Islam teaches that every child is born sinless with a pure heart and an inner instinct to realize the oneness of God. It is the parents or the environment that deviates this child to associate partners with God (in the form of multiple gods) or to reject God altogether.
Christians are taught that since the fall of Adam all men who are born according to the course of nature are conceived and born in sin. ...
What do you believe?
Conceived in sin means conceived in flesh. It is the flesh that is sinful. Children are innocent until they reach the age of accountability. This age will differ from child to child but many say around the age of 12 years old.
You're misled somewhat, or misleading.
True Christianity doesn't teach that a baby is guilty of sin.
It teaches that children are innocent until the "age of accountability" when they're mature enough to realize the facts of sin and death and the need for Jesus.
Catholicism, from what I've been given to understand, is the religion that teaches that innocent children can go to hell if they're not baptized in the Catholic way.
The Bible teaches clearly that infants are in a state of sin and need to be regenerated. They, like all humanity, can be saved only through Christ.
Ps. 51:5 — "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
John 3:6 — "That which is born of the flesh is flesh."
Rom. 5:14 — "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression."
Psalm 51:5 – “I was born a sinner – yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.”
Beginning in the Book of Genesis and throughout the entire Bible it is taught that man is born a sinner. No child is born morally neutral. Every person enters the world as a child of Adam, with a sin nature that needs little time and no encouragement to manifest itself.
And the Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done (Gen. 8:21, emphasis mine).
Surely I have been a sinner from birth, Sinful from the time my mother conceived me (Ps. 51:5, NIV).
Even from birth the wicked go astray; From the womb they are wayward and speak lies (Ps. 58:3, NIV).
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (Rom. 5:12).
Christian philosophy like Hindu philosophy equates the prophet with god.
Like Buddha is a person and also denotes god or Allah.
Similarly Christ is a person and also denotes god or Jevovah or the divine light or Allah.
You can't trust many of the "new" translations.
The KJV, for instance, says in Psalm 51:5: (which your NIV mis-translated above):
"Behold, I was shapen ((meaning "brought forth")) in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Big difference there.
no, no. Not to hell. To the limbo, which is a state where they must wait for apocalypse before entering heaven, If they died before baptism.
Because of the original sin. Yes, yes.
Original sin is congenital.
So is Christianity and Islam (like the OP said) exceptions? Or are these posters mistaken?
I don't know what the other religions teach about the innocence or sin of babies. I'd imagine it varies from church to church even within the religions and denominations. For instance, the Lutheran Church still retains some aspects of the former Catholic teachings.....
I only know what Christianity teaches.
And I don't mean the usual "Christian" religions.
I mean simple Christianity---knowing the Savior. I don't call that a religion at all; but it's sometimes hard for others to understand that concept.
I was brought up in the Catholic tradition and studied its theology fairly extensively, although as an amateur.
Catholicism teaches that babies who die before baptism are consigned to Limbo. Limbo, in my understanding, is not hell, but a sort of grey Underworld similar to that conceived by the Greeks and Romans.
I have a different viewpoint on the matter, but it doesn't fit with the teachings of a major denomination, so I will hold my peace.
If you don't know for sure, sometimes it's best to not say anything on the subject rather than risk spreading lies about a group of people.
The Catholic Church teaches no such thing.
I was told that by a former Catholic, actually by several, one of which left the Church because her child died and the Priest told her her baby wasn't in Heaven because she hadn't had the child baptized.
Maybe different Catholic Churches have differing rules, I dunno.
Yes I believe children are innocent and pure.
I like what Prabhupada the founder of Iskon says by giving an example of iron and fire two different elements.
You put iron into fire and it can burn you take on the qualities of fire, similarly who you associate with is bound to rub of on you.Associate with crooks and you will get crooked thoughts , associate with saints and you will have sainty thoughts.
I believe that 'sin' doesn't exist.
It's a control device by fear, through religion.
I'll agree that "sin" doesn't exist and it's a control device.
Religion in and of itself is about a code of ethics for living life. However, the code of ethics offered are detrimental to life.
Morality, defined by humankind is the truth of life. If you live a moral good or right life, then all your actions are for the benefit of humanity. This is an absolute FACT of the matter.
Sin is a religious term, perpetuated by religious/spiritual leader to enhance their control over people.
Hence, a child cannot be of sin(even in flesh), until they CHOOSE a moral value for their life. The moral value they choose is suppose to be taught by parents and passed down by generation, after generation.
