Is God a vengeful God? If I don't believe, am I condemned to 'burn'?
If I lead a life where I am selfless, constantly help people, give away my money and live in a 'Christian' way, will I still be condemned to 'burn' if I simply don't believe in God?
It sure seems that way. Thats assumming there is a god as we precieve him in the first place and that's not likely. Humanity has been living in a religious cacoon since day one. I just wrote a book on the subject and if I'm wrong, and all the scriptures are right, then God has to be a merciless SOB as pointed out in Doo's Forum at my "fool around" site dooahhh1.com. Think of the 220,000 dead people from the Indian Ocean tsunami a few years ago. Is that mercy? Is that what you would do to your kids or even let happen? I don't think so....
Question everything and only believe in what you can prove. There arent any religions in the entire world that can prove one damn thing about what they believe and if your really interested, read my book "Up One Level". You'll see the damage to humanity being done by organized religions since day one and if we don't bring an end to this insanity soon, humanity is doomed to destroy itself with it's very one and out of control weapons of mass destruction. No big deal up until 30 years or so ago, now it's a whole new ballgame. If we allow the religious hate to continue, you might as well sell your assets and enjoy yourself because none of us will be around much longer...
My God is a loving God who would not burn sinners for eternity in hell. Hell has long been used to keep both worshippers and the masses towing the "company line".
Hell does not exist. The Bible is full of allegories, metaphors, parables and other illustrative narratives designed to tell the story of Christ to the peoples of the times. It is human nature to better understand when a story is interwoven into the reality being taught.
As humans, we all tend to exaggerate. Take the expression, "I'll give you the moon and the stars!" Obviously, this is an impossibility; but, is instead a way of stating your overwhelming love for this person.
This is the case in the bible. When judgement comes, people will either remain in the presence of God or they won't.
No one will burn eternally; but, there will be people who are removed from the presence of God. This is the hell the bible talks about.
The 2 commandments are: love God and love your neighbor. The whole act of creation was about love. We fall short of it many times.
You fulfill the second prescription of love when as you write, "[what if] I lead a life where I am selfless, constantly help people, give away my money and live in a 'Christian' way...", however you miss the source from which love eminates which makes the second commandment possible. Why be good to your neighbor? Why? So you can get something in return? That is not "self-less" which you prescribe in your condition. That is a "self-ish" act which eminates from an earthly, evolutionary survival instinct. The hypothetical you present is somewhat strained. Only when you can give love completely to God, will love of neighbor come freely, with no strings.
Nonetheless, the parable of the prodigal son has the lessons for both those that fall into your second condition ("if I simply don't believe in God?") as well as the faithful believers. The "good" brother in the parable was irritated when his father welcomed his son that had gone astray with a feast. The "good" son explained to his father it was he that kept his father's demands and yet no party, not even recognition was ever given him. Thus, on one hand, an infintiely loving God will welcome you if you wish to believe even if it is at the moment of revelation. In the end you will need to decide if you want to be with God in true love. If you "will" not to love, then you have the choice not to be in his presence, no strings. And for the faithful: true love is not a demand, a burden.
My Dear Sweet Friends,
Of course not. That is the silliest thing, a creator who express hatred for the creature created. In addition, we art all in control of own individual self unto the extent that any belief is a personal belief whereas what is believed affectest one's own life, and not that of others. If you believe that there is no God, then there isn't. If you believe in a punishing God, then thou hadst better be obedient unto that God.
Its all your choice take a route
De:30:19: I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
M't:6:33: But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
M't:5:20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Without the existance of GOD, who created all of us; just being a good person DOES NOT GUARANTEE that you will not suffer the consequences of not acknowleding him . Without believing, and having faith in him you may be putting yourself in jeopardy.
The decision is yours, because we have a free will to believe or not believe.
If you look at the punishment more than the love from God then you will miss everything there is to know about who he is. You can give all of your money away and lhelp thousands of people and still be lost. Love is the only key to pleasing God. and when you truly love from the heart you truly love God. I can tell you alot more but I'm sure I would affend someone..
I'm with Craig. Until God comes along and confirms it himself - It can't be proved...
Some people try and preach that there are many ways to get into Heaven. Oprah is one of these people. She's told people on national television that there are several ways to get to the same place... through being nice, helping others, and so on.
That's not the case.
There is only one way to get there, through God's Son Jesus Christ. If you don't believe in him, then yes, Hell would be your final resting place.
He's not a vengeful God. He loves you even when you don't believe. At any point in your life, you can turn to Him, ask for forgiveness, and have a strong relationship with Him.
Here's some things to think about:
1) If you don't believe in God, what concern do you even have with an afterlife? Why worry about "burning" if you don't even believe Heaven and Hell exist?
