A helping hand for those believers who need to attack atheism, but lack the ability to think of anything to say for themselves. I came across this in my travels. This is cut and pasted from CARM, the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry:
"Dealing with atheism is actually easy to do. They don't have any evidence for their atheism and they can't logically prove there is no God. They can only attack the Bible and attack Christians' ideas of God. But, if you listen to them, you can soon find that their logic has many holes in it. It takes practice, but you can do it.
The following statements are for copying and pasting into chat rooms. Use them to see how atheists react. Use them to learn how to respond better to atheists. Please understand that these are not "stoppers." But, they can be challenging to atheists. Also, see how long it takes before they become condescending. Do not return their condescension. Instead, ask them to give rational reasons for their positions. In the process of interacting with them, learn how to argue with them better.
1. Ways to Attack Atheism
1. By asking questions.............."
The rest is here:
http://www.carm.org/apologetics/cut-and … on/atheism
I do actually have a serious question - why would anyone feel the need to do this? I noticed one of our believer friends doing this the other day - cutting and pasting some one else's words as an attack on other's lack of belief in their belief system.
This entire web page, and indeed the site seems almost entirely devoted to "defending the faith" against Wicca, Mormonism, Atheism etc. They do have an interesting new meaning of the word "logic" though.
Thoughts? Is this what christianity is all about?
"If you say that atheism is simply lack of belief in a god, then my cat is an atheist the same as the tree outside and the sidewalk out front, since they also lack faith. Therefore, your definition is insufficient."
Commie Atheists are not welcome in my house, so kitty needs to find a new home.
I must admit, that cut/paste thing annoyed me, too. Debate is healthy, and I welcome people with different opinions to mine, as long as they can back it up. There was no attempt to answer any reasonable points put forward, only to attack those who did not fit an extremely narrow and restrictive definition of 'Christian.'
Oh yes - some of their "counter arguments" are laughable. I don't see the point in cutting and pasting an opinion in this way. It rather defeats the object of having a discussion in the first place. A bit like shouting someone down in a conversation in the real world. Odd.
Like i keep on saying - irrational beliefs make people behave irrationally.
Your definition of discussion does not necessarily correspond to theirs
To say there are no absolute truths is an attempt to state an absolute truth. If your statement is true, then it is self contradictory, and not true and you are wrong.
If you lack belief in God, then why do you go around attacking the idea of God? If you also lack belief in invisible pink unicorns, why don't you go around attacking that idea?
Ah Sufi, those pink unicorns! Invisible yet sublime.....
Debating on the existence of God is a sure-fire way to find someone to play with here on Hub-Pages. There will always be strong opinions on this subject.
Too right, but copy/paste takes away all of the fun. How can anybody enjoy it?
marine - The fact that they encourage copying information, instead of developing an opinion, shows that free thought is low down on the list of priorities.
They don't seem to realise that it makes them look incredibly stupid
I cannot go to the web site that you posted (my lap top needs medical attention) But I can imagine what it like there. All I can say is besides dont be rude to me:) is that Jesus taught he did not preach. When asked a question by someone with doubts of belief,He was kind not demanding. His message was simple and Im sure you know what that message was and some chose to follow him and others simply went on there way.Until his trial ofcourse. But until then the general public either listened or walked away. He never chased anyone down or swore at them for their decision. For those who chose to believe ,also chose to try and the key word is try,to be like him .It is not hard to tell when people who say they are Christian do not even try to protray the message of Christ. As a rule I will try. As a human, I will only take so much. What I think alot of the ones I have seen lately here tend to forget is that to God sin is sin. He can not look on my SMALLEST possible sin any easier than He can look upon anothers Greatest possible sin.To Him they are just sin. If the church would remind themselves of this as often as they remember to pass the offering plate than perhaps by their nature,they would not push so many people away.Just my thoughts. If someone Knows nothing or if they ask, kindly tell them what you can or send them to someone who has studied and can inform them better than yourself. If they dont ask leave them be. Jesus never said to be "Saved" protects you from life. Infact we are told that the rain will fall on the just and the unjust alike. I get very discouraged when I hear someone "PREACH" as if you do what THEY tell you ,your life will be perfect. That does sound like a cult, but Jesus did not teach such. He ws also humble. Standing befor God,He could not look upon me the same as he could not look upon you. Our sins are equal in his eyes and I say this not even knowing what your greatest sin may be. The church needs to collect some basic scriptures in the offering plate instead of $$ every chance they get. ..just my opinion. SOMEONE pleezz stop me already !
