Islamic teachings
Is there something you really dislike most in islamic teachings?Please be brief and specific
How about: "Kill anyone and everyone who disagrees with Islam"?
there is no rule which states kill everyone who disagrees with Islam.
please don't take things out of context.... there are verses which state something similar to "find them and kill them" ... this was said while a war was taking place. In war, there is death in all parties involved.
Jews / Christians & Muslims have lived in the same regions in peace (even as neighbors) during and after the time of prophet Muhammad.
Now that you bring it up, there are several things. Islam like all deity beliefs subjugates people. It reduces people to no more than slaves to the representatives of the gods. Islam does not play well with others. Islam is based on a mandate to believe
in a god that has been cherry picked from Judaism and Christianity. Islam claims a truth without fact, a truth without evidence and as Christianity used and uses a sword
to spread itself where it is not wanted.
Of all that the Koran says, point to a truth that a reasonable man may examine.Oh, and lets not forget that the punishment for leaving Islam is death.
true... apostasy is treated as high treason in islam.
Only until a few decades ago (1973) high treason was punished by death in all western countries. some still have a clause or two which allow the death penalty but the majority have shifted to life imprisonment.
In any case : it can be argued why the rule applies after the following:
"it is Qur'an 4:89 that is often quoted in Sharia courts as justification for the execution of an Apostate. However, the following verse Qur'an 4:90 expands on this to "Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."[36] In addition, the previous verse states that this verse refers to the hypocrites, "Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way." Quran 4: 88."
~ wikipedia.Sorry, I don't see where that verse says anything about those leaving your faith. If it does then you should use it to change your own laws rather than trying to convince me that your laws are incorrect.
See the problem is we in the west have secular laws. Laws for all people of different faiths. We can change religion with being killed. We can leave the country free from being killed, we do have laws that don't allow us to fight against our own countries. There currently are people who are leaving the west to fight for ISIS. Which is not treason yet, but they can be charged to alining themselves with a terrorist organization.
Why would Islam need laws that result in death for leaving Islam. Do you think it's fair to charge extra taxes on those of other faiths?If your word alone will change the constitution of your country then you have a better system than ours. It will not work, as i do not have the power to change the laws set by all the islamic nations.
Taxes - yes i think it is fair to have higher taxes if you are Guaranteed safety.
Think of it this way ... i completed my studies in the UK. If i paid GBP 10,000 for my degree, then a citizen of UK paid GBP 2,500 for exactly the same degree. I had to show 3 times the money in my account to get a visa so they knew i could afford to travel and live in the UK for that amount of time. The same happens with Canada / Australia / America. Showing 3 times the money is understandable because they don't want me to become a burden on the economy.
But i still had to pay 4 times the normal amount to get the same degree. I don't think that is fair either... but that's just how the system works even in the west. if you are a foreigner you pay more.Well, of course you pay more. Most of post secondary education is paid with taxes. So if you are a resident and paying taxes, your education is subsidized by the government, however why would the government subsidize someone from another country? That person pays the full amount for the education as they should as they are most likely taking the spot of a citizen of the country.
I didn't know it came from the taxes. does it also apply if the parents have lived most of their life on welfare?
Yes. However at least in my country very few people live their lives on well fair unless they have some kind of disability. Everyone in my country has equal rights to healthcare.
Further, in Canada the poor have access to Student Loans which are guaranteed by the government.
If a student fails, drops out or for some other reason does not graduate then they are on the hook for the entire loan. If they do complete properly then much of the loan is 'forgiven'.
Well fare is not as easy as many non-Canadians think it is. It is certainly not a 100% certain thing.
How about the killing of the "blue-eyed" devil?
if you could visit the tribal areas in pakistan you would find a number of people with blue eyes... maybe they were referring to those blue eyed people.
search google for "blue eyed pashtun"
Pashtun is the name of a Pashto speaking tribe found in pakistan.
The Quran indeed has its share of beautiful passages, though it is ripe with contradictions. Mohammed goes from advocating forgiveness for transgressions to the encouragement of chopping off hands of thieves. There is the ridiculous passage that encourages a man to cleanse himself with dirt after having contact with a woman. And then there is just the pervasive amount of intolerance found within the Quran as well as the Hadiths.
One example of the intolerance to be found lies in the Quran 3.85, Surat Al Iman, "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good)".
I do not deny that there are certain aesthetically attractive passages in the Quran. And I have much respect for the Sufi mysticism. But when it comes to the fundamental and historical aspects of the religion, I can understand why there is far too much cruelty, intolerance and contradiction for some to find it sacredly inspired.beth : I can see your point of view and it is valid, but you also have to understand the type of people prophet Muhammad had to deal with at the time. His goal was to bring the whole muslim community towards what you are calling sufism. You seem knowledgeable about the Quran and Hadith. you must have read the hadith when returning from war and people were living in peace, the Prophet said "Now it is time for the Greater Jihaad" ... the people asked what is the Greater Jihaad, he replied "the conquest of yourself" ... Sufism is all about improving yourself by going through various phases of the soul and ultimately finding a connection with God and total submission to Gods will.
Now if the pagans and the followers of islam at the time were burying their girls alive, solely because of their gender ... he would lay down some strict rules to ensure it would not happen again. If they were attacked by pagans, then they would be harsh with the pagans. If the same pagans came to join islam he would invite them with open arms. He loved every soul in this world and wanted us all to find the light within ourselves, but with so many different kinds of people involved there is always a rocky road. Even sufism with all its love states that being polite to an aggressive person is foolish. I can find you the traditional quote for that if you like.
I hope this helps you understand a little better ... and thanks for your input.You are welcome. I do not agree with your views on Mohammed, but you are polite, and I always appreciate that in a person. And yes, I have read them.
BTW, I don't follow a pagan path that approves of burying girls alive. You may be thinking of the inflexible Roman patriarchal and Hera-worship paths. I am Norse and a follower of Freyja.Its fine ... i'm no scholar of islam and you don't have to agree with me at all. You seem like a learned and respectable person with an open mind; maybe a discussion with a muslim scholar would be better for you. Islam is also not a path that everyone would choose, that is understood clearly from the Quran. I'm just glad that apart from all the media against Islam, you can see the good side.
I did not assume that you had any association with pagans. It was just an example of the type of people Muhammad had to deal with. If i offended you in any way, then i apologize, it was not my intention.
I have never heard of Freyja to be honest. I will have to do some reading to get better acquainted with Norse Mythology.
take care and God bless.
The Bible is also rife with Contradictions. Just sayin'
The attitude of the people of Islam, because they want to impose on the rest of the world their beliefs.
I can understand your concern frank and you are right about the people. We carry the wrong attitude.
Actually, I don't believe this. I feel this opinion is fear based and comes from Western media propagating a hatred for Islam.
Most of the troops in ISIS for example are what we refer to as 'conscripts' - this means they are being FORCED into ISIS membership against their will. To me, forcing a human being to give up their free will on pain of death is a sin. Giving up your free will is also a sin - it is a rejection of God's gift.
At any rate, the only source for this we have is outlets like CNN - which are propaganda based outlets and not true news. The goal of American media is to propagate a constant state of fear and war among the American people. To do this they will say anything, do anything, show anything they need to show, do or say in order to maintain this fear and hatred.
How else would the American Government justify the construction of super carriers when they have no health care, rampant unemployment and a civilian population that appears to be getting more upity every day. Food stamps being cut, runaway national debt in the trillions. Bail outs for bankers and repossessions for every day ordinary citizens.
Yes, there is a GREAT need for massive distraction in America today. Islam is only the selected target for that distraction. All military/industrial complexes need an enemy to be constantly present in order to justify the waste (oops, I mean expense). No enemy? No justification for massive aircraft carriers and various other wastes of resources.So, there are faults on propaganda on both sides, but religions and above all God should be above all this stuff, because God is the father of every living thing, and therefore follows that he can only love us all irrespective to which religion we belong; if any God does not represent love, and is not above what people want him to be, then that God is not worth following.
God caters for all. He does not pick a side.
He is not in favour of killings ... He is in favour of mercy and peace ... His love is much greater than you could imagine. once you get passed the rubble you will see it.God is on no one side. Just because a Mullah or Priest makes this claim does not make it so at all.
Preachers who say they speak for God are liars and manipulators nothing more. Christian, Islamic, Jew - makes no difference.
There is only one God.Man uses God to propagate whatever agenda they have. Don't blame God when an confused Islamist murders some poor christian or whatever. Blame instead the humans who confused him to begin with.
and don't let yourself become confused in the tangled mess of propaganda and half truths. Study Islam for yourself and then ask yourself why you hate it... or even if you still hate it.
Superstition.
I can't be more brief and specific.All religions. The difference between religions is only in the degree of violence perpetrated by its followers.
can't you consider the fact that the free will of a human could be the cause of violence?
lets take religion totally out of this world right now... don't you think people will use racism or some other measure such as wealth to fight?But the degree of violence will be far less. Even racists invoked god in support.
Free will, why should humans use free will to fight? They use all their will for survival and procreation.the teachings of religion tell you to separate yourself from greed, envy, pride, etc... a proud person would possibly become a racist even though he did not follow any religion or believed in a God. there is nothing in religion which says a black man is better than a white or otherwise... yet people are racist, people kill for greed, and all the other major sins mentioned in christianity...
Because of its popularity people use religion to fulfill their own hidden agenda, whatever the agenda may be. it is now used as a tool to justify mass killings. that is not fair to any of the religions, because that is not what religion teaches us.If religion is less a cause why most violence today is in the name of religion?
Religion is irrational belief. People who are irrational can be motivated to believe any nonsense and do anything.
"Because of its popularity people use religion to fulfill their own hidden agenda"
Is that why the prophet used it?ive answered the first part of your question already, and you've stated it in your response.
Lets take the prophet as a normal human being for an instance. Why was he kicked out of mecca in the first place. Only because he thought differently and people wanted to believe in him? he forced no one to join him in the start. Rational or not was his choice. Its was life, let him live it how he wants to.
rational or not is not the matter ... people always come up with a difference of opinion and in most cases the majority wins... in the case of our prophet, they successfully kicked him out of mecca.Yes but by that you are commiting the fallacy 'no true Scotsman'. By your argument the majority are not religious. So what is the use of religion?
That was how all charlatans started out. They never force anyone till they can. So shall we justify charlatans?
If the prophet used force he would have met with the same fate of jesus. Once he got power he used force to covert. And he did became the ruler, didn't he?
So he was using religion to promote his hidden agenda, wasn't he?
Yes, but when discriminatory arbitrary divisions are eliminated violence will be less. Do you see people fighting over the choice of food? People don't simply start a fight. They start a fight only if a new group arises that threaten the well being of the group.
He was kicked out of Mecca because he insulted their gods and because he was perceived as a social problem. Muslims are also doing the same, aren't they(Mansoor Al Hallaj would well have been a prophet), from the moment they got power? The ISIS is also doing the same.
I think this sums up the opinion of Islam by the civilized world right now. This is a statement from a speech by U.K Prime Minister David Cameron on August 29, when the terrorist threat level was raised to 'severe.'
"The root cause of this threat to our security is quite clear. It is a poisonous ideology of Islamist extremism that is condemned by all faiths and by all faith leaders. It believes in using the most brutal forms of terrorism to force people to accept a warped world view and to live in an almost medieval state. A state in which its own citizens would suffer unimaginable brutality, including barbaric beheadings of those who refuse to convert to their warped version of Islam; the enslavement and raping of women; and the widespread slaughter of Muslims by fellow Muslims. And, of course, the exporting of terrorism abroad.
"So this is about a battle between Islam on the one hand and extremists who want to abuse Islam on the other.It is absolutely vital that we make this distinction between religion and political ideology. Islam is a religion observed peacefully and devoutly by over 1 billion people. It is a source of spiritual guidance which daily inspires millions to countless acts of kindness.
"Islamist extremism is a poisonous political ideology supported by a minority. These extremists, often funded by fanatics living comfortably far away from the battlefields, pervert the Islamic faith as a way of justifying their warped and barbaric ideology."
After the video of another beheading of an American civilian, Steven Sotloff, circulated on the Internet yesterday, this statement was released:
"We cannot find proper words to express the horror we feel at this gruesome killing. We Muslims cannot find ways even to express the way we feel about this criminal group called ISIS." – Leaders of the American Muslim community
http://www.abna.ir/english/service/amer … story.html
Unfortunately for Islamic adherents, the picture of Islam the world is seeing is the terrorist cult which purports to act in the name of all Islam and the teaching in the Quran.
OK thanks for replying- please quote this from Qur'an where have u read this- individual act is not an Islamic teaching
Words are meaningless, actions are everything. I believe the Koran speaks to this.
actions of general people cannot be compared to the actions of a prophet.
the general people will try their best to follow the prophet but cannot get to that level. so when you judge by actions please judge the actions of the prophet and not just a general person.You mean the actions of a so called prophet who married a 7 year old and waited a full two years before having sex with her?
yes ... that's exactly the man i'm talking about.
don't forget to lookup records of ages of marriages of others in the west. you'll be surprised.One would think a prophet would know better? Are you then propelled to marry 7 year olds and wait two years to consummate the marriage?
I can be specific, but I cannot be brief, in explaining what I dislike about Islamic teachings.
I actually did buy a book that explains the Quran and it's teachings....because my sane and logical mind and compassionate heart simply could not accept that any group describing itself as a Religion with a god.....could be so evil, hateful, barbaric and savage. I wasn't really all that familiar with people who had a god who ordered them to terrorize, torture and murder human beings. Or for that matter, put suicide bombers on some kind of pedestal like heroes for blowing up masses of people in the name of some religion.
This is totally and completely against everything I believe in and know about the beauty and love of life. The God I learned about was all-loving, forgiving and compassionate. He wasn't a lunatic who thirsted for blood and the heads of His people, for choosing their own beliefs..
Also, all that seems to be known about this "Mohammed" is that he was an illiterate, perverted camel farmer, who raped little girls and smoked (or ate) a lot of peyote. So, it's not surprising that he "heard voices" and thought it was God speaking to him. The odd thing is that he couldn't write...so he had to memorize every word he heard in order to have someone write the quran for him? That's a bit strange to begin with...wouldn't you say?
