Can A Rational Individual Believe In God?

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philip carey 61posted 15 years ago
They can believe in their version of God. The first order of business is to define, specifically, what you mean by "God".
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did it, several times.
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Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago
Is God individual and absolute?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course not. But, thats not absolute. Is the bible meant to control followers ridding individualism? I am 99% sure, but i'm not absolute.
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sooner than laterposted 15 years ago
has anyone seen the lung capacity of even the largest of dino's?

extremely small. must have been more oxygen.
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Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago
A lot of people make claims that they can`t back up.There are many questions I can`t answer.But I have enough guts and common sense to say"I Don`t Know".All I know is I believe what I do based on lifes experiences with my faith in Christ.I`m not gonna come out flat and call another man an idiot because I might be the idiot here.I just trust in faith that what I hope in is the truth.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well - as long as you do not think I am a fool for not trusting in faith that what I hope is the truth - I have no issue with you.
  
  Personally I prefer "Que sera sera," and enjoy the day in the absolute certainty that this is true.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No Sir,By no means do I think you`re a fool,quite the opposite.Maybe to a man like you who thinks on a higher plain than the avarage joe,you want more concrete facts.I truly hope we all find our way because we sure deserve better than we have here.In reference to some people here is food for thought,'SOME PEOPLES MINDS ARE LIKE CONCRETE,THOROUGHLY MIXED UP AND PERMANENTLY SET."hehe.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It just seems plausible to me that God is real and I`d rather play it safe.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quite right. Fear is a powerful religious motivator.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So it all comes down to 'fear'
  Better play it safe ....
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@ evolution guy
It seems we're thinking the same at the same time
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  @ evolution guy & Tantrum... some would see a holy connection there
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  earthly would be the word
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Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago
YES, Truthfully,I believe in a possibility of a literal hell and if one really exists, I don`t want to go there.Do you ever wonder to yourself,"What If I am Wrong?"
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course. but then I ask myself - does it really make sense that there is a place for people to burn in all eternity?
  
  Nope. Especially when you have read some other religious books and investigated the term.
  
  And the other thing to bear in mind - Pascal's wager only applies to a nasty god. A god that needs to be worshiped. A god that requires belief. a god that says "only through jesus" or else. What are the chances that all the Christians who have been pushing this god are right? You know - the ones that think dinosaurs walked the earth with us and there was more oxygen back in the day so we lived to be 800 years old?
  
  Pretty slim.
  
  Quite honestly - I would rather burn in hell for all eternity than grovel to a pathetic god like that anyway.
  
  I am not afraid. Que sera sera.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well in our world today you can pretty much have your pick of whatever god suits your tastes. Do you not believe in any of them,and if not,would you tell briefly why not? Just curious,no disrespect intended.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Three reasons.
  
  1. I have personally met what I think most people call "god," and it is not a god.
  
  2. I do not believe any of the people who tell me I should believe what they are telling me because 99% of them are merely repeating what they have been told and exhibit absolutely none of the attributes I respect in a person.
  
  3. It just doesn't make any sense to me. And when I say this - I mean organized religion. I can see through all that to a desire to control . And the history books will bear me out. Even the "organized atheism" of the communists - is just another version - which gives honest to goodness "I don't believe in a god" atheists a bad name. And every time a religionist brings up the "atheist communists" I know I am dealing with "satan" which is also you and me.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In conversing with me,do I display any respectable attributes,surely at least honesty.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Would you elaborate on number 1 briefly?
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sure. If you choose to - you can connect to the rest of the universe in a very powerful way and become aware of how you are connected.
  
  If you can put your ego aside - you will see how big a part of it you are.
  
  At the same time comforting and frightening. But - it does not have a personalty and does not "need to be worshiped" and most certainly does not have an afterlife in hell planned for anyone.
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  The Ramblerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "Amen"... lol.
  I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm just learning about interconnectedness and attempting to figure it out in my own bumbling way. (Well, with alot of help from someone who knows a little bit more about these sorts of things than I do)
  I've been following this forum for a few days now. I decided to respond, based on the fact that this is the first comment that resonates with me on a deep level. Plus, it just seems to be a simpler kind of explanation, being not necessarily an explanation at all, which just leaves one to ponder their own path and find their OWN answers.
  KEY: Their own, not someone else's.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry to say:
  Many people rely on reasoning. Reason came when man rebelled against God.
  Sorry to say, by any man who got terminally sick his reasoning shot down. So it is many time useless. Nothing makes sense what is bad. I know what I am talking about.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The only reasoning and logic in your god book is that it contradicts an individual mind and requires faith to believe.
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  dentist83posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Reasoning is not rebellion against God. If God is the Source of Knowledge, then been an ignorant is been against God. Ignorant are rebelled against him.
  
  Science do not use a lot of faith, The scientific method is prove to be a reproducible way to generate knowledge, without the need of faith. Religion has show to be a reproducible way of corruption. See some history books. Science was base on faith when the church created science and kill people for saying that the earth was round when they knew by faith it was not round.
  Faith should be adapted to science. Or you still believe that earth is round. I mean, you can believe by faith.
  
  If God exist as I believe he do, he should judge those who had play to be God and lie about things, using the faith as an excuse.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Amazing how intelligent person can say it.
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  dentist83posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yea, that is why I stop believing in a Exclusive God which will save the christians, and condemn all others.
  
  Have you ever wonder: What if God follows any other religion that is not christianity. That would mean that you will still go to hell(and you did not really play safe). Why, because God only respond to a specific religion and you, even thought you have good intension, do good, praise him, give your life 100% to him... you still not follow the truth way. So you and me will still go to hell but you follow a strictly religious life and I just live my life doing good and loving others. I know this may sound insane to you, but is not different from what you believe. The only difference is the name of religion. You do believe that other people who do not follow christianity will go to hell. Well maybe things are all the way around.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No it does not sound insane. As I stated earlier there is the possibility I`m wrong.I may be a fool.But if I`m a fool it`s because I believed in Jesus.And yes,if he was a liar and a crook,then I`m in trouble.
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  dentist83posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nice to see a humble Christian, my friend Rick I like the attitude.
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  dentist83posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do not believe you are in trouble. I believe that you are worrying for something that you cant really tell for sure
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I believe we all are searching for God, for peace,for contentment.Life is so unfair for some and so good for others.We look to God,each to his own,friends and family.So many questions and so few answers.Really, I wish we were all wrong and all right at the same time.What do you think about the ball of wax?
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  dentist83posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ball of Wax? What's that my friend?
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, I just meant life in general.Your overall view of things.
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  dentist83posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you believe in Zeus? Why or why not?
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not as an actual person or deity.If my memory works properly,Wasn`t that a fable?
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Most of the known world believed He was the King of all The Gods.
  
  Unless you are saying Jesus is a fable?
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For lack of knowledge people perish. God did not plan anyone of us to go to hell. We are who choose it.
  To me hell is separation from God. It is state which there is plenty what you do not like and lack of what you like.
  God cannot take anyone without solution or resolving of sin. Otherwise heaven would change to hell. There are only two places available.
  
  Religion is bad to me. All of them, including Christian's. Religion was born in hell. It is man's opinion about God.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Reward and punishment to drive the followers to a 1 system belief. Your god book is a conspiracy.
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Scott.Lifeposted 15 years ago
Wow I can't believe this is still going on, here's a better question should a rational person even care if someone else believes in God?...and to play devil's advocate the word Theory as used in science has a different meaning then it's usage outside of that field. In a scientific application a theory is a proven scientific fact backed by evidence or data and generally accepted by the scientific community as a whole. And in this instance evolution is the system accepted by most of science and many faiths actually, a minority known as creationists promote a system based on the literal acceptance of the story of Genesis, but again most of the world's dominant faiths and religions have accepted the theory of evolution since the early 1900's.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong.
  If you are in university professor and you are not evolutionists you are out. The some do not care and pretending. Other are stronger and leave. Those who are quantum theory scientists there are more than 50% believers.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Once again WRONG, why because you say so, that's comforting....What exactly are you referring to as I never said anything about universities, professors or Quantum Theory
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You said that all scientists accepted evolution as fact. At lest sound like to me.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I never said such a thing I said it was accepted by a majority of those in science, which constitute alot more people then just those teaching in universities and colleges.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Answer this biblical favored believers, where is the common ground in your favored grouped belief? Favoritism = Ignorance. Are you saying your government god is ignorant for creating mind games to believe a favored belief? If your government god wanted 1 belief, he would have created us all as animals rather than throwing individual minds into the bunch. Your god is a conspiracy.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
Vladimir said:

Adaptation and evolution are two different matters.

Adaptation and evolution are 2 different matters linked together.
something can't evolve if it doesen't find an adaptation to the environment.
Evolution needs adaptation.
not only in humans and animals ,but in material things as well.
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  Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Tantrum is here
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is that good or bad ?
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  Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I guess we'll see as the night unfolds..you don't bother me...no one on here does
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody bothers me either, altough I love to throw my tunrums here and there
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  Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I just like to make broad declarations to keep the argument going until I get bored and go to sleep, let them figure it out I say!!
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Should the belief control the mind or should the mind control the belief?
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  Scott.Lifeposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think the mind should control all, and some would argue is all.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are definately not a biblical trained mind.
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  dentist83posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If the mind create a belief, and the belief controls the mind...well then this person have to see his doctor. I think physician have drugs for that. LOL
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You just defined a believer.
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The mind is malleable.
  
  It can pick and choose it's beliefs.
  
  The smart person (non believer) questions a belief before accepting it.
  
  The dumb person (believer) just accepts his belief without question.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, they have questions, when they can't answer, they use faith and interpretation over logic in dependency of belief. This is what the bible trained them to do.
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dentist83posted 15 years ago
evolution => change. When you adapt, some change(evolution) had taken place. Even thought people think in evolution as something specific to human evolution from another species, evolution is not that. Evolution is a broad topic. Evolution is a fact in the broad sence. It does not have to do with human evolution alone.

Do human come from an evolutionary process? Well that's another topic. But religious people have to start talking with the true definition and concepts and stop mixing them.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The biblical mind obviously doesn't understand evolution of the mind when their belief system contradicts evolution of the mind.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Answer me believers.

Your belief teaches that you are favored for what you believe.

