should a person still be considered a christian if he or she believes in evilution (evolution?)?
God created everything, not some big bang theory. just a little over 6000 years ago, not millions. just my thoughts.
Only the death of Jesus on the cross can make someone a Christian. God does not require that our doctrine be perfect, because he accepted His Son as a Perfect Sacrifice.
Only Jesus gets to decide who's a Christian, and I, for one, am grateful that my wrong opinions and understanding of the Bible are weaker than His blood.
I suspect, when I get to Heaven, Jesus will not ask my opinion on who He should let in.
Hey BDaz (hugs)
I agree. I really don't think God cares at all whether or not a person believes in evolution. Though I can never really understand why it is even an issue with creationsist.
I for one, am perfectly comfortable if not completely satisfied with God being the one who snapped is Almighty fingers and made a boom! I lump it with, "how the hell am I supposed to know."
I am pretty sure I can be absolutly certain that God really don't care if I come to believe that he created the Universe through the Big Bang. Anyways at this point, the theory could change and when it does then I will stay, "yeah sure, it came to be by some force that we are incapable of understanding, just theory left to our imaginations.
I think it is pretty cool, and besides if we are wrong then I would imagine God is getting a good laugh.
What part of truth is a lie; what part of a lie is based in truth? It would seem to me the the theory of evolution, ( man making himself into a god) would be in contradiction and opposition to what Christ teaches; which begs my question of in what part of a lie is there truth to be found?
Where is this exact time period of "6000" years ago mentioned? Even those people I have met so far who staunchly believe in creation haven't ever mentioned that creation took place just "6000" years ago.
This comes from working through the genealogy in the bible. Assuming a few 800-year-olds
I haven't read the genealogy hence did you mean that it is mentioned in the bible that creation took place "6000" years back. I didn't get the second part about 800 year olds either
If you work backwards though the "Adam begot Cain and Abel, begot...."
And assuming Adam was 800 years old (like it says) you come up with around 6,000 years for the age of the earth.
http://www.independencebaptist.org/News … %20Old.htm
Thanks for clarifying this for me. I am not sure if lots of people believe in this literally
God revitalized the earth approx 6000 years ago. That is NOT saying He CREATED it 6000 years ago. Then He destroyed it in the flood, and through Noah revitalized it again. Lucifer (before his title was changed to Satan) had his throne here and 1/3 of the angels occupied the earth; that was a LOT more than 6000 years ago; probably more into the millions if not billions. God doesn't really explain how many "ages" the earth has gone through, He just reveals those that pertain to man and His plan concerning him.
This is rubbish. Everyone knows (through proofs and evidences) that the Flying Spaghetti Monster made the world. How else do you explain pasta? Exactly - can't be done. Open your eyes to the TRUTH.
Another convenience based myt..crap. dont you know that noah loaded revitalized the earth with the animals he loaded onto the boat? It is written so it has to be a fact...I mean, come on!
This revitalization business is actually a new one on me. Who knew?
Wat a jouneyman anyway?
Hey Mr. Knowles, have you ever been on an archeological dig? You know where they dig up bones? I have, in both Montana, and West Virginia, in the coal fields. In fact, I have several fossiles in my collection, some of which are estimated at being millions/billions of years old.
And this explains how your god "revitalized the earth"
Wat a fossile?
I know an awful lot of dedicated, faithful Christians who have absolutely no problem with evolution. It's the standard here in the UK. It seems to be only USA-ians who want to tie themselves in knots over it!
For the 1000th time, I would like to clear up a few myths about evolution.
It has nothing to do with the Big Bang Theory.
It has nothing to do with abiogenesis, the creation of life. Darwin clearly stated that - Make Money's article is on the right track with that.
No such claims have been made, yet they seem to get tacked on by creationists, as a feeble attempt at burning strawmen.
Evolution explains 'how,' as for the 'why?'.......different question!
I have tried to explain this -
Ignorance is not an excuse
They are not interested. Education will be the death of religion. Not in my lifetime I suspect, but when it is gone we will have one less thing to start wars over
You should not have done that - I now have another excuse for procrastination! Very good thread.
I don't know if you read the New Scientist mythbuster, but it is very informative.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 … tions.html
I like that
And if you are in the mood for some more procrastination, take a look at this one -
Atheism Rules !
You were not here for these - this one has it's own page rank and I think is the longest thread on hubpages except for one that was started to have a long thread
Just starting page 12........
Check out this site:
You can smell the fear. Don't be afraid - the truth will set you free.
What fear? I fear the LORD. And you should too. But that's only my opinion.
Tell you what - you fear all the magical, invisible super beings you want and stop telling me what I should do.
I care not one whit for your worthless opinion of what I should be doing. In fact, this is a perfect example of why people are getting sick and tired of religion..............
I wasn't telling u what to do, I was merley stating my opinion. Just like you on athiestism, you can speak your opinion too. Everyone is entitled to one
But your opinion was about what I should do and you are not entitled to an opinion on what I should do. Or do you think you are entitled? As a christian it is your duty to have an opinion on what I should do? Is that it?
I am sure you are not interested in what I think you should do. Or do you think I have voiced an opinion on what you should do? If so,please quote me. Easy to do.
Did you even get an education?
Stop reading between the lines!
Your trying to put words into my mouth. It seems as though you just want to debate. I'm out. It was a simple question origionaly that I asked, that's all.