I didn't recognize anyone god-like in the Quran text....just a lot of anger, hatred and killing. You claim it's the same god as all other religions, but this simply cannot be the case. The god I learned of BLESSED people with children to love and protect and nurture. Your Allah tells you to KILL your own children as in Honor killings? Slice off the head of your own child? Egregious.. Preposterous and ludicrous. WHY, would a god create people just to have them slaughtered for one ignorant reason or another?
The god of my youth instructed men to treat women with tenderness and respect, placing their needs before their own. Men were to love, honor and protect their wives. Muslims make it clear that women are nothing but slaves and property who have no rights and must be mistreated.....denied education and freedoms. Muslim men cut off the limbs of women and throw acid in their faces. This is about as sick as it gets.
Be honest and realistic, Kashif.....You really don't expect anyone with any degree of intelligence, common sense or love of life to LIKE islamic teachings, do you? I suspect your question is a joke....isn't it.
There you have it, kashif....."Ask, and you shall receive." You ASKED, I gave you an answer. Any more questions?Mohammed smoked peyote? Isn't that indigenous to the New World?
"peyote" may be a somewhat contemporary term, but it is used for one & the same-- "mescal"....which can be found in your dictionary. Been around since the beginning of time. A natural hallucinogen.
Mescal is derived from a plant in Mexico. You should probably be able to locate that in your dictionary.
If you want to dislike Islam, Mohammed or whatever. That's your choice. But, you should use facts when presenting your case. You shouldn't just make stuff up.Emile.....Thank you so much for your kindness. I am well aware of what "mescal" is and where it grows. I LIVED in Mexico for 2 years. If you would read my comment again, I used "mescal" as a way to explain that "peyote" is (a hallucinogen.)...and "yes" again, "peyote" is somewhat a newer term, as I said, but it does refer in general, to a wild plant (hallucinogen)
I beg your pardon, but I made nothing up. The information on the man called Mohammed was shared by a young former Muslim who spoke at a University in Georgia, 2 or 3 years ago. I attended a series of lectures there and some things that I learned have stayed with me. That's all. I have contributed all I care to on this particular thread. I have just attempted to read further comments by the op, but I usually refuse to translate as I read since I haven't the time. So much for that.
You are correct that only facts should be used..Unnecessary for you to remind me, but thank you anyway. ..and Some of us should probably know a few facts before we jump to lecture another adult. But then, I could be wrong. Please have a peaceful night.fpherj48 : i think you've been reading the wrong books and talking to the wrong people. Islam is not the way you have described it. I encourage you to read more...
Am I also hearing and seeing things every single day in our newspapers and live videos where ISIS are invading the towns and lives of people who simply believe differently than they do? Is it my "imagination" that we have seen photos of Islamist Savages holding the severed heads of Christians (whom they refer to as "Infidels")? Is this your PEACEFUL religion?
I am reading well-documented books by scholars and other intelligent individuals, many who are former Muslims or have been terrorized and tortured by these murdering thugs.
I am not reading the "wrong" books. I am seeing and hearing what Muslims are boldly showing the world. They hate, they terrorize, oppress, torture, murder, rape and then CELEBRATE, laugh and dance on the blood of their victims......They WANT to be feared and hated. Their lives are dedicated to every manner of savagery.
Are you seriously trying to justify this? Do you really expect any Non-Muslim to listen to your foolish and deceitful insistence that THIS IS NOT ISLAM?
Then tell us please.....WHO are these Muslims who represent Islam? You fear them so intensely, you dare not speak.See its not that easy to understand ... you see muslims beheading others in your media ... I see innocent people being killed by american drones. I am not here to fight or argue... i'm here to discuss.
Walk with me through the west border of Pakistan and hear the stories of people who are filled with anger and hate against America because their house was bombed by drones which killed their fathers / mothers / sisters / brothers ... going to war and stepping in has done nothing for America. Try putting yourself in their shoes for a moment. here's a little scenario for you.
A child is born ... when he is 10 years old the bombings started and killed his entire family. All he hears is the american drone killed your family. All he sees for the next 10 years is bombs and bodies everywhere... they don't have easy access to weapons so they make knives and swords to protect themselves. if he has seen blood and guts lying on the road half of his life do you really expect that boy to become a good and decent person? It's impossible... he will become a savage. this war has ruined generations on this side of the world, and things like this don't go away fast. it ends a few generations after the war ends.
You may think there are so many muslims in america and so many have been caught by the authorities who were trying to create some kind of havoc. I would advise you to watch the HBO program called "The newburgh sting"... it might tell you some things you may not know already.
there is an old history of violence between shia and sunni muslims. I have many shia friends and they have many sunni friends. we all live peacefully together in the same city and enjoy dinners at each others houses... but there are people who can be bought ... a bomb is placed and one of the two who took the money say I did it... it starts a war. this has been done in quetta, pakistan a number of times... i have talked with journalists of the city and they say the same thing ... we live peacefully until a bomb explodes ... these are funded by countries which i don't need to name but also include muslim countries. they fight their wars on our soil. the poverty level is so high in the region that people accept money from wherever it comes from so they can feed their families... i've heard people have planted bombs for as low as $30.
its very easy to point fingers and blame people for what they are doing ... i know a minority of muslims are doing wrong ... but that doesn't represent the majority, nor does it represent Islam...
i've seen so many movies where american soldiers come back traumatized by what they have had to do in situations of war ... I know they are only movies but since there are so many incidents i am assuming it does happen to a number of soldiers. they do things they would not want to talk about and would never do those things in their lives ... the soldiers in the end leave the place ... what kind of frame of mind do you think a local would be in after such an incident who cannot even leave that place.
please try to understand that it is people we are talking about ... they are not savages. they are people with very little means of survival, living under circumstances no human would want to live in. something we cannot even begin to imagine.
the fault lies with leaders of countries not the people. they do not help. they do not support. everyone is bought and they turn their heads when required.arksys...If any part of what you write is factual....if ALL of it or none of it is true......How are you explaining what your people do to their OWN people in the same country?....and so shamefully, all in the name of a god you call Allah? Am I to accept your god is all about suffering, pain, and death of the cruelest form and this is perfectly acceptable? Your god is not at all about kindness and goodness and love...but the very opposite of this. Why would I or any Non-muslim wish to READ or attempt to understand this corrupt, dangerous and destructive book that orders you to kill, behead, treat women as though they are lower than snakes. The ultimate of insults is how Muslims mistreat and abuse the very human beings who give them life and bring them into the world..WOMEN...... This is not a god....anyone can see you worship a demon, but call him a god.
It's very nice of you I'm sure to attempt to defend your Islam....and try to make others think it is something other than what we can SEE and hear for ourselves....but I'm afraid, until the "so-called" good, peaceful Muslims (if they exist) rise up with all power and strength and tenacity....take control of their countries and create better lives for all it's people......then how are we to believe you? If as you say the poverty drives this evil.....there is no reason these countries must live in such poverty. Your leaders live in castles of gold and gems. I'm sorry, Sir......I do not understand. I only understand respect for life.fpherj : yes it is very sad to hear about such things... i keep wondering where the brotherhood has gone, where the unity of people has gone, where the truth has gone. but it is bitter fact that we have to swallow. Time changes and people change with it ... The Quran however stays the same. It was the same in the most peaceful times in history and it was the same during the time of hitler.
They don't do it in the name of Allah. maybe i didn't explain myself well enough. it is shown to be in the name of Allah ... so that emotions of people roar and havoc is created.
My God is about kindness and goodness and love. There is a lot of it if you really try to look beyond what you already know. I won't blame you if you can't look past it, its your choice. my duty was to inform you... and that is done.
have you ever really talked to a muslim woman? the statements you make seem like you have.
did you ever read the hadith which said "who comes after Allah and the Prophet?" the prophet replied "your mother" after that "your mother" and after that "your mother" and after that "your father" ... you cannot comprehend the status of a woman in islam. It was once said by the prophet that if you knew what God has in store for women then all the men would want to born a woman.
you have absolutely no idea about the real islam ... which is why i encouraged you to read in the first place.
"If as you say the poverty drives this evil.....there is no reason these countries must live in such poverty. Your leaders live in castles of gold and gems."
yes our leaders live in castles and and gems ... so do yours. we have corrupt leaders and so do you. if there is no reason for third world countries like ours to live in such poverty then please tell me why you have so many people living in the streets? you are a first world country ... I remember seeing a documentary of NYC where a woman was sitting on the street and she saw 4-5 stray dogs on the road with her. At the end of the day people volunteered to take the dogs home and she said she was left on the street...
A country where dogs are more important than people ... you may understand respect for life but you don't have respect for life.I suspect that documentary was a fraud. There certainly are homeless people, but for the vast majority it was there choice. There are all kinds of shelters for those who want to get in doors. The difference between your leaders and ours (I'm not American) is that our leaders down get to keep their houses when there term in office is finished or when they are voted out. In a few years Obama has to move out of the white house and take nothing with him. That's a rather stark comparison to the Saudi family wouldn't you say? Notice how well women are treated in Saudi Arabia? Not even allowed to drive.
I often talk to Muslims who say women are treated better then men, then we have girls being shot in the face for going to school. Sorry, doesn't fly. I read a while ago what happens to the husbands money in Islamic countries, doesn't go to the wife, everyone but right?Obviously a fraud - you will not agree to anything i say.
the same applies to our country but the leaders a fraudsters who keep coming back in power... if you look at the world news you might know we are all protesting against it peacefully.
fyi - saudi arabia follows a kingdom system. the house is the property of the king ... like the queen of england and her palaces.
women drive in other islamic countries... saudi has set its own rules. why it doesn't allow women to drive ... i have no idea.
umm ... my sister is lecturer at a well reputed university here and successfully completed her Phd in 1998. getting shot in the face for going to school is a ridiculous accusation. I hope you are not talking about that brainwashed girl called malala.
according to islamic law the man's money is the wife's money. the husband has no right over the money the wife earns ... she can choose to do whatever she wants with it. This is the rule. please don't ramble on about what you heard people do. if they do something different ... they are wrong.Brainwashed? So Malala just thinks she was shot in the face by the Taliban trying to get to school?
http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/world/m … 18407.html
4:11:
"Allah enjoins you about [the share of inheritance of] your children: A male's share shall equal that of two females -- in case there are only daughters, more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind. And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half -- and if the deceased has children, the parents shall inherit a sixth each, and if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third, and if he has brothers and sisters then the mother's share is the same one-sixth. [These shares shall be distributed] after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by him (the deceased). You know not who among your children and your parents are nearest to you in benefit. This is the law of Allah. Indeed Allah is wise, all knowing."
4:12:
"You shall get half of what your wives leave, if they die childless. But if they do have children, your share shall then be a quarter of what they leave after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by her. And they (your wives) shall have a quarter of what you leave, if you die childless. But in case you have children, they shall then get one-eighth of what you leave, after carrying out any will made by you or payment of any debt owed by you (the deceased). And if a man or a woman is made an heir on account of his [or her] kalalah relationship [with the deceased] and he [or she] has one brother or sister, the brother and sister shall each receive a sixth and if they be more than two, they shall then share in one-third, after carrying out any will that had been made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by him -- without harming anyone. This is a command from Allah and Allah is all-knowing, most forbearing."
4:176:
"They ask you. Say: Allah enjoins you about your kalalah heirs that if a man dies childless and he has only a sister, she shall inherit half of what he leaves; and if she dies childless, then her brother shall be her heir; and if their are two sisters, they shall inherit two-thirds of what he [or she] leaves. If there are many brothers and sisters, the share of each male should be that of two females. Allah makes [His commands] clear to you, so that you do not err. Allah has knowledge of all things."
At the very least one should be honest. Women and girls get half of what the men and boys get. Half? So please don't be going on about how respectful Islam is to women.have you ever wondered why you only see malala? what about the girl sitting next to her in the van... what about the other girls? she is a normal case in pakistan after the effects of the "war on terror". there is nothing special about her... once again were are talking about peoples actions.
you are right that women get a lower share ... if they are married their husbands receive from his parents too and the family still gets 1 whole share ... its complicated math not plain old simple math... and it works.
spiritually women have a much higher status than men ... but those are things you will probably not accept.It works? Sure, if your a man it works. If your parents die the boys get twice as much as the girls, that works for you?
Malala was targeted because she was outspoken and they wanted to shut her up. A young girl gets shot 3 times in the head for wanting to go to school and you say she was brainwashed?
You have to be careful RadMan.
'Shot in the face' - these stories are only given to us by Western Media who have a vested interest in propagating hate towards the 'preferred distraction'
When we talk about a man shooting his daughter in the face and the individual is a westerner then we tell the story from the perspective that the individual in question is a criminal who did not act according to the laws of our society.
When we in the west talk about the shooting in the face and the individual in question is of middle east descent all of a sudden the western media tries to paint the incident as if it were supported fully by everyone and everything in Islamic society.
In fact there is no indication at all that the individual shooter was or was not punished for his act by the society he lives in. No one mentions that one way or another.
How do we know the shooter wasn't executed and CNN just terminated the coverage before that fact was revealed? We don't know that. CNN and FOX provide no background information what so ever for these incidents.
CNN and Fox as well as their sponsors, corporate and otherwise, are all proven liars. I find it AMAZING that anyone believes them. If an individual that you knew lied constantly to you how long would it be before you told that person to take a hike?
How long would it be before you stopped listening to them?
I think this chapter in the Quran applies to you and most of the people in this thread.
Note: there is no killing involved.
109 - Al Kafiroon
Say, “O disbelievers, (1) I do not worship that which you worship, (2) Nor do you worship the One whom I worship. (3) And neither I am going to worship that which you have worshipped (4) Nor will you worship the One whom I worship. (5) For you is your faith, and for me, my faith.” (6)
Peace.Hey, your barking up the wrong tree with that. You need to first show that the Muslims who are killing each other over who took over after Mohammad past away.
people are not my concern... the religion is.
its quite simple to understand. if you don't like it then choose to ignore and do your thing.
yes there are a thousand issues in the islamic society... there are thousands in yours too... if we continue talking about your people do this and your people do that, then it will never end. if we talk about the rules, then it may come to a reasonable conclusion.The problem is you are trying to convince non-Muslims that Islam is a peaceful or should be peaceful religion, but you should attempting to convince Muslims of that first. Once we see the peace we will except that you are correct. I call this cleaning your own backyard before boasting how beautiful it is.
Rad Man - you are right here. my backyard is not clean, neither can i clean it in my lifetime.
“Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself.”
~ Rumi
The journey into yourself takes a lifetime too ... i would rather spend my time there.
