"Celebrations like Halloween are in conflict with Bible teachings. The Bible warns: 'There must never be anyone among you who . . .practices divination, who is soothsayer, augur or sorcerer, who uses charms, consults ghosts or spirits, or calls up the dead.'" Deteronomy 18:10,11, The New Jerusalem Bible; see also Leviticus 19:31; Galatians 5:19-21. (Awake, September 2013)
I do not recall ever seeing a child with a bag of candy on that night calling up ghosts. (As such a thing cannot be done, neither has anyone else, for that matter)
I have never seen any costumed (or not) person at a Halloween party trying to foretell the future or call up the dead. Such acts, including "...divination, who is soothsayer, augur or sorcerer, who uses charms, consults ghosts or spirits, or calls up the dead" have not been a part of any celebration I have ever seen or been a part of. If your parties differ, I would question just what kind of people you associate with.
So to answer your question, no. The only people that ever associated Halloween with Demons or Satan are Christians; those that originated the festivities had no such beliefs at all. They DID use divination (as does every scientist in the world) and they DID consult ghosts and call up the dead, but not on Halloween. Those practices died out long ago, though, as people educated themselves about the world around them.
Anyone who has never associated Halloween with demons has obviously never led charge of a group of four year olds hyped up on sugar and up way past their bedtime.
Demons are real... holy water doesn't work on them... Benedryl might though.
Thanks for your response. Please remember, whether they are conjuring up spirits or not during a Halloween party, is not the point. There have been a tremendous amount of research completed regarding the fact that "Halloween is steeped in paganism." You may view it as innocent but how does your "Grand Creator" view it, when you are dressed up as the walking dead? God wants us to be happy and celebrate life, not death which causes billions of people today to be sad when they lose a loved one. Death has never made anyone happy but the birth of a child, can bring happiness and a celebration.
It is up to each individual to make their own decisions because we all have free will, given to us by Jehovah God. Being informed and not a follower of what everyone else is doing, can be a true source of freedom. I have been free for many years of having the pressure of holidays such as Halloween because knowing its origin and explaining that to my children, gave them the freedom of choice. They do not have to wait until October to eat candy or wear costumes. This can be accomplished anytime, as they celebrate life daily.
LOL, most Christian holidays are steeped in Paganism.
I would suggest you don't celebrate any of them.
My "grand Creator" has no view at all on Halloween, probably because it does not exist.
Halloween originally celebrated the end of the life giving harvest, not death. It did have to do with their beloved ancestors, just as our memorial day does, but that is hardly a celebration of death.
Absolutely being informed is important. You might start by informing yourself on the history of Halloween before writing it off as evil: I strongly suspect that your "knowledge" of Halloween comes from your pastor (or equivalent) and not from a study of history.
Nearly all the parts of Halloween that you find evil comes directly from Christian influence, not the pagans. Witches, black cats, demons, devil worship - all of these come from the twisted minds of ancient Christians, not the nature loving pagans. Even the costumes and asking for treats came from the Christian community in the form of "souling" and later "guising". Certainly the mischief of Halloween originated with Christians long after they had stamped out the competing religion of Paganism. Even the dreaded Jack-O-Lantern comes from Ireland, long after the druids had vanished.
If you are interested in learning the actual history of Halloween rather than Christian propaganda designed to vilify it, I wrote a hub on it last year.
I always adored the conversations with JW's I had about satan and pagans.
No one ever had an answer as to how those who don't believe in the Bible can believe in a figure who is mentioned ONLY in the Bible.
Pagans were nice and happy worshiping their trees and the cycles of the season. Such a creature as Satan never crossed their mind.
I wonder if they realize that in order to worship Satan, you must first believe in him. Only Christians believe in him...
So yes, we have Christianity to thank for devil worshippers.
As an aside, I consider the association between pagans and evil to be very very close to hate speech.
Standing ovation, Melissa. +111111111111111......No disrespect to any Christian, but I sure wish they all could be more like you, Deepes, and Mo. The world would be a better place. Sincerest thanks to you.
No matter how we try to dismiss evil, whether we call it Satan or paganism, it still exist. I would love to live in a world without hatred but unfortunately that is why we still have to acknowledge 9/11. When we become informed, then we can prepare to be on the defense in any scenario. Pretending it does not exist, does not cause evil to go away. Please become informed, it can be lifesaving.
This is about one of the most stupid rationales I ever heard in my life .
I apologize for your rationale because obviously you have not done the research. If you have children or family members, they deserve the time you can take for research and prayer. How sad it is when we just follow the crowd and don't ask questions. We can end up being taken for ridiculous money that we do not have to spend or jeopardize our family and ourselves spiritually. So often, we try to figure out why we have been manipulated by politicians or corrupt individuals, when we should have just asked "why and for what purpose" are we doing certain things.
My response was to someone else that basically said that Christians were culpable for devil worshipers.
Kind of like driving my Nissan over someone and blaming Japan.
No, more like hearing 10th hand that someone else intentionally drove Nissan over someone and blaming Japan.
The council of Nissan decided to build a time machine and retroactively change the etymology of 17th century words. Of course there is no proof of that. But its TRUE! MY DAD Was a Licensed Driver!
Well I have to go to Church now because we are having a special service/ Bible class, on how to vilify other religions so we can convert them for the next 2000 years.
I do my research OUTSIDE of reading a Watchtower.
Although following the crowd comment was hilarious, all things considered.
Why are you so upset about death anyway? It's my understanding that the dead are only sleeping in your faith.
My kids are quite well taken care... they are also pretty psychologically healthy... at least healthy enough to know that eating some candy corn doesn't mean they worship the devil.
Maybe you should try reading the Watchtower. Might do you some good?
I am not really any denomination but I am descended from a famous Methodist but I have a lot of respect for JW. I like some of their basic tenets and they have an amazing story to tell regarding WW2 and the little holocaust they went though.
You must not proofread your own posts then...
That explains quite a bit.
Well said, wilderness, well said.
That said...many "Christian" traditions...including Christmas...were originally Pagan... (Winter solstice/Yule/Saturnalia) were all at that time of year.. they were simply "baptized" and yes, twisted, by the early church in their evil quest to convert everyone to THEIR way of thinking and worshipping--so they figured by absorbing the existing customs, it would make it easier to trick the Pagans into compliance....
Otherwise, they resorted to torture, murder, mayhem and other heinous, and decidedly UN-christian acts (The Crusades; The Spanish Inquisition; the slaughter of the Aztec and Mayan cultures, etc.) in order to FORCE their beliefs onto others.
Sadly, the lesson has not been learned, and even here, in our FREE country with FREEDOM of religion (by extension=freedom FROM religion), we are still besieged by those who would force THEIR beliefs into the laws of the land for the rest of us, despite our constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state. (This ploy is an attempt at an end-run around the Constitution, and should be treated as treasonous.)
And did you know that at the Council of Nicea, in about the year 325 or so--there were removed from the 'bible' more books than now currently exist within that tome??!! Among those books was the book of Massachai, which instructed priests, etc. in the details of how to murder, torture, rape, pillage, and otherwise violently intimidate others into "believing" as the church wanted them to? Yes, it is true--and what remains of that book is its contribution as the root of our modern word, "massacre."
How do I know? Because my husband is a licensed minister, and they teach all of these things in seminary school. After learning all of this, he refuses to practice, as he could not live with his conscience preaching what he knows to be lies.
Spare me from religions of all stripes! I've no use for any of them. They are all about control and power, nothing more. If you believe in a creator, and feel the need to worship, you don't need a church for that--a grove of redwood trees or a flowing stream will do just fine....
All true. In the very early days, Christianity HAD no holidays or celebrations. For the most part they came about as a method of gaining converts; set up a new holiday that conveniently coincides with one the people already have and conversion becomes a little easier. The idea was to keep the date as a holiday, just conscript the meaning to something Christianity found "good". The people are happy as they still have their celebration and the Church is happy as they are celebrating in a "good" way.
Early Christians knew this principle well, and most of their holidays were made for that very reason. Christmas, Halloween (All Saint's Day to Christians) and, to a lesser extent, even Easter were all designed specifically to make conversion of pagans easier.
Not to be nitpicky...but November 1 is All Saints' Day. October 31 is considered the EVE of All Saints Day, All Hallows' Eve, hence Halloween.
That is correct - the days were specifically chosen to coincide with Samhain, the pagan festival of harvest end/ winter beginning. Samhain (because of a different concept of what a "day" is) began sundown Oct 31 and continued through sundown Nov. 1. Note that Halloween, being celebrated after sundown, technically falls mostly on what we consider the next day, or All Saints Day. A little confusing because we figure a day from midnight to midnight, not sundown to sundown.
All of which pretty plainly tells us that Christianity inevitably had a part in creating our modern Halloween customs, as did the Pagans.
Nope... Christians that were sinners caused Halloween... Christians that weren't sinners built schools and churches.
It was a busy Christian... considering there was only one of him...ever...in all history.
The book of Massachai? Never heard of it. I am looking at the etymology of the word massacre and your post does not make sense. Books canonized for the NT would not be instructing priests anyway.
I think your whole post is nonsense and a deliberate smear.
Sorry you feel that way, PhoenixV, but it IS true. Naturally, since this was a 'secret' council of sorts; something the then powers-that-be did not want the average person to know, it was buried in the church archives, and not put into common dictionaries, so of course the etymology would seem to not match.
However, and I re-emphasize--these are things my husband learned IN SEMINARY SCHOOL....things that they don't speak of to their congregations.
It is not a smear--it is merely the truth of the matter--and sadly, the truth is often uncomfortable to hear.
Was it an online seminary school? The Council didnt canonize any books. It is BS that you cannot back up.
No, it was NOT an online school. It is located in San Jose, CA, and is reputable.
Canonization is what is done to PEOPLE to turn them into "saints" not to books. They DELETED books, not "sainted" them.
