As a Christian, tell us who you give to, what you work you have been involved in the community or at church and tell us why. What has God been teaching you about these things lately?
For me, it's a combination of faith and works not just works on its own. And work could be anything from voluntary work, charity work,donating,buying things from organisations like cancer research but even the little things like, helping someone take their shopping to their car, helping someone lift their heavy suitcase up some stairs. I think little things are just as important, whether someone believes in God or not.
Yes, whether one believes in God or not, it is just as important. I would like to hear a lot more from Christians because it is about faith and works.
I believe it is a combination of faith and works because we need to believe in the existence of God and Jesus Christ or even the belief in all that is good.
Then we put our faith into action by doing the 'work'. We exercise that belief in showing love for our fellow man.
[I can see your heart in the things you do and I pray that more of us have a heart more like yours]
Thanks *I'm blushing* I like helping but I'm NOT perfect or a full blown saint I still make mistakes and I think because we all make mistakes and sin that's where faith steps in even more, it helps us understand forgiveness and mercy
are you not interested in the faith and works of other religious people? or is this forum meant only for Christians?
What about as an atheist? We can be quite giving you know.
I believe that with my whole heart. And, I do not mean to discriminate against anyone, it is just that as Christians we are called to specifically make a difference and I would like to hear from other Christians how they are doing.
Thank you for sharing. There is no harm though in you becoming a Christian, it is not as if being an atheist is irreversible!
The Word of God says that faith without works is dead. Our works do not get us to heaven. Only the Lord Jesus Christs finished work on the cross. For example if I were to say that I was starving to death and I believe that there is food in the fridge, but I never looked inside to check. Then it's obvious that I really don't believe that's there food in the fridge. I know that is a horrible example, but it's the only one I can think of at this time.
I don't consider myself a true 'Christian' though I do profoundly believe in God and the message that Christ gave us. I really just wanted a reason to post this to you.
I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU...
because You, just yesterday, followed the teaching of Christ. You touched me, and I wanted to thank you for that. Mikel
you make me want to go to mass. which i will because it is the holidays and something has been pulling me there for a long time now but i keep ignoring it. which is why i love St. Mary's Basilica. anyone, believer or not, can walk in there and meditate quietly, unmolested. i still refer to the church as "God's house". not those sanitized fluorescent-lit buildings on every street corner in America. but these real, old churches with the stained glass and statues of The Blessed Virgin, and the mahogany pews inside and the huge bell towers outside, chiming at the hour.
i have no idea where any of that came from but i am going to run with it. ciao for now.
I work the nursery, the rummage sales, every single activity I can, and my husband is the Sunday School teacher and a learning deacon. We learn a lot about how to treat others, and if everyone lived like the people in our church do, the world would be a better place.
Works has absolutley nothing to do with it. We can`t be that perfect, or do enough to plaese our Lord, so stop trying. As christians we are saved by faith and faith alone. Do you believe that Christ died for your sins? do you accept Christ as your savior? This is It!! It`s based on the condition of our hearts, not our works. No one can work their way into heaven based on what they do!!! it dosent work that way .Do you really believe, is the question.
Matthew 16 : 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Yeah we are saved by the Grace of God. Faith without works is dead (James 2).
I sponsor a foster child from India, give to the Covenant House sometimes which is a youth homeless shelter and support my church's charities. Every little bit helps.
Good question donnaisabella.
Amen,let the word of God speak for itself. Thanks for sharing.
As you wish!
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Better have the right god then!
Thanks for your contribution John. True, no one can be saved by works. As you said, stop trying to do that. However, as saved children of God our faith is made evident by our works, that is why Jesus tells us to take care of His sheep, to feed and to love them. This is the kind of works I am looking for. How are you showing your faith? We know you are saved but how will the world know that? Remember we are ambassadors until Christ comes, we are His body that should show forth the praises of Him who has called us out of the Kingdom of darkness into His marvellous light. I would like to know what is happening in the lives of my fellow Christians in relation to their faith and works.
We are involved in service projects for those that need help. We tithe and donate to projects we feel are worthy and we are helping a family with their Christmas.
Good onyer sneak!
Religious loony that you are, you somehow remain a good bloke!
