They are "way superior to you in intellectually"? Is that English?
It is unfortunate people rarely read the instruction given to the husband three verses later.
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her."
So it's a circle. The woman supports her husband, but he would never choose anything that could hurt her or harm their family. Christ preferred to die rather than see his people suffer. This is the kind of man a husband should be. He'd rather die than see harm or hurt come to the woman he loves. It's not so hard for a woman to want to help her husband in making decisions and going forward with actions for the good of the family, if she knows his greatest desire is to make her happy.
Maybe people should keep their creepy hate filled judgemental sky fairy god out of other peoples lives.
I think people should be more like you, tolerant of others beliefs and always willing to open their mind.
Their beliefs are intolerant to everyone who doesn't share them. So...?
So...Like your beliefs? How very different you are.
I am specifically talking about your prejudice towards Christians and I suspect anybody who is different than you. These words may not be yours but you did in fact post them so I can only assume you are complete agreement.
(Q)posted the following
"We hear an awful lot from conservatives in the Bible Belt and on the TV about how we all should be living. Certainly a culture that teaches the conservative religious values of the Christian right must have clean living written all over it. And lots of ripe fruit from their morally superior lives abounding."
"It doesn't. Far from it. People that talk the loudest may be the ones walking the slowest. Joining its history of Biblically correct bigotry and discrimination, it is an area with the highest divorce, murder, STD/HIV/AIDS, teen pregnancy, single parent homes, infant mortality, and obesity rates in the nation. As a region, the Bible Belt has the poorest health care systems and the lowest rates of high school graduation."
"These findings confirm what I have been saying these last five years. Since Atheist ethics are of a higher caliber than religious morals, it stands to reason that our families would be dedicated more to each other than to some invisible monitor in the sky. With Atheism, women and men are equally responsible for a healthy marriage. There is no room in Atheist ethics for the type of 'submissive' nonsense preached by Baptists and other Christian and/or Jewish groups. Atheists reject, and rightly so, the primitive patriarchal attitudes so prevalent in many religions with respect to marriage."
Christians are different than me? Do they have two heads or something? Please explain.
Yes, I am, and if you're not, feel free to refute those words rather than just tossing out hypocritical claims of tolerance.
You are no different than Christians? I just thought by your words you believed you were of a superior intellect, maybe I misunderstood.
Seems you did misunderstand.
So, can you refute those words or not?
I didn't misunderstand anything, not my place to refute those words, its your place to prove them.
Ah, I see, it was meant as an insult and you have nothing else of value to say. Thanks for the clarification.
Take it however you want, and as far as having anything of value to say I believe all points of view should be tolerated, I think most people find that of value.
True, but when the points of view (religion) aren't tolerant to others, then there is no reason to be tolerant to those points of view, is there?
And thats why I offered my opinion to Ernestshub, not sure why you would care, being so tolerant and all.
And, Earnestshub was merely demonstrating the intolerance of religion, or should I say, "points of view."
No, he was demonstrating his intolerance and hypocrisy as he usually does!
So, you decided to insult him rather than refute his words. Well done.
Seems like that was a knee-jerk emotional reaction on your part, yes?
I pointed out his hypocrisy, do you not know the difference? I really don't think you are following along, goodbye!
No, you didn't and yes, I do. You simply tossed out an insult and nothing more. Had you actually pointed out a hypocrisy, you would have actually explained it.
You did no such thing, even after I asked you to explain yourself or refute his words.
You did exactly what a troll would do.
You can redeem yourself by pointing out the hypocrisy and explaining why its hypocritical. Or, be a troll.
Earnest has his reasons for the sky fairy line. We will never what they are but he certainly gives liberals a bad name.
Before you take personal shots at people you really should make sure you are able to speak and write proper English.
I can't believe that some of you people let these "English-As-A-Second-Language" goofs give you sh*t for your beliefs.
That's all I'm going to say.
I have hubs to write.