Favoritism = Separatism

Prove this wrong with your faith and interpretation. You are part of a separatist belief system. You believe you preach love? You preach separatism. Welcome to self awareness.
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Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago
Hold all thoughts for a minute. I got a question? When I`m on the last page,last post and wait for another reply,nothing happens. I have to click back to first post,wait 3 seconds or so and click back to last post to get the next feed.Is that the way your stuff works or is something wrong on my end?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have prostate problems, my stuff doesn't work right either. Don't feel bad.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I was serious you knothead.Do you really have prostate trouble?
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Really, is my computer messed up?
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And I hope you took the knothead remark in friendship as I concider you my friend. My apology if you took it wrong.No ill intent. Just humor.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Humor is good.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  WELL, TELL ME ABOUT MY COMPUTER,IS IT MESSED UP?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  When I don't take medicine. I trust "faith" over medicine. jk, I simply don't like medicine. It contradicts my "individual" healing.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So how is this affliction affecting you physically?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Caffine = urgent pissing.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My congestive heart failure due to heart attack causes me to go pee every little bit.I take 9 medicines every morning and 6 every night. 4 of them are to keep water out of my lungs.I haven`t slept more than 3 hours straight in over 1and1/2 years due to going to the bathroom.Many,many,many nights I sleep sitting up in the living room recliner so I can get to the toilet quickly.Believe me,I have sympathy for you.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  9 medicines? You are stronger than me. I hope I would take them if I had to, I don't know if I would. lol Try smoking some bud.
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dentist83posted 15 years ago
Everytime I enter to hupages at the forum and see the same people talking makes me feel like I had know you since long ago. This is the hubpages family! LOL haha
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it is good as you become more familiar with people.You`re able to take off your armor and talk as equals without fear or intimidation.
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Colebabieposted 15 years ago
"(215): i got kicked out of Barnes and Nobles cuz i put all the bibles in the fiction section"
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's actually a good idea. Maybe some non believers will read them. Kudos.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  non believers don't rely on your bible conspiracy.
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You can read a book and not believe it. But I'm sure most would just see it, laugh, and move on.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lord if the rings is a better read, plus its consistent... I think if more "believers" actually read the bible ther'd be less believers
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's for sure. If anyone really understood the "bible" or "religon" they practice, they would sooner find themselves out of their belief.
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  sooner than laterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I always said if more people read the bible there would be more believers.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That would only work if you approach the bible with the necessary gullibility. If you simply read it you'd go "hu?"
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Life long indoctrination is needed here as well.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  it would help... amen bro
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ramen bro.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you are going to hell!
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  Colebabieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I personally didn't do it. But I found it funny. And I'm already going to hell according to Christian standards, so eh.
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Richard VanIngramposted 15 years ago
I have been following along with the discussion and noted several problems that need to be answered in order to truly have a civilized talk about these issues.

Problem #1: Faith. What is it? No, I am not talking solely about religious faith, but about what all instances in faith have in common, if anything. If the various uses of the word “faith” are ambiguous – they have no common meaning – then everyone is talking past one another by using the term.

But I don’t think we’re in that boat. To have faith is to trust the testimony of someone else. If we have blind faith, we give our trust carte blanche to a person without checking something about her credentials, her background, her character, her areas of expertise. We could, though, have a rational faith when we trust someone’s testimony who seems trustworthy, who has an appropriate background and character, or expertise, if the question is such that expertise comes into play.

I am not a physicist, so when I want to know things about physics, I read things by physicists – not fringe physicists, not people who announce themselves to be physicists, but people who are recognized by the scientific community to be practicing in the field with adequate education. When I repeat things I have read by physicists, I am not being a physicist – my speech is being informed by the writings of scientists whom I trust to be telling the truth in the best way they know . I am having faith in physicists and in physics – I do not have knowledge of physics.

Having faith in someone else is relying on someone else’s experience. That is all. This is the unfortunate state of being a human: We cannot, individually, have all possible human experiences and knowledge each, ourselves. We must rely on others and their specific knowledge, we must assume much we inherit from others.

A scientist, being a specialist (scientists do not generally know the specific details of what scientists outside their areas of specialization are doing, any more than any other educated layman), relies heavily on the testimony of other specialists in other areas to inform, both her scientific work and her private life as a human.

For example, theoretical physicists are usually not theoretical mathematicians. Ultimately, they rely on the work of mathematicians to create the tools with which they study their field. They have, in short, a faith in mathematics and mathematicians.

Science does rely on faith. Every human pursuit, including human life, does. The questions is not, “Does science involve faith,” but do scientists have faith in things that are worthy, believable, and useful, productive for their pursuits? And the answer is usually, “Yes.”

To proceed: There is nothing INHERENTLY irrational or foolish about having faith or beliefs – all human life, all human pursuits, EVEN SCIENCE rests on a foundation of assumptions and beliefs we do not, individually, bother to prove – because this would be impossible.

Are some beliefs foolish? Yes. Quite a few are – we should be skeptical in our approach to ideas offered to us and avoid gullibility. This is the first step in using the reason that is the hallmark of our peculiar form of living. But should we become, then, wholesale skeptics, doubting to the ultimate degree everything that can be doubted in the slightest? No. Because then one will doubt even the possibility of any sort of knowledge or reason – even reason can be doubted; even doubt can be doubted.

Our form of skepticism should be a moderate one – we begin facing all questions seriously the moment we do so with an open mind, not a mind bound and determined it knows all the answers, yea or nay, when it faces an issue. We should make an attempt to judge things as impartially as possible – ultimately, we will all fail in this, but it's an ideal better to pursue than the alternative, one more likely to improve human life than the alternatives.

Those who claim science is superior to religious faith, ON PRINCIPLE, simply because religious faith involves that nasty word faith, are wrong. They have already pre-judged the issue based on a misunderstanding of the nature of faith. There is such a thing as scientific faith, as I have already shown – scientists have faith in many non-scientific things for the foundations and methods of their studies – the least of which is not the belief that there is a world independent of the human mind to study in the first place, a belief no science alone can prove (philosophy does that).

There are many religious people who claim science is wrong because it talks of many things not mentioned in their scriptures, or they performs contortions of logic to make their scriptures contain scientific “truths” – that water is really dust, for example, or a day is a thousand or a billion or a zillion years, or that the oxygen levels 6000 years ago made people immune to snakes and gave them terrific life spans.

The fact is: The Bible is not a book of science. It doesn’t talk about existence in scientific terms – those terms and those methods were unknown to the writers. What the Bible talks about is the world in spiritual/mystical terms, in metaphors, in allegories, in symbols. Very, very little of it is historical, very little of it is literal or simply literal. Read the Talmud or the Midrash or study Kabbalah (not the Madonna pop-kabbalah, but the real stuff) if you want some insight into exactly how complex and subtle the Hebrew Tanakh is – what some Christians call the “Old” Testament. And then you begin to get an insight into the same subtleties the Christian faith inherited from Judaism, but for the most part, the lay-believer has completely forgotten.

The point: That “Old” Testament, with all its seeming contradictions and strangeness has kept a vibrant and creative, unique people alive for 4000 years, a people who wrestle with great ethical issues and spiritual matters and who are not to be taken lightly – and, yet, have produced some of the greatest scientific and philosophical minds of which humanity has to boast, and it is a people who progress daily in the understanding of Who God Is. This is a people who understand The Book and The Law is not a matter of science, it is a matter of religion, it is a matter of faith in the deep spiritual experiences of prophets and sages collected over centuries of discourse – a discourse which, much of the time, is quite rational and quite sensitive to meaning.

To even talk of the Bible, old or new, without some familiarity with things such as this, and without knowing the full views of the major traditional Christian theologians and philosophers, without knowing the tradition of discourse that goes into the interpretation of what the Bible means and what it does not – well, this means that one is placing faith in someone or something to tell one about this tradition.

If one does believe and one has no first-hand background in hermeneutics and history and philosophy of religion, one is either making one’s beliefs up as one goes, employing the concepts embedded in everyday language (meaning, one’s faith is in popular opinion) or one is resting one’s faith on a religious tradition or church which may or may not be aware of the traditions of interpretation and argumentation that have gone into theological and ethical debates for millennia.

If one does not believe, and one has no first-hand background in the study of hermeneutics, history, and philosophy of religion, one largely derives one’s beliefs against religion from the same sources as the average believer. One places one’s faith in some outside source to tell one what religion is, or one has personal prejudices born of an uncritical use of common language and opinions. Perhaps one thinks televangelists are the best representatives of Christianity, or one thinks the Bible is to be read as a newspaper, and that is how the writers intended it to be read and discussed.

Which is sad. And leads to much sound and fury, signifying our friend: nothing.

Faith is a complex and complicated issue. One can make it as simple and simplistic as one wishes, but the fact is, human life involves beliefs at all levels, even in science, even in religion – and the question is not, “Is belief foolish?” but “Which beliefs are not foolish, and why?” And for those who wish to attack or just question the religious believer, one will have to find out exactly what the best version of the beliefs of believing people are.

I am a believing person. Unashamedly. But I am also a rational person, inasmuch as I tend, more often than not, to attempt to use reason to investigate reality and pose questions and seek for answers. Up to the point reason suggests no clear path or where I encounter people from areas if reality I am not competent or able to explore (such as physicists, or the sages who wrote the Bible and their followers who have had an unbroken discourse about it for 4000 years) – in those cases, I rely somewhat on faith in those who seem trustworthy, on those whose theories and claims do not run roughshod over my own experience and things I know to be true in my own small area of expertise and, in fact, extend my understanding in ways I could not individually.

As I said at the beginning of all this: There is no need to reinvent the wheel in every generation. That is not a path to progress, only pride and enforced stagnation.

We need one another to learn and grow, and we have to listen before rejecting, and then study – to be sure what we are rejecting has no value whatsoever unless it contradicts something plainly true. And very little here is “plainly true,” folks.

2. Science and reason cannot, in principle, know everything, even if they can know some things.

Science cannot answer all possible questions; neither can reason. In principle, even in an area where the human mind has such absolute knowledge as mathematics, there are limits to knowledge. Look up Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem and come back and explain to me how Godel was wrong . . . if you can. I’ll nominate you for a Nobel Prize. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del … s_theorems

Moreover, in physics, the queen of sciences, the most rigorous form of science, are two gems you’ll have to deal with as well that show that the nature of physical reality is such that it is beyond the ability of reason to entirely grasp: Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle
and Quantum Indeterminacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_indeterminacy
or feel free to look them each up in a better encyclopedia.

3. Theory

As for theory vs. fact, I made a post about this earlier in the discussion. I’ll repost it if anyone cares to re-read it. It boils down to this: Theories, scientific and otherwise, explain facts; they are not, themselves, factual. They are creative, valuable, but, nevertheless, PRODUCTS of the human mind.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'll add as an addendum to #2, while I'm talkative: Science is not the only form of knowledge, and it is not the standard of knowledge. Science is the standard of knowledge for purely **scientific** questions (questions about quantifiable reality) -- but humans ask many meaningful questions that are not scientific (involving qualities, for example) and have created many ways to rationally and creatively answer those question.
  