"Ways to "attack" Atheism"? Why would a God fearing man want to "attack" anyone elses belief? Wouldn't this contradict Gods "free will" and "free thought" to believe what they want to believe? I beleive in God through individual thought, I do not need "others" to decide my faith and belief. As far as atheism, would God not agree with atheism. For God gave that person "free will" and "free thought" to believe the atheism. As far as people "defending" their religion, how many of those people believe in something without question. In my opinion, any thoughts of the individuals idea of God or no God is respected as long as that individual questions that belief internally and externally.
Well - this is what I was asking. They claim to have 4 million visitors a year and that "it is vital that Christians learn why their faith is defensible, logical, and evidential so they defend the truth and reach the lost"
"...always be prepared to make a defense..." (1 Peter 3:15) is their tagline.
This might get long. Sorry.
I don't like to argue. I used to be a very confrontational person who wanted to get up in everybody's face, but then I was a Pagan and felt the need to defend my faith. I don't any more. I am a Christian, and I'm happy with that. You don't need to be because it's not about you -- it's about me.
I would prefer to see past personal belief structure to see the person. I don't personally believe that religion necessarily has anything to do with morality. Your being an atheist doesn't mean that you are going to go looting and pillaging, and my being a Christian doesn't mean that I am a pillar of virtue.
All too often "religious" folks give off the impression that they are (feel) superior to others, and that is really what I think is the root of the problem. I'm not better than any of you who are atheists -- just different. My values might be different from yours (and I could stand by mine being "better" the same as you could stand by yours being "better" and we would just never agree! ) or they might *not* be different than yours. My personal system of values and morals doesn't come from a religious background anyway.
I personally feel that those who feel the need to constantly defend their faith aren't very secure in it. I was going through this recently, I admit. There were several reasons for that insecurity that I don't want to talk about, but it's true that was feeling as though I had to have a way to "support" the reasons I believe as I do. Thank goodness I don't feel that way any more!
I highly doubt that you are actually bothered by this, Mark (other than to be disgusted by it), but I would honestly just ignore it. If somebody requires such a document to tell them what they believe in, they probably aren't worth taking the time to debate.
Well - I am "sort of" bothered by it because it is promoting the idea that you do not need to think for yourself. Which is one of my main arguments against religions.
Religions are based on the teachings of the most intelligent men this planet has seen.Their words defy time something most men cannot do.Trying to understand them takes great intelligence, the need to think for oneself.
The prophets on whom religions are based have understood the highest truths as to who we are ,where we have come from and why are we here .
The great, great master Guru Nanak " you need to be in a similar vibration to understand me or else you will call me a fool" .
Today is Buddha purnima, the full moon day when the great,great Buddha gained enlightenment, the pinnacle of human achievement. man becomes-god-man.
Clearly you did not look at the site I linked to. They are not trying to help people understand them - nor are they trying to help people think for themselves.
Almost no one "tries to understand them," and saying you do because you have great intelligence merely makes you appear arrogant and condescending rather than foolish.
Religions are guidelines set by great masters and I do understand them and spread the same knowledge as they did in today's times.
Arrogant and condescending because I understand, so all the enlightened ones are condescending and arrogant for you but not for everyone.
What do you think the meaning of this is "Guru Nanak- you need to be in a similar vibration to understand me or else you will call me a fool"- it means similar intelligence.
Did you even read that site I linked to?
No I didnt ,you mentioned religions .
You also made a statement earlier that any fool can see that religions and god are two different things. This is my statement- "any fool can see that religions and god is the same thing" .
Now you are demonstrating ignorance and stupidity. Clearly you have never read the bible. And if you did - you did not understand it. It warns against religion.
And the people that blindly follow them.
Case in point.
Go look at the page I linked to and see what I mean.
Whatever.Only stupid an arrogant people can get ranked over the Bible and Quran.
Like I said,,,,,,,,
Peace today is Buddha Purnima and I don't want to fight with you or anyone
Interesting take - I rather suspect intelligence is not the key, here.
I have always been highly intelligent, even in my most unenlightened phases of life. It did not make me in any way a better person, in fact my observation is that it tended to get in the way of my being a better person, because it made me very good at rationalising.
The gurus who mention the loneliness of enlightened life generally do so in fairly humble tones.
I would say that the mark of true enlightenment is the recognition of how little we know - aka, humility.
Intelligence tends to lead to arrogance (it certainly did for me), while enlightenment leads to compassion.
