My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
3:7-8 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and shun evil. This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones.
8:13 To fear the Lord is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.
9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
10:27 The fear of the Lord adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short.
14:2 He whose walk is upright fears the Lord, but he whose ways are devious despises him.
14:16 A wise man fears the Lord and shuns evil, but a fool is hotheaded and reckless.
14:26-27 He who fears the Lord has a secure fortress, and for his children it will be a refuge. The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a man from the snares of death.
15:16 Better a little with the fear of the Lord than great wealth with turmoil.
15:33 The fear of the Lord teaches a man wisdom, and humility comes before honour.
16:6 Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil.
19:23 The fear of the Lord leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble.
22:4 Humility and the fear of the Lord bring wealth and honor and life.
23:17-18 Do not let your heart envy sinners, but always be zealous for the fear of the Lord. There is surely a future hope for you, and your hope will not be cut off.
24:21-22 Fear the Lord and the king, my son, and do not join with the rebellious, for those two will send sudden destruction upon them, and who knows what calamities they can bring?
28:14 Blessed is the man who always fears the Lord, but he who hardens his heart falls into trouble.
29:25 Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe.
31:30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised.
7:16-18 Do not be overrighteous, neither be overwise-- why destroy yourself? Do not be overwicked, and do not be a fool-- why die before your time? It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. The man who fears God will avoid all extremes.
8:12-13 Although a wicked man commits a hundred crimes and still lives a long time, I know that it will go better with God-fearing men, who are reverent before God. Yet because the wicked do not fear God, it will not go well with them, and their days will not lengthen like a shadow.
12:13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
8:12-13 Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy [f]; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread,
11:2-3 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him -- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord -- and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.
33:6 He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the Lord is the key to this treasure.
50:10 Who among you fears the Lord and obeys the word of his servant? Let him who walks in the dark, who has no light, trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God.
59:19 From the west, men will fear the name of the Lord, and from the rising of the sun, they will revere his glory. For he will come like a pent-up flood that the breath of the Lord drives along.
5:22-24 Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence? I made the sand a boundary for the sea, an everlasting barrier it cannot cross. The waves may roll, but they cannot prevail; they may roar, but they cannot cross it. But these people have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away. They do not say to themselves, 'Let us fear the Lord our God, who gives autumn and spring rains in season, who assures us of the regular weeks of harvest.'
26:19 Did not Hezekiah fear the Lord and seek his favor? And did not the Lord relent, so that he did not bring the disaster he pronounced against them?
32:39-40 I will give them singleness of heart and action, so that they will always fear me for their own good and the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me.
6:26-27 "I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel. "For he is the living God and he endures forever; his kingdom will not be destroyed, his dominion will never end. He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth. He has rescued Daniel from the power of the lions."
1:15-16 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm. At this the men greatly feared the Lord, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows to him.
3:7 I said to the city, 'Surely you will fear me and accept correction!' Then her dwelling would not be cut off, nor all my punishments come upon her. But they were still eager to act corruptly in all they did.
1:14 For I am a great king," says the Lord Almighty, "and my name is to be feared among the nations.
3:5 "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty.
1:50 His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.
8:24-25 He got up and rebuked the wind and the raging waters; the storm subsided, and all was calm. "Where is your faith?" he asked his disciples. In fear and amazement they asked one another, "Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him."
12:4-5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
23:40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
7:30-32 "After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice: 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
9:31Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.
10:34-35 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.
5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.
6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.
2:12-13 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.
12:21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."
1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.
2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.
3:14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened."
14:6-7 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
19:5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying: "Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both small and great!"
Fear like many other words throughout history had a slightly different meaning. Perhaps you can look it up?
Fear doesn't mean fear any more? Gotcha.
Of course, your right calynbana. Here is the definition according to the 1828 Webster's. Perhaps that will help those confused by it's use in the bible.
FEAR, n. [See the Verb.]
1. A painful emotion or passion excited by an expectation of evil, or the apprehension of impending danger. Fear expresses less apprehension than dread, and dread less than terror and fright. The force of this passion, beginning with the most moderate degree, may be thus expressed, fear, dread, terror, fright. Fear is accompanied with a desire to avoid or ward off the expected evil. Fear is an uneasiness of mind, upon the thought of future evil likely to befall us.
Fear is the passion of our nature which excites us to provide for our security, on the approach of evil.
2. Anxiety; solicitude.
The principal fear was for the holy temple.
3. The cause of fear.
Thy angel becomes a fear.