  History is not an exact science, yet there are historical reason and historical questions, for example. Art and literature are not sciences, yet they explore, with their own logics, the depths of human experience and what it is to be human. The humanities in general are not scientific, but have rational methods and rational means of evaluation, each within its field. Philosophy is not a science, yet it examines the essential structure of all reality, not just measurable reality, the foundations of ethics and application, aesthetics, etc., and examines the means by which we know, what it means to know, and it defines the very principles, methods, and assumptions underlying science and mathematics.
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Evolution Guyposted 15 years ago
There is a rather large difference between religious faith and scientific "faith."

Scientific "faith," is based on millions of pieces of evidence and millions of theories and postulations based on reason and logic. I personally can go and test some of the factual basis for this "faith."

Religious faith is based on some one else's religious faith and nothing else. So - how about we stop trying to make the case that scientists rely on faith and this faith is in some way related to religious faith?

In other words - how about we drop the semantics and stick to "faith" as it applies to a belief in a deity?

Faith = belief in something unprovable, untestable that has no measurable evidence other than previous faith by other people.

Is that definition of faith acceptable?
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Prove to us matter actually exists.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  By the way, I do not accept that "Measurability" is the sole or even best standard against which to prove or discuss some forms of reality.
  
  I'd say justice exists. Why don't you pop around the corner and show us 4 pints of it?
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL - run away!! Hide in some word games!!
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What you fail to deliver in your scientific faith is all the evidence to fill all the millions and millions of "holes" in your theories.
  Science has huge gaps they cannot fill to explain away God.
  In all their endeavors to do so they have yet to do that, why?
  If all this evidence you say points to randomness and naturally occurring without God, then where is the support for your faith in that? What evidence can you show which proves that?
  All those millions and millions pieces of evidence surely one of them could disprove the existence of God then right? Look at it as a whole, have they dis-proven the existence of God?
  
  If God is a figment of the imagination as in Santa Clause then why have not these astoundingly great and enlightened scientists been able to refute His existence?
  And you will say " go ahead then and say there is a God because of this". But we do not say that. Only that the odds are stacked not in your favor of your belief the He does not and too as they are greatly stacked in our favor that He does.
  
  See you point out over and over again about all this scientific evidence and claim we Christians ignore it. But we do not. It is in this creation as a whole that solidifies our faith in God. Can you not see that? Surely you who claim to be such an authority on the subject can see that.
  
  And this is where we see all those "gaps" filled in, In Gods Word. Not one single piece in any of their scientific journals can produce evidence to announce there is no god. Yet God clearly showed this evidence in Genesis. And you say, "well, thats just a fairy tale." Really?
  
  Explain then how it is that Moses who wrote Genesis knew all those thousands of years ago how the order was to be in order to sustain life on this planet?
  If you read Genesis 1 it clearly has an order to how God put it all together.
  First there was light. (perhaps a version of a big bang?) Light suddenly and abruptly coming to be in all the darkness of space.
  and on and on with each of the life sustaining elements coming to be prior to the introduction of life on this planet and man.
  
  How could Moses have known these things? The exact order I mean? In other words if he had just "guessed" it all when writing it there would be a chance of him getting the order of these things wrong or miscalculated as they we were not known things in his time. And surely then had he had known these things and science would have adopted them long before they actually did. And this will really get ya, THEY DID. Sure the basics were known I'm sure. (Water, air, food and sun) But if you read you will see the EXACT order in which it all came to be. Each followed a determined path for creation. And this is all something science took thousands of years to catch up on and know.
  
  We look at all the order and how much of a hair line difference it would take for life on this planet to NOT be sustainable for life and conclude beyond any doubt that this did not happen by chance or a matter of randomness.
  We look at ones like you who ignore the mathematical probabilities of it all just "happening" and the thousands of models that have been created which also show the probability of it happening randomly and its number of 0% and think you are the ones being illogical about it all.
  
  The Bible clearly fills in the gaps that man cannot and has not nor ever will.
  And the following is something that you cannot stand: you assert so confidently what you believe as truth and logic though neither can disprove anything we as believers do in fact believe and know or assert to be truth. And this eats away at you because you cannot "prove" us wrong. You can only immaturely insult us when we point out that very obvious fact.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh dear.
  
  Are you alright?
  
  Sorry your ridiculous beliefs have been proven wrong.
  
  Is life even worth living now?
  
  Are you sure that "round" is the same as a oblate spheroid?
  
  Perhaps if you repeated your ridiculous beliefs over and over and over you would make people realize how rational you are?
  
  Sorry you do not understand evolution. That will not change the facts.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They have? lol
  Show me the proof Mark
  show me where my beliefs have been proven wrong.
  
  And look, as far as the oblate spheroid is concerned: I did not say that round is the same exact thing.
  I said that the earth is so obviously not in the shape of an MM it could not be construe as being oblate.
  Even Wiki which you love to cite says it is slightly that way not in whole that way. And it would take the earth coming to a complete stop to make that so as the weight and pressure would cause this to happen.
  In addition, at the time the Bible was written we did not have the climate changes we have now, which have affected and altered somewhat very slightly even, the shape of the earth so as to flatten it so slightly this is though that it is not even visible to the eye.
  Visibly it does not appear in ANY way to be oblate spheroid.
  
  You did not answer my questions Mark
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your fear defines you.
  
  Your inability to see that the facts are there en front of your face defines you.
  
  The fact that you will lie desperately and laugh at what other people say if it does not fit your ridiculous beliefs defines you.
  
  The earth is not round. Your proof that the bible is right because it calls the earth round has been proven wrong.
  
  As for the earth being round then and now changing shape........ You do realize that is "evolution" you are talking about - you know - adaptation to change.
  
  Lying is a sin. I thought you people burned for all eternity for sinning? Or do you get a free pass because jebus loves you?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Mark you're fooling no one, you gotta questions to answer for from your religion of time and death.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do not fear.
  
  In respect to everything else you have said here, you still have not answered my questions.
  And too, where have I lied about anything?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is this it? Do you write a book to make yourself look intelligent? You failed.
  
  I don't have to prove my ideas correct. You do it for me. You believers hate any individual ideas that challenge your faith. This is why grouped belief was created, to rid individuals. Grouped belief = Control. You are controlled. You believers proved it on the thread by showing how you try to disrupt any individual thought that challenges your belief.
  
  You say your belief book of your limited mind defines evolution? They couldn't go into more detail when they have pages of temple construction? Ignorance.
  
  I seen that you didn't argue that you are in a separatist belief. Pick and choose prophet.
  
  I never said I rule out creation you assumptive prophet, I said the bible is not divine. The bible is your government god. Keep the faith.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Another question to challenge your faith of bliss.
  
  You said in another thread that God spoke to you telling you to have faith and it saved your dying son.
  
  Is your son favored over other innocent children that die everyday because you have a christian belief and they don't? Ignorance. Ask youself questions when you discover you have a mind.
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I sought prayer in the case of my son and God chose that particular way to heal him.
  Other innocent children who die everyday go to be with Him, that is how He saves them, heals them, rescues them.
  
  Also, FYI: I was not walking the walk of faith back then either marine which was my point in the story as well!
  Ignorance is bliss isn't it Marine?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You would know. Why would god favor to answer you when he doesn't answer other christians? Are you the favored prophet?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God answers all the time, millions and millions of people have asserted this. You just choose to ignore it.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your biblical god is a government. Why does your government god require a separatist belief of wars? For his entertainment?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You speak about some God , but Im not sure how you get your defination.
  
  Just curious ,but what laws would you follow if not for laws taken from the Bible?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If your government god can use divine intervention to create the bible, why not punish the murders and rapist's? Why do we need jails? If he creates all, why did he create the murders and rapist's? So he didn't intervene free will? He intervened with the bible right?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He did not create the murderers and rapists. lol
  He created man. Man sins. Man kills, man rapes.
  We need jails and the like to keep order on this planet he designed for man to rule on.
  He put man in charge of it.
  Man has chosen to defy Him. Man has chosen the path he is on.
  
  God will judge all men!
  Both good and bad.
  
  But God loving even greater than the human mind can wrap around, loved us into a gift for salvation. This gift is greater the sins of man.
  This gift is Jesus.
  God himself in the human form taking on all the suffering this world puts out.
  
  This is the plain and simple truth and then I am going as I have things to do:
  
  We are only having this discussion at this time as a result of Gods mercy and grace!
  God has not changed, and He punished sin greatly as we read in the O.T.
  God reconciled Himself to man through Jesus. It is because of Him and Gods grace, His love for us that He has given man all these over 2000 years to repent and draw closer to Him. There are over 2 billion Christians world wide, and more coming to believe everyday.
  The remainder of people have their chance now to repent and believe.
  
  Here's a story:
  
  A fallen angel comes to satan and says, master we have some ideas on how to get people to disbelieve.
  
  satan says ok, give them to me.
  
  Demon one says: I know we will tell them God does not exist.
  
  satan says, well that will work for some, maybe a few, but most people do believe in God
  what else do you have?
  
  demon two says: Ok we will tell them God is dead.
  
  satan says, no no that really will not work. Very very few would ever believe that
  
  demon 3 says: I got it! We will tell them they have time.
  
  satan agreed this was the best answer yet.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  jesus is the devil. He taught separatist belief based on your dependent emotions. You are a separatist. You are not the favored prophet.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is God, Government is Government. God allows government to govern society. With government the people can have a say and change the government. God is God he cannot be controlled by anything anywhere is a constant and eternal. Supreme Creator of all things. Your argument=EPIC Fail.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Government is a grouped belief. The bible is a grouped belief. Need I say more? There is no government in individual belief.
  
  Your worship the government.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Weak! Please look up the word government and while you're doing that check out this book "Legislating Morality: Is It Wise? Is It Legal? Is It Possible?"
  by Norman Geisler Frank Turek
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This is a serious response?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'd ask you the same question for every comment you made comparing God to government if you're serious abut that I'm serious about you reading that book. Let me know what you learn.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  The answers not in your book. You were suckered. God is a grouped christian belief. Government is any grouped belief. Go back to your government education.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well you must live in bliss all th etime then. Makes one wonder why you feel the need to preach your irrational fears all the time.
  
  God heals the innocent children by killing them?
  