Should you need to even ask of my education, I THINK your trying to hide insecurities.
Putting words into your mouth? How am I doing that? This is what you said?:
Your opinion is as to what I should do.
And you are not entitled to have an opinion on what I should do. Or do you think you are?
That is the bit that I cannot understand - why fear the Lord. He taught peace, tolerance and compassion. Only my opinion!
The term has some translation issues ... the definition of the fear of the LORD is found in Proverbs 8:13: "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil;"
Not "evil people" but the act of evil itself.
Words are meaningful only within a given context.
Thus if I say ... "I fear the Lord" and you don't have the context it may seem inconsistent with the verse that says "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, " (2 Tim 1:7)
Unless, we understand that for historical and cultural reasons, that the term "Fear of the Lord" is the same thing as "hating evil" we could become a bit confused.
Jesus said "Make disciples" not "Make converts" and it is a sad fact, that many "Christians" don't take the time to make disciples ... who are "students of discipline" .. but instead, recruit members. Thus claiming to "Fear the Lord" in word, but not in deed.
Thanks for clearing that up, BDazzler - my knowledge of the Bible is a little limited. I joined the church choir, daft smock and all, just to avoid Sunday School. Having lots of nice old ladies give us chocolates and cakes helped, too - I had a beautiful soprano voice in those days.
That does seem to make more sense - I believe that evil is the absence of good, therefore doing good deeds fills the void. I can go along with that.
The "fear" you speak of is "RESPECT". The term "fear" is used in terms different from which it is considered in today today.
Fair enough - thanks for clearing that up.
Why not use the word 'respect?' - it would prevent a lot of misunderstandings. Language is the cause of so many problems - two people can be completely unaware that they are using different definitions.
Fear sounds very Middle Ages
Sulfi, apparently we're still stuck back then. Best to don your leotard and grab your pitch fork and march to the huge walls of Christendom and batter down the enormous door about to fall on your face, eh?
In other words, as much as I even hate it, best to reason with backwards people in a backward fashion.
I liked to think so. I don't believe in either of the Creation stories. However, I do find the Lilith version to be a much better read.
Darwin never said that "God" wasn't the creator of life. I look at like this; he just suggest that God created life differently that originally thought.
Take the universal picture of Christ... He looks like an Medieval Englishman. Now that everyone realizes that he spoke Arabic and that he was from the Middle East, not England, Christians like myself, find that portrait ridiculous.
Why can't proven science and archeology be for the betterment of Christianity, rather than our downfall?
I find it a bit ridiculous that you call other people "ignorant" about religion, and then say that "everyone" realises he spoke "Arabic".
Aramaic. Not Arabic. Totally different.
Duly noted mommy dearest.... Thanks! Your personal attacks brighten my day.
I find that you never had your own creative opinion when you make remarks on forums. No... can't find any. But I do see you picking on other hubbers, attacking them and making pointless attacks and outline criticism. When have you ever had a truly original idea? Got an opinion on the topic, or are you just conserving brain power for future use?
I doubt I've had many really original ideas - there is nothing new under the son.
As for opinions on topics, and helpful posts, look harder. For example:
Since you like to be my teacher:
It is SUN not son!
I once again disagree with you. There are original ideas, opinions, and writings.
Now I see why you don't have too many.
LondonGirl, did I mention to you, that you brighten my day. I find you... well very brightening! Thanks for the smiles. How is Isaak? Is that his name? He sure is a cute fella.
Whoever wrote right after trying to quote me.... Wrote in between the quote signs, making it look like I said all that stuff above. Part of that is mine and part of it is.....AH Journeyman(sp) my PUNCTUATIONAL SPELLING TUTOR!!! Wanna swap lessons mate?
I separated my comments with " << >> " so that I could respond to parts of both postings within the same response, rather than separating them. If there was confusion created it was unintended. As for the spelling... if you were able to respond to it you must have been able to figure out (read) what I posted. As for lessons... if you are referring to God's word, I am quite certain of the validity of my postings... but if you wish it is up to you to present your opinions; that doesn't mean I won't challenge them, just that you may have to justify them.
"Jesus will not ask my opinion on who He should let in."
Priase God we are not allowed to make decisions like that! Can u imagine, we would not make the right ones. I am thankful i don't have to make major decisions like that.
see i think God does care because if it is a lie what ever that lie may be (evolution), we shouldn't be decieved. nor should we lie.
What part of evolution would change God? Does it change Jesus' sacrifice? No. No it doesn't. Believing in a process in how things change to suite their environments as a means for our survival doesn't discredit God.
A person can believe that God is looking out and making sure we survive by means of evolution. What we cannot do for ourselves, I am sure that God does for us and if that means is evolution, then it is what it is.
I can't just ignore some facts on accounts of what theologist believe. Besides, if believing in evolution as God's solution to our adaptation to survive in this life, and "faith" and a belief in God to survive our very spirit for whatever comes next...then for me, all credit goes to a God that is always looking out.
I can't find a shred of deception in it. And also, how can a person lie if they are speaking what they "know" or "believe" to be the truth?
I don't call atheist liars, I don't call Christians liars, I don't call Buddhist liars and so on and so forth. Just because a persons personal beliefs are different from yours doesn't make everyone else a liar.