4. The object of fear.
Except the God of Abraham, and the fear of Isaac, had been with me. Gen 31.
5. Something set or hung up to terrify wild animals, by its color or noise. Is. 24. Jer. 48.
6. In scripture, fear is used to express a filial or a slavish passion. In good men, the fear of God is a holy awe or reverence of God and his laws, which springs from a just view and real love of the divine character, leading the subjects of it to hate and shun every thing that can offend such a holy being, and inclining them to aim at perfect obedience. This is filial fear.
I will put my fear in their hearts. Jer. 32.
Slavish fear is the effect or consequence of guilt; it is the painful apprehension of merited punishment. Rom. 8.
The love of God casteth out fear. 1John 4.
7. The worship of God.
I will teach you the fear of the Lord. Ps. 34.
8. The law and word of God.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever. Ps. 19.
9. Reverence; respect; due regard.
Render to all their dues; fear to whom fear. Rom. 13.
FEAR, v.t. [L. vereor.]
1. To feel a painful apprehension of some impending evil; to be afraid of; to consider or expect with emotions of alarm or solicitude. We fear the approach of an enemy or of a storm. We have reason to fear the punishment of our sins.
I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. Ps. 23.
2. To reverence; to have a reverential awe; to venerate.
This do, and live: for I fear God. Gen. 42.
3. To affright; to terrify; to drive away or prevent approach by fear, or by a scarecrow. [This seems to be the primary meaning, but now obsolete.]
We must not make a scarecrow of the law, setting it up to fear the birds of prey.
FEAR, v.i. To be in apprehension of evil; to be afraid; to feel anxiety on account of some expected evil.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2Cor. 11.
Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. Gen. 15.
Good to know that you are reading some Bible verses though :p
Wow Mark! That's a lot of Bible verses. Is that how you read your Bible...you do a keyword search for specific words and then pull out the verse you want to support your cause without considering the context of the word being used?
Yes the word fear does have different meanings when applied to what is being said. When God is passing judgement for evil deeds, then yes you need to fear him as in "be afraid" of the consequences of your actions. In other instances to "fear God" means to reverently respect His power and glory.
But hey, your a smart man Mark, I don't need to explain this to you.
Reverently respecting someone who is a great human being in no way means I "fear" that person. I only fear a person if I am afraid he/she will do something to me. Would you "fear" Ghandi or MLK Jr.?
So - "fear " doesn't mean "fear." ?
You would have thought they could have used the words "be afraid" or "reverently respect," instead of "fear."
Or - you are simply not being truthful. You know your Invisible Super Daddy will throw you in the lake of fire with the unbelievers for doing that. Right?
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Not that you should be fearful of that. Probably doesn't mean what it says huh?
Mark, the word fearful in Rev. 21:8, rendered cowardly in some translations, has been a trouble to some conscientious ones, who have had fears more or less in all their set-apart experience. It may be well, therefore, to inquire what kind of fear is meant here. It is not fear of our own weakness, or of the power of the enemy. It is not fear of sinning, or of falling out by the way, or of coming short at last. Such fear drives the believer to the Father for help. But the fear mentioned here is connected with unbelief, a fear of the ridicule and opposition of the world, a fear to trust the Father and venture out upon His promises, a fear that He will not fulfill what He has declared, and that consequently one will be left to shame and loss for believing in Him. Cherishing such fear, one can be only half-hearted in His service. This is most dishonoring to Him. This is the fear which we are required not to have (Isa.51:7). This is the fear which brings into condemnation here, and will finally bring all who are controlled by it into the lake of fire, which is the second death. I see you have been running into those who do not have this fear on the forums lately. And you are quite right, believers as well as non-belivers will be thrown into the lake of fire. My humble opinion.
So - believe or be punished huh? Fear me (in various guises) or get the lake of fire. That is what I said. Not a loving god at all. A despot.
Well look at it this way. He's merciful, no eternal burning, it'll be over quickly :-).
That is not what the majick book says - is it?
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
I wonder if any of you guys ever bother actually reading the bible?