  Umm - sure. They go to be with Him and are Healed. Which is why you preyed so hard that your child not be saved, healed and rescued. Make perfect sense.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But abortion is okay if there in No God, your logic is anything but logical.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No Mark, God does not "kill" them. This world of sin does that. Why do you choose to blame God when you do not even believe He is real.
  Sin is the cause of death and disease. It was mans first sin thinking he would be like God having all that knowledge which brought the consequence of death, age, sickness, crime, disbelief etc. into this world.
  
  I prayed for my sons healing in this physical world because without him for even one day would break my heart. I would miss him for the time we could have been apart and profoundly so.
  
  I asked too that if God had chosen to take Him home, to take me as well. I wanted to be with my son. Yet, if God had chosen to take him home I would have dealt with it. I have dealt with that as well, Mark.
  I have great peace with that as I know we will be reunited one day soon.
  
  God chose in my life to heal one way and then another with the other. I have peace with both ways.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOL
  
  Then why are you so aggressive?
  
  And why do you need to make up silly facts to justify your ridiculous beliefs (lie)?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are really full of yourself, look at WHO I was responding to, it was NOT YOU!
  
  But you state that the Bible is not divine with such confidence. Lol
  So you float on your boat of doubt and mockery and hope beyond hope you are great enough to save your own soul and yes I will continue in my faith in Gods Holy Word!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your god is an absolute conspiracy. My belief is not absolute based on faith.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Science is not a faith, and by no means complete, that is the difference between having one book and a whole library.
  
  The fact is that there might be a creator at the end of discovery, but scientists are weary of making him the assumed truth, assuming facts does not help the scientific method at all.
  
  Scientists have not been able to prove the non existence of Baal, Buddha or the holy ancestors either., ergo according to your logic, they too must exist.
  
  If you look for the signs, you can also interpret that the great purple octopus is indeed all powerful, this is a non point, but you are welcome to your beliefs.
  
  Scientists keep getting grants for further research, doesn't that mean they don't have all the answers yet? or should they simply burn their journals and use the only book on the issue?
  
  Yes, and it was "night and day" before there was sun,So earth really is the center of the universe! and plants too... that as some mad scientists believe need sunlight for photosynthesis.. but the sun only came after the plants... yup, no gaps in logic there at all.
  
  That Moses hey, how clever... animals eat plants... would not make sense to make the animals first
  
  I could go on, but I am getting tired now, a godly trait since he needed a rest on sundays too... weird that most prayers are said on sundays though, god's day off you make him busy. Hmnn
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Until you have ALL the answers all you really have is faith.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  That is the funniest statement I have heard yet. :Lol:
  
  LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
  
  Well done. I am literally laughing out loud.
  
  "Your facts are just that - facts. But until you have every single fact your facts are no better than my ridiculous beliefs."
  
  Good one. Deary me. You people really are funny.
  
  And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Okay mark I knew I get you. Come on.
  Where did the space for the universe come from?
  
  Where did matter come from?
  
  Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
  Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
  
  When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?
  
  When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
  
  Until you can answer these, evolution cannot occur, In fact is did not occur, We all have faith yours is just more far fetched. You can google talk origins now I'll wait.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
  
  I really am lolling.
  
  You are soo funny. Sure - I will start believing in jeebus after that argument. You are the best ad for atheism out there.
  
  Where did the homos come from is more to the point. If god didn't want homos - why did he create them? ;lol:
  
  Are you skeered that they are more evolved than you are?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are are ALL sinners. Homosexuality is a sin like stealing is a sin I used to be a thief but God didn't make me one. Still waiting for answers stop getting off topic.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLO
  
  What topic? How skeered u r of homos and science? LOLOLOLOLOL
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Typical, Stop wasting my time. Evolution is NOT science, but keep the faith.
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOL
  
  Say it again. I love it when you say that....
  
  Is it a sin?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  mark, you just couldn't stay away. Prove it's science answer the questions, ALL of them take us through the method Good Luck.
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  TamCorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The nice thing about faith is that it's just...there, inside of a person--and no amount of ridiculing can take it away.
  
  Why can't it just be that simple, for all of you? Why tear apart each other's beliefs all of the time? None of you are going to change the others' minds...
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because the believers don't have minds. Thats the point.
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  TamCorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well, thanks for that clear explanation...actually, I really DO have a mind...
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  gadzooks batman! its copy & paste boy!
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Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago
I am a rational individual and I believe in God so yep all things are possible!

Is it truth , well thats for yout to decide your own truth.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The biblical god is a contradiction to being rational and logical.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Before dictionaries , there was God
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No there wasn't.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Say you , not me
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  TamCorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm with you, Eaglekiwi...and I consider myself to be a rational person, too...
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Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago
Why do you say God killed anyone?
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Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago
Murder is not ok ?
Is it ?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It depends on where your authority lies if you believe everyone is made in the image of God Murder is Wrong, but if there is no absolutes anything goes and morality is subjective. marines dream come true.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Which would work fine if eveyone beleived the same absolute , but obviously we dont....so might as well throw that aboslute out the window
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Depends. Ask the soldiers in a war. Some of them think they kill in the name of peace. Is that murder ?
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Eaglekiwiposted 15 years ago
I like this quote:

I am the Alpha and the Omega

1pm appointment ,Im late (again)

Play nice with each other now there are plenty of toys for everyone.
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
I think this discussion started off very well, proving that rational people can disagree on whether or not God exists. Sadly, it has degenerated into proof that irrational individuals can also believe in or deny God.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Amen.
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I`m still waiting for the grand finale.And I`ve sure grown tired of hearing the same questions asked over and over and over by the same few.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. I made a long, elaborate, fairly well thought-out post last night with 3 points and a short addendum about 10 pages ago, I guess, that I hoped might bring this to a head or serve to focus the questioners -- Point 1. Human life and human pursuits all rely on some form of faith and beliefs, including science as well as faith; point 2. scientific knowledge will always be incomplete and never explain all of reality, and science is not the same thing as reason, isn't the only form or use of reason, and answers only questions about quantifiable reality -- a small portion of existence; point 3. theories, including scientific ones, are human-made inventions to rationally account for undeniable phenomena ("facts") -- theories are not hemselves facts, they explain facts. This doesn't make them a bad thing, just a human thing.
  
  I got a smart retort from Evolution Guy who insists that the only type of faith there is is blind, stupid faith, preferably religious in nature (because that's the only sort he knows how to attack), an assertion that only methods that talk about measurable (quantifiable) reality are rational.
  
  I asked him to prove matter exists. He declined.
  
  I asked him to bring me 4 pints of justice -- as the only reality that exists and can be spoken of rationally is the measurable sort. He declined.
  
  The discussion slid back off into Hell and confusion.
  
  I'm not sure I have the ability to put any better punctuation mark on it than that. Those who've hijacked the thread have their own agendas and don't adequately respond to any post that they can't reformulate to fit their pre-conceived notions of what all "believers" are like (i.e. science-hating, conformist, literal-minded idiots).
  
  I tried to give another picture of a believer who is different than this, and why I am a different sort of believer -- hardly a unique variety, but very much myself (for better or worse). I tried to share something of my experience and what little learning I have garnered from years of study and struggle.
  
  I think the attempt was all but useless, if opening a space for tolerance and minimal agreement about a few things was my goal. Which it was. But I did meet some interesting and decent people and learned a few things, good things, about humans and my own assumptions about them here -- so it was not a useless thing **for me.**
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very well said. I noticed that when relevant questions are proposed that they are either ignored or responded to by personal attacks. But however they respond it's ok because the bible commissions us to give reasons why we believe what we do. So while some people call the act of respoding "preaching" & other similar phrases the fact of the matter is, we are comissioned by God to give valid reasons for our faith.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your god is a separatist.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are commissioned to tell me a lot of bull from a book that claims an invisible god?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He is a prophet. The government gods worker bee.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you commisioned to tell me things using a science that assumes the theoretical existence of an invisible entity called "matter"?
  
  I certainly am not saying matter doesn't exist, but prove to me it does. You'll soon find yourslef using arguments that have exactly the same logical form as proofs of God's existence -- because an invisible substrate supporting three dimensional reality is just as invisible as an invisible (i.e. can't be directly experienced through sensation) Deity.
  
  You'll tell me it must be there because it is the cause of visible effects -- just as many proofs of God's existence argue.
  
  You'll tell me that matter theoretically has such and such properties that allow visible, observable properties to exist as they do, or it explains the being of visible reality. Just like a proof of God's existence often does.
  
  You'll tell me qunatifiable reality requires the existence of this invisible material stuff to be what it is; I'll tell you the qualitative nature of the same things needs the existence of God to explain that.
  
  We'll both be equally rational, or equally irrational for the exercise.
  
  Or do you have another path open to you besides outright rejection of the very idea the "invisible" can be real?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok I'll bite. Why not. If you look up the word reason in the dictionary you will not find the word bull as a definition. So I'm not sure what you mean by bull exactly. Can you elaborate a little more on that please if you will?
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  Maximus591posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Attacking the faith-heads is a valid and worthwhile pursuit.
  
  If you have an opinion formulated by what you have read in the bible and that opinion is internalised within you in such a powerful and charismatic way, to such an extent, that YOUR opinion can no longer be contained as YOUR opinion, that you then feel the need to preach YOUR opinion, to foist it onto others, onto the weak and faithful, then frankly you are deserving of being attacked. You are deserving of criticism. You offer mere opinion. That doesn't cut it my friend. It really doesn't.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So far you've just made claims. That's all just claims. What are you saying exactly? Are you saying that whoever believes in the bible should be punished? And that when we answer people's questions as to why we beleive what we do, that our simple act of responding may rightfully be construed as "foisting" our beliefs onto the weak? Are you suggesting that whoever questions the Christian faith is weak? Because that's who we're responding to, those who question. Or, are you saying that these questioners are not weak because they question but rather because they beleived our response? And not so much because they believed but because you think they believed blindly? And if they did beleive blindly, (which I doubt, because they wouldn't have questioned in the frst place if they were naive) is this blind acceptance any different than that which students in grade school are "foisted" to accept regarding the false doctrine of darwinism on a daily basis?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Keep preaching. I'm sure you will reach some follower faith dependent minds.
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@THETRUTHURTS
YOU WROTE:
'Until you can answer these, evolution cannot occur, In fact is did not occur, We all have faith yours is just more far fetched. You can google talk origins now I'll wait'

Adaptation makes evolution occur. they are 2 different matters linked together.
something can't evolve if it doesen't find an adaptation to the environment.
Evolution needs adaptation.
not only in humans and animals ,but in material things as well.
So evolution happened, as everything is adapted trough time.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have no problem with variations, genetic recombination, adaptations, transduction, mutations, transformation, vital enzyme exchange through plasmids, conjugation within a KIND, it’s biblical and a proven fact, but when you Darwinist try to take leap of faith with “Give it enough time you turn anything to anything look at these bones” that where it stops being science and becomes a pseudoscientific religion. “. Darwinist seem to think variations, genetic recombination, adaptations, mutations conjugation within a kind + TIME god= apes to human, but that's simply impossible. "The amount of information in the 3 billion base pairs in the DNA in every human cell has been estimated to be equivalent to that in 1,000 books of encyclopedia size. If humans were 'only' 4% different this still amounts to 120 million base pairs, equivalent to approximately 12 million words, or 40 large books of information. This is surely an impossible barrier for mutations (random changes) to cross" Dr. Don Batten, Ph.D.
  I understand you have nothing left so I expect you to defend your beliefs like the many other false religions.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not a darwinist ! Just an atheist . As I dont't believe in anything or anyone, I don't believe in Darwin particularly. Don't get confused
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I apologize for the assumption, but my point stands. Have a great day!
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In order for man to have evolved into the way we see man now it would take far longer than the time scientists propose man has been on this planet. A true scientist would not ignore evidence that contradicts genereally accepted postulations. When scientists begin to ignore evidence or lack thereof they cease to become scientists & become idiots.
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bloodnlatexposted 15 years ago
I just checked again....