It is only BS to those who do not want to acknowledge the truth. And that truth is, that FOR THE MOST PART religion over the centuries HAS been used as a tool of power and control over the masses. After all, bottom line, churches are businesses--their 'tax exempt' status not withstanding. They are businesses--and if they can't keep people cowed and coming to church and donating, then, they are out of business...and what a business--to build fine buildings instead of doing what they preach...empty words.
A very true statement. They keep taking out of the Christian Bible anything that does not agree with what they are preaching. Some are worse than others.
Jesus would not be against Holidays for children. Some Christians also don't give gifts at Christmas. They have no parties and they give no gifts. They also won't allow Christmas Trees or Santa Claus. That is carrying it to far and it does not match up with the Bible.
Get one of the old versions of the Bible and then read a modern version. Man did not have the right to remove any part of the Bible.
You can't source any of your nonsense. How convenient that the only evidence of an alleged book that you claim was excluded in the Council Nicaea , (that took no part in including or excluding books, in the first place), the only evidence is another nonsensical claim that the etymology of a 17th century word was derived from that book. Then, if that was not ridiculous enough, mind you, from that strange claim as evidence you were able to extrapolate all sorts of stuff eg torture, murder.
The council most definitely included AND excluded books. That was it's purpose for being; to decide what writings went into the bible, as decreed by Constantine.
You might want to do a little research,
Maybe you can improve yourself.
A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the biblical canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council at all
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Coun … onceptions
The Truth lady, is that many Christians give their time and money their clothes and their food to people in need every single day.
So you can keep your lies.
Christians, like everyone else, donate to the poor so that means the council of Nicaea never met?
Just because "many Christians" do the right thing, does not mean they all do...or that no of from some other sect does not. That is beside the point...the point is...religion IS AND HAS BEEN the cause of more wars, disharmony and mass deaths than nearly any other cause.
"The truth is,"....that the bible was written many, many years AFTER the time of the man Jesus on earth..it is a collection of many different writings, some done as many as centuries later. It is, in full a work of HUMANS, not some diety...and its purpose is control...and, you might notice, male chauvinism...
(Look up some of the books yourself, and see how they condemn, disrespect and devalue women!)
The TRUTH is, if this tome were to be held up to the rules of evidence in a court of law, the entire collection would be dismissed as hearsay!
And with that, I'm done and out of here, because SOME people apparently cannot listen to truth without calling someone else names either directly or by implication. This has turned into a flame war, and I'm done.
Come back with a scholarly source for your claim. You made it, back it up.
Then we can talk about truth and evidence and respect.
You and Wilderness , Crazyhorse and Melissa and many others here at Hubpages forums, think you can smear Christianity and Christians with your lies and distortions?
But you are upset how you are being treated?
Smear Christianity? I never thought I'd see anyone with the attitude that history is a smear. It is what it is, bad or good, and anyone looking for truth recognizes that Christianity, in all it's forms, does not have a perfect record. It does not even have a good one.
So lean back, Phoenix, and learn. The council existed, it was under orders from Constantine, and it's task was to produce a bible acceptable to all the different Christian sects of the day. It accomplished that goal by carefully picking and choosing from amongst all the writings and "books" which ones would be put into their holy scriptures, and it changed the words of those older writings as necessary to make them palatable to everyone on the council.
That's not smearing Christianity - it's teaching history.
You don't know history. Anti Christians on hubpages forums have their versions of reality altogether.
Maybe you are not used to someone calling you on your BS?
Is that it?
Want to talk about mass murdering atheist regimes? How about the spread of syphilis all over Europe.
Yall say- The whole world would be better without the religion. The whole world would be better without religious people.
Yall plain evil.
Do the regimes have something to do with Halloween? Or even the origin of the bible?
No? Why would I wish to discuss them here then? To divert attention from how the bible was written?
If you can quote my post saying the "whole world would be better without the religion." I would love to see it. Otherwise I'll have to take that statement as just more spouting of Christian lies. You have to truth to offer, so spout lies instead.
Here is your homework sonny
A number of erroneous views have been stated regarding the council's role in establishing the biblical canon. In fact, there is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council at all
Organized religion namely Christianity built the one room schools all across the United States. They built many of the first Colleges. I think like Yale and Harvard and many more. They also founded most of the Hospitals.
You learning anything yet?
Everything you say there is true. Christianity has done many great things in many differnt fields here in the USA but at what expense were some of these things done.
Religion at this moment is causing war all around the world. People kill each other every day over religion.
The problem I have is that religion has become a major business in America. Super Churches in many American cities have tens of thousands of members. This is great and wonderful. But do you think that by what Jesus said in the Bible that this is what he would have wanted. I just don't think so.
Does that mean Halloween is about one room schoolhouses?
What does the Book of Mass-a-chewy that was edited out at the Council of Nicaea, that taught preachers how to torture and kill the followers, but that book is the reason we have the word Chewy Chips a hoy cookies have to do with Halloween and that's the only evidence we have there was a book?
Hubpages Anti Christian Liars
Nothing I know of, any more than the book of Mary (the oldest known writings about Jesus and also deleted from consideration for inclusion in the bible), but then I didn't bring it up, either.
Tell me, does it please you or give you power somehow to deride or ridicule posts by others (Mass-a-chewy). Or is the typical desperate twisting and spinning of the Christian, caught in a truth they don't like and trying to divert attention from it? Either way, it only proclaims in a loud voice that you have nothing else to offer - that you aren't worth listening to. You might want to consider limiting such comments, although if you're just trolling the forums they can be effective in producing a flame war.
I'm not trying to smear Christianity either. I did not say anything there in my posts that is not 100 percent true.
Carlisle Indian Industrial School
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlisle_I … ial_School
The goal of total assimilation can be summed up in the school's slogan: "To civilize the Indian, get him into civilization. To keep him civilized, let him stay."
Wounded Knee Massacre
Wounded Knee incident
Native American civil rights
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Ame … vil_rights
When Europeans first came to the Americas, they thought that they were discovering new land. Instead they were greeted with a land which was already inhabited by people with their own way of life. What happened after that is described by some as an American Holocaust. A lot of death and destruction came to Native American tribes when the European explorers and settlers landed.
The entire article can be read at
http://www.lcsc.edu/elmartin/historybeh … delema.htm
"Kill the Indian in him and save the man," said Capt. Richard Henry Pratt, the 19th century founder of the Carlisle Indian Industrial School. It was a prescription that became a model for Indian boarding schools that often coerced attendance and forced Indian children to change their language, dress and manners.
Read the full article there
http://www.npr.org/blogs/ombudsman/2013 … hite-homes
Bible Verses I Quoted Can Be Read At Below URL
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … rsion=NKJV
Jesus clearly has the hungry , the poor , those in prison and others in mind that he is talking about there. Remember it was Jesus who said it would be easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I loved the stories of Jesus as a child but I saw so many people treat people badly because of religion. One day it dawned on me that Jesus would not have wanted money spent building multi million dollar buildings. I believe that those words in Matthew tell you exactly what Jesus would want a Christian to do and how they should act.
Let me ask you have you ever read the book, What Would Jesus Do.
I don't think Jesus as I know him from the Bible would go along with a major part of what Christians do. I can not see Jesus saying to build another million dollar building when hungry children live down the street.
And Americans need to learn that Charity begans at home. Not one more dime should be sent over seas as long as we have poor, hungry, or homeless here in the USA.
No I am not putting Jesus or Christianity down. I am just saying read those verses in Matthew and ask yourself what would Jesus do.
Well I'm going to bed. I hope that everyone can find peace and understanding. We are here on this earth and it is home to all of us. If tomorrow we were attacked by a alien race from outer space I bet religion would seem so less important. I care about each and every man , woman, and child on this planet. I wish we could all have peace but I fear that religion will keep that from ever happening.
My friends dad is about 85 years old. His brother was the Chief of the Tribe where I live.
He is a Christian. He spends his days visiting men in jail. He plays his harmonica. He spends his days visiting people and his friends in Nursing homes and even gives them his money.
Later when there is a Dance he teaches the tribe members the right ways to perform the ceremonies, because they rarely know.
Maybe some day you could be like this Native American?
I'm sure he is a great man. I to teach and give talks. I teach my grandchildren my way but they also go to church. Or at least most of them do.
I think children should be exposed to all ways and let them choose.
Obviously, based on your posts here, you are nothing like your friend's dad. Maybe some day YOU could be like that Native American?
You do realize that you are, in essence, anonymous type on a writer's forum...
I don't really think anyone is upset about "how you are treating them"
I also don't care about your denials of history. It's not my job to educate the world. Your lack of knowledge in no way affects my life.
Carry on... fight the good fight and all that.
I know in the O T they traditionally devalue woman. But I must confess my friend........... I found freedom in that powerful testimony of Christ. His life and his death. These things are revealed by the spirit. It would be unfair for me to expect anyone else to understand such a personal revelation. And though I would love to convince all of you, that relationship with God through his son Jesus is beyond logic and reason just as love and passion can be beyond logic and reason I rather enjoy your debate. I will say this however. I really don't know of religions that encourage hate, just those who use it for that purpose.
That last comment makes me think of Jesus, ironically. His message was simple, and to the point. About freedom and life, and he is the person Christians are supposedly supposed to be following.
Also, if his message is true, it makes sense others came along and distorted it. Using it for power, and using what turned out to be often anti Christ like means to do so. I find in times like this, the good tool for measurement is Jesus himself. Otherwise you can pull out of a "goody bag" all kinds of anti Christian thing to try and demonize it. Same is true for whichever religion is in question.
Let the kids celebrate it. Think of it as a "going away party" for those that support evil.
Quite a few churches these days (host) Halloween parties to provide a safe environment for their member's children. Most people don't confuse dressing up in costumes and seeking "free candy" or going out to a party with devil worship! This is especially true of young children.
