Many of us who post threads in the religious forum have made an attack on Mark Knowles and I have seen it to be wrong!
As all hubbers Mark has the right to post his view point in which he believes in! The religious forum was not just based on Christianity it was based on Religion and BELIEFS!
We have pushed a man out of the forum for saying and expressing WHAT HE BELIEVES TO BE RIGHT (and yes sometimes he was pretty bold in his ways of expression)!
Many threads in this forum are highly opinionated; and the publisher feels that he/she has the right view point; why then can Mark not post his view points (and feel that he is right)?
However many times he made some pretty valid points! Mark I am apologizing on behalf of those hubbers (Includes me)whom attacked you in the religious and BELIEF forum! I feel all have the right to express their opinion and thoughts and that is all you have done!
I am asking you to come back and be a part of our community! I miss your ways and your threads!
Words spoken truly!
Religion isn't Christianity, though Christianity is a religion. Religion ... Religion is whatever a person chooses to believe in and to say there is room for nothing but Christianity in a religious forum is like saying there is room for nothing but ants in a world populated by life. After all ... ants are life, so what right do we have to be on this Earth?
This is the problem I have with the religious forum, as it seems the Christians have formed a line stating anyone who doesn't formally believe in Jesus should not pass through the hallowed halls of the religious forum, and that in my opinion is wrong, as it is the same religious subjugation that founded America to begin with.
Should not a Christian be faced with those that doubt, so that they might question their own faith and grow in their resolve? Look in the mirror and ask yourself ... if your God demanded all to worship him then is he not powerful enough to make it so?
Is there a limit to God's power? If not, then surely he could force us all to believe ... unless that were not his master plan.
Free will is God's greatest gift, and to take it away from another for thinking differently ... well obviously that is not godlike.
Yes, Mark spoke with a voice that spoke out against God, but did we ever ask him why? Surely a man who doesn't believe in a God has a reason that extends far beyond disbelief. A man doesn't form a crusade to disavow something unless he truly believes it exists and doesn't conform to what he was taught to believe.
When Mark tried to understand God all he was offered was versus and accusations that his thinking was all wrong. Then, once placed on the other side of the fence, he assumed that roll and fought for his right to free will.
This is how unbelievers are created ... through a process where they are alienated for questioning what others believe. It's a case of believe ... or be tossed aside.
For me, I chose to allow a man to believe what he will, so long as he believes in something. He doesn't need to call it God, but he needs to know that there is more than we are yet capable to explain.
Science has become Mark's God ... and that means the man believes in something. For that, I give him props ... and I carry the burden of shame for all those who saw him as nothing more than a crass, old man poking for a fight. He spoke of his own religion, which went against other's beliefs ... he only asked to have a voice, as the rest of us do ... but fear caused us to ask for his silence.
The devil never stands in the light ... he always hides in the shadows. As Mark stood among us in plain view, he was never a devil, but I feel he was made out as one, and for that I am deeply sad.
So ask yourself ... are your beliefs strong enough to withstand the questioning of others, or do more Mark's need to grow silent before your faith is secure?
This post was very profoundly said and my applaud to you! The words that were written could have not been said any better! At least Mark has/had the will power to stand to his belief and express himself!
Many Christians get insulted in this forum and go running to never come back again! For the longest time Mark stood Strong and explained his process of thinking!
Why can he not be applauded for such strength and will power in his own belief?
For many of us, we have been taught to see through eyes which only permit us to see what we have been taught to see. It takes a special human being to be able to see everything around him and learn to accept that the world is more than we have been taught to accept.
I try to see through all eyes, giving the opportunity for all to show me the part of the world they believe in. If only the rest of us could learn to do the same ... what an enlightened species we would become.
We do not live in darkness because we have beliefs ... we live in darkness because we can't conceive the beliefs of others *must* differ ... and I say *must* as we are individuals capable of individual thought. That's what makes human beings so adaptable, as one man can conceive what another man can not.
Our creator did not make us like the animals ... all howling the same tune to the moon. Instead, he blessed us with individuality, allowing us each to become something special in our own right. That's the human experience, and as it was given to us upon birth by a force we are yet to understand, I do believe we should accept the gift for what it is and allow humans to be humans ...
As I said before ... we all worship God ... just some of us see God by another name. If a man touches the ground before him and calls it dust ... then he surely has touched God, whether he cares to believe it or not. For God is the Universe and everything around us, and all that exists cares not whether we say wee believe in existence or not ... for we are surely here, which is proof enough it all exists.