Seriously, our city would be sunk without the work of the churches here. We have a mass of things to be grateful for.Funny thing is I have never heard any of these people preach. They are just good people and they would be doing good no matter what they believed.
My son who is now twenty was a chorister in Melbourne's Anglican church choir for 5 years. He is adopted and born to an atheist family in China.
When he left, the church head gave him a book she thought he may like to read, written by a devout atheist. She is typical of the doers I know in the church. I could go on. They all know I think their religion is ridiculous and my son never hid what he believed. many of us still see each other at outings often, all these years later.Have a great Christmas and spoil them kids!
Thanks for sharing. It is so amazing how many creative and blessed ways God's children are being led to be the hands and feet of our Lord. I thank God for you and may you prosper spiritually too even as you do His work.
God has blessed me and my wife greatly,
I dont want to list the things my wife and I do, but through our Faith we have learned a few lessons, the most important one is you can never out give God, with anything, being money, time, or whatever it is...
to give you an example, we gave an extra 50 bucks to the youth group at our church, the next day I won a raffle from the high school my daughter attends... it was $1000.00...
because of this winfall we were able to buy enough socks and underwear that every man at the local rescue mission will get a set for Christmas... nearly 200 men stay there nightly...
NWe were also able to give a few giftcards to the womens center that helps battered women start their lives over...
Now I am not saying everytime my wife and I give we get some lottery winfall, but the blessings keep coming....
If we dont receive our full rewards from God here on earth my family knows that we will in Heaven...
I know many people think we are crazy, but we follow our beliefs not try to impress or gain the approval of others...
Of our time we do SUnday School, I do boys basketball, mens retreats, prayer groups, and ride with the Christian Motorcycle Assoc on as many charity events and witnessing ralleys as my family can....
We are hoping before long to start doing mission trips to South America and Russia....
So for me and my family we will continue to follow the Lord no matter where he leads us, we will hold fast through any storm, and bless his name through the calm...
Lord today I am yours, use me as you may
Lord today I am yours, use me as you may;
I can see your heart and feel the love of my master in you my brother. I am so blessed to hear your testimony. It is the encouragement I believe we all need to keep running the race of faith, evidenced by our works.
There is a sermon in your short message and thank you so very much for taking time to share it. I will keep you and your family in my prayers. How many things will the master not do with people who are so surrendered to Him? The prayer of surrender comes from those who have yielded themselves completely to Jesus, they know Him intimately and trust Him wholeheartedly. May His love continue to shine in you, your family, your ministry and the many people you touch.
You truly are blessed by your god.
The thousands of children who die daily of starvation also think you are truly blessed by your god.
Amen to that.
This is the atheistic double standard. You believe in evolution which by definition means survival of the fittest, violence against the weak etc. So by what standard do you attest the death and starvation of these people to be wrong? You're have to borrow from Christianity to try and refuted it. You have to sit on God’s lap to slap him. At least try to be consistent.
You have to sit on God's lap to slap him. Hahaha, made me laugh after all even if it is a serious topic!
Can you show me that definition where it states "violence against the weak" or did you make that up yourself?
YOUR standards, of course.
I can spit in your gods eye from anywhere in the universe and hit it dead square (kicking him in his 'happy sack' is more fun, though)
No, but I do blame religion for what it's done to you.
He is unable to understand the scriptures properly and warps it , the religion is really not to blame.There are many who speak in the name of god and have absolutely no idea what god is or who they are .
I understand scriptures better than you, so why don't you just shut up?
I wonder if you ever try to listen to what you say or write.
Simple things like "the kingdom of go is within you" "I tell ye you are all gods" Jesus seems too difficult for you to understand.
Ranked over the Bibles off course such people don't think like you do.
Ha you call getting enlightened and then dedicating ones energy writing on god , getting ranked over Bibles a sin?
You are a fanatical nut case.
Bragging about it is. Even if it is ranked over Bibles, that is not the point. You made claims to be god, yet your very words condemn you and prove that you are not who you say you are.
Not a point ranked over the Bible, how many people do you know who are?
Can you write and get ranked over the Bible?
Do you think its something easy ?
One doesn't need to know god to write such a book?