Last but not least not everyone believes what was written in the bible is the "gospel truth". No pun intended. Nevertheless in a free society each of us has the "choice" to participate or not. Thank God! :-)
Anyone who "practices divination, who is soothsayer, augur or sorcerer, who uses charms, consults ghosts or spirits, or calls up the dead" is having a very different Halloween from me.
What does the Bible say about costumes and candy bars?
Thanks for your response. When you carefully consider how the costumes and candy are part of the "event marketing," to Halloween. That is why the apostle Paul stated, "I do not want you to be participants with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. (1 Corinthians 10:20-22, New International Version) Paul also asked, "What common interest can there be between goodness and evil?" Numerous researchers as well as a spokesman for France's Conference of Catholic Bishops stated, "Halloween 'distorts the meaning of life and death.'" The majority of mankind enjoys the celebration of life. Anything that has to do with the celebration of death, I personally try to avoid because it brings too much sadness. For additional information on "The Truth About Popular Celebrations" go to www.jw.org
Souling, the history of our candy, was children asking for "soul cakes" in return for offering a prayer the next day (All Souls Day) for the givers ancestors.
Guilsing, the next development, was children in costume visiting homes asking for coins, cakes or fruits, often carrying hollowed out turnips with candles in them. The first recorded Guising was in 1895 Scotland - a bastion of Christianity.
Can you explain what either one of these has to do with demons? Outside, of course, that all are connected to Christianity and none of them have anything to do with Paganism?
Interesting response. Please consider, that even if you did not consider Christianity in the picture, why would we make a mockery of our precious ancestors by dressing up in costumes of witches, devils or ghosts? We should want to celebrate the life they lived and not find a holiday such as Halloween, to remember them by. I think, they deserve better.
Why in the world would you find such things to be a mockery? People, particularly children, have fun "dressing up" and there is no more mockery intended during Halloween than there is in a movie or play script. Should you or anyone else take offense it HAS to be because you are looking and trying hard to find something to be offended about.
Are you trying to say that modern Halloween celebrations are about our ancestors? Because the ghosts of Halloween, the ancestors, were left behind mellenia ago. They no long play a part at all; just playing, dressing up as a general "scary" ghost and not anyone's specific ancestor at all.
Truly, setting aside carefully designed and built up excuses, do you have ANY reason to hate the holiday so much? Outside of a tiny handful of people making up their own rules, Halloween has absolutely nothing to do with religion anymore. It's not about death, demons, the devil, ghosts or any other supernatural superstition - it's about kids trick or treating, laughter and excitement. As with all celebrations, it's about party time and enjoying yourself with other people. Had you given your children the chance to participate and watched as they charged up to a house (pausing to make sure that pumpkin wasn't a monster) and, giving the homeowner a cheerful and excited "Tank OOO!" as they ran off with their "plunder", you would have a much better understanding of what Halloween is today. For it really is not what that small handful wish to turn it into and you really have turned a child's playground into something evil, something it never was even in Pagan times.
Christians have a very long (2,000 year) history of vilify the celebrations of other belief systems regardless of what form they took. It was a very carefully designed and orchestrated effort to promote conversion, and it is long past time that such activity died. Come, join the 21st century and leave the evils that Christianity promoted to history. Take Christ as your savior, and God as your personal god, as you see fit, but leave the evils the organized church did in the past where they belong.
That's not to mention the fact that magic and divination are fictional ramblings of ancient madmen, and those people who actually believe them to be real should probably be checked into an insane asylum.
I am so sorry you feel that way. If evil, magic and divination does not exist, what do you think causes people to walk into schools and kill innocent children? What causes people to walk with a facility and just kill innocent men, women and children just for the thrill of it. Sure, some do have mental issues. But what caused even the mentally challenged to experience this type of imperfection. I would love to live in a world where evil things did not occur but everyday we see unexplained violence everywhere. Humans were created in God's image and that is why we are compassionate, loving and merciful. From the Garden of Eden where Satan caused Adam and Eve to disobey Jehovah God based on Genesis Chapter three, down to our day; all mankind continues to be sinful and experience problems with the wicked one trying to get us to disobey God as well. Pretending that evil does not exist, will never cause it to go away. Check your daily news stories. Mankind is just not that wicked, something influences them to do wicked acts just as Satan influenced Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Please pray for direction and do your research. It is a trick by Satan, that you don't believe he exist. Good and evil has always existed from the beginning of time.
If you want to do some additional research, please obtain a free copy of a publication entitled, "What Does The Bible Really Teach?" Chapter ten explains, "Spirit Creatures-How They Affect Us?" This publication can be obtained at www.jw.org
You have already provided the answer to those questions...
Now, you know.
One more link to the website, I'm considering it spamming and reporting it. Religions conversation is one thing, but the forums are not the place for blatant spamming to your religion's website.
Show some tact.
Secondly, mental illness is not caused by Satan. That's ALSO hate speech. You've successfully managed to spread both lies and vile hatred against a religious group and a disabled group by implying that both were evil and suggesting a disability was caused by evil spirits.
Thirdly, you talk about children's deaths nonchalantly to prove a religious point. That's pretty reprehensible. If your faith was really the correct one, it is unlikely that you would need to attempt to convert by using dead children as your soapbox.
Jesus wouldn't use such uncaring, hurtful tactics just to gain members to fill the collection plates.
Your posts read like I would guess a town meeting in Salem sounded. Next thing you know, someone is going to suggest burning a bi-polar person or someone with autism at the stake to rid him of his demonic possession.
The problem is that you don't believe in the true religion - Pastafarians. Until you accept the Flying Spaghetti Monster as the One True God and are touched by his noodly appendage, you will never be spiritually complete. I strongly urge you to accept the truth and the gospel. I am happy to refer to the appropriate religious texts and resources.
Sorry, you feel that way. Do you really think that anything associated with death, should be celebrated? Death causes too much sadness no matter how or what package it is wrapped in. Even if it is called, "Halloween." I just try to stay informed and not follow the crowd because millions try to say it is ok. If you do some additional research, your opinion might be different. Remember, we all have "free will."
It isn't ABOUT death, for pity sakes. It's about having fun.
Besides, even if it were a "celebration" of death...so what? It's not like folks are saying they are happy someone has died--they are merely re-affirming and acknowledging that death is but a part of life, given that you don't get out of life alive. The modern "taboo" on speaking about death, and all its euphemisms is rather ridiculous. We no longer die; we "kick the bucket; buy the farm; pass on; go to one's reward; shuffle off this mortal coil (Shakespeare); pass away; cross to the other side," and any number of other silly expressions to avoid saying simply that someone died.
Please explain the death of children, the way you expressed it to parents or siblings, who have lost someone, poisoned by candy on Halloween. Every year, somewhere in the world, this occurs during this celebration that you explained as, "It isn't ABOUT death, for pity sakes. It's about having fun." Why is it necessary, for parents every year to pick certain homes that their children can obtain candy from? Even after some parents do this, they still go through the candy their children obtained, to make sure it is safe. I pray that we do not lose another child on these type of celebrations and then explain to their loved ones, "simply that someone died."
Um, you think the existence of a few child hating freaks means Halloween is "about" death>
No, it isn't.
No more than roller-costers, or riding ponies, or giving birth, or a million others things that occassionally have mortalities are.
Based on your logic, we need to stop doing absolutely everything in which "somewhere in the world... who have lost someone".
We better stop using cars, taking showers, having bath, walking on floors, running, breathing, etc.
Poisoned candy is actually a grossly exaggerated urban myth. Real instances of it are very few and far between - if they are there at all.
Also, people committing horrible acts doesn't have anything to do with Halloween. Horrible things happen every day. That's life, not demons. I mean, I could say church is about religious leaders raping children by your logic, just because it has happened, that is clearly what Christianity is about, right? Raping kids?
+1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, here WE go again with ANOTHER SUCH THREAD. The ever continuing saga..................
BOOOOOOOO, OOGIE BOOOOOO!
lol is that Darth Maul? Gotta love these stupid "ahhh! Demons! Pagans! praise Jesus and shun the non-believers!" threads. The only real worthy response is trolling them.
Better yet, ATTACK and go for the JUGULAR, HE HE HE..........
lol lol lol. Been watching this thread and was waiting for someone to lighten the atmosphere...lol
Thanks Cardisa, lighten the thread but in a DARK way...........ooooooooh, boogety, boogety, boogety boooooooooooo.
Hellllllooooo.............Let's have some.....FUN........shall WE.........(demonic laughter)
I'm GAME................YOU know ME......................
Hmmmmm............................ Who shall WE.....er YOU invite to this dark fest, my dear?
I'M on board, of course........
Don't you DARE forget me, MY REPUTATION precedes ME, EVERYONE knows who I AM......
To the OP, I think what matters is your intent on Halloween, when people take their little kids trick or treating. Personally, I don't find the things listed in your verses to be the same as when kids dress up to go say trick or treat for candy. That said, I respect anyone's right to not do so if they felt they were to be doing something along the lines of divination, sorcery and witchcraft, etc.
Um... wow, what a question, let me try to answer with a straight face, haha. Halloween, as Samhain, existed before Christianity existed. Back to the Celtic pagans, it was a day of remembering the dead, and believed that spirits were closer to the human world on that day than any other day in the year. Halloween basically existed before the idea of Satan even existed, so no, this holiday has nothing to do with Christian mythology. Not to mention, today, only New Age Pagans, such as Wiccans, actually hold any kind of "ancient" significance to it, it's today basically just a fun holiday to celebrate spooky stuff, wear costumes and eat candy.
interesting reply. Please remember that Satan existed in the Garden of Eden. He tricked Eve into believing that, "You positively will not die," if she disobeyed God. (Genesis 3:4) The garden of Eden was definitely before any man made holiday. Satan continues to use the same tactics today, by tricking us to believe that certain holidays such as Halloween are just fun and he has nothing to do with him and his demons. Please do more research and just learn to ask questions about what you get involved in.
