Why would you be allowed ?
What have you done to deserve it ?
You're sounding boring !
I don't like slaves !
Most people like to watch the Olympics, because they only happens once every 4 years, but I'd rather talk to you cause the chance of meeting someone so special only happens once in a lifetime.
yea right, more like the other way around. although if her husband told her not to cheat on him she shouldn't do that.
Yes. No. What are you friggin kidding me? Is it okay to say friggin? Should I ask my husband?
That's what I love about christians, they ask such serious questions. JFC where should I start?
Do you know how difficult it is to type correctly right now?
Yes, you should always obey your husband, because, after all, what have you got to lose? Your mind? No, I don'[t really think so.
Except every once in a while, you should disobey him, just to spice things up a bit.
Good luck with all that.
No.... Not always, but should give her words a value and if she is right then he must...
It is no doubt that the old philosophy was quite good for a family structure but with the passage of time as the western culture became popular the family structure also ruined. I think it is not good for women to disobey their husbands for a successful life.
Nonsense, the family structure works much better when both spouses are equals.
Of course, as long as you're a misogynist husband.
obey is a strong word as suggesting one is inferior. Owner to dog or parent to child. When told orders that are illegal or against one's beliefs it is not wrong. Wives and husbands should discuss and agree (or disagree) on a moral act. This does help I guess.
Oh, please that idea is so atavistically medieval. No right thinking and intelligent woman should submit to any male, being husband, father, relative, or a significant other. Those days are long gone. Women are equal to men and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be attuned to the 21st century instead of the past.
I am new to HubPages and I actually posted a hub regarding this very idea. The short answer is yes, But there is a difference in what I mean regarding context
Deepes, I've just read your hub in question and I have to say I find it rather disturbing on so many levels. Getting marriage advice from a book written by men thousands of years ago is just a bad idea. Is that how you will raise any daughters if you should be so lucky as to have them? Tell her to submit to her husband on the day of her marriage? It's the year 2013 and we are trying teaching our children to get an education and to strive for independence. Marriage is a partnership my friend and very few people don't like to make there own decisions. That lack of control causes depression and makes people miserable. Perhaps you haven't given this much thought because you are under the assumption that the bible is the word of God? Do you really think God would treat girls different then boys? Are the souls of girls different then the souls of boys? Imagine if you will your daughter the lawyer getting married. Do you tell her upon her marriage to submit to her husband? The husband decides on day two that she should quit her law practice to look after him. Should she do it?
Marriage should be a partnership for the good of both parties and children. We each have strengths and we should never feel we are being dominated.
You actually missed a lot of what specifically I was saying in the message. A revision probably is in order, But the main thing I was trying to impart in the message (in spite of one part of it) is that there is more to submission than simple obedience and mind control. There is also the idea of coming under the influence of another and their wisdom and experience before just making a decision. The message was also meant to give an example of why it is important for men to submit and to consider their wives instead of just making decisions that will affect the whole family
I think the point missing is the other way around. I don't care how well a dominant person heeds and cares for submission person. I don't buy into that model of being a life partner. And neither do many other people. If you want to use that model, fine. It has nothing to do with me and I'm not going to.
The model that life partners are made up of a dominant and subservient person (at all)--and specifically that the female should be the latter.
Heck I don't even believe that. submission isn't about subservience if taken into specific context. The fact of the matter is that even in claiming independence, A lot of women subconsciously take that dependent role by wanting a lot of men to make decisions then cry foul when their opinions aren't taken into consideration. submission is about mutual respect in terms of one of the definitions of submission that I mentioned.
What a joke. You said women should submit and the man should love. You've given them separate roles based on gender. It's 2013.
There is submission in love. If you look at it.
There is when there is. And there isn't when there isn't.
Please don't imply the rest of us aren't in 'real' love because we use a consensus model with no veto.
Of course there is, but it's not based on gender. If you counselled people to respect each other and learn when to let the other person take control I'd have no argument, but that's not what you've done. You've said the mans roll is to be the provider and to make the decisions and the women's roll is to support her husband and to submit to his will.
