"Absolute truth implies that truth cannot be subject to one's own mind, but is rather established by an absolute and common Creator, therefore proving God's existence. If there is no absolute truth, it cannot be absolutely held true that God does not exist." unknown
With the above in mind, please provide me proof and/or evidence that atheism is true and correct.
If you would like to use evolution please provide answers to these three questions first.
1. Where did the space for the universe come from?
2. Where did matter come from?
3. Where did the laws of the universe come from (gravity, inertia, etc.)?
If you do not answer the above questions and show evidence(real evidence) to support it, I will not respond. And I will not respond to name calling.
"The burden of proof for God's existence doesn't reside with the one who asserts God's existence because it is not at all a burden to prove God's existence. What is an impossible burden is proofing He doesn't exist." unknown
P.S. No tricks please, No evading, No double talk, I want proof.
Not to mention, our technology is not great enough (yet) to experiment on any of these things.
1. A collision of extra dimensional membranes resulting in the creation of space/time and very large quantities of matter and anti-matter. The resulting collision of matter and anti-matter created the largest explosion that has ever occurred in this universe (the big bang).
This can't be proven, because we don't have the tools. You also can't prove that God did it either.
2. See the answer above.
3. The major forces in the universe separated from the one 'super-force' that was present at the instance of creation. It is believed that other universes weight the values of each of these forces differently (gravity is weaker, nuclear power is stronger, magnetism is stronger) resulting in different types of universes.
This also cannot be proven, but you cannot prove that god did it either.
"It is believed" is not proof
I said proof. not conjecture.
You have no proof of god either, only your faith. What's your point?
The more I hear from religious people the more I pity their stupidity.
Wasn't trying to... only trying to make a point.
Jerami - I am not an atheist. I believe in god. I do not believe in God as Christianity explains it.
Spiderpam - What do you mean explain planets like Venus? Matter that was orbiting the same distance from the sun eventually consolidated itself into a single, nearly spherical object.
If god is all knowing, all good, and all powerful, and evil still happens, how does god exist?
How do you know evil without having good to draw a comparison. A negative cannot exist without a positive. I answered this a while ago you just didn’t see it. btw I have no religion and you forget God is also Just.
I was making a joke. If evil and good are just a comparative measure, then how do you know what you are doing is good - and not evil? What defines the negative as negative and positive as positive? Is right positive, or is left? That wasn't an answer, it was just a deflection. I've seen all of these arguments from evangelists and disputed every single one without altering my own world view.
Read this hub if you want the full rebuttals.
More Double talk and evasion Are you sure you are not an atheist?
Positive, are you sure you're not religious? Are you going to actually answer any of those questions, or just deflect, like you accuse me of doing?
Not religious, I know you have to label me in order to elevate your self, but it won’t work here. We determine good by the bible and believe or not so do you, you borrow from it and then try to use it against Christians it’s pretty redundant. Name 3 laws that are not directly or indirectly influence by the teachings of the bible or morality?
Don't pretend to know me. I do not want to elevate myself above you, I just want you to realize the absurdity of this question.
The bible is not proof. Don't use it here. Don't pretend to know me (again). I take my sense of good and evil from what benefits everyone involved in a situation. The bible just outlines those principals for those who are too weak-minded to discover them for themselves. It caters to the weak-minded.
3 Laws? I'll do you one better.
Right to bear arms
Right to refuse illegal search and seizure
Right to trial by jury
None of those are in the bible. There, I answered your questions. You still have yet to answer mine. Stop being hypocritical by deflecting.
You pretended to know me by your comment don't be offended now.
Have you even read the bible?
Sanhedrin Trial of Jesus
Book of Isaiah
Nice try though. What was your question?
You clearly have not read my responses at all, and you're still deflecting. Hypocrites are annoying.
LOL, south park!
Deflecting again. Lost cause.
YOU CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE. YOU CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE. YOU CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE. YOU CANNOT PROVE A NEGATIVE.
Prove to me that a flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist.
This is problem. In matter many thing is relativism. Not in spiritual realm. Let say positive test for TB is not good. Being positive in word (mouth)is good. But positive and negative is related to matter.
Will no longer respond due name calling. good day
I didn't call you a name, I said I pity religious people, but did not say any names with that.
Backing down from the strong-minded and their questions, typical religious behavior.
I do the work of Satan, too, right?
1. Where huge matter and anti matter came from?
2. Does any explosion we know make matter organized? Explosion is producing only chaos.
This is nothing more than a trick question. Atheism is a rejection in the belief of all deities. In a sense, it's an anti-belief and you can't prove a belief is true or false - you can only prove that what the person choses to believe in is false.
As an example, I could believe aliens exist. However, whether aliens exist or not does not invalidate the fact that I believe in them. Something does not exist or fail to exist over belief. If this were not the case we would all be able to think anything out of existence.
Many people wrongly believe atheism is a lack of faith, when in fact it is a different form of faith. In the case of atheism, a person has faith that by not believing in deities nothing bad will happen to them - as to them, deities do not exist.
Next ... evolution is not a valid for or against God. This is like saying God can be proven or disproved by the theory of gravity. Whether it takes a microsecond or an eternity for something to genetically shift into something more complex and whether it's by an act of nature or an act of God ... it's still evolution.
Along the same lines ... whether you shoot a bullet across a long empty field or drop it on the floor, the fact that it will be eventually fall to the ground is locked by the laws of gravity. Even if you fire the bullet up into the air it will still strike the ground. Gravity always wins because it is an immutable law.
Now, I ask, what causes gravity? Is it God pushing everything down or is it a natural force that pulls things to the Earth which we don't yet understand? The source makes no difference as gravity still does what it does without care for how it happens.
And why do I mention gravity when people mention evolution? Because Isaac Newton was the father of gravity and he also helped father the theory of heliocentrism (the proven theory that the sun is in the center of our universe). The first theory made him a hero - the second made him a heretic (an enemy of the church).
And why was he considered a heretic for this? Here's several passages that were used to prove that heliocentricism was a fraud.
if Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” is a clear statement that God created, then Ecclesiastes 1:5, “The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose,” is just as clear a statement of geocentricity.
Interpreted literally, this means the sun goes around the Earth. Though anyone can read it today and know different (the second passage was just marking the perceived motion across the sky), it was accepted as fact before the time of Isaac Newton, and the church wanted nothing to do with anyone who would issue a claim that this passage was wrong, as it was a showing of God's power when he was able to make the sun move across the sky and by admitting the Earth was the one revolving around the sun the church would need to concede they had been wrong for thousands of years.