Heaven doesn't want me and Hell still isn't hiring, so you people are still stuck with me!
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  get some matches, start your own business....
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome to the Circus !
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Funny. Have you ever considered middle earth?
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Valerie Fposted 15 years ago
"Marine," until you can back up such a statement or clarify rather than just make blanket generalizations, you are only reinforcing the idea that unbelievers are just as irrational as believers. Your seeming belief that religion is some conspiracy theory doesn't help your case.

The way to prove you are more rational is to behave that way.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have already proven what I had to say along with the believers help. If you would have read the post's without picking and choosing, you would have seen that.
  
  "Any" grouped belief is a government. Is this hard to understand?
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Which mind is evolved, the biblical mind or the individual mind?
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  TamCorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not quite sure what you mean there...like I said before--faith is faith, you have it, no one can take it away from you, no matter what is heaped on you from others.
  
  I'm sorry--I'm not a debater on religion, I just wanted to answer the question that was asked.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So your answer is faith?
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  TamCorposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Faith in God, yes...and yes, I believe I am a rational individual...
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So which mind further evolves, one with an unlimited belief or one defined within a book? The government god contradicts logic.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You imply that you have an unlimited belief: Then you contrast this "unlimited belief" with "one defined in a book"; are you saying that your beliefs were not spawned from what you have read in times past? And are you suggesting that whatever beliefs one may adapt as their own if derived from a book that they are subject to a life of limitation? And are you further suggesting that you don't read books, and that you refrain from reading books because you don't want to subject yourself to the limitation that all us other "book readers" are subject to? And what do you mean by the phrase "government god"? Are you suggesting that the government is behind the idea to accept Jesus? Or are you saying that the idea of God is to have government & order? And that to submit to God is to submit to order and since you don't like order, you must resist anything that could lead to order and so you resist God, because you know that if there is God, He must like order. Knowing that there is a higher part of your self that would like to have order, but the lower part of yourself hinders you from walking in this order, you decide to not have order at all for lack of strength to strive for that higher order. And you assume that if there is a God, He must be stronger than you & is capable of walking in this order which you failed so miserably to walk in, and that He will probably require you to walk in the same manner as Him. And having tried before yet failing you'd rather spare yourself & God the sense of failure that you felt at the time & moment of surrender to your lower nature. So to avoid that whole struggle again it is so much easier to just say, "There is no God" and free yourself of the responsibility of having to strive for some ideal that you feel is unattainable. Well I got news for you buddy, we've all been there! That's why Jesus died for you. It takes the anointing of God's power to even be able to be of godly character. And there is a method that if one follows they will be able, "you will be able" to truly be without limits.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  More ignorance. Did your government god tell you to jump to the last post's in the thread to comment before reading? If you would read before jumping to the last post, your questions would have been answered. But unlike your irrational faith, you believe before reading and debating. Try to understand your own psycology of why your contradict your individual mind before you try to give lessons to others. Seriously, did you read any of the previous post's or just jump to the end to preach your government god? You are a limited mind.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well it depends, what do you mean by individual mind? Do you mean thinking for yourself & coming to your own conclusions regardless of what the majority of people think? It's acutally easier to go along with what we are taught in school, which for the most part is Darwinistic. It actually takes more individuality to draw conlusions logically rather than emotionally, like most atheists do. Because they had a run in with some baby Christian they figure that we are all bad. If my math teacher mistreated me should I conlude that the axioms of Calculus are untrue?
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  Evolution Guyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OOOOOOw . Nice,
  
  If you don't believe in god you must have been mistreated by a christian liar. Well done. No room for making a rational decision there. Niiiiice.
  
  Not possible to rationally decide the christian religion is garbage. No. Not possible. God says so.
  
  So - if you choose to pretend evolution is a lie, does that mean you were abused by a scientist?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well actually..... just kidding. I actually like science. I don't care if the person I'm learning from is my friend or not. I just want the truth, I could care less who it comes from. The example I used is a common reason why a lot of people choose to not go to church or meetings. Perhaps you should read my hub on Logic & Reason. Throughout all that you've stated, while I'm sure you spoke honestly from your heart, you continue to use faulty logic. What this means is that even though I disagree with your conclusions, it's not so much your conclusions that I'm really challenging here but rather the manner in which you are arriving at these conclusions that I am challenging.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  You understand logic but you believe the bible? Faith contradicts logic.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The only logic in your government belief system is that it contradicts having an individual mind. Your belief system also contradicts equality. Need more? Your belief system has no logic, you fill in the gaps with faith. Again, faith is a contradiction to logic.
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  JYOTI KOTHARIposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi,
  I am watching this discussion forum threads through out. Some people are speaking of faith in Christianity and God. Some are denying those and talking of science. However, both are parts of the truth. Say, sides of a coin.
  
  Please consider other religions and faith that leads to spirituality. It is better to look in to the world with open mind.
  
  Thanks,
  Jyoti Kothari
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How much of the thread did you read before jumping to the end? You are asking repetitive questions. Run circles somewhere else. Your assumptions are as ignorant if not more than your government belief.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Misery loves company. This is a true priciple. Do you feel ignorant? I never called you ignorant, there are alot of other insults you could have hurled at me. Why did you choose ignorant? Is it not because you yourself feel ignorant? This is not a manner of speech typical of those who have unlimited minds. You sound to me more like someone who is fettered by the chains of limitation.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  brilliant. Lead me to god. If you jump to the last few pages asking repetitive questions when something has already been written numerous times, that is ignorant. If you make an ignorant statement from being ignorant to post without reading the entire thread instead of picking and choosing, it makes you ignorant. If you continue making ignorant assumptions with no bearing, it makes you ignorant. Just because you are ignorant now doesn't mean you will be ignorant forever. There is always hope as long as you have faith.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think that perhaps you have selective recall. If your comment says "5 minutes ago" what difference does it make what other posts state. Im responding to your statement & question that you posted most recently. How is it that you don't notice this? Thus far you have failed to respond rationally to all claims in support of God's existence presented to you. There has been more than enough valid arguments presented to you on this topic to give it some serious thought. What difference does it make to me whether you believe in God or not? What stake do I have in this decision? Do you really think it affects me in my daily walk of life? We Christians share these things as an act of love, however unrefined our methods may be in some cases. You are more stubborn than rational, in my opinion. Because of the audacity of your manner of speaking I suppose you must be in your late 30's or 40's, what do you have to lose by being a little more open minded. Open-mindedness is a characteristic of unlimited thinking. The phrase which you hold so dearly. Waht was it? The Unlimited Mind, yeah that's it. I like the concept, you now have a co-laborer in the task of acquiring the Unlimited Mind. So without any further ado I think that about wraps it up. You have more than enough text throughout this whole thread to consider. Take your pick, and good luck. Kindly, Eric
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Brilliant. Defend your separatist belief. More wrong assumptions. Much like your government bible. You want to teach about unlimited mind and your belief is defined within a single book.
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  sooner than laterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Right you are. Once you call his blunder, he will swamp you with anger posts. Funny really.
  
  I do it all the time.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are the angry one because you worship a government god.
  
  It's funny you keep following me around. Maybe because you feel threatened that I am pointing out your separatist belief. You are a separatist.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  me too, He hates books too, Welcome back sooner how's the greenhouse?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Protect the faith!!!!
  
  You guys are like little government robots of belief. Destroy any individual that challenges the separatist faith!
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This coming for the guys who begs for people to agree him. Your a government marine
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  More assumptions. Am I still in the marines? Protect the faith.
  
  Who have I begged to agree with me? You haven't proven me wrong have you?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Earnest, tantrum, cosette, Cagsil, Go back and look you are so funny it's sad. you begged literally begged these people to agree with your anti-God rhetoric. And have developed a following. You’re a government!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! A new catch-all phrase!!!!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Full of lies to protect the faith aren't you? It's alright, continue lying. You will get out of hell if you ask for forgiveness.
  
  I would love for anyone mentioned to own up to me begging you to follow me.
  