You do know that more than 90% of the world population does not speak English as a native language? Most of them don't even speak it as a second language. Still a lot of them can give you a lecture on life, family, love and so on.
That's all I'm going to say.
p.s. They don't even write 1 hub every day.
I don't know where you got those statistics.
It doesn't matter.
The international language is English. If you wish to succeed in business one of the languages you need to know is English.
HubPages has an English requirement.
Anyone who seeks to lecture someone else here should first master the required language.
That is my point.
Why bother letting someone who can barely speak the language required here upset you with nonsense? Instead of talking sh*t to people about religion they should STFU and worry about improving their use of the English language.
My name is Phoenix and . . . that's the bottom line.
Have you succeeded in business? I highly doubt. So shouldn't you first do it, before you start to explain what is necessary to do it? And no, you don't need to know English to succeed in business.
The fact that a bunch of rednecks in the U.S. thinks that the whole world orbits around America is a said state of their ignorance. Vast majority of the literature, music, theater plays, etc. in this world are not in English. Moreover the majority of the world's best literature is not written in English and was often written by people that never spoke English.
Why is something that someone is saying nonsense, because person doesn't say it in perfectly correct English? Actually, pretty much everything you said in your post is nonsense, regardless of the language you used. Maybe instead of talking sh*t to people about their English you should STFU and worry about improving your logical reasoning.
You highly doubt what? You highly doubt IT? Is that what you meant to say? Why attack me personally?
A survey or study was done several years ago and it was determined that the two languages one should learn in order to succeed in business are English and Japanese.
You'll note at no time do I make any personal attacks. (Nor do I intend to waste time with anyone who does.)
What exactly IS a "said state"?
I am simply giving you facts. I am not insulting anyone (unlike you).
I will not discuss the quality of any of these works you mention. I'm not here to debate the quality of non-English works. Nor will I ask you to give evidence or proof of the "best" literature to which you refer. Shakespeare wrote in English. Let's let it go at that.
You missed my point. My point is if someone has not yet mastered the language required for HubPages then perhaps he or she should spend less time talking sh*t about religion or proving their imperfect English skills by attacking others and more time perfecting the language.
I tried to generally stick to the facts. Logic and facts go hand in hand.
I simply feel that those who cannot even tell they cannot properly write/speak English really need to STFU and not talk sh*t to others.
Is it clear this time?
First of all, you can forget about this whole argument 'study determined' as any kind of argument, unless you quote me the specific study itself. I finished my grad degree at Ivy League (well technically I haven't finished it yet, I have a few months off and will get it in May), so I probably do know a bit more about studies than you do. In this case you even mention that it might be a survey, which would make it even less valid. Not to mention that you say that it was done 'some time ago'. Well, the world has changed from some time ago...
Stating some unanimous survey (that might as well be made up by you) as a FACT that proves your point about what is needed in order to succeed in business is a joke. As I'm telling you, give me your personal experience and not what you red in Oprah magazine 10 years ago. Mine is from I-bank in NY.
As for the quality of non-English work, well I guess it would be wise to read it first. As for Shakespeare, in my personal opinion he is the most overrated writer. Btw he did write in old-English and half of the English native speakers have a hard time following him.
As for the argument that he shouldn't be attacking others, because his English is not perfect, again it is ridiculous. So if your English is good enough than it is ok to personally attack other people?
All in all you didn't stick to the facts at all, you pretty much did not bring any fact at all. Even if you did, it would not imply at all that you do reason logically, which you don't. Logic is the study of CORRECT reasoning. Though you might have all the facts in this world, it doesn't mean that you use them properly.
It's totally fine that you simply feel that those who cannot write/speak English perfectly need to STFU and not talk sh*t to others, but similarly I feel that those who cannot reason logically need to STFU and not talk sh*t to the others.
No need to ask, I'm sure that it will be more than clear this time.
Haha. I can tell you've got a sure, strong understanding of your beliefs by how you insult the people who question them instead of addressing them.