Also, heliocentricism went directly against the flat Earth theory that was already well accepted, as the Earth couldn't be revolving around the sun if it was flat, because then it was thought everyone would slide off as the Earth tilted on its axis.
Yes, we were that primitive in knowledge back then and still quite primitive today.
Now ... onto your questions, which I will answer, given the knowledge and theories that exist today
1. The space for the universe came from an infinite expansion caused by the clashing of two dimensional plates. This collision formed a bubble where the two plated met that spawned a new universe. For a brief moment there was infinite expansion, but then gravity took over to slow everything down below the astronomical speed limit of the speed of light.
2. Matter is subatomic particles that fit together to form larger groupings called atomic particles. These pieces of subatomic material are grouped together and bonded by their properties to particles that become only unbonded through this equation e=mc2. Therefore, only energy can destroy matter and only energy can create it. Thus, energy binds matter together which is how matter is formed.
3. Gravity is caused by the space-time curvature around large objects. The larger the object, the more gravitational force it can affect on other objects. So, why aren't pebbles of sand attracted to us as we walk across the beach? Good question. As the force of the Earth's gravity is much stronger than ours, we do not emit enough gravitational force to attract these pebbles of sand. Also, an object must be very sizable before it can bend space-time enough to have a gravitational affect on other objects. As for intertia - are you kidding me? Intertia is the transference of potential energy into kinetic energy. When you wind a rubber band on a rubber band plane you are storing potential energy. When you release the propeller the rubber band acts on it by transferring the potential energy into kenetic energy and moving the plane along.
What makes these laws of the universe to be considered laws is the fact that they are observed time after time operating in the same way without any deviation. In a sense, a law if a theory that has stood the test of time and cannot be disproved as too much proof is amassed for it to be dismissed.
A good example of a theory becoming a law would be to propose the theory that when you cut something in half you will always wind up with two halves.
Now, the average man cuts something once, witnesses the result, and is happy to consider this theory as proven. However, the scientist cuts many different objects in half from many different angles, looking for that one object or one slice that would make the theory untrue.
One can argue forever that there is an object that when cut in half becomes three objects or that there is a way to slice an object in half that produces three pieces; however, this is not science - this is a refusal to accept what has already been proven.
Many theories have been proven enough to become laws but will never be such because they lack the means to ever fully be proven without a doubt. This is why evolution is still a theory.
And what is it about evolution that can never be proven beyond a doubt? The fossil record.
You see, every single dig we have ever done has always shown that there are only primitive fossils in the lowest of layers and that more complex species always show up in layers above those. This should be proof enough that organisms evolved over time. However, every scientist recognizes one inherent flaw in this presumption ... what if we haven't dug far enough?
Now ... scientists are certain they have, but there is a possible skeleton waiting in the closet. What if life started twice on Earth? What if life started and evolved to complex forms and then all the complex life became extinct and life started anew. That wouldn't disprove evolution as it would have then happened twice, but scientists would then need to dig even deeper to find layers below where only primitive life existed and would then need to dig even deeper to assure there wasn't yet another time before where more advance life existed. At that rate, they might find themselves digging down to the mantle of the Earth.
So, while scientists can say they have found no fossils beyond a certain layer and that they have only found primitive life at the lowest layer of discovery, they can never say they have dug to the center of the Earth and can say with absolute certainty the fossil record doesn't go any deeper - nor need they. As explained earlier ... one only needs to show a progressive evolution from the simplest of creatures up through the most complex ones, which has already been done.
And so, I do hope I have answered all of your questions to your satisfaction and would surely like to know what all of this has to do with atheism. After all, refusal to believe in deities is not a matter of science ... it's a matter of disbelief ... and all the evolution theories, explanations of how things are created, and immutable laws will do nothing to change a man into having belief. As such, this appears to be a thread disavowing one's right to believe in nothing while forcing an opinion that something exists.
And I will ask what I ask of so many that believe ... Which gets you to heaven - making them believe or making yourself believe. Because the only reason I can believe that a person who believes would argue so fervently against anything that places those beliefs in doubt is because they have repressed doubts within.
Now, if you were here to carry souls upward then I should think your approach would be wrapped around the benefits of becoming a Christian rather than the detriments to not doing so. All animals seek rewards, and humans are no different. Power, wealth, rank, and love ... these are the things that motivate human beings. Dismissing others who think differently will convert no one, as dismissal of the ideas dismisses the people who make them.
One last note ... one of the people who has turned me 'for' religion in the past was Father Thomas Scala, a local catholic priest.
One day I saw him coming out of the movie theater and asked hium what he went to see. He surprised me when he said he went to see the most violent movie being presented, so I asked him how he could watch a movie like that ... his response ... 'Don't worry, I blessed all those who died.'
He noticed the puzzled look on my face and then said to me 'We are each only accountable for the evil we perform ourselves. To consider ourselves as accountable for everyone's sins is a burden only one man could carry and he already did - straight to the cross. Now, go home and worry not for others - pray for yourself.'
And oddly enough, that night I did.
Where did the stuff for the collision come from? What caused the collision? What collided? Do the layers date the fossils or do the fossils date the layers? If you're going to use the bible try context. You hardly ever see atheist denying hindu gods or the muslim god, mormon gods, kabbalah god. Just the bible god, thus proving he is the only true God. It's pretty simple. Even you didn't really answer my question I'll continue.
1. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
2. When, where, why, and how did life come from dead matter?
3. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
4. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
5. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
6. How can mutations (recombining of the genetic code) create any new, improved varieties? (Recombining English letters will never produce Chinese books.)
7. Natural selection only works with the genetic information available and tends only to keep a species stable. How would you explain the increasing complexity in the genetic code that must have occurred if evolution were true?
These are questions for scientists, not atheists.
Please don't consider my next answer to you as rude, but I spent half a day thoroughly researching your questions and providing solid fact-based answers.
As you always say how everyone skirts around your question and bashes your beliefs, I took the high road and did neither. In response you offer up enough questions to provide a week's worth of research.
If you want proof, do what I did ... look things up. I'm not here to perform research for others and this runaround I did earlier for you almost precluded me from finishing a hub today that I have been planning for a week.
Fact is ... you answer proof with more questions, so I will spend my future sessions writing hubs for me instead of hubs for you explaining that which you will then answer with more questions anyway.