Do you think your entire church all the people in it,could write a book together and get ranked over the Bible, forget just you?
If I am a liar then so was Jesus.
Why do you still carry on?
Where do these rankings exist? I have asked you before and you didn't provide any link.
More to the point, if you are so enlightened why do you feel the need to brag all the time?
You do not present yourself very well as a spiritual expert.
So now you are Jesus? I was accused of that before by some people on HubPages. Shall I say what I was told--"Get thee behind me Satan."
Most of those Christians do not realize how their words hurt others instead of help them. Be careful what you say and how you use those preciaous scriptures.
Presuming that SirDent is a spirit filled believer, then he does have the capacity to forgive...
22 And when He (Jesus) had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
and.... "Get thee behind me Satan." was said also to Peter, and he went on to great things, so it's not akin to calling you Satan, just that sometimes people allow themselves to do Satan's work for him, which is what Peter was doing when Jesus told him that.
Who is at fault when you mess up? Who taught you how to lie when you were a small child, etc. . . ?
No, but I do blame your religion for destroying your ability to think.
(Q) are you doing anything to alleviate the thousands of children who die daily of starvation?
Helping others and giving to the community does not necessarily dictate that God is involved, it may in your case but not for all of us so I think you would get far better post in this thread if the two were separated.
However there has already been 3 threads on what we are doing to help others during the holidays or at this time of year.
Thank you, just my opinion.
I agree, anyone could help anyone whether they believe in God or not. For me, from the Christian point of view it's a mix of faith and works, but taking the whole world into account-faith and works are essentially separated.
I'm a believer in God and while I do have faith and do 'works', some of the things I do, are not always down to my belief in God, I'm just nice like that....lol
If you get what I mean some people can be nice and good sans faith so I guess I agree with you combining the two could be hindering the number of posts this thread could get, but I think that depends on the target posters. *shrugs shoulders*
Your opinion is most welcome because this is a public forum. I do not mean to be discriminatory; the topic of this forum was directed to Christians so we could challenge one another. Sometimes we need to understand why we do what we do. I know of a lot of people who are not Christians who are doing great and wonderful things. I applaud them.
One has to have faith in what he about to do and then he has to follow through to make it happen and that is the works. One cannot have no faith in what he is going to do without the works and if there is no fatih then there most likely will not be works.
We are saved by Faith, but rewarded for works.
I am part of the praise and worship group at my homechurch. We have fed people and given clothes away. We are always trying to do something for the community.
Personally I give to the Salvation Army, I have helped old people at the supermarket before. There are a lot of things that are too numerous to mention here.
We are save by Faith, but rewarded for works. Amen to that!
Thank God for all that you are doing. The goodness of what most people are sharing on here is that many of us (hopefully), who are at a loss what to do will realize that there are so many ways we can serve God and worship Him with the works of our hands or flesh.
Thanks for sharing.
Seems you're talking in cross purposes. You say your works are for the community but you're only doing it to get rewards from your god. You do the works for your own selfish purposes.
As a Christian I've learned that you don't live by works alone. It takes a long time to develop faith in the Lord. We're so used to handling things ourselves that we leave God out of most that we do.
Working two jobs my husband and I don't get to church as much as we use to so I give money and material items to several charities. I study my Bible and anything on faith growth and spread the word when I can.
I feel you my sister. I feel your heart's desire too. As you said "we are so used to handling things ourselves that we leave God out of most that we do." It is best to always remind ourselves even when things get a little crazy what God may be saying in the circumstances.
May God grant you and your husband the wonderful opportunity of meeting with fellow believers as much as possible so that you may be refreshed by the living fellowship of the Saints. All these things we do will eventually pass away, only what we have done for the Lord will remain, that keeps me on my knees seeking to know His will.
Thanks for sharing.
Hey Mike That is so great thax.The world dont get that enough.
Works are the byproduct of faith - a faith without works is an empty faith. Works do not necessarily lead to one having faith, but a strong, legitimate faith should be reflected in one's actions. This does not mean one must go on missionary trips and serve food at homeless shelters - though those are both good things - but it does means living as Christ instructed us to live: with an "others-centered" focus. If your actions - your works - are not consistent with the faith you claim to have, then you need to stop and reevaluate if your faith is something "authentic" - or merely cultural.