No, once again, the religious battle has taken over a perfectly legitimate forum thread. I'm outa here, bye.
I can't believe no one has mentioned the disconnect between insisting everyone speak "proper english" and actually using "STFU" and meanings it.
so what about the husbands and wifes?
do they have to know English ?
It don't matter if they speal or not; or at all; as long as they do as "I" say !!!
hay Ms "T" and MR. him. how ya doin ???
Of course women should obey their husbands but only if they know what`s good for them.
First of all, I am simply trying to keep things on track.
there were people who obviously have not mastered the language required for HubPages attacking the beliefs of others.
I am not interested in what education someone supposedly has other than to note that the continued criticisms of my posts here contain several grammatical errors.
STFU is an abbreviation for a phrase HP would not find acceptable.
I have no intention of stating my credentials in here. Anyone can say anything.
I would suggest that if you are going to claim you are educated then you should probably check your grammar before doing so. I don't care how stupid everyone sounds in a forum. What I originally suggested was that people should pay little attention to attacks from people who cannot speak/write correct/proper English.
I agree. For people who are not educated, Old English would be as difficult as modern English. I am not asking anyone to evaluate my use of logic. I am not asking for anyone to give their opinions about anything I have said.
I am simply pointing out that all the people in here who are wasting time talking to people who are attacking them with grammatically-incorrect English are wasting their time talking to people who are obviously less qualified to even be part of Hubpages since English IS the required language here.
So again, anyone who is in here talking sh*t to others with grammatically incorrect English should just STFU and work on improving their use of the REQUIRED language for this forum.
Everyone needs to stick to the topic posted instead of attacking the religious beliefs of others. Anything else is just bullsh*t.
Finally, any further grammatically-incorrect responses or posts directed at me will be ignored. I have hubs to write and no one is paying me to edit their work here.
And who has asked you to evaluate their English? Who has asked you to give your opinions about anything they said?
I didn't know that there is certain qualification needed to be part of Hubpages. Hopefully for you it is not logical reasoning. Not to mention that 'pointing out that people who are wasting their time are wasting their time' sounds perfect.
Again, anyone who is in here talking sh*t to others with reasoning that lacks any logic and common sense should just STFU and work on improving their use of brain.
Dude, if you were any good at your work you wouldn't be writing hubs to make a living.
The truth is that people that keep bringing small grammar errors as arguments are doing so, because they can not challenge others by constructing valid points themselves. Personally I did my undergrad and grad school in the U.S., but still English is not my native language. I might or might not improve my grammar, however it is certain that you won't improve your reasoning.
Discussion is over.
I don't write hubs to make a living. The writing I do HERE is largely for fun.
You didn't use ANY logic in making THAT assumption, did you?
The truth is you continue to make grammatical errors in your personal attacks on me.
You know nothing of my reasoning so you cannot judge it. I really am not trying to reason at all. I just stated a fact or two and foolishly thought you would acknowledge the facts rather than attack me personally.
My bottom line--which originally had nothing to do with YOU--was that people who have not mastered the required language for this forum are giving people sh*t about their religious beliefs when they SHOULD be working on their grammar and spelling.
Please feel free to think you're right. I have no more time for this.
Just so you're aware, I've noticed a definite pattern where people attacking the grammar and spelling of others in an argument unconnected to grammar and spelling are usually trying to feign intelligence the only way they can: resorting to diversionary attacks on those they disagree with to hide the total absence of anything intelligent to say on their part.
...and I don't think you're an exception to the trend.
One of the few requirements to be on Hubpages concerns the use of the English language. So English grammar and spelling is always connected here.
I'm not feigning intelligence. I am simply pointing out that people who cannot even use the required language for this forum properly are dumping on the beliefs of others. I am simply saying their arguments are a lot less credible or relevant because they are not presented correctly.
You must understand my point as you just seem to have dismissed my point because you think I am feigning intelligence.
