Can A Rational Individual Believe In God?

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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4

God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

Is this silly bible god bipolar? He can't control his emotions?
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Cursed is he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother.
- Deuteronomy 27:22

And Abraham said... She is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
- Genesis 20:11,12
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cosetteposted 15 years ago
GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Abel is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Surely Die, Did Adam not die after eating to fruit? Sin brings about death.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger
forever.
- Jeremiah 3:12

Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever.
- Jeremiah 17:4
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
- James 1:13

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt
Abraham.
- Genesis 22:1
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is all powerful
  Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
  
  God is not all powerful
  Judg 1:19
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This is kinda fun. Now I see why the bible believers use scripture quotes so often. They don't require individual thought. Individual thought would mess up the faith.
  
  How you doing Earnest?
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quoting mining the bible only proves my point just to let you know.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Never heard of it. I will take a look, thanks!
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you ASKED for those contradictions, remember?
  
  and when people give them, you say they are "quote mining"?
  
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Context in key, your basically lying
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Explain how quoting is lying. These are not her words.
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Brian is killing me with his joke!(context)
  
  Brian is killing me.(out of context)
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  She isn't hacking off phrases to distort the meaning. She is directly quoting.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think you need to consider the definition of the word context, as opposed to paraphrasing.
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Pam, i hate to say this but you exhibit the same traits as many of your fellow believers that i have seen over and over again: arrogance, smug self-righteousness and belittling of others who dare to ask questions or even challenge your beliefs. i restricted my comments to your comments - not YOU - and yet you singlehandedly accused me (and my child) of being immoral because we don't share your belief, and now you call me a liar on top of it.
  
  i'm not a Christian but if this exchange between us was being read by someone who didn't know either of us, they would assume you are not the "loving Christian" in this exchange.
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did I ever say you were immortal I simply stated you have no basis for such morals Please don't put words in mouth unless you think it's okay that I do it to you.
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  omg haha!!!!
  
  oh boy
  
  yeah sure Pam whatever you say
  
  haha!!!!
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's easier to laugh it off, huh cos.
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  my goodness
  
  you certainly are good at filling in the blanks to suit your purposes
  
  i laughed because it was genuinely humorous!
  
  easier?
  
  nope.
  
  i'm used to adversity, having had to deal with it from a very young age and for much of my pre-adult life.
  
  smug much?
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The only being smug, here is you. In order to say there is no God, you must claim absolute knowledge I could never be so arrogant.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you're so arrogant as to say non believers are empty and meaningless and don't have morals !! pleassseee !!
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I say you have no basis for morals. If you do have basis please share.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ahem.
  Emotional connection. Empathy. Common sense.
  I'm irritating myself by repeating it, you must be climbing the walls with it.
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ahem! How can you trust such immaterial things? Empathy what if I have none, How can common sense evolve? and whose Emotional connection, Empathy, Common sense is right. Mine, yours, Ted Bundy's. Why or Why Not.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ted Bundy did not have any.
  Ask the question again, we can do another circle.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have the same basis as every human being. I know what's moral or not. I don't need a God to tell me . But if you don't understand that, how I could share ?
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know? What standard do you use?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Can't you determine that on your own?
  
  You need guidance.
  
  That's not good!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What standard ? Humanity .
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You see, that's where you're going off in the wrong direction.
  
  What standard do you use?
  
  What standard? Humanity.
  
  NO! You use your own self-guidance system in your head and your heart to determine what is right and what is wrong.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  and that's humanity. Aren't we humans ?
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  yup.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wyanjen, I have been trying to make coffee that looks like your avatar all morning!
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It is Tasty and Good.
  The second cup is never quite as good as that very first piping hot mug, is it?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The first is nectar of the gods.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm gonna go brew me up some fresh nectar right now.
  Later gators
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Humanity means entire Human race.
  
  I was talking in an individual's notation. Every Human can determine what is right or wrong....how they rationalize that perspective is only seeing when scruitnized by others, can it be told whether or not, it is right or wrong.
  
  But, it comes down you or the individual to make that decision.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Individuals are human, so humanity is the standard
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then, I wish more people took responsibility for their actions. If that is the case.
  
  Because, in today's society--WOW! that's saying something.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  the opposite is humanity as well. All is humanity for us. Nothing more.
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Whose humanity, how can you know whose is right.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You don't give up, do you ?
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why not? I know where my basis for moralitycome from? You're just looking to be insulted.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What morality? Your source contradicts even your gods morality!
  for I am merciful, saith the Lord and I will not keep anger
  forever.
  - Jeremiah 3:12
  Or...
  
  Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever.
  - Jeremiah 17:4
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  YOUR own individual conscience tells you what is right and what is wrong?
  
  Or haven't you been paying attention?
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There why do we have laws anywhere if it based on each individual?
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry but I cannot understand this sentence...can you rewrite it?
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Spiderpam: this is not a sarcastic question:
  If you give full credit for your own humanity to god, don't you ever feel like you are selling your own self short? Shouldn't you get some of the credit for your own intelligence?
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who can know you better than your Creator if you have kids that should make more sense. If you have parents ask them. My mind is great shape I can stump non-believers with one question, and only Jesus is the answer that's something they don't know.
  
  Luke 10:27 "He answered, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind. And you must love your neighbor as yourself."
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I've got some cool neighbors no doubt.
  
  I lost my daughter. Does that mean I'm not allowed to make sense of it?
  