I remember sticking up for you in the forums yesterday when somebody brutally attacked you (I'll point out the exact post if you want proof of that too), but considering how you just brushed off my response and asked more questions I'm beginning to understand why others aren't as willing to serve your requests as I have been.
I'm almost up to 50 hubs and 10,000 page hits, and I won't get there by continuing this debate with you. As such, I bid you adieu.
And before you say to the others here ... See, even Yoshi refuses to answer my questions ... consider the time and energy I just spent answering the ones you asked at the beginning of the thread. You could thank me for at least attempting to answer your questions, but instead you brush those answers aside and demand more proof.
I gotta get some sleep and then I intend to spend some time writing. Now, if you will please step aside ... I have a bridge to cross ..
Oh, very well done Spiderham. Excellent work.
This should get them. Congratulations on winning. How many of them have joined our church?
Proof positive of me. !
Welcome to my church Pam.
Unfortunately, there are no rules except "no god before me," and no gospel to spout and cause arguments with. I suspect this may not be the sort of God you were looking for, but as you rightly point out - if you cannot disprove me, I must exist.
You sound like all the people that claimed the earth was flat and the sun rotated around the earth because there was no "proof."
It's way more logical to have the universe evolve or billions and billions of years than having a magic wizard in the sky who just creates chaos in human life with famine, death, disease, handicaps, poverty and everything else on people, isn't it?
C'mon..think logically please.
Big Bang baby!
Scientists have already created life in labs using the simple building blocks of life like carbon, oxygen and amino acids.
After billions of years of evolving, Earth and many other unknown planets easily created life.
Big Bang? What went bang? What was there to go bang if the big bang created everything?
That's a physics question that you would need a background in physics to understand. It's pretty complex.
But the Big Bang doesn't disprove god or any other religion. In christian terms, that was god snapping his finger or however they want to rationalize it.
Problem is that they can only assemble life from preexisting parts. They still haven't produced something from nothing.
It doesn't but our knowledge of physics isn't quite there yet. Our technology's have come 1000% in the 1900's from the 10,000 years of humankind.
But 2000 through 2100 is supposed to eclipse the 1900s technology and knowledge by another 1000%.
It's pretty scary to think about how much we don't know yet.
But because we don't have the exact forumla yet doesn't mean there is a super-being somewhere. To me, thats the easy way out.
I like to keep questioning to figure out the real truth.
You lye baby.
By the way did scientists attempting create life using their material or God's?
Well, all space is actually filled with something. This might be one reason you don't understand it. Something exist between space and between that as well. Matter, dark matter, pure energy etc.. it's there and "nothing" does not exist.
Matter comes from the first few elements that existed during the time of the big bang, the elements were really friggin hot and as things expanded and cooled, the cooling was able to creation tiny particle matter and so on it goes.
The law of the Universe always existed. It existed before the thought of god. I think the burden of proof doesn't lie in proving or disproving god. The burden comes from trying to understand the "nature" of "god" that will never be understood.
In my mind (not to offend) explaining what god is, is like trying to explain what nothing is.
You can come up with a bunch of ways to explain it etc.. but no one can actually really comprehend what never did exist.
Sure, I known what "nothing" means in stupid human terms, it's empty, void, non existent, yet to us it implies that there it fills in something which in the "truest" sense of the term "nothing" is " " not even space.
Maybe we look in the wrong places for the answers, not saying the bible and not saying science are THE wrong places, just elsewhere. Or just think of it this way...
Everything always existed. Not to say humans always did, or sentience always did but everything ever needed, everything that is and can be always was and always will be.
This delusion of god can be lumped in the delusion of nothing.
So it is not to say that I don't believe in nothing but I do believe in something. Can you get your mind around it?
wow, i don't think i could've said things any better than how you just said it. i think you probably gave like the best opinion on this forum thus far.
Yes, superb explanation. Is interesting too, that in meditation going into the void or black space, that nothing is something also. And the more you stay in the nothingness it becomes a tangible experience, no longer nothing, but something. The mind grasps to find something, ignoring the blackness as if there is nothing there. The mind wants to fathom something within the blackness as if the blackness itself is not something to experience.
So you think the universe, matter and the laws are eternal? Most Cosmic evolutionist have that dropped assumption due to its expansion and Euclidean geometry. If there are laws there must be a law giver. Cause and effect.
Infinite cause(God) Finite effect(universe).
The moon is receding a few inches each year. Billions of years ago the moon would have been so close that the tides would have been much higher, eroding away the continents. Which make the idea of a infinite universe impossible.
Hovind, Kent E. Creation Seminar, Parts 1-7
You're slipping Misha - that was at least a 4 LOL moment
When the moon was that close the Earth was still coalescing from it's birth. By the time water arrived on Earth ...
Ya know what ... I'll just save my breath.
Um ... Sandra ... I love ya to death, but reading that just got me so confused I won't be right for a week. Then again, when am I not easily confused?
You cannot prove a negative, therefore this question is invalid.
So, I turn it around on you.
Please provide proof that god exists.
You cannot prove a negative. This question is invalid.
There, I got rid of the double talk and just plain invalidated your question. Are you happy?
A negative cannot exist without a positive, therefore that proves God exist. Try to define atheist without God.
That's not how logical fallacies work, sorry. Try again.
Aetheist - A rational, free-thinking, individual who does not believe in anothers explanation of reality just because they say it's true.
There, I did it.
Exactly. Unfortunately, the vast majority of religionists do not understand formal logic. Any kind of meaningful discussion with them is impossible.
To a degree, absolute truth is in the mind of the individual.
I can be loved by 1000s but if I am unaware of it, then my truth is one of being unloved. There are a number of things that must be felt before it can come to absolution.
So I agree that this question can not be proven.
until he is felt.
If ya don't turn the radio no, ya caint hear the music.
And of course ya gotta pay the light bill on time.
Negative is proved itself by positive. Tell positively how material and time became into existence without God. There was always God you came late just 200 years ago or less. But there is "not God" nobody prove that or nobody proved evolution. Only empty talk.
OK, you're not getting the whole logical fallacy thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_ … fallacy%29
The non-existence of something does not prove that it exists. If that were true, I could say - there is no proof that flying monkeys that shoot fire out their asses don't exist, so they exist!
The burden of proof does not lie on atheists, no matter what the bible says.
And it begins let the record show that a non-Christian brought up the bible. Stay on topic or you will be ignored and not because you think you're smarter.