Amen! I just loved that. 'Preach the word, if possible, use words!" (C.S. Lewis, I believe)
Thank you so much for your contribution, it ministered to me in ways you will never know are possible. Be blessed,live your faith and teach it to all of us,as many as you possibly can or as many as God leads you to.
Do you blame God for other shortcomings that have brought on such events as natural disasters? Do you blame Satan when someone gets an incurrable disease?
I believe in the sovereignty of God = nothng catches God by surprise. As a Christian I am going through what many might call a trial that would shake my faith if I did not know my God as I know Him today. God exists in light, but He is also there in the deepest darkness.
This is a topic on its own so I should limit my comment to this even if I know it may just raise another storm. But, to tell you the truth, God is there in the storm too, to calm it. Amen.
We are justified BY FAITH ALONE. But faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by works.
Therefore, no one should regard themselves as having saving faith, unless the evidence of works is there.
This summarizes the Catholic and Reformed views on justification:
Catholic: Faith + Works -> Justification
Reformed: Faith -> Justification + works
Hey that equation has made me curious, I should find out more about it.
Actually we are not justified or saved by what we do but by God's grace as both Ephesians 2:8 and Acts 15:11 say.
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;"
Acts 15:11 "But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also."
But we need to have faith and do good works.
The debate between faith and works started when Martin Luther placed James in the back of his Bible unnumbered. The book of James is where it says "faith without works is dead", in chapter 2. James was placed back in the proper order 80 years later <snipped - no promotional links to your Hubs in the Forums>).
Catholics and some other denominations do not follow the precept of once saved always saved. There are some historical figures that can show this, Judas Iscariot being one of them. Both Matthew 10:22 and 2 Thessalonians 2 also show this.
Matthew 10:22 "And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved."
2 Thessalonians 2:14 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle."
Look carefully at Ephesians 2:8, which you quoted already:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"
Notice you are saved by GRACE, but the mechanism of receiving that grace is through faith. And then he says "THIS" is not your own doing. What is the antecedent for "THIS"? According to the grammatical structure in the original Greek, the antecedent of "THIS" is "FAITH". Therefore, we may conclude that even FAITH is granted to us as a gift. You don't even EARN your faith; it is given to an undeserving sinner. Therefore, we can rid any merit for receiving God's grace - even the seemingly virtuous act of believing.
If you are required to maintain your good deeds and faith in your own strength to attain salvation, you're back at square one trying to fulfill the covenant of works in the Old Testament. The New Testament covenant of grace is so beautiful because Christ does it all for us. And God chooses who he will grant faith and thus who he will save by his sovereign grace. In this way, some receive mercy, and the others receive justice. No one receives injustice. (See also Romans 9)
So, be careful when you say "We need to have faith and do good works." If you're saying we "need" it in the sense of it being a prerequisite of salvation, your theology is not Reformed at all. That was exactly what the Reformers were protesting over and against Rome.
Having faith and good works is EVIDENCE that you are born of the Spirit, which is an act of God alone. Your regeneration precedes and CAUSES faith and good works. Your faith and good works does not CAUSE your regeneration (See John 3). Thus, James is essentially saying to his audience: Do not REGARD yourselves as having true faith unless good works accompanies it. A true regenerate soul necessarily produces faith AND good works.
Theophany, Thanks for the input, lets have another forum for this, I would really love for us to talk a little more about this.
It would be quite a sad state of affairs if believers only did good things because they wanted to attain salvation. Isn't that rather selfish?
And, then they have the nerve to accuse atheists of not having any god given morals and ethics, and that we should all be running around drinking blood and eating babies for breakfast. Yet, atheists do a lot of good things for others and are not looking for salvation. They simply want to help their fellow man.
At last some uplifting input! Thank God. I have a lot of interest in this subject not because I doubt how we are saved but because of the divergent views there are in Christianity.
what is the requirement for calling oneself a christian?
get a membership to a christian church and pay tithes is one way.
another way would be to study closely the principles laid down by Jesus Christ in the Bible (and other select works) and attempt to channel his sense of truth and just action.
another way is to buy a copy of the bible, never read it, but tell everyone else they are wrong.
