All of the so-called "evidences" for evolution theory are essentially "fluff" evidences that reveal NOTHING about the origins of life. To illustrate, let's say I falsely asserted that a particular woman had once been a boy during childhood. I then discovered and presented various "evidences" consistent with my false claim - the woman had in fact worn pants during childhood EXACTLY as we'd expect if she had been a boy; she wore her hair short as she most likely would have; she did not play with dolls as a child and wore no make-up as a teenager; and as we'd expect, she played various sports. It would be foolish to accept the false claim about the woman based on consistent findings or "evidences" that in reality COULD NOT prove the woman had once been a boy. In the same way, the claimed "evidences" for evolution theory, while consistent with the theory, in reality demonstrate NOTHING about the origins of life. We do in fact see changes in creation resulting from mutations, adaptations, etc.; we also do have great similarities in our genetic makeup to animals (not surprising, since we share a common Creator and since such similarities are to our benefit whether for medical purposes or simply the companionship of a beloved pet); we do find bones and skulls of all kinds of creatures known and unknown to us, and we can piece these together, line them up in pictures and/or draw theorized transitions from them, attempting to make people "see" and believe the theory. But just as our consistent and supposedly revealing evidences regarding the woman did not and could not actually prove she had once been a boy, as she had in fact never been a boy, so also none of the evolutionist's so-called "evidences" can ever IN TRUTH prove the theory's claim or implication that there is no Creator God because in truth God exists! Without the Spirit, no one will come to a saving knowledge of the Lord of the universe, and without the invention of time travel, the evolutionist can make no VALID claim to have observed, demonstrated or "proven" evolution theory's claim about the origins of life; therefore, both require FAITH beyond the presently seen in the natural realm.
You know, at some point, making repetitive threads about the same topic, saying the same thing becomes spam. There were several other threads open on this subject, as you know because you made them. Why pollute the boards with several threads on about the same thing? That's pretty rude.
Might I suggest you find a dictionary and look up the term 'irony'.
Did you intend to shout your ignorance from the rooftops that way? Or was it an accident somehow, that your fingers typed such lies?
The theory of evolution does NOT include any thoughts about the origin of life. No hypothesis, no theorizing, no discussion at all.
Only the believers, ignorant of the subject but hating it without knowing the first thing about it, make such claims. Strongly suggest you learn at least the basics of the subject if you wish to discuss it as making such silly claims does nothing for your credibility.
Wilderness: "Evolution encompasses a wide range of phenomena: from the emergence of major lineages, to mass extinctions, to the evolution of antibiotic resistant bacteria in hospitals today. However, within the field of evolutionary biology, the origin of life is of special interest because it addresses the fundamental question of where we (and all living things) came from." (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/e … life.shtml)
Did you know:
- Diarrhoeal disease is the second leading cause of death in children under five years old.
- Each year Diarrhoea kills over 1 million children under five.
- It is both preventable and treatable.
If your Christ were here now, what do you think he would want you to expend your energies on? Criticizing the theory of evolution, or asking: why are we allowing 760,000 children to die of something that is preventable and treatable? What are the barriers preventing treatments from reaching the people who need of them? What are the root causes of the problem? What can be done about it? What is being done about it, and by whom? Can I help? Most people think the answer to that question is no, but it's usually yes.
I could be wrong. Christ might not want you to use your talent for questioning in this way (you know more about your faith than I do), but if so, then based on what I know of Christianity, I do not recognize the picture of Christ you are painting. You and I cannot prove or refute the theory of evolution (assuming you are not an evolutionary biologist) but we can put our curiosity to good use questioning how we can make a difference to real issues.
An example of how charity and private sector are working in partnership to help.
+1 Damn fine post, Don. I really like the way you used well defined words to communicate your thoughts effectively and succinctly.
Don W: What is of more value - eternal life or momentary life on earth? If the devil blinds the eyes of the masses so that the falsehoods within evolution theory become stumbling blocks to belief in the true God and his Word, it is not the believer who suffers, but the one who might have believed if not for the deception. It is the nonbelievers eternal life that is at stake. How can eternity be compared to that which is just a breath?
God cares greatly about those who are hurting and sends servants who are able to help them. I am not your servant, but a servant of the Lord, and you are not in a position to judge someone else's servant. I'll go where he sends me.
That's like asking what one prefers to ride, a horse or a unicorn. One is part of reality while the other has never been shown to be exist or be valid in any way.
Again, your using concepts such as the devil and eternal life as your argument, but you nor anyone else can validate those concepts in any way. They are meaningless in light of reality.
So, you believe you're special in that God sent you here to tell us all these things? Few if any here are going to take you seriously when you say such things.
All people are special because all people are created uniquely. God has various uses for various people, and he'll use them as he pleases.
Good, so can we now forget about all this free will nonsense ?
Not really: "as he pleases" always ends up meaning as the person pleases somehow. They want to evangelize; god suddenly needs an evangelist. They want to brow beat a specific person (relative perhaps); god needs someone to do that. They want to bash gays a bit; god suddenly needs someone to tell the world gays are evil.
So, still need free will to do what "god" says needs doing.
So god has sent you to refute evolutionary theory so that "the masses" can be saved. That sounds like a very important mission. I can see why combating diarrhea might not seem quite as glamorous. But here's the thing, there is nothing in the theory of evolution that is anti-Christian. There are evolutionary biologists who are Christians.
It's also doubtful that evolution is very high up on the list of things that stop people believing in god. I don't know anyone for whom evolution is the main stumbling block to believing in god. Do you? You are on a forum with lots of people who don't share your belief. Why not take the opportunity to ask them why they don't believe in god, rather than focusing on something that seems more important to some Christians that it does to "nonbelievers". Wouldn't understanding the real stumbling blocks help you on your mission?
CJCJ Simonelli beat me to an answer to your question, Don, but gave the same one I would have.
Ignorance is necessary to promote belief, or at least belief such as some profess to have. Accordingly, and to save their immortal souls from Hell, it is far more important to encourage ignorance to it is to "encourage" life.
I do not see any conflict between evolution and faith. Evolution pertains to the past, the very deep past, and its resulting manifestations. It's a beautiful thing. Faith, to me, is a present thing, day to day living. It's a beautiful thing.
evolution - that is change and speciation over time does not address the origins of life, therefore it's not ironic that it doesn't sufficiently address it. You're thinking of something else. Abiogenesis, perhaps. Maybe you should read up on terms and definitions prior to spouting nonsense. Just a thought.
Secondly - is your chosen method of dialogue to start one thread, realize that you're completely outnumbered and out-informed and then abandon it to start the very same thread all over again with a few different words thrown in? Why not just admit your error, learn what you're talking about and keep the conversation going, rather than start multiple threads about the same subject that you have now clearly demonstrated repeatedly that you know absolutely nothing about that which you're speaking?
Please see my reply to Wilderness's post regarding evolution's interest in the origins of life. There are truths within evolution theory but they are mixed with falsehoods that are intended to remove the Creator from the picture. I am continuing on each of the related threads. I knew going into this that those who would respond would be primarily atheists and/or those who deny the Word of God. In fact, I've been warned that God's servants have had to "shake the dust" from their feet and move on. On one previous forum (not one I had started) I was instructed by God to do exactly that. I have not yet been so instructed on these related threads which I am currently active on. I am about to post an additional related one. I am not here to please you or anyone else; "If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of the Lord". But there are those who will hear God's truth reading the HUB forums; God will not call them to respond primarily for their own protection. I'll take the abuse on here if it provides light to anyone at all.
And you might read EncephaloiDead's reply to you as he is quite right. While abiogenesis is a part of biology (as is evolution) it is not addressed in the theory of evolution.
Or Psyche's answer from yesterday, saying the same thing.
In other words, God's servants get a crushing defeat and leave with their tales between their legs.
Hearing voices could be a sign of a much deeper, and serious issue.
There are others on here who are servant's of God as well. Maybe God instructed them to tell you to stop this nonsense.
Wow, so God doesn't know anything about evolution, either? And, rather than dealing with His ignorance Himself, He is sending you along to show us His ignorance?
That's very odd indeed. Perhaps, the next time you talk to God, ask Him to join up here so we can educate Him on the Theory of Evolution.
I think perhaps we should (for the sake of augment) assume that if her God exists, he understands that evolution doesn't attempt to explain the origin of life on earth. That being said and agreed with we are left with only a few explanations for her statements.
1. She is consciously lying for Jesus.
2. She is in need of some imediate help as the voices in her head are telling her to do and say things and she is responding to the voices.
I don't know - I did a google search yesterday and found dozens of apologetics sites saying that abiogenesis was a part of evolution as well.
That's obviously where she's getting her information - Christian sites bashing something they know nothing about - and thus it's not so much a matter of consciously lying OR voices. Just simple ignorance and a refusal to learn. Not uncommon - Christian refusal to learn goes back even beyond Galileo, who was imprisoned for life for teaching truth as it "proved" the church wrong. Nothing new about burying the head in the sand.
Okay, that's fair enough, perhaps she is simply ignorant, but that doesn't explain the voices in her head telling her what God's plan for her is. So I'll add a third option.
3. She has been mislead by other Christians lying for Jesus and is either lying about the voices in her head as a way to give credence to her stories or she needs some immediate help as she is responding to voices in her head.
Not sure if those "voices" are merely her own conscience (rather defective) and imagination (rather active) or actual voices. I do recall seeing some believer saying they heard voices, without sound, inside their head, but have no idea what that means as you don't "hear" without sound.
Still, even if it is nothing more than a made up conversation with an invisible friend, she is a little old (if legal to post here) to be putting real credence to such a conversation. While not uncommon for most children, people should outgrow that fantasy in just a few years.
Evolution does not even address our origin so your entire rant is bogus. Abiogenisis is what addresses our origin and that would be pre-evolution by natural selection.In other words before evolution.