If you go back to my original post you will see that my point has always been the same. I feel that people who have not yet mastered the required language of this forum should spend more time perfecting their language skills and less time attacking the beliefs of others.
I really don't personally care what anyone thinks about me here since no one here actually knows anything about me. I just think it's a shame that someone who has religious beliefs takes to heart attacks by people who are not educated enough to use the English language.
So, just to clarify, does that imply that those who hold religious beliefs are more educated and have mastered the English language over those who criticize them?
No. It's just that in this particular case I happened to notice that the people attacking those with religious beliefs were not even speaking proper, grammatically-correct English.
Thanks for the clarification. I've noticed a smattering of various levels of syntax across the board. What I also noticed was that grammar aside, some are better at expressing themselves than others. I think that's more important than sustaining good grammar.
Let's see how far off the subject we can get here. Oh yes that is what was said, religous people have gone to school and speak better english, and what does this have to do with the price of eggs in china?
I simply commented on what I saw. I saw someone with religious beliefs being hassled by someone who was not able to use the English language properly.
Now that I have clarified this perhaps the forum can get back on track.
(Please note, I don't always respond to people who cannot even bother to use the "spell-check" function either.)
In answer to the origional question; I would have to say. Absolutely... every time he says so!!!
That is unless I wake up one mornin as somebodys wife.
If that were to happen I retain the right to change my vote.
When Paul wrote the Ephesians, he was writing primarily to Gentiles, and Jews converting to Christianity. So, he was writing to the culture of the peoples at the time. Now if you look at the verse prior in 5:21, it talks about submitting to one another. So really, you have to look at it in context: the culture, history at the time, the author, the entire chapter, and who the audience is. The husband is also to honor his wife. Lastly, you have to look at translation. Many words have been either misinterpreted, or interpreted in different ways. The original Bible was written in Coine Greek, which has many words and phrases that don't have translation in English. I took 4 years of anciet Greek in high school.
Some husbands aren't worth obeying.
If someone finds a husband on par with God, he'd be worth obeying.
As long as I am still a Man..... the answer is ABSOLUTELY
with out a doubt unequivocally YES
And when she does I'll make her proud.
Sorry, Jerami...you normally don't seen like such a bad guy, but as a woman, I have to say that opinion kinda makes me wanna retch. If I heard those words come out of my partner's mouth, it'd be time to pack my bags ASAP.
Are you supposed to obey her? Does the fact of her sex make her somehow incapable of governing her own actions or thoughts? Or does it somehow obligate her to your whim just because you have a dangly bit that she doesn't? Does she have to obey you in order for you to try to make her proud? Who are you, or who is any man for that matter, to be obeyed?
I've met/chatted with so many nice guys who really believe that load of crap still. It's fascinating and revolting to me at the same time.
I guess I left out the enuciation of humor that I intended for my coment. If I were a woman I will change my vote.
But in reality this question as origionally posted goes either way. Should a man do WHAT EVER IT TAKES to get along with a dominering woman. Of course not. Reverse the question.. Should a woman?? NO!
So we must learn to get along together or learn not to.
Nobody gotta agree with anyone. Then what.
So that was tongue in cheek? Whew! Well...I sure hope so anyway. I'm sorry for misunderstanding your tone.
It sure seemed a little weird for you, but the post looked pretty serious at the same time, or else I'm just in a crap mood and incapable of reading humor into something right now. . I'm glad you cleared that up. Sorry for underestimating you.
Actually I do believe in the submitting part; when done in a mutual capacity. A marriage commitment has gotta be not a 50/50 split but a 100/ 100 exchange but that seldom happens.
To submit has too many incorrect definitions.
I think that the word submit actually means to truly commit unselfishly. This should be done mutually.
Otherwise it would be like one of the tires on the wagon carrying all the weight. That tire will be the first to have a blow out. Sorry about the metaphors. But I like um.
Good Night yaul... this woman over there said I better get off the computer and I know what I had better do.
