I'm just wondering... I've only been on HubPages a few short weeks, but I've noticed from the Forums and the Religious section that it seems like the majority of people on here seem to be anti-Christian. I just recently posted an answer in a forum in which I mentioned the love of God. What I wrote had absolutely nothing in it that was hateful or defensive or in any other way negative. I am an honest person, and I would have scrutinized it and recognized it if there was anything in it that could be taken as such. But there was nothing. Yet it was hidden "due to negative feedback." The gist of my answer was simply that I felt that God loves us and that we are special to Him. How could that possibly incite negative feedback? Why are people on here so vitriolically opposed to God and Christianity? I'm about ready to leave.
Some people are pro-God and some are not. Others don't care either way.
HubPages should be about writing and money in my opinion - not about wasting time on religious or political arguments.
I could spend hours spouting my 'anti' views but it is tiresome and boring. Same goes for the pro lobby - in my opinion.
So personally - I wouldn't bother about it.
Hello and welcome to HubPages. I must say, I do not think that HubPages is anti-Christian, as I see a lot of Christian topics, views, opinions, and discussions expressed openly and freely here. I will tell you though that there are many people that see things differently than you and they will tell you openly here. If you are used to being in and around forums that tend to be of the like minded as you only or at the least of the majority and you are new to HubPages, exposure to the open opinions of others that may not agree with you may seem abrasive to you. We are all different, that is what makes things interesting just keep in mind that it's not personal, people are just responding to what they are reading. I assure you, there are MANY pro-Christian people on HubPages. I wish you the best and hope that you stay, HubPages is a great place for everyone to get their points across and share their views.
Thanks to those of you who have welcomed me and encouraged me to stay. As I said earlier, I actually sort of accidentally posted this anyway. I was just hurt by the negative feedback even though I hadn't written anything that I thought could have been considered negative. Guess I was wrong. Anything goes. I should know this by now. It's just that it's always painful to see how much some people are so opposed to God. Sorry if that sounds in some way self-righteous or "intolerant" or something. But, as an analogy, if your parent, the father you know and love, is being ripped apart by people who don't even know him, you're bound to try to defend him. It's not only your duty, but it's out of a love for him because you know what a great dad he really is, and you hate it when people who don't know anything about him except what they've heard through hearsay try to rip his reputation to shreds. Of course you're going to defend him, right? As his child, you know him intimately and you know he doesn't deserve the kind of treatment that some people give him. It's one thing for people to insult me. I'm likely to think, "maybe it is my fault somehow." But when someone insults my Father, that's a different story. I'm sure someone will have some kind of negative response to that, but that's just how I feel.
Yes, one probably would defend their father, because fathers, unlike gods, actually exist.
I suppose if someone were to state emphatically that Santa Claus wears red because he is in league with Satan, we might jump to his defense as well.
That's not the reason people say Santa is in league with Satan.
They are one and the same; they both wear red, both have same letters in their names, and you never see them in the same place at the same time.
In addition to the reasons you and DPH mentioned, there is also the idea that some people carry that both santa and satan want take the focus away from Christ
I would tend to agree with that, so many beliefs surround the constant good vs. evil battle of the invisible and undetectable, all vying to win the title of the most ineffectual invisible and undetectable entity.
My monies on Jesus, too.
Ah, Troubled Man, you are speaking on the presumption that everyone believes the way you do. For some of us, God DOES exist, and He, in fact, is our Father. He is our Creator who loves us. How much more "fatherly" can you get? But that is what I think. You obviously do not. You are free to believe as you wish.
As for Satan and Santa Claus both wearing red, frankly, I don't know that either of them do :p. Their caricatures, yes, but I'm simply saying that your analogy doesn't make any more sense to me than the point you were trying to make simply because I also believe in Satan and yes, Santa Claus, too (with a qualifier, I must add).
In point of fact, if I were to jump to Santa Claus's defense, it would be closer to the mark to say that I might jump to the defense of St. Nicholas, the bishop and saint from whom the legend of Santa Claus (derived from the Dutch Sinter Klaus, which was originally Sint Niklaus [sp?] ). The modern-day "Santa Claus," as most people (at least most adults) know, was merely a marketing tool of the Coca-Cola Company. But as for St. Nick, God, and Satan as well, to me, they all exist. To you, they don't. 'Nough said.
P.S. I see your username is "A Troubled Man." At the risk of sounding like I'm proselytizing, maybe there's Someone who could fix that.
No, I'm not, because I don't hold any beliefs. Wrong from the get go, well done.
No, that's just an irrational belief some of you hold. If God existed, we would all know it.
Tell that to the tens of thousands of children who starve to death each day praying to your loving Creator for a morsel of food.
Fathers often feed their children.
I don't hold beliefs because beliefs are often wrong when held up to reality.
Ah, a history buff, good. Then, you'll know that Christianity is merely a religion ripped off from earlier religions that are almost identical. So much for any of them existing.
P.S. I see your username is "cherihut, but I won't focus on your username because that would a personal attack.
I will only say that NO ONE is free from beliefs of some kind. It's impossible. You act as if the word "belief" is synonymous with "fantasy." Yet everyone "believes" in something. "Belief" means "confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof." Do you believe in the love of your parents? Or in any kind of love at all? It's not something you can see or prove, yet most people believe in love of some kind. Do you believe in happiness? There's no proof of its "existence." You only know it by the way you feel. Well, in a spiritual way, I can "feel" God's existence in my soul or my spirit (there's no proof of that, either.) You believe in your unbelief, if that makes any sense. But my point is, not everything that's "real" can be proven in a specifically scientific way.