..celebrating death is a good thing for some....i wish i could have experienced the day of the dead when i was in mexico....it's a celebration....remembering those who have passed.....celebrating loved ones who have died and who they were and remembering...not quite Oct 31 but Nov 1/2....which with catholics is/was all saints day - Nov 1 - a holy day.......and then there is the fun stuff around halloween in NA for kids to have some fun....more celebrating....as a catholic kid growing up...we had Nov 1 off to sleep in and eat some of our candy from the previous night's 'trick/treating' - Oct. 31....it was a fun time
...believe in the devil/evil shyte all you want OP ....glad i do not walk through life thinking about that....and fearing something that doesn't exist but in one's mind.....relax OP...find the more positive side of life....and it will be good....don't try to define it ....just take it one day at a time....and enjoy....be happy
Halloween which happens to be one of my favorite holidays is not about Satan Worship. Some really uptight Christians claim it is but that's just not so.
Halloween was taken from All Hallows Eve which is the day before The Feast of all Saints which is on November 1.
A lot of the Halloween Traditions are from the Celtic Samhain which was a holiday celebrating the end of summer and the harvest.
The first Jack O' Lanterns were hand carved turnips with a candle inside. It was not until the custom came to America that a pumpkin was used.
I was raised a Catholic and at one point in my life I was ordained a Catholic Priest. I have returned to my Native American religion and have come full circle. So many people who profess to be Christians would probably run Jesus off if he came to their church in a robe and sandals. I resigned years ago from the Catholic church because of my beliefs and because I was madly in love with a woman who is the greatest woman I ever knew. I'm still with her today and I am very happy. I was 63 in May and I love life. Halloween makes children happy and that makes it fine for me. I will be carving pumpkins and decorating my yard.
I get angry at churches who have Halloween Carnivals and then push religion on the children and parents who come to the events. It is cruel to do that to little children with developing minds. Allow them time to figure out who they are and what they want to be.
I guess you could say I'm now a Pagan. And I am happier than I have ever been in my life. You know what I think Jesus would have approved of Halloween.
Exactly. I loved your reply PhoenixV. Christian missionaries stole my grandmother from the Pine Ridge reservation when she was 9. Her parents who were Sioux had both died in the 1917 Flu pandemic. They brought her to North Carolina and raised her as a Christian but it never worked. She always remembered the traditions of her people. She never got to return to the Pine Ridge reservation and she died while I was overseas in service. I have since returned her ashes to the Pine Ridge Reservation.
In my mind Colombus discovered nothing in 1492 and the Christian Monks hurt more people and spread more hate than any other people. The Native American people were made to become Christians in order to eat and even then they were barely given enough rations to keep them alive. I have to be careful because even today I have a lot of anger at those Christians. Millions of Native Americans were wiped out and killed in the name of Christianity. I don't think Jesus would have agreed with it and I don't think he would agree with what is done in his name today.
Satan was once the most beautiful of Angels according to the Christian Bible. But much of that Bible has been cleaned up and changed over the years from what was once there. Read an English Translation of a 1535 Gutenburg and you would think you are reading another book. Building a building bigger and bigger each year is not what Jesus was talking about. The questions he asks according to the KJV Bible which is the most accepted version is
1. Did you feed my sheep.
2. Did you visit those sick and in prison.
3. Did you give shelter to your fellow man.
Its all in Matthew 25:31-46.
You know its rare for preachers to preach from those verses.
I like to ask practicing Christians if they are living up to those verses. If not then you better. And stop building bigger and bigger churches. Instead use the money to clothe the naked, to feed the hungry and to shelter the homeless.
I fear many Christians are in danger of hell fire and brimstone. Its not me saying it its Jesus in those verses in Matthew.
Depart from me you cursed would be scary words to hear. Christanity should never be about buildings or dressing up fine on Sunday morning. If you really want to practice true Christian faith take a few gallons of milk to a homeless shelter or take sandwiches to the park next Sunday morning instead of dressing up and setting among the other sinners who don't get it either.
If you are a Christian be careful and know what your preaching. Jesus never dressed up in a suit and tie. He hung out with the poor and prostitutes. He fed the multitudes. Have you ever fed a hungry child. Ask yourself that age old question, What Would Jesus Do.
I hope the Great Spirit brings you peace and understanding.
So they should have just left a child with two dead parents?
Or are you blaming influenza on Jesus?
I am part Cherokee. My best friend is the son and brother of a Chief. His uncle is full blood and all Christian. He loves Jesus.
No they should have left the children with the live relatives which were still there. Many Native American children were removed this way. They cut their hair and put them in white mans clothes.They forbid them to speak Sioux and beat them when they did. They tried to make them into white people. Which they were not.
No the Flu was spread by people. Not Jesus , God, or the Great Spirit.
I am saying that Christianity should never have been forced on anyone. And they are still doing it today. Just like the churches that have Halloween parties to spread their faith on the children and parents who come to the party. This is wrong in so many ways.
The Cherokee were and are one of the most civilized of all the Native American People. Many of them were forced to convert to Christianity early on. Children become what their parents are. I myself think the Cherokee should stand up for their rights and refuse to be ruled by decisions of North Carolina or the Federal Government. The U.S. Government has always had a strangle hold on the Eastern Band of the Cherokee. They should demand more independence. They should be alloweed to rule themselves with out having to ask North Carolina, " may I ". I speak often at meetings on and around the Cherokee Reservation.
But they should never forget what was done to them. Search for the Trail of Tears. Or go to the Eastern Band Cherokee Reservation and watch the play that is put on nightly.
I am a proud member of A.I.M. and support the rights of the Native American People. Much of the land that was stolen mostly in the name of turning the heathen savages into Christians should have to be returned. Or the Federal Government should have to pay for what was done.
Do you know how many treaties the US Government kept that they made with the Native Americans. Not a single one. Not even one. That its self is sad enough but then they starved the Native Americans and forced them onto lands that were worthless.
I don't hate Jesus I just think a lot of Christians are confused about who he is. I don't think Jesus would have supported the destruction of the Native American tribes in the name of Christianity. Much has been done in the name of religion that was so wrong.
I don't think Jesus would dress everyone up on Sunday and try to collect money to build the church just a little bigger. I think he would ask that the money be used for the poor. The church that Jesus spoke of building was the people. Not a multi million dollar building.
I believe that America is dying from with in because of all the bad things that the U.S. Government has done. Mostly in the name of religion. Some day maybe people will wake up and realize what religion has done to them. Think of all the millions of people who have died because of religion. It is sad indeed. Would Jesus approve of this. I think not.
Every man woman and child that got off the mayflower was a preacher and every native american was kind of like Gandhi with a headdress? Kind of like Dances with Wolves World? I have Indian friends.
I don't understand your bitterness. Its sad and situations like this that people can't get along. I 'm not going to argue with you. I hope you find peace some day. The people on the Mayflower came here to America to escape religious persecution.
Christians fight Muslims and various sects of Muslims fight each other. The world would be a lot better place with no religion at all.
As a Christian myself....I really hate these kinds of bible thumping threads!
With all due respect to the anti religious and specifically the anti Christians here....
My observation over the years is that there is often a topic like this (Could be really any topic on hubpages, especially religion though) where people take and make it about putting down Christians and Christianity.
Any one of us can go back and look in the thread to see who took it to something OTHER than the topic at hand. This thread is the perfect example. Then the taking of that and putting that also on a Christian is quite amazing to me. I have seen it countless times, the blaming of the very thing the person is engaging in or defending themselves.
I think it is something that is meant to be a clue to us, not something that turns into wasted time and efforts in our lives. Why do people do that? Why do people engage in what really is strange behavior as it turns out? I mean, to demonize a whole group of people and world view for what turns out to non factual things? It is tiresome, and actually hurts HubPages and its credibility besides the people.
Facts matter. Reason and logic are valuable and prevent a lot of hurt and pain in our lives.
Some obvious facts that need to be pointed out and remembered at times like this.
Having to do with Christ and Christians in particular:
1.Jesus Christ didn't teach anyone to kill, maim, torture or spread diseases on purpose or starve people.
2.Jesus didn't teach anyone to use use their beliefs and religion to hurt others by exerting power over them or to rule them. He actually condemned religious leaders abusing their powers for some other kind of gain.
3. Jesus' teachings would IRONICALLY be in line with even many anti Christians beliefs and thoughts as posed here, if they really are more about loving others and even enemies than hurting others as anyone can find examples of in history.
4. Christ and Christianity didn't and doesn't teach us these things, so SOMETHING ELSE is to blame, like the people themselves, or OTHER teachings or beliefs. Christianity even touches on hypocrites and their actions and what happens to people in the long run that cause others to stumble, etc.
So, we have to ask ourselves what would possibly explain this strange behavior of demonizing Jesus' teachings and that whole worldview AS IF IT were to blame for the many examples given here that the anti Christians and anti religious are against. What would explain demonizing it to the degree we see, when the teachings themselves are actually amazingly good and seem like a good way to go for societies everywhere and for all time? Not much explains it, except that Jesus was absolutely right on the money about all he said and taught. It is heartbreaking to me that people won't or don't want to see this clue.
Jesus Christ would be first to say, "don't starve, don't try to force or control people, love them, help them."
Demonize the right things.
For the most part, the primary damage done by Christianity has been done by the Church. Not individual Christians, but by the organized Church that seeks, always, to control others.
That doesn't, unfortunately, mean that individuals are not guilty as well. The OP, reading into the actions of others things that simply are...not...there in an effort to demonize the people or their behavior, is as guilty as anyone. Others as well have openly declared that anyone not agreeing with every detail of their personal myth are demonic somehow and there is desperate need of control there, too.