  See, my problem is that I am trying to understand you, but all you are giving back to me is rhetoric and bible quotes. I'm not asking what your creator thinks, I'm asking what you think.
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I lost my sister and never knew my father, he was a bad man, but not having a father lead me in depts too dark to venture to.
  After 24 years of going to church I still had nothing. So I asked Why do I not feel I like other Christians? Then I asked for God to enter my life and then everything changed. Peace at last! I was a liar a, thief, had premarital sex, you name it, but if you'd asked me "Do you think I'm a good person?" I would say yes, but I would know the in my heart that was a lie. But even in my sin Jesus save me from me and hell. I'm not perfect, but I do my best to follow His will and obey His Word, I've lost friend and family because of my commitment to Christ, I take it as a badge of honor, because look at what Jesus lost in order for me to be saved. Even when I stumble He's there. Repent and come to Jesus and live. You'll never understand it until you too have a relationship with Jesus Christ. It's Amazing.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I came back you answer to your post, I thought you had dropped out.
  
  Switch over to my perspective for a minute spiderpam: You were struggling. But when your life changed, it was because of something you found inside yourself. I can appreciate that faith is the tool you used, but god didn't change your life. You did it yourself.
  Maybe because you won't take your own credit, you won't give any of us our credit.
  Thanks for answering my personal question.
  Peace
  
  Later gators (again)
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you could've, I would've done 10 years earlier, I needed God, I hope one day you'll see you need Him too. Have a great night.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK see, we were having a nice moment there... But,
  There won't be a day when I'll see that I need him.
  I get by just fine.
  
  Take care just the same spiderpam
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26

And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19

Are iron chariots bible gods kryptonite?
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
But God didn't write the Bible...men did...
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Men under the power of the Holy Spirit, and when dead sea scrolls were found they match the bible 99.9%minus tranlation error color=colour) How do you explain 40 writers over 1400-1600 years 66 books adding up perfectly come on.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They don't. Simple.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
All the contradictions in the bible have a purpose. they're symbols for the bipolarity of this creation.. Of course it's deeper than that. I'm not going to teach Kabbalah in this forum. Not talking of madonnas kabbalah by the way
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Those that seek me early shall find me.
- Proverbs 8:17

Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall
seek me early, but shall not find me.
- Proverbs 1:28

Why is this silly bible god playing hide n seek?

Ah I get it, this is where interpretation comes in. He's there when something good happens but is punishing us for sin when bad things happen. I thought jesus already died for our sins, so why do bad things still happen? I believe!
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
Hey everyone....let's look directly at religion and see if we can get to the truth.

This is precisely what "religious/spiritual" leaders perpetuate:

The business, known as "religion", this encompasses ALL RELIGIONS!: Has 3 major doctrines,

One doctrine is to give up personal desire, which is eventually leads to a state of no motivation. Through experience, the student learns his doctrine, if fully implemented, would literally result in his death. Thus, it is impossible to achieve and is therefore, in reality, anti-life.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her death.
- II Samuel 6:23

The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul.
- II Samuel 21:8

Oops
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
The second doctrine is to be selfless and at the same time develop spiritual character. This is also impossible to achieve. The reasons why will be explained in a moment.(I'm trying to keep the posts small)

The third doctrine is to do the will of GOD. This also acts against an individual's long-term nature because it means one will always have an authority figure over oneself. Over the years, as the religious student lives through real-life experiences and the experience of honestly, wholeheartedly trying to live by those three doctrines, he learns how false each doctrine is. A person cannot achieve what the religious teachings tell one to achieve and be true to his nature as an independent, thinking human.

It takes along time to break through those illusions. Each new insight is a shcok to one's intelligence. By acting selfless your emotions begin to rebel. Eventually your emotions rebel against someone else(GOD) making important decisions for you. Your nature is to grow and develop in order to become your own authority. And the state of having no desire is worse than death. Your emotions eventually rebel against all three of those doctrines. Through personal experience, each doctrine proves to be destructive to an individual's nature and psychological health.
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
For all we know Ted Bundy was raised a Christian. Believing in God has never stopped people from committing crimes such as murder.

Most people usually do the right thing, regardless of if they believe in God or not. It's only a vast minority who are bad or evil. I believe it is something innate in humans.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. Morality is human condition not a religious condition.
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where does it come from?
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Emotional connection. Empathy. Common sense.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It comes from being human. The ancient Greek philosophers had it figured out long before Christianity took hold.
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As always, you are the voice of sanity.
  
  Just bookmarking so that I can find cosette's headbutting bunny - always useful
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love it when the bunny appears
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  haha...just keep this link and you can use it whenever you want:
  
  http://i34.tinypic.com/14cvhxv.gif
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  thanks pal!
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@spiderpam
why do you have basis for you morals and we dont ? aren't you immoral saying that?Degrading other human beings ?
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
Is it time for me to bring this out again?

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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Timely I think.
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
This is going nowhere, you obviously don't understand human nature or are unwilling to.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's always like this . For me it's a break in between writing or working
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where does humane nature from God, humans or nature? I know, but without God it's just a mater of opinion. Who can really say mine is wrong, to say that implies you know what right. If so how did you reach that point and after that how can you trust it?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If and when you ever reach enlightenment, you can answer that question.
  
  However, with that said- enlightenment is the word chosen for my view, because it opened my eyes to the truth, not just about "GOD", but about Life, in general.
  
  Your statement: Who can really say mine is wrong, to say that implies you know what right.
  
  If so how did you reach that point? Enlightenment is rational and sanity, brought into reality. You reach this point on your own. You cannot be forced into it, but you have to maintain "anything is possible" attitude, to see beyond religion.
  
  After that how can you trust in it? Well, that's because you accept life for what it is...your human consciousness tells you are alive. Be happy and go about your day. Tomorrow may never come. You also believe in your own "self-responsibility" to ensure that you perserve life, including your own, at all costs.
  