The western media only reports those facts (or some semblance of fact) that propagate their agenda.
This is why Westerners are so hell bent on blowing up Islam. They only tell the western audience about the very worst of it. No where in western media did they mention that in Pakistan (and other Islamic nations) they have a festival every year wherein they slaughter a bull and distribute the meat to those poor within their communities for free. I seen a video of this festival - actually looks like a good time.
Americans do nothing but complain bitterly about 'useless welfare cases' whenever you wish to discuss helping the poor. They treat their poor like garbage and cops shoot them for sleeping on the rocks such as they did in New Mexico recently. They think that health care should be denied if you have no money. I wonder how many Jesus refused to heal cause the had no money eh? Americans sure don't seem to know anything about 'Christian compassion for those less fortunate than you' - they could learn something from this Islamic festival - if they were even aware of it's existence that is..
And every time an American drone kills some innocent civilians they are always portrayed as 'terrorists' - even though America can in no way shape or form PROVE that the people they killed were 'terrorists'.
America, a country governed by cronic liars, tells us they have 'evidence' of this or that atrocity yet will not present this evidence to anyone and tells us to 'trust them' - yeah right that will be the day.
Then an investigation is held by the UN and low and behold turns out American claims were totally false and misleading to begin with. Want an example: The Syrian 'Chemical weapons' attacks that America instantly tried to blame on Syrian government but the UN investigation quickly revealed that it was the American backed rebels who committed the atrocity as a false flag. The UN investigation then quickly revealed that the supplies for the attack probably came from Saudi Arabia.
So all this is why you should never accept a single media source as the sole source of information and instead read each article from a variety of different sources.
America (The Government) has too many lies to answer for before I will accept anything they say at face value again.Just to enhance on some of the good things we do.
Our festival is called the Eid. We have 2 a year. One after a month of fasting (small eid) and the other 2months and 10 days later (big Eid).
We fast for a month in ramadan to realize how the poor live in this world. Its also for spiritual cleanliness. It is also like a bonus month for us as all good deeds are multiplied several times when written in our books. fasting in ramadan is one of the 5 pillars of Islam.
The meat from the animals on Big Eid is divided into 3 parts.
1 part we keep for ourselves.
1 part goes to our blood relatives
1 part goes to the poor.
I have relatives abroad who cannot get access to meat as easily so they just send money and tell me to distribute all their parts to the poor. My father is no longer in this world but we also sacrifice a part for him and distribute all the meat to the poor. When my father was alive he used to do the same for his late parents and each of his children. This way a lot of food is distributed to the poor.
Charity is also a pillar in Islam. you will notice if you read the quran that in most places two words are almost always together "Salah & Zakat" .. Prayer and Charity. they go hand in hand and have equal importance. Prayer is another pillar.
the main zakat payment is 2.5% on all of the assets you have had for over a year. so if you have money lying in the bank for over a year you have pay a minimum of 2.5% to the poor. there are many issues in payment of zakat but this is the crux of it. Zakat is the idea of spreading the wealth.
There is no official check and balance for this... it is between you and God. I have not met a muslim who is not worried about payment of zakat ... and we normally give extra just incase we missed something out.
If you have nothing to give yet you want to give ... a smile to a stranger is also considered charity.
these are some of the rules which you may not have heard of.Thanks for sharing these details.
I have always felt that a society has a moral and ethical responsibility to help those members of that society that are less fortunate.
Here, in the west, we do not always do this. Even in Canada, which is normally considered a more compassionate country when it comes to the poor - does not actually have a good record when it comes to dealing with poverty and poverty based issues.
We could learn so much from each other if only we stopped listening to the rich fools we mistakenly elected to represent us.
Regardless of faith, God gave us all free will - the ability to choose our own path. this is how I know we are not slaves nor meant to be slaves. God would not have given us free will if that was our sole purpose.
I chose to reject the hate being propagated by both the Mullahs on one side and our own media and government on the other. I will not let others tell me who my enemies are. God wants me to choose my own path and not be a follower.
There are many on both sides who would kill me for this thought process I think.
Hi there, Mr. Olsen. I do not think I have had the pleasure of exchanging ideas with you before. It is nice to meet you here.
While much of your pessimism is understandable, I wish I could agree with your so-called “example” but I can not. It is impossible to agree when your specific statement about official UN reports is false. It seems your untrue statement in your post is not supported by any source other than you. Please permit me to pass along some facts extracted from actual UN reports.
The “Report on the Alleged Use of Chemical Weapons in the Ghouta Area of Damascus on 21 August 2013” released by the UN in September 2013 concluded chemical weapons were used “on a relatively large scale.” However, it contains no opinion as to which faction in the conflict was responsible. Since you made the claim without actually reading the report, it might help to read it now just to get the facts straight. {1}
Later, at a press conference on December 13, 2013, Åke Sellström, head of the U.N. chemical inspection teams in Syria, was repeatedly asked about who was responsible for the use of chemical weapons. He and three other lead investigators “emphasized that the question of attribution would require more efforts and resources.” {2}
The following month, Mr. Sellström, without categorically saying which side was to blame stated it was, at least for him, "difficult to see" how the opposition could have "weaponized" the toxins used. {3}
I take no position on who is to blame, Mr. Olsen. I merely pass along the official reports as I know them.
It seems the UN has never stated who was responsible for the chemical attacks in March and August 2013. You, on the other hand, seem to base your opinion on UN reports that do not exist.
The Human Rights Council (HRC) of the United Nations informed the General Assembly on February 12, 2014 that there was not enough evidence to determine who was responsible. In a summary of the “Report of the independent international commission of inquiry on the Syrian Arab Republic,” the HRC confirmed, “Chemical weapons, specifically sarin, were found to have been used in multiple incidents during the conflict. In no incident was the commission’s evidentiary threshold met with respect to the perpetrator.” [Edit: Underscore added for educational purposes.] {4}
In conclusion, sir, your entire statement is false. It is untrue to claim, “the UN investigation quickly revealed that it was the American backed rebels who committed the atrocity as a false flag.” The UN has NEVER issued a report revealing American backed rebels used chemical weapons.
Apparently, you feel we Americans are governed by chronic liars who are reluctant to present evidence to anyone. “America, a country governed by cronic liars, tells us they have 'evidence' of this or that atrocity yet will not present this evidence to anyone and tells us to 'trust them' - yeah right that will be the day.” Well, Mr. Olsen, should we just trust you? Instead, since you made the claim, why not show us the UN report revealing American backed rebels were found responsible for these atrocities. I would be happy to read it.
Again, Mr. Olsen, I am pleased to have met you. I hope you enjoy a pleasant evening.
{1} http://www.un.org/disarmament/content/s … gation.pdf
{2} http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs// … ns.doc.htm
{3} http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ … SF20140305
{4} http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/Re … -65_en.docSo then where did the American 'evidence' that John Kerry insisted so strongly he had that proved 110% certain that the Syrian government was behind these attacks?
Hi again, Mr. Olsen.
Thank you, so much, for your latest response in which you said, “So then where did the American 'evidence' that John Kerry insisted so strongly he had that proved 110% certain that the Syrian government was behind these attacks?”
Apparently, you originally posted a false statement. If you have knowledge of a UN report that supports your claim then simply reveal it. If you agree that your statement is false then simply admit it. You either made a mistake or you did not. Which is it? No straw men, red herrings or evasion tactics are necessary. Only truthful integrity is needed.
I am, however, perplexed by your reply! I wonder why you bring up John Kerry’s statement when we are discussing Robin Olsen’s statement.
Never the less, I hope your summer has been fun for you. I have not seen much summer here in New York so I am hoping for a heat wave in September!
Religious discussions can elicit all kinds of emotions -- its best to steer clear of them. ( I should follow my on advice!)
David....I can agree with you to some degree. However, Mr. Habib asked a question and in light of the current & massive killing & insane bombing (Hamas/Israel)..as well as Isis/Iraq..Driving the kurds from their homes, into mountain tops with no food or water.....BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT OF THE SAME ISLAMIC SECT AS THE SUNNIS....his question, regardless of extremely poor timing.....should receive a few responses.
Yes, I do believe he may be kind enough to explain to the world's "infidels" why Muslims, who follow the Islamic Religion, live, breathe and strive to kill and kill some more. I appreciate being informed.Good posts. The OP's response to my post obviously shows he is in some sort of denial.
I also agree with gitachud's post and am outta here. pds.....I want to believe that Mr. Habib will take the time to respond to my valid points and perhaps try to clear up what he thinks are misconceptions, most of the world has on Islam. If he does not respond in a timely matter, I too am outta here. I want to keep up on the nightly news programs coming out of Iraq and Israel. The massive destruction and slaughter of innocents by crazed lunatics is rising and as usual, our Country has had to step in with assistance.
but no one asks your country to step in ... why don't you just build your economy and stop wasting money on war? why do you stay in the "oil region" and not help the somalian's instead?
No one asks our country to step in?? Irfan! What would possess you to say something so ludicrous?! Any and every Nation that gets their self into some sort of mess..begins whining, screaming and crying, "Where is America? Why don't they help us?" Please. You were beginning to sound like a rational human being until you made that utterly ridiculous statement. You insult my intelligence.
Yes, we have our poor and homeless.....and our own problems. MOST especially crooked Politicians. I do not deny what is evident and true. But I'm Blessed to live in America. At the rate people from other countries continue to traipse into America, everyone obviously WANTS to live here.
We need not worry that we will be stoned or imprisoned or beheaded for making our own choices, speaking our mind, going to school. Stop please Irfan...denying that Islam is a maniacal religion. Do you think we are all blind, deaf, dumb and plain stupid? Your high priests (whatever you call them) have stated loudly and clearly that the penalty for leaving Islam is death. We know of women in prison awaiting their death because THEY WERE THE TRAGIC VICTIMS OF RAPE!! How does a human justify PUNISHING THE VICTIM OF A CRIME...BUT NOT THE PERPETRATORS? That practice speaks volumes of the ignorance that abounds within Islamist beliefs. Saving "Honor" of a family by killing (stoning to death) a rape victim?? Yes, of course, this is rational and makes all the sense in the world. Whatever you Neanderthals say.
Save your strength, Irfan. I am always willing to listen to anyone and discuss a topic, but my opponent must not be a blatant Liar. I won't tolerate that. Have a nice day. I have heard enough of your BULL......I don't know what they call BULL in your country, but I really don't want to know. I know enough about the savagery and egregious ignorance to know BULL when I read it or hear it.
Nice try. I'm sure your Allah is proud of you. You should marry a nice American Protestant woman. She would straighten your derriere out in an instant. Just start out by telling her she must bow to her husband, cover herself entirely from head to toe in the latest lovely and fashionable black burka, 24/7, never speak to a man in public, not drive, she may not be educated, and if she steps out of line just once...she's a dead duck. Please....take a selfie waving Good Bye and send it to me. May you rest in peace.I do not recall a single country ever begging for American help the way you say they do, present some hard evidence, perhaps a link to the documents you are referring to.
I DO recall illegitimate rebel groups with no recognition asking America for help and weapons, etc. but these are not 'countries'.
And since these rebel groups have no official representation by the people it would be a VERY big stretch of the imagination to ASSUME that a 'country' asked for your 'help'The first thing you assumed is that I directed my comment to anyone but Irfan. It was my specific response to Irfan's specific comments to me. If a reply is forthcoming, it should be from him. Thank you anyway.
fpherj :
I honestly don't know, which bubble you live in...
A poll report by BBC (if you believe BBC) taken on June 3,2014 states: "The poll also finds that views of the United States have worsened around the world, led by sharp increases in negative views among citizens of Spain (up 19 points), Germany (up 18 points) and Brazil (up 15 points). "
"Negative views of the USA are also up in all three African countries surveyed—up 13 points
in Kenya, ten points in Ghana, and seven points in Nigeria. The proportions of positive
ratings in these three countries have concurrently decreased averages of two digits. "
if you want to review the report : http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/ … g-poll.pdf
it seems to me you have a lot of emotions attached with your country. I know it may be hard for you to digest when you think you are helping someone and being accused of the opposite, but i would encourage you to take a step back and go through the details with an open mind.
If america really is helping everyone ... why is there a negative? especially from countries like canada and australia?
My australian friends have a saying "whenever america wants to boost its economy, it goes to war".
Its not just my word anymore.Actually Canada is rather fond of America, we don't always agree, but we are thankful that they are our neighbours. We are different and yet the same. When for instance we here that some countries don't allow girls to be educated and kill them if they try we step in.
Know we could simply leave the middle east alone and hope for the best, but you guys have groups like ISIS attempting to take over the world and have already threatened North America. Should we wait for another 9/11? Should we watch the images on TV of people in the middle east rejoicing in the streets while building fall over here.i guess you didn't read the BBC report.
I cannot keep discussing if you don't want to read or believe facts. you are in the minority of canadians who think well of america.You may want to have a look at when and how Canada has help the US in peace keeping missions. I'm certainly not in the minority. Canadians love America and you can find most of us vacationing or retiring in the States. We don't always understand their healthcare system and we sometimes find American's brash, but we do come and go and most of us on either side of the boarder don't see the difference in the people.
You clearly have no idea what your talking about.I spent 6 years in the Canadian Army. I have conducted many NATO exercises and have multiple medals for various peacekeeping missions. I cannot EVER recall a SINGLE AMERICAN soldier ever being present on any peacekeeping mission I have ever been on. In fact, the US has always specifically REFUSED to place their soldiers under UN command.
The US cannot declare a 'peacekeeping' mission then invade foreign countries. Peacekeeping is only done by the UN when it is done properly and the US has always cronically refused to allow any other nationality or the UN to command American soldiers in the field.
I know ... I was there - there were no Americans to be found.Yes, they have different roles. Would you prefer having Iran next door. Do we feel as Canadians that America may at any time invade us. We have tones of oil and natural resources and yet they are not a threat? And to be fair if it wan't for America we would have been overrun by Russia a long time ago.
Iran has never invaded a neighbor to my knowledge since I have been alive (50 years now)
Iraq was the aggressor in the war between those two nations. Iran was defending itself, which they have as much right to do as you do.
While I would never live in a society dominated by a faith-based tribunal of any kind - I fear an American invasion to steal our resources. Iran would probably be an alright neighbor to have.
Remember this: Whatever 'rights' you think you have - your enemies have the EXACT same rights.