I fit #2. I have studied the bible for many years. I have an understanding of the principles and believe the truth of christ is an inherent truth in all individuals.
Am I christian?
i would say you are. it is not impossible to hold several religions at once. like a martial artist, one would be a fool to take one art as truth. part of you is Christian if what you say is true.
or, was Jesus Christ simply a good person without a religion?
I agree but just joining a church is NOT being a Christian, it is being a Churchian. Church tells them what the Bible says, but they never read the bible for themselves. They are told what the scriptures are supposed to mean by the Churches doctrines and how they are so full of sin that they MUST go to chruch to get saved. That is NOT what Jesus taught in that Bible. They wil use the words only for their own purpose and not for how it reads as the whole paragraph for the people's of that time period. Their purpose is to keep their clergy and parishioners in the dark abut such things as mdical and scientific advancements. That is a silly guilt trip. Jesus also did NOT teach that if you can read the bible for yourself and other books of that time.
Jesus didn't write the bible
I am sure you could see the point of my questions Lady Guinevere. I have read the bible countless times. I find it a very easy task to baffle supposed experts.
The church is anti-christ. I.e. Christ was against the church.
Yes he was. It also states in that Bible that the Bible was inspired by Satan too--in revelations as it was pointed out to be on one of the hubs I responded too--or was it a forum--no matter--it was pointed out to me when I asked if Satan could have written that Bible.
according to your definition I am a christian.
Does being christian mean I hold religion?
We must remember that being a Christ-follower is not merely knowing the truths of Scripture or simply believing the truth claims of Jesus. Guess what? Even the demons acknowledge the truth claims of Jesus. They know who he is - probably more certainly than some of us!
The difference here is: Do you CHERISH Christ? Do you TRUST on Him to save you from your sins? Do you LOVE him the way he loved you and gave his life for you? From the heart of a truly regenerate Christian, the answer to all 3 questions is a resounding "YES!" The unbeliever, though having a thorough knowledge of Scripture and the truth claims of Jesus, would say "no".
And how well do you know the scriptures you base your belief on Theo?
As a reference to God, the bible is nothing but a sick and disturbed merry go round.
There are many great passages in the Holy Bible which make up its essence.
You have some big words but you space a lot of hot air between them. I am still waiting for proof to convince me you are anything but a fraud.
You either a) do not have the capacity to realise you misinterpreted my bible reference or b) have barely enough capacity to realise the truth of my statement and reply with more of the same rather than engage in intellectual debate (which you may or may not be capable of, I am yet to see any proof).
Write a better book, put all your intellect down on paper.
I write better books to wipe my arse with
Great so your book should join my book in the top 10 books soon.
Top 10 where, NY Times?
Don't you get it. I would never gauge the quality of my writing against yours. If bettering you was the only task, I would surely forget writing altogether.
Well Mo's book seems to be called Ponder Awhile and is an ebook download for $1.50, which takes up 72kb of disc space.
all the below rank higher in sales than his book:
1. $79.95 The Merck Manual,
2. $29.95 Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 7th edition
3. $13.95 Spanish-English Dictionary
4. $26.95 Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 11th Edition
5. $16.00 A Dictionary of Nursing
6. $14.95 LDS - Mormon Scriptures, History, Biography.
I saw no mention of his book other than the page view offering it for sale.
Dis you write the sales page Mo? - or was it reviewed by someone else?
I would not normally research this sort of stuff, but the constant reference about how big his book is and how well respected it is, makes it necessary to explore the claims.
So how do you want to have an intellectual debate?
I am certain we have been here before.
I am not holding my breath, lets leave it there. You are no match for me. Go write another bestseller.
Its my job to write and share god knowledge, the reason I am here on this planet right now.Do you believe you have a purpose?
My beliefs are clearly not important to you. Why would I answer your ridiculous question?
You don't want to state anything ? Intellectual debate ?
Each time I have encountered you on the forums, the only attitude I have seen from you is one of shameless self promotion. You have no room for outside opinion, you may as well be god. I have previously tried to have a discussion with you about enlightenment and you refuse to accept that there is any understanding outside of yours. Enlightenment is what you say it is, right? Another example, you claim that all spiritualist books include mentioning of The Light. I disagreed. Obviously, you a right. You are always right because you are a top 10 author, right?