  Remember prophet, my belief doesn't ask for followers, yours does.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What's a matter? Don't be mad. Call me ignorant again it will make you feel better.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I will let god do that. You are the one that has to answer to him. Go pray.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Okay government marine!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  You obviously don't read but what you pick and choose.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Whose the one who refused to read a book here.... you.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What book did I refuse to read?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't play dumb... oh wait, Well here it is again, even though I doubt you'll read.
  "Legislating Morality: Is It Wise? Is It Legal? Is It Possible?" by Frank Turek, Norman Geisler
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are these people the trinity?
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lovely book about America's moral decline... just weird that still only 16% of Americans are proclaimed athiests... makes one wonder who is causing this decline
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That 16% are teaching kids, There is no God, They are random accident, and there are no abosulutes just look into it.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yikes... teachers are all atheiststs? I suppose prolonged exposure to teenagers will make one lose his faith...
  my 2 cents: they should teach them that we don't know yet
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No, but you can't bring God into schools. See the stats since prayer has been taken out of school violence has risen, dramatically. The proof is all there.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure its related to removal of prayer?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, Look into Kip Kinkle the Colume Shoter both hardcore evoluntionist who killed because they were taught they was no God and They were simply killing random accidents. sad, but true. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRlFWTZFQLQ
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I refuse to follw links or read cut and paste from you truth, no disrespect intended, but if you have something to say say it, dont send me on a goose chase
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your choice, but still do the research, don't take my word for it.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think you are oversimplifying things a bit, I don't live in America, we have our share of people running amok in Europe, not nearly on the same scale though... none of them stated "evolutionism" as the motivational factor. Most schools here function quite well with religion as an optional subject... most take it to up their grades since they only have to read one book... creationism an anecdote, I don't think many take it seriously, still we don't seem to have the same scale of violence
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Don't mention all of your preachers in the news for molesting little boy's. You don't molest children do you?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wait, let me guess your interpretations. It was the devil right? Or, or, the preacher was performing a circimcision so the child could get into heaven right? Sick robotic minds.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think that stating the bloomin obvious again would serve any purpose.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is your worldview? What is your view of yourself? It is possible to question & pursue truth without insulting those who are just as curious. And I don't buy these idiotic rhetorical questions like, "How do we know anything" or "What is truth?" uttering these questions in the tone of the disney character Goofy. For those who would ask "how do we know anything" go jump off a cliff or jump in front of a diesel truck and then come back & write a hub about the reality of your experience. There are various dimensions of reality. Some dimensions of reality have more permanence than others. I thought the world world have figured that out by now.
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  sooner than laterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  you thought that you were a challenge to anything??? hahahahahahahahaha See truth, I told you he was arrogant?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Have you been having believer meetings to protect me from shattering your separatist belief? Are you nervous your life has been for nothing?
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  sooner than laterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He said "Shattered" again
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Protect the faith! correct spelling! Don't bother trying to prove me wrong!!! You worship a government god.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You proven you nothing of God and thus can't shatter anything but your common sense, great job it's almost gone.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  My common sense isn't denied for faith.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes it is government!
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  sooner than laterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What government?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your separatist belief.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That's not an answer, There! I've shattered your non-religious, religious beliefs. this is fun!
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  sooner than laterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  yeah, take if from the top again.
  
  a government group of 12 started religion to control "us". I barely made that whole sentence without giggling.
  
  have you explained your "theory", I mean idea to your new friends?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is a grouped belief?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Everyone you ask with such desperation "Would you agree?" You've asked that so much it's sad.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have asked so many times it's sad. You still haven't answered why you believe in your separatist belief.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! The same word used twice!
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Another one of your followers~~
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are right. The hubbers you have named are all people who participate in the community here, and came here to do something other than fill the forums with tripe!
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  kmackey32posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi earnest. Im following you too.
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  sooner than laterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's coming along swimmingly. I just ordered a product called "polycarbonate". It has a few aplications, but works really well as siding on greenhouses. I can't wait until it gets here. Costs a pretty penny though.
  
  This house is gonna feed many.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Im tempted too, but it never leads to anything productive. And I think that deep down they are curious or else why would they be here? If they were here for no other reason than to just heckle & pester us that would mean that they are being irrational, which of course is the same thing they are always accusing us of. Funny isn't it?
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
@thetruth
Have a grat day !
My position stands as well
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Lee Booleanposted 15 years ago
My position is taking a break
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah !! I'm off Bye everybody. enjoy !
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Paradise7posted 15 years ago
You know, marinealways, the weird thing is...cutting edge science re-defines reality to such an extent that the Newtonian view of matter as solid, and logic based on those Newtonian views, is considerably outdated.

New science indicates that what we believe can change reality; or actually shapes our reality. Our reality is based on our belief systems.

You might not believe in God, but you believe in logic. Whatever you believe in shapes what reality is, for you, and for all of us in that we hold certain views of physical reality in common.

Reality is what we believe it is. So new science says.

That would indicate to me that anyone's belief in God is equally as valid as anyone's belief in logic, and the Newtonian universe that works on (passe) principles of physics that can't be contravened.

Check this out if your interested:

http://hubpages.com/hub/Noetics-The-Sci … sciousness
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The bibles example of a creator are ridiculous. Logic proves the bible wrong from it's countless contradictions. I disagree with god, not a creator. I don't know if theres a creator or not. I do know that jesus is a government god.
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Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years ago
How much commission? I may want in on this.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It depends on your closing ratio. Are you experienced?
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kmackey32posted 15 years ago
Wazzup earnest and Ron.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  'sall good kmack, how you been?
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Thanks for all the attention fellas. I'm sure you have only made people more curious that your faith is a government belief by all the attention you 2 have given me. Protect the faith!!!
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darrylcrawfordposted 15 years ago
Since we are not supreme intelligence it is wise to ask this question. Now going back to the question, "can a rational individual believe there is a GOD", I believe one can only believe what one is willing to believe.

No one can make anyone believe anything. With all the logic that has been reasoned with, which only means (which I have stated on a similar topic on my hub) our challenge always in life is that we see from a limited perception of reality and we need to see with more than our limited eyes tells us. We see and understand a small part of our reality and our brain attempts to make logic of it and we create presuppositions of the how, the why, the essence of what we are seeing and thus most of our limited conclusions are usually incorrect until and unless we can see the whole picture and attain all the information concerning the particular thought or view that we are theorizing.

Understanding life requires much more than logic. That kind of thinking only breeds lack. Since we are imperfect beings it would be to our disadvantage to not look to our creator for the answer and answer is "existence" and all that is that we see and don't see with our naked eye.

As one person stated on another web site and added to it a bit, "The odds that we came together from gazillions of atoms to be the beautiful creatures we are today by random accident is a radically illogical thought even more so it is a ridiculous impossibility".

The truth is we are all products of what we believe, period.
I too was confused being a child growing up in church, not allowed to challenge my belief and I was sinning if I was not accepting. That form of thinking control me for nearly 2 decades and I was not satisfied. We are created in the essence of God yet we're not perfect and it makes perfect since to me now. If we were perfect, there would be nothing to learn, nothing to gain because, well , we would be perfect. Our challenge in life is to ask the question and expect an answer but if we're not open to receive the answer, that question will never be answered.....to us because we're not ready for it.

Now I believe all creation is governed by law, however there are some who has abused that law and created dishonest laws which govern many peoples life today which make up the sum total of our belief system according to our faith. The idea that God wants us to follow "him" (who said God was a man) or else we'll burn in hell is a sick law which men (sorry fella's I'm a man too but it's the truth) created for control and manipulation over other people.

Now I believe God never intended man to rule over man or even woman. I believe God created us all to exist and to ask the higher self "who am I", why am I here" etc. etc. and the higher self (God) always points the best and most perfect way and it is totally up to us to listen and choose or reject what we hear. God does not blame, but patiently tries again to show the perfect way, the loving way. All of creation pushes forth. We are ever becoming. Identity ever remains! EVER GROWING! Personally I do believe in God, a higher being, a higher power that has been and always will be, has given us all here in the third dimension the power of choice, to question, to stretch our faith muscles to the max and expect an answer from the source. No one person can answer this question without debate since we all are imperfect. It is all determined by a matter of belief and that my dear friend is a question only God can answer. All we can do is offer our beliefs, nothing more.

It is up to the person who is rationalizing to decide which path they wish to believe. It is a good question I admit. One most never be closed mind and conditioned and not be allowed to ask a question which filled with perplexing answers from many sides of personal beliefs system.

I believe we are, so God is.
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Cagsilposted 15 years ago
Again, this forum is never dull, that's for sure.

Again, let's stop for a second and examine what's happening.

Yes, some believe in "GOD" and some don't.

Fine. However, it is blind assumption and nonsense to believe in something you can not see, taste, touch, hear or feel.

Sure, "GOD" is supposedly a higher authority, possessing unbelieveable almight powers. He has the ability to be everywhere and nowhere. He can be inside you?

Just the meer thought of having an entity with that ability, but he never shows his face to anyone, leads me to lean toward scams.

You might find yourself, asking or praying, for guidance, but what you refuse to face is the facts.

If you seek an answer or guidance? Where do you think your answer is going to come from? A non-existent deity, supposedly roaming around on Earth, helping and protecting everyone from themselves?

No, I don't think so. But, if you really want to be honest with yourself.....when you pray to get your answer and when you get it(answer).....wouldn't you be amazed to learn that you actually got your answer from yourself?

I wouldn't.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
More believer psychology. Anything to protect the faith. Ask questions repeatedly. Don't answer questions. Protect government jesus!
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Cheer up! I think you may need to go and pray.
Hi Marine.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Earnest. Fighting the faith!
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What a joke! More defending your non-faith, faith.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is my non faith, faith?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What you're defending. Why else would you spend all your "free" time fighting unless you believed something else?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Am I making any money off of it?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not sure, my church does not demand money. nice try
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  No, your church only teaches a robotic belief system and followers of separatism.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Another assumptive generalization? Shocking~
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Better to be defending a non faith faith than your narrow excluding faith faith.
  You base your truth on old stories from a book of controlling lies, written to control the ignorant, and rewritten from stories that came before them.
  Logical people believe in the millions of interlocking proofs from all areas of learning that point clearly to evolution.
  A family of 3 left footsteps in the volcanic rock that are 3.5 Million years old, give or take very little. Keep up!
  Another new man in the chain discovered only last week, read something!
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where do I begin on the nonsense of Evolution. Have you done your homwork? I don't want waste my time.
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  hee hee...tell us how the Grand Canyon was formed in two weeks by waters from the Great Flood!
  
  tantrum means no harm, he just expresses his feelings. he gets as good (or worse) as he gives...
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Tell how rivers flow upstream to form the Grand Crayon, and How life came from nonlife, and The big bang somehow made iron, and how nothing exploded, and how the princess kissed the frog and billion of years later it became a man. Please~
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Does your government bible explain all that?
  
  Bible believer: "Um, no, but I know the demensions for a temple".
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  well...that pseudoscience is exactly what they are teaching at that Creation Museum in Kentucy.
  
  crazy!
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You can't be serious with that vid.
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  what do you mean?
  
  that is a real place! the video was a real video by the BBC. everything they teach there is real. crazy, isn't it? i think it answers the OP's question perfectly.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have had it all offered to you at least a dozen times before, but apparently you do not read or hear anything about science since biblical times. Truth can be discerned from empirical evidence.
  There is enough empirical evidence from all of the sciences to sink a ship!
  Only indoctrination would explain your beliefs.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What empirical evidence is there to support that NOTHING EXPLODED and then became a solar system?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The thing that cracks me up the most is how evolutionists jump from evolution which is darwins theory regarding life on this earth which is a study within biology to the big bang theory which is a theory within cosmology. It's basically just a bunch of athesists who made some pretty far reaching claims about the world as we know it and tried to fill in some pretty large gaps by meshing together these two theories and forcing THESE views onto our unsuspecting youth. The most preposterous of claims is that "NOTHING EXPLODED"! Give me a break! Come on seriously. There was nothing and then it exploded. Please.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Tell me about it. Evolution is a fairy tale for grown-ups who want to try and evade God. They're losing grip fast people are starting to wise up.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  hey, you're cute... and you know how to quote without repeating the entire thread in your reply... there is hope for the future after all
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cosetteposted 15 years ago
haha....every time i see one of these religious topics and see the name earnestshub or tantrum i just HAVE to go peek 'cause i know it's going to be a lively discussion!
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So true. Me too! If one can keep from getting emotionally involved it's fun toiling with him! He does have a tendency to get under people's skin and he knows it too!
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sooner than laterposted 15 years ago
Marine and Maximus are one in the same.