If it isn't what you mean maybe you should stop saying it.
I don't care why some women do choose to be subservient, conscious or unconsciously. Or why some men do. People can agree with their spouse to do whatever they want. Dom/sub of any kind whatsoever is just one option. You don't have to do it, and there is no moral or any other kind of superiority in choosing to do so or not do so.
Or indeed in choosing to be single, or in a same sex partnership, menage, celibate order or whatever.
No, I didn't miss anything. You said you counsel women to submit to their husbands because they are women and the bible tells them to. Then you tried to define submission. You're starting with an assumption of men and women based on a book written thousands of years ago rather then looking at people as individuals. What do you do when you come across a marriage between a female doctor and a male construction labourer? Do you tell her to submit to her husband? He decides he wants 15 children and wants her home. Submit? Completely ridiculous. Children should be raised to show respect for each other regardless of gender. Know what has to be done to make your spouse happy and do it.
Know what needs to be done and do what makes their spouse happy??? So if a carpenter wants his doctor wife to stay home and raise 15 kids because it makes him happy then she should do it?? Ridiculous!!!
In case you missed it Rad, The primary difference between what you just said and what I wrote is the fact that I mentioned the Bible. Submission works both ways. I submit to my wife by listening to her counsel and taking heed of her wisdom before I make a decision (which makes her happy). Same difference.. You and I, while very respectful of each other will continue to look at a situation differently simply because I mention the Bible, and that's fine. I can live with that. I agree to disagree with you on this one..
Your not understanding. I'm speaking to both people in the marriage as equals. You are giving roles based on gender because of what was written a few thousand years ago.
You might consider giving council to your wife and then waiting for her to make the family decisions.
From what I'm hearing she is more likely to be the wiser of the group, more able to make life decisions, than anyone that thinks a y chromosome automatically confers that ability. Most people outgrew that notion quite a few years ago as civilization slowly came to parts of the world and the natural male dominance from a strength base crumbled. People (at least some of them) have come to realize that bulging biceps do not indicate wisdom.
When I have a daughter, I will counsel her to not be dominated into following a man that will not take her ideas into consideration before making his decisions. Just like I will teach my son that submission works both ways in that he is supposed to heed the counsel of his wife before making a decision that will affect everyone's life.
That completely negates submission. Make up your mind. Do you really want your daughters lot in life to be the better of her husband? You can't say women should submit to their husbands and tell her that she should be consulted in the decision making. If they are making decisions together then they are partners, but that is what submission requires.
Agreeing to disagree would not involve saying your approach is fact--and ours is presumably something else.
For me, Agreeing to disagree doesn't make my opinion more true than anyone elses. I t just means that for me I can recognize that we will have differing opinions. I do not claim nor will I ever claim that my views are truth or more valid than anyone else's. To each their own. I use that term to state that I will no longer argue a specific point.. Just like I am bout to do now with you
"The primary difference between what you just said and what I wrote is the fact that I mentioned the Bible."
"There is submission in love. If you look at it."
You keep speaking in universals that suggest the rest of us are lacking, incorrect, not looking or not in real love. You need to learn how to speak your truth in relation to you--not as a universal. Because until you do it is not just different opinions. It is you telling us our way of living is wrong and yours is right.
And we aren't going to just take that
And yet you say you advise women to submit to their husbands?
I'm sure he did read it. One thing I've come to understand about Rad is that he does thoroughly read before he comments. I've also come to notice that being atheist he will summarily dismiss, reject, and tear apart anything posted that gives any mention to the bible.
Indeed. That's a rather typical response from many atheists.
Brenda, you don't seem like the kind of person to submit to anyone. What if your husband comes home and says he's now an Atheist and the family will no longer attend church or prey? Do you say "yes sir, I'll fetch your slippers?"
The husband actually has the first responsibility to love the Lord. If he loves the Lord, he will love the wife and properly guide her and/or the family.