Actually, most Canadians consider the American government to be untrustworthy and basically a threat to world peace. Some even consider them to be the biggest threat we have faced in the last 20 or 30 years or so.
Most Canadians consider American people with fondness but many of us feel they are mislead, deceived and basically confused, especially over what is happening within their own country. The constant foreign wars keeps the people in a constant state of distraction and many of them have no idea how close to the edge of the cliff their country really is.
The Canadian government is run by spineless pro-American conservatives who appoint thieves to our unelected senate and basically accept the word of the American Government at face value.
Yeah, I'm Canadian tooRight, most Canadian are in love with Obama. What does that tell you?
Obama was popular when he was first elected. But like all American Presidents, we are only spectators, we do not vote in their elections and their elections have no real meaning to a Canadian unless the specific Canadian creates some sort of fictional association (some of us DO have a very hard time remembering exactly which country we are in).
I think most Canadians lost that warm feeling before his first term was up. I think most Americans did too but for some really strange reason he won another term in office. Interesting that is...
In fact, the has happened twice now. George W. Bush had the worst rating as well as the end of his first term and still won re-election...interesting that someone that is generally considered incompetent and unreliable should win a presidential election I think... very interesting. Worthy of further investigation - but that's America's responsibility - if they are satisfied with a sudo democracy then who are we to argue?I'd have to agree. They are hard to understand. Most of them seem to feel they are a Christian nation and yet don't want to help everyone gain access to healthcare. The more "Christian" they get the more right they seem to go. We pay per person far less than they pay per person for healthcare and we all get it, yet they refuse to look and see what others are doing. My Dad just went through Chemo and radiation therapy, was given a ton of drugs for the side effects and never paid a dime.
But then again Harper was reelected.lol yeah Harper WAS re-elected. I don't know if he will be again.
Healthcare is a corporate issue down there. The health insurance companies spend millions on lobbying and propaganda that plays on America's fears to ensure no such fair health care system is ever put into place. It is more about their profits than providing adequate health care for the people of America. The American people don't realize that regardless on Private or public health care they are still going to pay for it all so in the end it actually makes sense to make every effort to reduce their own out of pocket expenses but this fact seems to have no impact on American thought processes regarding this issue.
American people get convinced that the concerns of some corporation should be their own concerns. If a health Insurance company that the average American citizen owns 0% of cannot make a profit somehow this becomes the concerns of all Americans and must be addressed by the government.
I am hoping your Dad came though OK? If not then my condolences to you and yours.
I agree with viking... I have lived in america for about a year and i think the people were mostly warm hearted. its the government which creates the bad impression.
It's quite possible I live in a "bubble" of some sort. I don't know which one, but even if I did know, it's really not your business nor your concern where my bubble is.......Now, are we done playing silly children's games? Do you feel better? I hope so, Irfan.
I did not claim that "Americans" are loved. I'm well aware we are not. I said that everyone and their damned Uncle wants to LIVE here.....and further, they DO want our help when they're in trouble....or at least what we can give them or do for them.
You should also be aware the Americans are good and sick and tired of our Country GIVING to other countries while....as both you and I concurred, we have poverty and starving people.
I'm not in the Middle East.....nor was I in Viet Nam...nor any war. Our Military is/was. If any of this were up to me, we would NEVER have war.....anywhere, with anyone. But that's not reality now is it?
I pay absolutely ZERO attention to POLLS. I'm surprised you do. We could take a Poll every hour round the clock in every area of the planet and each Poll would vary IN MANY WAYS TO MANY DEGREES.....continually. Surely, you are smart enough to know this. Polls......what a joke.
I also have not a single concern who has negative views of my country. Fine...that's OK with me...it's my country not yours or theirs. No one has to love my country. In fact I prefer they stay out and live in their own damned country where they rightfully belong. It's only important to me and my loved ones and fellow Americans that WE love our country....and anyone who doesn't should simply LEAVE. Good Bye, Adios, Sayonara, Ciao.
No, I don't want nor need any "reports." Thanks for the offer. I do all my own research and also insist that others do their own research. When readers ask me to supply sources, I ignore them. If anyone truly wants information, clarification or "proof"...they can search for themselves. I'm no one's gopher.
I don't feel badly that my country helps people who don't want to be helped. I have always maintained that we need to stay here...mind our own business, keep our noses out of other countries...LET THEM SETTLE THEIR OWN ISSUES AND WORK OUT THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. That may be the one and only thing we agree on Irfan......except that 96% of all governments are totally corrupt. Personally I don't see how we even THINK we can solve issues in other countries. We quite obviously have not begun to fix our own.
My mind is OPEN, my heart is open and quite needless to say...my mouth is open. I speak from where human beings should speak from....a combination of their mind, heart and spirit. Anyone who chooses not to hear what I have to say.....may walk away, plug their ears or otherwise ignore me.. BUT...they MAY NOT attempt to stifle me, force-feed me garbage I am too intelligent and intuitive to fall for.....and under no circumstances can their opposition discourage me. Often, I have been swayed to accept an alternate view/opinion wholeheartedly. I am not blindly stubborn to my own detriment.
When you reach my age, have lived through what I have lived through, experienced enough to be certain of who you truly are and what your worth is and can do the right things because they are THE RIGHT THINGS TO DO...WITHOUT CONSULTING AN AGE-OLD HISTORY BOOK TO LOOK UP RULES AND INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO BE HUMANE, COMPASSIONATE AND DECENT.
Perhaps one day, we will talk again, Irfan.......Peace, PaulaPaula,
I know we can't change the corrupt governments and people... it just seems like an impossible task. Truth is some are good at covering up their track and others are not. I hope one day all this greed will end.
LET THEM SETTLE THEIR OWN ISSUES AND WORK OUT THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. this is a good statement. I wish somehow it could be possible. I have lived in america for a while and i know they are not bad people, but it makes it impossible for me to convince the tribal people here when the bombings don't stop. Our tribal west coast has the most compassionate and accommodating yet the most hard headed people. they are the kind of people who will put their life on the line for a guest in their house. It's impossible to convince them that american has good people too. All i can do is share my stories with them and let it sink in if it will.
I don't want to see war and neither do you .. nor do most of the people in our nations ...
this whole conversation has taken a dip into talking about peoples actions rather than the original "What problems do you have with Islam"... yes Islam may have problems... but there is a path of discipline and well being in the midst... the only thing I want people to see is that there is a beauty in it. to follow or not is the individuals choice and none of my concern.
although our discussion did get a little rough ... i hope there are no hard feelings. certainly none from my side.
take care and God bless.
Salam, Irfan. Thank you for providing a link to the BBC poll.
With all due respect for Islam and for your beliefs, I must point out that you unfairly distort the world’s view of the US by selecting only negative statements about the USA from this BBC survey. You point to only six countries that have grown more negative in 2014 and you ignore all of the other countries that have reported having more positive views. It seems you have chosen to overlook many of the details of this study, which, in fact, reveals a substantial increase in positive views of the USA’s global influence since 2007. Perhaps you missed the following facts or, perhaps, you intentionally failed to mention them:
* The BBC Country Ratings Poll has only been conducted for 10 years. In the beginning, from 2005 until 2007, a majority of respondents reported unfavorable attitudes towards the USA “when negative views of the country significantly outnumbered positive ones.” {1}
* However, starting with President Obama’s election in 2008, positive views of the USA rose significantly until “positive views were at a high (44%, up 19 points since 2007) and outnumbered negative ratings concurrently at
a low (38%).” {2}
* You failed to mention that overall positive perceptions improved and negative views declined between 2008 to 2014. As a result, the USA’s net ratings average (mainly positive minus mainly negative ratings) in 11 long-term tracking countries declined over the last three years but in 2014 it is still more positive by over 20 percentage points than in 2007. {3}
* While 193 nations are members of the UN, only 23 took part in the 2014 survey. More than half of the nations polled reported more positive views than negative views. “Of the 23 countries surveyed about the USA’s influence in 2014, 12 countries hold positive views, nine hold negative views,”
{4}
* More than half (11 of 20 countries) survey both in 2013 and 2014 reported positive views of US influence greater than that country’s negative views. Globally, 42% of respondents were in favor of the US’s influence and 39% were not. “ On average, in the 20 tracking countries surveyed both in 2013 and 2014, 42 per cent of respondents hold positive views of the US influence in the world, while 39 per cent hold negative views.”{5}
Based upon the contents of this BBC survey, I suggest, Irfan, if I may use your own words, you should be the one to “take a step back and go through the details with an open mind.” You will learn how most countries are generally in favor of the role the US plays in the world. The fact that you disagree with the majority of long-term tracking countries, however, should not tempt you to ignore facts.
Many thanks for contributing to this discussion, Irfan. Thanks, too, for the link to the BBC survey. It clearly demonstrates how much the world’s view of US influence has improved over the last decade.
{1} http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/ … g-poll.pdf p.5
{2} Ibid.
{3} Ibid. p.6, graph Pt 2.
{4} Ibid. p.9.
{5} Ibid.
Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari urged the world on Wednesday to back his country against ISIS militants after the al-Qaeda offshoot released a video purportedly showing the beheading of a U.S. journalist kidnapped in Syria.
No one huh?Follow up reports state that the 'beheading' was a staged event and that this was not a journalist. I think most of these public internet based 'beheadings' are staged events designed to ensure western anger and hatred of the Islamic people. this is turn makes it far easier for the government to justify attacking said nations and organizations.
What follow up reports? Do you think the guys family was involved in the conspiracy?
Various different sites are starting to cover this in more detail. RT, Al Jazeria as well as some conspiracy and alternative media outlets.
You are not required to accept the reports. To be honest everything we read and hear from the media has to be accepted on faith alone unless you are willing to go the extra mile to research the news story for accuracy, etc. Not many are. normally we just accept what is being broadcast at face value (that is our failing as a people - we should always be asking questions IMO)
Even the alternative media outlets that claim journalistic integrity, no government influence etc are STILL propagating their own agenda.
Another reason why I read the same story from several points of view and several news sources.http://www.infowars.com/experts-james-f … kely-fake/
Not the best source but some interesting links and some interesting points they raise too.I didn't read but a few sentences until it said the video may have been faked with the killing taken place off camera. Ether way they still killed him. What's the difference?
how do you know he was killed. by reading the news or were you present when it happened? did he ever exist or was he made up?
the possibilities are endless.Wow.
Really?!?! His friends and family can sure tell you he existed.
And I agree with Rad. No matter how they killed him, he's still dead and if they had simply notified us of his execution, it would be just as tragic.then i assume you know his family personally. or you must have met them at least. If it really happened then it is surely a tragic loss.
A humble request : please don't believe every word the media says. They are paid to feed you lies.From Sandy Hook to James Foley. It's all just smoke and mirrors, eh? I think it's sad that you'd think so. The man's been in the news for over a year at least...seems a long time to carry an imaginary tale along.
but it would have FAR less effect on overall public opinion or the general desire for war.
From the second paragraph from the link provided.
“James Foley’s execution may have been staged, with the actual murder taking place off-camera,” reports the Telegraph.
'Off Camera'? and you believe that eh?
come on now... 'off camera'? what was the point of staging this 'execution' if they didn't actually execute him on camera?Just like Osama ... Found him and quickly disposed of him. The source of the alleged war on terror which lasted a decade. Dead and thrown into the ocean over night. Why? was he so contagious? Or was he killed in 2001 by mulla umar? I guess we will never know.
I was so happy just to hear the news that at least now the forces will be out and we can live in peace once again. But, I forgot we had to deal with the aftermath.What totally AMAZES me is how often people will fall for the exact same lie.
Over and Over and Over again...it is MADDENING!
Makes me question the intelligence of my fellow man.
CreeViking.....It would seem to me that nearly all the intelligent adults who participate in a forum, long ago ceased to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.....all make-believe childhood fantasies.
Thus, from what I understand, fiction and fantasy really don't have any merit in a forum of adult interest and serious discussion. on the other hand, in all fairness, I suppose your Fairy Tales serve as entertainment for the terminally bored and daffy. So, Thank you for presenting such a preposterous scenario......laughter is good for these individuals.Paula...
you may have heard in the news that there is a peaceful protest currently going on in my city...i have to keep checking the news to see if the roads have opened up so i can go to work.
while checking the news ... Imran khan says to some USA official (richard osborne i think)... to keep their nose out of pakistani politics and stop trying to declare who is right and who is wrong. then he goes on to say if i become the prime minister then i will not be a puppet of the USA like our current government.
its in the news today over here ... please have a look on your side and let me know what they say about imran khan. i have a suspicion he will be shown as a negative personality.Irfan, I will certainly search for this info....I can only say that I hope he is not shown in a negative light, because his attitude is music to my ears. Any nation that wishes to take care of itself under any and all circumstances.....and they are a PEACEFUL nation who will BAN terrorists and extremists....and take good care of their people.....is a Nation I admire!
thanks, he is the kind of leader our nation really needs. I hope its positive on your side too. some of my friends are fearing for his life because of the things he is saying. I just hope all goes smoothly, we cannot lose him.
As always...when I go off into the wide world of researching, I get a bit side-tracked and carried away. I read 2 different Bios on Imran. He's had an incredible education....for sure. What a Crickett Career! Then I had to look for "Crickett" because although I've heard of this sport, I know Zero about it. So, I read for another 20 minutes and I STILL know nothing about Crickett. Off to You Tube....I watched a game: Pakistan vs India, March 18th 2012. It was interesting, but now I REALLY want to know about the game. The only thing I learned by watching it was that Pakistani men are exceedingly handsome. ( I'm old...not yet dead)......I'll get to the Politics eventually. I need time. Lots of time. BTW....I think Pakistan was ahead when I left, but how would I know? I was rooting for them though!
Story of my life. I sometimes get lost in Wikipedia for hours.
Imran Khan is the man... 1992 world cup... imran's last match of his career ... we won.
qualities i liked about him :
he was the captain of our team. he despised another pakistani player called Javed Miandad who was a great batsman. but he knew that to win the world cup we needed to have Javed in the team. He chose to let go of his personal rivalry for the benefit of the country and played with Javed. this means nothing in politics but it shows character in a person.
his mother died of cancer a few years after the world cup. he came on tv and asked the people of pakistan to help him build a cancer hospital so the poor can have free treatment. he came out on the streets on the back of a simple van and multitudes of people surrounded him... they actually had to take the photo from a really tall building to cover the amount of people ready to give him something... women took off their jewellery and gave whatever they had ... then he was quiet. a few years later i hear imran khans grand opening of the cancer hospital which was in his mothers name (shaukat khanam) ... at the time it was the most advanced cancer hospital in the asian region and as promised 70% of the patients did not have to pay a penny/dime.
he is a man of his word and a hero of our nation. i have always and will always vote for him.
cricket...