  You are HUMAN act like one. Take FULL Self-Responsiblity for your life, instead of being weighed down by self-indulged ancient text, which wasn't properly interpreted then, never mind now.
  
  The interpretation is completely skewed in religion. It's meant to keep you under control, just like nature guided mankind when first evolved.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Handy tool Cosette, thank you.

I am off to put the rabbit to use on another thread!
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Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago
Cheers, cosette - copied and pasted.

Looks like you are all having fun in here
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  yeah but i gots to go now...cheers back you guys!
  
  this one is good too:
  
  "Wake uPppp....."
  
  http://i38.tinypic.com/2di2kc9.gif
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lol...
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  That's what I do to Kostas the Goat Herder every night. That man has the intellect of a rock.
  
  UW - That is one of my favourite paintings
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
And believers say the bible isn't separatist. 1,488 post's say different.
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
Excuse me while I...

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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
Are you real ?
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
But you don't "love your neighbor as yourself", this thread is proof.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I luv's ya UV as myself
  
  now my nieghbour upstairs is really pushing the boundaries ..grrr
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I've got one of those...
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  Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why cant we put them in all the same building
  She was cleaning and running the vacumn at midnight, what the ?.....
  
  Um I love her , but hate her noise
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mine moves furniture around after midnight and stomps around like a mastadon. Okay...I love her...
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Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago
Wanting to die is your choice....not a good one , but yours to make.

Why did you need to ask anyones permission ?

(btw, Im so glad you made the right choice ,not to end it all ) ..sincerely I am
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because at the time, I was embroiled in religion. Which requires too much.
  
  Yes, your right, I didn't need anyone's permission.
  
  But, I didn't ask for permission.
  
  I said I prayed to GOD and asked him to end my life. Because I didn't have the courage.
  
  And, thanks.
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quietnessandtrustposted 15 years ago
I would like to present something that might allow both believer and non to put the brakes on and take a hard look at something closer perhaps ?
Knowing that NOT ALL believe in God or respect Him, this is good to know and tends to stop the arguments about how non-believers will account for their life.

There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning-for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all who do good-for the Jew first and also for the Gentile.
For God does not show favoritism.
God will punish the Gentiles when they sin, even though they never had God's written law. And he will punish the Jews when they sin, for they do have the law.
For it is not merely knowing the law that brings God's approval. Those who obey the law will be declared right in God's sight.
Even when Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, instinctively follow what the law says, they show that in their hearts they know right from wrong.
They demonstrate that God's law is written within them, for their own consciences either accuse them or tell them they are doing what is right.
The day will surely come when God, will judge everyone's secret life.

~Paul~
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have to believe first. I don't. So how something unreal will judge my soul ?
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I was trying to show that the conscience has a roll to play even with the unbelieving.
  
  The conscience is the standard it would seem.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But it hasn't. It's not going to change my life. I don't believe. Give me a proof it's so as you say
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot prove to you God.
  I think everyone KNOWS they have a CONSCIENCE ?
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So ?
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Por que "So?"
  
  So you have one and if you go against it, you do not feel right I think.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah! So ?
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If He wasn't real you wouldn't be agruing here not all.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm arguing ,because I'm a joker. For me life is fun. This forum as well. And No, I don't believe in God
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  blah blah
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Blah = Ignorance
  
  Blah is bliss!
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You would know.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Flip that around. God's law (written by humans) instinctively follows the basic human morals that we all share.
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah and when you do not your conscience condemns you I think.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It only weighs on you if you actually think you did something wrong.
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Some people do ignore their conscience so often that it becomes "seared"
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Truth be told, yes you could live a long life knowing and living with the fact that you did something wrong.
  
  How much damage is done to your overall lifetime? How knows.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I guess that would depend on how bad actions was, would depend on the severity.
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Personally I really do not care to have any unreconciled business on my plate.
  And damage??....I do not want or need any damage.
  I like to keep my own conscience pure, clean and un~defiled.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah ! I use Mr. Muscle for that !
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Músculos Sr.
  
  ¿Quién es?
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  don't you have that for cleaning. you have it in u.k.
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No lo sé porque yo vivo en La U.S.A.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
Nicely said.

Well, that is going to change everyone's mind
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Probably NOT
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're right !
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am right only on Friday's
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  HEY!!!...YOUR SCORE IS HIGHER THAN MINE...I AM CALLING MADDY !!!
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's because I'm a good boy !
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@ quietness
And you think conscience is God ?
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There you go again.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I always go again !
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  quietnessandtrustposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I believe your conscience is "instilled" in you and you cannot run from it.
  It does speak to you, but you can ignore it.
  Eventually you will face it.
  Perhaps it is His voice.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No ! It is mine.
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  spiderpamposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your is subjective and thus cannot be trusted, my views cancels yours out.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  this is too funny, even for me!
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wow!
  
  Sounds like a little school girl.
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pioneer_writer5posted 15 years ago
What does clothing matter? The question is whether or not one believes in God's existence and why.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
I posted a few hubs on humankind.

And, I still say,

If your belief is based on something that is a lie, how can your belief be justified?

It cannot be.

No under any stretch of the imagination, can it be worth something.

Liars cannot be trusted. And, if your belief is based on a lie, then you are no better than the people who told you the lie.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
c u later. I have to eat. I'm human
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ediggityposted 15 years ago
It takes a bear .45 seconds to fall to the earth. What is the most probable color of the bear?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This relevant to the topic...How?
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you are a rational, and logical person, I'm sure you can answer that.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
And, on that note, let's hope "GOD" protects her while she sleeps....the "devil" might come to take her soul....WOOHOOO!

Not!

Let's keep things real.
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  wyanjenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The devil's coming over? woo hoooo
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
Richard,

(Great to see you here spiderpam!)