As for the subject of suffering (starvation, etc.) it's a rather involved subject and there are no easy answers. But let me ask you... has your "unbelief" alleviated any suffering? There's still suffering in life, no matter how you account for it - or don't. It's there, so I accept it. And I choose to believe that there is a God who is there to help us work through it rather than believe that it's something I have to go through all alone and with no purpose. Suffering is hard enough, but the idea that it has no purpose or won't end or won't bear some kind of good fruit is unbearable. How do you deal with that? I can't. I prefer to think that suffering has something to do with love. Think of it. Love requires sacrifice in some way, shape or form, does it not? Parents suffer and sacrifice for their children, for example. And if Jesus could suffer and sacrifice His very life for love of us, who am I to complain about the sufferings I must endure? That's not to say I don't complain sometimes! I'm human. But I have little right to do so.
Anyway, I don't get you agnostic/atheist types. Why are you SO defensive and - what's the word? - oppositional, when it comes to anything to do with God? I have to wonder about that. But, I'm sure you don't get us "religionists," either. C'est la vie.
I am curious as to what you could say about my username. It's part of my actual name. I guess I'm too naive or something to see anything in it that could prompt a personal attack. Hm. Oh well. Probably better if I don't know.
Yes, I understand believers operate from belief systems, but that is not how the rest of us operate, which is from a position of understanding, not belief.
You are wrong, those are physical characteristics and properties that exist and can be measured.
All feelings are of a material nature, they exist and can be identified.
Exactly, none whatsoever.
Sorry, it makes no sense at all.
Yes, anything physical can be subject to science.
The answers lie in prayer, don't they? Isn't that the way believers do things, they pray for them? Lost car keys? Getting out of traffic jams? Etc.
If there is a God, then He is not helping at all. He is merely watching them die every day. He is a sadistic God because He has the power to do something, but instead, does nothing.
I would agree, the only love we ever see from believers causes suffering.
Ah, so you are not attempting to justify the suffering of starving children as a sacrifice to love. That would be a funny joke if it was funny.
Do you have a point?
That's because we use our brains to think instead of using it to accept pure nonsense without question.
Yes, I'm sure you'll never get it, many believers here never get it, either.
I don't focus on peoples usernames, I focus on their posts content.
You really are A Troubled Man . I'm not going to argue with you because we are on two different planes that will never meet. Think what you want, and I will do the same.
I have a request, though. If there is ever an occasion where you might respond again to anything I say, would you please reference what words or section that you're referring to from my post when you comment on it? It makes no sense when your answers stand alone. I have to go back through my post and guess at what you're referring to. It makes it hard to understand what you're trying to say.
Your personal insults are becoming tiresome. Is that what Christianity teaches you to do, insult others?
No, you're living in a fantasy, that is the difference.
I have been quoting every word you said. It is the format of Hubpages forums that is the problem.
Sometimes the trouble with writing is that, even with emoticons, people don't always get the sense of the writer. If you knew me in person, you would realize I am nothing like what you seem to think of me. I had no intention of insulting you in the above post. I just thought your username was interesting and I was using it jokingly, but you wouldn't understand that because you don't know me... you can't see my expressions or hear my voice or read my body language. Believe it or not, I was actually trying to lighten the mood, but it obviously didn't come across. I apologize. I'm not perfect.
That being said, you have been insulting me all along, and I tire of YOUR insults. I'm tired of trying to explain myself when you and others like you take every little word I say and twist them all out of proportion. I mean... wow. I'm shakin' the dust off my feet here...
No, you used my username to insult me, that is obvious, and you know it.
I accept your apology, please try to focus on the subject matter in the posts rather than the person, themselves.
That is a lie, I never said anything personal about you. I have been focusing on your posts, not you.
Of course, if you tell a lie, you will be called out on it.
Cherihut, welcome to HubPages -- I wish you all the best in your journey.
I would not label HubPages and most of the community here as anti-Christian just because there are some people of a different belief or faith. I see HubPages as a well-rounded group of people that represent many cultures and many beliefs/religions. It is a world wide community.
Also, fair warning here, there are a few people who have joined HubPages not to write articles, but to join the forums and spew their anger and negativity to all they do not agree with. People like this only want to be in the forums to debate and criticize -- any time given to them is pointless, for they will disagree with whatever you say. There is one in particular who has been a member for over two years and has not written one hub, but joins every forum just to be a pain in the ... and stir up ....
I do hope you stay with HubPages, continue to have faith in yourself, and stand strong in your own beliefs.
Again, welcome and best wishes.
Phyllis, thank you for your warm welcome and kind words.
Notice that the "loving" Christian will spew hatred and anger and then tell everyone else they are the victims of hatred and anger. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Unsurprisingly, I have gotten a bit of flack on this thread. I can't answer everyone all at once, and several of you are starting to gang up on me. (proving my point, btw ). But hey, you're entitled to your opinions. Still, there are those of you who are proving me correct in thinking there is a lot of "anti"-Christianity here (depending on the definition.. for me, "anti" means against, and I don't care what you say, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that many people here - yes, even on this particular thread - are against Christians).
All I've tried to do here is to try to defend my faith to some who obviously opposed it. I'm not going to apologize for trying to defend myself or my beliefs. I got the impression that some seemed to think that Christians shove their faith down others' throats. I tried to honestly explain why it may appear that way. I've tried to come at it from an honest point of view. I have not tried to make myself or any other Christian out to be any better than anyone else. I never tried to put anyone down here for what they believe - or don't believe. I honestly do not know what I have said that makes anyone here (with one possible exception towards someone who really got on my nerves in his derision of my beliefs) think that I was putting anyone down (as one or two have implied). I don't like being put down myself, and I really do try not to do that to others. I don't generally call people names like, "stupid, ignorant, delusional, insane" and the list goes on. However, I have had people say those things to me - if not here, then on other posts - just because I admitted to being a Christian. Frankly, I don't deserve it.
Whatever my beliefs are, they are based on reason. I have studied them and come to conclusions, not based on "blind" faith, but because of faith AND reason. I question things. I don't just accept things on a whim or because someone said so. I study them. I'm really kind of sick and tired of people who think I'm a stupid ignoramus just because I'm a Christian. I went to college. I have a degree. I'm not totally ignorant. Of course there are things that I don't understand, and I'm not perfect, neither in being knowledgeable about everything nor even in my character. But at least I can admit it, unlike some people who strike me as know-it-alls who seem to think that the world revolves around what they consider to be their superior knowledge. This is from my standpoint, of course.