With all respect. You do not understand the Bible at all.
I'm pretty sure gravity is caused by the rotation of the earth I'm not a scientist to I can't give you specifics...
Haha, no. Gravity is basically the attraction of matter towards other particles of matter. Picture a perfectly flat trampoline (space/time) with a bunch of marbles (matter) on it. If you dropped a watermelon (matter) in the middle they would all move towards the watermelon. If they were moving in one direction they would rotate around the watermelon. Obviously it's more complex than that, but that's the basic theory.
Yea, just talking. If you want to make an experiment, use you own melon, which you created. Then we will talk.
Actually we are sending satellites up by (I think) 2012, that will be able to measure gravity waves and confirm many facets of the superstring theory. What experiments are you doing to prove God's existence, or can you not think of any?
P.S. You're just talking too....
See this is what is wrong with atheists. I do not need proof I have a faith. This is faith which is not as described by unbeliever. It is based on existing substance but not seen (not on opinion). The faith and love (pillars) are enough for me to function well.
That's great for you, but the subject here is proof.
That is a logical fallacy and a false statement. You cannot prove God is not a sine wave, therefore proving that he is a sine wave.
Self promoting is annoying. I think your finally getting the point Atheism is a illogical. It can only be a negative. Being logical is positive
I wasn't self-promoting I was making a point. I'm not atheist, so I don't really care if it's logical or illogical. I can state with absolute certainty that the majority of your questions and statements are not logical at all.
You got it, because you cannot prove a negative to be positive. Congratulations you figured it out(seriously)
Yup, but the lack of "negative proof" doesn't prove the opposite.
That's wasn't my intention you started with that assumption not me.
Both atheism and religion are belief systems. There's only one way to know what happens when we die, and proving in favour of either side of the argument will render the enlightened hubber incapable of further typing...
...so, I think I'd rather wait a while yet!
Bulldust! Atheism or any other way of thinking that does not include any sky fairies or invisible entities that go around answering the prayers of religionists while ignoring the world plight is going to sit OK with me. lol
Who is ignoring what here, atheist look at a car, pencil, computer and can name a desgner, but they look in the mirror and and at the world around them and say, There is no Creator, It's lunacy.
It seems as though we agree on some things. The majority of church goers are really great people. For they do not worship the Church or the doctrine. Ya don't shoot the messenger nor do ya worship him. This is where some Churches fall short of their glory. Some churches want to be worshiped.
"Absolute truth implies that truth cannot be subject to one's own mind, but is rather established by an absolute and common Creator, therefore proving God's existence. If there is no absolute truth, it cannot be absolutely held true that God does not exist." unknown
1) You cannot quote something from an unknown source and pass it off as fact.
2) Yes, an absolute truth is a truth that cannot be subject to one's own mind. But no, it is not proof of the existence of a God. It cannot be used to prove anything.
3) An absolute truth does not 'imply' anything. An absolute truth is something that holds true universally. It is a philosophical term that has NOTHING to do with God.
4) It makes no logical sense whatsoever to ask to disprove God on the basis of the above quote. I'm not trying to be rude. I studied Logic. It just does not make sense.
Exactly, it's a logical fallacy. Keep in mind though that logic has no place in religion.
Team up always a handy game, How did logic and thought evolve? Where can it be found? Can you see it? But you claim you have it? Interesting.
Do you actually read my responses? It cannot be proved. It is a logical fallacy to ask someone to prove a negative exists.
Prove to me that flying unicorns that shoot lasers from their eyes don't exist. You can't.
What are you talking about?
Ok, so clearly you're not actually reading what I wrote. Your question doesn't make sense. Even if I believed in God it still wouldnt make sense.
Are you just asking atheists to disprove God? If you are, then please just say that.
So clearly you didn't read the original post. You're dogma is There is no God, now prove it. When you find that you can't move on.
I'll take that as a yes then.
You can't prove 'there is no God'. You can't prove the lack of something. It would be a logical impossibility to do so.
So you can't prove atheism is true. Finally one admits it.
Atheism in itself proves God exsitence because you cannot have a negative without a positive.
I do not believe the gods of the ancient Romans, Greeks, Aztecs Mayans, etc. existed. So does this mean they exist also, because we can't prove they do not?
So you still have not shown proof atheism is true or correct. Sorry, try again.
I wasn't trying to prove atheism was right. I was just pointing out that you'd written a load of rubbish. I don't care what you think about atheism. You're not going to suddenly make me realise the error of my ways and realise that I should have been believing in God all along (especially if that quote at the beginning is the standard that you argue at). I can tell you why I am an atheist (without being rude) if that's what you mean. I just thought that maybe you would want to try again with a stronger argument in favour of God because at the moment you are being laughed out of here.
Very good, congratulation.
Nobody can prove God existence or opposite. God is not material or time. He is outside of them. We do not have measuring yardstick to prove anything.
The truth is not matter of mind or being smart. The truth is Word of God and if one will find it he will be set free.
The Bible is awesome book. Never changes. God never changes. Everything we perceive changes and are not trustful. God promote only goodness. It is not my problem somebody do not like Him. It is nothing then negative propaganda.
Actually no...I don't believe in God...that is all. I am not part of any organized movement...
No way to prove that god does not exist that I know of.
I am pleased to see you finally accept the great Flying Spaghetti Monster!
Obviously discussion is not what is wanted in this post. Night Night.
YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS.
and don't bother trying the design argument. I will win that argument
What a stupid response, come on. That's not proof it's just words.
I'm coming in behind those who have expressed why they don't believe in God which I suppose would be a partial answer to your question as to their proof that atheism is true.
I've really avoided these topic forums because they are always diverted, always have attacks that enter into them and they are always seen as an opportunity for some people who always gravitate toward the "contest of wits". Their points would actually be more convincing if they left these aspects out of them.
Pr0metheus, who I'm trying to resist saying what age he looks to be, seems to have gained many of the answers to the universe. I'm a grandfather and don't even claim to have that many answers but I do see a basic logic that many people choose to avoid.
If one chooses not to believe in God which is a word that has been affected a great deal by religious thought, would also have to be the creator, the intelligent designer, the originator or life, they have to have something to replace that concept with. Now some respond to this by saying they don't worry about how it all began but if they don't, there are rare individuals indeed!