I just wanted to add one post of my own, to say that you "created" a super-good thread here. Look at all of the comments the thread has brought to this forum!

Any new thread on Faith in God or religious beliefs of any kind brings out the atheists. It's as if they impatiently await any new thread on this subject-area (Religion and Beliefs), so they can launch their attacks. While they believe this somehow causes us grief or to agonize, we know better don’t we!?

You see with all of the very, degraded posting they do (not degrading to us but degrading to them) it only serves to show what low intelligence it takes to be on the attack. There are those atheists who debate with respect and I'm not referring to them but to the geniuses who offer the attacks as "debate".

These are the ones who use the brilliant "LOL" reply following a post in which someone replies to someone asking why they believe what they do or another of the brilliant posts that either blaspheme God or make light of the devil, such as "whoo hoo here comes the devil to get you" etc.... The comments do not even reach the level of grade school mentality but apparently they like that idea and being perceived in that way! (You attack-posters have succeeded in that!)

This is a huge victory for faith-beliefs because it shows the contrast between comments that come from people who see a deeper meaning to life and from those to whom the saying "nothing is sacred" applies-to. You will in-fact find in the thread titled "Evolutionism the Greatest Story Ever Told" comments such as "I think life is a joke" from one of the attackers. What a perfect example!

I absolutely love the fact that the persecution comes because not only does it further substantiate the reality of the beliefs that are attacked, it also furthers the message of belief. In their minds it does the opposite but not so!

In my case for example, I create new Hubs every time the attacks come because it brings the inspiration to me, for doing so. When the attacks came in the "Evolutionism the Greatest Story Ever Told" for example, I wrote a new Hub in regard to recognition of purpose and meaning in life. I'm also going to create new Hubs from my comments at that thread!

I love it!

From 'MY' Christian point of view, these scriptures also come to mind>>

"And indeed every one who is determined to live a godly life as a follower of Christ Jesus will be persecuted." (2-Tim 3:12 WEY)

"...If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you..." (Jesus - John 15.20 WEY)

"Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." (Jesus - Luke 17:1-2 KJV)

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." (Jesus - Mat 5:11-12)

---While I'm pointing out scriptures and quotes from Jesus, here's one that might be of interest to those who are entering the blasphemy realm. I advise you who resort to the overboard attacks to take it seriously.--->

“Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.” (Jesus - Mark 3:28-30 NKJV)

{Jesus warned of this because the same haters of God and Faith that called Jesus a psychotic (in terms of their day) also went as far as to say he was the devil or had a devil in him. He in fact had the Holy Spirit in him.}

Here's another clincher for those of you who don't yet fully understand who Jesus and the Bible claims he was (and my personal belief):

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD. ... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1 and 14 KJV)

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." (I-Tim 3:16 KJV)
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOL
  Here is how it goes, and I love you guys for this stuff:
  
  1. I beleeb in jeebus
  2. if any one does not beleeb in jeebus they will attack me
  3. I will tell every one that I beleeb in jeebus and I am speeking the word a god and I will pound it down and attack any science that sounds like it might disagree
  4. They disagree
  5. See- I told you they would attack me for beleebing in jeebus
  6. This prove jeebus is true.
  7. Prophecy fulfilled even........
  
  I especially like the use of the word "persecution" when applied to "sick and tired of hearing the same "I beleeb in jeebus" over and over again" Nice.
  
  Well done., This is proof right there. You can take it to the bank.......
  
  Sheesh.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Jim.
  
  Part of the appeal of this thread, I think, is that my post is a Rorschach Test. The responses to it have almost universally said more about the responder than they have about what I've written. Initially, this concerned me; then I largely sat back and watched as each person revealed parts of his or her soul, his or her beliefs, his or her pain and fear and hatred.
  
  I went from thinking maybe it was a very bad idea that I posted on this board to thinking -- maybe people needed a place wher, for a few days, they could confess, spill their guts, get their tension out. Like Fight Club.
  
  But I wonder how many have gone back and looked at what they actually said and how they chose to behave and wondered, "Why?" How many have said, "What does this say about me?"
  
  Agree with me or don't, partially agree or partially disagree -- or even decide to take no position -- what was the motive for the response? Why keep coming back to this thread and go through the same motions again and again, saying the same things, more and more brazenly exhibiting hatred (or maybe arrogance or discomfort) sometimes?
  
  How many people will now re-read what tey've written here and ask themselves exactly how rational they were in responding to my story and to my arguments?
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awareposted 15 years ago
is it bad that i wish this thread would go away?
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Kind of like Frankenstein's monster. Which makes me kind of like Dr. Frankenstein.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The creators of the ridiculous bible are the Dr. Frankensteins.
  
  A proven in their separatist bible as shown on the thread.
  
  Maybe the new question should be: Is Bible God Dr. Frankenstein?
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  Marc Salyerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you afraid that this monster will outlive you as that one did it's creator?
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Heck, it was around before me and will continue on after, to be accurate. It's more like I'm Dr. Frankenstein's movie assistant, Igor. Maybe the Marty Feldman one from "Young Frankenstein."
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Marty was the greatest of them all I reckon!
  
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  MY HERO!
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL!
  
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  Marc Salyerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That would make all of us "Abby Normal"
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ME,for sure!
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
Evolution Guy,

Have you seen this quote directly from the autobiography of your hero Charles Darwin of whom you place as your avatar-pic, rather than yourself?>>>

"Another source of conviction in the existence of God, connected with the reason and not with the feelings, impresses me as having much more weight. This follows from the extreme difficulty or rather impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity of looking far backwards and far into futurity, as the result of blind chance or necessity. When thus reflecting I feel compelled to look to a First Cause having an intelligent mind in some degree analogous to that of man; and I deserve to be called a Theist."