It makes us humans doing the best we can with what we are given and accepting the things that bring us inner peace.
There is a difference between a lie and trying to understand. Some Christians, for example believe that the "Day" in Genesis is not 24 hours, but what they call "long creation days" ... others are convinced that it's a 24 hour period....
So, I asked God,and he told me the answer ... and all I can say is that everybody's interpretation is wrong ... and I'm not supposed to go telling everybody the answer, because, as it says in Proverbs 25 ... "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter. "
And it says in Revelation 1 that Jesus has made us kings ...
So, what God told me is that He wants everyone to seek this particular matter out for themselves ... He didn't hide it FROM, us, ... like a father hiding Easter eggs, or the Jewish father hiding the broken bread at passover ... he hid these things so He could have the joy of watching us search for them ...
So, I searched as much as I could ... and I sought Him, and I asked ... all I can say is that God is SO much bigger than our minds can handle, that we aren't even close, either with science or intllectual interpretation of scripture. We have to have the Holy Spirit to even come close to being able to understand it. (See my hub on the process I use to interpret scirpture.)
And when you get the close to God, it really doesn't matter what everybody else thinks.
So you CHOOSE to hide your light under the basket? Didn't Christ say Christians were to be lanterns unto men? Why is Jerusalem built on a hill... "a bright and sHINING city on a hill..." where ALL may see ... Yet you refuse to provide guidance even in ways that would give 'hints" as to where the knowledge you speak of would be found for those seeking it...
Here's one for you... Which part of the law is Spiritual and which secular? And what of tongues...?
I'm sorry, are you talking to me or is this a general question? I have to admit, I've been ignoring most of your posts, I haven't been able to follow your line of thinking all that well.
If you're speaking to me, fortunately I'm not under the law. I'm under grace. I can't stand up to the law. Fortunately, for me, at least, the blood of Jesus is more than sufficient to cover my personal in-sufficiencies.
I try to provide as much guidance as possible. I just don't think I'm capable of having a relationship with God for someone else. If you want me to give hints. Read my hubs. I've dropped plenty of them.
Don't worry, BD, you aren't the only one not following.
I love the word choice....it's such a fun one to imagine but such a difficult one to actually explain. Maybe that's why I've never seen a good 'christian' argument for it...especially since there's the necessity to twist the Bible around and over backward simply to find their own 'personal' explanation for it...
Or one could simply take what is contained in the Bible at face value, you know, all those times predestination is mentioned. Of course that would seriously piss off Mr. Arminius, but I don't really care.
Of course, I'm pre-destined to be an Arminian
The joys of Christian 'in' jokes.
LOL...come on Sulfi, surely you know what a Calvinist is
I hate that religions feel like clubs...you get as many people to join so you can beat the other ones in the end....sort of a sad concept. Given, I am religious, but regardless I don't view it as a cult-club of individuals. Frankly, whoever is a Christian is a christian, so on and so forth...
One day, I may evolve into a creationist
I know Calvin, but had to Wiki Arminius!
Agreed - The spiritual journey is a personal thing, and I feel little need to try to convert anybody to my particular way of thinking. Gets too bloody crowded.
There's too much stress in forcing people to join any religion. I think that when it will happen, it will happen. Some call it fate, others God's will, others yet personal choice and decision making. WHATEVER it is, I don't care at the moment.
And yes, it is funny you had to wiki Arminius. Goes to prove that even though he's very popular, most of his followers are ashamed to even say his name. That alone speaks wonders to me that there's less literature on the dude named Arminius than there should be
May also be a lack in my knowledge - my philosophical understanding is narrow, and based around the philosophy of science. The nearest I came to predestination was Leibniz.
The human brain is a complex machine, and failing to use it is criminal. Adopting somebody else's beliefs without assessing them is denying yourself the gift of free thought. Might as well be robots, otherwise.
Fully with you on that one!
The Catholic Church has decided that believing in evolution does not discredit God. Or, don't you consider Catholics to be "real" christians?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen … 705331.ece
Evolution in no way promotes men making themselves into gods.
Uninvited Writer I believe the author of that TimesOnline article is stretching the truth when he writes "The Vatican has admitted that Charles Darwin was on the right track when he claimed that Man descended from apes." Father Tanzella-Nitti or anyone quoted in the article does not say that.
Catholics and Evolution from the Catholic Encyclopedia states this;
From the above web site there are also these sub titles 'Scientific hypothesis vs. philosophical speculation' and 'The theory of evolution vs. Darwinism'.
Really? It follows the "self will" concept Satan presented to Eve in the Garden of Eden....as well as the proverb regarding the clay telling the potter what it is to be formed into. If evolution is not man TELLING God how he was formed, what is? Is it not man arrogantly screaming to the world..."THIS is how I came into being..." ? In doing so he asserts himself as having formed himself through his own self will of evolving from primates into what he he is today. If that's not claiming to be one's OWN creator what is?
I think of how Satan must Laugh at those who "beat their chests" declaring their own self-righteousness through their willingness to accept assumptions and opinions instead of seeking facts.
No. It is making a statement of recorded scientific facts. Evolution makes it pretty clear that there IS NO GOD.
I am certainly laughing at you and your made up scary monster under the bed.
Using scare tactics to frighten people into believing some bronze age fairy tale is sooo middle ages, darling.