2) God doesn't expect you to sell everything you own. He only wants 2 things from you. Your faith and your love. Only when you learn to love God, will you have a love for people. Helping people constantly shouldn't be considered a burden, rather a blessing, a wonderful opportunity that God has given you to influence the life of someone else. Appreciate it.
3) It doesn't hurt anyone believing in God. When we all die one day, at least those who believe have hope for eternity, while non-believers don't. If you're right, then so what? Still in the same place, but if you're wrong.... and God does exist, and Jesus did die for your sins, and there is a life after death with Him in Heaven, you're going to be missing out.
Hope you find peace in your life.
I am a Christian man and I have long struggled with the reality of hell and what it represents.
I know what the bible says about hell. I know that Jesus spoke of hell more than anyone in the entire bible.
Still; I am unable to reconcile an eternity of punishment with an all powerful all loving God.
In some ways the idea of an eternity of torture diminishes God in that Gods nature is so magnanamous; how could it be that God would want you to be tortured forever as opposed to just unmaking you.
What pleasure can God possibly get from your eternal suffering?
As I said I know the biblical reason for hell but I struggle with this supposed reality.
Being a Unitarian Universalist (the Universalist being the key word for this answer) I can not believe in a vengeful God.
This became especially clear to me when I had children of my own.
1. I became aware of the human body and the various chemical imbalances that can change a person, not to mention environmental issues. I am often appauled by the horror in the world, but can not see it in a vaccuum. A horrible person often has addiction and/or health issues. Many insane people have terribly inbalanced thyroids which totally mess up their brain, For example, my abusive mother was bipolar, her abusive mother was schizophenic.
2. I could never be vengeful at my own child. I could be greatly horrified or disappointed, but I could never disown a child. I would hold my child responsible for their actions, but I could never stop loving them.
So, I can not see our "father" being like that to us. We were made in his image (if that is part of your belief system) and we have free will. But we are all, always, children of God.
After all, a father who burned their child would have the child taken away from him and be found guilty of abuse. This kind of God would not be the one of love. There is no sin for which a human being should be burned, either here or in the after life.
I honestly don't think he exists. I don't consider myself an atheist, since I believe that there can be spirituality without believing in an invisible man in the sky, so I don't think I will be condemned to 'burn' for not believing in the bearded man in the sky.
The only ones that condemn each other are ourselves. We make our own hells - hell is other people.
I believe there might be a force out there (say, the universe) that guides everything, but no "god," per se.
I guess if I had to choose a label, I would call myself a spiritual atheist. Or a naturalist. I don't like labels when it comes to religion since religion is such a personal thing.
If a judge passed righteous sentence on a criminal, is that revenge? No, it is justice. Justice is like nature. If you jump up, you will fall down; if you touch a flame, you will burn; if you cut yourself, you will be wounded. There is nothing confusing there. God cannot burn you in hell but you can.
If you do not believe in the known God, it might be because he was not introduced to you properly; but if you do his will without knowing it, just because you are honest to your conscience, then you actually believe in God. You will be praised by him for that. If you have the reasons to believe but you did not, then you are fooling yourself; that would condemn you "for whatever is not from faith is sin."
may be not. God give human the freedom to choose but He also wants human to bear the possible consequences of his choice, good or bad.
This answer will seem a bit harsh, but hey, it's an open forum, right?
I see the idea of a vengeful God as both an archaic concept and as a reflection of our own limitations. Since punishment is the closest that we can come to justice, we have invented a God who deals with injustice in the same way. And since the world - particularly in ancient times - is so brutal, we assume that God must be harsh as well.
It's hard for me to believe that a being wise and powerful enough to create the universe would behave like such a simpleton. Experience tells me that it is highly unlikely that all of humankind is split into two extreme categories in some sort of an eternal afterlife. Reality is too complex for that. Plus, eternity is a heck of a long time. Any loving being would not subject his creatures to that kind of treatment, no matter how "sinful" those creatures might be.
Plus, it's hard to believe that life is some sort of a quiz in which we are expected to find the right answer from a myriad of religious options. So if you don't come to the right conclusions about a guy who lived 2,000 years ago, you are doomed for eternity. The only reason people see that belief as normal is because people in a predominantly Christian society are conditioned to think that way.
And "mbwalz," I am also a Unitarian Universalist, and I agree with your statements in regards to parenting.
The myth here is God's love is conditional. Any true love in unconditional. He has given us free will. It would not be free will it he is going to punish us, Many will find this impossible to accept or too good to accept. The truth is God is too Good for us to accept.
However, there can be natural consequences to every action you make. This can be good or undesirable. That is not because God is punishing us.