All that being said, as I mentioned, several of you are ganging up on me, and I can’t respond to you all. I may or may not write again on this thread, but please don't feel insulted if I don't respond to certain posts. If I don't, it's not because you "got me" or because I’m giving you the cold shoulder, but rather because I may simply feel that we are at an impasse and it’s pointless to go on. I thank all of you who have spoken respectfully, whether you are a believe or not. I appreciate it.
No one is proving your point about HubPages being anti Christian. That is/was YOUR observation, not a fact. Are you suggesting that because you are a Christian you are holier than thou and should not be disagreed with? Are you suggesting that because you are a Christian your word is final simply because you fit the majority, and because you fit into the majority the rest of us should just fall silent because majority rules? One could get that impression from some of your statements. Perhaps people that are disagreeing with you are NOT disagreeing with Christians at all, maybe they are just disagreeing with the statements that you were making. That is allowed. That is OK. No one has ganged up on you, several have simply voiced their disagreement with something that you said. That's it. It's not personal. If you seek to have a victim mentality, in that people are picking on you, etc., then you will (in your mind) be a victim but in that, that would of course be your view of the situation, not a fact. This is the very thread that YOU started. You have every right to do so, but keep in mind, everyone is not you and do not necessarily share your opinions. If you cannot take people disagreeing with you then why start a thread asking a question that you know/suspect might/ will cause debate? It is your right to do so but if you did it to find complete and total fellowship with likeminded people only, that is just unrealistic. That could be misconstrued or misunderstood to some. No one is attacking your beliefs. I, among others, never called you a single name or was in any way disrespectful to you. If there has been one that has, please do not group us all together and focus that frustration on those that simply just disagreed with your views. I remember welcoming you to HubPages at the start of this very thread, how very anti-Christian of me, huh?
Where exactly do you think that you have the right to express your opinions beliefs and actually put yourself above other people who disagree but no one else has the right to disagree with you?
This is one of the problems that I have with Christianity, specifically - and NO I'm not anti-Christian. Christianity teaches you that you can expect to be persecuted - so every time that someone disagrees, laughs, debates or discusses things in a way that you don't like, you get to cry persecution - and BE HAPPY ABOUT IT because Jesus told you to expect it.
Here's the thing though - I've seen the way you confront people in the Q&A section. You're aggressive, and you jump into conversations willingly with people that you can EASILY tell disagree with you. But the second someone says something snarky or sarcastic, you get offended and you talk about how people are anti-christian and christians are being harassed. NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.
You have the right to free speech, but here's the kicker - so does everyone else. If you don't like it, don't start topics that intentionally invite debate. Don't get offended when people disagree with you. If you're looking for a pat on the back and a healthy "attaboy" from likeminded people, then hubpages can provide that for you - but it's not all you're going to get. Other Christians can agree ith you and validate you and make you feel warm and fuzzy inside - but atheists can comment to, and if you're going to be a part of this community, you need to grow a thicker skin, suck it up and deal with it. I have to deal with Christians telling me that I'm going to hell, that I'm evil, that I'm a sinner, that god doesn't love me and that I'm an abomination (because I happen to be gay as well) I don't whine and complain that they're anti-gay. Some of your comments could be seen as anti-atheists - is that what you consider yourself to be? Are you also anti-muslim, anti-thor, anti-easter bunny, etc? Does disagreeing with something automatically make someone anti-something? Or do they just have their own opinion - and the right to express said opinion at any point - as long as they abide by the rules of the site?
since you asked so nicely.
Hey Deepes - since you're a Christian and also one of my closest friends that I've met on Hubpages - do you think I'm anti-Christian?
Anti- Christian? Honestly? Yep you are anti-Christian, but it has little to do with the belief itself. Some people are just pieces of work. Just like the fact that I'm one of your best friends has nothing to do with my belief.. I think my belief is secondary to my charm and my cute smile .. But seriously, you and I became friends because we took the time to learn each other and gain enough of understanding to where we can approach each other in a respectful manner.
But on a more serious note, you do have several issues with Christianity as with other religions. I do think you are open minded enough to at least hear someone out until you decide that their demeanor no longer deserve your open mindedness
Let's try to get this right.
To be "anti-Christian" would mean that we are against the person, the "Christian"... that is false.
The correct answer is "anti-Christianity" which removes the person altogether and focuses entirely on the ideology.
Sorry, I think you missed my point totally (or maybe just chose to take only part of my statement for your use instead of focusing on what I was actually saying). I didn't mean "anti-Christian" as against the believer because they are Christian. I was actually saying that there are some people that she simply does not like. Their beliefs have nothing to do with that. I know good and well where JM, you, Rad, and others stand regarding the beliefs, not the person and you know I am aware of that.
I'm agressive? I won't say more. It's not worth it.
The way I've seen you interact with non believers in the answer section appears aggressive to some, yes.
Out of everything I said, that's all you picked up on? Seriously?
Basically, you admitted defeat and shut down potential future conversation because you clearly can't defend your assertion that disagreement equals anti-whatever. Good to see.
Gee, thanks, Mystic, you were one of the ones I was thanking for being respectful. I don't understand why you took this personally. It wasn't necessarily meant for you.
"Unsurprisingly, I have gotten a bit of flack on this thread. I can't answer everyone all at once, and several of you are starting to gang up on me. big_smile (proving my point, btw wink ). But hey, you're entitled to your opinions. Still, there are those of you who are proving me correct in thinking there is a lot of "anti"-Christianity here (depending on the definition.. for me, "anti" means against, and I don't care what you say, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that many people here - yes, even on this particular thread - are against Christians)."