That is why so many Christians except the fundamentalist literalalists of the US do accept evolution. So please get an education before spouting off about something you do not understand and have not taken the time to actually learn about.
Okay, people, this is the source of the miscommunication (Wildnerness, you touched on it): In the literature, the majority of evolutionists are making the distinction between abiogenesis and evolution, and "origins of life" refers strictly to the initial origin. The majority of creationists are lumping the two together and "origins of life" refers to longer-term beginnings, not just the singular origin, so that it includes that which does in fact fall under evolution theory and not just abiogenesis. Perhaps my work could and/or should be revised to "Casting Down Imaginations within Evolution and Abiogenesis Theories." The truth remains that while there are the acknowledged truths in evolution theory, there are also dangerous imaginations within both evolution and abiogenesis theories.
Taken from the WIKIPEDIA, this would be the truth within Evolution Theory: There is in fact a "change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations."
Also taken from the WIKIPEDIA, here would be a fantastical conclusion within Evolution Theory: "All life on Earth is descended from a last universal ancestor...Repeated speciation and the divergence of life can be inferred from shared sets of biochemical and morphological traits, or by shared DNA sequences." Stated again in another place as, "The similarities between all present-day organisms indicate the presence of a common ancestor from which all known species have through the process of evolution." NO WE CANNOT "infer" a common ancestor based on similarities or shared traits; that is ABSOLUTELY STUPID! We share a COMMON CREATOR and we can make NO INFERENCE from the FLUFF EVIDENCES OF SIMILARITIES AMONGST SPECIES ANYMORE THAN WE COULD ASSUME OUR WOMAN HAD ONCE BEEN A BOY AS INFERRED BY OUR EQUALLY MEANINGLESS FINDINGS!
okay, few points.
1. Do you think wikepedia is a good source for reliable scientifically intense information?
2. Why the blue blazes are you shouting? Does it make your point any more valid? not really.
3. There is a reason that creationists lump abiogenesis in with evolution - they're using dishonest tactics to try and get evolution to say something that it doesn't say in order to keep believers at odds with proven, scientific facts and keep them in the dark. If you want information about evolution, you have to look to a source that isn't automatically biased towards misinformation.
Bit of advice:
Read a science book or go to a natural sciences museum. They won't shout at you, and you may learn something.
Also, I love fencing. There ya go.
The Creationists are probably seeing the two as connected on some deeper level. You are missing the deeper points and truths - within evolution theory are untrue imaginations (with or without abiogenesis). The inferences mentioned in the WIKIPEDIA are made throughout the evolution literature and by those of you posting on here. The inferences do not represent good science or good logic. The truths all remain the truths, and the falsehoods (i.e., that which contradicts the Word of God) all remain fantasy. What's going on here is the equivalent of an English teacher correcting grammar. My grammar aint gotta be good for my points to be essentially correct and true. I can fix my "grammar" if need be and thank you for helping me make a stronger argument for the truth. The truth will always remain the truth!
And regarding certain comments, I am posting under the categories - Religion - Christianity, Jesus and the Bible - Intelligent Design. So considering the category I'm under, what's up with all this bullying and "troll" behavior?
I'm bullying you by asking questions? I'm not calling you names. I'm not insulting you personally. I'm criticizing your posts, which are beliefs and ideas - and beliefs and ideas are not the least bit immune from criticism. Beliefs do not have feelings to be offended with. It seems like you're taking disagreement a bit too personally. It's hilarious. Kind of like these:
also...none of your points have been "essentially correct" in any sense of the term.
Don't pretend you've not seen the bullying going on around here - I've even been told I'm responsible for molested children, as if that somehow related to anything I've been saying. The disagreement with the ideas is one thing, but after awhile many of the forums disintegrate into mocking, hateful, accusatory, personally insulting, slanderous bullying!
Where are the men of honor? Or does that go out the window when you deny your Creator God and lose his ways?
First, I'm not a man, so I don't know what you're talking about.
Secondly, proof. If someone is attacking you personally, they would be banned for breaking forum rules. I don't see that happening. At all.
Then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you missed those posts. And I was specifically referring to several people in my comment about men of honor.
Post the comments then. Quote them. prove it. I don't just take people's words as factual on faith.
You are welcome to review the comments on all the posts if you so think it is worth the time; I do not, and I don't feel compelled to prove it to you, so I will not be going through and quoting anyone. Oh, btw since I am a delusional liar as I'm told on here, maybe I only imagined and/or made up that I was told I was responsible for molested children and so on.
Okay, I have reviewed all of the comments. I saw no one call you a child molester. I saw no one call you any name at all. Since you are unwilling to quote the posts that you find fault with, I have no choice than to just assume that they didn't happen, since I certainly didn't see any, and you're trying to play the victim to no victimization whatsoever. Whatever floats your boat.
There are two possibilities going on here. Either you are deliberately falsifying what evolution says or is, or you're doing it accidentally. The difference I see here between you and me (at least on this topic, since our differences are too numerous to grasp) is that a) I don't start multiple forum threads on topics that I know next to nothing about, and b) If someone points out something that I've said that is incorrect, I learn from my mistake, read up on the subject as much as possible and try to learn what I'm talking about prior to talking about it. I don't see either of those behaviors from you.
I think that getting your information from creationist sources (most of which, mind you, would condemn mormonism as a false religion, since christian apologetics sources like creationwiki and answers in genesis are both fundamentalist christian organizations) which deliberately skew the facts and are inherently biased by nature is dangerous ground for you, because there are people here who actually UNDERSTAND what evolution says and how it works. These people have tried to explain it to you, and instead of conceding that you may need more research, you dig your heels in and keep repeating the same old nonsense that has already been corrected. Insisting something is true does not prove it is. It just proves an unwillingness to learn and grow. That doesn't say anything about the people attempting to converse with you, but it says a great deal about you.
I take it just as you missed the posts about me and my religion being responsible for the molested children, me being disgusting, the mocking posts, etc., that you also missed my post earlier today under the title "The evolution-pusher deceives when stating evolution is a fact". I've provided a revision based on the distinctions generally made in the field, so that the greater God-given truths are not lost in any misinformation. Thanks for your concern.
in order for there to be greater god-given truths, you would have to provide evidence that some such god existed and was handing out truths.
Let me break something to you, CJ. I'm not an atheist because of evolution. Even if you could disprove evolution TODAY (which you can't because you have repeatedly demonstrated that you only know enough about it to write pages and pages of false and easily corrected information) I would not automatically believe in your god. My atheism is not dependent on evolution. I'm an atheist because no one ever in thousands of years has sufficiently proven that a god exists. You can tell all of the stories about staying skinny despite poor eating habits all you want, but they're just stories unless they can be proven. Even if you can prove that you have stayed skinny, you would have to further demonstrate that it was because of god by eliminating all other possibilities and then providing evidence that it was indeed a god that did it. You can't do that, and I imagine that your inability to do that successfully is a big motivator behind your blatant falsehoods about evolution. You think that if you can create doubt in evolution (which isn't likely, because evolution isn't a belief) that people might turn to alternate solutions, up to and including a belief in god. That simply isn't the case. It doesn't work that way. So I don't know how you're trying to evangelize the masses who DO have a basis in scientific knowledge by making one mistaken post after another, but you may want to rethink your strategy.
So the believers of the world have decided that abiogenesis is the same study as evolution and therefore in disagreement with the bible and requires attack. The decision, of course, made by people that have nothing to do with either study, have no knowledge of either study and no inclination to learn anything in either field.
I understand. Completely.
You don't have to include abiogenesis at all. Evolution theory has within it fantastical conclusions as well that are not reached by good logic or good science - please see my post. The truth still remains that change alone is a fact, not the fantastical conclusions "inferred" from similarities amongst species.
Yes, DNA similarities are horribly misleading. I wish those damn lab technicians would stop reporting the findings. They are terrible people who are lying so people won't follow God.
It is the INFERENCE that the similarities MUST mean we evolved from a similar ancestor; the DNA similarities demonstrate absolutely nothing except DNA similarities!
Yeah, I sure wish I could lie about my histone sequence data in order to show a DNA-based phylogenetic tree that goes against every other published finding in Evolutionary Biology and become uber-famous….but, when I’d get caught (which would happen eventually), I’d have my degree(s) ripped from me and be banned from doing research for life.
Fantastical conclusions? What fantastical conclusions? That life diverges, evolves and becomes what it was not? We know that happens as we see it all the time.
You claim we cannot infer a common ancestor from DNA and other biological similarities - are you then an evolutionary biologist? Or just someone believing a fairy tale and using that belief to deny known facts? "Inferring", in other words, that a history written by ignorant goatherders thousands of years ago was biologically correct when they said man's rib was the source of woman?
Is there some other "fantastical conclusion" you don't like or is that it - that species change and may have come from a single source? One thing you might wish to look into is recent speculation that life may have formed multiple times - would that soothe your complaints that only a god can make a life?
Wilderness: Yes, there is much change within species and is even some limited speciation (such as a new "species" of flies). I don't care about anyone's "speculation"; that's the whole problem with all these ridiculous theories - they're all SPECULATING! Leave the facts as the facts and get rid of all this speculation!
God can create someone out of a rib by a "miracle" if he chooses; he was able to create a person in the first place and an entire universe, things that are much less "possible" by human or natural standards. Given all that exists, you either have a brilliant God or you have brilliant things that basically create themselves. One is true, the other is foolishness. To you the true one is foolishness because your eyes are still sealed and you do not yet have the Spirit. But I still believe you will, Wilderness, because you're still one I have a sense of urgency for and so I won't stop claiming your soul for Christ in full confidence that he will remove the seals from your eyes since he has promised to do whatever his children ask if it is according to his will, and since it is not his will that any perish, but that all come to repentance and a saving knowledge of truth. I've seen it happen and I believe it will for you also sooner or later! God bless you, Wilderness, in spite of your distaste for me at this time.