Good morning Mark. I also wonder if people actually read the Book. My, for a naysayer, you seem to be bent on a literal interpretation. Let's see if we can shed some light on this matter. Rom.3:14 clearly tells us the consequences for unrepentent sin, DEATH (emphasis), not eternal torment, punishment. For the life of me I cannot understand why so many "Christians" (Paulites?) can't seem to grasp this simple explanation, especially if Paul said it :-). That alone should end the controversy of a fiery torment.The doctrine of the natural immortality of the soul. This also was derived from the pagan world, and the "fathers of the Church" became the foster-fathers of this pernicious doctrine as a part of devine truth. This error nullifies the two great Scripture doctrines of the resurrection and the general judgement, and furnishes an open door to modern spiritism. From it sprang such other evil doctrines as the conscious state of the dead, saint worship, mariology, purgatory, reward at death, prayers and baptisms for the dead, eternal torment, and universal salvation. The wicked are to be punished according to their works. The Scriptures declare that they shall be rewarded according to their deeds. That the degree of suffering which each one is to endure is taken into the account as a part of the punishment for his sins, is evident: "That servant, which knew his master's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required" (Luke12:47,48). In other words, the more wicked a person was, the longer it will take for the fire to consume them. All have sinned. If not repented, no matter how few ,or "small" ,or if you claim you did not know, their consumption will be short. Satan and his minions, will burn a lot longer. But as the Book says, he WILL be ashes. Not saying my understanding is correct, but interpretation, is everything. Shalum
Right - so your were incorrect when you said: Well look at it this way. He's merciful, no eternal burning, it'll be over quickly.
This is merely your interpretation and you have no idea how long unbelievers get tormented for - do you?
It is clear that unbelievers get the lake of fire - yes? You agree to that? You just don't know how long for......
All that can definitely be said is not for all eternity. Does it matter? How long do you want it to take? Five minutes, five hours, five days. Ashes my friend. That's not long enough? It's clear that believers and non-believers can meet the same fate. Now let me ask you. Do you read the Book? It is also clear that there is other business to be attended to, so it won't take a lot of time. But then one might say, it took a 1000 yrs. to get to that point. Read it in context Mark. The surrounding verses, before and after. You know what I'm talking about. There are other events that will be taking place after the cleansing. Just like you brought up all those verses to try and show fear. If you seek sincerly and earnestly you will find corroboration. Daniel and Isaiah would be a nice start.
(You would have thought they could have used the words "be afraid" or "reverently respect," instead of "fear.")
The language they used in the Bible is riddled with word variations that need to be kept in context with what is being said in order to determine the correct meaning.
Similar to the way we speak today. If I tell you that I have a "hot" car, without further explanation, there are a number of different ways you can interpret the meaning of that statement. 1.) I have a stolen car. 2.) I have an extremely awesome, great looking car. 3.) The temperature is well above everything around it and it feels extremely warm to the touch.
The Bible is the same way, you need to know the whole story in order to understand the meaning of the words being used.
(Or - you are simply not being truthful. You know your Invisible Super Daddy will throw you in the lake of fire with the unbelievers for doing that. Right? wink)
Nothing I have said has been untruthfuI. I do not live in fear of God, as in "afraid" of God and his retribution. Forgiveness and grace are part of the plan of salvation and they cover a multitude of mistakes. If I make an honest mistake, God has provided the means for correction. If I maliciously mislead with the intent to deceive, then I will accept responsibility for my actions and receive my just reward.
Once I figured out I wasn't perfect (LOL) it became a lot easier to accept forgiveness for my errors and stop trying to "earn" my way into Heaven. Access to Heaven is a gift from God, not an entitlement.
Right - so rewriting the bible in order to hide the fact that you have to fear god is not "untruthful"?
Because god will crush you like a bug according to most of the quotes I added. You are intentionally trying to deceive me by lying that you know what was meant when they used the word "fear," and it doesn't mean what they said. Be honest - you are defending your untenable belief - that is all.
It is so much fun having a conversation with you. You have one of the most creative imaginations of anyone I have ever met.
Of course I am defending my belief. Isn't that what you're doing? If that's what I believe to be truth, then it's not lying, right?
I'm not rewriting the Bible, I just read and study the Bible to seek understanding, verses reading and pulling out parts that only support my point of view.
If I defend my belief, you call me a liar. So what am I suppose to do, unquestionably agree with every statement you make?
But - you are being dishonest in order to defend your irrational beliefs by pretending they are not as they are. Be honest - say it like it is. Fear god or else.........
You have no clue that what was written was intended to have a different meaning than what was actually written. It just doesn't fit with your need for a loving god - so you lie about what it means. This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
I am being honest in defending my beliefs.
I honestly believe in all sincerity that it is NOT "Fear God or else......"
The God I know is a God of love. He does not want to scare us into obedience.
There you go again, I disagree, so you call me a liar.
If you would actually take the time to study the Bible, instead of just read it, you might just learn something.
How is what I'm doing any different than what you are doing?