Your words there, it wasn't necessarily not meant for me either and I suspect that was exactly what you were trying to accomplish, trying to skirt saying specific names. I got it, as did others, I'd imagine.
Of course I was trying to skirt saying specific names! Would you rather I be rude and mention people by name?
Are you going to sit there and tell me that there aren't people on here who are anti-Christian? You think I don't know the difference between "non" and "anti"? (though of course, if they are "anti" they are also "non"... who ever heard of an anti-Christian Christian?) But my point is, I can see there are those (NOT everyone, geez!) who are violently against Christianity here (in their hearts if not physically), even if you can't because, as I told someone earlier, I live it. I am a Christian, so anti-Christianity is much more easily seen by me, as much as anti-Semitism is more easily seen by a Jew or anti-homosexuality is more easily seen by a gay person or racism is more easily seen by a racial victim. This is simply human nature.
As I said before, I was merely making an observation from where I sit as a Christian. I wasn't calling anyone names or cutting anyone down. And if I was hurt and "thin-skinned" then what does it say about a people who would wish that I was thick-skinned just so they can continue to attack people and be mean to them? So if a person becomes thick-skinned, does that rationalize the rudeness of those who spew vitriol all over the screen?
I could understand your defensiveness if you were being attacked by me. I wasn't attacking anyone - not that I know of - and if I did, then I profusely apologize. If I was attacking anything, it was an attitude, not a specific person. My observations were honest, and I was only trying to defend that which I believe in. That's it. End of story.
That is a lie, YOU are the one tossing out personal insults.
That is another lie, no one here is against "Christians", they are criticizing "Christianity" - try to be honest for a change.
Show us one post here in which someone called you a name and we will all stand beside you defending your rights not be called names.
The problem is whether or not you will stop tossing out personal insults.
Then, you wouldn't be a Christian if you actually questioned and studied, hence you do accept things on blind faith.
If understanding reality is "superior knowledge" then it would appear you haven't studied anything.
No one is ganging up on you, so you can drop that lie.
Could you please explain to me how your beliefs are based upon reason? And to say that you used "faith and reason" sounds kind of suspect to me. Are you trying to trick us?
Yes, question things...but some people are just too afraid to ask the RIGHT questions, so they accept things just because someone says so....while pretending to be asking "questions"
I think you have created a straw man fallacy here. Your credentials have not been called into question...or did I miss something.
Yet you assert that you have a relationship with the all-knowing Creator of the universe. He should have taught you much more than what has been displayed here. Sounds like your God doesn't know much of anything.
You assert that you know the creator of the universe. Atheist admit that they don't. So who is really the know-it-all?
That would be Christians, Muslims, etc.
In other words, you have absolutely no evidence to back up your outlandish assertions, and you rigidly refuse to accept abject defeat. Essentially, it is because we "got you"
I've been around HubPages for some time now, and so far, I've not detected any real anti-anything sentiment. A good number of people in these forums may appear to be anti-Christian, but in reality, they simply don't like being preached at. Unfortunately, whether it's intentional or not, many of us who are Christians have a tendency to speak to everyone as though we are encouraging or edifying our already Christian brothers and sisters. While that is a respectable thing, others who are not believers don't see it that way. In fact, they are often offended by the assumptions others make in addressing them that way.
My feeling is that if you approach others on HP as individuals, and attempt to leave religion alone, you'll find that respectful conversation will flow quite naturally.
A perfect example, unfortunately, of what this thread is all about. I have tried to report that thread, yet it continues, and people there are twisting things around to continue to make the point of this OP. Incredible. It seems almost undeniable, and yet I am hopefully, not naively, holding out hope for the Staff of HP if not the moderators. Which if they do nothing, makes this young ladies point, without her ever having had to make it.
If this were only about the actual facts..... If only about reason, logic, truth, fairness. We wouldn't see what we see, and not see people defending it like its tit for tat... it so is not. There is strong delusion.
You are not alone, not by a long shot. I am sorry that was your experience. Mine hasn't been so different really, and I know of several others that probably could tell you you a story or two. Its not easy. You need to remember this small segment of "society" if it can even be called that, isn't representative of the whole world, thank God. It is easy for people to say just any ole thing here, even light outright about others and whole groups of people that they really just believe a little bit differently from.
Their negativity towards you to the point of reporting it even like that, is meant to show a greater truth I think. It isn't you. It isn't your beliefs, and it isn't anything you could have possibly done. This is an issue with the people doing the negative feedback to HP. They so often aren't willing to look inward to what is really upsetting them, and don't want to ask themselves why they find such a problem with YOUR belief in YOUR loving God, to the point you express it in simple faith in a place like this. It SHOULD be allowed, and you SHOULD feel safe to express such on a writing site that is supposedly open to views of all kinds!
I only wish I had seen this post sooner, but I wanted you to know you are not alone, and I WISH you wouldn't leave, or maybe even come back if you have. You may get a notice that your thread got some response, and I hope to encourage you to not give up because of some mean people and a site that seems to support them at times. I am hoping to help get people to wake up to this also, and we all need to speak up against it. If it really is an anti christian hate site, and/or it operates like it does (people have been talking about this...), then it may as well be out in the open. I am hoping to help change things as they are in that regard with the little bit I have at my disposal.
To answer your last question, I think your beliefs hold the answer, if none of the other one's do answer it. I think the God whose love you were speaking about, also loves you and knew things would be hard for his followers. I like to try and point these things out to those that might yet believe, as nothing else explains what we see quite like the message of Jesus himself, imo.
Wishing you the best, hope you see this!
Very wisely stated with love and an open heart. I had to stop following all religious threads because of the people who make it so negative and do not have an open mind to the fact that each individual has a right to have their own belief system and way of life. Thank you oceansnsunsets for sharing your wisdom.
Hello Phyllis, and thank you so much for your kind words. I don't blame you for not following religious threads here, and can totally understand that.