Did you know that he confirms this to have been written, FOLLOWING his publication of Origin of the Species?>>>

(This statement of his followed directly behind that one) "This conclusion was strong in my mind about the time, as far as I can remember, when I wrote the Origin of Species...

(and this one followed a few sentences later) "I cannot pretend to throw the least light on such abstruse problems. The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."

NOTE: He did not call himself an atheist but refers to himself as a "theist" (belief in at least one diety) and an "agnostic". You can't claim a broad definition when he himself, is describing his agnosticism and giving definition to it.

Also keep in mind that he was already decided on evolutionary theory as fact. These quotes from him are in regard to his belief-system in regard to a supreme being whom he believes began the processes but that he remained open as to whom that God might be.

(The "jeebus" you pay homage-to I'm not familiar with but I suppose if you're happy with it, more power to you.)
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And what exactly does what some one else believes have to do with my choices?
  
  Sure Charles Darwin was under pressure - I understand that. Fortunately we have moved on and I can make fun of your ridiculous attacks on evolution with impunity.
  
  Now we have a much better understanding of evolution and it is clear there was no god involved.
  
  Oh dear. That means your beliefs are garbage. What a shame..
  
  Should I list a few believers who turned atheist to help you change your mind?
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
Don't ask me what you should do. You are supposedly someone with a strong stance. I thought you were making your own decisions and not swayed by others?

As far as Christian beliefs being garbage, 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. I realize what others believe doesn't matter to you but I just thought I'd mention that anyway.

Additionally, even with all of the "proposed evidence", believers in the theory of evolution remain a minority in the U.S.

No amount of attack-remarks can change that fact but do keep trying.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
You know-

The problem with talking about religious beliefs is, those who believe automatically defend their beliefs, without listening.

Secondly, before you decide to start quoting scripture to people. It might be helpful if you understood the text for the time in which it was written.

A lot of what Jesus Christ taught to his followers, wasn't religion- it was consciousness.

And, as you people seem to believe in Jesus Christ, or whomever, you see a your own personal "GOD", it is important that you understand the time in which he lived.

If you take out the context of the times he lived, then you only help perpetuate the hoax of religion and you do a great disserve your own faith.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your position was born in the Enlightenment. Which says nothing as to its merits or demerits as a position, but it is itself a commentary about the times that produced your own position.
  
  And most assuredly, it was the product of a specific age and attitude.
  
  We have learned a few things since the 16- and 1700s about the nature and scope of reason. We have learned a few things about what science can legitimately claim and what is an illigitimate claim for it. And I'm not even of the party that dismisses evolutionary theory in biology.
  
  You said:
  
  Maybe a lot of what religion actually is -- is "consciousness."
  
  I am hearing the word "religion" thrown around by the conservative believers and the unbelievers alike as if "religion" were about the niftiest thing since the plague -- a bad thing by definition.
  
  Religion means "to bind again," "re-ligios." It means to take something broken and bind it back together -- or to offer a part a means to re-binding itself to the whole from whence it came.
  
  Religion is a means to do this with God. That's all. There are good and bad ways to do this, but, in itself, religion is a fine thing, as fine a thing as any other human activity.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good to hear from you Richard.Haven`t heard much from you lately.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. I've been watching. Posted a couple of times a couple of days ago, but, as usual, no meaningful answers.
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
Great points and observations Richard.

I also hope that the ones who started the attack-posts which always have a degrading effect, will look back through and notice from whom these type posts originated. You can make the very same points made by some of them and just as powerfully, without the contest of wits they resort-to.

I was actually accused of being on the attack at another thread but this was a role-reversal attempt because I absolutely do not resort to attack posts and never have.

I have at times defended when they were directed at me and I have expressed my views passionately and firmly at times but this is far from being an attack-mode or one that disrespects others as some members seem to make a practice of. It is also the reason I have involved myself very little in these forums.

I have 256 Hubs here and only about 42 forum posts and what I have described is the reason for it. Every time an intelligent discussion in the "RELIGION AND BELIEFS" forum is started, these members always see it as an opportunity to express hatred toward religion.

Even those of like-beliefs or faiths cannot discuss among their selves without the attack-mode members entering-in due to their apparent serious need for attention.

Thanks again for the thread, I do believe some positive outcomes may have occured.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are off on this one. You aren't as smart as you think you are. Keep believing. The hatred is stemmed from your grouped belief systems. Grouped belief systems contradict having an individual mind. How many times do I have to say this? PS: I don't hate you. You hate yourself. Discover that you have an individual mind before you die.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
That is because religion has to go away.

It is destroying humankind existence.

You obscure reality with conjecture as established fact.

Not to mention, religion distorts the truth about your life, your faith and forces you to give up all common sense reasoning, all because you've learned everything out of context.

It's not good, if you're unwilling to take control of your life, as you were meant to. The fact- that fact alone isn't healthy.

Those who you claim to post attacks? An attack is only an attack when perceived as an attack. That being said, since you can not ever fight from an offensive stand point, because of your faith(religion), you're left to be defensive.

Thus, all words against your belief, are determined to be an attack. So, why bother discussing or debating it.

You do it to reinforce your own belief in your faith, because you feel it's the right thing to do. Protect "GOD".

Do you seriously think that an almighty powerful entity, such as your god, needs your help? Let's get real.

You may see non-believers and feel the need to impose your beliefs- in some, this has been proven on these kinds of threads, and probably won't stop.

How ever, you cannot sit there and tell anyone your faith(religious view), and not expect a response.

How ever, on another note- are you sure you know what you know?
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
Pssssst, hey marinealways24 and cagsil, how about this for lack of recognition - This is a "RELIGION AND BELIEFS<<<<forum. Try to let that register on your mind if possible.