Neither of which has anything at all to do with Jesus or his teachings. They are, at the root, an interpretation of those teachings that fit with the desires and attitudes of the individual; an interpretation whose "truth" is more about personal ideology and control than reality or truth.
I think you helped to make the point by mentioning the Church, and I have a feeling which you are alluding to. Any brutality and control like what has been discussed is counter to the teachings of Jesus, and part of my point is just that. Why not go after those that deserve "going after" rather than lumping the whole worldview, as if Christianity itself ever could be blamed. It would be fair, and logical and make sense then.
Instead we see all of religion as being bashed, when there are plenty of examples in even recent history like the last century where the biggest amount of atrocities committed were by those that did not subscribe to any religion at all. My point being, it isn't the religion or the lack of that is the problem. IF it truly is being suggested that the belief or worldview is to blame, then those people over the last century that were non religious and their worldview is in the biggest "trouble" of all. I suspect some here would balk at that if we played with the same reasoning on all sides.
If we want our arguments to make sense, hold water, and be fair, we need to be consistent, factual and reasonable people when we engage each other. We would all be better off and enjoy the discussions and debates more. I appreciate your comment.
It is a fact that cults of Christianity, and people that use it for personal gain cause a great deal of harm to Christianity's real message from Jesus which can be found in the Gospel Writings.
It is a fact that anti Christians love to point to those people and cults of Christianity, or to those that break the teachings of Christ, and use them AS the way to define and then condemn Christians and Christianity. It isn't really different from cheating to win in a game or sport. Only in this case it is like cheating to win in a discussion of ideas, or a debate. It is not satisfying, and that is why I think many keep using the repetitive behavior in these forums hoping to achieve something they never can. The best ideas and truths stand on their own, no games needed to "win."
All true. As is the recognized fact that those cults and individuals are Christian and a part of Christianity. Other Christians will try to disavow them, saying they aren't "real" Christians, but that is just as false as acting as the cults were all there was to Christianity.
It works both ways, you see.
Ah, now this is very interesting and you key on some main things here. You are sharing with us all how you define Christianity, and that includes the cults of Christianity and those that do anti Christian things if I am understanding you correctly as you responded to my prior post there.
If you define it in such ways, then Christianity really isn't anything at all, and everything all at once. It is all good, and all bad, and that would be illogical. I respectfully disagree with you and not for the reasons you may think, but for the reasons I just gave.
You don't find people doing this kind of playing around with the meaning of something in other areas of life, but you see it strongly with people about Christianity, and it is those that are against it that do it. My point in part is that Christianity is a great thing, and can be defined by what it actually is, or by what others want it to be, which is something that is often anti-Christianity.
Another way to put it is this. If you are against Christianity for reasons that turn out to be things that are examples of anti Christian teachings, then really aren't you rooting for the teachings of Jesus, just in a backwards kind of way? I am trying to point out the openly seen irony there so people might care and think a little bit more before they lump on the demonization bandwagon.
If you or others want to paint Christianity with the brush of what its heretics do, for whatever personal reasons go with that, then that is fine but its fautly reasoning and logic. It is sad it has to be put so plainly (not necessarily to you, but to any that do it), but this is actually key to what I see too often in these forums. It is why I don't debate or discuss here too often. There sometimes doesn't seem to be combined respect for truth, reason, logic and fair debate. Without that, the "cheaters" will win by default (by below the belt tactics and other stuff we see) , but never by merit.
Christianity, like it or not, is painted with many brushes. It is painted with the black of evil, the white of good and every other color of the rainbow, filling in between the two.
You see, you can claim that you have interpreted the holy scriptures correctly, and know what Jesus said while others have not, but you have exactly zero knowledge that such a statement is true. At best we have writings of men living hundreds of years after Christ, repeating what was passed down verbally through a dozen generations. At worst, Jesus was a fabrication, made up by either Jews or Romans as a political move to control people.
We shall never know for sure what Jesus said, and that most definitely includes whatever it is you personally ascribe to Him. So yes, there are a great many people that deserve the "Christian" title - people that are far from your own beliefs. It is all a part of the overall "Christian" group, just as the radically differing sects of Islam are all a part of it. The "You're not a real Christian" just doesn't wash.
That is the faulty reasoning then; the belief that you, along with a select few others that share your beliefs, know the truth of what Jesus said or wants. You cannot truthfully make such a claim.
Ok, as an example, Loving your neighbor as yourself, cannot be interpreted to starve and control others and kill them. You are keying on something that makes no sense in light of the discussion or what we know. What else would YOU suggest we go by, if not the writings of the gospels? Please do offer up something better than that, that would weigh in more heavily in this discussions?
Please offer up another way to take, "love your enemies, pray for them that persecute you", etc.
I do understand that taking away the actions of the heretics of Christianity could be deeply disturbing to someone that has grown accustomed to needing them to make a case against Christianity. That you say that radically differeing sects of Islam are all also a part of Christianity makes me realize my efforts with you are indeed going to be futile. That is just an error in facts, logic, and reasoning ability.
Another thing he said, is that it would be just like this. People treating his followers the way they treated him. The need for lies and deception is the only way to pull it off. It takes guts for people to look at Christianity honestly, and not all are up for it.
As for you, Jesus, and myself, we would all agree the things that people did bad in history are bad, that is the point. Where is the disconnect? Each and every atrocity cannot be traced to a teaching of Jesus. His teachings are opposite, and also hold warnings for those that say one thing yet do another. If you could trace atrocities to a teaching of Jesus, then you and I both could fairly demonize Christianity. I am asking you to be fair to each and every religion. Test them all out the same way.
I am asking also, that when you cannot treat Christianity fairly yet seem to be more fair minded with other things, ask yourself why that strange observance is the case? Nothing explains it....well except the worldview that Jesus had. That is a clue for people that actually are searching for real truth and care about the biggest issues in life. Not all want that, and I get that. You can't just choose to paint Christianity evil, without proving how it is. Pointing to those that go against Christianity's teachings only scores a goal with the Christians, and that is my main point. If you are fair, you will see this, and or you can also point to other sources that are better than the gospels that I ought to be looking at to see what Jesus taught. Thanks.
Was checking back to see if we have any new information on the secret book that was smuggled out by the Council of Nicea, that was instructing priests to various sorts of horrifying crimes to people?
I have personally never heard of said book, and been studying this stuff for a lot of my life and even at Seminary level myself for a while. So this was new news to me. Willing to learn new things anytime, so was looking for that.
Can you imagine the late fees on that book? Been missing all this time? Nonsense.
Heads up here comes some red herrings. Its a waste of time to debate dishonest people. All they can do is distort and play dishonest games.
"Can you imagine the late fees on that book"
Kind of like Dances with Wolves World"
"What a load of garbage"
"You and Wilderness , Crazyhorse and Melissa and many others here at Hubpages forums, think you can smear Christianity and Christians with your lies and distortions?" (No one has tried to smear the religion - just discuss known history).
"Maybe you should try reading the Watchtower"
"Was it an online seminary school?"
"Want to talk about mass murdering atheist regimes? How about the spread of syphilis all over Europe." (Great response to discussion of the Council of Nicaea).
"Book of Mass-a-chewy"
Yeah - all that some can do is play dishonest games.
Can you source that book? Why should hubpages anti-Christians whine when they are called on their smears?
hubpages anti-Christians shovel it out then cry like babies when called on it.
What book is that? The one Dzy mentioned, that you tried to ridicule?
No, that's the first I had heard about it. Can I cry anyway?
People caring more about the supposed ridiculing of a title of an unknown secret book than whether or not it ever existed or not and how we can know it? It had been asked about several times...
Why not be upset at the putting down of whole groups of people for what turns out to be really bad reasoning? This is part of what is wrong in our world, some not being consistent in the maltreatment of others, yet capitalizing on a very small thing when done against a wrong "side." In this case, a goofy play on phonetic mispronunciation of an unknown book? Was that mean? Should he apologize? If so, is everyone else that did far worse going to get in line to really profusely apologize? See, I highly doubt that. Such extreme inconsistency shows there is a problem, some reason to have to play such games. You have to do that when defending something that begins to be indefensible. That is just a fact of life and is repeatable and observable to any of us. If I ever do that, I ask someone call me on it as well.
It is truly crazy for me to observe what I see in here sometimes. Not just here either, sadly.
With all due respect to those that engage in such ways, it is very possible those that point out the possible dishonesty are doing a kind thing, even if it doesn't feel like it. It isn't about answering genuine questions, or uncovering truths of matters. This world is getting worse and worse too in this regard. It is wrecking a lot as well, and it will continue to.
Well you see, Ocean, I don't care one iota if the book is real or not. So its existence is irrelevant to me.
What IS relevant is that this one has, over 90% of his posts, ridiculed or otherwise made rude comments to anyone posting. Whether his post had anything to do with what he was replying to or not (usually not) he has accused nearly everyone here of smearing his religion although no one has even begun to do so.
Yes, it's rather sad, but it is also something we all see at one time or another. Not everyone is pleasant, not everyone is looking for truth. There are trolls everywhere.
You admit you don't know if the book is real or not, yet you replied "all true". You dont think its relevant?
You just went along with smearing the beliefs of a billion or so people and you have no idea if the smear was true or not. And you dont think its relevant, but you are the victim?
Guilty as charged - my bad and I apologize.
For not catching the title of the book as not being recognized when typing that "all true". Because there WERE more books left out than included. Because torture and mayhem WAS a mainstay of the conversion process. Because they DID force their beliefs onto others.
So basically, everything Dzy said was true with the possible exception of that specific book. It was not, however, a smear of Christianity, just history. History that you may not want to accept as it puts ancient Christianity in a very poor light, but it was what it was and all your protestations to the contrary won't change that.