This young lady seems too have had some negative feedback and wanted to leave or has left, and my heart went out to her because I totally get that. Having your content or voice stifled for sharing what she did, I think is not fair.
Even with very different views, as humans in a world where we have to live together, we can do much better than that. It doesn't cost us anything to be kind to people, and short of being terrorized, can respect the other people's views. I like to encourage that in others, and you seem to be so fair and nice yourself, and I appreciate that. Thank you again.
I've felt the same way many times over the last 6 years. In fact I removed over 200 hubs, partly because of it.
Oh yeah, I remember that now and couldn't believe you were moving them!
I joined this site over 6 years ago. When I look back, things seem so innocent compared.
I guess we were innocent and naive. Along with being accosted by an anti-christian forum thread that compares Christians, because of their beliefs, as a ruthless terrorist organization, we also had to accept that related ad search business, implemented after the fact, by Hubpages.
There is currently a thread on Hubpages forums that has been reported to no avail, where they compare Christians, based purely on their beliefs, as being comparable to a ruthless terrorist organization.
How is that any worse than the one saying Jews are the real group responsible for the holocaust, the one saying atheists support Islamist terrorists, the one saying gay people have demons in them etc etc etc.
The forums can be very hostile but to say they specifically target Christians is to endorse all the other attacks as being somehow less bad or even true or justified because they are being made by Christians?
Only in a fantasy world does pointing out a thread that compares Christians, based purely on their beliefs, as being comparable to a ruthless terrorist organization is an endorsement of other alleged attacks. Two wrongs don't make it right, nor does a bizarre, bogus, extrapolated, conclusion make it true.
Jumpin in here. The OP in this thread, is asking the question, and its a very fair one. I haven't seen other threads comparing any of the groups you mention to ISIS and Jihadi Merchants, asking if they would hesitate to kill, and other atheists saying they would not.. As I have stated in other thread, I would feel equally as strong if the charge was leveled against any other group. I would equally report it. I hope you, if you saw an equally appalling thread would report that, and I hope you stand up for all groups fairly.
There is a mentality observed, and it is being seen for all to see, that is trying particularly with this group. You there, attempt to turn it back around, using a tactic I have seen many times on HP by a particular group especially. It is in essence, something akin to this, "if you haven't spoken out or done something against these other items mentioned like with the atheists or homosexuals or Jews, then you are endorsing the same...." You used the actual words, "is to endorse" all the other attacks. This is another smear is all. It makes the OP's point, again. She wanted to leave and probably did, many others have, many are considering.
What you have said, is just a not so clever way of saying, don't speak up about some hate speech, because you are by my definition, you are now worse. It doesn't fly, and its a tactic and illogical. A not so clever spin, that is revealed for what it is.
Even though there was basically an admission it was wrong, by comparing it to other alleged attacks and then used as a poorly crafted appeal to hypocrisy, based upon things unsaid, I would not hold my breath, that they reported the thread. Its just a game.
I have seen them, and equally horrific comparisons made in far more literal terms. i.e. gay people not just sharing traits with demons but actually being them. Jews actually being the cause of the holocaust. if that does not seem as bad, perhaps you are not being objective.
We have a bias to notice the insult aimed at our in group and disregard the insults aimed at our out groups/others. If you remove that bias I am quite sure insults are being hurled in pretty much all directions and those aimed at Islam and Judaism strike me as being less frequent but much more horrible than those aimed at Christians or atheists.
The fact you see me as being anti-Christian just for sincerely saying I see insults against all groups occurring with Christianity not being uniquely targeted -- well, that makes my point for me. I do not believe and have never said that there is anything at all wrong with being Christian, taken objectively it seems to be a generally beneficial, prosocial world view for those that happen to have it. You are seeing a bias in me that simply is not there. Maybe you are doing the same thing to the forum as a whole?
The religion and political forums are an excitable bunch.
Many of us just avoid those particular forums altogether. The rest of the site is perfectly sociable and friendly .
I am on the same forums and I see it pretty much 5% religious, 5% not, and 90% don't really care.
Maybe you are used to being in a purely Christian-affirming climate. This is the big bad open internet.
Sorry, guys. I'm still kind of new to HubPages. To be honest, I was just reacting because I just saw it, and I started writing. I assume you know how writers are... writing things out helps put things in perspective and provides a venting outlet. I accidentally hit the submit button, I guess. I was considering deleting the question, and thought I was hitting a preview button. Not sure how to delete... probably too late now... but btw, thanks for the responses.
Write about whatever topic makes you feel good or are knowledgeable. Do not pay attention to negative comments but keep in mind that just as you are free to share your views others are free to share theirs.
Welcome to HubPages and write your heart out for the love of writing!
This is America. We all are free to express our views about whatever. Do not assume that people are anti Christian because they do not accept your personal views of religion. The old saying is "do not discuss sex, religion or politics" is a smart one because when you get involved in those topics, you get responses, some of which you will not like. Write what you like, but be aware that not everybody feels as you do...which, as I see it, is a good thing. If we were all the same, life would be boring! Good luck on HP.
i am sorry to hear that you are having some bad experience on this religion issue. Just don't bother about those people who spout nonsense. Maybe they believe in their own religion and couldn't accept others. I am a christian, I write hubs about prayer and how to spend on Good Friday. These hubs are free for people to judge. Just delete and mark spam those bad remarks. Don't let those tiny negative remarks make you leave . I would love to hear your opinion.
Since before the birth of Christ people have hated and rejected God. This hatred and rejection has transcended down thorough the years. If we look at the human historical records pretty much most of this hatred comes from the idea that there are those who simply hate the idea that they will be held accountable..
This blind belief that if anyone disagrees with a Christian then they are automatically anti Christ is one of the reasons for the vitriol. The conservative Christian attempt to suppress dialogue by calling it hatred is hatred. And, if anything you say is true, you will be held accountable.