Morality is NOT a natural occurance. It's taught by elders.
you have said yourself that the BIBLE varies in its meaning from church to church...... different teachings different meanings ....
ONE RELIGION - CHRISTIANITY ...... how can this be ??
which is the true bible please ?
It seems that everyone that believes in God will tell ya that with God all things are possible.
BUT..... Any opinion other than mine is totally wrong !!!
WHY does everything have to be either this is true or that is true but not both ?? What happened to all things are possible with God?
Were you talking to me, or who?
Anyway, the thing is--
All Churches and all denominations that carry on under the label of "Christian" aren't all followers of Christ....
many are deceived and drawn away from the fundamentals of the Word.....
Is this a quest for one-upmanship? Point scoring?
I believe that they are born sinless. In order to 'sin' you must choose the action. Being conceived is not a choice the baby gets to make. Being conceived in sin or not, again is not a choice the baby gets to make. Any 'sin' in the conception of the new life is that of the parents and only the parents. Until the new life has the ability to choose to be imoral it cannot 'sin'.
Saying that "Christians' are taught anything is to me an over-generalization, because 'Christians' can't even agree on what 'Christianity' is, which 'Version' of the Bible is correct, or even if that other church over there that says it is Christian is even christian or not (Catholics for example). What I have found is that 'Christians' will refer to themselves as 'True Christians' to seperate themselves from other discordant parts of their own faith. Therefore you will have almost any stance to any concept being said is true by this segment of 'Christianity' while being denied by this other segment of 'Christianity'. Each will offer the proof that they are correct and verify that truth with chapter and verse from their version of their Bible, which was edited to support their way of seeing that concept.
I have a question for you if you don't mind about Muslimism...
When humanity finally gets into space and is traveling from solar system to solar system... How will Muslims be able to pray? Which way is East while traveling in space?
hahaha very funny ......... but i see your point.... if we all live in space and there is no gravity ... hmmm well you have me on this one .
i really dont know the answer lol
In that case ,which is not probable that happens, East will be in the heart.
I'm an Atheist, but I have studied all religions.
so I know more or less how muslims feel.
but you have verified a point i am trying to make ...
we muslims live by one book ..the Qu'ran .. unaltered .. we are not allowed to change it.
but Christians have many books ... Bible... pertaining to be true..
but none is.. they have all be changed , interpreted misinterpreted.
there are so many Christians worshipping God but they cannot even agree on what is the most important part of their religion ... THE BIBLE...
The belief that any written word is infaliable is falacy to me. the Qu'ran was written by flawed human beings, an imperfect being cannot create perfection. (and you didn't answer my question)...
i did, but im new on this hubpage thing so i dont know if it went through.....
hahahahaha you have a point if indeed we do end up living in space then i dont know... but as tantrum has stated ,,,East would be in the heart.......
that is the place we keep Allah
It isn't Bible-believing Christians who say that the Bible's been altered. It's a lie of the Devil that's been perpetuated by people who are either wicked or confused.
It's, yes, a sad state of affairs.
But those who want to really know the Word will seek THE WORD (Jesus Christ), who is the Holy Spirit, who is God, and they will know the Truth.
It matters not to me if the Bible is mis-interpreted, because I still know it's true, and the Holy Spirit confirms it.
...I'm told that the original manuscripts aren't all in the King James version of the Holy Bible.....
and who tells me that?----people who refuse to search the KJV for its truths, people who want "something more".....when in fact that version is all they need. It has been preserved from generation to generation beginning with its original writing, and it's silly for people to make the "new" versions like the NIV or the other translations (just as it's silly to have a "Mormon" Bible) under the assumption that people aren't able to interpret the KJV.
The KJV 'edited version' isn't the original christian bible. In fact it was written(edited/changed) from the original circa 1500 years after the death of Christ, 1200 years after the birth of Christianity. If King James was a Roman King living in the time of Christ why was he a King of England? (a European Country on another Continent?)
King James was a homosexual who had a pile of religious hang ups he wanted to deal with. The KJV was written with an agenda, just as all bibles were.
yess they do seem to be trying to outsmart each other, each print is different.
i was raised a christian... very strict ... we read, were made to read the king james version.... that was very very different to the ones i see in print in the shops today.... in 20 or 30 years the words have been played with.I have heard the excuse so that people understand it more.... what are we a nation of morons? the majority of people today can read and write.we do not need things simplified.
so we have to conclude that the majority of the bibles in publication for the public have been misinterpreted.
like i said before the original scriptures were written in Hebrew. and how many ordinary people could read and write then to be able to interpret the word of God accurately.