Intellectual debate? Give me some reason to believe it is possible.
The Bible, Quran, Bhagwat Gita, Zend Avesta , Guru Granth Sahib all mention the Light.All enlightened ones mention the light.
Never read about the Light in these holy books? Enlightenment is the same for all.
Have you read about the Light in these books or not ?Try continuing the debate.
Do you know what I refer to when I say the Age of Reason?
So you believe there is no spiritual light or divinity present in this universe and all the prophets were just lying.? I am a religious philosopher in case you didnt know.
lack of knowledge on your path doesn't mean what I say is incorrect.
Start meditating and reading,gain some knowledge and then we will be able to have an intellectual debate.
Get your head out of your backside, that would be the first step.
I can also abuse you.I am interested in a debate and not this bull shit.
We were never debating.
You want a debate, fine. Choose a topic. We obviously read different material.
You can keep flexing if you like or we can discuss a common topic.
We are talking about the Light since you haven't noticed as yet.
Wow will have to repeat. First read the books I have mentioned then we can start, right now you will not know what I am talking about.
So this is your idea of a debate? Have you read or heard about the Light?Have mentioned some masterpieces.
Bovine Currency" no I haven't read these books"
How will we debate if you don't have any knowledge?This is a religious forum and you haven't read these books and want to debate?
Heard all this before...
When you are ready...
I am trying to start a debate but you haven't even read of what I am talking about so its difficult. First read gain some knowledge then get into a debate.
I posted incorrectly. Meant for mohit. Phylosopher?....bologna.
All I`ve seen from him is how rated his writings are.I read the same writings on the urinals in public bathrooms.
I have not read all those books. My point exactly is that those books you mention are not a complete bibliography of spiritual reference books.
They are the teachings of enlightened ones who mention the light. Start reading then you will have knowledge to debate with.
I will make this really straightforward for you,
You claim that all spiritual books mention the light.
That is the only reason we are still talking.
You are still wrong.
Mohit, guys like you are a dime a dozen. Your writings are just childish jibberish.Good for starting fires.
So write and get ranked over my work, I challenge you to do so.Till then sorry you are just cheap talk like Bovine.
It's getting so boring!
But.... Ignorance is Bliss! that's why he's so 'enlightened' !
Coming over and over again after my posts, only cheapens you the more.
Look whos talking about being cheap.Is it not possible for you be be nice, just normal ?
Its so hot they couldn't photograph my face?
you lost credibility even among religious people. See the posts above.
You're not doing your 'thing' well!
And no, it's impossible for me to be nice and normal ,with such a proud human being!!!
and what's that about your face ???
My face has been shown in this forum for quite a while, So everybody knows how I look
Still after me ??
You are to cheap and as usual have absolutely nothing intelligent to add.Hopefully all atheists are not as rude as you and use some of the intelligence god has given them.
Try being nice and you will see I will reciprocate.I do have qualifications irrespective of whether you like them or not.People will believe me over you as you have absolutely no qualifications where spirituality is concerned.
Who has taught you this behavior?
Still, still, after me !!!!
I'm so important !!!
do you want an autograph?
I'm not replying to your rude comments.
Who taught you to go on a religious forum and abuse religious poets ? You say I am rude
You butted in so how that make me after you, isn't it the other way around?
You are just such a sweet person its incredible and you call believers and religions bad ruin every thread with your crap.
I can see you have no pride at all.
you're too easy for me. just like your poetry.
I'm moving on, as I'm getting bored!
By works a man is justified; and not by faith only.
Are they my words?
So the work of Christ is not enough to satisfy God? Show me Scriptural evidence that God imputes the righteousness of Christ onto the sinner's account on the basis of his works.
Well we both agree that we are saved by the grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
I will show you where I got my previous quote from.
Theophany we are basically saying the same thing, just like Martin Luther and the Catholic Church were saying the same thing 492 years ago. Regarding grace, faith and works there was no need for a reformation.
<snipped - no promotional links in the Forums>
Mike, we have 2 seemingly contradicting passages. Therefore, we have to look at both of them and find one model or formula of justification that works for both passages (assuming you believe in the infallibility of God's word). Look at Romans 4:
"If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."