12 players on each side.
Bowlers and batsmen
6 balls is one over
20 / 30 / 50 overs in a match for each side.
1 run is when you hit the ball and both batsmen run and get to the other side.
4 runs ... if the ball crosses the boundary line bouncing before the boundary
6 runs ... if the ball goes straight out of the boundary.
the goal of bowlers ... get them all out as quickly as possible
the goal of batsment ... score as many runs as possible or beat the other teams score before the set number of overs.
A good moment - search for highlights on "Shahid Afridi fastest 100".
sachin tendulkar ... indian batsman ... awesome.
wasim akram & waqar younis... the deadly W's - pakistan
rahul dravid... great all rounder - india
one of the fastests bowlers in the world ... shoaib malik. - pakistan
so many more...
the india and pakistan matches are the ones where both countries just have to win. ever since the partition of india and pakistan the cricket ground has become the war zone.
sorry i'm getting carried away.
I couldn't find anything negative about him. The news seems to be simple a description of events.
Yes Radman...and if you read the same current news I did it looks like it was from a News Agency from Britain. I probably didn't read it as thoroughly as you did, but what bit I read, did not sound "negative." The truth is, I have no frame of reference when the terminology gets into the (foreign) terms of their Religion and various sects, as well as their Political Hierarchy & various positions (cabinets) their laws......it's all so confusing to me. I feel I need a translator to explain all these things in order for me to fully comprehend what I'm reading. Know what I mean? Argh! The things I do in the name of education and awareness! No wonder the vast majority prefer to remain ignorant!
Knowing me, I will probably come away from this search with a burning desire to be a Crickett Expert....for whatever good that will do me?that's good ... at least its all neutral. thanks Rad Man.
You can only hope that he is cautious and has adequate personal security. There cannot be anyone who has forgotten Benazir. Her book, "Reconciliation" is one of my treasures. Never has there been a woman I respected and admired more. I actually grieved her assassination.......no connection nor relationship to me, my life nor my Country and yet I felt I knew her. It was a strange experience for me. You may not have even admired her, but I surely did. Once I mentioned her and how I revered her and I received a comment from a Muslim (Pakistani) on Hubpages who told me she was not the woman she appeared to be and her entire family was corrupt and blah blah blah......so I thanked him for the information, but honestly.......If you love to listen to Caruso sing Opera....do you really care if his father was a mobster? Everyone is just too touchy!!
Most pakistani's liked her... she was very similar to her father and her father was also admired by millions. Times magazine labelled him an evil genius ( i was told this by my father). He did a lot of good for the pakistani people ... i don't know why the army took over and hanged him.
I was too busy with my father's thoughts during the time of Benazir as he passed away only 5 days before her. There was an outrage in pakistan... my friends had to leave their cars in the middle of the road because of all the havoc in karachi. everyone suspected her husband Zardari for getting her killed and using sympathy votes to get into power, and pakistan has gone down the drain after that.
May her soul rest in peace, we need more women like her.and that's one thing i like about you guys... you look at the individual rather than the whole family.
Research requires more than American based media outlets.
If your cutsy little attempt at insult was supposed to deter me from posting then you have failed. I must say that a prime tactic of those with no facts is to resort to insults in order to silence opposing voices. It's a key tactic I look for when determining if the one I am talking to or listening to actually has any idea what they are talking about.
And for any American to be giving ANY opinion on anything that is going on in this world while your Police in Ferguson arrest journalists and threaten innocent unarmed American citizens with military assault rifles is pure hypocrasy.
You say that Islam is bad, etc while your own police murder the homeless (New Mexico) and your police in St. Louis and Ferguson are threatening innocents into silence with Assault rifles. All while your 'integrity filled media' lies to the population about what is going on.
Your focus and research efforts would be much better spent determining just how badly your government is lying to you and just how far your liberties have been eroded rather than wasting your time researching a distraction.AHHHH yes, and we hear yet again from our Canadian Robin.....who sings sweetly like the red-breasted bird."tweet tweet".....Listen UP, Robbie young man. ONE man and ONE man only on the face of this earth advised me and/or suggested what I should do. He was my precious Father, who passed away long ago, to my sorrow and dismay. Not another male may nor WILL ever be allowed to even attempt to do this. I have earned the right to do with MY TIME, whatever I damned well please.
"YOUR FOCUS AND EFFORTS WOULD BE MUCH BETTER SPENT DETERMINING HOW YOU HAVE PARALYZED YOUR HUMANITY WITH TERMINAL MISOGYNY." DESPAIR NOT YOUNG ROBIN....PERHAPS IN YOUR NEXT LIFE YOU WILL BE BLESSED TO BE OF THE SUPERIOR GENDER.
I do appreciate that I now realize what that gunk was that I stepped in last week while in Canada, Thanks for being so helpful.....and I LOVE being called "cutesy!" I would say you are cute too, but you're not.
OK with regards to your valid points please quote which valid history book u read which explains all your do called facts and if not u may live with what u said and be contended with it I just wanted an idea what u guys think my advice try to read Qur'an and history of Prpphet with some authenticuslim explanation and sourse I don't want u to remind what blood shed history other religions have like crusaders because I don't think it was to do with Christian teachings.That is all to u
- Rad Manposted 10 years ago
0Quran (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
Please also read from 4:88 to 4:94 along with what u quoted and understand context of revelation that it was told to Muslims of madima how to act when hypocritoes showed there open denial to promices they made earlier while in state of war and in that context to Muslims of Medina to fight in defence when required is better than to sit at home.Every ayat has a specific revelation story and time and reading without understanding context misleads specially Jehad related ayats thanks and my request when possible always read story behind that specific order to have better understanding Thanks
Kashif - Its always the same issues on hubpages. they never look at the context ... they only read 1 sentence. I wish they could learn further and find genuine issues, but it won't happen. Just like the people who asked for a miracle and after seeing the miracle they still did not believe.
What does the context matter. ISIS feels it's at war and is behaving as it was taught to by the Quran.
Osama bin laden kills 3,000.
Bush and Obama kill more than 2.6 Million.
Does context matter in this case?We are not talking about Bush or Obama are we? Because of what is said in the Quran, Groups like ISIS start holy wars that kill others.
BTW, where did you get 2.6 million?they can name them holy wars as much as they like ... but that is not what they are doing and would not be approved by any of the great leaders of islam. Unfortunately we don't have any decent leaders left. but these are also one of the signs that we are approaching the day of judgement. there will be 72 different sects of islam at the end.
I used to follow a site which gave numbers on the war on terror ... i stopped looking at it around 2012... it gave all the listed casualties, killed people etc etc. dont have the link anymore. the last time i checked the figure was 2.6 million in Pakistan / Afghanistan / Iraq ... Iraq had the highest figures of them all. these were recorded incidents ... unofficially they would be a lot more.
a similar site : http://icasualties.org/Iraq/Index.aspxWhere did you get 2.6 million?
The site you sent me listed 50152 death from 05 to 11 and it lists all death either by the hands of terrorist or armies.It was a similar site as I mentioned earlier which had the 2.6 million figure. Will share if I find it. The other site was from 2001-2012
ISIS is an arm of American policies in the Middle East - they are the American '5th Column' in that area.
There job is to disrupt the countries such as Syria. Unfortunately, due to Russian and Chinese intervention in the Eastern Med. Syria did not collapse and the Americans were unable to bomb them out of existence (as they did in Libya which is now worse off than it ever was under previous management) the rebels - once they lost their American shield - were actually driven out of Syria and into Iraq where they just happened to come into possession of all the weapons and ammo they needed to continue their campaign. Conveniently left behind by the absolute worst military retreat and acts of pure cowardice I have ever seen a soldier demonstrate. In fact, it was so pathetic and so bad I think it was specifically setup so ISIS could get the equipment they needed without America 'selling' it to them 'over the counter' so to speak.
But without American help, they won't succeed as none of the 'Arab spring' rebellions came even close to succeeding without full scale American intervention. Since the American plan to tie Russia up in the Ukraine has failed I don't think there will be much in the way of further overt American help for ISIS.
Truth cannot be found in any one news source. None of them present the real facts of the story. You have to read about these events or study them by accessing multiple news sources from a variety of different countries. The four I use are CBC, BBC,RT and Al Jazeria. CNN is a joke, so is Fox news and, unfortunately, the rest of American media - they seem more determined to spread fear than to relay proper facts.
Nothing in the Middle East is as 'cut and dry' as many westerners think it is.thanks for sharing this info... i stopped following the news a long time ago... too depressing.
I read only stories that I feel are important and then I read or view articles on those stories from multiple sources from multiple countries. Then I compare them to each other to try and sort out the real facts from the imposed agenda.
One should not have to do this if there really was journalistic integrity ... but this is the real world.its a shame to see how the truth is being omitted from this world slowly but surely.
you have my respect for at least speaking the truth you know. Its hard to find people like you these days who see and speak the truth.
May Allah bless you; if HE wills.
no one who quotes the bible actually puts things in proper context. ( or the Koran either for that matter) They pull out one sentence alone that supports their position and they try to sell their position as 'God's position' by using that one sentence.
It is why I ignore organized religion (or at least one reason why)
your 'beliefs' cannot be all they are cracked up to be if you have to deceive people into accepting them
Well everything is in the results or the fruit. It doesn't matter what it is. When Jesus Christ was here the multitudes came, found peace, got healed of all kinds of sickness and found joy like never before. If what you believe no matter what it is results in burnings, stoneings, be headings, women abuse, etc; then i would question the morality and truthfulness of the teachings. Both Christianity and Islam have been guilty of such results.
I dislike how Islam is represented by the Mullah's and other preachers of that faith.
Specifically this :'the same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah ... and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus (42:13 AYA).
The result of this view is that the scriptures given by these Prophets are considered to be genuine scriptures from God: But say, "We (Muslims) believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you (Jews & Christians); our Allah and your Allah is One" (29:46 AYA).
So, in essence Islam, Judaism and Christianity are 'branches' of the same faith in God.
Yet Christians and Jews are referred to as 'heretics' by Muslims - which according to the Koran is wrong! This opinion of the Mullahs is then used to propagate violence.
All religions misrepresent themselves though so ...yes they are branches of the same God.
The only reason christians are labelled as heretics is because christians made a man God. Jesus was only a messenger. He was not the lord God. that is also stated in the quran. do not associate anyone with God. its is known as "shirk", which is a major sin. this is the only reason.
I agree with you that the talk of the mullah gets out of hand which causes violence. They need to be educated. In fact, priesthood has become a profession which was not the case in the times of the prophet. the most pious or elderly person (or both) would lead the prayers at the time.
I would be very interested in the "facts' that you refer to. Can you list them please and and if you will, explain why you think they are facts. And if it is not to much of an inconvenience, if your definition differs from what is commonly accepted, explain why?That's an interesting point (Man God) and I never heard the term 'shirk' before so I am learning a new thing too. In Christianity it is the 'Name of the Lord' that you cannot take in vain.
The debate regarding Jesus as a prophet or the son of God himself was one that raged way back when as well when Christianity was still 'setting itself up' so to speak. I do understand that part, I actually think the 'Son of God' part was added in later to help give the religion a boost in it's early days - roughly 300 years after the death of Jesus. The Trinity is unacceptable to a Islamic person as it violates the first commandment 'Thou shalt have no God before me'.
I was born Christian but no longer practice that faith with any organized religion as I got tired of being lied to. I also refuse to let my government choose my enemies for me (or any organized religion either for that matter).
I still consider myself a 'man of God' even though I will not associate with any organized religion at this point. So, in essence, I am not exactly sure what a 'Man of God' is from my perspective. Perhaps that's an interesting question to post?
Why are the Jews considered 'heretics'? I am only curious as we discussed Christians but not Jews.I specifically did not add the Jews because i have an idea but i'm not 100% sure...
the idea lies in the day of sabbath ... they were told by God "no fishing on sabbath" i think that is saturday. The test for them was that the most fish arrived on the shores on saturday. So the Jews put up nets that would catch the fish and they would take out their fish on the next day. Then claimed they didn't fish on saturday. Basically, they were trying to play smart or cheat God.
God left them because they could not be trusted. Which normally gives us the impression that if the tribe of the Jews tried to cheat God and we are nothing compared to God ... therefore jews cannot be trusted.
this is the idea i had ... but i will get back to you on this with quotes from the Quran specifically talking about it and the real deal ... not what i've cooked up in my head.
here are a few of the quotes :
Sura 2 - Al-Baqara (MADINA) : Verse 87
Indeed, We gave Musa the Book, and after him We sent messengers, one following the other; and We gave clear signs to ‘Isa, the son of Maryam (Jesus, the son of Mary), and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Then, how is it that every time a prophet came to you with what does not meet your desires, you grew arrogant? So, you gave the lie to a group (of the messengers) and killed others.
Translation : Eng-Mufti Taqi Usmani
Sura 5 - Al-Maeda (MADINA) : Verse 17
Certainly, infidels are those who say, “God is the Masih, son of Maryam (Jesus son of Mary).” Say, “Who then has the power to do anything against Allah, if He wills to eliminate the Masih son of Maryam and his mother and all those on earth?” Unto Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what lies between them. He creates what He wills. Allah is powerful over everything.
Translation : Eng-Mufti Taqi Usmani
Sura 57 - Al-Hadid (MADINA) : Verse 27
Then We made Our messengers follow them one after the other, then We sent after them ‘Isa, the son of Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary), and gave him the Injil, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of his followers. As for monasticism, it was invented by them; We did not ordain it for them, but (they adopted it) to seek Allah’s pleasure, then could not observe it as was due. So We gave the believers from among them their reward. And many of them are sinners.
Translation : Eng-Mufti Taqi Usmani
Sura 2 - Al-Baqara (MADINA) : Verse 253
Those are the messengers some of whom We have given excellence over some others. Among them there are ones to whom Allah spoke (directly) and He raised some of them steps higher (in other respects), and We gave clear signs to ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary) and supported him with the Holy Spirit. [QETafseerComment] If Allah so willed, those succeeding him would have not fought against each other after clear signs had come to them. But they disagreed among themselves. So, there were some who believed and there were some who disbelieved, and if Allah so willed, they would have not fought against each other. But Allah does what He intends. [QETafseerComment]
Translation : Eng-Mufti Taqi Usmani
Tafseer (explanation) : Holy Spirit is the title of Gabriel who remained with Jesus as a guard to protect him from enemies.