LOL LOL LOL King James didn't write the Bible GOD did, so who cares what kind of hang ups KING James had.
Gods words were the original bible .... not the king james version is the point we are making
No, the point were making is that the Qu'ran is no more perfect than any of the Christian translations. The Qu'ran is just as flawed as any other written word because it was written by flawed human beings....
An imperfect being Cannot create perfection.
i always thought the people who "wrote" the bible just translated it. sort of "dumbed it down" for us mere mortals...
Those would be versions like the NIV and NLT, etc...
That implies that there is a manuscript out there somewhere that God or at least a non-human wrote, that the translators of this manuscript held it and read it and studied it and then wrote their interpretations of it in another manuscript. If such an 'original' manuscript ever existed I think it would have been preserved and would today be the main attraction in the Vatican or a museum. The truth is such a manuscript does not exist. The 'words' of God were sent to the minds of flawed humans who wrote what they thought, other flawed humans decided what to place in a manuscript that they named the Bible/Qu'ran/KJV/NIV/ETC/ETC...
God wrote the Bible? Or God inspired humans to write the Bible???
The Authorized King James Version is an English translation of the Christian Holy Bible begun in 1604 and completed in 1611 by the Church of England. Printed by the King's Printer, Robert Barker, the first edition included schedules unique to the Church of England; for example, a lectionary for morning and evening prayer. This was the third such official translation into English; the first having been the Great Bible commissioned by the Church of England in the reign of King Henry VIII, and the second having been the Bishop's Bible of 1568. In January 1604, King James I of England convened the Hampton Court Conference where a new English version was conceived in response to the perceived problems of the earlier translations as detected by the Puritans, a faction within the Church of England.
plllllease the king james version..... just another translation
the original papers that your book is based on were written in Hebrew.....
have you heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls
Yes I've heard of those.
I've heard Pastors do Bible Studies on those.
A Pastor who had researched the history and recorded content of those did a sermon on 'em at a Church I went to. He spoke of how the rumors are still around about how today's KJV has been changed, but that there's actually been no change in meaning, nor even in the wording that would make any difference at all.
so where did your king james version come from ? originally
It was translated under the reign of King James of England.
As far as the actual writing of it, there's a post above that describes it I suppose. But honestly, who knows what to believe as far as actual historical documents that attempt to place the exact positioning of the Word into some time box?!
I have a theory that, in 2090 or so (if the earth stands that long), a person who came across some "historical" writings by someone from today's time could....get the wrong idea if he found, say, some book that claims to be non-fiction when in fact it's fiction....like perhaps anything by Al Gore, etc. and took that as fact!
You may wonder how I can think that way and yet believe in the authenticity of the Bible.
It's because it rings true in my spirit. God is Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit that confirms Truth to those of us who have the Holy Spirit within us.
It was taught to me by parents and others who lived by that Book. That's another way to confirm it; although not all books can be confirmed that way, because anyone can live "by" any book they choose.
However, it is that intangible fact of Faith that leads me to not question the Word. Not only is it written in a way that can be understood in a common-sense approach, but its fundamentals are undeniably universal Truths.
It's a "living" document that allows understanding to those who seek understanding. Not a "changing" document, but a living one in that it contains the very words and instructions of God.
from what i can see of your writings Brenda you have a solid faith in what you believe, as do i . you and i believe it or not worship the same god ... the god of abraham, of the torah of the book of moses of the book of David the gospel and yess of the qu'ran.... so i respect you for your faith in God.
may god be with you insallah ( god willing )
....well, I do believe that YOU believe we worship the same God....so with that said....I do appreciate your salutation there!
My prayer for you would be that the Lord Jesus Christ would reveal Himself to you in a way that you will come to know Him and Love Him and make Him the Lord of your life. I hope that's not offensive to you, but I can't take it back....
And in mine, which is why I say that there are truths in all the versions of the Bibles including the Qu'ran... But none of them contain 'ALL' the truth, nor are any of them also without lies or misconceptions. They are all flawed, we simply have to find the flaws and try to correct them as best we can.
The Christian Bible was first penned in Rome Italy 300 years after the death of Christ. Prior to that the word of Christ was a verbally communicated affair.
The original Christian Bible was written by Roman Senators in Rome, Italy. The Roman Catholic Church was started in Rome. It is the only Christian Church/Faith in existence until the birth of the Prodestant Churches during the Reformation(1200 years later). The Reformation, a movement started by the German Roman Catholic Monk Martin Luther. Hence the first 'Protester' Church is the Luthern Faith. All other modern Christian Churches are off-shoots from this original split of 'The Church' of Christianity. In one of the many off-shoots of the Protester churches the King James Version of 'the' Bible was created (edited).