Paul is pointing out that if God declared us righteous on the basis of our works, then the gift of salvation is no longer a gift; it would be an obligation. But since God wants the glory to himself and he wants us to cherish his gift, he declares us righteous on the basis of our faith alone, not anything we could work towards. For that confusion among countless others, yes there was a need for the Reformation.
So, how does this fit in with the passage in James? Like I said, if the Scripture is proceeding from the mouth of the same God, it must not contradict itself. What is the explanation that allows both passages to coexist? Well let's see what James said:
"Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?" (v. 22)
"For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead." (v. 26)
In other words, Paul was saying that you are justified on the basis of faith and James adds to the equation by reminding the believers that this true faith is ALWAYS accompanied with works. The works is the tangible evidence that you do, in fact, possess the faith that justifies you. In this interpretation, both passages can coexist without contradiction. If you have another interpretation with no contradiction, please explain.
At this point, you might still be saying we're arguing the same thing. But we're not. The way we understand this doctrine affects all aspects of our service to God. If we knew it was by faith alone that we are saved, we would be compelled to honor and serve the Lord with our works because we cherish him so much and we want others to experience the same gift. Now, if we believed that we are justified by works, we would then feel obligated to do good deeds and live in fear that we haven't met that obligation. I know many Catholics who are not sure about their salvation, not because they don't have faith, but because they don't know if they've satisfied the Lord with their good works yet. Our work and labor in the Lord should be done out of gratitude, not fear of not making it to heaven.
Merry Christmas to you too, Mike. And I hope this helped.
Works. Better to be a force of good in the world than to sit around waiting to be saved.
Hi Theophany, I trust you had a nice Christmas.
I agree, there is no contradiction with James.
But I have already mentioned on page 9 of this thread that we are not saved by what we ourselves do, whether by faith or by works. We are saved by God's Grace (Ephesians 2:8 & Acts 15:11). By God's Grace we have faith in Him. And also by God's Grace we do good works. If we have faith in God and we do good works then we know we have God's Grace.
We receive God's Grace mostly through the 7 Sacraments. The Holy Bible mentions all 7 Sacraments. Catholics do not believe in the Bible alone (solo scriptum) because Jesus promised He would send His Holy Ghost to guide His church, which He did. Members of Jesus Christ's universal church existed before the Bible was written so they did not follow solo scriptum. Members of Jesus Christ's universal church wrote the Bible. Catholic is the Greek word for universal. Just because Catholics do not believe in the Bible alone it does not mean we do not follow the Holy Bible. We do.
<snipped - do not promote links in the Forums>
See what I am saying, the reformation didn't add anything, it took things away. In particularly most of the 7 Sacraments that we receive God's Grace from.
Theophany when you say "I know many Catholics who are not sure about their salvation" you make me believe that you think Catholics believe in 'one saved always saved'. Catholics do not follow the doctrine of 'one saved always saved' and you shouldn't either. I mentioned this earlier on page 9 and I'll post it again because it fits in with what I am saying. I mentioned Judas Iscariot as an historical figure to show that 'one saved always saved' is not a true doctrine. Two other historical figures that come to mind to prove this are Hitler and Stalin. I believe both Hitler and Stalin received a Christian Baptism. Now only God will be judging someones salvation but ... I think you get my point.
We receive God's Grace through the Sacraments continually throughout our lives. We stand fast and persevere unto the end. Do you see how God's Grace through the Sacraments and faith and works all fit together?
So from what I posted above you should be able to see that your understanding of the Catholic faith that you posted earlier that I pasted below is not right. It is much more than that.
Well that does it. If we can't post links that explain with Biblical verses the 7 Sacraments or anything else to do with Christianity in these forums anymore then it's time to look for another forum to hang out in. It would be different if it was a hub (I have seen many hubs posted in these forums) or some other commercial site but when it comes to not being able to post non-commercial Christian links to explain what you are saying then it's time to go some where else. Even direct links to the Bible and blocks of text are being snipped now. I'm going to post the links to the 7 Sacraments again here. If they get snipped again then that will be the last you'll see of me. I don't like discrimination.