Life (living organisms) have been created in the lab from scratch many times without a need for a god. A good working knowledge of biology and chemistry what was all.
OK. Let us see your evidence that there was a God who created people. First produce the God, then prove that it was Him who created people. Then I'll drop this Evolution "nonsense"
Yet your God has never even had the power to merely show Himself. I'm no scientist....but...
Do you ever think that maybe it's those people with the spirit whose eyes are the REAL ones that are sealed?
Okay, you're starting to make some progress here. However, you need to explain why you think the similarities do not indicate common ancestor and why it is stupid. You only made that statement but you didn't explain why it is stupid. Just stating that we share a common creator is not a reason.
So, continue explaining that problem and we might just get somewhere with this discussion./
I agree that we do not come from "baboons, gorillas and more", but evolution within a species can not be denied and does not have to necessarily mean God did not create everything.
God's wonderful creation is a on going creating that only awes me more and more about His wonderful creation He created for His own Pleasure!
FIRST...Do you have any evidence that God exists? THEN....Do you have evidence that he created ANYTHING? I would make sure there was EVIDENCE before I started heaping all this praise upon a being that has never even shown any evidence of his OWN existence, let alone creating anything else.
He continually shows evidence through the Spirit to those whose spiritual eyes have been opened. It is God's Spirit that reveals God to us.
Well, I'm glad you've given up trying to murder real science with quasi-science and uneducated arguments quoted from sites that are essentially used car salesmen for Christ and have returned to pure evangilization and the internet equivalent of knocking on doors.
"Spiritual eyes" is just another word for the minds of hypnotized, delusional believers, who have been programmed through brainwashing. Hence believers will believe anything they are told....no matter how absurd it sounds. There is no "spirit" or God involved.....as neither even EXISTS in REALITY.
Again, there is no evidence of any SPIRITS or any GODS. Do you not understand that we can't have an honest debate unless we are honest? A nonexistent entity cannot provide PROOF of another nonexistent entity....hence there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to back up these psychotic claims.
Yes, Hendrika, as you say there is "microevolution" within species. "Evolution theory" steps beyond the facts and theorizes about that which cannot be proven - macroevolution over billions of years.
Amen, God be glorified!
Nicely put, as nothing answers the question "before that."
The origin of life is abiogenisis not evolution.
Saying evolution does not explain the origin of life is like saying cats are a very bad vegetable.
"Evolution theory's "fluff" evidences reveal nothing about our origins." translates into, "I have no concept of what I'm talking about due to my ignorance and mental laziness. I believe everything my poorly educated pastor tells me because they say it's true no matter how ridiculous."
Paul Wingert: You know, it's people like you who make me want to stay away from these forums. You are so incredibly rude. It's hard to have a conversation with an atheist because they belittle our belief. We only want to share the good news with you. If you don't believe it, fine, but don't go around calling people "lazy" and "poorly educated" just because they believe something you don't. I would never go around telling Hindus that their gods were stupid. You have so much anger inside of you, it really frustrates me.
What belief? What good news?
The belief that evolution studies something it does not? The news that the OP was ignorant of the subject she was pontificating about? You don't want to seem poorly educated, don't speak about something you are ignorant of.
Or maybe Paul is just another jerk, eh?
Just because someone doesn't believe in evolution, it doesn't make them ignorant. If you are going to label people as "ignorant" because they believe in Jesus, then I'm going to label you a jerk.
Do you even bother to read before answering?
I said nothing about believing in evolution; the point was that the OP wants to discuss it and make claims about what it is about, but hasn't a clue what the theory addresses! Not that she doesn't believe it; that she is completely ignorant in the subject.
Likewise, she made her own ignorance plain to anyone reading the post (that does understand the theory) - whether she believes in Jesus or not had nothing to do with it!
You really need to work on comprehension instead of jumping to conclusions. And whether I label people as ignorant because of their religious belief has nothing to do with your labeling me as a jerk; you already did that for trying to help you by pointing out the HP rules about self promotion.
Not all people who believe in Jesus don't believe in evolution. Not believing in evolution is like not believing the sun warms the earth.
But, we only want to share the reality with you.
God bless you, Lybrah. I see you are kindhearted and defend those who are bullied. You are someone of honor. Too bad men are not men in these last days.
Wait! If your faith says that men have to defend women, even when they are completely incorrect and have no idea what they are saying AND are deliberately stirring the pot, maybe we should talk about my conversion.
Men (and women) of honor do not repeatedly mock, ridicule, insult, label, judge, belittle, accuse, etc. the individual rather than the ideas. I have attacked evolution theory and not individuals, but many of these forums disintegrate into bullying as the "gang mentality" sets in.
Again, I am posting under Religion - Christianity, Jesus and the Bible - Intelligent design. I've seen a lot of troll-like behavior on here.
Your conversion to what, atheism? I can't say if you are a believer or not, but if you're a Christian as you say, why would you treat your sister-in-Christ so poorly, and align yourself with those outside your family?
Some pots need to be stirred. Why are you so zealous for evolution theory? Why is there no love of the Word and no knowledge of the Spirit?
Your brothers and sisters in Christ from every tribe and nation are risking their lives for the Word and the truth you seem to disregard. Are you really a sister, or aren't you?
Not know that evolution does not relate to the original of life is akin to not knowing that fencing is not a ball sport, or not knowing that the Old Testament does not mention Jesus. It is a failure of awareness of information that can be accurately referred to as ignorance.
Fencing is awesome! There...now I feel like I contributed to this thread.
Fencing is indeed awesome.
Now that I've agreed with someone who has a valid point, I feel that I have contributed to peace and understanding in the world.
Fencing is incredibly cool....because of The Princess Bride, of course.
Ah, true love and an accord among strangers. What a lovely tread this has become.
I couldn't find your original post so I'm replying here.
If I waited to be asked I’d never say anything.
Can’t prove there is a god? Sure you can. As long as you define god as that which created or produced us then it is easy. We exist. We did not always exist. Something, being or process had to produce us. Hence there is a god.
But then the question is: what produced us, a being or a process? We have a lot of evidence for process but not for being. That doesn’t mean there is no higher being, it just means there is not a lot of evidence for it.
Even if it is a being which one is it? There are several thousand gods people have worshiped over the centuries. Is it one of those or something else? In dome pagan religions none of the gods produced us. Nature produced it all.
So even when you prove a god must exist you are no farther ahead. You can’t prove it’s the Christian god.
So what’s up with that? Nothing wrong with having numinous feelings. Most of us do, which is why I helped create Scientific Pantheism. It’s an atheistic world view that sees that numinous feelings most of us have as a recognition of the connection between us and all things.
Nature can be nurturing as well as cruel, and it runs by rules like the Christian god does. Step out of line and get hit by a bus. But we have all we need to survive and live very well the better we understand cause and effect.
So you’re good.
I get here as often as I can. I am currently looking for more topics for hubs. I kind of ran out. Arguing inspires me.
Just saw this.
You know, one of the things I love about you is that you really aren't an ANTI-theist. And you're never disrespectful about what others do or do not believe.
And that's a fantastic answer. Thanks!
I would agree, too bad it's falling on deaf ears, ie. the OP author. I tried to explain the two postulates of evolution, but that fell on deaf ears, as well.
I've definitely been learning, EncephaloiDead. Maybe you missed where I posted a couple of revisions based on what I have in fact learned from the evolution-pushers. You've made my work stronger, and I appreciate that. Now the greater truths will not be lost in any inaccuracies.
Slarty O'Brian seems a nice enough person, and God bless him for that. But I see deception, however unintended by him, within his Scientific Pantheism. It appears peaceable at present, even on the side of all (as flattering tongues seem to be in support of the one they are flattering, though they are not in truth or in the long run); in truth, it is one more attempt to keep people from seeking the TRUE God and thus being saved through him. Anything that blinds people is not to their benefit, no matter how "nice" it seems.
Which one of the many, many, many threads you've created thus far would those revisions reside?
Odd that you would say that I've made your work stronger, but I'd like to see that, nonetheless.
Seriously? Slarty is trying to deceive you? This is what you believe about people who are trying to be reasonable, friendly and kind to you? Deception?
Can you not see that your faith is clouding your perception of others?
One revision is under a new forum "What are the evidences against evolution theory - revised" (I haven't gotten any notifications and don't know if that one's been seen yet). You can find one of the revisions under the forum "The evolution-pusher deceives when stating evolution is fact". Here is the latest revision of that one:
"Changes and variations based on the environment (changes within species through mutation and survival of the fittest principles), and perhaps even some speciation (as in a new “species” of flies) are undisputed facts that do NOT contradict the Word of God and do NOT reveal the large speculative claims within evolution theory, but rather reveal an awesome Creator who designed creation to change and adapt! The evolution-pusher deceives when stating “evolution theory is a fact” since the theory in entirety is not a fact, but it is merely the truths related to change within the theory that are facts. These facts prove nothing beyond themselves – WE ESTABLISH NOTHING FROM THE FACTS OF CHANGE EXCEPT THE FACTS OF CHANGE!
We can agree with the truth within evolution theory that there is a “change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations” (Evolution. WIKEPEDIA – The Free Encyclopedia. (2014). Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution). However, it is neither good logic nor good science to conclude that it is therefore true that we MUST have “descended from a last universal ancestor”, theorizing that the “repeated speciation and the divergence of life can be inferred from shared sets of… traits, or by shared DNA sequences” (WIKEPEDIA, 2014). We would expect the same shared traits and DNA sequences given the truth that we share a COMMON CREATOR and since such similarities are to our benefit whether for medical purposes or simply the companionship of a beloved pet. Inferences are not the substance of good science; they are mere speculation. Evolution theory makes claims about life “billions” of years ago, and therefore can NEVER be observed without time travel, and thus can NEVER legitimately be claimed as fact, regardless of what is found or what is happening today! God created us to change and adapt for obvious reasons – we MUST change and adapt in order to survive! Praise be given to our awesome Creator for making creation to change and adapt! Led by the deceiver, evolutionists have deceptively mixed the facts of adaptation with fantasies of larger-scale evolution in order to confuse and lead many astray."