I find it funny that they are all up in arms about their (and my) religion being smeared, but it was perfectly fine to smear the religion of millions of pagans by inferring it was evil.
There's a word for that...
Can you share the post where anyone said that it was perfectly fine? I am assuming you are telling the truth, and that I just missed it?
I know I didn't say that, and didn't see anyone else say it was perfectly fine for a smear of pagans? I even didn't agree with the OP fully, as far as my own beliefs go. So not sure what you are talking about? Thanks.
Worse, it still is. Mormons aren't Christian. Catholics aren't Christian. JW's aren't Christian. The list is endless of sects that aren't Christian - all you need to do is find the "right" Christian to ask, and there are some right here on HP.
They're all Christians.
It's enough to make you weep. Although I'd be that word I inferred in the previous post if I didn't say I didn't feel that way sometimes myself.
It took me a while to accept that, much like that creepy cousin that no one wants to invite to the family reunion, you have to claim one or claim none.
I understand atheism. At least you all don't have to shy away from each other looking embarrassed.
I just find it silly to deny history just because it doesn't look good for your faith. It's one of those "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" kinda things.
Back to the family analogy... it's like denying that Uncle Bob served time in Jail so that no one will think less of YOU. I never understood it.
Those Christians that did terrible things in the past, might be idiots... but they are CHRISTIAN idiots. We own that as a group. The WBC might be idiots, but the are still our idiots. Sucks right?
Melissa, can you point out who and where someone was denying history? I didn't see that happening either in this thread. In fact, I know I spoke over and over about the atrocious things that happened in history. You just can't blame Christianity for it, and if you do, you need to find a teaching of Jesus to back it up. Otherwise it is just a person being a sinner, that chooses to do a horrific act that may or may not be a Christian. As you and I both know, people can say all kinds of things and do another. Not everyone is honest, and some do use religion to do awful things. It has nothing to with Christianity though, and if someone NEEDS to blame it, they need to ask themselves why blame Jesus and his teachings for it, when his very teachings explain all we see! Even here in these threads we see his teachings proved again and again, as we see playing out over all of history. He got humanity "right", he hit the nail on the head. To an uncanny degree.
I didn't see any history deniers, though I did see people asking for back up of supposed facts. Nothing wrong with that right? Jesus spoke also, of people and their actions, and how it does say a lot about their hearts, and what was really going on with them. Sometimes I think people think they know the gospels but really wonder when I have to bring things up again and again to make my points. Speaking in general there.
I absolutely blame Christianity for it.
However I don't blame Christ.
His believers, oh hell yes. There are atrocities throughout history that were done by CHRISTIANITY.
If you want to say that they weren't real Christians, have at it. But they clutched their bible more tightly than you. If you are saying that's because they were sinners, then there's no such thing as Christianity anyway...
Those "Christians that weren't really Christians" led a convert or die program across Gaelic Europe against those "pagans" that was likely based on the verse quoted in the OP or one very much like it.
The OP accused them of being evil devil worshipers, which I'd say is pretty damn close to hate speech using the Bible as the source.
Is the OP not a Christian? If she isn't go ahead and say it.
Is Phoenix not a Christian because he defended her and accused me of smearing Christianity for defending an entire religion against those smears... if so, just say it.
Edited bc my grip of the English language slipped for a second.
We can disagree on whether or not Christianity as a worldview is even capable of doing things like commit atrocities over the course of history. I have given my reasons why I think its illogical to do so, and why I think it causes more harm than any good. I am glad you don't blame Christ for the atrocities, as that would really make no sense.
You may have missed me responding to another poster when I said I don't claim to make a call on who is and who isn't a Christian, as I can't possibly know. I don't play God, and would fail at it anyway in a huge way. So to your requests or comments about particular people in the thread, I can't and wouldn't want to say if they were Christians or not.
If you could prove they did something awful like kill people, maim them, or deprive people of food for not converting, or things like that, and then said you blamed Christianity or Christian teachings for it, I could again point out how that doesn't work for logical reasons alone, if not more reasons. My main arguments in this thread are not based even on verses or my beliefs, but on how truth and logic and critical thinking work, with a balance of reason.
When I asked for proof of people denying history, I pretty much knew it wouldn't be provided, but if that was an oversight on my own or your part, do show it. I don't find any value in denying facts or history. I do find it to be harmful when people just say things and make up history or give distortions of it in order to just put whole groups of people down. That is usually when you see me ask for proof. It is assuming the best about the person that they are saying something for good reasons, not assuming the worst which would be easy with what I have seen in the past on these forums.
Anyone should have the right to ask for reasoning or facts in these forums which are largely discussing ideas about all kinds of issues often involving facts. I have seen enough people "cheat to win" as I put it earlier, that unfortunately you can't just assume everything stated is automatically true, especially if it sounds really off. In a place full of many people employing tactics, you can understand surely. The putting down is often subtle to those asking for such back up, but it is not missed by those it is intended for. It is part of why many consider these forums a rather hostile environment for those that are not on the "right" side, or defending the right side. People respond in all sorts of ways to such situations.
Thanks for responding.
And that all sounds very reasonable, except that you say that atrocities aren't committed by Christians (Christianity) then you say you won't say who is a Christian or not.
That really doesn't work.
Then you say that Christianity isn't responsible, yet Christianity is the governing force-- literally the governing force--behind some of these atrocities.
Christianity is a religion. That religion is made up of Christians. When the Church... which is the governing body of that religion does something then it is Christianity that does it.
You can't separate it... Sorry.
We've had this conversation about missionaries before, and how they have wiped out entire villages just by doing God's work, straight from the bible. Not purposely, not with malice... just by trying to convert. Whole villages dead.
Christianity did that because without those teachings directly from the Bible, those missionaries wouldn't have been in those villages. Those people would be alive and living happily... or at least their offspring would be.
Now, does that mean that the Bible is evil? No. Does that mean that Christians are evil... No. Does that mean that Christianity is evil? No.
What it DOES mean is if missionaries keep doing it (Which they do) then they are consciously choosing to kill people in an effort to spread their religion. And they have the blessing, even the encouragement, of the Bible, Christ, The Church, Christianity, Christians and every other way you would like to put it, to do it.
THAT kind of thing is where the danger of playing semantics to not have to carry the burden of responsibility for your own faith comes in. Which is what you are doing.
To be honest, I didn't read all the posts between you and wilderness, because the council of Nicaea has it's own sins to account for in my mind. The addition or subtraction of books from the Bible being the very least of my concerns. You brought me into the conversation by assuming that a post was directed at you, when it wasn't... then assuming that it related to something you said.... which it didn't.
My main argument was the nastiness that came from Phoenix when I pointed out that you had to first accept Christian principles/theology to worship Satan. Which is absolutely logical and completely true.
Pagans don't worship Satan because Satan isn't a part of their theology. He is a CHRISTIAN deity. Therefore, like it or not, you must believe in the CHRISTIAN bible to worship him. Pagans knew so such thing as Satan before the Church introduced him. The don't worship him now, nor did they ever. If they did, the wouldn't be pagans.
I'm sure someone is going to try to find a way to argue with that. It should be fun watching them explain it.
I actually never said that atrocities aren't committed by Christians. If I did and just don't recall it, please do show that and I will stand corrected. So then you DO think my comment sounds very reasonable, as you said, "except for..." the thing I didn't say. We are getting somewhere! You are right that it wouldn't work if I had said it, but that isn't my view, and not what I have expressed. I am well aware of history.
I think part of the disconnect between what you and I think are how we define what Christianity even IS. It is a logical impossibility for one thing to be evil and good at the same time. I maintain that it is a good thing that I define it by the teachings of Jesus Christ. Others like to define it by the atrocities committed by people, and as I have shared my reasons why, I don't think its a reasonable way to reason.
I just differ with you on your reasoning, because Churches can and have gotten things horribly wrong as we have seen. I actually have very good reasons for defaulting to the teachings of Christ being a good measuring rod. It isn't something I just came up with one day.
No one that is supporting the notion of disagreeing with me would like the tables turned on them in this regard. If we all thought and lived like what you are suggesting it true, bad things could come from that. Whole groups of people could be demonized (which is often part of the point and goal, and what Jesus knew would be coming anyway, the maltreatment) and lumped in with murderers and torturers, etc.
Whatever arguments are given need to be fair and good arguments, not ones filled with fallacies. If they have fallacies, they can be pointed out in "like" scenarios where it shows we actually know better. Sometimes how we live proves the points we sometimes try to deny.
Much is coming back to mind now. I didn't assume anything about whether or not you were talking about me actually. I was calling you out on some thing that you said were said that weren't said. That was all that was. I am not part of lots of threads, just this one, and think I have seen most if not all the posts. You were ascribing some things that didn't happen, that was the only reason I jumped in.
I disagree about Satan being a deity, but that is fine. There may be some teaching out there that suggest that, but I am not aware of it. I take deity to be a god in this context. As for true Satan worshipers, I had a close friend that was one. She knew about it all full well. She just openly chose Satan's side. She knew her bible, she knew Jesus' teachings. They don't have to be a Christian or a follower of Christ to know about him and follow Satan though. I believe God is real and revealed himself to humanity. Whatever is true is true. Evil is very obviously real and true, as is good. Much hinges on those things as we see.
If you recall, I didn't say those things if you are referring to the cults of Christianity posts we were talking about.
By definition, a cult of Christianity is a break off, they are admitting very serious differences and added on teachings TO traditional Christianity. In this thread, Jehovah's witnesses came up for instance. I do part ways with them and they do with me, and I did notice your further put downs of me and maybe others here by saying that I am claiming to be some kind of special or particular kind of Christian... That is not the case at all. The facts are the point here. They differ very much, they will be the first to say. So when we get talking about the details in these threads, that does matter. I did not say they weren't Christians, if you are talking about me. That would be untrue. Which would be more of what I am talking about.