Latin was the language of choice for this new Christian religion (Roman Catholic Church)...because?
i believe both islam and christians .misrepresent the great idea of god to such a degree that their killing it
I believe it is disgusting to be using "sin" and "baby" in the same sentence... even if the sentence is "baby's have no sin" the very idea that it is even a question is hair-rising to us awful, dreadful non-adherents of Islam, Christianity, or whatever
I believe that only religious fanatics bother themselves with questions like this.
YES, I do not promote my work in these forums but I did go into detail on this subject in "Children Who Die". The Atonement of Christ bridged the gap between us and the Father. There is no original sin. The sin of the fathers cannot be answered upon the head of the child.
There are some people that are evil from day one. Its is in thier genes, brain blood, or whatever you want to call it.
Evil in genes is junk science debunked many years ago. There is no evil gene.
If you have ever held a new born baby in your arms, you will know that he/she is pure, innocent and completely free of guilt and sin. If Islam teaches this, then I take that aspect of Islamic belief on board.
The Catholic Church fills children with fear and guilt. This is cruel and has nothing to do with God, but everything to do with power, manipulation and control.
Yes Children are born sinless.
But their perception of the natural are greater that the spiritual and therefore will gravitate to the things that are natural, which leads to sin consciousness and ultimately death.
But there is truth which one recognise within him, can guide that one to free himself from the shackles of the nature of the nothing (flesh) which will eventually die or be swallowed up by immortality.
That one would find that He is an eternal Child of God.
does the sstatement " the sins of thy father shall be visited upon the son" answer this question?
...good try at denouncing the tenets of Christianity by this thread, but no go.
And it's not "multiple gods" or "partners with God".
It's one God, with 3 distinct but inseparable manifestations---Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
If you really would seek understanding, feel free to inquire further.
If not, then I leave you to your false gods Allah and Muhammad.
Allah is Jevovah and Jesus is Muhammad same thing divine messengers of god, please stop attacking each others religions it has been the cause of many ugly wars.
Don't speak silliness and anti-Biblical things and then try to caution me about attacking. The religion of Islam has been the cause of many ugly things including wars.
Is this not the problem with religion these days????? EVERY MAN regardless of belief should be accepted, forgiven, and that the christian way is not to denounce or to shun others but to attempt to show them the christian way through love and acceptance
The biggest problem ,my religion and prophet is the greatest and only true one all other prophets and religions are false.
The Christian way is the Biblical way, and that means standing up for the fact that the Christian God is the Creator, the God of Love, and the God of Judgement. It's pretty sickening how so many people, via "political correctness", want to make it impossible for a Christian to tell the Truth of God's Word freely and openly.
The Christian god is the Hindi god is the Muslim god all call god the divine light.
oh how foolish you are in not knowing that the God of you Christians and Allah is but one and the same.... i am not trying to
denounce anything by this thread as you accuse.... simply pointing out the difference....
Read my post more carefully .... and you will see that what was meant was a child is born sinless but can be encouraged into different beliefs be they of one god or multiple gods.....
Also you need to read more and verify you facts.. we in Islam do not worship Muhammad(pbuh)..... he is a prophet a messenger of God/Allah and as such cannot be worshipped ... we worship only Allah the same god as yourself!!
The God of the Bible says Jesus the Son is also God. He came in the flesh and walked among men.
Reconcile that to your Muslim belief, can you now?
jesus was a prophet sent by god to give the gospel to the israelites. yes he was of flesh and blood. we have the same prophets as you!!
show me where in your bible it says that jesus was god
John 1: 1-14:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jesus says me and my father are one.
If god is omnipresent then god is in all things,every human and not only the prophets.
Islam says even the prophets are limited while god is not which is the truth, or else Jesus would not have said father why have you forsaken me when he was on the cross.
Both philosophies are correct.
The essence of god permeates everything and everyone.
"I am the light" Jesus means I am god.
Yes but Jesus also says my heavenly father , I am the son of god.
Then god is omnipresent meaning all is god ,so both viewpoints are correct.
Allah and God are the same God... it's like making a distinction between Job & God. Muslims have the same God as Christians. Just like the Jews. The dispuit is more over Jesus. *shrug*
you hit the nail on the head there!
It is for sure Jesus about whom people argue the most.