If you hear the guru's words as arrogant and condescending, then you may have some road to travel in the enlightenment stakes, yourself.
Alternatively, as English is your second language, it may simply be that you might not realise the nuances attached to those words. They both carry the connotation of a lot of ego, which cannot coexist with enlightenment.
Self defense.I am a nice person and like being nice, I don't like being rude.People who know me say he doesn't harm anyone, he wants good for all.I think and write in English.
I understand the gurus words perfectly as the same is happening in my life.Our lives are very, very similar.
Mark, it is not about an intellect. It is about the faith. This is what counts. Actually the faith is an issue. The faith problem - doubt is what got us to troubles. It is not how smart we are. Do we really know what we do not know?
Mark my friend. It is different practicing religion and practicing faith, believe me. Acting faith is mentally very busy. .
I think it is more than just an impression. Since people of most religions believe that they will be saved, and others will not, they are, according to their religion, somewhat superior.
Honestly, I feel the same way, I do not understand those religious people who would go out of their way to attack other religion or non-believers. I also feel the need to express this, they think they are theologically smart over others basing everything from the Bible that they read, but not practicing and applying anything from it to themselves and their everyday life. To learn from reading is an enrichment of one's being, but that is not an excuse to use as a weapon to personally attack and criticize other people's belief.
Very well said !
elinjo, do I spell it right? I must agree with your statement about religious people. I would want to apology for them. I hate religion. They criticize and feel superior... But I would like to ask you favor. Would you try to be Christian, I mean believer, not religious and do better as religious do? Then I will give you personally a compliment. When we criticize others we are the same as they are.
I couldn't put it any better;)
1) you are so right about that.. Christ was killed by the religious people of his day and till today religious folks are doing some of the biggest havoc.. Nah! being religous wont take you anywhere thats what my pastor says and I believe that.
2) As a believer in Christ, I have to see that everyone is a creation of God so I can never be superior God's creation and I dont believe anyone is superior to me
Someday I would like to discuss Atheism.....
Meanwhile my religion is Faith in Christ and Love your neigbour as yourself. Thats the name of my religion.
The Romans weren't particularly religious or motivated by religion, I reckon.
it is promoting the idea that you do not need to think for yourself. Which is one of my main arguments against religions.
I agree 200% on this.
Some christians find it easier to judge but forget we are not the judge or the jury I am a christian I strongly believe in my faith in God but I have no need to down talk anyone Love thy neighbor regardless of their beliefs. I'm sorry if you ran into someone who tried to push their love for God on you somepeople become overwhelmed with their feelings that they tend to forget LOVE and let God.
I believe in pink unicorns. I worship my deity one-on-one, not as part of any organized universalist unicornian fellowship (although I leave room for the idea there are others out there like me).
My right to worship the pink unicorn (I'll call him PU for short) is protected by law in my country.
I am well aware that others may scoff at the idea of a PU as deity.
It is not in my nature to try to prove them wrong, or to prove me right. They are entitled to worship anything (or nothing) they choose. I am entitled to worship my PU.
It seems so simple when written out this way. I must really be missing something in the "real" argument:-)!! MM
Because we have right it does not mean we are right. Right of choice in this country was given by God. God love you and I do too. Maybe it will help.
Mark (and his groupies) if you lack belief in God, then why do you go around attacking the idea of God? If you also lack belief in invisible pink unicorns, why don't you go around attacking that idea?
Source - http://www.carm.org/apologetics/cut-and … on/atheism
Mighty Mom has the right to believe in pink unicorns all she wants. Don't start attacking her now just cause it's an organized religion.
Haha Mark, awesome.
People of faith and people who lack it really should just join hands and go have a beer.
We're all here on this rock together, and if you don't learn to live with yourselves you're just not being a good human.
I agree we all go through ups and downs Life and Death
The less we talk about each other's beliefs and the more we live to give and love the better off we all are...redemption is in a child's face, the laughter of family and friends...regardless of whether you feel you're going to a pearly gate or not.
Accroding to the CARM website: The following statements are for copying and pasting into chat rooms.
Religion aside, as a catechist I wonder how anyone imagines that this approach is a replacement for education? Giving someone lines to paste into chat rooms doesn't educate them in the philosophical, allegorical, and theological foundations of their faith, philosophy, or any other type of opinion. What a strange and intellectually lazy approach.
I have no idea why someone would wish to "attack [insert belief system here]." As a parent, I will certainly educate my children as to why I think the beliefs I'm passing onto them are objectively true, and I will do so in part by pointing out what I see as fallacy in other faiths and philosophies, but not for the purpose of sending them out on the "attack."