When man's laws contradict the laws of God, we're not required to submit to them.
Some men want the authority but not the responsibility. So do some Pastors.
Which is why I no longer take any man's word as Gospel until and unless I've compared it to the word of God, whether they stand in my home or in a pulpit. And it matters whether or not a husband or a Pastor is open to edification and constructive criticism. Control freakiness and cults are formed when people take an individual's word as Gospel without checking it out.
That being said, I am in no way a "feminist". Women are fallible too. And we should "vet" whatever we hear from anyone's mouth, even our own.
You make it sound as if you "submit" only when that is what you want to do anyway, which of course makes that submission worthless.
I submit only if it's not wrong, or if it really is what's right.
Big difference between what a wife may want to do and what she does.
There are a lot of things that are "submissive" which a wife does. From simple things to big things. For instance, there's no way I'm gonna wash a man's dirty socks or underwear on a ongoing basis unless he's my husband or unless I'm employed as a laundress. You may think that's a small thing, and it kinda is, but in another way it's a huge thing. I personally don't want to wash anyone's dirty socks! But I do it for my husband. There are many such examples in daily life, from washin' socks to being faithful. A husband who is faithful has the right to have a wife who's faithful.
And as far as the big things, I believe my response earlier said it correctly, that if a husband tells a wife that she can't go to church, etc., then the wife has no obligation to follow her husband's words on that, because he has no rightful authority to tell her such a thing.
On the opposite end of that, if he were to tell me I had to go to a church that was teaching wrong things, I would refuse to do that too.
It would be the same if I told him to do something wrong. He would have no obligation to listen to me.
Then you do not submit and you are a fraud. Saying you only submit under certain circumstances is not submitting at all. The bible doesn't say submit unless... It just says to submit, just as it says to slaves. Submit.
I agree with your post and women have stepped out of bounds to submission. They want to rule the roost and refuse to accept reproof. But then that leads us to another topic! 1 Timothy, 1 Peter, as well as the teachings of Christ in Matthew 5-7 includes the role of woman and man and that the woman should never forget that she came from the rib of man, therefore making man the ruler over her and her body. In Timothy, it explains that a woman is to follow God and live as God has planned for us and that the husband will be made right with God not because of his choice of worship. Also, it is our responsibility to know Gods Word so that we may know the truth for ourselves and not to rely on what "man" says because regardless of how the Word is given; good or bad, its still being preached and open to all! The woman is to seek God for herself, obey her husband for God made him first and in His image, and to work toward being the virtue woman that Proverbs 31 describes!
Be forever Blessed!
The way I remember the story ... It says Wifes submit to your husbands and the next verse says ... and husbands submit to your wifes.
So what did the word which we get submit from really mean?
Apparently you didn't read all of Deepes Mind's hub after all. Early on, he quotes Ephesians 5:21 where it says for everyone to "submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God." The next verses talk specifically about submission between husband and wife.
So, if we are to take "submit" as mindless slavery, then every person would have to submit to every other person without any qualifying factors, and not only is that not good, but it's literally impossible. LOL.
Once again, the phrases "in the fear of God" and "as unto the Lord" are key points.
That's seriously not hard to understand, and I dunno why you don't get it.
I guess the point is that you are unwilling to submit to your husbands decision as to what is right or wrong; you will make your own decision without regard to his; you will submit only when you wish to. And no, I do not refer to little things like washing socks, but to the major decisions of life.
While I personally salute that attitude, it is not biblical and it is not what the OP considers submission. Elsewhere he indicates that he will listen to the wife's comments, but that HE will then make the decision. Including, presumably, what is right or wrong, true or false. In that kind of decision you will be your own master, bowing to no one.
I read your hub completely and could honestly care less where you got your advice from. My quarrel is not with the bible in this case it's with you counselling women to submit to their husband as if being a male somehow makes them knowledgeable on everything or anything. It's 2013 and your still segregating people based on sex. Tell me, the bible advises on how to control slaves and advised the slaves to submit to their owners. Should we take that advise as well?