It is no wonder why, because He IS the Name above all names!
I disagree...Without Jesus we still have God who is the greater. Without God Jesus becomes meaningless.
Not to me. How did Jesus get to outrank God Almighty? God passing on the family business or something. He's more like a greek god - part human. I like the stories attributed to Jesus. Boggles my mind that for all the import Christians put on Jesus, they don't seem to listen to a word he supposedly said?
Jesus was a messenger from God,,,, jesus is not God.
Good Lord... YAW....N -- Don't you people have something better to do with your time, for the love of, well, whoever (or whomever -- whichever... )
Not really. Not until Duke comes on. It reminds me of the time I forgot my Badger skate cap at a church I play basketball in. I came in wearing my Duke jacket that has a giant head of the devil mascot and a Sunday school class was going on. Those kids seemed a tad terrified. He's a good devil. A nice blue devil.
i think because you can put a face on Jesus. God is some mysterious faceless scary entity so far out of reach you just gravitate to the good-looking, cool guy with the long hair and unsassuming demeanor
...who doesn't look remotely Middle-Eastern... what's that about
Well....I'm not referring to "cool guy with long hair"....haha
But that IS why God sent that part of Himself in the form of Christ! Because us humans couldn't (or wouldn't) acknowledge the Love of God without it being shown visibly and vividly to us in human form.
God is one God in three manifestations. "They" are inseparable. To say that there's any sort of "competition" between them is incorrect.
Jesus said many things that are hard sayings to swallow and to live by. I for one can only pray to Him for wisdom and strength, and for Him to keep me....because I'm very unworthy of His Love and His gift of salvation....
John 10:30 is often used as proof that Jesus is God because Jesus said, “I and the father are one.” But, if you read the next six verses, you will find Jesus explaining that his enemies were wrong to think that he was claiming to be God. What Jesus obviously means here is that he is one with the Father in purpose. Jesus also prayed that his disciples should be one just as Jesus and the Father are one. Obviously, he was not praying that all his disciples should somehow merge into one individual (see John 17:11 and 22). And when Luke reports that the disciples were all one, Luke does not mean that they became one single human being, but that they shared a common purpose although they were separate beings (see Acts 4:32). In terms of essence, Jesus and the Father are two, for Jesus said they are two witnesses (John 8:14-18). They have to be two, since one is greater than the other (see John 14:28). When Jesus prayed to be saved from the cross, he said: “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22:42).
This shows that they had two separate wills, although Jesus submitted his will to the will of the Father. Two wills mean two separate individuals.
Jesus never told people to worship him. At John 4:23-24, he said: "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." Also Jesus said in Matt. 4:10, "Thou shall worship the Lord, thy God, and only him thou shall serve."
Jesus also advised those desiring to get their opinions read to write in paragraphs (I think that was Jesus)
This thread is exactly why I do not attend church, I do not participate in organized religion and I do not worship outside of my own home. I believe in god, I worship, I pray, and guess what, I don't give a portion of my earnings to some church that spends it on fancy stained glass windows and shiny silver collection plates, I don't have to listen to people preach about who is right and who is wrong or why one religion is better than another. There is as much hate and war over religion as there is for any other reason on earth. If each of those individual religous groups would understand that we are all here to live together on ONE earth under ONE heaven and to worship ONE god and to be ACCEPTING AND FORGIVING of each every human being the world would be a happier place.
i agree with you and the basic laws of islam promote just that but as you have said unfortunately there are many people around that would use what should be a peace creating force to encourage war...
and human atrocities throughout the world...
it seems to be against human nature to be able to discuss without condemnation.
yess i am muslim ...... yess i believe in Allah, Jehovah, God and yes i believe that at the end of the day we will all stand and be judged..
Imagine everything below this text is the church.
It stops here at the beginning of this line. If you notice there is one tiny dot somewhere in the middle. Nearly everyone looks at the tiny dot and refuses to look at the whole church.
If you don't want to give to a church, then don't do it, but don't use the church as an excuse not to give.
The reason I don't often attend church is because few of them have the guts to teach the Truth anymore.
they're all too political. well, most of them. weirrrrd. i thought church was for spiritual restoration and comfort, and communing with God.
...and for fishing for men's souls to come to Christ; that's the original and main purpose, one that's often shoved aside today.
that's too bad.
out here we have some really old missions, which served as houses of worship and sanctuaries for weary travelers and anyone seeking spiritual comfort. they are very simple but beautiful in their simplicity. i love the old churches, even ones with stained glass art and icons galore. they are few and far between though. many of the places where people go for Sunday services are lit with fluorescent lighting and devoid of any religious art at all, and the pastor talks about who to vote for instead of preaching the word, which is a shame.