The replacement concept by non-believers in God is something in the thought-realm of a "big bang". In reality, when you follow that thought through, you have to then look at what it perpetuated, which would be a continued advancement forward, with incredibly-intricate, complex life forms. Not only that but also the proper atmosphere for them, the perfect environment, food sources, just the right distance from the sun, a moon that helps sustain marine life by regulation of ocean-tides, just the right gravitational pull, earth rotation for the required changing of seasons for life-cycles, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc............
All of this apparently, in the minds of those who reject belief in an intelligent-designer, supreme being, all transpired due to an evolutionary process but the process did all of these things simultaneously. This despite the fact that an accidental chance happening emergence of even the simplest life-form is mathematically, astronomically impossible, let alone the millions of things that all came together in perfect sync, regardless of the expanse of time that might be placed on it.
What it actually boils down-to in my view is a semantics-game in which everything attributable to evolution is a description of an intelligent-designer. Even natural selectivity cannot be described without reference made to "decision making type qualities" attributed to it. This includes statements such as evolution, through natural selection, having dropped a species or having continued one or that it made the necessary changes to, a particular life-form was in need-of etc, etc, etc...
They don't believe in God? Actually, yes they do, they're just calling him by a different name and doing everything in their power to make him as impersonal as possible. That's my opinion and my view of what is taking place with atheists.
That was a respectful reply Pr0metheus and I apologise if it offended in any way, that I referred to your age. That's my own son's age.
I'm glad you found a point of agreement in my post.
Good thread Pam.
Haha, no... sneakorocksolid gives me crap for my age all the time. I'm used to it.
Honestly, as long as some intelligent thought goes into a religious belief I have no problem with it. I myself believe in a god, just not the christian god.
My problem comes when people ask others to prove a negative, or something equally stupid.
I also have a problem with people who follow blindly. People blindly followed Napoleon and Hitler, and look what happened.
Atheists are not in fact the ones who claim to have all the answers. People who believe in god have all the answers ... God! I am quite happy not knowing.
If you argue from intelligent design your argument goes something like this: There is design in the world, it is intricate and complex and clearly couldn't have happened by chance. Therefore it must have a designer ... God.
My response to this is: Something that created a world that is intricate and complex must in itself be even more intricate and complex to have the ability to create it. Therefore there must be something that created God.
My second response is: Ok, let's assume I grant you that there is a higher being that created the world. What do we learn about this higher being? It is intricate and complex and created the world. Big woohoo! Why should I care whether he exists or not? What benefit do I gain from believing in him. How do you get from this higher being to your religious conception of God who is all loving, all knowing, all powerful, compassionate etc etc.
On a side note spiderpam, I would like to add that you wrote in your original post that you didn't want name calling, or people being rude to you etc etc. I am trying really really hard not to be rude and not to name call. You have not shown that same courtesy to anyone that has posted so far.
Only something Infinite can make something finite only something immaterial can make material, thus proving God must be uncreated and eternal, because if there was finite regression we would never get here. God put everything in motion. I experienced your rudeness first hand so please don’t play innocent now.
It seems most people agree with the idea that proving a negative cannot happen.
I can create a sandcastle (finite) and I am finite, therefore disproving your statement.
There must be an uncaused cause in the begining or you've never been able to build the sandcastle. Get it? I'm going to out on a limb and say no.
I wasn't rude to you. I just pointed out that your quote made no sense. And anyway, I said I was trying hard not to be rude. A little rudeness may have accidently slipped out and I apologise for that.
I have never experienced something infinite making something finite. And I think most religious people would deny that you can make something out of nothing (immaterial makes material).
Also, when I think of myself as Atheist, I think of it as denying the theist conception of God, as I said before, all knowing, loving, powerful etc. You have done nothing to prove that the person who created the universe is that God.
You assume I must be religious, is that some kind of atheist mantra? "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," that’s proof enough for me. Do you have an alternative besides “A dot or nothing exploded”
What's my religion? I have none. You assume too much. It's sad
Sure, it has nothing to do with any religion, especially not even close to one that is based on babble
This whole thread is just a figment of your imagination.
So you have no religion..... and it is sad others haven't seen this?
All you do is spout religion. What other source do you use for your beliefs outside the bible?
You are not making sense.
Seriously read my responses. I explain how the 'dot of nothing' exploded into something.
It's sad that somebody tells you something and you blindly believe it. Weakness incarnate.
Where did the stuff for the collision come from? What caused the collision? What collided? YOU DON"T KNOW! It's like opening a book and skipping chapter 1.
NEITHER DO YOU! But perhaps these extra-dimensional membranes that collided and created the big bang ARE god. They always have been and always will be. Maybe GOD is just the combined sum of all energy in the universe.
It's like saying 'Green Eggs and Ham' is more true than 'Where the Wild Things Are'.
The bible is not proof. It is filled with words of humans, and opinions. You cannot use it as proof.
I never used it as proof. I just gave you alternatives and explained why your logic and questions were flawed.
Yours are flawed you don't even have a foundation for your logic or your alternatives.
How so? Read 'The Fabric of The Cosmos' by Bryan Green, or 'Elegant Universe' by Michio Kaku, or 'The Universe in a Nutshell' by Steven Hawkings. There are reasons these men are considered some of the greatest minds of our times. I'm not spouting biblical bullshit, I'm stating well believed scientific theories.
"I know you are but what am I," is not a good retort. Try again.
You cannot prove that god exists, therefore proving that any religion that believes in god is illogical.
Do you not see the fallacies in your arguments?
"Absolute truth implies that truth cannot be subject to one's own mind, but is rather established by an absolute and common Creator, therefore proving God's existence. If there is no absolute truth, it cannot be absolutely held true that God does not exist." What are you doing?
Very true that Absolute truth does not involve the mind. So I'm not sure why you are using your mind to fathom it. If you consequently are unable to fathom truth beyond your mind, then your question is totally irrelevant and you have no way of understanding either absolute truth or God being that which is absolute truth. So you yourself know neither that atheism is valid or not. Is that absolutely clear?
This quote should be amended to include "It also cannot absolutely be held true that god exists."
That was not a response...
Why do you suggest I read your books written by men with opinions? To reiterate your nonsense.
Here some books for you:
God, Intelligent Design & Fine-Tuning by Michael J. Behe, T.D. Singh
"The evolution handbook" Vance Ferrell
"One small speck to man" Vij Sodera
"Evolution the fossils say no" Duane T. Gish:
"The Evolution of a creationist" Dr. Jobe Martin
"The Privileged Planet" Guillermo Gonzalez, Jay Wesley Richards
What are you doing here anyway? Is your next step atheism and you want to test the waters?