Even God has failed if he send us to hell, if there is one. Some even believe that God can fail in saving us.
I cannot imagine God being vengeful. Even my dog would try to save me for fire or danger. I don't wish eternal damnation for anyone.
Is the supreme loving God worse than me or my dog?
Venegfulness is a sign of a weak loser. Is the Almighty one a sick loser.? Or is it true that God could foresee what he was getting into? God could easily anticipate the future and avoid things he does not wish to accept
Jesus did not tell us to be selfless. He said love you neighbor as you love yourself. That means you should also take care of yourself too. If all I have is a dollar to support me, why should I be selfless and give it to Bill Gates. However, if you have more than you need, you could share it will those who are less fortunate or in need.
Still God will not damn you to Hell. These are written by insecure persons who are in the habit of controlling others by fear. Monarchs and dictators may use fear to control the masses. Unlike humans, God does not use or need to use fear to get his wishes. All he has to do is call forth his wish and it will be there.
Most of what we know about God from outside sources is interpreted by those studying the idea ... it is a matter of some group of theologian answering the question, what is God like? In the old testament, the idea was that God was vengeful and destroyed those who did not obey him. In the new testament, Jesus brought a new message of love and forgiveness and mercy. For me, the Divine holds no vengeful frequencies.
Well, if you read the bible, you'll find out that there's no such thing as hell lol, so don't go by christian teachings ^-^ usually they're contradictive and incorrect, no offense to all you christians out there.
What would lead you to a life led like that, if not following a religious calling?
God cannot punish anyone 'for all eternity'. Eternity - as a concept - is an absolute, it is one, indivisible thing and cannot be subdivided into the period of eternity BEFORE you were cast into the lake of fire (Gehenna: which was a perpetually burning rubbish tip on the outskirts of biblical Jerusalem - it actually existed) and another period AFTER you received the judgement of God.
Eternity cannot be parcelled out (into periods of 'eternity') or interrupted - and, whilst I'm at it, infinity cannot be demarcated.
Chew on that.
Jesus Christ showed humanity how to live on the earth which is the way of life for human beings. Jesus showed mankind that every human being is love peace free to the core of their being. Jesus also showed many times over how to deal with people who are not being love being peace being free in wisdom for the moment at hand. GOD is absolutely not vengeful but want people to come to the true knowledge of who they are which is LOVE PEACE FREE. People bring it on their own selves by not being love peace free. Good news for you SimeyC if you don't believe. You are not condemned to burn. You can take that to the heavenly bank and cash it in. You see the devil believe GOD and will burn and be cast into the lake of fire which in my opinion will be cast into the black holes that we have throughout the universe and he will never be able to escape from the black hole. So there is a purpose for black holes and that is to swallow up things that comes into its gravitational pull which nothing can escape once it gets beyond the point of no return.
We sin. We tend to do things our way instead of God's way. And he sees it and knows it. God does not merely overlook such sin, but is prepared to judge and condemn people for their sin. However, God is forgiving and will forgive us from the moment we begin a relationship with him. Jesus, the Son of God, paid for our sin with his death on a cross. He rose from the dead and offers us this forgiveness.
"We are made right in God's sight when we trust in Jesus Christ to take away our sins. And we all can be saved in this same way, no matter who we are or what we have done... We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us." (Romans 3:22,25)
Just like a person who lets you know their thoughts and feelings, God clearly tells us about himself, the possible difference being, he is always honest. Everything he says about himself, or about us, is reliable information. Truer than our feelings, thoughts, and perception, God is totally accurate and honest in what he says. Every promise he makes to us can be fully counted on, he means it. We can take him at his word.
"The unfolding of your words gives light;
it gives understanding to the simple.
Your word is a lamp to my feet
and a light to my path." (Psalms 119:130,105)
God ... Is Just.
Unless in your False Concept ... Justice, means Revenge.
What we get, is of What we do ... Most would burn, if The Lord were not The Infinitely Merciful, and Forgiving One.
Are you really sure you don't believe? Why is it on your mind? I can guess that you may have once called out to God without even thinking about it. You may have been pulled over or gotten in trouble from your parents, or almost died in an accident, but I am sure that you would have cried, "Oh GOD..." since your spirit knows the father. If you did not believe you would not ask.
Yes, because you cannot do anything to be saved from God's wrath and hell.
"All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God."
"For the wages of sin is death."
God Himself already did took care of it through the birth, life, and death of His own Son. All you need to do is trust in work of Jesus done on your behalf.
And you already know God exists.
You just don't want to believe the truth.
But the truth will set you free, then the things you do will be done out of love for God, rather than works to gain eternal life.