Well, the DNA doesn't match up. In a court of law, if the DNA is not a 100% match there is no proof positive. Unbelievers hinge their arguments on information that is non FACT based, preferring to accept guesses, assumptions, postulations, and suggestions, instead of seeking out the facts to justify their opinions. In man / primates DNA comparisons there is a one strand difference; it may not be but one strand, but that one strand is all it takes to make the claims invalid. I am aware of the new book out by the geneticist who claims to be a 'Christian" and uses evolution to "prove" God by stating that God used evolution to create man. However, in listening to his promotional videos it is worthy to note that he himself states that his work is NOT proof positive and subject to suggestions, educated guesses, postulations, and assumptions... yet he plugs it as "PROOF". Well, if it isn't based on FACTS its NOT proof.
So Mr. Knowles, you can choose to accept fiction over facts, as I told you before; I choose to deal in facts and truth myself as I find the outcomes far less surprising and much more foreseeable.
As for the "fairy tale" and "scare tactics" ... don't you guys EVER come up with any NEW material? You guys (unbelievers ) have been using those same old lines for so long it gets really boring listening to you... can't you liven it up a bit? I mean geez... don't you get tired of the same old song and dance routine after sooo long? Unbelievers used the same lines back in Christ's day... some 2000 + years ago...? Talk about being outdated...!
C'mon Mr Knowles.. get with the program!! Its 2009!! UPDATE it a bit o.k.? I know if you look hard enough and deep enough you can come up with SOMETHING new...some NEW argument to present that you think supports your claims that there is no God ?
Up for it? Lets give it a go...whataya say? But remember, it has to be something NEW, not some old tired worn out argument that has flopped round the scene for a few hundred years like a dead fish whose stink just won't go away.
The burden of proof is in your court actually. So go right ahead.
Now would be good.
A fact or two would be good.....
Actually the burden is yours to prove or disprove. You are the one railing against that which you don't BELIEVE exists. Makes you appear kinda like a hypocrite doesn't it? IF you DO NOT believe in it...why WASTE so much time on it?
So NOTHING NEW to bring to the table Mr. Knowels? No NEW theories, "proofs", thoughts...? NOTHING...?
You dodge the CHALLENGE.... why is that Mr. Knowles? I'm willing to meet you head on; yet you are not WILLING to do so... You CHOOSE to back down, doesn't say much for your "CONVICTIONS" does it? Or would those be OPINIONS?
Take the Challenge Mr.Knowles.... you may learn something.... you aren't OPPOSED to learning are you?
I am well aware that it is logically impossible to prove the non-existence of something, so I don't see how I can do anything other than I am doing.
You are the one saying something invisible exists. But you feel no burden of proof?
Shouting at me because I do not share your beliefs is not really helping either.
If I were shouting at you the entire sentence would be in CAPITALS. My use of CAPITALIZATION is to place emphasis on certain points I wish to draw attention to.
Now, as for proof of things invisible, as I stated, it for YOU to PROVE that they DO NOT exist. Why is that? Because it is your CHOICE to make such claims from the basis of your OPINION, and as we all know, OPINIONS are not rooted in fact nor truth. So therefore, as you CHOOSE to speak from the basis of something NOT founded upon fact, claiming to use the ILLOGICAL to disprove the LOGICAL, it is up to YOU to present the PROOF that backs up those opinions.
I firmly believe that the things of the invisible are in fact visible in their Proofs. (Isn't this the same as what God stated?)
I'll give you the opportunity to PROVE that the invisible doesn't exist:: Even though your own postings on this board (along with those of everyone else) already serve as proof that they do.
Consider Mr. Knowles, your own words and those that you are reading right now. What were they before they existed in the physical world of the material, BEFORE they existed as type on a page? Were they not THOUGHT? Did they not exist within the brain as THOUGHT?
Now, according to your assertion, the INVISIBLE doesn't exist; yet here we are, you are reading the very PHYSICAL translation of that which existed just a short while ago in my brain as the invisible. So, I suppose, logically, the way to prove that THOUGHT is not INVISIBLE would be to present a MATERIAL, PHYSICAL example of it; say a picture or some such thing. Now TAKE NOTE; the RESULT of thought as in this type written word, or a design is NOT a picture of THOUGHT, merely the RESULT of that THOUGHT being formed into the physical / material through action initiated BY the brain upon the eyes, fingers, etc.
Another example would be IMAGINATION. Are you claiming that imagination doesn't exist?
History serves as PROOF that it in fact does. Yet I think you would be hard pressed to present a picture of someone's imagination. You WOULD be able to present a picture of an object or idea that existed within someone's imagination BECOMING or being translated into a material/ physical object or form such as the automobile or a computer, or the internet, but I think you'll find it difficult to present a picture of the ACTUAL POWER known as IMAGINATION.
So there you go Mr. Knowles. You claim, through your opinion, that the invisible doesn't exist. I have presented examples that it in fact does. Now, its up to YOU to prove that it doesn't.
Let me put it simpler : Everything that exists existed before; in the form of energy. Energy can be manipulated, formed, shaped, translated, and made into the physical via the use of other physical/material substances. Electricity for example.... you SEE the spark, but is THAT the electricity? No. IT IS the MANIFESTATION of the POWER of the electricity. Electromagnetic Fields are another. One magnet repels another, yet one cannot SEE that power in the physical / material. Yet EVIDENCE of it exists in the very fact that the magnets repel or attract, depending on the polarity of the POWER.