To paraphrase a famous quote ... 'A tree need not be told its real to sprout leaves, nor need water be given a name to be wet. Everything around it exists for reasons we can never begin to comprehend ... so maybe its better to question our own state of existence then all that is around us.'
Versus in a book and endless arguments do not make everything around us real ... what makes it all real is the fact that it exists ... as we do ... and we all need to accept that before we can move on and grow as a species. Sentient life must continue to be sentient, lest it fall back to the order of the animals, where such thoughts could never be conceived.
Mark is a great guy. I've had a few disagreements with him myself, but I have to laugh because of the way he words his insights. I think he is very intelligent and brings a lot of sense with him. His phrase-ology could make a good book.
I also enjoy the other diverse opinions here as well.
We are all insecure to one degree or another, and those insecurities are bound to be ripped and torn at in such places as the religion forums. Therefore, the continuous heat, I believe. If we put on each other's shoes a little and walk a mile occasionally, we begin to understand each other, which doesn't always mean we have to agree. But disagreement becomes less insecurity based, and therefore, we feel a little more stable and less threatened in understanding our opponent.
It's tough work if you're afraid of it.
The values of an individual must not determine the affinity towards him. We can only try to convince the other on the aesthetics of our stands. But we must not get angry because of the strong resistance. And i dislike total approval for my opinion. Mark Knowles is a unique entity that is free of hypocracy. He is one of my best. What ever the reason for the request for this apology, i do not think mark knowles is angry.
mdawson that is very nice of you I give you props for doing tihs. You are a nice sweet man
***is still reading to see where one is allowed to apologize for someone else without the permission of the person giving the apology***
Why Don't you write some hubs Lion?
We are all having to apologise for your lack of commercial value.
If you don't want to be included, it's not mandatory. He was just making a very kind and grand gesture.
Whatever, don't you do that for god or god for you all the time.
***is still reading where unknown poster speaks for all believers without their permission.
The fact is we all gripped about Mark being so rude in the forum but little did we look in the mirror and realize that many of us attacked Mark professionally and personally!
I have endorsed many of his hubs and truly I have seen some incredible threads posted by him as well as he has kept many threads alive; which indeed gave more traffic for all involved!
It is people Like Mark Knowles and Dark Side that keeps Hub Pages known by the internet world!
I think that we owe them at least the credit of keeping us alive and helping make everyone of us in this community money and known for our work!
To paraphrase the "Great Agnostic" Clarence Darrow during the Scopes Monkey Trial, 'Man wishes to have the same right as a common sponge, he wishes to think."
Yes you are right we have the right to think but to go a little deeper all have the right to be able to express who they are FREELY without feeling they will be run off for their expression! I said at the begging of this thread that he really never attacked anyone individually I will stand to be corrected he has attacked those who have attacked him first!
Worship the Easter bunny if you wish, but if you try to convince me to do the same I will not yield easily. God, santa claus, whatever.
"Science has become Mark's God"
Then he should go and worship it.
See this is a personal attack on him! Why would you attack him like this? You claim to be a christian Christianity is being of love showing no seeds of hate or anger.
Let me ask you a question: Why are you so angry at him? Is it because Mark believes in a different belief system then you? Is this not his right as an American?
Wrong, you can honor a person without worshiping them. I'm only speaking for my self, of course.
Worship literally means "worth-ship". Giving worth to something. In its older sense in English of worthiness or respect (Anglo-Saxon,worthscripe)
I have no problems with someone who disagrees with me and we exchange our beliefs back and forth.
I do have a problem however with those who choose to not engage in a real debate or discussion and their only motive is to insult someone or their beliefs.
Open debate can be healthy and enjoyable even if comes to the point of being rather heated.
I was knocked around in a very personal manner for a period of time on here. I took a break and came back to start fresh. I have made a great many friends as a result from both sides.
I had public apologies and I also apologized. after my break and absence for a time I realized where I had gone wrong and so did they. No harm no foul if the apologies are sincere and genuine.
My apology from Mark was less than that in both sincerity and genuinely. But I took it in stride and actually got a kick out of it humor wise. Though I could have taken offense to it, I chose not to.
Personally I do not think I owe him such an apology since I did not say I wanted him to leave the forum, nor did I insult him personally in an attack.
I think everyone needs to take a chill pill and realize we all have different views and opinions and beliefs. from all sides and that is what makes this so interesting for all of us.
You have said it very well when you said that "WE ALL" need to take a chill pill! Many of us think that we have the right answers and go too far in trying to prove it! However in the long run we hurt ourselves rather than the one we are trying to prove our point too!