You take one verse out of context so you can use it to fit your need for a tyrannical cruel unloving God.
Now who's the liar?
I didn't take one verse out of context - I quoted dozens of instances. Please stop lying about me.
I have studied the bible. Odd you think I have not. It is the most ridiculous piece of nonsense I have ever studied. "Fear god or else," about sums it up. I especially like the bit where he murders everything on the planet for not doing what he wanted.
I can only assume you have not actually read this book - I suggest doing so - you might learn something.
Tyrannically cruel unloving god also sounds about right - he burns unbelievers and liars in the lake of fire - did you know that? What a loving Super Daddy...........
I stand corrected. Forgive me. I should have said "verses" out of context.
If it were not for the grace of God, you would cease to exist, and yet you are still ungrateful. He allows you to say whatever you want, do whatever you want, and believe whatever you want, without so much as lifting a finger to stop you. If he really was the tyrannical "My way or else" kind of God, don't you think He would have put a stop to people like you by now?
Oh! Wait a minute, He doesn't exist. So this discussion has all just been in fun anyway.
If He does exist, and He allows people to formulate there own opinions and behave in ways that are contrary to His laws, that would prove that He is at least a tolerant God and not a, what did you call Him a "despot".
If He is a God of "Fear Me or else", why would He provide a means for those who have broken His rules an opportunity for reconciliation? A cruel unloving tyrant would simply eliminate them. Since He does provide a means for reconciliation, that would prove that He is a compassionate loving God.
I don't know, he eliminated a lot of people in the OT and without warning or rules to live by. He then said he'd never do that again and destroyed two cities.
He said He'd never wipe out the human race again, not never destroy anybody or anything.
Correct and he appear to admit to having made a mistake and had regret.
Yes, He did say He regretted it and would never do it again, which he hasn't. But you said that His destruction of Sodom and Gamorrah (sp? it's late...) constituted going back on that. At least you implied it. There's an entire discussion about "jealous and vengeful God" but the destruction of two cities does not equal a wholesale disregard of His own statement.
You are correct, but it was along the same "kill'em all path" and that is what I was trying to imply. It's of course entirely possible I didn't very well articulate my thoughts.
It's still a little more complex than that, though. There are some serious differences, including that before the Flood, God decided that men were all inherently evil and nobody anywhere was doing anything good (except of course Noah,) whereas in the cases of Sodom and Gamorrah he tells Abraham that there is a great outcry against these two wicked cities. There's more as well, but it's still not a straight line parallel.
Except he hadn't warned them or given them laws to live by. How could they have known they were doing something wrong?
That's one of those things that have been debated, and if God chose to wipe out those two outposts but not others, there must (at least from an ancient Israelite point of view) been something especially egregious.
Otherwise, really, why stop with those two?
I forgive you.
Sorry - you lost me. We were discussing that the bible tells you many time to "fear god," and - you have zero reason to think those words mean something else.
This word salad you just offered did not address that. "Tolerant" of his own creation." "Loving - but only if you follow his laws?" Broken His rules? Let me guess - you know what the rules are?
I wonder if you realize how silly this all sounds?
This does not sound like a loving god - no. It sounds like a complete psychopath. "I love you so much, I am going to give you an opportunity to not be thrown in the lake of fire, but - only if you do what some King wrote in a book for ya. Except those who go against the Holy Spirit - they get the lake regardless."
Not sounding like my kind of loving - no. In fact - it makes no sense at all. None.
Mark, far be it from me to show you an error... But forgot/neglected to mention that he killed everything on the planet except one family out of anger because of something his own family was involved in and didn't warn people as to what he expected or what the ramifications were for doing what they were doing. Same thing with the twin cities he destroyed. No warning, just get the preferred blood line out and destroy everyone.
Good thing we don't discipline our children this way!
Do you think it's possible that the reason you believe God to be love that is what you want God to be? There are those who fear God perhaps because that is the God they need. Perhaps you're getting what you need?
Perhaps, but might it also be possible that our human, modern and western conception of "love": is perhaps inadequate?
I know it's inadequate because recent research has showed that love is an addiction to affection and a stroked ego. During a break up the body actually goes through withdrawal. I doesn't sound as nice as romance, but if you think about it, it makes sense.
In a way, you just made my point for me. What "recent research" (by the way, can I have the source?) has shown is that the modern, western understanding of love is exactly that, the modern, narcissistic, self-centered western understanding of love. Since "love" can therefore be reduced to (literally) nothing more than a chemical reaction producing addiction (a need for a greater and greater stimulus in return for diminishing enjoyment) then "love" doesn't really exist, does it? And mom's are an illusion, as well...
http://www.livescience.com/6695-romanti … chers.html
This was not the source where I picked up this information, but it covers the same study. I saw it on TV, but I'm yet to find it.