I always loved the beautiful stained-glass and atmosphere of some churches, too. I think the older Catholic Churches, for instance, are gorgeous and very Holy-looking (I guess that's the way I describe it) but the fact is that it doesn't matter what the Church looks like; it only matters that the Holy Spirit is invited there; and the Catholic Churches for the most part are still susceptible to idol-worship upon those same statues and paintings etc.
...Personally, I think Pastors could (if they would) preach the Word and also counsel the congregation on political matters.
...if Pastors actually stood on the truths of the Bible....
yeah. the romantic ideal of a pastor is one of a friendly, guileless patriarch watching over his flock. it's funny that the only thing i took with me from my childhood from that experience are the aesthetics of the imagery, icons and architectural details, and the appreciation for Latin recitations, and in my mind's eye, i still see Jesus on the walls, smiling, his hands outstretched, palms open in a welcoming gesture. but all the doctrine and dogma, it went out the window
any my memory of the priests is that they were snobby and looked down on us, and my memory of the nuns is that they were scary and mean and cold.
True that is the core of all religions man uniting with god.
I believe that you take with you all of your experiences from your past lives and karma works to help you balance out your good and bad actions. Every time you reincarnate, you have the opportunity to rebalance. So I guess the baby is born sinless for its current life but brings his/her sins from past lives. Sort of a balancing act...
well there are 2 of us that can accept that and hope for peace...what are the chances we can get a few billion people to join us.
No, caz the baby touched Va-J-J before it was married.
"My invisible fairy is better than your invisible fairy! Na na na!"
Is that why many religious people refuse to believe that someone is born gay? Because according to them being gay is a sin and babies are sinless??
Babies are NOT sinless according to religion.
All humans of flesh are sinners/evil. They say the core of humans is evil.
This is a contradiction to morality of life. Because, it's pre-judged every single person on the planet and collectively demoralize their character, so as to control the way people think.
SIN is a religious term and encompasses all, undefined, except to say it is evil.
Morality is a human term and defined.
I was referring to this question. Do you need me to elaborate more about this one?
Thank you Brenda! Can you answer my previous question too?
I suppose that could be a reason, yes.
Babies are born innocent, so yes it follows that they wouldn't be "born gay".
Ok, what about twins? That grow up to be gay. It is still a choice, according to Christianity, for the both of them?
i am sorry but according to both the bible and the qu'ran homosexuality is a sin
So, just because the Bible and the Qu'ran shares some similarities, do you think that makes them the same "religion"?
You don't have to be sorry. Neither are my religion. I understand that it is a sin. I'm just trying to understand why. It doesn't make sense to me. To me it is hypocritical.
It is written that a man has nothing to be proud of. If he/she is attrative or inteligent or strong etc these things are a gift from God. And yes even faith. We can not even be proud of ourselves for our faith for it is written that God gives faith to whoom ever he will.
I can not see God causing anyone that he did not give faith to burning them in hell for ever for not having faith??
I just know it in my heart; that religion has interpretated many things that is written in scripture totaly out of context.
As a Christian, saved by the grace of GOD I try to stay away from the "religion" posts because it's all so depressing but once in a while I'll take a peek and today I feel I have to say something.
For one thing I rarely see anything based on fact. it's always somebodies opinion. I would really like to know how many people who are so against God and the Bible have actually sat down and read it or actually listened to an honest sermon or had a bible study to get the facts?
I see and hear so many people everywhere spouting off about something they obviously know nothing about except that they have a personal right to be ignorant and show it very well most of the time.
Yes everybody has a right to their opinion but don't go off on something you have no personal knowledge of. How can anyone give a "book report" on a book they have never read. I'm talking about the King James not the NIV or NISV or any of the others that were, incidentally, COPIED from the King James and CHANGED because some man didn't like the truth God put forth about his sinful state.
For Pity sake people if you don't believe after searching the truth out for yourself then fine but don't take some ill formed opinion that happens to be the current most popular and make it your truth.
It's your life that's at stake and where you spend it. and believe me Hell is not a party with your friends for all eternity. It ends in the lake of fire where the heat is so hot it's black and you WILL BE consious of the terrifying pain forever. Think about it. the Bible was written over a period of 1600 years and was written by men INSPIRED of God. No man in his right mind would have written a book depicting himself so wretchedly. Why do you think we have so many fake bibles that were written by man with all the bad stuff taken out saying we are all good and everyone is fine there is no hell and your god is what ever you want it to be and so on.......That's what people want to hear and believe because it's our nature to be bad and hey being bad is fun right.....