You just said you weren't religious. And now you're quoting the Bible (a religious book) to support your belief. I didn't assume you are religious, you just proved that you're religious. And thus my argument still stands.
I don't need a God to answer questions of creation I'm happy not knowing. I don't need to know how the world started and there's no reason why I shouldnt reject God in the same way that you would reject the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Devil as creators.
The bible is a religion? No, but atheism was declared one in 1961. Another FSM straw man, weak. You cannot prove a negative, positive, thus proving atheism is an illogical, untrue, wrong religion of nothing. PERIOD. Good night Jen.
No religion, you need an invisible fairy for that. I don't have one, the FSM has photos! Lets see your photos!
I find that you continue to talk like a "mystic" is that what you are?
You're attitude is a matter of fact, which is ridiculous because no facts support religion's mythic "god".
Again religious grouped belief, which also includes all the little people inside each group, has been dimissed as Mysticism.
Mysticism is define to be an ILLUSION!
Now, you want to talk about "heaven", it's another mythical place, created by Mysticism. Therefore, an illusion.
The EARTH evolved on it's own, without any help, other than the MOON which orbits and supports Humankind existence.
Should the MOON move off on it's own? Guess what? We are in serious trouble, because of science has already proven will happen, should that event happen.
So, again. I dimiss your "GOD" as an illusion.
You have no basis and this conversation is now at least over for me.
I'll admit that I haven't read most of this thread. But my gut reaction is that atheism is the belief that there is no higher power. And how can you prove that something doesn't exist? It's impossible.
Religion many centuries ago was deemed "mysticism".
Define "Mysticism"- is an illusion.
Therefore, logic can only reason religion to be an illusion.
No other assessment needed.
If you're interested in a cat fight? You can first get the knowledge you partially need to even have a chance, at a different forum- Can You Grasp Life and What Role You Play.
Pam- that was not a self-promote job- the messages on that board are too long to put here.
GOD doesn't exist.
End of story.
If that's your view, you should have no problem with how others perceive that creative force. Some call it Mother Nature but they are still recognizing the design aspect. You asked earlier to leave design and complexity of life out of it (not your exact words) but it simply can't be done when you're discussing the God-subject. Oh I suppose it can be done but would be leaving out an incredibly important factor... our existence and the existence of all other things.
I can't explain how something could be eternal (no beginning - no end) but if anything exists now, then something had to have always existed.
The fact we can't understand how a supreme being was not created, doesn't take away from the fact that things exist. We have to look for a predecessor-creator because we know we didn't create it. We also know things do not create their selves. If they did, they would be consciously aware of it. If cells advance their selves this too would require them to have this ability inherently-created into-them.
Take a look around you! Try using a microscope, what you deny is happening every second.Things are growing, breaking off, mutating and becoming something else all the time.
I only said about leaving creation out of it because it can never prove a religious God. All it can do is suggest A creator, and yes, like you said that could be any kind of creator. If someone wants to argue in favour of religion's God then they need more than just an argument from Design.
Only something Infinite can make something finite only something immaterial can make material, thus proving God must be uncreated and eternal, because if there was finite regression we would never get here. God put everything in motion. I experienced your rudeness first hand so please don’t play innocent now.
You want to explain how something immaterial can make something material?
Last time I checked, to build and/or construct, anything known to man- you must have independent free thought consciousness, which can only be found in Human beings.
Thus proving God must be uncreated and eternal, because if there was finite regression, we would never get here.
Are you sure you know what your talking about?
I believe there is a generalizing that 'sometimes' takes place when people refer to Christians who accept the Bible and believe what is written in it (76.5% of Americans). I think it is often thought that by my believing the Bible, its historical and spiritual aspects, that I'm placing God into a narrow box. Not so!
My belief is that the Bible is a record of God's dealings with the Hebrew people who became the Jewish Nation - Israel. Was he dealing only with the Jewish people and was he showing favoritism because he inspired them to pen-down their dealings with God. Absolutely not!
God was dealing with all people, all over the world and his choosing of the Jews, for messages to the rest of the world was because it was through that people that he planned to bless the rest of the world and did so. In one sense, this placed a burden on these people that no other people had to bare in the same way. They have been relentlessly persecuted from their beginning.
Let me throw another angle in with this. I believe we all recognize evil in the world. Some people would call it an evolved socially unacceptable behavior but it's deeper than that. People murder, rape, molest children etc... and this is by definition...evil. The semantics game can of course enter into this as well but evil does exist and that extremely eerie feeling that comes from watching a move about evil for example is there because it actually exists. Mass-murderers for example often express that they were driven relentlessly to act out their murders. Of course it can be attributed to mental illness but I believe it goes deeper than that.
People who loose a loved one suddenly or to a terminal disease for another example, feel a grief that goes way beyond a simple instinct. Love for someone can be tremendously powerful.
It may seem strange that I've mentioned these types of things but I'm trying to give an idea as to why people seek the deeper answers and try to connect with their creator if they believe he exists.
It absolutely is not simply a religious thing for many of us. Of course there are people who put on the religious face and attitude and I'm probably just as disgusted by that as anyone else is. At the same time I will not make what people do, cause me to pass that judgment onto God. I do believe he exists and I do believe he seeks relationship with us. Not a religious experience but a real one.
It is nice you have such strong faith but you can't force others to feel the same way as you do or ridicule them because they disagree with you.
All in all, the Bible is just a book...
Whose forcing anyone? It's always atheist who must insult Christians always. Just read any thread started by a Christian. The first negative response is always from a nonbeliever and it's always insulting.
a HISTORY BOOK purposely used by deceitful people who are looking to control or dominate society.
Religion is considered "Mysticism".
Mysticism is define as an illusion.
What more proof is needed.
I guess we can put this to an end.
Cagsil here again.
Let's attack one of the underlining concepts, people have belief in- "Who Created Existence" and "Why of the Universe" are ancient, mind-subverting gimmicks of positing invalid, intellectually untenable questions that have no basis in reality. That false-question maneuver has been used by theologians and other mystics for centuries. The gimmick works by taking an invalid or meaningless idea and then cloaking the idea with specious but profound-sounding phraseology. That phraseology is then used as an "intellectual" prop to advance false, irrational concepts or doctrines.