I believe if you will go to the postings by anti-Christians it doesn't appear at least from where I'm sitting that they are simply presenting a matter of disagreement but moreover that language appears to be that the Christian is delusional and they being a worldly person knows better. Now to some Christians it is odd that they would take such a position since the Christian is merely living the life they have chose to live and allowing the non-Christian to live the life they want to live.
There are those that have a differing opinion from Christians on here and then there are those who go a bit further in expressing their "views" on Christianity that may be interpreted as less than kind. As a new comer to HubPages and the forums, perhaps it is difficult to distinguish between the two?
Well, I do think there are a lot of posts here that could be viewed as unkind. I do think, sometimes, we all forget that simply because we don't take into account how our words affect others. And, it is important to remember that many times a post to you is addressing more than your comment. It addresses their interpretation of the Bible and their understanding of a deity more than it does yours. Plus, it usually addresses points made in previous conversations with other Hubbers. There are certainly those here whose only mission is to belittle. But, less than courteous comments come from both sides of the fence and, often times, from those of us sitting on the fence. Passions run high when discussing belief.
True, Emile... and I think it's astute of you to recognize that often, as you say, "it usually addresses points made in previous conversations with other Hubbers." I think a lot of times we get into discussions within other topics, but there's not a lot of room for comments, so we write our own question to address the topic further.
I'm going to be completely honest here... I think a lot of times we all just want to be heard, and perhaps even to be validated a little... to know that our opinion has some kind of worth, to feel that maybe we have something to share, some good to offer to the world (even if it's only a small portion of it). And when what we have taken the time and trouble to say is struck down and we are called delusional, stupid, ignorant, self-righteous, judgmental, bigoted or whatever other nasty names people throw at us when they apparently don't get us at all, well... it can really put us on the defensive. Just human nature, I suppose.
Anyway, I appreciate your comments.
Why not just keep your beliefs to yourself and no one will bother you. Keep "sharing" your religion and you will do nothing but cause conflict.
Troubled, let me turn this back on you. Why not keep your "reality" to yourself and no one will bother you. Look, nobody's forcing you to read this stuff. If you are, then I can only assume you must have some kind of an interest in it. If you don't like what I have to say, just stop reading it, OK?
You obviously don't understand the issue, I would never have to say a word if not for believers who wish to tell us their religious fantasies are part of reality.
If I don't like what you say, I will respond, that is the point of these forums. Or, didn't you know that?
Perhaps, you assume these are your personal forums in which you can say whatever you want and others will just shut up?
As an unbeliever, I wouldn't vote down an answer on a question if the person simply said God loves us all, let's sing kumbaya.
But when you post in any public forum, there are going to be people who disagree with you, sometimes very passionately. I don't get offended when Christians vehemently argue against evolution, or say atheism is an unjustified position.
I know they truly believe those things. I just happen to disagree on the truth of the matters.
But whatever you believe, regardless of whether I agree with you, I can respect you more if you are honest about it. Christians who believe in hell and tell me I am going there are actually just trying to save me from what they see as my almost inevitable eternal damnation.
It's best to try to stick to arguments for positions. I've been voted down on questions before on answers I perceived to be neutral, or only slightly in favor of a position. I understand the annoyance, but people are people!
Sooner, you are right. People are people. And I know there a lot of "unbelievers" - I guess it's just that where I live and the sites and places I usually go, most people are at least respectful of Christianity. Most who don't believe just don't say anything. I have been on sites in the past where there was a lot of "unbelief", but it's been awhile since I've seen so much unbelief all in one place - and it seems to have increased. Not trying to sound judgmental or anything, but BECAUSE of my beliefs, the unbelief is a cause for concern, you understand.
I don't believe anyone should be mean to anyone. There are atheists on here who can be mean. I've become carried way before in arguments.
Just know that there is a wide swath of people here, and that you don't have to respond to everyone who replies to you. Just engage in dialogue, state what you believe as clearly as possible, and explain why you believe the way you do.
Sooner, explaining why I believe the way I do would take a book - even more than the ones I tend to write in these questions and forums. In fact, there have been scores of books written on the subject. My faith is something that can't be explained in one or two paragraphs. It's a lot more involved than that. Some people believe in having a "simple" faith. Well... I personally think that faith is anything but simple. It's darned difficult, and not easily explained (at least, not without sounding like a simpleton). "'Cause Jesus said so" doesn't quite cut it when people are seriously looking for answers.
It's interesting. I have had the opposite experience, feeling that this site is heavily Christian! But, as you suggested, it's all relative. I live somewhere where there are a broad range of religious beliefs, with lots of acceptance (including acceptance and respect for atheists, agnostics, etc.). At the same time, religion does not seem to be a driving force in daily life, as it is in other parts of the country.
Laura, it is possibly because of my beliefs that I tend to follow hubs/questions that have to do with religious topics. I should know better, eh? I've always known that politics and religion are topics that are to be avoided if one wants to avoid conflict. But I just can't seem to help myself.
Seriously, though, I am alarmed at how widespread anti-Christianity has become - especially among the younger set. I could go on, but I'll refrain in the interest of keeping the peace. Don't want to start a holy (or unholy) war - for now.
As an atheist Jew who grew up in Texas, I can tell you that *some* Christians can be very judgmental and unaccepting of other people's religions and beliefs. Imagine for a minute being told repeatedly as a small child that you were going to burn in hell because your religion was "different." Also imagine having to say "actually, I'm jewish" every two second between Halloween and New Years. Christian beliefs have long driven much in our culture and politics, and I think there now simply a challenging of this Christian domination in our country (which can be exclusive of other viewpoints). I can see that being tough to swallow for a group that has been little questioned throughout our history.
"Little questioned throughout our history"... are you kidding? Christians have been persecuted since Day 1. Of course, as a Jew (albeit an atheist one??? - I'm guessing you're a Jew by tradition rather than by belief?), you might understand religious persecution even better than I do.