And a "real debate or discussion" is to copy and paste other peoples opinions from page rank 5 or 6 websites...... passing them off as your own? Before being found out for what you really are, which is a thief and a fake, and everybody subsequently seeing you for what you really are? Which is effectively biblepedia.
ryan, you do not know me and you do not care to get to me so stop spinning my name into something it isn't! I did not attack you in any way shape or form and yet you seem to get quite the kick out of attacking me every chance you get!
Ever ask yourself why that is?
Because I am a Christian? So what? Get over yourself!!!!
No not because you are a Christian, it is because you yourself have continously attacked people daily. I can name several people that are refusing to come to this forum because of you. I could not care less if this gets me banned again, you and your alter egos are ruining a previously enjoyable community.
Ok first of all I do not have alter egos on here! You lie!
Second, I am not the cause of that people are supposed to be grown ups and can make up their own minds!
I feel the same, and I am tired of having to click out of forums just because of one or two people who annoy me to death.
Oh this is too much! The great spammer of hubpages claims to adhere to open debate.
Posting bible passage after bible passage without bothering to read or respond to other's posts is most certainly not open debate.
You are completely and totally "full of it."
"I see you have taken to making statements that are outright lies now tth2009. which rather makes the hypocrisy of your user name and ridiculous belief system glaringly obvious.
Thank you for making my point. Your BS religion is done and your sky fairy does not exist. Too bad huh? lololololol"
Every time I attempted to debate Mark instead of debate I received many variations of the above statement, I was called a liar and when I asked him to show me where I lied he went silent. Proving he knew I was right. I did not receive an apology. I have forgiven Mark and I leave him to his fate. He has a religion and he defends it daily while insulting my God. I called him out for the evolutionary atheist fundamentalist he is for that I give no apology.
2 Corinthians 4;6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
'The religion forum has to apologize to Mark.'
I don't think so. Not all the religion forum. Why should I apologise ? I never attacked him
And I don't think Mark is seeking massive apologises. That's foolish and he's not a fool
I hate being put in the same bag with others Religion forum is a lot of people, some really great.
And MK is part of it too
I hate people classifying the religion forum as some sort of exclusive club. Whats more, I get unbelievably irritated when somebody says "if you dont like it, dont post on the religious forum".
Guess what, Atomswifey, I DONT post on the religious forum. I have never clicked on it. I only read the front page of this forum..... which includes posts from all categorys. There isnt even such thing as the religious forum. Its a sub category.
I doubt that Mark wants a public apology, I am sure that he would sooner see the religious forum deleted. As for us 'all' owing Mark an apology, hardly...... many of us share almost his exact same opinions on the subject of religion and a few of us share his complete disdain at what the HubPages forum has become.
Welcome back Mark.... I will offer anybody odds of 10/9 that Mark Knowles will be banned again within 14 days..... and odds of 5/3 that I will be banned again within 28 days.
You religionists just try NOT to attack others, judge others and convert others, and we shall be fine... If you (religionists) are all so adamant about defending your beliefs, gather yourselves and start your own website and you're free to preach all day long. Hubpages is not your pulpit.
There are lots of religion forums all over the web. Where you would feel more confortable. Or maybe you believers have a mental issue and like to be beatten ?
here here!!... and ryan has a point too. I don't go into sub forums either... and it annoys me when I click on forums and all they are about is "god blah blah blah and 25 bible verses to prove my point" I don't know why Christians think debate is the best way to win over "non-believers", my TRUE Christian friends all have stories about how LOVE brought them to god.
first of all most of us believers do not consider ourselves to be "religionists".
second, this website is for all writers who wish to express themselves and that includes believers! The forums offer an avenue with these topics and sub-topics so that one can choose which topics to take part in! You look at the question posed and then decide whether to engage in it or not! We do not force anything on anyone!!
You all preach in your own way as well and use this as your pulpit against anything or anyone that is Godly. Think about it.
why do you have so much animosity towards people you do not even know?!
You are passionate about your disbelief and thats fine. But why spout so much conflict about subject matter you know little to nothing about or even care to know about against people you do not know or even care to know about?
Actually this website is a platform for revenue generating (mostly original) online content. It has nothing whatsoever to do with expression, it is a commercial operation. I cant see any adverts in the forum; the website itself gets absolutely nothing out of your habitual breach of the 8th commandment.
It is a beautiful fall crisp day and I just wanted to say blessed be to you all.
You know what? you are not even worth this argument!
I am not going to respond to it any longer!
I know who I am and I am not the one who is causing controversy. I state my beliefs as others do. Because I am passionate about them as they are!