I'm not reaching many conclusions about Slarty because I don't have a way of knowing if he is intentionally or unintentionally leading away from God through yet another atheistic (though "nice") viewpoint. I don't think ill of anyone who is blinded and blindly leads away; I just feel sad for them.
It appears you've been taught to think that any time anyone brings forth something that is not biblical that are attempting to deceive you. It's simply not the case, and I can understand why someone would teach you that pattern of thinking, but it's simply unfair and prevents you from exploring new ideas. In short it's indoctrination. Nobody appears to be trying to deceive you here, they may in fact be attempting to educate you, but no one is trying to take away your faith. Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe or the beginning of life on earth.
Yes, as you say I have been "taught" to think that any time anyone brings forth something that is not biblical they are attempting to deceive me - I have been taught this by the Spirit himself!
I'll take clarification of terms, but I want no human "education" in matters regarding the truth of God. I closely examine (as all God's children are advised to do) even what preachers are saying to see if it lines up with the Spirit and the Word because the devil works not only outside, but unfortunately also inside the church.
Because of all the questions regarding the evidences, where I'm coming from and so on, yesterday I started a new forum under religion, titled "I know God exists because I KNOW God: The testimony of a believer." It's lengthy, but even at its length it is only some of my experiences with God and the supernatural.
Please don't think I am saying I'm uniquely special because I know God; true believers should all know God. And unbelievers may be those who simply have not met him yet. I always maintain hope for unbelievers, who may yet be my unborn sisters and brothers-in-Christ, because love always hopes...
Unfortunately the new thread was to long for me to read. Please keep them short. You may or may not understand that it's possible to be deceived by your own mind. That's why we look for proof and evidence in the natural world.
I have some advice for you, and don't take it the wrong way because I am only saying it because I see that there is a potential in you.
What you need to do is read real books on evolution. Take a course or something. Because if you really want to be able to fight it, you have to know it as well as those who might believe it. It only makes sense, right? I can't argue with the plumber if I really don't know much about plumbing.
If I said to you, oh, you are a Christian. One of those people who believes elves, you would quickly understand I know nothing about Christianity. Every time you make an error like thinking that evolution talks about origin, you look like the person who just asked a football player if he is going to win the Stanley Cup this year.
The reason I think you have potential is because you seem to be starting to recognize that knowing what evolution really says will make your case stronger. And it will. Well... you will have to do a lot of work, but I know you hate evolution so much that it will be worth it for you.
In the end you may even come up with a convincing argument.
But there is one thing you also have to remember, which may be one of the things you now believe about evolution that isn't true: Even if you prove it wrong tomorrow, you have not proven that the Christian god exists. That is not evolution, so much as logic. Logic is the single most important tool you have in your fight. Learn it, and use it.
As usual you are too kind. You know very well I insult people all the time just by what I say. I don't need to insult them personally.
Maybe if you mean "microevolution" or particular truths within evolution theory.
Unfortunately, your definition of "microevolution" seems different than anything I've heard, either. Can you explain what the term means to you?
Claiming that “microevolution” and “macroevolution” are distinct and different things is kind of like claiming that asteroid aggregation and planet formation are distinct and different. Evolution is properly defined as being “descent with modification.” Genetic (and epigenetic) changes occur with every generation (within a particular population) and may (or may not) eventually produce a new species. Asteroids can aggregate over time and may (or may not) eventually form planets.
Microevolution, referring to the changes in inherited characteristics over successive generations within a species and within a short time period, is where the truths of evolution theory lie. Macroevolution is where we find nothing but a lot of inference and fantasy.
Except of course for the example of the horse, donkey and zebra. And of course the African and Asian Elephant.
Some speciation may occur (my example was a new "species" of flies). Perhaps I should say Macroevolution is where we PRIMARILY find nothing but a lot of inference and fantasy.
Here is the thing. Micro and Macroevolution are made up terms to discredit evolution because they had to admit to things changing as we can see in our skin colour, hight and ability to keep warm. The horse donkey and zebra and the African and Asian elephants are examples of what you would call macro evolution. Animals that were once the same and can still produce offspring but the offspring is no longer viable. Meaning they can't become one species again. The horse, mule and zebra were once the same species but were separated by environments and adapted to that environment. We know this because they can still reproduce, but the offsprings are sterile. The African and Asian elephants have a few times successfully reproduced but the babies died shortly after birth. Meaning they are no longer the same species. These are example of Macro evolution.
Again, I have no problem with the occurrence of some limited speciation. This limited speciation, like the change in inherited characteristics in NO way demonstrates the inference that we therefore MUST have descended this way from the beginning. God designed us to change and adapt for obvious reasons - we MUST change and adapt! Praise be to our awesome Creator!!
My reply would be: fossil plus Occam's razor = we probably evolved in the past just like we do now.
Okay now we are getting somewhere. You seemed to have admitted that the evidence indicates evolution is possible from one species to another, after that nothing else matters. Study and and don't be afraid of it. I don't care if you think God directed it or not, just don't through it out because someone told you it conflicts with your God.
This was in my initial writing in the forum "The evolution-pusher deceives when stating evolution is fact" - I stated that change and adaptation and some speciation (my example was a new "species" of flies) were truths that do not contradict God's Word and do not lead to the radical conclusions within evolution theory. The truths should be maintained, but the theory, which was designed to lead people away from God by mixing these truths with speculations (that do contradict God's Word), needs to go. They should teach the truths and leave it at that; no need for the inferences and speculations, which is not acceptable in the field of science. This is why evolution theory (in TOTALITY, not the simple truths within it) is often considered more of a religion than a true science.
The theory was not designed to take people away from God. How could it? It's an explanation of adaptation and nature. It doesn't care if you believe in God or not. Nobody is asking you to throw your beliefs away to understand nature.
The "theory" doesn't care, but the evil one (who's so deceptive he's known as the "deceiver"), is behind the theory and he cares immensely!
Ahhhh, I see, you admit that evolution can cause creatures to become something given the appropriate amount to time. The fossil and genetic evidence shows that we all have a common ancestor, but you feel that for some reason Satan wants to deceive us with all the evidence because it will? What? A few thousand years ago those who wrote the bible had no idea how old the earth or the universes is or how large either of those are. We have that info now, these are facts and they shouldn't take anything away from your beliefs in God. Why would understanding evolution take anything away from your beliefs?
Understanding evolution (to the limited extent I do, but really all the conversation here is high-school stuff, I think I can hang) hasn't taken away from my faith at all.
The genetic evidence shows only that we were all created somewhat similarly by our common Creator - and this is to our advantage. I don't agree that creatures have evolved the way evolution theory presents. I do, however, know that God created all creatures to change and adapt because we MUST change and adapt to survive. Even if such significant changes occur that it results in speciation from time to time, this still reveals nothing more than itself. It does NOT lead to the inferences about evolution over billions of years; this is all speculation! There is much literature stating the fossil record has not supported evolution theory in the way hoped for because of all the gaps and distinct kinds and scarcity of that which can be construed as transitional. And CONSTRUED is a key word here. The scientists do their best, but they are limited. Some are so zealous for the theory of evolution that they will commit fraud to try to make believers in it.
I don't make any claims about the age of the earth, and see no direct evidence of it in the Bible because there are too many unknowns (for example, how long were Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden before decay and death even entered the picture; what animals lived and how long during this completely unknown time period). I think people trying to determine the age from a biblical viewpoint (from creation "days" and from genealogies) are wasting their time; within the Word, we are even instructed not to argue about useless genealogies.
You mention those who "wrote" the bible. While God used men, and yes their humanity may have had some impact on the expression of it (for example, they described airplanes long before their existence, but had to put their visions into their own words and experience), we still understand that they were "carried along by the Spirit" when giving us God's words. Ultimately, that which God wanted us to know, he told men through his Spirit. He has also through the Spirit maintained his Word, so that despite all the attempts to get rid of it throughout history, and the fact that it's illegal in 52 countries today, his Word his alive and active as ever!
I know a few reasons Satan wants to deceive and there may be more unknown to me: 1) He is by nature a liar and deceiver; 2) He is by nature a thief - The universe and all that are in it were created by and belong to God, and he is to be glorified for this, but Satan tries to take God's glory when he removes God from his brilliant, glorious design and care of us; 3) By presenting us with theories that we are nothing but the result of a combination of chance, mutation, survival of the fittest, and so on, then people are given an easy road to overlooking God, never even seeking him. This is to their great loss. Satan wants to harm both God and his prized creation - that is, humans who were made in his image.
OK. If this is logical, then you should be able to provide rigorously scrutinized evidence that support the view that you have decided makes more sense.
Since you are a person who can only accept a theory based upon rigorous scrutiny, then you must show us how you came to this conclusion.....hence this statement must pass the rigors of the same scrutiny that you have leveled against the Theory of Evolution. Could you show how you have satisfied these requirements, and assuaged any dissonance in your incredibly inquisitive nature?
Why have you been swayed to believe that God designed ANYTHING, and that God must be praised? Where is the evidence that is so irrefutable that even YOU cannot deconstruct it, WITH YOUR SUFFOCATING REQUIREMENTS? LET'S SEE IT!!!