Consider, for example, the "Who Create Existence" and the "Why of the Universe" questions so often used by poets and theologians to advance the God or higher-power concept. On closer examination, one realizes the invalid questions such as "who made the universe" are meaningless and unprofound.
For that type of infinite-regression question(of who created the creator and so on back) answers nothing and is anti-intellectual. Such questions cannot or need not be answered once one realizes that existence exists.
On realizing that by nature existence simply exists, one then realizes that the "Who Created Existence" and "Why of the Universe" questions cannot or need never be answered because no causal explanations are needed for existence in the universe. Existence is axiomatic. It just exists, it always had and always will exist. Nothing created it and no causual explanation is needed or valid.
@ Jewels I was commenting to your statement. absolutely crystal clear that you were correct. I didn't know all that other stuff was coming down too.
I had been sitting here trying to think of something to say that simply put made as much sense as what you said.
I kept thinking though that they are giving each other well needed exercise. Sometimes ya learn stuff where ya least expect to, without realizing it till much later.
Want proof of Evolution?
Jesus' message when given to his followers, he helped them EVOLVED from "animal"(out of the darkness) reactionary guidance of nature in to "human"(into the light of heaven) consciousness, self-guidance.
When each one, reach enlightenment/consciousness, their minds opened up a new dimension to a new way of thinking for oneself.
Instead of being guided by Nature.
Genetic code can be affected by outside forces.
simple changes occur to your genetic code by having sex. No one knows how many other enviromental conditions can also efect this
Pam, why do you spend so much time proving something wrong that you don't care about? or to put it another way, proving something right that you already believe in?
Silly man. I think its a fair question. I mean, I know she has a family and is really busy. She reads a lot of books on the subject and tries to teach others about it. I'm just wondering if there is something more important or worthwhile to focus energy on?
It's late! I gotta run, I have a root canal tomorrow it'll be a relief after dealing with all this nonsense.
What do you mean? You want examples of other things someone can focus their time and energy on?
Out of all the religious or semi-religious texts I've read, the 'Valis' series by Philip K Dick makes the most sense... and he's completely insane.
I guess I just don't see why someone would be interested in reaffirming their beliefs to such an extent, and work so hard as disproving others. But hey, everyone's different. If it makes someone happy thats cool. As far as what to focus your energy on other than that, it totally depends on the person. I am one who hates to waste even a second. So I can't handle 5 hours of discussion with no progress.
Posting provides good breaks from music production. Helps my ears relax for a min or two.
Actually I watched you not once wasting hours trying to explain obvious things to dumb asses.
But progress was always made. They were just dumb asses who couldn't admit it. But you are right, I can be persistent as well. But I am also a multitasker. Right now watching a movie, writing a lab report, posting, and rubbing the dog's back with my foot
I agree with ya. I keep the window up and go back and forth between posts and lab reports But having a straight on conversation when the other person, no matter how obvious, ignores you and refuses to be open minded..... eh frustrating.
Hehe, he's not here tonight. Just me. We hang out tomorrow night I'm making veggie chili, we just had a cold front come through its a brisk 60* right now
There is a Supreme being or God if you prefer that nomenclature; how do you know it is so...I tell you it is because you exist....you know deep within yourselves...even though you play the conscious game of deniers / scoffers...to numb whatever conscience you have or to make pretense of intelligence...before the world and people around you to feel free...of any authority greater than yourselves...to express anger...over hidden pains...pains of grief or of the child who insists on being spoiled...God will not appear to me...is your inner cry ! Your every breath is prima facie evidence...ha it is only a fool who say I came out of NOTHING...all things came from nothing ...LOL...this is insanity...a mild form of adolescent insanity ! Eat your breakfast, MMMMMM so good all of the millions of tastes and sensation that came from nothing, nowhere, noplace, no-one...all from ZERO ....LOL..Thank Nothing for the food you eat and the good tastes of it !
hrmm...I don't understand everyone's obsession over God vs. No God! Both have great points and both cannot prove whether or not God exists. It's an endless argument that will just go round and round and round! Though, it does provide some quality entertainment!
Read my hub and get an idea of what really matters=)
<snipped - no links in the forums, please>
Wow Yoshi, what a great post and I'm impressed you did all that research. I think in the future when people start another atheism/evolution thread all we have to do is link to that post and all will be answered
Nothing more to be said in this forum...
Everybody has different beliefs and different thoughts on things. This is a good thing as it is what makes our world such a diverse and interesting place. So why don't we quit with the trying to force people to believe in what we believe? As nobody can prove that God does or doesn't exist, it just becomes an endless cycle of bickering. Some people believe in God, some people don't - end of!
It's rarely that simple.
You overlook the potential danger that believers carry.
As far as I'm aware, there has never been an atheist who strapped a large bomb to his chest then blew himself up in a crowded market, all in the name of atheism! Atheists have evolved beyond the point of such primitive actions. The religious cannot evolve, because evolving means they have to deconstruct all that they know. This would be too painful for them.
Another atheist in need of a history lesson. Stalin, killed millions, Pol pot killed millions, High School Shooters Columbine and Kinkle, Wanted to help evolution and help natural selection by killing fellow schoolmates. The current Reign in China against Christians is pretty primitive. Hitler tried to rid the world of God all together, by killing Jews and Christians.
Dear oh dear.
There is no arguing with this level of desperation, I will give you that.
Hitler's aim was to the jews. And it had nothing to do with religion, but german economics. Primarily. This was the hidden purpose behind all that esoteric babble.
If you have to bring Hitler up. Hitler was brought up as a Christian...
Let's not bring up how many people were tortured and killed during the Spanish Inquisition and the various reformations in Europe. Not to mention the number of innocent people killed during the crusades and the various witch hunts.
Godwins Law means this debate is over.
Why would Christian want rid the world of God? Hilter was raised Catholic dropped that real fast. Do the math atheism has killed way more.
The Spanish Inquisition had no jurisdiction over professing Jews, Muslims or atheists and executed fewer people on an annual basis than the state of Texas
More than 93 percent of all the wars in human history had no relation to religion
Pleeze beleeb in jeebus. We kill waaay less people than the catherliks!
Hitler attacked the Jews...he did not attack other faiths... and I will not be debating this anymore. As I said, Godwins Law makes this debate null and void
Godwins law is meaningless. The real reason you wont debate is because you are wrong.
There is no debate here. Repeatedly telling people they are wrong with no reason is not debate...