Someone cannot take it, can't handle having a respectful discussion? Too bad. Grow up.
I went to check out the site where one of atomwifey's hubs was previously published and got all sorts of virus popups. I don't know if you stole it or wrote it there previously or if someone else stole it but the site it comes from is bad... I had to close my browser to get out of it.
what the heck are you talking about?!!!
I have not published any hub on any other site!!!!
so the "previously published" is crap!!!!
haha....it's a hot mess!
well i think the only person who might owe Mark Knowles an apology is atomswifey but things seem to be ok between them at least he is ignoring her. a whole forum owes one person an apology?
i don't think so.
besides, he appears to be someone who has no qualms about speaking his mind, i.e. he is a big boy and can take care of himself.
(waves to Lynne Chandler - that was a sweet post. it is HOT here...kill me. kill me now...)
Why do I owe Mark an apology????
What did I do to him or anyone on here??????!!!
I did not even quote scripture to mark!!
We had a debate on evolution vs. creation
well you enraged him, and still do it to others, judging by some of these posts. and here i am trying to be nice to you and you're all postal.
"Hon....Hon Grab the gun...quick hon... Something is Mooo Mooo Mooo Moosing around here again!" "Did you leave your Cake Tin outside again?"
You are a vicious thing. Why dont you just fuck off? The day that Uninvited Writer, one of the most well liked hubbers on here, is accussed of Slander by a complete non entity like you is that day that I regret signing up to hubpages. This is a sad fucking day. You are continuosly driving away the most well respected and well liked members of this community. Why the hell the hubpages owners are allowing their business to be potentially be torn apart by nasty little shits like you I do not know.Accusing somebody of Slander? Accusing Uninvited Writer of Slander? That really is a new low.
Why dont you report this, come on people report this:-"Atomswifey, the sooner you die and book your one way flight to hell the better. Fuck you".
Looks like somebody should have taken those odds of 5/3. See you all after my ban if its not a lifetime one.
You should know. By the way slander is spoken; libel is printed.
Well, I copied and pasted a passage and it popped up. It's possible someone stole it from you. I was not accusing you necessarily. I am not a liar.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=%22I+have … =firefox-a
I went to that myself and someone stole my hub !!!! I do not appreciate the accusation but I do appreciate you letting me know this about whoever did this!
I am on page one of google and mine is not tainted with any virus or any such thing.
you really should police your hubs..stuff gets stolen all the time and in this case made you look bad, which was unfortunate. use Copyscape or similar good plagiarism checker.
Convenient that one hey? I am looking forward to the 1st October, when I can copyscape your work.
You have consistantly and continuosly plagiarised. You do it every day on this forum.
You cannot even admit that you have plagiarised on here. Like I have said...... see you in hell!
i dont understand why people who disrupt the forums but do it in a "nice" way run amok and others are banned. to me Ryan is a quality hubber and it doesn't make sense to put him in time-out, regardless of rules....everybody loses it sometimes. she is enough to make Ghandi have a meltdown.
you are not a liar. I respect you for finding the truth about everything.
And since this forum is about apologizing for people other than yourself, I apologize for the person who told you that you were slanderous.
Ryan, your opinions are respectable and it is sad that you will get continually banned because you react to someone... we need your brain here!
Well I will try and use my brain, when it works properly, on my hubs..... so I guess that I will just have input from there. Getting banned from the forum will be a *cough* god send for me. It infuriates me, I spend more time arguing with people (especially this one) than writing.... Mark Knowles has the same problem. I do enjoy answering peoples queries, getting involved in the business side of hubbing, but there is very rarely any of that to talk about now. Newbies to this website are scared away from the forum as soon as they get here, when they see the word 'God' in half of the forum threads. I would sincerely love to continue talking about hubs, keywords, seo, adsense.... etc etc..... but this forum just isnt about that anymore.
I understand! It is hard to find any OTHER topics when every topic in the front page of the forum section seems to be about religion!
If there was a way to keep religion threads off of the front page, then it would be a lot more enticing for new members. Atomswifey can continue to talk about religion, Mark Knowles can visit if he so wishes, and everybody else can talk about making money and writing. I feel that I must emphasise that I do not have anything against religion, but there are a variety of interests (and cultures, and indeed belief systems) that are very unrepresented on the front page.
If I was a 20 year old Muslim male, who wanted somewhere to display my poetry online; with the chance of monetising that poetry....... I suspect that I would find these threads incredibly intimidating and unwelcoming. I would be coming here to write poetry, to talk about writing, and to talk with established members about how best to attract traffic and make money. My religion would not need to come into that, would it?