No! The answer is No! Dogs should obey their masters. Children should obey their parents. Women are neither dogs nor children.
Everyone knows man is the superior gender of the species and therefore women should obey them, unless of course they are big enough to kick his a**!
I can kick my husbands ass alright, just because I'm small means nothing... lol
You got that right!!!!!!!!! Or he will be out on the curb... lol Cuz I'm an independent woman and I am boss... lol
You look like one of my exes... or maybe it's just that you sound like all of them!
I can see that by the pretty picture.
It shows in the way that your long hair curles up under the chin.
Very cute by the way.
A lot of questions can come from your question. I am not trying to be funny here but the scripture also states in Ephesians 5:25 for "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it".
I respect what the gentlemen have voiced about this because there are those men out there who demand a lot more than is spelled out in the scripture. Those are some of the sick relationships that we hear on TV etc going bad.
In most households today it requires joint custody of all things that it takes to live successfully...meaning jointly helping make the money, buy the food and helping with the children and therefore both individuals need to be appreciated,respected and loved by the other.
Should a man submit themselves to a woman ?
We are all born human and of our own free will and beliefs.
We are not born to serve, or submit, to anyone as women..we too have rights, a mind, and a free will to think, act, and be treated as such!
The bible also says "an eye for an eye" and we are seeing how well that is working out.
Ymmmmmm, link bait.
BTW, there are hundreds of passages in the Old Testament that can be read as inflammatory if you feel like it. Check out where it says that you can kill children who are "unruly" by throwing rocks at them. (Stoning at the city gates, I believe...)
Women should obey their husbands, only if, the woman says its ok first.
Okay, then, by that logic, Romeo and Juliet does promote teenage suicide, if you take the bit of them killing themselves by itself and without the aftermath as well as the prologue referring to their story specifically as a tale of woe.
By that logic, Ozzy Osbourne did tell people to end their lives Diary of a Madman, based on one line of lyrics taken by itself without the context of the rest of the album.
You cannot interpret any line from any book or any other written work properly by itself. You need the rest of it for context.
Yes, much like a recipe or how-to directions...you need the whole of it to have it make sense. Holly
Hmm. Context. What an odd use you are taking it to mean..... Context? Written 2-3,000 years ago when women were chattels.
Now - that is taking it in context. That is another one of those "christian family values" that went by the wayside.
'course - our resident female religionists don't want that one bought back in, so "context" means something new to suit. A bit like "using scripture to interpret scripture" to deal with those pesky inconsistencies in the perfect word of god that we have spent 2,000 years fighting over.
But, each part makes up the whole and if any one part is wrong, the whole is wrong.
Would you substitute a handful of salt for a pinch in a recipe? Would you turn the nuts to the left to tighten them in how-to instructions?
We differ in that I accept the Bible as Truth, you consider it to be hogwash. We will never agree.
This going round and around with you also will never change. Make a hub about it. Holly
No, my dear, we differ in a great many things. The primary one is that you will never learn to think.
I think - just not in the same way as you do. I am fine that you don't and I do not even try to convince you or anyone else that I am right or have proof. But you continually accuse me of being the ignorant one.
There is however one huge difference between the two of us...
I have the courage to write a hub Holly
Yes, it's called gullibility, but it isn't really a way of thinking. It's an acceptance of anything you choose to believe regardless of facts to the contrary.
If you actually did you use your brains to think, you wouldn't swallow everything that you do.
Please don't let us twist the bible or misinterpret the bible..
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.
Rebellion is what all the non believing posters have in common.
The answer is in Ephesians 5 21:33 - Try reading with understanding the WHOLE section and you will see that far from this being a 'put down women' commandment, it is perfect advice in how to be married
Ephesians 5 21:33
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies.
He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
An honest reading will see that there is no anti women sentiment here, for we are one body once married... two parts of the same body, so what would be the point of hurting ourselves?