Tafseer 2 : Allah does what he intends : Allah had the power to force all of them to accept the truth, in which case there would be no religious differences, but the basic purpose was that everyone accepts the true faith with his choice and freewill, so they may be tested.
These were some directly related to Jews and Christians. I guess from the first version i posted the reason seems to be arrogance. I think Pride is also a sin in christianity.
Now i'll try to post a few on shirk.
Sura 29 - Al-Ankaboot (MAKKA) : Verse 65
So when they embark on a ship, they invoke Allah, having their faith purely in Him. But when He saves them (and brings them) to the land, in no time they start committing shirk (ascribing partners to Allah),
Translation : Eng-Mufti Taqi Usmani
Sura 31 - Luqman (MAKKA) : Verse 13
Remember) when Luqman said to his son, while he was advising him, “My dear son, do not ascribe partners to Allah. Indeed, ascribing partners to Allah (shirk) is grave transgression.”
Translation : Eng-Mufti Taqi Usmani
Wikipedia on Quran and shirk.
Islamic commentators on the Qur'an have emphasized that pre-Islamic Arabic idolatry made a number of godlings (most memorably the three goddesses al-Manāt, al-Lāt and ʻUzzā) equal associates of Allah (as the Qur'an discusses in the 53rd surat) and the word mushrikūn (singular: mushrik) is often translated into English as "polytheists".
Allah mentions the names of some of the idols in the Qu'ran and what the people of Prophet Nuh's community would say in an effort by the idolaters to ignore and mock Prophet Nuh. "They (idolaters) have said: "You shall not leave your gods nor shall you leave Wadd, nor Suwa', nor Yaghuth, nor Ya'uq nor Nasr." (Qur'an 71:23)
Other forms of shirk include the worship of wealth and other material objects. This is pointed out in the Qur'an in one of the stories of the Children of Israel, when they took a calf made of gold for worship,[4] and for which Moses ordered them to repent.
Another form of shirk mentioned in the Qur'an is to take scholars of religion, monks, divines, or religious lawyers as Lord(s) in practice by following their doctrines, and/or by following their rulings on what is lawful when it is at variance to the law or doctrines prescribed by God's revelation.
--------------free will... the little power you have gets the best of you and you fight. As Lonestar used to say on this forum... its the "ego".
Not ego. Only when a person finds that another is against his self interest he fights.
If a robot I make malfunction it is my responsibility. Similarly if the human god make is prone to violence it's god's responsibility.
But you will find that religion is one of the great motivator for fight.robots don't have free will so lets keep away from that.
I can agree to the point that religion is a great motivation tool for violence ... a catalyst ... but it is not the root cause of violence.What is the root cause of the violence from ISIS?
It will not prevent all violence that's for sure however it will prevent some and some is plenty.Rad man... if ISIS truly prevents violence i'm all for it.
I'm not sure what that means. Are you saying we should let ISIS take over the world to prevent violence?
if as you say they are preventing lives from being lost then why not. whoever they are. lets try out their peacekeeping system.
No no no. I said/meant that getting rid of religion would prevent some violence and in the case of ISIS, omitting religion would get rid of the violence all together.
sorry i may not have understood correctly... lol... i still doubt that would be possible. if you want to erase religion ... you have to erase Adam and Eve... in effect ... we will all be erased. We did not come from a select group of monkey's.
could it also not be possible that instead of going from apes to human ... a select group of humans turned into apes?
i say it because the theory of evolution goes against our beliefs, in the matter of apes and swine.
“So when they exceeded the limits of what they were prohibited, We said to them: ‘Be you apes, despised and rejected.’” [7:166]. Allah also says: “Say: ‘Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, and those of whom He transformed into apes and swine and those who worshipped false deities?’” [5:60].During the time the Quran was written the people had no idea about evolution. This should be a clue to many that none of it came from any Gods as Gods would have explained where we came from rather than contradicted what we now learn. The Quran speaks of the orbit of the moon and of the Sun, but doesn't mention the Earth? The Quran says that a mans sperm comes from somewhere in his back? The Quran says the Earth is shaped like an egg?
Meaning the writers of the Quran didn't have any knowledge of the universe that men of that time didn't already have.
yes it does speak of the earth. > "the heavens and the earth and everything in between" has been written many times.
please give me a quote which says > sperm in the back ... i have never heard or read that before.
shape of an egg. > speaks about earth here too... there are many shapes of an egg... the egg you're thinking of is probably not the one.I had seen various breeds of chicken eggs, turkey, guinea, duck, muscovy ducks, goose, pheasant, emu eggs (I have seen lizard and snakes eggs too) none of which resembled the earth. So was the egg a reference to an egg seen only in Arabia?
PS: Yes, except for emu and pheasant I have all those birds in my home.i have no idea what egg it was referring to... i will have to check.
He certainly may not be referring to brontosaurus eggs. He is using a shape familiar to arabs (or the author is just dotting down the opinion of his times) which should be a common egg known to all and in that case he is wrong.
the only place you find the word "egg" in the quran translations is,
Sura 37 - As-Saaffat (MAKKA) : Verse 49
As if they were (delicate) eggs closely guarded.
Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali
Sura 37 - As-Saaffat (MAKKA) : Verse 49
(Pure) as they were hidden eggs (of the ostrich).
Translation : Eng-Pickthal-Audio
Sura 37 - As-Saaffat (MAKKA) : Verse 49
(Delicate and pure) as if they were (hidden) eggs (well) preserved.
Translation : Eng-Dr. Mohsin
these talk about the eyes, not earth. please show me the part you are referring to.Here "shape of an egg. > speaks about earth here too... there are many shapes of an egg... the egg you're thinking of is probably not the one."
Its you who said earth shape= egg's, so you find out. I am in no mood to go through that book again.
I think quran says earth is like a carpet which is more correct as for most observers it appears like one but will get no marks though.no this one is definitely eyes ... i'll post the sentence before it.
For them there is a known provision, (41) Fruits. And they will be honoured (42) In the Gardens of delight, (43) On couches facing one another; (44) A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, (45) White, delicious to the drinkers, (46) Wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. (47) <b> And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, (48) (Pure) as they were hidden eggs (of the ostrich).</b> (49) And some of them draw near unto others, mutually questioning. (50) A speaker of them saith: Lo! I had a comrade (51) Who used to say: Art thou in truth of those who put faith (in his words)?
Translation : Eng-Pickthal-Audio
There is no where else that talks about an egg.
79:30 which everyone is calling egg-shaped is
Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for him who feareth. (26) Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? (27) He raised the height thereof and ordered it; (28) And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof. (29) <b>And after that He spread the earth,</b> (30) And produced therefrom the water thereof and the pasture thereof, (31) And He made fast the hills, (32) A provision for you and for your cattle. (33)You don't have to quote all words, I have three different translations with me.
It was you who said that, I quoted your words. The Quran writers mostly thought of it as flat.I was responding to RadMan. anyways that's out the way... your next point.
Flat : no ... they did not think it was flat. see below.
Islamic astronomy[edit]
Islamic astronomy was developed on the basis of a spherical earth inherited from Hellenistic astronomy.[43] The Islamic theoretical framework largely relied on the fundamental contributions of Aristotle (De caelo) and Ptolemy (Almagest), both of whom worked from the premise that the earth was spherical and at the center of the universe (geocentric model).[43]
Early Islamic scholars recognized earth's sphericity,[44] leading Muslim mathematicians to develop spherical trigonometry[45] in order to further mensuration and to calculate the distance and direction from any given point on the Earth to Mecca. This determined the Qibla, or Muslim direction of prayer.
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth
the point being... if the Quran would have said Flat then Muslims would not even consider the contributions of Aristotle and the likes. Something must have been in the Quran to lead them to think it was spherical.Quran 71:19 And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out).
Quran 78:6 Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse
Quran 15:19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet);
Quran 81:1 when the sun is folded (wrapped up)
It's only after gengis khan razed middle east, muslims turned away from science, not before. Quran got nothing to do with muslims following or turning away from science.Islam is a way of life ... with hints of science for those who wish to ponder. no where does it say the earth is flat, if that is why you posted the verses. carpet can be thought of as the layer of earthbed above the molten core.
I've never seen a carpet lay on anything other than a flat floor.
If i say to you "i pray that the light of Allah envelopes you and protects you from all evil".
you will think "i can never see a human fit in an envelope" or something on those lines; somehow trying to make it an impossible thing to do.
then you will never understand. better to let it go.its a fallacy when you want it to be and true when you want it to be. making your own rules as you go along.
Not at all.
Envelope has two meanings and in both sentences the meaning is different (but you are using as if RadMan meant one), while spread out or expanse or folded up cannot be used the way you want it.Very interesting to note :
I was about to write a harsh comment as an example .. Then I thought let me do an experiment and give em a prayer which feels really good and it comes from my heart.
The response. Both of you lost the urge to deny God and the light and the envelope and how dumb the whole prayer should sound to an athiest... What God? What light of God? What envelope?
This is totally unacceptable behaviour from the both of you. Pull your socks up.
I still meant what I said in the prayer to both of you. (Radman and Jomine)
You are more then welcome to pray for whoever you like, but we wouldn't have said anything about the envelope not making sense because the prayer you mentioned made perfect sense "i pray that the light of Allah envelopes you and protects you from all evil". We even pronounce envelope differently depending on the meaning.
Envelop is a verb, stressed on the second syllable and meaning ‘wrap completely.’ The noun meaning ‘paper container for a letter’ is envelope, stressed on the first syllable.Ok then back to the original quote :
Carpet: Will you not accept it could mean a layer around the molten core?carpet |ˈkärpit|
noun
a floor or stair covering made from thick woven fabric, typically shaped to fit a particular room: the house has wall-to-wall carpets throughout | the floor was covered with carpet.
• a large rug, typically an oriental one: priceless Persian carpets.
• a thick or soft expanse or layer of something: carpets of snowdrops and crocuses.
• informal a carpetlike artificial playing surface on a tennis court or an athletic field.
I don't see anything in the definition like you're describing?
A carpet is something we used to either protect the hard floor, keep our feet warm or decorate a room.
A carpet is either something that covers floors or I think the British use the word to also mean a severe reprimand.
The are a multitude of better ways to describe the crust of the earth. A carpet implies a flat surface.In the definition you posted;
• a thick or soft expanse or layer of something: carpets of snowdrops and crocuses.
We also use carpeting the road. Meaning a new layer of tar.I'd think "covering" or "shell" would be a better description. We call the earth crust a crust not a carpet.
I also think describing the obit of the moon and sun and omitting the orbit of the earth is a little lacking.
I also think describing mountains as being immoveable is a tad inaccurate as well.you can call it the crust... but the crust is still a layer. i don't think people 1400 years ago would understand that the earth had a crust. Another thing to note is that arabic words do have more than one meaning... and it all depends on the translator in what he writes.
I talked to a friend of arabic descent a while ago and ask her a specific meaning of a sentence. the translation stated that the sun and moon were travelling... my friend read the arabic and explained, the word in this context doesn't mean "to travel" it means "to come back towards us after travel". there is a huge difference in the meaning, and there will be many more errors found in translation.
started writing this a few hours ago ... workload a little high today. more later.Then we don't have to take a meaning that which is not understood at the time of its writing. The one who wrote and those who read it understood it as flat, so it is flat.
More over as there is no god, why should one bother about what quran says? Most of it is wrong then and science has progressed in spite of. I do believe that you will not turn into a monster even if there is no god. And even quran couldn't prevent isis from being what it is and such people site quran interpreting it the way they see it, just like you do. How can we say who is right? . So if you can't live without believing quran as true so be it, but then why bother to discuss?
Even if quran is the manifesto of nonviolence, islam will be understood only from the actions of muslims, and if you want to change that opinion then make sure that such medieval type of violence is not repeated and that the majority condemn it. When the majority do not speak up against such violence but can do mass demonstrations and exhort to violence over a few cartoons, then the image eii always remain tarnishedsee .. that's the problem with the media... they showed you the outrage part only... they did not talk to the majority who were sitting at home ... angry; but not stupid to go out on the streets and cause havoc on our own land.
You probably don't know but after the video that came out on youtube about Muhammad. Youtube has been blocked in pakistan. its been over 3 years now. yet the silent protest such as this is never highlighted.
Talking about the video : even the muslims who go to the mosque once a year to pray and have the least of faith who watched the movie felt that they had been insulted.
The thing i don't understand is why anyone in their right mind would want to make fun of peoples beliefs... they must have been abused in life one way or another, but one thing is for certain, they didn't have decency or respect for anyone.
I used youtube for educational purposes mostly ... its a shame i couldn't continue on it... with time you find other substitutes...Don't blame the media entirely. If there was nothing, they could show nothing.
Why should youtube be banned? You have the right to watch or not watch youtube but not the right to prevent those who want to see it.
Why should people feel offended if their beliefs are questioned? I have not seen the west getting offended by anyone questioning jesus even though the west is overwhelmingly christian. Hubpages.com religious forum mostly is a fight between religious and nonreligious making fun of each other but as far as I know no one has gone out with a gun to settle the scores.
If religion had its way science would never have progressed. I think you know what the church did when somebody said earth is not the center. Scholars now question whether jesus really lived. Beliefs are personal matters to be kept in ones mind. If it's in the public sphere it's not above scrutiny.
If you go out in public and make ridiculous statements you would only get ridicule. Nobody is coming to your home to make fun of you, are they?i don't trust the media at all .. no matter what country shows it... all they want is attention and viewers and will show anything to get it.
There is nothing wrong with questioning beliefs.
All your allegations are about the actions of people... he did this ... he did that... stop talking about who did what ... if this is all you have and nothing on the religion itself then the conversation is over.You can't live without god, a superstition. Then what is there to be discussed about religion? Is it which superstition is better?
Still, since you asked,
Why do you say your interpretation of quran is the right one and not isis's?
Agreed you can't live without such superstition, but why do you want to justify it? To whom?for the benefit of people who really want to understand. to clarify to the people that the religion is not at fault... the people who follow it are at fault. that is my only reason.
Then say you want to spread your religion. There is no misunderstanding, the violence in middle east clears it well. You mistranslate to make it look good.