But it is !! there are a lot of forums where you can post from nonsesne to interesting topics. I understand that relig. forum is addictive anyway
Tantrum, for me there is only ONE forum. That is the front page. I never visit the sub categories, and neither will any new hubbers.... they will click on Forums and be presented with 400 post long arguments that stay around for days. They can ALL be traced back to Politics and Religion. Those two subjects have nothing whatsoever to do with writing and publishing a hub.
that's your problem then. The forum is not only the front page !! That's lazyness !
Is it really laziness? Or is it a willingness to read about any subject in moderation?
You can read any subject you want going to the specific forum
Yes, and I can read exactly the same posts on the front page?
A front page is a front page. doesn't have all the content, lazy ryan !
Something's wrong today ?? Where's your humour ??
I dont know.... it has been replaced by anger and frustration. I had a lot to drink last night, and I mean A LOT! I was the life and soul of the party last night, now it is somebody elses turn! A great wedding reception though...... really great, the best I have been to.
I think we are all grwon ups and can hold a fight. but it seems hubpages thinks the contrary. Sofrom now on ,every time someone 'offends' us we have to report. I don't like it that way
I wouldn't report something just because it offended me, I would report a personal attack but I haven't seen any in here really. Accusations are one thing, attacks are another in my opinion.
I think that HP staff realy need to explain what a personal attack truly is so those individuals that claim truly understand if they have been personaly attacked
Well....with all due respect to your goodness, the moment we let another entity or power define all the whys and wherefores, we are censured. It's better for us to figure out who it feels to be personally attacked and just not do it. Self censure is far better than imposed censure.
But let me conclude by saying I think you've done a grand thing by starting this thread. I little self evaluation goes a long way.
At least now with the subforums people who are not interested in a certain religion can stay out of it. I do wish it did not show up on the front page and in hubtivity though.
I read many of the forums, but refrain from posting a comment for the very reason. I just wanted to give my two cents on this because the negative responses are not limited to just the religion forums. However, the new rule of 'reporting' someone because you feel offended, and having to go to 'time out' is a little like twarting freedom of speech to me.
It's Not the Type of Forum thread as much as it is the Damage that is caused by Damn Rampant Moose crashing through the conversations!
"Why do I owe Mark an apology????
What did I do to him or anyone on here??????!!!"
Why did this one stick it's nose into this thread if the above is a question she asks herself?
Lost The Plot.... You are LTP AW... Think before you open your...
Just an idea here, but if you knew that apologizing would create a much better atmosphere for you and the people involved, even thought you KNEW in your heart you were not wrong, would you consider apologizing?
Case in point: My son, early 20's took STRONG exception to me in a conversation and spent nearly 6 month in no contact. As a parent, I did nothing wrong. In fact, what I did and said probably helped him avoid extremely negative consequences. However, I suddenly realized a week after the incident that the cost of apologizing was simply putting my ego away and doing it. It meant that he got to be right, but in the end, I stated my case and he was free to choose anyway.
So I got on the phone and left him a message. I apologized most sincerely. I told him I loved him and that I hoped he would be in touch soon. I repeated that twice more. I gave up, and was heartbroken. On my birthday, he showed up unannounced to a dinner that was hosted for me. I wept openly and he hugged me. He told me that my apology made him think for a long time and he realized that despite any disagreements he knew that I loved him, no matter what.
I learned a valuable lesson. Being right at all costs is a terrible price to pay. Doing good is a far better solution. Doing good was allowing my son, after I had made my definitive statement, to explore what it means to be an autonomous adult, and make his own decisions, while I respected those and loved him.
An apology may not be deserved, but it if will bring good, then it's a matter of putting one's ego away and allowing goodness to happen.
That is my experience.
Here is an example of Atomswifey trying to discredit MDawson what she fails to realize is that MDawson has a church and is a minister so he is a man of God amazing for her claim of being Godly she should see the difference.
Thank You AEvans this is truly what a community is one that supports one another not one that personally attacks each other! maybe Atomswifey should read the knew policy about personal attacks in the hub pages forum! Slandering is a form of a personal attack!
You are welcome!! You are a man of God and she needs to take lessons, she is a babe in Christ and she is all over the page which normally happens when you are new into the word. You have to be strong to lead and that is something she has to work on. She should read the policy but I believe based on what she is doing she has not.
Well, whatever the intent of this topic, I hope Mark comes back and starts posting again. Maybe this time more people will realize his remarkable humor, even if they don't agree with him.
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