Does that make sense?
No, you are not condemned to burn. The vengeful God they teach you off is only a tool created by man to control you through fear and guilt. God, if he does exist is not concerned with petty things. He is too great, too wonderful to be the God of institutionalised religion.
Yes, I'm afraid so. The Bible plainly states that we must be born again. You can't get to heaven on your works. John 3:16 tells us, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life." This tells me that God created the world and that he wants each and everyone of us to be in heaven with him. God can't be around sin. God is perfect and sinless and we are sinners by nature. He sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins and if we believe Jesus is God's son and that he did die on the cross for our sins and that God raised him from the dead the third day and he lives with God in heaven and admit that we are sinners and ask Go to forgive our sins then we can ask Jesus into our hearts and be saved. Then and only then can you get to heaven.
Do you believe in yourself? Behind those beautiful, but temporary, Homo sapiens eyes lies a sleeping immortal. That's your true self. "Don't believe" all you wish, it won't make you go away. As the great mathematician and philosopher, Rene Descartes, once said, "dieu en moi" (God in me).
If God created gravity and you step off a tall building, will you go splat? Of course you will. That's God's vengeance. That's you killing yourself by your own actions. That's one example of the "burning."
Living a selfless, compassionate life is good, but what is the purpose of life? If you don't wake up your true self, then this body dies and you pick up a new one and start all over again, wetting diapers, sucking your mother's tit, and growing up to be a nice guy or gal, or perhaps something else, because of karma. What's the purpose beyond doing the same or similar things over and over, each lifetime?
Some people are polite, because it feeds their ego to be seen as someone nice. Some people are rude, because it feeds their ego to see themselves as important and powerful. Ego is the source of all "burning." If you serve that master, then you will suffer the consequences of your own choice, just like stepping off of a building. Don't blame it on that big guy you say doesn't exist (for he is within you).
Don't live your life in fear! i believe in god, but the catholic church has turned him into a spiteful vengeful....man.
There is no man in the sky waiting to punish your actions, god exists, but he is not a human. humans have emotions like anger and scornfulness because of chemical reactions that happen in our bodies in response to different stimuli. god does not have a physical body, therefore... how could he experience human emotion?
Humans think god is vengeful because we have been taught to believe that way for so long (by the church). if there was no fear of hell, nobody would need the church! the church wants you to need them, so they CREATE fear! without a "flock" the church would be no more.
somewhere along the time-line (after the teachings of jesus) a group of men, subverted that faith, and turned the church into an institution based on fear and lies.
god is within you! just like all of us! don't listen to the old white men in robes... dont even listen to me! do what YOU think is right in your life, thats all that matters...because we are here to learn.
MiseryHinata - you say the bible is full of contradictions, name one, I bet you can't.
Hell is not the equivalent measure of your sins... it is the measure of the free gift of eternal life Jesus paid for, that one refuses. God doesn't send people to hell, they condemn themselves to hell. God already did it all, all we need do, is believe.
How? Mankind was created perfect, but became imperfect by the sin of disobedience, thus man became seperated from God.
God had a plan to restore man's perfection. He sent his perfect, innocent Son, to pay for the sins of the world. There is nothing for you to do to earn it, simply have faith in Christ as the payment for your sins. Pretty simple.
Some folks say there is no God,
Some folks worship stones and clay,
the self righteous trusting in themselves,
and some folks try to earn their way,
But Jesus Christ paid for all your sins...
and the only way is...
Is you got,
you got to trust in him...
There are some concepts of God that make me cringe and want to run. Then there is the God of the Vedas (Veda means Knowledge). Visnu or Krsna is the GOd of the Vedas and he does not burn you for not believeing. This God creates material nature so we could enjoy material nature until we get tired and want to return back home to Godhead. I like this version much better.
I am not a fanatic, but I want to be happy with God being God and me being me. My suggestion is to seek outside the box.
A lot of people don't believe in God because they haven't seen him or felt him. The thing is that no one knows God's mind and what plans he has for us that was why he said we are not to judge anybody but to leave judgment for him, so the idea of not believing in him and living a selfless life and being kind to people is now left for God to decide whether you will burn or not. All I can say is that try living a holy life by showing love to one another, being kind to those you know and don't know and doing all those good things he expects from us. Remember he is a forgiving God, slow to anger but very merciful. If only you can find a place in your heart to know him and then see how gracious he is.
according to the bible, yes. probably a good thing that it's not true, then.
Yes. God is vengeful. If you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior (He is the only way to God), none of your efforts to be selfless, help people, or give away money will get you into Heaven. None of us can buy our way into Heaven. I'm telling you right now, God is not impressed!
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