Another example would be the enrgy / power generated in the light bulb. One can SEE the light, and FEEL the heat.. but can one actually SEE the power CREATING the heat and light? Can one present a Picture or description of it? Can YOU Mr. Knowles?
Stop SHOUTING, and use the bb code for emphasis
But still, you are avoiding the question of the burden of proof.
And what happened to your argument that what you are seeing is the TEMPERATURE?
I am still waiting for you to prove that FSM does not exist.
So you refuse the challenge? Preferring instead to change the subject? Not surprising. When confronted with something that backs one into a corner one usually seeks a distraction through which to extract one's posterior from the fire. Typical of those of the NON god....deception and deciet, play the "shell game". Not this time Mr Knowles. YOU stated that INVISIBLE things do NOT exist. Now I'm HOLDING YOU to it.
PROVE IT! Until you do so, ALL your other OPINIONS are in question and subject to doubt. So Dodge the Question Mr. Knowles. Until you choose to take an action other than the coward's way out, we have nothing to discuss. Its THAT simple. Should you choose to address what I have presented, I will reconsider, but unless that occurs, there is nothing more for us to discuss. End of conversation.
What is the challenge again?
Proving that invisible things do not exist?
Or proving that electricity does not prove god?
EXPLAIN IT AGAIN WITHOUT THE SHOUTING
Oliver! I never even heard about Oliver the humanzee (?) until yesterday. I gotta say, although there isn't anything conclusive about Oliver... there cross breeding is a fact it can happen and has happened.
I was a little disapointed to find out that this is true since on here people kept saying that it is impossible. Yet it is, example, a mule. Oliver is something else! His DNA is not 46 like humans, and it isn't 48 like the chimp...nope, Oliver has 47.
Oliver wanted to mount his human owner not another chimp, he also acted human, didn't need to be trained how to stand upright, how to use the bathroom etc.. like the other chimps. Plus look at his face.
Evolution happens. Cross breeding happens and while the u.s will not tell you it happened, a bovine was successfully cross bread with a human and then the baby was euthenized because they weren't sure what to do with it since it was closer to human than to a cow.
Rarely is DNA 100% positive. It can be negative (this sperm / blood cannot belong to X, or this man cannot be the father of Y) but is never, in my experience 100% positive. It's never expressed that way in any report I've ever read, rather it gives the odds of another person producing the same DNA, ranging from 1 in 10,000, say, to 1 in a billion.
I read an article yesterday that seemed pretty relevant here:
A scientific organisation have officially shunned the whole of Louisiana, home to one of their regular seminars/events because there's the whole "there is no such thing as evolution" schtick being taught in schools.
Good on them, I went to a Roman Catholic school and high school and we got taught evolution, and that was only 10-15 years ago...why the sudden change?
A general increase in fundies across all religions, I fear.
Self protection. The churches are scared and this is one way to fight back. Forcing their doctrine to be taught to children as facts when it is not. Education and reason do not go hand in hand with religion. They rely on indoctrination at a young age.
I am sure you know just how hard it is to let go of pre-conceived notions that are fed into your brain at a young age.
Give me a child before he is 7....
Mr. Loyola was a clever one no question. First job after subduing the locals - build a school.
Exactly, you could tell a kid that the sky is yellow for years but they eventually begin to question it when they grow up and other people tell them otherwise.
That can sort of be described as my way of thinking, at the same time as some pretty crappy times in my earlier years finding out that yours is not the only religion was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Not too bothered, unlike a lot of other things when relgion left my life I didn't exactly miss it.
This is the second religious forum thread I've come across you personally attacking forum members, it's starting to look a bit troll like I'm afraid. LondonGirl was simply pointing out a small inaccuracy, we all need to accept that online forums have a fair bit of snark and attitude in their posts (none more so than a relgious discussion) and not to take stuff like what LondonGirl said to heart.
LOL Mark, you don't seem to be tired of it, you are rather restless
It is the only thing keeping me sane. I spend all day every day watching the property markets collapse and counting how much money the govs are printing in a desperate effort to get them over-inflated again.
Arguing with religious zealots is a break for me
Let it go man...
I am a christian, you are an athiest, I believe in the end I will see and join God, in the end you believe..., Who is right? Let's wait and see. If there is a heaven, I'm in, I have used my time wisely. You, well... were are you going? That's not up to me. But if there isn't a heaven than so be it. I'm still extremely happy with my life. Neither of us truly know. But MY belief is of heaven and our Creator.
I understand what you believe. And honestly - I have no problem with that.
The problem comes from your need to tell me that I should believe it too. Not really sure what you are not getting about that, but I am quite happy to let it go if you will agree not to tell anyone what you think they should be doing in future. Deal?
Again, I was not telling you what to do, my opinion isn't telling you what to do, just what i was thinking. Maybe we should look at the education question again...
LIke YOU telling jgrimes to not be saying you were angry WHEN SHE DIDN'T.....???????
Mark, Mark, Mark... take YOUR own advice. Americans have a word for people like yourself.... and too actually think people regard YOU in such a high manner.
Ever watched ANTZ? Is that where you draw your inspiration for being SO critical of everybody else, EXCEPT YOURSELF???? too funny, you are a funny, funny, man...