But as God states; "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." so it is no wonder that those without Christ and who are still in rebellion cannot understand it.
One body cannot have two heads, so one needs to be responsible to God for ALL that happens, God nominated the male 'head' to be responsible, this means that he is responsible for all errors no matter who made them.
The male also has the responsibility to DIE for her, just like Christ did for rebellious humanity.
Having said that I know of no male believer who would be stupid enough to over rule his wifes opinions in any major matter.
Christian women know how to pray, no man will get away with wrong decisions when a woman starts praying!
what's with all the quotes? whatever happened to just using common sense?
Yes, love your wives blah blah blah they are precious blah blah blah love.
When people all start "living by the book" we all know which of the two between submission and love ends up being enforced, and it isn't love.
My wife is Swedish. Come to my house and mention that wives should be submissive to their husbands. Better bring a gun and a knife. Never know which she's gonna go for.
Eph 5:23-25 ASV For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body. (24) But as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything. (25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;
As the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives...As the husband is subject to Christ, so the wive...if hubby should say to go and murder someone...will I subject...No!! If hubby gives his life over for my sake, like Christ did...will I subject...I say onto you...that I will do much more than as to just subject...I will honor him with everything I am...
Gullable? No, I chose to believe something you happen to dismiss. That makes us different. Your perpetual insults to my intelligence is your inability to be respectfully different. Nothing more.
"If you actually did you use your brains to think, you wouldn't swallow everything that you do."
If you had used your brain to think that sentence would have made sense!
Is that English?
When I become handfasted to my love later this year, the word "obey" will not feature anywhere in the ceremony. We will be two equal human beings promising to support each other to the best of our ability.
Please explain "Handfasted" never heard that term before.
It is the pagan equivalent of a marriage ceremony. Unfortunately, it is not recognised in the UK as a legal matter, except in Scotland when done by an approved person. So we will go through a meaningless civil legal ceremony, probably pulling in witnesses off the pavement to get the signatures on the piece of paper. Then we will move to the ceremony that has meaning for us, which will be attended by our friends and will mark the true moment when we are joined together.
Got to be honest here...the mere title of this thread offends me a little. I've passed it so many times and just grit my teeth but today I just thought I'd drop in on it.
I am female and unmarried - living in sin I think the term is- with my boyfriend. Neither of us are bound by any faith that urges us to get married, we are both against the idea of paying large scores of money for a piece of paper with both our names on it. However, if we were ever do decide to go ahead and make that (to us) needless commitment then you can bet your bottom dollar that we will be an equal partnership just as we have always been. Women didn't chain themselves to railings so that future generations could be enslaved all over again. I'm not saying I don't do his washing for him on occasion; or generally look after him with making sure we have food and the bills are paid - I'm saying that he wouldn't dream of ordering me to do anything - but then he knows I'm the type of woman who doesn't take any stick, and that if he did he'd be out on his ear.
Man should be a head of the family. It means he should take care financally, spiritually about his family. Wife is not a dog-so the word obey is wrong. Woman is a human. If man is respectfull to woman she can follow his way. there are still limits though. Woman has her´needs as well. The world is not just about man, so sayin Woman should obey her man is wrong.
The bible also says for a husband to love his wife, as Christ loves His church. In my opinion, my wife is the love of my life and if I truely love her the way it is written for me to do, then she is a mutual partner in everything. This doesnt mean that one or the other cant be wrong and it become a debate issue. I would then discuss the issue and we would seek the right answer together. My wife is my mutual 50/50 partner.
A woman is to obey her husband if his wishes line up with the Word of God and the will of God.
"The bible says" a lot of things many of them too horrible and nasty for words.
I know it is "christian" and the "word" supports all the hate against minorities and those who had less power. Women are at least my equal, and there is no place for this sort of religious clap trap in a world that recognises human rights!
Bronze aged tripe!
Nope. Partnership is 50-50. We can definitely help and learn from each other.
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