The 7 Sacraments
Holy Matrimony is covered extensively in the Bible under 4 categories (divorce & remarriage, contraception, homosexuality & husband as the head of the family)
Anointing of the Sick
As a Christian, you discriminate. So, it would appear that your complaint is in vain.
And, there's something appropriate here about a door hitting the posterior as one exits. I can't seem to recall it, though...
(Q) as a militant atheist you discriminate in every single religion thread you attack in here, whether it be Christian or any other religion.
It's been asked many times "why does HubPages allow discrimination against religious threads in these forums by militant atheists?"
Maybe they haven't heard of the United Nations resolutions against religious discrimination.
No, I treat the hypocrites here equally.
The answer to that should be self-evident if the violence, hatred, racism and oppression of the Abrahamic cults exhibited for centuries has anything to do with it.
Maybe they have and they understand your assertions are complete bullocks.
Faith and works are required by the Lord. Good works being the product of true faith which is the assurance of a just, Merciful, and righteous judgment from a perfect God. Faith is perfected by obedience to the gospel of Christ; it is a principle of action, it is the means by which people attain a remission of their sins. By faith miracles, visions, healings and all of the other gifts of God are manifested.
"Good works" comes from compassion, something we all share.
To replace compassion with the 'righteous judgment from a perfect god' only allows the corruption of appealing to the invisible and undetectable an easier solution than helping your fellow man, and justification to not do so.
Not all people have compassion.
compassion is a rightous judgment, not a replacement.
prayer is only half of the solution. Noone is ever justified in doing nothing when they possess the power to act in faith and rightousness, which is something one would need only a particle of faith to exercise.
They do, but they have decided to not use it in favor of looking out for their own salvation.
Nonsense. One does not judge compassion based on righteous indignation, they act on it without any thought to whether or not they'll be judged.
Prayer is not a solution at all, it is a lack of a solution. Action, not wishful thinking offers solutions.
Clearly, you don't get it. No one needs one iota of faith and righteousness to act on compassion.
Atheists aren't usually concerned with their own salvation.
You are implying that I think people act out of compassion based on how they will be judged and not out of the good nature that were inherently born with. sometimes people are faced with the decision of weather or not to do the right thing.
Prayer is the best solution it opens the door to divine guidance, and guids the troubled soul to a state of happiness and salvation.
Indeed the world has a lot to learn about compassion and it starts with thoughtful prayer. Remember on the day of judgment that the saving grace of our Lord encompasses all, everyone sins and comes short of the blessings of heaven. there is however a solution to sin and it starts with geting on your knees and asking the Lord for frogivness.
Frogivness? Sorry I know it's just a typo, but funny!
We must froget if we are to frogive. *ribbit*
Is that not what you've been saying?
True, while others are faced with the decision of doing whatever it takes for personal salvation.
Wonderful, I'll pass on your words of advice to those troubled souls who pray for food while you and your god take solace in your impotent idleness and self-gratifications.
Standing on a soapbox and bleating out the gospel sermon on the mount speech while ignoring what others say does little but demonstrate that seeking personal salvation is seeking want and ignorance in the face of your fellow man and his impoverishment.
Jacob Marley walks the earth this day as a result.
That vile and contemptible remark is only equaled by the vast emptiness of your words, your integrity and your mind, and is in stark contrast to the reality from which you've escaped.
What reality are you living in? You seem to be saying that giving thanks for being alive is vile.
Unfortunately, I live in a reality in which people worship the myths and superstitions of centuries gone by. Those myths and superstitions have been given the highest priority to defend and uphold while human beings are designated expendable and irrelevant to this pursuit.
Vile is a description that is merely the tip of such an iceberg.
And what a bleak and cynical world it must be! But fear not my brother, for we will all put off this mortality and be clothed in the garments of immortality. Wether we be rightous or unrightous we will all be assigned by our creator to go to the place which the father has prepared for us. Keep the faith, pray always, and love your neighbor.
What? Too pious? He he he he he..............
Evolution is a fact. It does not regard humanity as anything significant.
And, equally irrelevant to the discussion.
It's only when those who disregard humanity that make it significant.
So you are saying because you disregarded humanity, it has become significant?
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