If for all the bad, people and not religion is at fault then religion is not responsible for the good of people either.the violence in the middle east is because of oil.
sure we have a few nutters like every other race in the world ... no one on this earth is perfect.
if the religion spreads then sure i'll be happy. if it doesn't its not my problem. my target is to clear the main misconceptions that it is a violent religion because that is a false claim. i've stated a quote by rumi to Rad Man before ... i'll repeat it here.
“Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I am changing myself.”
~Rumi
this is where i see myself today. therefore i don't care if anyone joins islam or not, i have enough on my plate to last me a lifetime.
Finally every single country in the world has good and bad people. the majority are good only a selected group are not. lets take china for example. their population is about 1.3 billion (closest i could find to the muslim population) ... and their prison cells hold about 1.5 million people. the majority are good people, yet some bad people will still be walking free on the streets.
from this information we cannot just conclude that because 1.5 million chinese people are bad they must be taught garbage and false. the number is huge but you have to look at the population size too. it comes to 200 bad people in every 100,000. that's not bad at all in my opinion as compared to other countries over the world. i would conclude this situation by saying china is doing something right.Would you like to see the entire world under Sharia law?
I think judging how good a country is by looking at the percentage of people in prison is a tad quick. I suspect one would have to go a little deeper than that.the whole world... that is never going to happen.
it is a tad quick ... i agree ... but it gives you a mild idea of the percentage of bad among the good or a rough figure which is mildly accurate according to real statistics. something else you could derive is that the rules are not efficient enough to catch everyone, like the country i live in... most of the guys pay off the police and do what they want in the streets. you obviously have to dig a lot deeper to get to the real reason. the details do not matter to this conversation.
the point i was trying to make is 1.5 million sounds like a huge number of people ... but it is still a small percentage when you look at the whole population of 1.3 billion.I didn't ask you if it would ever happen, I asked you if that is what you would like to see.
BTW, ISIS is killing people, cutting off hands, stoning people and forcing them to except Islam.
Iran is stoning women for committing adultery.
Sound like a good idea?its a bit of a difficult question... looking at the state of affairs at the moment.... i would say no, i would not like to see everyone turn into a muslim.
forcing people to accept Islam is wrong. they will be punished by God for what they do wrong. Cutting hands rule applied only for stealing ... stoning women and men (not just the women) to death is a rule but if the judge has been ordered that if you have even an ounce of doubt about the situation then do not rule for stoning by death...
There is a concept in Islam called "Biddah" ... which basically means innovation or adding something new to Islam... All those muslims involved in Biddah will be among those who will be thrown into hellfire. Its not as simple as i'm a muslim and i'm going to heaven. That is why we are encouraged to read, and learn in the Quran. to understand what is right and what is wrong.
Violence in Islam is the last resort, after all dialogue attempts have failed.
Is it for oil that isis kill christians and Yazidis? Is it for oil israel and Palestine fight?
If I burn the quran today I am sure I'll be dead tomorrow. A good majority will be in the streets asking for my death. Even using the name muhammad (not the prophet)in a question paper was enough for some of the muslims to cut the hand of a teacher. But I can burn the bible or gita or any other text with impunity. Very few will even mind. So don't say your interpretation of quran, there is no violence in it, is the correct one.Israel and Palestine war is for land which was given by the west to the jewish people of the holocaust. They gave a land they did not own; do you think that is fair for the palestinian people? to be kicked out of their own land. why will they not fight? and just because they are muslims you probably think the palestinians are the terrorists. The war is because of LAND not religion in that scenario.
its amazing that you cannot see how almost every muslim country has been attacked in the last decade from pakistan to egypt... and 90% of the time america is always fighting against the muslims and ends up making bases on muslim LAND, which they will probably keep for a while. some of which has huge reserves of oil. They don't touch saudi because the kings of saudi are already with the american's and secondly if they attack saudi then no muslim country will hold back. they have used the name of islam to get into the middle east and have control over OIL... because if you control oil today you have the most power. Greed for power of the leaders is what this all is. the rest of the fights come along as bonuses which helps them say "look at those evil people", when all those people want is to be left alone.
some people carry more emotions than others ... burn it if you like ... and if you do it in public then it means you are also using islam as a tool to get some fame.And what makes the jews, jews, the land? It was because of their religion they remain separate and ask for that land. The conflict arises only because jews can't get rid of their religion. They could have easily be integrated into European society or babylonian but they remained separate by virtue of a religion. Why should a midern jew who was bought up in a foreign nation for generations ask for that land?
Oh you suppose I consider all muslims invariably bad and others good? No, I consider humans as generally good while religion, whatever it be, divides and make them a monster. Ethinicity is another but that is less lethal.
Then please don't forget that persia and india(aka pakistan) are muslim countries only because it was subjugated by muslims and mostly converted with the help of sword. It is the greed for power that make one start religion in the first place. That, as you said (if I remember correctly), is the best way to mobilize the mass and that happens because people are willing to believe superstition and can't live without it just like you do.
And it is not due to America the sunnis and shias are fighting. It is not even for oil. Why in pakistan ahmadiyas are not given equal status, because America attacks? Was Ismailis an American creation? Did the indians and pakistanis divided the land and at each others throat because of America?
The abuse of the myth far outweigh its uses.
I am not going to burn it, and you entirely missed the point. I can burn other religious books with impunity and gain fame but if I burn quran I will be dead because a good majority of your people are intolerant while other religious people are not. Or to put it another way fanatics(who are ready to kill or condone) are very few in major religions except yours. Even if you try all your might, your interpretation is not going to be believed as long as it is not the dominant majority opinion that is practiced. And if a religion is churning out fanatics, whose fault is it?fault lies with the leaders who use religion as a tool to gain power. once again...its people not religion at fault.
But if religion was about people instead of power that could not happen. If religion were love, caring and support instead of the maintaining and growing the power of church VIP's those leaders could not use it to control or mistreat others.
our religion is about love / care and support. and it is about humanity ... it's not my fault that it is not practiced widely enough... someones domestic violence is not religions fault... its the people who are involved who are at fault.
Love :
In Islam God loves you 70 times more than a mother can ever love her child.
A true muslim is one who wishes the same for his brother; that which he wishes for himself.
Care & support:
Zakat : charity for the poor is one of the pillars of Islam. it is the idea of spreading the wealth rather than a select group controlling everything.
The Caliph Hazrat Umar was worried about getting food to his neighbours who were Jews.
When a man started urinating in the mosque the prophet stopped his companions from stopping the man as it would have an adverse affect on his body while urinating.
it is the duty of every child to look after their parents in old age.
I can go on and on with examples of love, care and support.
We are taught to be humble and we are also taught not to be walked over.
Mosques are not supposed to have VIPs in the first place. The place of the priest or imam in Islam does not exist... it has been created. What should happen is all the people gather and the eldest or most pious person leads the prayer and everyone goes back to their lives. no one was supposed to stay there as a permanent employee. and sadly in most cases these people are literate only in quranic teachings and not in worldly teachings.
the real VIPs are called Mufti's ... who have studied Islam in depth as well as other worldly studies. A Mufti is allowed to pass out laws or new rulings according to the current time. They are at a higher level than a scholar of Islam. Only the Caliphs had the power ... no one has power after that. You get respect and a place for being a pious person. that's it.
America is not the cause of shia / sunni.... that is saudi arabia and iran. i've written about them before in this forum... look it up if you are up to it... i'm not repeating myself.
i was talking about the past decade when i said america and 90% ... why are you bringing in india and pakistan ... that was a long time ago ... i agree that was all about religion because i have heard first hand stories from my own relatives who were driven out of our lands ... many got butchered in the process.
religion does not make you a monster ... it doesn't make you a serial killer ... if you understand the teachings it teaches you discipline in life. it teaches you to respect god's creations, which includes other people.
when people touch the real world at whatever age ... that is when they change ... it depends on their experiences in life ... before touching all the greed / envy / pride and other evils of this world every single soul is configured to do good. in a number of cases people who follow religion are brought up with religion in their lives yet they still do good until they enter the real world ... So who or what really changes us? people or religion? My answer is people... not religion.I gave them as examples were religion is the sole cause of violence. People are more important and they have every right to say or do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt others. People are good irrespective of religion. Religion promote division seeing people as groups rather than people, it make people infringe other's right like youtube being banned in pakistan. And no every soul is not configured to do good. And without the offer of heaven provided by religion mohammad atta won't be foolish enough to lose his life. Other causes of mass violence can't offer such rewars and are mostly acts of desperation.
see ... just because religion is the current biggest thing out there you claim it is the biggest dividing factor. if religion did not exist... something else would take its place. it is the people who have a habit of dividing themselves for one reason or another. not religion.
Can you substantiate what you say?
The pagan religions rarely ever killed for religion, it's the monotheism that is the problem. People divide themselves based on language, race, ethnicity, nationality.... and it is not religion but ethnicity/nationality that is the biggest factor but in terms of violence religion is the biggest. Religion is more dangerous because it offer reward unlike any of the other dividing factor. None can compare to the reward eternal heaven and even virgins to the physical ones offered by other factors. Religion is superstitious and people fight even when they have no need to fight but it's poverty that makes people fight in other causes. Poverty we can solve, superstition not.please give me the quote saying you get virgins in heaven for fighting war... i have heard it so many times yet i have not seen it anywhere. maybe i've been reading in all the wrong places.
The concept probably originated from this passage
Lo! We have created them a (new) creation, And made them virgins, Lovers, friends, For those on the right hand;
Qur'an 56:35-38
Although this probably is the root of it
Abu Umama narrated: "The Messenger of God said, 'Everyone that God admits into paradise will be married to 72 wives; two of them are houris and seventy of his inheritance of the [female] dwellers of hell. All of them will have libidinous sex organs and he will have an ever-erect penis.' "
Sunan Ibn Majah, Zuhd (Book of Abstinence) 39
And its all down to interpretation as with this
Anas said, Allah be well-pleased with him: The Messenger of Allah said, upon him blessings and peace: “The servant in Paradise shall be married with seventy wives.” Someone said, “Messenger of Allah, can he bear it?” He said: “He will be given strength for a hundred.” From Zayd ibn Arqam, Allah be well-pleased with him, when an incredulous Jew or Christian asked the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, “Are you claiming that a man will eat and drink in Paradise??” He replied: “Yes, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, and each of them will be given the strength of a hundred men in his eating, drinking, coitus, and pleasure.”
Sifat al-Janna, al-`Uqayli in the Du`afa’, and Musnad of Abu Bakr al-Bazzar
As many of the Islamic terrorists have been brainwashed into thinking they are the right hand or messenger of Allah you can plainly see where this misconception comes from.Don't your religion offer virgins in heaven?
Don't your religion offer heaven for "jihad"?
Read that together.
And don't read religion=islam, yours is not the only religion nor only monotheism.it does have virgins but that is not the main attraction... sex is not the only thing in the world.
to my understanding this is what Jihad means :
Jihad means ‘to strive or struggle in the way of Allah’. There are different levels of Jihad:
Greater Jihad the personal spiritual struggle or effort of every Muslim to follow the teachings of Allah (God) in their own lives e.g. overcoming things such as anger greed, pride and hatred; forgiving someone who has hurt them; working for social justice.
Lesser Jihad the struggle to build a good Muslim society; also Holy War (the struggle to defend against oppression; with force if necessary).
yes we are offered heaven for jihaad... the greater one is preferred.Does it offer is the question. It's a lie but people don't realize it because they are superstitious. And nothing in the physical world can compete with that.
there is a quote in the quran about virgins in heaven ... so yes.
how can you be so sure its a lie? have you felt what others have felt? have you been through every experience this world has to offer? if not then you cannot say its a lie. turning a blind eye is not a sign of an open mind.
you are right in saying that nothing in this physical world can compete with the next world. i agree totally, even though your interpretation of this sentence is totally different to mine.How can I be sure? Because any human experience is from the brain only. There is no supernatural . People have illusions, hallucinations and delusions that won't make it real.
And in your answer lie the problem. People who believe such superstition can do anything for the supposed afterlife.
Once again, if religion is not making people bad it is not making people good either.
So it is like a weapon more destructive than constructive.look at your first sentence then your conclusion... it doesn't make sense. not good or bad makes it neutral not destructive.
A knife is neither good nor bad depends on where it's used.
Religion is more like the nuclear weapon.He's saying you have to take the good with the bad. If you say religion helps people you have to except it hurts people.
i can only see it hurt people if people use the name of religion to hurt others, and to be honest it does not count because they are going against the teachings of religion.
separate the actions of people and the religion and then you will see what is supposed to happen and what is happening... an example below...
I was reading a book recently called Islam at crossroads by Muhammad Asad ... its written by an austrian correspondent who travelled in the Islamic regions between 1922 and 1935. the book was published in 1934.
at that time he wrote :
"The reality, however, of the present-day Muslim life appeared to be very far from the ideal possibilities given in the religious teachings of Islam."
he further writes
"I realized that the one and only reason for the social and cultural decay of the Muslims consisted in the fact that they had gradually ceased to follow the teachings of Islam in spirit. Islam was still there; but it was a body without a soul. The very element which once had created the strength of the Muslim world was now responsible for its weakness: Islamic society had been built, from the very outset, on religious foundations alone, and the weakening of those foundations has necessarily weakened the culture structure - and possibly might cause its ultimate disappearance."
finally he wrote...
"it almost became an obsession which ultimately overshadowed all my other intellectual interests in the world of Islam. The questioning steadily grew in emphasis until I, a non-muslim, talked to Muslims as if i had to defend Islam from their negligence and indolence."
the reason i write all this is because this man understood that it is the Muslims who have abandoned their full application of Islamic teachings in real life. He does not blame Islam... he correctly blames the people for not following correctly.
i cannot change the actions of the people. yes they did wrong. but its is not right to blame the religion when the fault lies in the people. experiences and circumstances have made them what they are.
recently i saw a picture of a kid sleeping on rubble and using a brick as a pillow ... both parents died on attack by the US ... don't blame muslims if he is filled with anger against the US... he has a right to be angry. and he is not the only one affected. its like slapping a person in the face and when he reacts you say "look at this violent person". Its a stupid game... stop playing it.I am not questioning you about the actions of US. Are the Yazidis or christians justified in lambasting you for isis's actions?
Why should a person in Indonesia feel offended about a film or cartoon in Europe? He has the right not to see it. He has no right to infringe the rights of those who wants to draw it or those who want to see it.