But here's the thing. Christians don't have a corner on being judgmental. Perhaps it is simply that we are expected to rise above that because our very religion teaches us that being judgmental is not a good thing (some people twist the interpretation of "judgmental" all out of proportion, though). Personally - and I apologize if this statement itself seems judgmental, but it's just how I see it - I have to wonder if those who aren't Christians (who are often VERY judgmental) use the fact that they don't have that precept of non-judgmentalism as a rationalization for their somehow being allowed to be judgmental, as if they're allowed to be but Christians aren't... (that may not make sense to anyone but me, but I know what I mean ).
Anyway, as the Christian Bible says, "We are all sinners, and all fall short of the glory of God." In short, nobody's perfect. That's not to condone anyone's wrongful actions, but rather to say that no one - neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gentile, nor pagan... whatever - no one is going to get it right all the time, so for anyone to imply that Christians have a corner on being judgmental is really not fair. Just sayin'...
throughout history, Christianity has most often been the "persecutors" and not the ones being persecuted - aside from their origins when they were viewed as little more than a small, inconsequential Jewish sub-sect, and were tried and persecuted as such by the ruling power of Rome. Then, one day, an Emperor declares Christianity as the state religion. Ever since that point, Christianity didn't learn from their bloody and persecuted past - and they switched things around and started murdering others who disagreed with them. The Bible is one of the bloodiest books in History, and it has been used to justify murder, execution, torture and more for several thousand years. And Christianity (under the guise of the "religious right" or the "moral majority") is still persecuting those that disagree with their platform today. They don't kill people anymore - at least in this country - but they do pass laws to restrict the rights of people who disagree. America is NOT a Christian country, nor was it ever founded to be one. The treaty of Tripoli blatantly states it.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
No, in short, we are compassionate and altruistic by nature. Perfection, whatever that is, has nothing to do with the reality in which we live, it is essentially an irrelevant concept and one that is highly subjective.
The Christian Bible debases humans by labeling them as sinners, hence those who follow that belief do little more than live up to it the best they can.
You keep using this argument. I think you might want to rethink it. We are not altruistic, by nature. Not without a little help from our friends.
Socially learned behavior and belief are much better candidates than genetics to explain the self-sacrificing behavior we see among strangers in societies
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 230456.htm
Here ya go, this may help ease your confusion...
Actually, I was referring to American history (not all of time), throughout which Christianity has been dominant.
Yes, being judgmental has no religious boundaries. The problem comes when the dominant religion (or outspoken/powerful members of that religious group) believes that their beliefs (and culture) are "better" than others and should become the religion of all. It happens in obvious and more subtle ways.
Laura, I started to write a response, but it turned out to be so long that I decided I might just use it as part of a hub - eventually, 'cause it's a developing line of thought. But I will leave you with a hint of my thought process, which is to say that Truth is Truth. And Truth is not always - maybe it's even rarely - popular. There can only be one Truth, for Truth cannot contradict itself. If you guess where my thoughts are going with this, and if you think me arrogant, I can only beg you to please understand that it is the admission of a very honest opinion based on reason (though some will laugh at that; but they simply do not understand). At any rate, honesty is all I can lay claim to at the moment.
I will try to expound just a little bit for the sake of at least some semblance of understanding. Let's say Joe Schmoe of Any Belief (or Unbelief) System thinks his system's way is the true way. Naturally. If he didn't, he wouldn't be in that system, now, would he? So can he really be blamed for proclaiming that which he believes to be true? In his mind, he is merely trying to help others to gain that truth and make their lives more meaningful because... Truth demands to be proclaimed, especially when it is called into question or it is opposed. I believe this is a universal... well, truth.
Anyway, problem is... everyone is a Joe Schmoe in his own right. And though there is only one Truth, everyone thinks that their way is that one Truth, and yet they all contradict each other, which causes strife and discord.
There is a reason for this problem (in a word, pride), but there are no easy answers to this problem. That's where I'm at with this at the moment.
Yes, and you've explained the problem. I'm not going to convince you about what "the truth" is or that there are many truths. You have every right to your beliefs, as do I, and as does every individual.
I'm sure others have said this, but I would challenge the notion that there is "anti-Christian" sentiment out there. Christianity is extremely diverse - there are Christians from all walks of life, with many different belief and value systems and levels of observance. I think the "anti" sentiment is to the "Christianity" that has become politicized and seeks to use Christianity (and "one truth") as a basis for our political system. This is not a Christian nation and efforts to make it so are misguided and will be met with resistance.
Laura, believe me! There is anti-Christian sentiment everywhere in this country. You don't see it because you don't live it. For you to say this is the same as if I would say that anti-Semitism doesn't exist. Yet you know it does because you've been a victim of it. I have been a victim of anti-Christianity (mostly anti-Catholicism which, trust me! is real and present). And it is not simply relegated to the political sphere, but is present in my own community. It has hit me personally on occasion.
Also, while I agree with your statement that "this is not a Christian nation," I would add the word "anymore." In fact, this nation was built upon Judeo-Christian principles. That is a historical fact. That is not to say that people are not free to believe as they wish (though that is becoming more and more questionable), but to deny that this country was ever a Christian one is to be in denial of our nation's history.
The constitution is a secular document, with a clear distinction between church and state. Yes, the founders were Christian, but they understood that a religious state would be detrimental to all, including Christians. While the majority of people in our country were and are Christian, that does not make it a Christian country. It is not now, and never was.
Some were Christians. A large majority were deists. I point again to the treaty of Tripoli.
" As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Wikipedia actually has a good article about that. Knowing that some were not what most modern people think of as Christian, and that some of the Founding Fathers were Christian (i.e. Trinitarians) then Unitarians, then undecided (sometimes within the span of a decade) the argument over whether or not America was a Christian nation can get a little muddy.
For instance, did you know that Jefferson, often pointed to as the very essence of "separation of church and state," spent government money to send missionaries to the Native Americans?