Yeh; like you should be... Ah, heck far Mark you never make a mistake, assume or act ignorant or uneducated? Hmmmm...
Haven't heard any apologies out you lately. Nope! Now how is that we are suppose to care what you think or value your opinion; when you can't even be a man and face up to YOUR own mishaps now and then?
I know you don't care... But sometimes you sound like you've got a chip on shoulders? Your father bully you when you were younger? Did he make you cry Marky? Sweetie do share... you share everything else.
Still no apologies for making YOUR mistakes. I'm ready Mark- come on... You're getting to be so typical, its rather easy to predict your reaction and answers.
Was daddy a big meanie to you Marky boy? Oh by the way feel free to report me- I've reported you just now.
Mark, it was nice talking with ya. "Judgment will not be mine"
You just judged me. You told me what I should be doing. Very enlightening talking to you too.
Evilution. How did I ever miss this thread. I like it.
I haven't read back through the thread yet but I bet it's pissing off Mark, the high priest of atheism, peace be upon you, oh salami.
One could say that evolution proves the bible or the other way around. The order in which both sides claim things came into being is real close. More so if one does not try to timeline the bible. It can not for practical reasons be done. If one believes in the bible the best they can do is to take it figuratively. To take it and speak of it in a literal manner only makes one look stupid.
It's amazing at how blind both sides of this arguement can be. I know how it goes, "this is the way I believe or think so thus it is so". That goes for both sides. I recall seeing Mark pointing out that comment on another subject about religion. Wait he does it too. What was it? Give him facts, now,
Then again facts would be nice. Yes even from evolutionist. Cough them up or shut up. All we have with evolution is therory.
All you have is millions of measurable pieces of evidence.
Just because you are too ignorant to understand the word theory and too lazy to look at all the information available, does not make evolution wrong.
I have read your book. How about you read mine?
You assume a lot. You need to wise up a touch before you start in on someone you know nothing about, It's ashame you can't comprehend what you read. No where in my last statement was there anything to lead you to your last comment to or about me. In your own words don't be so ignorant and lazy. You may feel like you are a big shot on here, but you are and mean nothing to me.
If you want to attack me on any posting I give, that's fine, but do yourself and the others on here favor. Learn to read, stop assuming.
By the way Bozo, I'm not christian. Don't you feel real crunchy.
You demonstrate an ignorance and lack of understanding of the word theory, and claim that there are no facts to back up the theory of evolution. How am I attacking you for pointing that out exactly?
Clearly, you have not read or understood the theory of evolution, and you do not appear to know what the word "theory" means in a scientific context.
As to you being a christian, I make no particular distinctions between the various religions. But go ahead and announce your preference and I will see if it is worth making fun of.
You're the one who apparently does not understand ANYTHING. You don't even have the sense enough to see when someone is telling you to live up to the same standards you are spouting off to others about. You tell the christians to give proof to back up their religious "THEORY". Yet you become a total jerk when someone tells you to do the same.
Guess what, They are both theory. One is philisophic the other at least is based on science. Based being the key word here. The christians can't tell you to give die hard proof because all the pieces are not in, thus making it impossible. On the same hand, if you (as you have) demand proof from them on their philisophic theory, You are every bit as wrong as they are.
I don't in reality expect either side to do so. Reason Why. They are "THEORY", Nothing more.
Neither side can cough up the proof to back the way they believe things to be. I do expect people who try to speak with such authority to live to the same standards and up to the same test they expect of others.
If you re-read my postings from the first one I put on here, then if you have the IQ of at least a 12 year old, you will see that.
I have read through much of what you have written in the pages on here. Some of it is quite good. Alot of it is obvious that you expect others to live up to standards which you yourself don't see fit to do.
I take on the best of debaters everyday on every subject you could think of. It's what I do. I'm on here for fun. If you want to debate, that's cool. If you just have a thing to bash those poor christians, I do feel for you.
One thing we may have in common, is the fact that if I so desired to be a pain in the butt, I could rip their beliefs apart. But what's the point? Let them live their life and the rest of us live ours.
Now you have confused me completely.
1. You are saying that there is no proof for evolution.
This is garbage and shows that you have not taken the time to examine the millions of separate proofs and scientific tests that have been done, that rather conclusively prove evolution is an on-going process.
It also means you have not taken the time to read much of what I have written. Try this link as a start - http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/7572
2. You think that evolution is "just a theory," See above link for more information.
3. You think that a philosophical fairy tale is exactly the same as a scientific theory, despite the fact that one is a guide telling you how you should live your life with no proof, and the other is a proven scientific theory that helps to explain our origins.
4. Like the believers, you have an opinion as to what I should be doing. You know where you can stick that.
I am sticking with ignorant and uneducated, but I feel no responsibility to educate you further than I have already tried to. That is your job.
THEORY. You keep using that word. It does not mean what you think it means.
Next i will hear that water quenching your thirst is a theory as well. I have a theory, who gives a rats ass? What rock have you been under? Oh, yeah, the rock of christ. damn.
I sure hope you know what you're doing and saying!