I'm not trying to force God on anybody I'm just so sick of the herd mentality that sends so many people to Hell. Read the Book and if there's something you don't understand find somebody you trust and ask.
i have read your book .... read it for 45 years and got fed up with the lies and the hypocrisy for me i know i have found peace and happiness with Allah / God through Islam.... yess it is a personal choice and it is not islamic to try to force anyone to the faith so i would not even try to.
we all have to find our own way ....as i have found mine.
There is no mediator between God and man. There is no need of one, for God, the All knowing, can listen and answer our sincere prayers regardless of our state and place. Salvation comes through submitting to the pure belief in One God and following His guidance as revealed in the Quran, and not through the vicarious sacrifice (murder) of an innocent human being. Thus Islam is a rational religion based on justice and self accountability, and not on unjust and mysterious doctrines formulated by humans. Islam provides solutions to all the ills plaguing humanity.
Isn't the Qu'ran a mysterious doctrine formulated by humans?
Yep! Apart from having a few more abusive hate filled threats than the bible they are fundamentally the same.
"My insecure neurotic little god must be worshipped or I'm gonna punish you forever!"
Same insane threats and agenda!
to be honest there are more horrors and punishments in the bible than in the qu'ran.... the old testament is full of them.
it is the undefiled world of God,just as Jesus was sent as a messenger to the Israelites with the Gospel, because they no longer kept to the book of Moses, Muhammad was given to us as a prophet by Allah so that we may be saved as the Christians had also defiled the word of God in the gospel.
Muhammad was given the word of Allah ....the Qu'ran.
with the order that it was not to be defiled, translated or changed.so that we may find salvation.
The bible as it was assembled from the hundreds of candidates (writings) for inclusion into the canon were included because about 300 diffrent men could agree upon including those that has come to be known as the bible.
Just because all 300 of these men could not agree to include a particular writing does not make them any less inspired by God.
I do agree that there is enough knowledge written in the bible to understand what truth is. Mans interpretations of what it says even today most often is diffrent than what is actually written in it.
my idea of god doesn't participate in either of those endeavors
there is no compulsion for man to accept the TRUTH. But it is certainly a shame upon the human intellect when man is not even interested in finding out as to what is the TRUTH!.
Because people are bored, mean, and live in a fantasy land. Why think about how you could've improved your own life when you can throw others' sins in their face LOL.
How? By starting the thread
Why? Because to millions and millions of people it is a very interesting subject matter. It is inspirational and complex and very stimulating.
This thread has me believing many have never held a new born baby.
Nothing sinful there!
Here we go! An argument about why the impossible is more right than the totally unbelievable! Time for a coffee!
Yes. Isn't it shocking how, otherwise, intelligent people can actually have a heated discussion about imaginary beings! And can't save themselves from themselves.
Cat Stevens is alive and well and on the US no-fly-list, thank you very much
What is even more amazing is that otherwise inteligent people can not take their eyes off of it while those other, otherwise inteligent people are argueing over those things?
Did I say that out loud???
You said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud
Because the explanations and rebuttals are very comical. It's like watching a science-fiction comedy.
and maybe we are learning sumtin wether we realize it or not??
We're not learning anything about God, because thats fantasy, but we are learning a hell of alot about human psychology.
I don't care what ya call it. There is something more than this.
But we, as mortals, do not know. I accept that. The problems arise whenever one does not accept that. Hence the insanity of these discussions.
If I had had a camera I woulda took a pic of it.
there is one thing beyond precious in life . it carry's hope in its tiny hands. and were killing 40 million of them a year world wide. who is the sinner? certainly not the child.
Thanks for the injection of common sense. Those of us who are parents and grandparents know this. Children are the future, and anything that happens to them hurts all of us who care.
Cat Stevens was Greek, I guess he still is, come to think of it
Cat Stevens? A friend of mine used to work for his hotel, does that count
I answered that earlier in a post.
Sorry; maybe you're asking someone else.....
much like Jesus claimed he and the father are one the people here on earth should follow that same believe and every human being should be one with god...not saying everyone should actually be god I think the one we have is plenty capable
I also believe that no matter what your path of worship ultimately everyone worships the same god. some just do it differently. Like I said before I do not participate in church or organized religion, I believe in god and pray and worship, god doesn't care how you worship him, he doesn't care if you are going to a big fancy church or kneeling at your bedside. If god can be so care free and accepting of us and all of our sins why can't we all be that way with each other.