Alright, it's lengthy, but you've asked for it in multiple posts - For your answer, see the forum I just started (under Religion and Philosophy, Christianity, Jesus and the Bible: Christian Living) - "I know God is true because I KNOW God - the testimony of a believer".
Let's see: You know god is TRUE, because....YOU KNOW GOD. Could this be any more absurd? Or any less scientific? Where is your incredibly inquisitive mind now? Where is the rigorous SCIENTIFIC scrutiny that you incessantly apply to the Theory of Evolution? I don't care about any testimony....Where is the SCIENTIFIC integrity of the testimony?
This is stuff that is covered in debate, logic and reason 101 classes. You start with a premise, and end with a conclusion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the premise or the conclusion are valid. There is no reason for me to accept your conclusion without you arguing for the validity of your premise, which you cannot do. Therefore, the argument that you just presented is exactly the same as me saying that I know Santa Claus exists because I know Santa Claus. You are either going to end up in infinite skeptical regression with endless arguments to back up your premises, or you're going to go the circular route so you don't actually have to prove or justify your premise at all. There is no possible way for you to successfully make that case. Checkmate.
In order for there to be greater God-given truths, God must exist, which he does; your believing or not believing in him does not impact the truth of his existence. I don't have to provide evidence that God exists; he provides it. Either you will come to a saving knowledge of the Lord of the universe through the Spirit, or you won't. The truth still is the truth.
I understand there are a host of obstacles to belief; the falsehoods within evolution theory are one of many. The deceiver is active both in the world and even in the church, attempting to lead many astray. Christ's followers are called to cast down highly exalted imaginations that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God, whatever they may be. If you are God's, then sooner or later you will hear and recognize his voice. That's the work of the Spirit.
I gave testimony of a sampling of healings, answered prayers, supernatural experiences, and so on. Yes, you can dismiss ALL of them because it suits you and because the things of God are yet foolishness to you.
The truths within my posts are still the truths. I learned from those who love their theory and revised accordingly, in much the same way someone would take an English lover's grammar corrections and revise accordingly to make their writing come through more accurately and clearly.
Evolution theory contains both facts and unproven inferences we're expected to accept as facts as well.
If I didn't care about people's eternal well-being, then I would not evangelize. As it is, I do care and so I evangelize.
1: You assert that something exists without evidence: a god/deity/flyingspaghettimonster. 2: You fail to address head-on any of the good points/facts that any “atheist” brings up, preferring to re-direct the conversation to a more general topic filled with ludicrous points, instead. 3: You continue to claim that Evolutionary theory contains unproven “inferences,” despite the fact those inferences are the same techniques used to determine who your parents are (DNA) and how related you are to other living animals (mutation rates). 4: You like to claim that since “macroevolution” cannot be observed within a human’s lifespan, it must not be true, despite the fact that your “god” has no evidence for its existence, whatsoever (this is called hypocrisy). 5: I have yet to hear of a case that was thoroughly scientifically investigated to conclude that “supernatural influences” were responsible for any observed phenomenon. 6: If you aren’t aware of the fact that Neurobiology is responsible for human tendencies towards religion, then you have no business claiming a god actually exists, since it is simply a figment of our imagination from birth (one of the greatest examples being autistic kids, which are naturally atheist). 7: You must first establish that some element of humans is eternal (a soul), which is also something unsupported by any degree of physical evidence, before claiming to “look out” for the well-being of it. 8: I’m not sure if I’ve seen any “truth” within any of your posts, just exaggerations and lies. 9: There is no “theory” of Intelligent Design, just hypotheses that wished they had any evidence to upgrade them to “theories.” 10: Just because something is unable to be repeated, doesn’t mean it’s not scientific; murder cases involve the collection of evidence to support a hypothesis of how the murder happened, but they can’t exactly “kill them again” in order to test their hypothesis.
God created both the seen and the unseen realms for his purposes. If he wanted his existence "proven" with "evidences", he would manifest himself so that what is unseen would be seen. As it is, he is looking for those who will come to him by faith, who with spiritual eyes "see" that which is invisible to the natural mind, who will listen to his soft call, who will love and trust him even before he has manifested himself in the natural realm.
Having things revealed to you by the Spirit and the Word is like being given a peek at the ending of a story. Others in their own "wisdom", knowledge, strength, ability and so on struggle to figure things out and in the process hit on some truths and also come to some erroneous conclusions. God does not reveal everything even to his children (so no, we do not claim to know everything), but he does reveal certain eternal truths and he gives revelation through the Spirit as he determines and as our faith permits.
To hear anyone speaking from a merely human standpoint reminds me of small children proudly declaring their own ideas and wisdom. True wisdom begins with and comes from God. "Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?" (Isaiah 2:22)
God placed within us a tendency to seek and worship him. Are those studying Neurobiology figuring out some of this tendency he placed within us? An exact place in the brain God put it, for instance?
I know Autistic children/people who are believers.
You cannot see the eternal God-given truths because they are spiritually discerned, requiring the Spirit, which you do not have. At this time they are foolishness to you. My prayer for you is that you will one day see with spiritual eyes.
I've addressed the "good points" provided by those who know and love their theory - that evolution theory and abiogenesis are distinct and that origins of life is referring solely to the initial origin and not addressing longer-term early origins, and I've revised my statements accordingly.
I am not really claiming that "since 'macroevolution' cannot be observed within a human's lifespan, it must not be true"; rather I am stating that we cannot state that macroevolution MUST be true, since we are relying on speculative inferences about that which theoretically occurred billions of years ago and is therefore unobservable.
You seem to be missing the understanding that science must prove itself to be science. Faith and religion do not need to prove themselves. This is not hypocrisy, this is simply a difference in science and religion. We believe based on faith not proof, and while some physical evidences are given to us (our very existence is a physical evidence of the Creator), the majority of our evidences will be in the spiritual realm unseen by the man without the Spirit, and thus can only be presented to you by the Spirit.
I am posting under the categories - Religion - Christianity, Jesus and the Bible, Intelligent Design and Christianity. I am speaking to those who will hear, either because they presently have the Spirit, or because the Spirit is working on them and opening their spiritual ears/eyes. I am sincerely sorry (to a much greater degree than you'd even believe) if that's not you.
Oh yes, this is where the conversation becomes fun. People often claim that god cannot be understood, and yet, you somehow understand him. You also claim that he can only be perceived by those who “choose” to detect his presence. Riddle me this, if the ability to commune with and detect a god is irrespective of Neurobiology, then how come autistic folks have such a difficult time “detecting” his presence? Does god tend to hate them or does he just purposefully elude them? Stating that you know autistic people that are religious does not negate the fact that they are ~10 times more likely to be atheist.
Alright, now on to the Bible. Was not the Bible written by humans? Therefore, it cannot be trusted (this is called an internal contradiction). Not to mention, God lies (2 Thessalonians 2:11 – “For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.”) and even breaks promises (1 Samuel 2:30 – "Therefore the Lord, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that your house and your father's house would minister before me forever.' But now the Lord declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.’”).
Also, please keep in mind that according to the Bible, you are a “lowly woman” that needs to keep her mouth shut when men are talking: 1 Timothy 2:11 – “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” No wonder the Christian God is referred to as a man (perhaps due to the fact that the original founders of Christianity were men). I’m sure glad I don’t subscribe to such a sexist/biased perspective on life!
You still seem to completely miss the point about the scientific method not requiring observation when it comes to historical events. Allow me to provide a more detailed example. Let’s say you were walking down the street and heard a gunshot inside of a house. You decide to enter the home in order to see if somebody is in need of help. As soon as you enter the door, you spot a woman aiming a gun at her husband, who is lying dead on the floor. Since you didn’t physically observe the gun firing, is it impossible to prove that she pulled the trigger and killed her husband? No, of course not. Think of fossils as being the sound of the gunshot (to garner special attention) and think of DNA as being you witnessing her standing over her husband with the gun in her hands. Therefore, you can readily draw accurate conclusions given adequate evidence when the event, itself, was not observed.
Science must prove itself to be science? You clearly don’t have a degree in Science, for if you did, you would realize how ridiculous that statement sounds. Science is Science. That’s why the “Theory of Intelligent Design” is not an actual “theory,” because it’s not Science…at all.
How many times do you have to re-state that you are posting under those categories? Do you fail to realize how irrelevant that sentence is to the actual conversation and topics at-hand? Another great example of re-directing the conversation to something utterly pointless, which is pretty much what you did with several of my points, simply deferring to “god” by default. Truly disappointing…
"Let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the Lord who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the Lord.” (Jeremiah 9:24) It really is the only thing worth boasting about. But I tell you humbly that God's call to me came not from anything I had done or any goodness I had on my own; in fact he may just have called me because of my weaknesses and my inability to be good apart from him.
You mention that the majority of those diagnosed with autism are atheists. Since people generally don't believe in and/or recognize demon possession, how can they distinguish between the mentally ill and those who are possessed by demons? Are these atheists displaying "autistic-like" behaviors because of demonic possession? Biblical accounts of demon possessed adults and children involved such behaviors as being mute, harming oneself and harming others. Well, being mute is consistent with autistic behavior, so perhaps some demonically possessed atheists are being misdiagnosed. I don't know. We can pray for them either way, whether they are mentally ill and/or demonically possessed.
You say the bible was written by men. While God used men, and yes their humanity may have had an impact on the expression of the words (for example, they described airplanes long before their existence, but had to put their visions into their own words and experiences), the truth is that they were "carried along by the Spirit" when giving us God's words. Ultimately, that which God wanted us to know, he told men through his Spirit. He has also through the Spirit maintained his Word, so that despite all the attempts to get rid of it throughout history, and the fact that it's illegal in 52 countries today, his Word is alive and active as ever!
God does not lie or break his promises! The delusion may be a covering so that they do not SEE the truth, it may be him permitting the devil to deceive them, etc. And he has kept and will continue to keep his promises to the Israelites - a remnant always remains and receives the promises. Despite all the attempts at wiping out the Israel nation throughout history, that remnant persists!