Now we know what marine looks like. I figured he was in mid 20's
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  maybe?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are wrong again with your ignorant assumptions prophet. You still say your not ignorant?
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Wow! 2 atheists who killed. These are great stats!
It's all proven then. Either we believe in your flying fairy because it was written in your book the way you read it, and then we will stop all the killing. That is inane, for gobs sake make some sense!
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Evoluntionary atheist, like Hilter, Stalin, Pol Pot. Do you need a history lesson too?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are in a separatist belief system just like they had. You worship a government god to keep you from acting as an animal.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hitler was a christian and you know it!
  Do you realize how many are dying in religious wars as we speak, and how many countries are in a religious war?
  
  Facts don't seem to matter to you!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I tried to explain to them that their favored belief is separatism. They will not accept it.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hilter was Roman Catholic not christin, but read Darwin book and figured Jews and others were underevolved and want to build a super race, with eugenics labs, nice try ,but I know histroy. you not so much. Hilter used evolution to justify killing millions. You forgot Stalin, Poi Pot
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, all separatist, just like yourself hypocrite.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever you say separatist governmentt marine. Where do I donate.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, don't read previous post's where I said at least 3 times that i'm not in the marines anymore. Pick and choose. Protect the faith. You worship the government you animal.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Whatever you say separatist governmentt marine. Seriously Where do I donate?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The government of course. The same place you donate your belief and tax money.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  wow... I am having the most incredible deja-poo... the destinct feeling that I have read this sh!t before
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  They believe in absolutes! If 2 killed, they must all kill.
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zarquonposted 15 years ago
I don't think it has to do with rationality but an open mind.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My opinion is that in order for a mind to be open it should first be rational, or else there will be allowed all kinds of various doctrines to enter into one's way of thinking. Developing a dynamic epistomology is of the utmost importance for then your able to boldy examine various concepts without the risk of being drawn in and taken captive by some silly doctrine unawares.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is that your genius philosophy that got you into your separatist belief? You are one to be learned from.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Holy crap!!!! That is some video! See this is what is wrong with the world. People like this.
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  cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  i allowed my son to be exposed to other ways of life than my own...other philosophies...and if he wanted to be a Christian, that would be his choice. that is the difference because the people taking their children to places like that museum are feeding their children hogwash and they know it.
  
  which is sad.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hogwash? Johannes Kepler-Founder of Astronomy Young earth creationist
  
  Robert Boyle- Founder of modern Chemistry
  Sir Issac Newton-Young earth creationist
  Louis Pasteur-Pioneer of Micro biology
  All major branches of Science were founded by Christians and most were Young Earth Creationist, You say Creationist must be crazy just remember that the next time you get your MRI, or enjoy many of the luxuries of modern medicine and other YEC.
  
  People who believe in evolution have been brainwashed. Even though they are quick to say the same about Creationists, but let’s do the math(evolutionist hate math) students spend 12 years in public schools that roughly 2280 days not including college, If the child goes to church they go 1 day a week that 52 times a years that roughly 624 days in 12 years, which has more time brainwash. So it would seem that Christians are thinking outside box. Some Christians I know never went to church as children there parents were agnostic and they believed evolution, went to college and were further indoctrinated with evolution, but when they did their homework on what they were taught they couldn’t believe the BULL they were taught as fact. “The field of evolutionary study is fraught with scandal and deception. Unfortunately, those who question evolution are subjected to criticism and censorship. Thus, evolution, disguised as science, is forced upon students by means that intimidates questioning and stifles reasoning. In effect, students are brainwashed to accept evolution without question. Don‘t believe me ? You should watch the movie “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed” It will you think twice.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  more deja-poo... do you have this all in one file and just keep posting it en every forum?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Truth does not need to change unlike evolution.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  yup, the burden of having more than one work of reference.. sigh
  these dumb people spend so many years in university and all they needed to do was not doze off in sunday school... they would have all the answers!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ignorant separatist.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where do I donate government of marine?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Donate to your separatist belief.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You need it more.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why is that prophet?
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  come up with some new wit, that is getting old
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  not for me
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  O yes, you can be astonished by reading the same thing over and over again,, I forgot
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't interesting how these facts are left out of the textbooks. Makes you wonder about who really is in control doesn't it? In school, teachers are always quoting learned men who made quotes regarding their beliefs stating that there is no creator. But if a learned man or scientist made quotes in favor of a creator they are readily ignored and followed by the statement, "We can't talk about religion in school." So inconsistent makes me want to puke!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  More ignorance.
  
  Do you not understand why this is? Because there is no common ground. Religious should not be honered for their favored belief systems. You are a separatist.
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I believe school should teach knowledge, not theory. kids are too innocent to be dragged into any kind of doctrine, what they decide for themselves once they are mature enough to make any sort of judgement is their business.
  
  for what its worth, but I get the feeling my contributions are being ignored here too, so I'm off to bed. Bye guys!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Gn you devil!
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lee! Wait don't go yet! Regarding your statement "school should teach knowledge & not theory" I like it and agree entirely. If our demands were met they would cease to teach evolution and the big bang theory. They should have substituted evolution for critical thinking and the world would be much better off, rest assured.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Another conspiracy?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A conspiracy suggests there is a hidden agenda behind keeping the concept of God out of schools. Whether it is a conspiracy or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is that darwinisim is being forced down childrens throats right from the very beginning. The question to ask is why? Screw the conspiracy, who cares?! Evolution is not the only possible explaination for life as we know it. Children should be given a choice in such matters. Is this not a form of control & brainwashing?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The control and brainwashing is that you can't see you worship a government separatist god.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You bragg about your government college and then complain about your government public education. Go back to the books. How much money does the government make off of your "private" college?
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Some schools don't even have the children recite the pledge of allegiance any more, it's pretty sad really.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why should they, it has the separatist god in it's verses?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Seriously, you’re making my nauseous. Are you sure you were a marine?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You should already know prophet. You didn't read the previous post's either or you would have seen I already answered this question ignorant one. Are you not ignorant for asking repetitive questions that have already been asked and making assumptions? Should I not call you ignorant?
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Call me whatever you want. I know someone who went through more for me.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know nothing but what your government god allows you to know.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's still more than you'll ever grasp.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure you do. You are the chosen prophet!
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who's the dummy now? Do you worship oligarchy governments in politics as well as your belief?
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but that's what the country you fought for was founded on. One nation under GOD, In GOD we trust, so help me GOD, endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights etc. ect..
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your god is a separatist government god of hate. I served for freedom of people to use their individual minds. Not for ones content in ignorant separatist belief. I already answered this question as well.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where is that in your oath?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not limited to oaths anymore.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nor should anyone be limited to oaths. The oath needs changing.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  or reality
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You talk about reality with a belief system that not only believes in a non existent god, but reckons others non existent gods are wrong! Hilarious!
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It that so ex christian?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's called "atheists unlimited" a for profit organization.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  and profit is bad right?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wrong! Profit is good, it can be used to get a building for "atheists unlimited"
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  More assumptions genius.
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I understand you served for freedom, and you rightly deserve it. However, you can't deny that our country was founded on GOD. All religion aside I think the children should still say the pledge, even if they don't want to say the GOD part.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree to honoring the flag and country, just not a favored belief separatist government god. Our country evolved so rapidly on the free market and individual ideas, not a 1 system separatist belief. Our country became the richest from a free market, not a government market. Did we come from a 1 belief government or a government with debate?
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's also currently on a downward spiral, because of a lot of those ideas. Maybe it is time to get back to the foundation.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  That contradicts being a free country! Govenment control ruins the free market. Government control is not free. You must love Obama.
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quite the contrary. I like checks and balances, and would be a lot happier if we were still a republic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuGIpsdE0
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You for posting the link. A good link for anyone to watch. Now I will explain why the bible is a government god.
  
  The bible is a Oligarchy. 1 group belief a few creators/leaders. A tyranny of he elite. Obama wants an Oligarchy. You already know this. The bible wants the same.
  
  You agree that a republic is the best government, yet you believe obligarchy is the best belief? Explain this please.
  
  A divine being would give us the ability to recognize a republic as the best government, but not recognize the lack of debate in an oligarchy belief system?
  
  Obama pushes for his one belief system. What does the bible push for? Obama contradicts individual rights constantly pushing for more government control. The bible contradicts individual belief for control.
  
  Obama pushes for his group belief. What does the bible push for? Majority control through a 1 belief system.
  
  Is oligarchy a elite's ruler system or a system of debate? Is the bible a elite's ruler system or a system of debate?
  
  You just showed in the link that we were founded under republic belief because it is the best option. Now we are headed to an oligarchy if obama gets his way.
  
  So, the bible was created in an oligarchy belief system, not a republic belief system.
  
  You still think we were founded under god in a republic belief system?
  
  god contradicts a republic.
  
  Only faith wins over logic.
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I still think that. Our Republic was founded on faith in GOD by the founding fathers. What the BIBLE says, and what people actually do are two different things. My personal belief about what I think is the best governmental system means nothing, because it is a belief system for humans. Do you really think GOD cares about our government? What is done is done, and now it's time to preserve what we have. Well, those of us who want to keep a republic anyway.
  
  I interpret your view as people creating GOD. I can't understand that view, because I know GOD created people. The BIBLE cannot be compared to an Oligarchy, or any other governmental system for that matter, because it was created by GOD. It is his word. He is creator and destroyer of all.
  
  That's what people without faith don't understand. They try to use science, and human principles to explain something that is so far beyond comprehension. Those human explanations only work to a point (literally there is no proof- spontaneous creation of matter, big bang, evolution etc.), and then you have to keep faith. It doesn't matter under what condition the BIBLE was created, because if everything was perfect everyone would choose to have faith in GOD, and there would be no need for any government. Everyone would just live for the lord. But everyone doesn't choose to have faith, and the government we have is best suited for freedom.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The same government ideas that wrote the bible are the same ones in goverment now and you still deny it.
  