I invite you to use your own brain. You seem like a very intelligent, educated person. Bad advice is bad advice no matter where it came from.
Or he is stuck only on one definition of the word, which is normal for a lot of people, but if he paid attention to all definitions he would realize that he does do what he is slamming me for talking about.. submitting to his wife and probably vice versa
I don't think I'm stuck on any definition. These are your words.
"Ladies, the word says “Submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands” (Eph 5: 22-24). I’m leaving that one alone other than to say God said it, not Rory. Fellas, we’re not off the hook either. The word also says “Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it” (Eph 5:25). Our wives have lived their own lives prior to marrying us and have gained wisdom of their own from their own experiences. As our helpmates, it is their role to support us in every way possible including sharing their wisdom as a way to assist us in our decision making."
Incase you missed the last sentence...
"Our wives have lived their own lives prior to marrying us and have gained wisdom of their own from their own experiences. As our helpmates, it is their role to support us in every way possible including sharing their wisdom as a way to assist us in our decision making."
"Our wives have lived their own lives prior to marrying us." Are you suggesting that are not living their own lives anymore? They are now just our helpmates?
The most important scripture that we've all seem to have forgotten is Titus 3:9-10 "Do not get involved in foolish discussions about or in arguments about obedience; they are useless and a waste of time. (case in point) (10) If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning, after that have nothing more to do with them. And to add (11), People like that have turned away from the truth and their own sins condemn them. So sir and madam, there is no way to argue or prove whats right and who's right! I Corinthians 1:18-20 speaks of people who use worldly knowledge speak in utter foolishness. The man is to love his wife as he loves God and not to abuse their position as the head to belittle or shame his wife or else God will return the favor. Submission is a sign of your respect and service and love for God. You're submitting for the sake of your relationship with God, and he if he is a horrible person he will surely be dealt with and nobody has vengeance like God! So next time be mindful of what you ask and make sure your knowledge is from the Bible and not from what you think its suppose to be. People have done what they wanted and suffered the consequences, but even in the Old Testament it encourages women to be providers fro themselves and not to seek the support of a man.
See I'm of two minds on this one. Firstly... if I would have submitted I would have likely saved my first marriage. On the other hand if I would have submitted I would have likely saved my first marriage.
The point is: As a woman why on earth would you want a man who wishes you to submit...the bible does not say that a husband must force a woman to submit just that she must if he does push the issue. So why not avoid the whole problem and find a man that doesn't wish to have dominance over his wife?
In short since the bible doesn't specifically say that a woman must find an asshat to marry why not let those Christian women who feel the need to wash socks and underwear (I do not) let that kind of man put a ring through their nose...er... I mean on their finger.
Very interesting thread folks, really enjoyed reading both peoples points of view in this somewhat controversial topic, and of course the laughs haha,
I think trust works both ways, and if one wants someone to "obey" well then it needs to be a mutual thing of obeying each others trust, and not so much a "do it because your my wife" thing...
Women need to be respected, plain and simple.
You've stumbled on the key to most marriage problems. Correct, the wife is no longer living her own life...but neither is the husband. They both may have interests they pursue separately, and even from their previous lives, but they made a commitment to their new life together, "two shall become one." Marriage problems generally come from one or both forgetting or disregarding that commitment, to put their new life together first.
That passage and other similarly misogynistic passages in the Bible was my first clue that the whole thing is trash. Just my opinion.
Consider who is being spoken to in the verses indicating women should submit...they are speaking to the believers and followers of Christ. This mandate therefore assumes a Godly couple, and a man who is following Christ's example. One who puts his wife and family first, willing to sacrifice all for them, and one who is accountable to Jesus for what he does. This therefore presumes someone unselfish and respectful of his wife...not a hard "leader" to follow. It also presumes a wife who respects the relationship described between Jesus and His church and is more than willing to acquiesce to the headship of both a Lord (Jesus) and her husband, both who love her and put her first. This advice was not given to or intended for the "world".
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