I am not bothered about verses about my "lowliness" as a woman or anything else because I understand God's ways - the least becomes the greatest! That is why in the Word the lastborn so often got the firstborn's rights or blessings; why the slave who endures will be eternally blessed over his master; why women (created second) fill the churches and are becoming the leaders in place of the men who were instructed to be; why the Jews who God called first will come into his kingdom AFTER the rest of us "Gentiles" who were called second but came first; why mistreated groups such as Black people in America are called with great frequency; why the poor and social outcasts are called with great frequency; why the sinful tax collectors and prostitutes (male and female prostitutes are mentioned elsewhere, so yes, homosexuals) were said to be entering ahead of the "religious" people; and so on.
The problem with your statements about the DNA is that DNA in truth reveals a COMMON CREATOR who created us in a similar manner (and this is to our benefit, whether for medical purposes or companionship purposes through a pet).
I don't care if they call the Theory of Intelligent Design a theory or anything else. The truth of God exists above and beyond any labels.
I pointed out the categories I was posting under because of certain comments made toward me and toward God, despite me being in the appropriate category. What is it they call those who go on just to argue and criticize? Trolls, is it?
God is NEVER deferred to by default; he is in everything and relevant to everything!
2 Thessalonians 2:11 - God sends them a "delusion". This does not equal God is lying. He could send them Satan with his deceptive evolution theory, for example, as a test of their faith in his true Word.
And the really stupid thing I find is, if someone proved evolution was wrong tomorrow, it still would not prove a god dun it.
I am not casting down the imaginations within evolution theory in order to "prove" that God exists and is our Creator. If God wanted to make himself provable in such a manner, he would be the one to do it; however, that awaits it's time, which is unknown to us, but which is on its way, as promised. I am casting down the imaginations in order to remove deceptions within the theory and the "stumbling blocks" to belief for those God will call. If that's you, wonderful; if not, I'm truly, sincerely and humbly sorry. I always maintain hope for any unbeliever because love always hopes...
...Anymore than your belief in God can stop him from not existing. That argument works both ways.
For what it's worth i'll give you my take on the subject, and by the way if one of you evolutionists can explain the Cambrian Explosion, there's probably a Nobel peace Prize in it for you!lol....So i'm not an evolutionist, but i'm not religious or spiritual either....I'm also defo not on the "fence", as "i'm" looking into the why i'm here from all angles....It's just that to me there are plenty of clues in life, and your past if you can see them, and there's more to life that what the "man" is telling us.....I know this because iv'e felt it inside me, but unless your looking in the right place for the answers, you will never find them.....I say who cares what i'm made from, "atoms" they tell me....Well so what?, what does that even mean?, what else could we have been made from?....Apparently if you could condense the actual material i'm made from, it would fit on the "point" of a pin!....So what?lol....You tell me one other thing, that we could have been made from!lol....There are a lot of things that our logical minds can't tell us, so we have to stop trying to find the answers with our logical minds....I started looking inwards through meditation, and mind/feelings/emotions control....Once i mastered that and cleared all negative thoughts etc, then my mind was opened to fresh ideas from the ether....Where do ALL ideas come from, out of nowhere....So if you want to know if there is a god, start looking inside you ....I mean call me stupid or whatever you like i'm not bothered, but i'm finding out for myself....What i can tell you is that since iv'e done all the above, i have felt something like a wise loving immense energy.....Now i'm only saying iv'e had "glimpses" of this energy, and i'm not about to jump on the religious band wagon......Even if i did feel god's presence i won't name god, or join any religion ever.....All i'm saying is i have felt an energy like no other, through practicing etc.....Watch Terrence Mackenna's vids on DMT trips, and then listen to what Joe Rogan says on the subject.....And there's some very respected scientists, that will swear we're living in the matrix!lol....We are all made from energy that's what the scientists tell us, so why can't we be living in the matrix?....The DMT trips would account for the energy we can tap into, which a lot of peeps have tapped into.....So lets not get stuck on something someone else proves or disproves, when i say we we're all born with the ability to find our own answers.....I'm gonna smoke some DMT, and meet these entities myself some time this year....Now i'm not saying there real, but i'm gonna find out....Peace. :-)
Please, take a few minutes to learn about human Neurobiology before seeking "advice from the ether."
It looked a bit boring to me buddy, can you tell me your point?.
I could say to you spend some time meditating, but probably be boring for you.
Where are you saying ideas come from then, from our brain?
I can ask myself a question, without using my brain.
Some answers are revealed through meditation.
Here are three articles to get you started on learning about Neurobiology:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-h … 57098.html
http://www.koestler-parapsychology.psy. … attNDE.pdf
I actually felt brain cells dying as I read the above article. Science does not require faith. I have FAITH in the fact that there will always be people mentally slow enough to fail to grasp simple concepts.
Science is not meant to require faith, and that is why "evolution theory", which steps far and fantastically beyond the simple provable truth of changes in inherited characteristics, is not so much real science as a religion.
You do realize the irony in your statement, right? That an ignorant person not believing in Evolutionary Theory requires faith, but an ignorant person “believing” in Evolutionary Theory does not, since Science is a self-regulating process that weeds out the highly unlikely hypotheses that have little predictive or explanatory value long before they become theories.
Could you give an example. It says there is spontaneous genetic variation, this is observed and can be experimentally decelerated. It says those with variations that make them more fit, have more offspring. This is also observed and has been see to happen within the researchers lifespan in some cases like the Australian sea urchin.
The only slight leap from immediate fact is to suggest fossils are previous forms of life that are now extinct. But that is not a big reach. They very much seem to be forms of life and are dated by multiple methods such as substrate position and carbon decay.
Cherchez the fantastical leap?
The spontaneous genetic variation and the survival of the fittest principles of microevolution are true and are involved in the changes we witness. God magnificently designed creation to change and adapt. Anything beyond this observed change is speculation, made by inferences, and since it cannot be observed, is more about faith than real science. This is why so many say evolution theory in totality is less of a science and more of a religion.
There's nothing to back evolution up really, and no one can explain the Cambrian Explosion, and even Darwin himself said, he very much doubted that an eye could just evolve....I mean just why would an eye evolve, unless it was programmed to evolve?....I'm not religious, i'm just curious....Although since i started meditating etc, i feel differently now about that question, it's like i know/feel i will know the answer one day....And i haven't brainwashed my self into this, as brainwashing requires using my mind....Watch Terrence Mackennas vid on DMT, for a completely different view of everything....Or try a sensory deprivation tank or meditation etc, you've got to still & clear your mind, as that's when the answers start coming. :-)
There's nothing to back evolution up really, and no one can explain the Cambrian Explosion, and even Darwin himself said, he very much doubted that an eye could just evolve....I mean just why would an eye evolve, unless it was programmed to evolve?....I'm not religious, i'm just curious....Although since i started meditating etc, i feel differently now about that question, it's like i know/feel i will know the answer one day....And i haven't brainwashed my self into this, as brainwashing requires using my mind....Watch Terrence Mackennas vid on DMT, for a completely different view of everything....Or try a sensory deprivation tank or meditation etc, you've got to still & clear your mind, as that's when the answers start coming....The only evidence for "spirits/gods" etc, could only be found inside us, as our body/ego lives in the physical world. :-)
Please spend some time on these sites reading about Evolution and the Cambrian Explosion before making such erroneous claims:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/e … ndex.shtml
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libr … 34_02.html
Even though drug/meditation-induced philosophical rants (by people like Terence McKenna) can be fun/entertaining, you might want to try actually acquiring knowledge on topics before resorting to such primitive methods in your attempts to re-invent the wheel. Remember, you can only perform novel research on a subject once you fully comprehend our current level of understanding about that subject. Also keep in mind that excessive meditation can begin to mimic the effects of an isolation chamber (devoid of light or contact with the outside world) due to the fact you are shutting down your external senses, potentially leading to madness. Btw, “cleansing” your mind with meditation can technically be considered brain “washing,” heh!
So why do you keep going on and on about evolution? If God hates evolution he has a very strange way of showing it, strewing all those evolving animals and fossils around.
Haven't you been listening? That's Satan's evil hand work. God simply doesn't know how to stop him.
Will someone give me any kind of evidence where any pieces evolved into another, please any kind! Explain to me without sending me to another website, why you believe this in your own words, at what time in life did you start to believe this theory [and that all it is] and what part of it that really got you believing in this religion. I would like to take a closer look at individual parts and try to understand what would make one hold so religiously to something that makes no sense at all.
But first I believe we must start with where did the earth come from in the first place, did it evolve or did it just pop on the scene out of nothing. What I’m constantly hearing is what’s called effect without cause. Your so-called scientific great mind themselves claims there are no effect without first having a cause. But when it comes this beautiful home of ours, this beautiful place with such beautiful sunset, everything we need to survive and enjoy life the go against their own roles and claim this world came into existence without a first cause.
Nothing just exploded and went Big Bang and it turned into you and me, no cause, just effect. I’ve studied most major religions and with all of them, except the religion of evolution, had a first cause, at least in their minds. It takes great blind faith to believe in this religion which claims that nothing exploded into something and that something turn into me, now that takes great faith in this religion that makes no sense at all.
I truly would like to know what it is that would a rational intelligent human being get in evolved in this type of religion. I can see the positive results of Christianity, I see the Christian with hope for the future and a future life. When I look at the evolutionist in these forums I see a bitter people who have no hope for the future with bitterness toward those whose religion brings hope and joy to the heart. If a religion can’t bring such joy, why get involved in it in the first place, what good is it if it can’t at lease bring hope?