Whatever you want to call them, the Founding Fathers did have faith and it's hard to believe that any of them (even and maybe especially Jefferson) would have looked with pride upon a time when the Establishment Clause, used almost exclusively separate from the Abridgment Clause that directly follows it, would be used to quash religious discussion and display in public.
But, there are few if any truths in religions, the only truth is reality. Anyone who makes claims of their religion holding the "one Truth" they are obviously lying or deluded.
Truth does not demand to be proclaimed, that is nonsense.
No, they proclaim their so-called truths to be the "one Truth" and that is what causes strife and discord.
There is a very simple solution, believers merely have to keep their beliefs behind closed doors where they belong.
Troubled, your words serve to demonstrate yourself as a model which exactly portrays what I was trying to say both here and in an earlier post on this thread. That is, for one, that Christians do not have a corner on being "judgmental." And also that, like every Joe Schmoe on the planet, you believe your truth to be the One Truth (but is it?), and so that is the truth that you are naturally going to proclaim.
True, other religious folks judge us, as well.
No, I don't believe reality is truth, I understand it. No proclamations required.
Hahahaha! Reading your first line, I see you COMPLETELY missed my point... but I'll give your intelligence the benefit of the doubt and imagine that perhaps you did it on purpose.
As for your second line... hmm... maybe I rescind what I said about your intelligence in my first paragraph.
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I'd like to say that it seems to me that they aren't anti-Christian, but rather non-Christian. There's a big difference. Didn't spot any anti-Christian activity here just yet.
Tom, I don't recall that I SAID there was anti-Christian activity HERE, specifically, on this thread. However, now that you bring it up, I might disagree with that - a little. Not naming names, but there is, at the very least, subtle evidence of it. If one is a Christian, one can see it. Naturally, since I am a Christian, I am more sensitive to its presence. For those who aren't, it's probably not as apparent. Human nature, you know...
I think you confuse disagreement and disbelief with anti Christian sentiment. No one us shooting for Christians to be thrown to the lions, imprisoned or tortured. That would be anti Christian. Disagreeing with Christians and discussing things in a way that everyone is entitled to their own opinion is not anti Christian, it's simply free speech. What you seem to want is a venue where only Christians can pat each other on the back and no dissent is allowed. Anything else seems to get the label anti Christian.
And, do you also see the "anti-non-Christian" activity HERE? There is a plenty. But, perhaps only us "atheist/agnostic types" (your words) can see it. Glass houses....
And if there are anti or non Christians here on HubPages expressing their opinions and views openly, just as openly and as freely as you??? What about it? That IS allowed. That IS freedom of speech. Because others disagree with you that does NOT mean they are anti-Christian, but of course, if they were anti or non Christian, that IS allowed too. No one has more entitlement than anyone else. Equal playing field and all you see...
Wow, your hypocrisy knows no bounds. YOU are the one tossing out personal insults, not us.
I been trying to not post on here, but I decided I needed to comment.
1st. Welcome to Hub pages Cherihut.
I enjoy hub pages, though I do try to stay out of the religious forums. I use to visit, but would get frustrated. I would see so many forums pro Christianity and any other religion, or Goddess forbid non believers were just heathens. Oh wait, I am a heathen. I am a witch, pagan. I grew up Jewish though, and as customary with them, and pagans, we do not believe it is necessary to convert. I don't feel it is necessary to degrade another's belief, which I see done often in this forum by Christians.
There are those that enjoy debating, so I leave that to them. I am not a bit sorry for any Christian who feels they are not treated well here or anywhere. Perhaps when they start treating others with respect, they will receive it in kind. Show me respect, it will be shown back to you. If not, I will ignore them. It does no good to try to talk to people who are so against anything I might believe in. Tried that and I do better talking to the wall.
There are way more hubs and forums pro Christianity then any other religious groups here. I can't for the life of me see why someone would feel Hub Pages is anti-Christianity.
You have intelligent people who write on Hub Pages, who have a variety of view points. We live in a world that is blessed with a variety of view points, religions, non-religious, and atheist. I love it. I would find this to be a boring world to live with one view only. I embrace opinions of those who think different then me. Goddess would not wish me to run, because the majority of people on this forum cant relate to Her. Oye, why would I. I do not care what others think, since I am comfortable in my own beliefs.
Christianity is not the only religion or major religion in the world, just one of the most vocal. We live in a 'free' society, where we can express different views. I think instead of trying to run people down for not believing or catering to your belief, leaves a lot out. It to me is undesirable, though I am sure to others they would love to see other beliefs banished. We are still free.
Stay or go, it is your choice. The reality is that Hub pages are vocally predominate in Christianity. You have that twisted around.
I see religious and non-religious people have (sometimes heated) discussions where neither side is immune to criticism as the most fundamental levels.
This is only anti-Christian is you feel Christianity should be the unquestioned correct way all people must think and no people may ever question.
I assure you, as an atheist I see at least the same amount of hostility in the forums with regularly suggestions that anyone who is atheist is stupid, evil or mentally/spiritually diseased.
Completely agree with this. I really think it comes down to perspective. As an atheist I have felt like my beliefs were attacked numerous times on these forums. The Q&A section seems especially hostile to me (perhaps just a select few who make it that way), but I assure you that those of us on the other side don't get the "anti-Christian" vibe from this place at all.
Regarding the thread that was posted above - yeah, that's a tough one. I don't agree with what all atheists say/do around here and my participation in those discussions has been dwindling because I'm not really interested in the low blows. That said, I have found myself defending atheism in threads accusing atheists of supporting horrible things by default, not having anything to live for, being devoid of morals, etc. Those threads all stayed open until they descended into complete ridiculousness and there was just nowhere else to go. So, it's certainly not just the "anti-Christian" threads that stay open.
As a whole I think this site is a pretty fair mix of beliefs and I think the moderators probably do their best to let us discuss freely. We are all adults and I actually prefer an atmosphere where every second thread isn't being closed because someone's offended. As far as I can tell, the hubs themselves are pretty strictly regulated for that kind of stuff but the forums are more open.
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