  How logical is it for humanity to believe the same belief? Exactly.
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I never said any of your ideas were stupid, and I feel i have proven my point on all of them.
  
  GOD was here long before any government. This is where our opinions differ, because my view is explained here:
  
  I interpret your view as people creating GOD. I can't understand that view, because I know GOD created people. The BIBLE cannot be compared to an Oligarchy, or any other governmental system for that matter, because it was created by GOD. It is his word. He is creator and destroyer of all.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Now you are making things up. Did god write the bible?
  
  The reason it fits into the oligarchy system is because it is an oligarchy system. What is different?
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's really a moot point, because you don't have faith in the BIBLE or GOD. I'm not making anything up, to me the BIBLE is the word of GOD. Whatever GOD wanted us to know about living our lives, having faith, judgment, heaven, hell etc.. is in there. It's not an oligarchy to me, because you can't define GOD. To someone with faith it's not something you can categorize. If there were no republic, oligarchy, monarchy, democracy, or any form of government, GOD would still be there. If you want to label Christianity or religion in general an oligarchy you have that right. The people still have the right of free will and choice under GOD, and that doesn't exactly fit in under your oligarchy.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Believe or go to hell? That is free will to you? Is this how you prove my ideas wrong?
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  ediggityposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I said you have a choice. I didn't say what is going to happen to you. GOD will judge, not me.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A threat of hell is not free will. It puts fear in belief. Fear in belief is not free will.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't make since to threaten people with the prospect of hell or try to use fear tactics as a vehicle to impart the truth of God's existence. This is an indirect attempt to FORCE someone to accept the truth of God's existence. These are not good reasons to accept the claim of God's existence. Notwithstanding, there are people who employ these methods. If someone is really researching Biblical beliefs for validity & soundness, they should find the strongest argument in favor of the particular Biblical belief in question & then begin their investigation there; If of course they are honestly searching for answers. To pick out the weakest argument in favor of a particular position & then attempt to refute that particular argument, knowing that there are stronger arguments in favor of that which they are refuting, is not a manner of inquiry employed by someone who is carrying out an honest investigation.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Alright, let's get down to it, is the bible logical?
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Only mind and opinions are illogical.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So is faith and interpretation. Which is more logical, logic or faith and interpretation?
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Interpretation requires logic, usually. They are not mutually exclusive, by any means. For that matter, to use logic well often requires an interpretation of pemises, statistical information, or hypotheses, depending on whether one is using deductive, inductive, or abductive logic.
  
  Interpretation also may use symbolic logic to sort through the structure of claims and sentences.
  
  It is not a matter of "either/or" but "both/and".
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Alright, not sure i'm following you.
  
  So if something has contradictions, it can only be logical through interpretation? I understand every person has their own logic. How logical can a person be when they accept contradictions as logic?
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1. Everyone does not have his/her own logic. Logic has a set of axiomatic rules that have to be followed, proper forms, standards for truthfulness or probability, predictability, etc. These rules and forms have nothing to do with whether anyone agrees with then or uses them or not. One cannot make up a set of rules and standards off the top of one's head and call it, properly, "logic."
  
  Logic is not mathematical, but it is very close to mathematical reasoning.
  
  2. The Bible is loaded with contradictions ... if you insist on reading it like a newspaper. Literally. The only readers of the Bible, believers and unbeliers, who do this are called "fundamentalists" or "literalists." Theirs is the MINORITY position in tradition -- traditional Jews and Christians do NOT read the Bible as if it's a newspaper. You may as well read a poem literalistically and expect to see what it is saying.
  
  One level at which the Bible can be read, and ought to be read, is through its history -- the history of the people who wrote the books, what they were responding to, their growing understanding of Who God may be. The Bible actually shows people changing their minds about God over many centuries, learning more about God and about what it is to be human.
  
  So, in earlier books, there are often statements that shock us -- later, there are statements that contradictions to the earlier ones -- because people have changed their minds and learned something. And some of the statements made were never intended to be taken literally to begin with -- such as the two (2) different and literalisticaly conflicting creation stories in Genesis.
  
  The Genesis story is a symbolic story -- the order in which things are made serves to show that things humans have been prone to worship as "pagans" is itself disordered; for example, the sun is created after plants. Why? Not because the sun really came into being after plants (an absurdity no one really believes except those who truly have cut off their ability to reason), but because humans were prone to sun-worship in the ancient world; the creation world demotes the sun in order of IMPORTANCE beneath even plants, as plants are alive and the sun is not.
  
  Interpreting scripture is much more difficult and nuanced than 99.9% of people who have visited this forum have noticed. The unbelievers and the Fundamentalist believers actually read the Bible in exactly the same way -- they have more in common than they have different between them, but don't see it.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Alright work with me. Based on your definition of logic, is the bible logical to you?
  
  How do you group me compared to a bible believer and why?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If Obama was trying to be a dictator MSN online would be shutdown!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are a blind obama follower. You have no clue of his ideaology to run a country. He is currently pushing for government intervention on conservative radio and the internet with proposed internet czars with ability to take complete control in "emergencies" if they get their bill passed. Ignorance is bliss. Believe.
  
  Obama is the messiah, right?
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  atomswifeyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh my goodness marine! Something we agree on!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad you see what Obama is doing. I wish you saw he uses the same ideaology the bible uses.
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GracieLindaposted 15 years ago
Why is there such a fight about this? Can't you all just worship as you please and not try to degrade others? I can't read all these posts but the ones I did show incredibly egotistical attitudes.
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R P Chapmanposted 15 years ago
When are they installing the Harry Potter exhibit?
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  Lee Booleanposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  don't be silly.. harry potter is not in the budget, the talking snake is next
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How could you?
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Notice, No believer has challenged me that they aren't in a separatist belief system.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  keep telling yourself that! Where do I send the check?
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe you're just being ignored.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Because the believer picks and chooses what to respond to.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  yawn!
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I`ll respond to your seperists belief in a moment.Let me type it out.
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R P Chapmanposted 15 years ago
"2280 days not including college, If the child goes to church they go 1 day a week that 52 times a years that roughly 624 days in 12 years"

It's not often you see less education promoted as a good thing. That made me smile.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  While your reply is humorous and made me chuckle a bit, the point made is valid.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How about another point genius. Your separatist belief system is the only one that needs to be studied. I don't have a book to study my belief. Study your government god.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your sounding sillier and sillier. I really hope you go back to college. You need more training. Use your G.I. Bill to pay for it, what do you have to loose? Don't be mentally lazy. You like to argue that's good, why not direct that energy towards something that will make you more dynamic? You have nothing to loose and everything to gain. You talk about having an unlimited mind everyone's mind is unlimited. It's your way of thinking that could make your potential ulimited. If your way of thinking is dynamic than your potential wil be unlimited. Go and learn therefore.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Go back to college and learn individual thought genius!
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Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago
What believers experience,true believers experience is an intimate,personal,one on one relationship with God.No matter what faith it is labeled,when a true believer meets the true God,it is a life changing event.And when you meet Him there is no confusion as to wheither it`s real.
Because of sin,every person that`s ever been born was born seperated from God.When God created Adam and Eve they were created perfect,without sin.The Bible says the Spirit of God breathed the breath of life into them.Thus placing his Spirit in them.When they sinned God took his spirit from them.
All have been created and born since without Gods Spirit.When you are invited and called by God to know Him and recieve Him, you recieve His Spirit.The choice is yours."Thus Free Will".
Most believers are ajoined or affiliated with a faith or organized church because those who God used to invite them were."Thus Goverment Religion"as you say.But when you accept Christ you do it on His terms.He says it must be this way.
But each individual believer sets himself apart from the group in a personal,private relationship with God.Each seeks to know God and experience Him on His terms with them and allow His Spirit to direct them.Yes,believers group together with others,but for fellowship and like belief and encouragement.Some do follow blindly"Thus Cults".But the true believer seeks to know God personally,intimately,to strive to become more like God,by allowing Gods Spirit to lead.Yes,we are called to be seperate from the world,so that God may be seen in us."Thus Seperatists".We are required by God to lead a seperate lifestyle of faith and obedience.which pleases God.
But the mindset of true believers is to follow God,to follow His Spirit.A name on a church building is just some place to hang your hat.
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  thetruthhurts2009posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Amen! And with this truth. I'm off to bed. God Bless you!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am simply trying to get across that there is on common ground in a separatist belief. How many wars have separatist beliefs created over the years?
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes,there is a seperatist belief and any person who says different is lying.You are correct about wars.Probably 80% started because of (religion) or seperatists belief.But my faith does not teach me to be divisive.All these things occour because man leads instead of God.
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  sooner than laterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  well said.
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  hinckles komaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  that's exactly what iam talking about wars due to religion. how do we 1st explain that to our kids?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The truth. That religion/bible is government creation, not divine creation.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is an oligarchy belief system. How would an oligarchy belief system work in humanity if it dosn't work in government?
  
  Thank You for your honest response. Always appreciated.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Rick, no god would need obedience.
The hateful biblical god is feared and worshiped by believers.
Even a man with a decent self worth does not need to be idolized in this way, it is a nonsense!

Obedience to an individual god is a man made and limited concept that is psychologically unsound.
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then why have law?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  To keep you from acting like the animal you are.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  TheLoanConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sir, in your photo next to the baby I think you resemble an animal more than me.
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  hinckles komaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Humans are all part Mammals. Our science history proves that. Who looks more or less like human now that's another topic for me. Yes a rational individual believes in what ever he wants including gods sister.love all
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  Rick Marlowposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How`s it going buddy?We`re still chewing on that same piece of fat ain`t we.Good to know you`re still out there gouging someone.Even if it`s me.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No gouging surly! Life is good! Thank you for asking. I hope I find you well and happy
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  An oligarchy god. A new word I learned from a believer. I try to learn something from everyone. Even the ones that deny logic for faith. Also the ones that criticize individual ideas to protect their government god faith.
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hinckles komaposted 15 years ago
Who's gods president?
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Star Witnessposted 15 years ago
There have been numerous philosophers and theologists who were/are much more rational than many Hubpage forum posters here who have/do believe in God.

So, simply stated, yes, absolutely rational people can believe in God. The rational of all stripes usually don't come into this forum for various reasons, so loaded question.
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  Richard VanIngramposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe it was an extremely naive question and explanation on my part. " Naive" in that, I'm not sure what I expected here, since I don't use the forums.
  
  Now I know.
  
  I'm an Aquarius -- that allegedly makes me an intellectual, creative idealist, and a reformer . . . which is synonymous with "disappointed" often times.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Decided to shout your name this time?
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