You attempted the role-reversal once again.

Just take a deep breath and relax, you'll be okay. Try to settle down if you can because the Christians who far outnumber the unbelievers are not going away. Aguishing over that fact will just keep you stressed and lashing out as you just did.

Maybe you'll find peace of mind eventually. In the mean time, stop worrying about the fact that we who believe and find happiness and peace in it, are enjoying corresponding about it.

The we (or I) "hate" ourselves is a huge leap but might actually be intriguing to understand how you are seeing that. If in reality, seeing we who believe in God discuss our beliefs is an engulfed jealousy on your part, seek some psychiatric care and that might help.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You just proved my point. Excellent Job. Develop self awareness.
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
There you go marinealways24... see, you can find a positive when you really try! Good for you.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't done anything. You are still an ignorant sheep that has no self awarness to understand you contradict being born an individual with an individual mind. If you are happy living as a contradiction, more power to you.
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
marinealways24,

You use great leaps in attempt to bring more credence to your posts but it actually takes credibility away from your posts, so you might consider working on that as well.

In case this isn't sinking in just as the name/purpose of this "Religion and Beliefs" forum has yet to sink in, I'm referring to your "we hate ourselves" and "we have no identity" and "we're lost sheep" type statements.

They first of all don't make sense and secondly, you are attempting to qualify your attack-posts by pretending to have an all-encompassing insight into all of us. Where would you get that, do you claim psychic powers or something to that effect?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They don't make sense? Your belief is grouped as a pack of sheep. A pack of sheep with no individual mind. Make sense now?
  
  I have read your book of belief and analyzed the believer and non believer mind. It doesn't take psychic powers, only logic. You wouldn't understand logic because your logic consists of faith and interpretation, contradictions to logic.
  
  Heres an assumption, you believe evolution is the devil.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Marine,
  
  I'm even getting a little stressed about the 'way' you're going about.
  
  Even Jesus Christ had love and mercy for those who don't understand, he did so because he was human and he knew many would following religious nonsense.
  
  Why do you think Jesus Christ was executed/murdered? Because HE absolutely refused to preach religion.
  
  And for those of you who care to react, instead of listening only, feel free.
  
  The only reason any of Jesus Christ's scriptures are in a BIBLE or any other books, is to perpetuate the hoax of religious leaders.
  
  And, you know what- I think you might consider a different tact. Because the one your using now, isn't getting you anywhere.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Love and Mercy? Are you serious? Believe or go to hell is love and mercy? He died for our sins? Then why do innocents still die everyday with no logical explanation at times?
  
  Jesus was a separatist who taught a grouped belief system to obtain followers. He requested followers, not individuals. He taught a grouped belief, not how to form individual belief. Jesus is religion.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was a separatist who taught consciousness, not a grouped belief system, even you are taking his words out of context.
  
  JESUS is not religion. Religion existed before Jesus was ever born.
  
  He requests that you recognize your consciousness and your ability for human thought, as an individual.
  
  He had to teach according to the time he lived in, where hundreds, if not millions of people, were still guided by nature and/or religious/spiritual leaders and/or oracles.
  
  He was forced to use the primitive language of the time to explain his teachings, so people could breakthrough to independent free will thought.
  
  After Jesus Christ was executed, religion captured his teachings, but purposely skewed the text, by not revealing why? or what he truly did preach(not in a religious way) to others.
  
  Does that help?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I like the thought you put in. You speak as if you know this as absolute? It would be more believable if you didn't state it as absolute. So, you do or don't believe he walked on water and arose from the dead?
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How can you make the claim that Jesus promoted free will independent thinking.You`re talking in circles.Jesus always taught others to follow Him and nothing else.He said many times,"FOLLOW ME","FOLLOW ME AND I WILL MAKE YOU FISHERS OF MEN". He said"I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE AND NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER,BUT BY ME".He also claimed to be God,He said "I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE", HE told His disciples,'WHY SAY YE,SHOW US THE FATHER,IF YE HAVE SEEN ME,YE HAVE SEEN THE FATHER". And hundreds of people testified to seeing him alive after the resurrection.How Answer Ye These Questions?
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Rick -- notice that Cagsil studiously avoided my observation a page ago that what he/she is doing is opposed to simple history. It is an anti-historical or a-historical abstraction of Jesus' teachings and life that bears little resemblance to what the historical Jesus taught and the tradition he came from was -- regardless of whether one believes in the supernatural aspects of the Gospels or whether one believes Jesus was the Messiah.
  
  Somewhere in the 3000 + pages of research Cagsil did on this subject, I think history got left out.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I noticed that and was about to comment but you got there first.WE`RE AWAITING YOUR REPLY PLEASE>
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  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If he taught a group belief, he could not be a separatist.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure?
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He was a separatist only because he wanted to keep humans separate from religious teachings.
  
  Otherwise, he was in to one grouped belief- Human Consciousness.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was a religious Jew. A very religious and observant Jew. He was known as a rabbi in his own time, and much of what he preached had been preached by the prphets and sages before him -- he wasn't making up something entirely new. Read the Talmud -- you will find many of Jesus' own teachings already there.
  
  Jesus never stopped being a Jew. He was not a Christian. On the cross, he prayed the Psalms, by some accounts in scripture, and he gave the example of how to live and die appropriately, according to the spirit and letter of the Torah.
  
  The notion one can "de-mystify" Jesus and separate his social teachings from his own professed religion and activities as a rabbi is non-historical, anti-historical and itself takes no cognizance of Jesus' own times and the culture he emerged from.
  