I don't know anything. You can't take my words to heart. I am a lowly imbecile. That is what these religion hubs do for me. the constant bickering back and forth from both sides, day after day after day. Nothing is accomplished, ever. I know I know...dont go to those threads...I enjoy a freak show just like the next guy. At the carnival you know you will be appalled by the two headed baby in a jar, but you still go, you still pay money to see it. Human nature...or "the devil makes me do it". Now, i have "quality" hubbing to do. Rrrrrrright.
Was that a rant? I think it qualifies as a rant! ***gives Pest a standing ovation and wipes a tear and chokes.... **** "Bravo!"
http://www.wyattmuseum.com/how-the-pyra … -built.htm
Some high quality research there. Full of fabricated 'facts' and embellished with a complete lack of evidence and understanding.
1) The number of chromosomes has nothing to do with complexity. The fact that the writer of the article uses 'obvious' and 'logical to assume' does not make it so.
2) The Big Bang is nothing to do with evolution.
3) Not quite sure what the pyramids and Red Sea crossing have to do with evolution.
If you are going to try and fight science with science, at least check things out. All of the references that you gave do not attack evolution - they attack what creationists believe evolution to be. The Strawman cometh.
Cannot be bothered repeating myself, so:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1 … tions.html
I don't see "proof" of evolution.
The pyramids and Red Sea, I just threw them there because they were interesting.
Hi Jesus Saves
No worries. I did actually find the Red Sea stuff very interesting. I love exploring the history behind the Bible, such as reasons for the Plagues of Egypt and the Red Sea crossing. Only a personal opinion, but I like the idea that the Great Flood was when the whole Mediterranean Basin flooded, surely a cataclysmic event for anybody living there at the time. For me, that is an area where science and religion can meet halfway and uncover interesting things!
We will probably have to agree to disagree on the evolution - I believe that it happened and that the earth is billions of years old. As for the Big Bang and abiogenesis , the moment that life was created, that is a different story - neither of those are covered by evolution. There is certainly plenty of room for interesting debate there!
Just as a matter of interest - what would you accept as proof?
Nothing will ever be proof enough...jesus christ himself could show proof of evolution and the proof would still fall on deaf ears.
Well. I thought I would ask. I mean I would take just about anything as proof of his beliefs. Walking on water, burning bushes, voice from the heavens, moving mountains - anything.
My personal preference would be the burning chariot but beggars can't be choosers
I have a "Lays potato chip' (crisp) that looks like the christ on a cross...I had to take several nibbles to get it there...would that be proof enough Mark?
You can't mange the burning chariot? I would really like that.
I could set my truck on fire and take a picture, but that is not a biblical "miracle" or what have you. i think that is called insurance fraud...Close to the bible as a fraud, but not proof.
Insurance fraud/biblical miracles - much the same thing
Waiting for the YouTube link for that - should be worth a laugh.
Apart from that it is the christian american thing to do. The car industry gets to sell a new truck
I heard that with American trucks, they have a habit of catching fire all on their own. Talk about inbuilt redundancy of design.
No - they are not that bad - and everyone wants a Ford F-350 Wide boy
It's what Jesus would have driven
That is a beast
blimey, bet the MPG on that is eye-wateringly low
Liverpool winning the Premier League - that would be a true miracle.
Pretty sure that would make a lot of converts
BDazzler that is.
What does to "feel crunchy" mean? It sounds wonderful.
There is a whole world of Sid James innuendo there, but I am going to be a good boy. :holyangelicsmiley:
. . .and you do it so well, too! (where's the "holyangelicsmiley" when you need one?)
I guess I can't get a beer around here, I'll look somewhere else.
No beer,GT - I do have some Ouzo if you are interested.
if I can't find any beer, i'll be back
No worries, GT - my liver gave up a long time ago
pssst.....I am trying to chat up Teresa, so give me a wee while
Theory- speculation-abstract thought or contemplation
Scientific theory - A well-tested concept that explains a wide range of observations. Look it up and the truth shall set you free.
Did you even go to school?
LOL - Well, I went to one of them, but we had biology classes too.
I am going with homeschooled....... And the dinosaurs were wiped out in the flood and turned into oil in a couple of hundred years by a proven scientific theory known as "rusting."
Bwahahahahahaha! "the theory of science" It is an absurd concept....(theory of rusting, hahahaha!)
I went to a Christian public school as well. On Saturday mornings, after daily chapel, we had double biology.
Schools only only teach what "They" want you to learn. If I tell you i went to a Christian school, you (generic you, perhaps not you personally ... or maybe so ) will immediately minimize my education. If, however, you tell me you went to a public school, I (hypothetically) would simply minimize your education. (Trust me on this, public schools suck in thousands of ways. )
Bottom line is not "are you educated" but "who educated you"? I know you understand this with your atheist activism in your attempts to remove all vestiges of Christianity and all other religious influences from society.
Part of thinking for yourself is not only asking what was said, but who said it. And trust criteria ... well that's another part of thinking for oneself.
I disagree on one key point here. A good school will teach you how to learn.
And I went to a public christian school (amongst others). In England speak, a public school is a private school.
I went to a Christian Public school - daily chapel, matins and evensong on Sundays.
Me (sorta) too -- not Public School, but a grammar school (Methodist College) with daily chapel and/or general assembly with ecumenical clergy and lots of Biology, Chemistry, and Physics plus Comparative Religion, Comparative Literature, and many opportunities to learn to think for myself.
Did you never do the basic science experiment write-up when you were 9 or 10 years old?