I choose to be a simple version of Christianity, and that is my personal choice. I never engage in playing "God" about saying who is and who isn't a Christian, as I can't possibly know. Please ask if you are unclear before further accusing, thank you.
MY put downs of you??!! I have been very careful not to come out with put downs of you! If you have read that into any of my posts that you have badly misunderstood what I said.
Ocean, you are, with this post, falling into the same trap that others have when they vilify other sects. You speak as if modern Christians are "traditional", but nothing could be farther from the truth. "Traditional" Christians plundered and pillaged the Muslims of the middle east. "Traditional" Christians tortured uncounted people to death in the inquisition and murdered a great many "witches" a little later. Early "traditional" Christians in the Americas deliberately murdered uncounted Indians and forced "conversion" of even more. The Puritans raided their nearby (European) neighbors because they were dancing and pillaged their village.
"Traditional" Christians have always worked under a "If you're not with me you're against me" umbrella, demanding that everyone around bow to their god. Those that didn't...well, the witch fires were always waiting. Of the inquisition. Even today the "traditional" Christians are the ones murdering abortion doctors and gays and they are the ones demanding schools teach that their god created the universe.
Are you sure you want to be classified with the "traditional" Christians?
I don't see anyone here accusing you of using the "not a real Christian" defense of Christianity, just noting that it is very common to hear. You are, and I suspect have been, taking very generalized comments to be personal. They aren't.
Finally, I DO see you as a rather special Christian; one that accepts others for what they are and without judgement. In my experience that is very rare.
Were you basing that comment on what we talked about? I thought it was for me as we were the only ones talking about cults and then you brought up sects of Christianity. If that wasn't alluding to me, then I am surprised, but ok. I took that to be alluding to our discussions we had just had, even though you were responding to someone else. I could very well be mistaken there, and would just then be confused as who you were referring to that you think might have said something like that. I didn't say those things, I know.
No, it was in reply to Melissa's comment that Christianity being smeared was a most horrible thing, but perfectly fine to smear Pagan religions.
It was intended to add that those smearing the pagan religions are often the very same people smearing specific sects of Christianity as well. Only their narrow view is acceptable; it comes back that that (whisper it) H word Melissa referenced somewhere in this mass of verbiage.
You said, "Worse, it still is. Mormons aren't Christian. Catholics aren't Christian. JW's aren't Christian. The list is endless of sects that aren't Christian - all you need to do is find the "right" Christian to ask, and there are some right here on HP."
Then my mistake that it seemed it was for me or others in this Halloween thread. This was just the one post that comes to mind. The sarcasm about finding the right Christian to ask was for other Christians on Hubpages and not in this thread? Hope you don't mind my asking... never hurts to be clear, and I wasn't clear, lol.
One minute Jesus is a fabrication of Jews or Romans. The next minute they will suddenly admit that early Christians were killed, they fed Christians to the lions, very early on they had to deny Christ or die.... But that is all okay because suddenly that is just the way things were back then. All of a sudden history should be in context...But Christians dont get that free pass, nor would tens of thousands of the earliest Jewish Christians that were killed - be killed over a fabrication.
They have absolutely no clue about history or canonization to speak intelligently about the subjects, that is obvious, They dont even seem to have a good search engine.
They will claim that instead of searching for spice routes or gold, that ships sent to the new world were on exclusive mission trips, and that Aztecs or Incas or anyone like that were docile dodo birds instead of cultures that would carve a human heart out of a chest with an obsidian knife.
They live in anti-christian world.
Truth backs itself up easily with facts and reasoning, and needs no game playing or cheating to support itself. As for me, I am not always right, and always on the ongoing search for what is true. Truth matters, and I DO find that whatever is actually TRUE it is the easiest position to defend in a literal sense.
Since I believe that to be the case, that is when I set out to test my beliefs the hardest of all. I take to heart the accusations and judgements made on me or my beliefs to see if they are true. Could the smears be true? Could what I believe be a lie?
Life is too precious and short to believe a lie and for bad reasons. Some of what you describe are some of the biggest evidences, when nothing else explains the response seen to what should be just another worldview among many to people that don't believe in religion. What is true WOULD get that kind of heat, and Jesus predicted it. False things, not so much.
Also, if and when you show the post you are referring to about it being perfectly fine to smear pagans, please know that I don't think it is ok to do that either. It is part of what I personally believe. So it isn't contingent on the proof, just wanted to see what you are basing that comment on.
All of us think the bad things are bad though, so would Jesus, so would his disciples, so would you.
I have tried and tried to get people to see what the disconnect is here. There is no denying there IS one. Some here want to lay blame not on the people that did it, but their worldview, on Christianity. Can you draw from Christian teachings anywhere, teachings that would lead to such things from Jesus, or not? Of course not. So something more was in play.
Also, no comment on all the good that has been done in the name of Christianity, no credit done there, or the ongoing good done even today? If someone can't see this treatment of Christianity for what it is, then how else could anyone help them? It would be a need to feed the personally held belief that Christianity is bad at its core. I was trying to point out how it is actually inherently good at its core, trying to point out many anti Christians pleas for morality to take take place, or wishing it had other than what did at times.
Jesus was a good guy, and was treated horribly. There were reasons for that, and for his predictions that his followers would be treated the same way. I am trying to point out that normal people that just don't believe in Christianity, would never treat it like they do. Perhaps unless it is absolutely real and that that fact is kind of the real underlying issue and all that comes with it. It just isn't normal for people to seem to hate an inherently, very good thing. Unless there is something very real, something more going on. We all ought to ask ourselves questions like that, like what would explain this strange, out of the ordinary behavior? Why not go after all religions equally? What is TRULY especially so awful about Christianity, especially if it isn't true? Anyone can point out a person that did awful things, that went against their Christian beliefs to do so.... It makes the point, in part!
Jesus was a good guy?? You have GOT to be kidding - that ragtag carpenter pretend holy man preached the worst heresy possible. So saith the Jews of the time, anyway.
The point is that there are always at least two sides, and that it takes all sides to make up Christianity. Accept that the religion has done great evil in God's name, that it continues to do so, and work to eliminate it. Quite crying "Persecution!" when it is pointed out and instead work to end abuse in God's name.
So, some books were excluded so lets just make up a story?
According to Antiochus Strategos, a 7th-century monk in Palestine, shortly after the Persian army entered Jerusalem in 614, unprecedented looting and sacrilege took place. Church after church was burned down alongside the innumerable Christian artifacts, which were stolen or damaged by the ensuing arson. Given that Khosrau II generally practiced religious tolerance and did deem Christians respectfully, it is not known why Shahrbaraz ordered such a massacre. One reason could simply have been Shahrbaraz's rage at the resistance that had been offered by Jerusalem's Christian populace. Accounts from early Christian chroniclers suggest that 26,000 Jewish rebels entered the streets of the city. Some Jerusalem Christians were taken captive, gathered together and murdered in mass by Jews. The Greek historian Antiochus Strategos writes that captive Christians were gathered near Mamilla reservoir and the Jews offered to help them escape death if they "become Jews and deny Christ". The Christian captives refused, and the Jews in anger had purchased the Christians from Persians and massacred them on spot. Antiochus writes: Then the Jews... as of old they bought the Lord from the Jews with silver, so they purchased Christians out of the reservoir; for they gave the Persians silver, and they bought a Christian and slew him like a sheep.
According to Antiochus, the total Christian death toll was 66,509, of which 24,518 corpses were found at Mamilla, many more than were found anywhere else in the city. Other manuscripts suggest less where found at Mamilla 4518 or 4618. Other sources give a figure of 60,000 slain. The Jews destroyed the Christian churches and the monasteries, books were burnt and monks and priests killed. According to Israeli archeologists, there was no destruction of churches. A mass burial grave at Mamilla cave was discovered in 1989 by Israeli archeologist Ronny Reich.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecutio … rsian_Wars
Yep - people of the times, Christian, Jew, Pagan or Roman, did not have the civilized morality set we enjoy today. They fed Christians to the lions, crucified Jews, etc. (Actually the pagans were probably the best of the bunch!)
Your point? A childish response to having someone point early Christians were not perfect people? Or was that a story you made up yourself in a silly reaction to learning books were left out of the bible in an effort to compromise between many sects? I took it as something you think is true, but I could be wrong...
The difference is I actually sourced the post. You went along with a smear that you admitted you were ignorant of, if it were true or not and that if had been about Jews, you would be guilty of anti-Semitism. But since it was about Christians you went along with it.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
(Hint: You don't need to be a Jewish person to be of the Jewish faith.)
Sorry, Phoenix. If you cannot accept an honest apology as to calling that book "all true" it is time for me to bow out. There is nothing more for the two of us to discuss.
No need to apologize, you did not make up the wild story. The story was bogus on its own merits, NT books canonized or not, were not in 15-17 century French or Low German, they would have been in Koine. Understand? It would be like trying to get the word sushi out of Chinese characters, logograms whatever.
It does matter if the book is real or not, and how others here put down Christians, and not just in this thread, but over and over. It matters, the book, and all the other reasons for supposedly justifying the ongoing smears.
If you care about real put downs and bad treatment, please look at all posts fairly and equally, applying the same judgement. Then your eyes will be opened to maybe why not just one person is totally fed up with this ongoing bad treatment that is allowed here towards Christians in particular, and people of religion in general.
It isn't fun being called on lies, asking for back up. That isn't the same as trolling. You can't blame someone for asking others to stop putting people down over and over and over. I am sure you have seen it if you are fair at all, on many of these threads. I do observe that people are quick to pounce on people of religion and Christians in particular if they show one ounce of tone or frustration. They are expected to take the junk laying down, and I don't personally think that is right.
I wish for all of us peace, and truth and the true desire for both.
I absolutely see put downs on other threads. Just not much here, except for the posts of Phoenix.