Ok, The reason you are wrong is because Stalin,Hitler,pol pot, killed many more people than any Christians ever have. They were all atheists its just that simple.
Is this supposed to be an argument in favor of believing in the Christian god?
Just not getting it. Hitler (Catholic) killed x people, therefore christians kill less people than atheists, therefore you should believe this garbage?
Say it again - maybe I missed it in the translation.
Yes, BUT, people on Hubpages forum don't like SIMPLE. It has to be DEEP, and COMPLICATED, don'tchanow?
These all happened because people blindly followed a leader (which is exactly what happens in religion).
Everyone please stop replying to this thread and let it drop.
You can't teach a religious to think rationally. I tried for 10 pages worth of posts and didn't even make a dent in the naivety.
I would be glad for you to prove to me that Evolution is the cause of all there is in the world. To claim that atheists are rational and believers are irrational is a favorite tactic and slight of hand while you figure the next quip to use.
Read the first 10 pages of this topic, kthxbai.
I seriously can't believe that people don't believe in evolution.
Just goes to show everyone how much work our educational system needs....
circles and more circles !
I'm nauseated !
you will never reach to any conclusion
I think a fire extinguisher would have been more appropriate.
Remember - if you cannot disprove it - it must be true.
@yoshi97- Atheism is a illogical. It can only be a negative. Being logical is positive. You cannot prove a negative to be anything that’s why the very idea of being a atheist means nothing, but if that were the case no true atheist would claim absolute knowledge of No God. Get it. More to the point if you can't use evolution as proof for or against God why did you try an answer the questions I was trying to make the point that atheist do try and you evolution to disprove God. All your answers have no base the universe in not eternal(research that). It had a beginning and when evolutionist figure that out you’ll still have a theory with a lot of holes(hence the other questions I asked) I do research too, but on both sides that why I know evolution is a lie. Maybe all your research will uncover that truth.
No ... you do not do research ... You bait non-believers with questions about evolution and they get angry because the original theory of evolution has nothing to do with religion. Pope John Paul II said it, and I agree with him, as he was just recently the highest man on the catholic ladder.
Also, I believe in God, and the fact that evolution exists does nothing to taint my beliefs, so why does it cause such disdain for you?
The problem I have with this rhetoric is that you are baiting people into a senseless argument. Evolution is not an atheist belief unless Pope John Paul II was an atheist. And considering he was a well loved man (by many, including myself) if you are even considering on stating that Poe John Paul II was an atheist for believing in evolution then I chose not to hear more of what you have to say.
Believer to believer ... I think you believe in arguing with non-believers more then you do in God. Perhaps you feel by forcing the non-believers to believe even less you can insure your way into heaven by being the only one left willing to enter. Argumentists such as yourself are the number one reason given for people turning away from the church.
Have you ever researched any Creation Science, Kent Hovind, Ken Ham, Answers in Genesis, Kobe Martin, Creation Institute.
Or read any book against evolution
The evolution handbook Vance Ferrell
One small speck to man Vij Sodera
Evolution the fossils says no Duane T. Gish:
The Evolution of a creationist Dr. Jobe Martin's
The Privileged Planet Guillermo Gonzalez, Jay Wesley Richard
Just because you were indoctrinated with evolution does not make it true The Pope worshipped idols, prayed to Mary, adopted so many pagan practices it would blow your mind. Those are not Christian actions. I'm Non-denominational so what Catholics say does not affect me I follow no man I follow God. I'm an apologist, we are calling to defend to faith and to answers question regarding the faith we hold.
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
When you've research both sides then come on back.
Btw Evolution is a religion you’re an apologist for it. If it were a fact you wouldn’t be here trying and failing to defend it.
The pope is a pagan??? Ya know what Pam ... you FINALLY proved evolution to be a lie with that statement.
Everyone? Pack it up! Evolution is a lie. I offer as proof one being who has failed to evolve.
Hail creationism, and despair over the pagan pope ...
My time is better spent writing hubs then allowing one believer to trash the religion of another believer.
For your next thread Pam I might recommend 'Is the pope really a pagan?' Then you can alienate what few people were still pushing for you to win out against the non-believers.
In battle ... one never turns on his own troops ... Good luck Pam, as I was willing to stand beside you on the existence of God (which to date I have never denied), but I will not allow you to call a high church figure a pagan and have my name uttered beside yours.
The brave stand alone ... be brave ...
And let's not forget the only true atheist
Who spent the last 11 years of his life insane, a man who hated the bible and Christian God spent his last 11 years begging his family to read him bible verses. He walked the path of atheism to the bitter end a black hole of utter nothing.
So how come so many Christians - a lot more than atheists - end up in jail?
A christian is 15 times more likely to go to jail than an atheist.
Lack of education perchance?
No Mark the athiests just afford better lawyers
world smart ,spiritually in debt
Ah - I see - another Christian not prepared to respect a certain person's wishes to remain anonymous after the amount of hate mail from believers in his in box became too much for him.
Odd that , All of the so-called loving Christians who refuse to respect his wishes all hide behind lying user names.
Just goes to prove exactly what sort of person they are really. Thanks for validating that.
I guess a lack of education and respect for others will do that to ya.
Atheists are 3.84 times more likely to be imprisoned than Christians
In the twentieth century, atheistic regimes killed three times more people in peacetime than those killed in all the wars and individual crimes combined
Source The Irrational Atheist by Vox Day
Why do atheist commit suicide more than any other religious group? atheists were much more likely to commit suicide according to Institute for Suicide Research and Prevention
TRUE ATHEISTS DON'T HATE THE BIBLE.
THEY CAN'T BE BOTHERED WITH IT
I MYSELF LIKE A LOT OF THINGS IN THERE.
Pam, there is an elegant beauty in your desperation. This gives me hope. Clinging to your misguided beliefs and falsehoods with such passion means you are at the point of meltdown. Logic and rational thought must be repeatedly presented to faith-heads so that eventually a seed of logic is sewn deep within their unconsious mind. Repeated and forceful presentation of facts, hard data, rational argument & compelling scientific evidence will help nurture the seed.
Pam, give in. Your battle is lost. De-clothe yourself of religious ideolgy and become a normal, rational person like the rest of us... it will make you feel much better.
Pam, you're naked without your beliefs. A mere shell. Non believers are presenting you with an alternate way of being... of existing. If you're not interested and are happy to remain marooned within your own ignorance, that's fine. But is it the non-believers loss? Unlikely... you know, we probably care very little.
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