Start with "hypothesis", then "aim", "methods", "results" and "conclusion"?
How were the noodly appendages the other night?
Awesome. You get the best veal in France.
Well, US meats is a different story, mostly extremely sad - yet there are some pleasant exceptions like Ruth Chris steakhouse
Scientists say that evolution is a theory like gravity is a theory. It seems that there is some pretty strong supporting evidence.
I think that some people feel that evolution is a challenge to the existence of God, but it is not. Evolution is a challenge to stories told by old Hebrew men and others. The stories say something about the nature of God, but it is not always easy to see what exactly it is they are trying to say.
Eienstien proved that gravity dosn't exisit ... the apparent force CALLED gravity is actually caused by the warping of space. Still, we use it for several reasons:
1. It works (both emperically and mathematically)
3. Most people can't deal with Eienstien's math, but can deal with Newton's.
It's the same thing with so-called "centrifugal force" it acts like a force and it can be measured like a force, but in fact, it is not a true force but is a conservation of angular momentum.
BTW, Tom I actually agree with your primary point .. "The stories say something about the nature of God, but it is not always easy to see what exactly it is they are trying to say."
Just saying that even with strong evidence, science is subject to change and keeps known innacuracies for the sake of tradition and convienence.
Sure it is... one just has to be WILLING to let go of the Idea that he or she is RIGHT.
" gravity is a theory"
Don't mean to seem picky here but I'm guessin' gravity is a fact, otherwise I would be strapped into my chair. What may be theory is what creates gravity.
(Edit: Whoops I'm warped.)
See, that's my point, since most people can't understand what Einstien is saying, they just say "it doesn't matter" because if I'm not strapped in, I fall up.
I am being picky because people throw around terms they really don't or can't understand. Instead, they listen to people who they assume understand.
What we - that is poeple who use gravity on a day to day basis to stay in our chairs, keep water in the cup etc. - mean when we say "gravity" is not the same thing as "the theory of gravity".
The fact is that if I drop something it will fall. By tradition, we call that reason "gravity" ... scientists make a distinction. Most of us don't because we aren't equipped to.
So I assume you can to present that the proofs I gave are but "theories" and not fact?
ALL YOU DO IS SHOUT RUBBISH.
Wat a jouneyman?
Wat a fossile?
Wat a proof?
Electricity is proof of god?
Dude, I'm still praying for you to have water turned into wine ... God says he did, but slowly and it took several years ... But He's glad you like it.
He can be annoying like that sometimes. He hardly ever takes my suggestions about how He could do a better job running the universe!
and the fool rambles on.... proving that he is here only to antagonize. He seeks no honest discussion or understanding but rather the "satisfaction" he gets from presenting his own infallible ego and unquestionable pride, yet he speaks only to himself, his words lost in the endless dribble issuing forth from his lips. Go on fool.....you speak only unto yourself.
Speaking of dribble...........
Hi Jouneyman2, Mark gets pissed right off if you call him a communist. He says he isn't one but being such a zealot to proselytize for his atheist religion you would almost think he was a member of the League of Militant Godless of the former Soviet Union.
I'm not trying to piss him off, just stating facts. He says the invisible things don't exist.....so in following the "logic" of his OPINION.... he doesn't exist.
He refuses to acknowledge that THOUGHT can be EVIDENCED through the results of it being acted upon by one's brain, yet he claims that because it is not VISIBLE it does not exist, according to his way of thinking. So it follows that if each man is the sum of his thoughts which include his memories, ideas, opinions, and identity; Mr. Knowles, by his opinion, DOESN'T exist.
I personally don't see much point in discussing anything with someone who doesn't believe in his own existence. He can present all the smarta** comments he wishes, the fact is that by his own mouth he has ruled out the possibility of his own existence. (Unless of course his thoughts are not his own, but rather supplanted into his mind by something else he refuses to acknowledge....), but that still goes back to his original presentation that invisible things do not exist.
As for Communism, Socialism, dictatorships, etc., they are all governments and philosophies of men to me, none better than the other; all being governments of FORCE. I make no distinctions between any of them.
I did no such thing. The great thing about these forums is that everything stays here for people to read. I have looked through our "discussion," and all I can see is you shouting at me because I cannot prove that your god does not exist.
And you have lost me completely with this new thing about acknowledging that "THOUGHT can be EVIDENCED."
And that this some how means that your invisible god therefore exists.
And that if I do not acknowledge this, that means I do not accept my own existence.
You have called me a fool and told me I ramble yet all you have done is shout and attack me.
As I said - the burden of proof is on you. Not me.
I have all the evidence I need that your invisible magical super being is a FIGMENT of your IMAGINATION. And the only place it is EVIDENCED is in your THOUGHTS.
100% lack of measurable data is good enough for me.
Plus the actions of people like you who do believe in it tend to back that up pretty well.
I am also liking the scientific proof of evolution. Pretty solid factual data that proves we were not "created" or "revitalized," which is a new one on me.Very good
FSM - for those who don't bother to read - is a Flying Spaghetti Monster, The Creator of our Universe
LOL Mark how you don't get bored with all those zealots is beyond me. Have a good hunt
No hunting. They are hunting me - it looks like.......
Patience is a virtue
So what are the laws for immigration into the nation God's government?
This thread gave me an idea for starting a new topic...:
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