@ Specificity - I am having trouble understanding how a belief can be "objective" - surely by doing as you say you are setting them up to believe that your beliefs are "right" and other's are "fallacious"?
@ G|M - my point exactly
@ Aragon - you can discuss atheism with me anytime
Just got back from the woods; sorry about the wait.
You and I have beliefs that are mutually exclusive. I believe there is a God (or gods or a higher power of some kind that is greater than us). You don't. One of us is right, so one of us holds a belief that is true. The other does not. One of our beliefs is an objective truth that is not open to interpretation.
I'm not sure I understand you here. I don't know if you have any children, but if you did, it seems you would probably teach them to have as little respect for religion as I have seen from you (so far you've referred to me or my beliefs as brainwashed, delusioned, a cult, and a few mischaracterizations of our practices). Wouldn't you teach your children that religion is fallacious and atheism is true?
I work and live among a very diverse group of faiths and lifestyles. While I will teach my children what is right, they will also learn to respect others and their beliefs as my wife and I do. Equipped with an excellent education in cathechism and the liberal arts, my children will be able to go out and benefit from the knowledge of others (as my wife and I have) and either be able to defend their faith in debate, or make an intelligent and informed (not an emotional) decision to move onto something else.
Not really. I do not see how a belief in a higher power can be "objective." Your original statement was that you had made an "objective," decision.
I do teach them to have no respect for religion. I also encourage them to make their own decisions based on the information at hand. You have no information. Only subjective beliefs. Any history book will show you the true nature of religion and your own book and jesus tell you it is worthless and to be avoided.
I do not see how you can make an intelligent and informed decision about believing in something that does not exist. You have made an emotional decision only. Indoctrinated into a particular cult. That is all.
Don't even know what a "liberal art" is I'm afraid.
Or why you would need to "defend your faith."
well, defending faith could be either against other people ideas or could be against yourself ideas
defending faith may be useful for some people to feel secure
or it could be for protecting the truth to help especially youth to understand life in one's view
there are many reasons for protecting a faith
for you Mark you defend atheism because you think religions are the cause of life problems and you want to save life by atheism even if you are not sure about it
it worth the trial
Why are you worried Mark about if God exists?
I am not worried. I am sick and tired of having it pushed at me. Why are you worried that I do not believe?
And why do you have an avatar depicting a white jesus? Politics? Religion?
religious people think materializm would destroy nations as you think about religions
Lack of religion doesn't make someone materialist.
Being religious certainly doesn't make someone not materialist, either.
Materialism is deadly. What is going on is result of it. Materialists seen only material (money)[greed] and power. Why cost is going up without reason?
Believing is a choice. What counts for me on the picture is the risen and resurrected Christ. My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, He is a Spirit.
Need a shoulder to cry on? Whats the matter, you dont like others pissing allover your beliefs?
I don't have a belief. Sorry - what are you not understanding about that?
I am the one pissing on irrational beliefs. And thanks for the offer - I do occasionally need a shoulder to cry on, but I feel your offer was not an genuine one.
You can no more prove there is no God than I can materially prove there is. One of our views is objectively true. I think it is mine. There is only one way to find out.
The second half of that statement is a gross mischaracterization that sounds like you copied and pasted it out of some How To Attack Religion website. You say it over and over, but you can't back it up because that would require some study of the bible and a novice scholar would shoot you down in an instant.
As for the first half of that statement, it sounds like your children will be intolerant and immediately dismissive of anything a religious person has to say because you think we are mentally weaker than you. Remember, this all started when I wrote a post agreeing with you that the CARM website and their methodology are crap.
This explains a lot. The contemporary liberal arts are: history, philosophy, art, literature, foreign language, politics, mathematics, and science. At many universities, one can get a degree in liberal arts only, but parents can do a lot to make sure their kids get an excellent liberal arts education in high school.
Because it is constantly under attack. When a child has had proper faith formation along with a liberal arts education, they become well-rounded people able to defend their beliefs. Perhaps every religious person you know is thoughtlessly on autopilot, but such is not the case in my family, and such is not the kind of faith called for by the Church.
As an aside, you've said that you're sick of having religion pushed to you all the time. I don't know what the rest of your life is like, but here I see you jumping into the fray, inviting religious discussion, and then complaining about it.
This is not the same as making an objective decision. Nor does it make either one of them objectively true. We could both be wrong. There may be a god, but you completely missed the point. This is semantics (as is the rest of your statement.)