Chris It's important to understand what are bodies are going through, It sounds a little bit of a downer, but it changes nothing except it may help people get over a break up. The young are especially susceptible to depression and suicide and this information can benefit them. My 15 year old just went through a breakup and I think explaining the process helped his through it.
Um, maybe I need to be a bit more clear. Although there is certainly attraction and pattern (liking somebody and getting used to being with them) there is more to love than that. In a sense, and I'm a little hesitant to say something that may sound flip because I certainly don't intend it, my loss is different more in quantity than quality from your 15-year-old's.
As I'm sure you've heard, the Greeks had four different words for love, and of course Protestants (at least the conservative ones here in the States) like to cite AGAPE, the selfless love of someone who would give their lives for someone else. That's what I'm trying to get at. I don't want to belittle the kind of love you're talking about because it's powerful and there are many people (those who "fall in and out of love") who crave that experience, almost like a drug. Nor do I wish to belittle what your child is experiencing. But if we reduce our understanding of love to a mere biological function, well all I can say is God help us.
Sorry Chris, I certainly meant no disrespect for the love between you and your wife. I still can't begin to know what you're going through. I meet my wife 30 years ago, so I understand that new love is not the same as old love. I have unfortunately seen my fair share of passing away at a far to young age. My sister lost her husband when he was about 42 leaving behind two children and my sister in law lost her husband when he was about 38 leaving behind two very you kids. My Father in law lost his wife when she was 55 and the list goes on.
Forgive me, I in no way wanted to belittle your love for your wife.
Please, it's all right. I'm the one who brought it up, not you, so I understand you meant no disrespect. And I'm sorry to hear about your sister and sister-in-law, having two kids aged 11 and 9 I know how tough that is.
I was a little hesitant to use it as an example for exactly that reason, I don't want to belittle it either. It still hurts quite a bit and I expect it always will.
My younger son asked me the other day if I met a woman and we liked each other, would we get married? I told him the truth, I can't even imagine meeting another woman, let alone wanting to marry one. When you've been married for a long time, it's tough to think about being with someone else. I understand in the old days they kind of had to, but I still have trouble thinking that I might ever meet someone else.
I think it is a testament to your integrity. I know when my mother in law passed away, my father in law wanted a new one right away, he felt anger towards God for doing this to him, because he thought he had done everything right. It showed me he has a fragile ego and a sense of entitlement. Within weeks he tried to convince us and my young children that this new girl friend was indeed his wife reincarnated or something because of some kind of dream he had.
I couldn't imagine me trying to replace my wife. I think that would be it for me. Especially with young kids. New wives come with their own baggage and sometimes their own kids. I personally think it's an important time for the kids to know that they come first. Any new partners would want to come first and that would be confusing for the kids. They are what's important, but I know I don't have to tell you that.
Thank you very much, I hope I deserve the praise. Yes, the kids absolutely do come first, and yes new partners of any kind come with their own baggage and sometimes their own kids. My own father's fairly quick remarriage is a source of occasionally bitter commentary from my mother to this day. I love my stepmom and I love my half-sister (I usually just call her my sister) but when my father passed, it still felt a little weird that my brother and I only got a little money while any mementos we might have wanted were the property of his wife and daughter.
And it becomes even more strained if one or the other person has special needs children.
No one would want to rebel against God with Him in heaven. No one capable of love could ever reject the source of love.
If you don't want to worship God don't. God wants a relationship with you. The point of free will is for that you make the decision. God wants people to follow him, but he isn't a religion. Everyone who says religion is this or that is correct. Religion is predictably going to run amok, just like democracy, The Jew don't have a religion. They have a way of life, a culture that revolves around God. Christians, I am sorry to say frequently become religious and forget what they were called to do. Worshiping God is a relationship for me. If you don't spend time with someone how can you know them. The nice thing about God is he doesn't force you to be in relationship with him. Society tells us what is popular in relationships then makes us feel badly if we don't meet societies requirements. People tell us what is good or bad according to their own desires and opinions. God spoke and hasn't changed. I am particle to things that never change.
Hmm...yes I agree rocket. I studied the bible for years...and of course fell for that for the first time when I ran into a evangelist that wanted to play God. I think it it damages people in the Christian faith believing God is just about judgment and punishment!