  The Enlightenment philosophers made a strong attempt to de-couple the historical Jesus from his moral teachings -- keeping Christian and Jewish moral teachings while attempting to strip out any reference to the religious origins of the teachings as being "superstitious" and "unnecessary."
  
  The history of the ramifications of Enlightenment philosophy in ethics come down to us in the form of the controversies, largely unnecessary, between deontological ethics and utilitarian ethics -- and the reason why many philosophers have returned to what is known as virtue ethics, or ethics such as the followers of Aristotle or The Stoics professed. . . a form of rational ethics not incompatible with much of Judeo-Christian teachings.
  
  Your approach to Jesus, here, while understandable, has already been pursued to its ultimate lengths in philosophy, and is either recognized to have failed, or to have come up short. And as a purely historical approach, it is wrong-headed for all the reasons I've given above about Jesus being Jewish and a traditional rabbi.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're mistake.
  
  His insight is not in YOU, it's in LIFE, which is lead by human consciousness.
  
  You know, the thing that tell you're alive.
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
Ahhh, again the attempted "leap to bring credence to an attack-post". No, I don't believe evolution is the devil because it doesn't exist in the sense of the propsed theory. If it did exist, I still would not recognize it as an entity but as an "occurrence".

Thanks for reading my book, I have about 30 titles published at Amazon (true), so maybe it was one of mine on health subjects.

No, you still don't make sense but thanks for trying!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The bible isn't your book of belief? Now you are flat out lying.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you aren't the genius you believe you are. I don't care how many books you have written. It obviously hasn't done you any improvement. Write a book on self awareness. Obviously the field you need to research. Maybe psycology as well to understand how your childish mind is driven by emotions from your belief book.
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
marinealways24,

Thanks for your confidence in me to write a book on self-awareness and while I do have self-awareness and possibly even more than you do, it's not a book-writing interest for me.

With your all-encompassing understanding of it and being able to judge how much of it others have from a distance and from simply corresponding on a forum, you should be the one to write the book.

I wish you the best with it!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That actually isn't a bad idea. Maybe you do have the ability for an individual mind, as long as you have "faith". Maybe you should write another best seller on Amazon, "Sheep Mind to Individual Mind".
  
  I wish you the best with it!
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
Okay cagsil and marinealways24...good, go with that.

I have to relax my self-awareness for a while now and get some sleep.

Best Wishes!
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
You seem to miss my point because your blood is boiling.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all. I'm not the one with emotional stake in Jesus. His separatist teachings of favoritism through belief are clearly shown on the thread. Destroy individual ideas to protect faith.
  
  Ah, my mistake. So, you are saying Jesus, was simply added for the Love portion of the bible? I think i'm on the same track with you now.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
No!

Jesus Christ was not a GOD? or even had GOD-like abilities.

He was a human male.

You see, what I learned from research and why I can talk, as if it is fact, is because it is fact. It's been thoroughly investigated, evaluated and in religion's case, tested it.

My investigation led me to finding out about religious/spiritual leaders of the past and what they did to conceal their hoax.

Many assume "religion" and "faith" go together. They don't.

Religion is a corrupt business that offers up a specific product "GOD", as the answer for Life. You live how they want, think how they think and you're abused if go against their teachings.

The word "faith" is to believe in something that is not real. As defined by man. You can "faith" in someone that you know is real, but you never have true faith in something that is not real, because your own human consciousness knows deep-at-it's-core- you are not to be guided by anything other than real facts.

It cannot be dismissed, but it can be oppressed, by the strength of your faith.

Sooner or later- people will realize, there is a different path for humankind, but right now- religion is clouding their judgement.

The simple and pure facts, of people misunderstanding of Jesus Christ's teachings is misunderstanding when he lived and humankind evolution at that time.

And, yes- Jesus Christ is in religion text, but he wasn't a teacher of religion, he was a teacher of consciousness who had to be careful. He didn't want to get caught teaching anything other than religion.

Religion came before Jesus Christ. All religion did was take his teachings, purpose change the context and spread the word.

Btw, religion was the reason for Jesus Christ's execution. He refused to preach about a false idol, just as he said.
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1. 60
  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So, Jesus never claimed to be God?
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  71
  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did he?
  
  No one really knows except for the 'church'?
  
  His scriptures are not available to the public, but I will have to dive in to my research and see, if he ever verbally made that claim himself.
  
  All other scripture portrayed by any apostles is useless because of their early breakthrough to consciousness. Even, years after his execution, which proved he wasn't GOD, his apostles were still uneducated and spoke of Jesus as a God, due to the fact- he brought them free will thought.
  
  Did Jesus Christ rise from the dead?
  
  Are you serious?
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  61
  Valerie Fposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And please cite your sources.
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  71
  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Please cite your sources?
  
  Sources for what? and on what?
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
Your research, of course.
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1. 71
  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What would you like to know? Exactly.
  
  Because, I've got about 3000+ compiled pages, so that's why I ask.
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2. 61
  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have a feeling you are neither going to get 3000 + pages of research or 3 coherent sentences of rationale.
  
  Maybe they're available. I doubt it. But people on these forums, by and large, seem immune to backing up one word with any evidence, theory, or even a reasonable guess linked to anything as common and disdainful as history, philosophy, real science as discussed by real scientists, real theology as discussed by real theologians. A book they themselves did not author. Or a book, period. Illiteracy as a chosen path or cultural illiteracy seems well-accepted here . . . and this on a site where writing and reading are the main intentions of the site.
  