So - does this mean that you are another one who feels there is no burden of proof?
Let's put it this way - I would have absolutely no need whatsoever to say "there is no god." If no one said "there is a god."
How do you think this conversation began?
Now explain to me how your personal belief is under attack. Or it could even be attacked? And why you need to "defend" it.
And "liberal arts" seems to be everything. Might have been easier to tell me which subject is not a liberal art
Not just semantics. Take it one question at a time. If there is a God, then I'm right about that. That's true. Then there are other questions like: what is the nautre of God? (Monotheistic, polytheistic, monistic). As I asked the other questions and sought out their answers, I was drawn to the faith I have today.
As for the proof, that is something that I discuss with people individually, but I will not open it up to discussion, or rather ridicule, here. Suffice to say that along the way, the existence of God has been proved beyond a doubt in my life.
Indeed, if no one ever offered an opinion different from mine, I would never have a need to disagree with anyone and we could all hold hands and sing We Are the World.
Mark, you probably don't see your own words as an attack on my faith, so I don't know what your definition of attack is. I made a post agreeing with you about something, and you zeroed in on the one thing that you didn't agree with and here we are. You seem to be obsessed with attacking religion wherever you see it. While making it clear that you certainly have a right to speak your mind on any forum here, I am fascinated by your desire to piss on any discussion of religion. It seems that a person cannot try to seriously discuss their faith here without being ridiculed by you. And you love it! You, sir, are a Crusader for Atheism. Raise your kids to think as you do, they'll raise theirs the same, and in a couple of generations, they'll be able to spread atheism by the sword, or use government to crush relgious dissent (as in N. Korea or China or the USSR). Your disdain for religion will breed the very intolerance you claim religion breeds.
Fair enough. A better explanation is found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts. It's not just the subjects, but the balance between them that is important. For example, students in the USA get lots of math in high school, but it comes at the expense of philosophy and history. One can graduate from college here without taking a single history course. I was blessed enough to attend a private high school that was liberal arts intensive.
It is semantics because the point I am making is that you have not made a subjective decision. You have made an objective decision based on something that you feel will be ridiculed as not being adequate proof. Which means it is something subjective.
Wouldn't that be nice. Instead we have this. Once again though, you have missed my point - intentionally or not, I am not sure.
The fact is that there is no objective proof of a god. I would not need to say "there is no god," if people did not keep saying there is. And people have been telling me there is my whole life.
So - I stand up against religion because I see it as irrational, evil, manipulative and responsible for several of the large problems the world faces.
Just like it tells me to in the bible.
I hear people tell me all the time that America is a "christian nation."
If that were true - instead of having christians standing outside family planning clinics with placards of photo of dead babies - they would be washing the feet of the girls after their abortion.
See the last point I made. Where do you think all the "competing" religions have come from?
And now you can tell the future also. What you fail to see is that it is the religion that starts the entire process. Without the irrational belief and political dogma associated with it - there would be no backlash.
And I don't think it is fair to say that I piss on any discussion about religion. I certainly have a view that is opposed to religion. Which I feel is as valid as anyone else's opinion.
I still fail to see how you can "defend" a faith.
Ah - thank you. Where I come from, we just call that an education.
Actually this is not true. There is a good chance that both of you are right and everybody receives according to their believes. While Mark will turn into a spec of dust after death, you will eternally burn in hell
I figured. =P Was trying to be the only one not so obtuse for once.
Sometimes I wonder why the atheists are worried and debate grossly about their concepts on non existence of God. What does that really tell you?
I was an atheist and I just didn't understand anything on spirituality.Today I do.
I had this book "Autobiography of a Yogi" by Paramhansa Yogananda in my house since I was a kid. I loved reading and would often get shouted at for reading late into the night and not sleeping.
I just couldn't go through the very first page of "Autobiography of a Yogi" though I tried a few times, just couldn't connect or understand what he was trying to say.
I'm happy for you brother, you now know better in the realities of the things of the Spirit thereby denying yourself the pride of self, science, and religion.
I'm not surprised by the article. MOST believers (notice the emphasis on most) don't understand the atheist point of view and have absolutely no interest in trying. The article is just one big meandering word salad that could be used to hopefully trip up an atheist making it appear as though the believer had won the argument. They have to do this because "the Bible says..." just doesn't work anymore.
No. Which proves my point.
Mark, I'll let that be the last word. I have reams of client work to do (which is good!) so I'll have to bow out. Catch you later.
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