Free will is choosing to live in the light and in the light there is no darkness. So of course it is your choice always whether you follow him or choose the opposite. It's a struggle most fight with and as they grow they learn they don't have to live in fear, judgment, and punishment because they have been redeemed and restored. I guess it frustrates me that we focus so much on the punishment side of it. Jesus even said love is the most important lesson to learn. You can choose to stop worshiping him just as much as the other. There are many parts to the whole and so many lessons to be learned. So of course choosing and worshiping is always a matter of whether you choose or don't choose. That simple!
Well I'm not God So I can Speak for him. I know he's higher than me. So his ways are mysterious. Beyond my understanding. I respect his authority and I respect the word. I will not add to them or take away from them.
I just can say like Johnny Cash who major problems with drugs etc, or prisoners, or other people that have changed their lives. It's hard to believe that he would forgive them, have mercy on them, redeem them just to throw them into the lake of fire. Now I can see maybe if you never changed your ways and were like into Satanic stuff, or something very dark and hurting people purposely and out to murder and destroy people well that would be the ones I feel would be in the lake of fire. Well I'm not God, nor ever will play God. There are places you don't go, or touch and for me I just do my best every day. He's my judge and jury so I will face him one day.
So - you don't understand English?
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Pretty simple really. Don't believe in god - go into the lake of fire with Satan and the whoremongers.
What are you unable to understand? Perhaps I can explain it to you.
Doesn't really fit with your previous statement either:
Which is it exactly?
in simple terms: lol you choose life or death. You choose to breathe or not breathe. Just a matter of which way you'd like to look at it!
So - no? You don't understand English? You are either scared that god will judge you - as you seem to be - or you reject the whole idea.
I think I'm accountable for what I say and do in other people's lives by word of mouth, and my actions that follow. I believe i should be held accountable, because I believe we need justice in our lives for those that harm others intentionally. The thing is if I killed someone...I've hurt them, their family, and caused pain and suffering. Now if there was no God how would you feel about that if someone did that to you, and they totally went free without any obligation. I think there are certain things we can change, and we can be redeemed, but things like taking lives, rape, and hard core things I do think we need Justice. So I lay it in Gods Hands those people will pay the ultimate price.
Odd - you still did not answer my question.
There is no god - your pipe dreams of judgement are just that - pipe dreams.
hmm...i understand people like you and me both play our part on this stage to learn certain things from each other. The Chaos is needed...so of course I believe in God and you don't the perfect balance. Maybe you just sighned up to be an atheist. And play the part well. lol
Because you think there should be justice you think there is justice? Of course it should be as you describe, but that doesn't make it as you describe. I would like to be six feet tall with a thick head of hair, but it's not that way.
Oh, I get it. You just don't want to say it, but you believe it don't you?
You seem to be uncomfortable with the idea of hell, and I applaud you for it, since it is a morally atrocious doctrine. As an agnostic, I'm glad hell causes you discomfort when you ponder it; it should!
Sorry, but it isn't a choice if there is punishment attached, it then becomes an ultimatum. That simpler.
Hmm...ultimatum...yes I guess that is what an Evangelist would say! I'm not an evangelist so I don't go telling people they're going to hell. I tell them to love each other. So I guess If an Evangelist wants to judge me for being a different sect of 38,000 christian branches. We have a mighty problem here. I'm not going to hell just because Christian's decide to fight and argue over who's wrong and right in what church, and some times I just wonder what God thinks about all this mess! Not what the bible says to do! But what man chooses to do!
I learn from you that I can stand my grown and beliefs, but still love you as an atheist for what you are, and don't need to change you or fix you. Just accept what is, is. Walking in harmony with an Athiest without judgment or punishment. What you learn is your own thing. lol You just teach people like me to love who ever is in front of us unconditionally.
Each of us has a will to guide with our mind now. We learned to guide our will from our parents, our environment, our society when we were young and throughout life. After we die and we do not even have our mind anymore, how can we guide our "will?" Strangely enough any answer will only be a guess. I have never met anyone who has had a near-death experience and then come back with an answer. And when one hears about near-death experiences from others, one doesn't know if these people are telling the truth or not. They might just be telling a fantastic story or revealing an inner brain hallucination.
What was the point of this forum again?
by SparklingJewel 12 years ago
Of the many other slippery slope societal changes that have gone on without much notice...here is another one to look out for.without vision, the people perish...regardless of your spiritual/religious views, this is importanthttp://catholic.org/national/national_s … amp;page=1
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