The bitterness that it brings to you should tell you that something is very wrong with your religion; I have enough to deal with in this life I don’t need a religion that not going to at least bring joy to my heart and in my life hope, but make me bitter. Nothing about this religion makes any sense.
Evolution is not a religion, it's just science apart from religion and shouldn't get in the way of religion.
Nobody says the big bang came from nothing. It's my understanding that science tells us everything in the universe was compressed into one single spot. It seems to me that those think God made everything from nothing are the ones making the leap. First assuming he made everything from nothing and then assuming he himself was not made. If everything needs a cause why did man invent something that explains the universe that doesn't need a cause?
The African and Asian elephant can no longer produce viable offspring.
The horse, donkey and zebra can no longer produce viable offspring.
They are no longer the same species. They can still produce offspring meaning they were once the same species, but have evolved to something else.
I implore you to study physics. Only then will you know the error of you model of it.
Perhaps someone has told you this, perhaps not. But I will try it because it might shed some light on things for you.
Big bang wasn't a bang. It was a rapid expansion. A rapid expansion of what? Very good question. Energy is the answer. The pin point you talked about was super condensed energy. All the energy that is now in this universe. No more, no less.
No one knows what caused the singularity to expand, but it is either assumed that the question is meaningless as we can not know what the stimulus was that caused it to expand, or that the answer is, we don't know but something must have caused it to expand.
Now to first cause? Was there a first cause? That is to say, energy can not be created and it can nor be destroyed. That is one of the laws of Thermodynamics and it is a fact.
So here you have something that can not be destroyed and can not be created. So does it have a beginning?
Now you may think that an absurd thought, but then if there is a god, that is essence what you think about him. Always was.
And of course something has to always have existed in one form or another for anything at all to exist now. Not even a god can make something from nothing.
For you that thing is a being called god.
However, if you have this substance which all things are made of, that can not be destroyed, then there is an alternative to god.
Moreover, this substance that can not be created or destroyed, can only transform. And that is what it does in response to manipulation and stimulus. It's own, by the way, as all things are made from it, All things are unique with their own unique properties. That causes very specific actions and reactions, due to interaction.
And again I must reveal a secret in logic to you so you don't get the wrong idea and go off fighting windmills. You may hate the idea of a Big Bang. But if you don't actually want to learn physics and dispute it from a position of knowledge, then just forget about it, it is not important. Because even were you to become a physicist and prove the BB never happened, you would be no closer to proving a god did it.
Please pay attention true Christians, here is stated the goal of those who push evolution and related theories: "If you have this substance which all things are made of, that can not be destroyed, then there is an alternative to god." THIS is the goal of the evil one: to present an alternative in the minds of God's prized creation, that is, humans who were created in God's very image! Have no part in the wickedness of this day's godless theories, but rather expose them! To God be the glory forever and ever! Amen!
Slarty is neither evil or wicked. His goal is to have a conversation. Now this is getting ridiculous. Your right to speak your faith ends at personal attacks and hate speech against those who have a different religious view than you.
The "evil one" is not Slarty, but Satan. Satan presents theories to deceive and create an alternative to God! Slarty, either knowingly or blindly, stated the intentions of the theories.
Shhhhh! I have a reputation to maintain.
Folks like her mean well. Really. When you are so caught up in the idea of a devil VS a god everything is black and white. You are with them or against them because they actually believe you are not only in danger of eternal hell but a danger to them and others.
That is why they often refuse to educate themselves outside of religious texts or religious pseudo-science. They are afraid of getting too close to the enemy and being tricked.
It is the same mentality as the inquisition had. Inquisitors were being kind by torturing you into admitting heresy. No matter what the pain here on earth, they were sparing you the pain of hell. And, the bonus was that if you confessed and repented, you were assured to go to heaven when they killed you. Can you think of a better deal then that?
There is no common ground to be had with fundamentalists. You are one of the hive or you are not. And if not you are a danger. I am convinced of that, There is no way in. How can there be? You work for the devil.
I'm just happy they are no longer in power.
For all true atheists. See this? It was bad enough we endured Catholic fundamentalism for 2000 years. We must be vigilant and make sure U.S fundamentalism never gains power, for surely they would rain hell on earth and laugh as they toss atheists into a cleansing fire! Be warned!
See? I can point and screech too. lol....
Yeah, sorry about that whole inquisition/witch hunt thing. Not sure if anyone ever got around to apologizing for that.
I like Catholics now. I used to be one of them. I married one.They turned out to be the most reasonable of the bunch.
Jews are pretty mild mannered too when they are not being attacked, and they used to go around killing every man woman and child in their way, on their way to the promised land. Now it's Islam's turn. They all got a kick at the can. Islam just started later. It will pass.
Nothing to be sorry for, you didn't do it. Those that did had a lot of people to say sorry to, but that ship sailed a long time ago. We are only responsible for what we do.
Thanks for the warning. I feel as if you just pointed at me and screeched like one of the pod people who has found someone not of their hive. It;s an old horror movie, you probably never saw it.
Shall I admit it? Ok, I"m satan. Satisfied? At least I'm honest.
Actually, that's the self reference problem. It creates a paradox If I am honest and say I am lying, am I lying or being honest? If I tell you I am a liar should you believe me? I'm probably lying, right? So I must be telling the truth. But if I am telling the truth I must be lying because that's what I said I did.
Anyway, no I am not satan, I lied. But not about there being an alternative process to existence besides god. So yes, your worst fears have come true. God is dead and the Beatles were more popular than god in their time.
The good news is atheism is on the rise. Sorry about that, but it is good news.
Yes, I'm afraid I am here to take your faith and lead you away from god. God told me it was my job to do exactly that and you don't mess with what god tells you to do, right?
I take it you won't be subjecting yourself to a real education in what evolution is really all about.
Don't cry for me, I'll be crying for you.
YOU are not Satan, Slarty, but your post right there, stating "God is dead and the Beatles were more popular than god in their time", certainly reveals you are about your spiritual "father's" business! Let no true Christian be deceived!
Do not be deceived, Satan is a fictional character. Anyone believing that fictional characters are real, is disconnected from reality. Please don't allow your mind to be manipulated by this kind of delusional thinking. And please, please remember Jim Jones and the Branch Davidians. Devoutly believing in imaginary Gods and Devils is the first step toward drinking the Kool-Aid.
Anyone who thinks DNA is an alternative to God would need to be seriously cognitively impaired. As, IMHO, would anyone leaping from that assumption to denying DNA exists or has the properties of mutation and inheritance that it quite clearly has. Even doubting Thomas changed his mind in the face of evidence.
In my defense I never said a thing about DNA. But carry on...
My post quote the person I was responding to. Which was not you. So, yeah... the lack of direct relevance is not astounding?
But can you think of another name for the "substance" we are made of that "cannot be destroyed"?
At this point, do you think what you say actually matters?
Ah, it sometimes does. I just think the window of opportunity for that stops when this happens:
Which is why Christian and atheist alike should band together to make sure that there is a clear separation of church and state. That is the only way to protect everyone from everyone else.
At the risk of being dragged to the stake with you, I agree. Frankly I don't understand the reasoning behind the conservative Christian resistance to the idea.
I personally don't want the government making rules regarding my worship. Eventually, just like the founders of our country figured out, even the most devout wouldn't want that either. Since there are sooooo many branches of Christianity, eventually there would be a rule that came down that they would feel oppressed by. Maybe so much that they got on boats to leave the country and form their own country... oh, wait.
The dream, for them, is the government be ran not only according to their general faith, Christianity, but by their specific denomination. It's never, ever, going to happen because the predominate denomination varies from state to state (and often within states). Since all states have representatives... well there you go.
They THINK that just the label of Christian is good enough to set government standards by... until the Southern Baptist is having laws made for them by a Mormon representative from Utah (or vice versa)
But, barring that, the concept of a Christian ran government flies in the face of everything resembling the idea of freedom of religion. Regardless of whether Atheists, Muslims, Satanists, Hindus or whatever will inherent the kingdom of heaven, they damn sure are full citizens of the United States of America. Here, they get full benefits of such.
Ring species. But yes, you would need to go "to a website" to see how that is the kind of evidence you are demanding.
I think you may need look up the definition for religion and get back to me on that one. Speaking of cause and effect, the single spot that the universe was compressed into was not the cause, it itself is an effect, the cause would be, what cause the single compress spot. Where did the single spot come from, if we can get to that than maybe we can get to the first cause?
God did create everything from nothing; therefore He’s the first cause. Now that we’ve found the first cause now we can understand where the single compressed spot [the effect] come from.
I’m trying to understand your last paragraph, how does an elephant being unable to reproduce offspring result in them being a new species? They are still elephants; they haven’t turned into a monkey or some other type animal. The horse, donkey and zebra all belong to the same family, I think you need to go back and study the evolutionary theory again because I don’t think you really know your religion very well.
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
I could give or take evolution, I don't worship it and don't care if it's debunked. It has nothing to do with any spirituality.
You asked for an example of one species turning into another. The African and Asian elephants are examples. They can produce offspring, but the offspring either can't survive or can't reproduce. Tigers and lion look different but can reproduce viable offspring. The horse, donkey and zebra are also example of animals who can still reproduce, but the offspring is sterile. They are an example of one species that was separated by environments and evolved far enough away that they can no longer become one species.
It's what you asked for, species in transition.
She wants you to show her an ant turning in to a monkey. You will never satisfy her with anything so mundane as the facts. See, she is going to say elephants are still elephants. Change is not enough. She wants to see things change from one thing in to another. A dog that changes in to a horse might do, and then into a monkey, and then in to a human. That would prove it.
It's just too bad evolution doesn't work the way theists want it to.
Imagine that, wanting to see "things change from one thing into another" to demonstrate an absurd theory that says "things change from one thing into another"!
Got a few hundred thousand years? It can be arranged.