And why do we need religion if it is as impotent as you claim?
Why do these people who calim to belong to your religion and site religion as justification of their actions?
Why do they insist that others belong to their religion?
People are inherently not violent. Religion is inciting them to violence by justifying it and giving a cause to be. Iraqi muslims and christians are no different other than for religion.
Claiming oneself as prophet or god or questioning beliefs are not like slapping on the face.I am not questioning you about the actions of US. Are the Yazidis or christians justified in lambasting you for isis's actions?
Why should a person in Indonesia feel offended about a film or cartoon in Europe? He has the right not to see it. He has no right to infringe the rights of those who wants to draw it or those who want to see it.
And why do we need religion if it is as impotent as you claim?
Why do these people who calim to belong to your religion and site religion as justification of their actions?
Why do they insist that others belong to their religion?
People are inherently not violent. Religion is inciting them to violence by justifying it and giving a cause to be. Iraqi muslims and christians are no different other than for religion.
Claiming oneself as prophet or god or questioning beliefs are not like slapping on the face.
back to square 1...
we have discussed most of these things earlier ... i'm not going to repeat myself.Yet you have not addressed the question, why your nonsensical beliefs posted in a public forum be not questioned?
If it's ridiculous, why shouldn't it be ridiculed?
Bingo. The people of that time didn't know and the writer of the Quran didn't know, therefore they had no help from any Gods.
Yes, I've noticed the translations seem to change as time goes by to fit into what we know of the universe, which tells me the original is nothing like the translations.i'm glad you agree about the translation. As we learn new things ... the translation will change further. So one really wants to understand it they must learn arabic.
no no no bingo... it was not written by a human. it came down from God through Gabriel to Muhammad who spread the word over a period of 23 years. The Quran is the word of God... not any human.I don't think you understand. It should be translated without prejudices. We don't suddenly have the earth in orbit around the sun because that is something that we learned.
Sorry, if the Quran was written by God then it would not have described the earth as egg shaped. It would not have sperm come from a man's back, it would not have mentioned the Suns orbit in the same sentence without talking about the earth orbit.
Written by a man.I agree should be translated without any prejudice.
I thought we got passed the egg shaped part. There is no egg shape in the Quran...
Sperm from a mans back... please give me a quote.
It can talk about the sun's orbit without the earth if it wants. Depends on the topic being discussed. See you are a man ... therefore you wouldn't write something like that. but God can ... and did."Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Qur'an 86:5-7).
You'll notice people are now changing that translation because it's wrong. But this is the translation without prejudice.
I gave you the words for the egg shaped words and the translations for each word.
The Quran says in one sentence that both the moon and sun have an orbit, but doesn't mention the orbit of the earth because they thought the sun and the boon orbit the earth.there are many translations which you might want to see...
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/86/7/
the most common ones are between loins and breast bones/chest bones, however there are many that say backbone or spine too. if so many scholars have different meanings i cannot comment .. until i understand it further. Although in the commentary it says the verse is talking about semen ... to me it seems it could even be talking about a pregnant woman (the obvious). still need to understand it further though... will get back to you on this one.
Egg Shaped : i could not find a translation as i stated before which says egg-shape... it says and then we squeezed or flattened it a little. i did post the verse a few days ago.
Orbit :
He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He wraps the night around the day and wraps the day around the night, and has made the Sun and Moon subservient, each one running for a specified term. Is He not indeed the Almighty, the Endlessly Forgiving? ( Surat az-Zumar, 39:5)
In the above verse the movement of the Earth is described by the word “yukawwiru,” which comes from root verb “takwir,” meaning “to cover up a spherical body,” in the way that the rotation of the Earth gives rise to night and day, like the winding of a turban. In addition to the spherical shape of the Earth the word is also the most accurate expression of its movement around the Sun. Because of the Earth’s spherical shape and its movement around the Sun, the Sun always illuminates one side of the Earth while the other is in darkness. The side in shadow is shrouded by the darkness of night, to be replaced by the brightness of day when the Sun rises. The positions of the Sun and Earth are revealed as follows in Surah Ya Sin:
And the Sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing. And We have decreed set phases for the Moon, until it ends up looking like an old palm spathe. It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon nor for the night to outstrip the day; each one is swimming in a sphere. (Surah Ya Sin, 38-40)
The movements of the Sun and Moon in verse 40 of Surah Ya Sin are described by the Arabic word "yasbahoona," meaning “flowing, passing or swimming.” This word refers to an action performed by someone on their own. Someone acting according to this verb continues to perform it alone, with no intervention from anyone else. The above verses may therefore be referring to the Sun’s independent movement in the universe, independent of any other celestial body. (Allah knows the truth.) It is impossible for us to see or follow the movement of the Sun with our own eyes. It is only possible to determine that movement using special technological equipment. As stated in verse 39 of Surah Ya Sin, in addition to rotating around its own axis once every 26 days, the Sun also moves through its own course.
The verse also reports that the Sun is not allowed to “overtake the Moon,” and the Qur’an thus states that the Sun and Moon do not revolve around the same body, as astronomers put it. At the same time, the verse makes it clear that there is no connection between the motion responsible for night and day and the movement of the Sun and Moon. (Allah knows the truth.)
This is nothing more than a belief and it's just as funny as anothers belief that eating flesh in symbolic form brings salvation. . You have put it in a public forum so why should not I question it?
this specific response was for Rad Man... but you are right about questioning it.
question as much as you like (it is healthy to question) ... but don't ridicule it because it doesn't conform to your standards or the standards of the ever changing science.You mean falsehoods purported as trurh are not to be ridiculed because it hurt sentiments?
so now you are going to start ridiculing einstein because of the acceleration of the universe? No. you will still have respect for the man; that is, if you have manners and are not arrogant.
Another fallacy, special pleading.
Why should Einstein's nonsense be not ridiculed?
Why shouldn't his followers be not ridiculed?
Einstein made a honest mistake he didn't purport falsehood as truths to get followers and power.who said muhammad wanted power? Power in the west normally constitutes having a lot of money and control over people. Muhammad gave all his earnings away to the poor before sleeping at night. People followed him because he was a good person. he had no greed for this world. he lived like a simple person ... not like a king. Even the pagans used to come to him and asked him to be the judge of a dispute, because they know he would not be biased. he wanted the well-being of humanity.
if his teachings were so bad then why would people want to follow his teachings 1400 years after his death? only a select few people like you who don't really know much about him or choose to ignore the good in him are the ones who ridicule. selecting points from answeringislam.com is too common on this site.
learned people; even though they may disagree, still speak with respect.The same teachings is being used as the basis of isis. Power is not about money. A few years before a notorious don was arrested, contrary to popular perception, he was living in a hut.
Whatever be his good there is still falsehood, isn't it? He claimed there is god and he talked to him while in actuality there is no god. If there were no Muhammad would it be bad for Arabia? Except that instead of islam people would be following pagan religion what difference would it make?
People following is not a proof of any greatness. Most of the good pre exists islam(even preexists humanity), people are basically good. Religion only divides and conflagrate animal instincts.
Learned people speak with respect only to other people who talk sense and those who don't use deception.
And if you think I am getting my information from any internet sites you are absolutely wrong. As I told you I have my quran and I have a close friend who is a muslim. I read books by Reza Aslan, Donner..... whom I think you also agree write about islam in the best possible way.
And don't claim to know much about Muhammed, there is no contemporary biography of his available and inauthentic hadiths are more than (considered)authentic.that is your belief that he did not talk to God. My belief says otherwise. to you there is falsehood. to me there is none. yeah i think if he didn't come along then the people of arabia would have headed for trouble.
having just over a Billion people believe in you is quite an achievement in my opinion and is definitely a sign of greatness.
I disagree ... religion is used as a tool to divide people. If religion did not exist, people would fight over the colour of skin or a way of thinking or the amount of land owned by people. one way or another there would be havoc. animal instincts are within each person. religion; if practiced correctly, helps you overcome those animal instincts.
no one is deceiving anyone else. the quran is an open book for all and so are the hadith. if its for you then its for you ... if not then walk away.
the hadith are a good enough to tell you about the person. he was not a bad man nor was he spreading falsehood. if that is what you want to believe then that's fine with me ... but you don't have to keep trying to force your words down my throat.
its interesting to see how you believe that religion is so bad and it divides people etc etc, yet without being a part of any religion you are still involved in the fight and are an active part of the dividing factor just as much as you may think i am involved in it. if you think religion is burning bridges then you are doing nothing different... you're just standing on the other side of the bridge.God's existence doesn't depend upon anybody's belief. Saying god exists out of ignorance is different from asserting his existence and claim to talk to him. Nonexisting god can't talk. Anyone asserting otherwise has an angle.
People of arabia were doing fine without him, all he did was impose war and religion.
The more fanatic ones religion is the more followers one get. The ancient religions including Buddhism gas a very fine following equal to islam percentage wise. Jesus also command a billion followers.
People did fought based on skin and religion provided a good justification. If religion is removed not only will it remove major cause it also reduce the justification and reward (heaven) in a good number of causes. There is no true religion, it's all falsehood.
Except that the hadiths are inauthentic and no one knows really what muhammad did or talk. Saying there is god is a falsehood and imposing war for that falsehood doesn't make one good.
Huh! I am trying to counter your falsehoods.
If you can clearly show a god and if you xan show that he says to reject violence unambiguously then only your words have any meaning.No point going on in circles... this one i guess applies to you too...
Say, “O disbelievers, (1) I do not worship that which you worship, (2) Nor do you worship the One whom I worship. 1 (3) And neither I am going to worship that which you have worshipped, 2 (4) Nor will you worship the One whom I worship. (5) For you is your faith, and for me, my faith.” (6)
Peace.Why don't you say the same to ahmadiyas or shias or the christians?
Why was it not told to the Arabians? That prophetess who was killed (I can't remember the name).
It is not words but actions that does matter.
And I don't worship anyone. That is what you do.
What about the satanic verses?i have friends who are ahmadi / shia / christian / hindu / sikhs / atheists and those who believe there is some deity present but not ready to join any religion. i say it only to those who try to attack my beliefs ... all my friends have respected my beliefs and therefore i respect theirs in return.
It was revealed in the Quran, therefore it was told to the arabians. if the prophetess came after the prophet then she was false because Muhammad was the seal of the prophets...
don't hold me accountable for what people do wrong. i have been wronged by numerous people too... it doesn't mean their religion teaches them to do wrong... they have a fault within them.I was using 'you' as plural not singular.
Yet you say your religion does not cause violence. This is why all religions should be abolished. You were lamenting that the quraesh were harsh to muhammad and see what was done. This is how religion create violence - intolerance.
You are against free speech yet you say religion is not at fault. Religion neither teaches good nor bad, it simply co-opts societal ideals but it create division and promote intolerance. From that stems violence. Anyone has the right to claim themselves as god/his son/prophet and anyone has the right to critize them, do you agree?the quraish were intolerant. you sound like the media... turn everything against islam. lol
He was kicked out and the quraish would have killed them all if Hazrat Hamza did not arrive in time. when muhammad reclaimed mecca and came back with 10,000 men tell me how many lives he took? not a single life... even though they were the greatest enemies of the time. he could have roared into the city like genghis khan and cleared the whole place. why would he let them live and why would they later choose to follow his teachings? they could have left.
free speech is fine ... say whatever you like, but that doesn't mean start abusing that freedom. or is that the real purpose of free speech? if you want the freedom of speech to call my prophet names it is using freedom of speech as a tool to show your hatred. constructive criticism is always welcome as it helps to broaden the mind. low blows do not help your own credibility.The muslims were really tolerant to the prophetess? The quraish didn't kill Muhammed.
They could have left? Yea, so why didn't the palestinians leave?
Say those to those who don't know history.
In freedom there is no abuse.
Wasn't Muhammed abusing the freedom by criticizing the lixal gods?
There is no prophets or gods only people who claim themselves to be. So everyone should have the freedom to critize anyway they choose.
You are contradicting yourself here, you allow Muhammad the freedom but not to others. Double standard?you will have to give me the facts on this prophetess. i think there were many such fake prophets after muhammad passed. they even joined together to fight against the muslims.
here i say the muslims took over mecca peacefully and you give me an example of a place where palestinians are constantly being bombed. there is no comparison to be made.
Muhammad criticised yes. but that was constructive criticism, which i mentioned is fine. even if you criticise islam, make it constructive and it will be acceptable.
Either all prophets are fakes or none are.
It's not always others that started the fight.
Peacefully, never but of course they didn't have bombs and rockets. You said the quraish could have left, if so palestinians could also leave..its comparable, why not?
Constructive criticism???
There is no constructive criticism for violence unleashed by the so called followers of islam. Muhammad's constructive criticism (calling their gods as fakes was indeed constructive) was only till he was powerful (that too from a whitewashed islamic history) after that it was sword's that spoke. He removed all the gods from mecca didn't he? Why should a few "prophets" deserve death for criticizing? What criticism deserves death?
What was al Hallaj's fault?
What constructive criticism are you offering by calling those prophets whom you don't approve as fakes?you don't seem to know the meaning of constructive criticism...
1. give a statement which criticises a certain belief or the whole system
2. prove that your argument is correct with facts
3. give a solution.
and most of all be realistic and unbiased in all three points, keeping in mind we are not living in the ideal bubble we wish to live in.
this is what i see as constructive criticism ... asking me for my opinions over what other people have done is useless... because the next muslim you meet may have a different opinion to mine. I was not there and i don't know both sides of the story, therefore i have no right to judge between right and wrong.So on what grounds do you call some prophets fake.
1.There is no god- fact, for god is a rational and logical impossibility.
2.Hence any one claiming to be god or from god is a fake
3. Reject such nonsense
Here I gave answer to all your points. Now tell how you constructively criticised the prophetess.
Why your opinion is asked? Because you are one who is here justifying intolerance.I was expecting paragraphs not sentences. i'll reply in the same fashion.
1. a prophet tells you about what the future holds both immediate and distant future.
2. muhammad's every prediction was true ... the prophetess was false.
3. reject the prophetess.1. No
2. False claim
3. Do you do that by killing?you can't ask a question in point 3... it has to be a solution, otherwise we will end up in circles again... please give me a link to the story of the prophetess. i need to know more before i can pick a side.
Abu Afak and Asma bint Marwan.
Later (not during muhammad's time) Al Hallaj.
You rejected the prophetess by killing.