  Not everyone here is like this, of course, but the vast majority, or the loudest minority, read this way to me.
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  0
  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You pulled the thoughts right out of my head.
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Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago
I guess their position wasn`t worth defending.Reinforcements showed up over here and they dropped the flag and ran.
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1. 61
  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Guess you may be right. That, or everyone went to the can at the same time. Or there's something great on TV. Or someone went to do some reading (which would thrill me to the point of apoplexy).
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  60
  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Apoplexy? Cool word.
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JimLowposted 15 years ago
Here I go again, probably opening yet another can of worms but I’ve seen some great points being made after the slew of attacks settled down a bit, especially by Richard and Rick.

This of course won’t go over well but I graduated in theological studies – Liberty University in 1996 (last time I mentioned that an attack-poster claimed the University was of the “moonie religion”). I was a Christian for 15 years before entering the studies. I’m not Baptist in fact I don’t claim a denomination but do claim Christianity. I’ve never viewed it as a “religion” - I see it as a Faith-relationship with God. I’ve mentioned this in a number of Hubs going back two years. The word religion in-fact is only mentioned twice in the New Testament and if I remember correctly, not at all in the Old Testament. The mentions do not equate Christian Faith with religion in fact one of the scriptures (book of James) refers to “vain religion” and points out that if people want to claim to be religious, they can demonstrate a good-works type practice by taking care of the needs of widows and orphans.

I agree with cagsil in regard to the fact that Jesus was actually persecuted by the religious people of his time (time of his physical ministry), namely the Pharisees and Sadducees among others. He was relentlessly attacked just as what occurs today from people who absolutely detest Christianity and that Jesus stated repeatedly would happen.

I know for a fact that bible-scripture is highly substantiated as being accurately handed down from original texts. Yes, there were problems in regard to translation into English because the language was new but despite this, the translation from Hebrew and Greek (Septuagint), was very, very close to the original. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls in the 1940s also further substantiated this.

One of my elective subjects with my theology studies was archeology as related to the Bible and I also know for a fact that finds have repeatedly substantiated both the New Testament and Old Testament events. When some of the posts here have stated that Jesus may not have actually existed, this goes beyond incredible as far as an attempt to degrade facts and history because the life of Jesus Christ is a factual as any other well-known, well-recognized historical event you can cite. The very dating system for most of the world has recognition of Christ in it (this is year 2009 AD) and when congress of the USA passes a new law, they recognize it as having been passed for example - “In the Year of Our Lord 2009 AD…” etc… It is an absolute joke when the attempt to claim Christ was just an insignificant religious sect starter of the distant past. His impact on the world is tremendously significant, so much so, that his followers were willing to die for their relationship with him. The apostle Peter for example was crucified upside down and even the Apostle Paul mentions having been stoned, offered to lions for sport, being beaten repeatedly etc… All of this just for a religious or philosophical experience? I don’ think so.

Let me also add that I’ve seen the endless rambling type threads before, when posters who absolutely despise Christian Faith and other Faiths, go into as many confused directions as they can possibly invent. Many times it is by design, while other times it’s because they really are as confused as they come across to be.

There is a practice I call hyper-philosophy, in which people scrutinize things to death, literally. It’s similar the saying “that depends on what the definition of the word is, is”. You can literally bypass obvious meanings and scrutinize everything to the point that they loose meaning for you. It really comes under the definition of insanity, which is often the accusation thrown at Christians.

I see absolute and obvious meaning in Christianity. I honestly do believe Jesus, who was God in-person and who pre-existed his arrival as a man on earth (lots and lots of scriptural backing for this), really did shed his blood on a cross and die for the sins of humanity, which drew a death-penalty from God. If someone doubts that evil exists, they should ask themselves what they would classify taking an innocent life as, such as one of their family members.

As far as God “killing his children”, if you look at all of the instances when a judgment from God caused lives to end, the society had become so vile, that they were beyond reaching. The people of the days of Noah for example, were involved in human sacrifice of their own children. According to what the scriptures state, God was grieved and angered at the same time because he literally was hindered from being able to send salvation to these people and he gave them more than 100 years to change before allowing the flood to occur. In the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, angels came to take Lot’s family to safety before God destroyed the cities and the men who lived in them, came to Lot’s home, wanting to sexually rape the angels (hence the term “sodomy” was coined).

There is a great deal of purposeful twisting of scriptures, so that only partial aspects of them are conveyed and as mentioned previously, it is purposeful because there are people who still today, absolutely detest the thought of a God who not only created them but who wants them to allow his guidance in their lives. Not control and not a taking away of a person’s identity or individuality but a guidance that takes them to higher levels of fellowship/relationship with their creator. Man however, according to scripture many times, prefers to be his own God, despite the problems that he/she sees men unguided by God causing in the world.

Here’s another big debate often thrown-in: Why do bad things happen to people, including innocent children? If you look at the Genesis account, man was given dominion on earth. He purposely rebelled against God’s guidance (like what is still occurring today) and the evil that followed was his direct responsibility. God was under covenant (contract) with man and he could not intervene and fix the problem until he had opportunity to do so. Jesus was the end-result (fulfillment) of ongoing covenants made with a succession of different people (including Noah), that led up to Christ’s arrival.

Blood sacrifices of animals seemed cruel but were reminders of how destructive sin is, to the lives of people. They were literally a show of mercy because God allowed judgment for man's destructive sin to be substituted, just as it was substituted by the death of Christ. God doesn’t warn about sin because he doesn’t want people to enjoy it (scripture even states there’s pleasure in sin – for a season) but because he’s trying to keep men from destroying their selves (How’s war for an example?).

I really didn’t intend on giving a dissertation but I honestly believe the people who are attacking Christians and other Faith beliefs having to do with men trying to gain relationship with God know far-less about our beliefs that they think they do. I hope this has shed even a small glimmer of understanding – it’s the best I can do.
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1. 60
  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  You wrote your "dissertation", yet failed to see the point of your belief which is to group belief for control. Keep studying.
  reply report

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