The book; would you rather believe that early Christians were fooled into thinking a book from the devil was from God or believe that they came up with the inquisition and it's tortures all by themselves? Which puts early Christians in the worst light?
Other "lies" - I haven't noticed any denigrating Christians. There have been quite a few going the other way, though.
What book is that?
You said QUOTE: All true.
But now you say : its the first you heard about it?
Now the stories are changing. Well, which is it? It's all true or yall don't know what yall are talking about?
And did you know that at the Council of Nicea, in about the year 325 or so--there were removed from the 'bible' more books than now currently exist within that tome??!! Among those books was the book of Massachai, which instructed priests, etc. in the details of how to murder, torture, rape, pillage, and otherwise violently intimidate others into "believing" as the church wanted them to? Yes, it is true--and what remains of that book is its contribution as the root of our modern word, "massacre."
How do I know? Because my husband is a licensed minister,
Back it up. Or shut up
Are you going to be okay Wilderness? Need a whaaambulance? Maybe yall should have thought twice about mocking a Jehovahs Witness?
It must be rather sad to live in the world of a paranoid.
Although you have consistently ridiculed and mocked everyone else, not a soul has mocked you OR your mythology.
The idea that pagans celebrated demons and the devil maybe, but then anyone that thinks a pagan worshiped something they've never heard of deserves a little mocking.
I would tend to agree with that. That is kind of how I have come to look at it. That said, Halloween, if it WERE to be a calling out of the dead, or some kind of divination or any kind of "truly bad thing" , TO a particular person..... THEN to them it perhaps would be bad to be involved in that thing. I am meaning to be sensitive to people that might really think those things. So I would respect their right to say no to Halloween for both them and their families.
Like for me, when my kids used to dress up, I likely wouldn't have let them dress up with masks that look like blood is pouring over it, or an ax murderer, or something very evil. Its tough for kids in a way, as being allowed to dress up as a doctor or policeman, or even a ghost in a sheet wouldn't be so bad. They have kids coming to their door knocking for candy, and they don't get to participate in it. I think there is a middle ground.
I have heard of people kind of almost scaring kids a little by trying to explain a fairly serious concept about Halloween and how evil it can be, etc. I also always wanted to be cautious and safe, since there are truly some cooks out on Halloween.
Halloween began in Scotland as a way to chase away evil spirits, not to celebrate them.
While the people that lived in Scotland before Christ had a celebration (Samhain) on or about that date, it wasn't about chasing away evil spirits. It was about helping the newly dead that year cross over into the spirit world. It was about the end of the harvest season and the end of the year as well (they didn't use the Roman calendar), and that's when the doorway between worlds is open, allowing the dead to cross.
It was other things, too, but chasing away evil spirits was not one of them.
Pope Boniface IV consecrated the Pantheon on May 13, 609 and the anniversary of that day was declared to be in remembrance of the churches martyrs; it became "All Saints Day". In the next century Pope Gregory III took note of the problem with Celts (Samhain and dragging their feet in converting to Christianity) and changed the date of celebration to Nov. 1. and the evening prior to All Saints Day became "Hallow's Eve". In the 10th century Abbot Odela added Nov. 2 as "All Souls Day" and the transformation was complete, even providing a name; "Hallow's Even" became "Halloween" over the centuries. Halloween thus "began" in the halls of the Catholic Church in response to Pagans that liked their Samhain celebration.
I don't over think this stuff. To me, Halloween is just about pumpkins, cool lighting, costumes, fun and candy. When I was a kid, it was definitely about the CANDY! Lots of people like dressing up...it's just fun...Halloween parties are also fun to plan....I'd rather focus on the positives and not get all weird over stuff.
Halloween has many roots-- some of them are about fearing/warding off evil spirits, others are about simply celebrating and having fun. The origins (not the many roots, but the actual origins) of Halloween as we know it today is America in the 1800s, it was a considered a fun time for spooky stories and partying.
Any celebration is what you make of it-- it's pretty apparent that 99% of Halloween revelers have nothing to do with devils or demons, and are just having fun, dressing up and getting candy, having parties, or watching horror movies, etc. Seems to me to accuse them of 'evil' and 'devil/demon worship' is an unfair accusation, totally misrepresenting both what they do and their intentions. That's dishonest.
Halloween is INDEED one of my FAVORITE holidays. What is better than to stay home and cuddle up with some, nice, and utterly lovely horror fiction or horror movies to watch while drinking a hot Black Russian and having steak tartare garnished with horseradish sauce and arugula salad.
Better yet, instead of a horror movie, let's listen to some Nox Arcana or Midnight Syndicate. They have LOVELY horror themed music for all to enjoy on HALLOWS NIGHT...............
Actually, the day known as Halloween originated long before Christianity, in the ancient pagan world. They used divination because the veils between this world and the afterlife is much thinner then, so it's easier for communication purposes.
What an interesting statement... Could you link that please? I'd love to read the original source.
It's true. During the period at the end of the year (Oct 31) the veil between the worlds thins and crossing between the worlds is much easier. People expected their ancestors that had died during the year to finally be able to cross over, but there was also some trouble as less desirable...ghosts... came out to cause mischief.
The Druids (Pagan priests) used the period to facilitate communication with the dead, which included learning what the future held.
Much later the divination was transformed to such things as tossing apple peels on the floor (they might spell out the name of your future husband) or hazlenuts into the fire (write names on each nut; the one that burned rather than popped would be that future husband.)
Giant bonfires were lit and home hearth fires put out - a big deal without matches. Coals from the bonfire were carried home to relight the home fire, sometimes in hollowed out turnips or other vegetables.
It was actually the Church that formed "Halloween", though - a modification of "Hallows Eve". The pagans celebrated Samhain.
I did a lot of research for a hub I wrote on Halloween last year - it was most interesting.
I always thought of Samhainn as a day of communication rather than a day of divination. I'm not sure the dead know any more of the future than the living. Divination, imho, was always more of a Beltane thing.. Beltane looked forward... Samhainn looked backwards.
*shrug* There is little in modern religion that makes sense, either - why would you expect the worship of Druids to?
Presumably the dead exist outside of time; that visit the future as easily as the past and present. Or maybe they had other ideas - who knows?
Danise, who is a guess on my page, agrees that Halloween was not created by Christians. She went on to state, "History, proves that Halloween had its beginning long before Christianity came into existence. Halloween, has been traced back to 600 BCE, to the Ancient Celts of Britain and Ireland. The Halloween holiday has perpetuated a tradition that is displeasing to God. Holidays such as Halloween and numerous other holidays like it, have close connections with the occult, throughout the centuries."
Danise, concluded that, "Many have tried to put a Christian mask on this pagan religion, pagan rites or tradition. Based on Psalms 97:10, true followers of Christ have nothing in common with darkness. We are admonished, "O you lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad."' (New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures) To obtain a free copy of the Awake magazine entitled, "The Truth About Halloween," go to www.jw.org.
fifth link to that website in one thread... reported as spam.
Halloween > All Hallow's Eve > the night before All Hallow's > the night before All Saints Day.
All Saints Day was created in the year 609 by Pope Boniface IV as a Holy Day of Obligation in the Catholic Church. The date matched the date of the consecration of the Pantheon and was very carefully chosen to fall on the day of Samhain, the traditional New Years Day of the pagans.
So tell us again how "Halloween" (as opposed to "Samhain") is not a Christian holiday?
I had a Jehovah witness explain Halloween to me. They claim it started as a festival to mourn the dead lost in the flood. Silly.
If you don't celebrate satan and his demons, then it isn't about them. If you do celebrate them, I suppose it is.
Life is what you make of it.
Danise, responded to the discussion whether Christians created Halloween?
No. In fact scholars say Halloween's roots go back to a time long before Christianity. The era when ancient Celts inhabited Britain and Ireland on the full moon, was closer to November 1st. They celebrated the festival Samhain meaning summer's end. They also believed that during Samhain, the veil between human and the supernatural world was parted and that spirits both good and evil roamed the earth to their homes and families. They would put food and drink out for their ghostly visitors in hopes of appeasing them and warding off misfortune. Celebrations like Halloween, are in conflict with what the Bible teaches based on James 1:13 which says, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (The New Testament And The Book of Psalms, King James Version)
It seems to me many Christians are in personal conflict. Their church tells them that Satan and his demons are out to steal from them, kill them and destroy them. Thus they are taught to live in fear. But then they also have drummed into them that 'he that is in them is greater than he that is in the World'. Still others tell them that they can command demons to do this or that in Jesus name. So they walk a fine balance of fear and courage, and spend much of their lives trying to work out if misfortune came from satan. If they conclude it did then much wailing, binding and loosening helps them to cope with the fear and feel a bit better. Of course when events are looked at logically then they can see this ideology makes no sense. Nevertheless they've been told what they've been told and so they concoct convoluted arguments about free will, satan's boundaries, blah blah blah.
What wretched lives.
The church continues to sow fear about Satan at such times as Halloween. The church perpetuates ignorance about this pagan festival with myths and stories and despite Christians being directed to historical sources to the contrary, they prefer to cling to the myths rather than embrace the facts.
I've also never understood the preference to fear Celtic paganism as opposed to say Ancient Greek or Roman. Many Christians have no fear of Zeus or Apollo, regarding these things a silly ideas, yet there seems to be a fear that real demons populate Celtic paganism. I'm also not aware of them fearing Native American or Australian Aboriginal belief systems, but they do fear African shamanism. Perhaps the differences are due to Church propaganda; where the Church historically sought to convert and spread its empire, the native beliefs were demonised all the more. Romans and Greeks were embraced and their practices and festivals assimilated, thus the absence of fear.
So to answer the question; no there are no demons involved except in the imagination of the Church. Halloween is nothing more than a cynical American corporate style marketing opportunity to relieve parents of their hard earned cash.
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