Good answer on religion, now maybe you don’t worship the gods of science, but most people in these religious forums do. They put all faith in science; these are the superhuman controlling power, their personal god. In religion people go there to find out the meaning of life, why am I here, what am I, who am I, where did come from and what is my end if there is one.
These are the question that religion claims to answer; these are the same questions that the gods of science claims to answer so it is a religion.
The problem is that little pony man with his little tiny brain can’t conceive of a being higher that he. He can’t believe that there’s a being that can span the oceans of the world with one hand. This little man with a pea brain compared to the awesomeness of the known universe can’t get himself to believe in the possibility of a being whose head may be the side of the earth; I know I’m way out there.
That’s one reason the word says no man can lay eyes on God the Father, he’s too awesome one look at him and it will give you a heart attack and may even cause your head to explode.
This little tiny man can’t even leave his own backyard [our Solar System] but yet have the audacity to claim to tell us what’s going on millions and millions light years away and he can’t even travel to his next door neighbor. Sure he can’t create a gadget to send to his neighbor, but he himself is stuck in his own backyard.
Now he tries to tell me that he looked through a piece of glass and looked trillions and trillions of light years across space and come to tell me he that he and his piece of glass have found the answer to the question all the world is asking. Where did I come from! There are many beings higher and much bigger than this pony little man. What’s happening is that science is trying to play God; the problem is that his little brain is too tiny so he puffs himself up in his tiny little mind and tries to play the big man, God!
Evolution, what they claim is scientific fact is a religion complete with its own gods.
Again, the Asian and African elephants are still elephants, what part has change from being elephant? Do they now have a monkey’s heart or giraffe’s legs? What part of these elephant spot being elephant?
The tiger and lions both belong to the cat family, what you are describing is verity within a single species. The horse, the donkey and the zebra all belong to the horse family, Chickens, turkeys, pigeons all belong to the fowl family and it just verity within that family.
This is a frighteningly inadequate understanding of the Theory of Evolution. Believe me, it is not Satan that is trying to deceive you. It is your own rigid indoctrination that has caused your progress to freeze....at a sub-elementary level of understanding. Did you just NOT pay attention in Biology class? Have you taken any courses, pertaining to Evolution, at your local college? .....OH! I forgot that would be exposing yourself to the manipulation of Satan. My bad. The fat lady has sung.
Since I have a frighteningly inadequate understanding of the theory of Evolution I’ll play the student and play the part of the teacher. Since my progress is frozen at a sub—elementary level of understanding, please defrost me, teach me of your religion. No, I have never taken in evolution I have more important things to do with my time than, but here I am now, teacher teach me!
All I asked from the beginning was for someone of your faith to indoctrinate me, tell me of your wonderful discovery of how I came into being. Why it is so hard for any of you to explain what it is about evolution that got your attention, at what point in life you became a disciple, teacher, teach me!
But, you said you have much more important things to do with your time than learn something, besides you have wisdom.
Stop grandstanding; we’ll here to discuss evolution right? So why don’t we get down to discussing the theory of evolution? The reason why none of you evolutionist wants to talk about evolution is because you know it’s been debunked. Even the gods of science themselves says it’s untrue yet they refuse to remove it from the textbooks because they have nothing to replace it with.
That’s why they fight so hard to keep the creation story form being taught in schools alongside it and let the students come to their own conclusion.
Knowing that their gods have let them down, for evolutionist it come to ridicule and belittlement, they have nothing else. You are a poor warrior for your gods!
Yeah, that's some real good wisdom you've got there.
It's all about warring and fighting with you creationists, not about learning anything. How very sad.
what is sad is that you have all this great education and knowledge of the universe and can't explain any of it. none of it! you have avoided the topic continually, why are in a forum on evolution and afraid of discussing?
where's your wisdom that your gods have bestowed on you? Your gods have failed you and you them! I'm gone, later!
This thread is about "fluff" evidences for evolution. Nothing has been presented as fluff yet, so we're still waiting for that.
We can discuss evolution if you wish, but you don't know anything about it and have no intention of learning, so what's the point?
First you must understand that Gods are imaginary, fictional characters. They only exist in fairy tales. Please bring yourself out of this primitive mode, and maybe you can begin to understand the real world, because discussing Science requires the understanding of an adult and not that of a child.
what is sad is that you have all this great education and knowledge of the universe at your finger tips and don't want to understand any of it. So how can you know what answers it has and which it is still looking for? You are therefore hardly qualified to comment on it.
I was told the same thing when I started asking questions about god in Sunday school. The difference is I was told not to ask questions, simply to learn. So I did, until I found the answers to my questions myself, once I learned what they were teaching.
So until you learn science, don't bother trying to refute it. That's a fools game.
But the good news is here you can ask questions and get answers, if you are willing to listen and learn.
Then, when you know, you can rebut. And then we can all have an educated discussion on the topic.
You do understand that science has no God and thus requires no faith? You may choose to become a student of science, or disciple, if you prefer, but it won't save your soul or pull you away from the God who does. It simply offers, through exploration, testing, and observation, an explanation for and of the natural processes of our universe.
It isn't the purview of science to prove or disprove God-simply to understand the world and the universe that surrounds us.
At the end of the day, many believers accept valid scientific finding because they just don't preclude a Creator. Period.
That's how I see it anyway.
It seems that you are in attack mode, and that you are here to insult, and misrepresent. And since learning is a passive experience, it is difficult to learn anything while in an aggressive mode.
First of all Evolution is not a belief, it is a working scientific theory, therefore you are misrepresenting it by labeling it a religion.
First, I assume you must be familiar with the following terms: fossils, methods of dating fossils, animals, primates, extinction and slow change.
10 million years ago: Fossils dated 10 million years old do not show human remains, i.e, no humans existed 10 million years ago. There are animal fossils, of species we know and of species that are extinct. However, there are fossils of primates (creatures that are similiar to apes and humans) which have some humanoid characteristics, although they do not look human at all.
5 million to 3 million years ago: There is a fossil, dated at around this age, which has been given the name of "Lucy". Lucy was a primate, very ape-like, and, because of the characteristics of her pelvis, is thought to have walked upright most of the time. There were still no humans at that time.
5 million years ago till 2 million years ago: The fossils that have been found have a progressively larger skull and they look progressively more human, although they still look more like apes.
2 million years ago: The records show that there was a species called Homo Habilis. Still very similar to apes, but this time its fossils were found close to the first tools, made of stone. They are considered the most primitive form of human beings.
400,000 years ago: Homo Erectus appears. Now, more human than ape and as similar to Homo Habilis as they were to Homo Sapiens.
Homo sapiens, as we know ourselves, have existed since about 200,000 years ago. The oldest fossil is very difficult to differentiate from an Homo Erectus one.
Did you even read this? You have stated that you wanted to be taught, but then when you are presented with a lesson on the subject of Evolution, you totally ignore it. At this point all credibility has been lost, and this whole exchange has been a farce on your part. You claim to have the morally superior ground, yet you can't even be honest. Instead you run away. How courageous?! I'm sure your idiotic God must be very proud.
As soon as you said homo he ran for the hills.
I didn't say he lived near them, just that he ran for them. lol... Unless he's seen Broke Back Mountain, of course. Then he probably turned around and headed for a valley.
Oh you mean as in Beverly? That's a whole nother possibility. But nuff said.
I take you are one of those that can't see past yourself and assume everyone is just like yourself. You have a religion and faith therefore everyone must as well. The thing about science is there is no faith required because it required evidence.
I get it, you don't want to learn about our universe from anything other than a 2000 year old book. That's fine, but there are those that do. If we all took your advice we still be stuck in the middle ages without that computer you typed that message.
You asked for animals in transition so I gave them to you. The horse and the donkey are just that, so are the African and Asian elephants. Now if you want to see to animals that turned into something else look at the Chimp and the human. We have both geological and genetic evidence that we have a common ancestor a few million years ago. For some this fact is painful because they see them selves as better than other animals, but that's just arrogance. Right?
you know nothing about the theory of evolution, you'll just repeating what you've heard other say. Explain to me in what way have we ascended from the chimp. Explain the evidence about the chimp and the human to me. you have a student here, now teach him!!!
Again, learning is a passive experience. It seems that you are too hyper to allow any knowledge to penetrate. You are too busy spouting foolish straw man fallacies, and NOT LISTENING TO ANYTHING WHATSOEVER. You can't learn anything until you calm down and make yourself receptive to learning.
More insults. How un-Christ like.
I don't think I'll waste me energy imparting knowledge to someone who continues to insult. I will say that it a lengthy process encompassing that last 28 or so million years and geological and genetic evidence backs that up. Funny we never see any genetically modern humans in the geological evidence before 200,000 years ago, but it appears we do see some neanderthals walking about. I've read that neanderthals failed because they weren't as innovative as us and were not willing to learn and adapt.
It is worse than they think. We did not descend from apes. We are a species of ape.
Want to see an animal in transition, watch what our cities are doing to raccoons. The difference between city and country raccoons is interesting. We've given them the perfect environment to develop intelligence.
Develop as in enhance their intelligence, yes. Many animals show a much higher degree of intelligence than most people give them credit for. Ravens can be taught to fish. They use wolves to do their killing for them if an animal is weak but too big for them to take down. Then they get most of the catch and the wolves get the left overs. They even have fun. Some have been seen sliding down slopes in the winter on their backs, just for fun.
To me, something that can have fun, watch and plan, and be taught to use tools, is doing alright on the intelligence scale.
Evolution does not stop. It is an ongoing process where all things are in constant transition.
You have been given wisdom from above, r-o-y, and that is the only wisdom that is commendable and trustworthy!
Thanks C J, right only the Lord is trustworthy. From man’s universities one can get a lot of worldly knowledge, but it can’t give wisdom, only God can give wisdom.
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