God isn't carefree about sin, though. That's an issue a lotta people don't like to deal with.....so they claim He's a benign God who accepts anything they wanna do....
I didn't say he was carefree about sins, I said god is carefree in general, he is a forgiving and accepting god who will bring all who follow and worship into his kingdom
Yes, heaven forbid we believe that God is benign. Or beneficent. Or benevolent
If God is all-knowing, and yours supposedly is... then he knew ahead of time that this would be going on and who would be doing it. He knew Eve would take the Apple. Why even bother with the whole human experiment? I have a hard time with a god who has anger management issues. Why would he need to flex the muscle so? And where is he now? He was ever so active in the past with all the baby drownings and talking through bushes. And it seems the devout are the worst (see Pat Robertson). Isn't God going to be more pissed at the followers than us poor heathens? I'm more tolerant and forgiviing than the Christian God... how could that be? I wouldn't send Brenda to hell for her beliefs, she's following her best path. But her vision of God damns me to hell for now cow-towing to Jesus. And I'm just doing what Brenda is doing. Using my free will to make my best decisions. God will fault me for that? Seems unreasonable.
That is exactly my point, God is forgiving and accepting, god is not what Brenda and many other Christians make him out to be. Many people use god as a tool to make people follow thier path, for example the ones who say "you will go to hell if you don't follow the way I follow or believe what I believe, and worship the way I worship" I am sorry but the God I believe in is not that way.
My mom was a Christian. I was a Christian. I have no beef with Christians, per say.
It's not just what I believe. It's what God says. And yes He will be madder at us Christians IF we don't follow Him and tell the Gospel to unbelievers.....
I'm sure you ARE a forgiving and tolerant person; that's nice; it's nice to know that you care about people's feelings, including mine I would think? But it's not just about feelings; it's about human souls....
It would be so good to know that you and others actually cared about the state of my soul, your soul, and every human's soul.....but then, if you did that, you'd .....be a Christian, wouldn't you?
i think you can care about those things withour being a Christian.
I don't worry about souls, because there might not be such a thing. But I'm glad you are such a humanitarian as to be concerned, IF there was such a thing as a soul.
Besides here is an interesting thought to ponder...
what if God gave each region of earth their own form of Jesus, for example god gave some Allah some Jehovah some Buddha and some Jesus and the intention was not for each of them to create a religious battle but to bring all humans together from thier specific area of the earth to worship the ONE god who created all. Just like there are different races and different languages there can be different religions with the same purpose
I can agree with that. Different regions have diffrent spices for their foods. Why wouldn't God mix it up a little bit in how to reach diffrent intellects with diffrent forms of vocabulary in attempting to deliver the same message?
For a taste of what a Greek sound like when he grows up in London: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJoSXIeEwk4
I don't have any issue with christians, Like I have said I am a believer and I worship god and all of that, I do not agree with the many who preach it as a stiff, unforgiving, and narrow minded religion because from what I have read and learned it is not those things, FYI if anyone is bored with this topic some idiot elsewhere has a thread about having sex with relatives....LMAO
you know the best thing about babys? they dont know this god person. their blessed that way
How can someone who doesn't believe in everlasting punishment for the sinner's soul ...actually CARE about anyone's soul?
?????????????????????? How about the simple emotion of compassion, with no agenda or need for external justification or reason for that compassion attached
Because....if you cared about me, but it was only for the period of time while I live on earth, and you didn't care about where my soul would spend eternity, then ya might as well not care about me at all, right?
I would say that if I was uncertain of what happens after death (in fact "agnostic" by definition... meaning I don't think I can ever know this), but still believed that promotion of another's welfare was important, and defined "soul" as that place where a person can hurt, can experience joy, can "commune with God" (whatever that means... have experiences we normally term "spiritual") then yes I am caring about their soul...
...even if I believed (which I don't necessarily) that the soul dies when the brain ceases to have electrochemical energy
You sound like a person who wants it all or nothing? I can honestly say that I love every person on the planet, and I would rather see no harm ever come their way.
However, you are making ONE huge assumption? It isn't supported by an factual evidence, regardless of what religion says about "GOD" or whomever.
NO ONE, including you, knows what happens when death comes. And, you know what? When you do die- neither will you. Your consciousness will have faded and their will be no energy left in your body. The energy I am talking about is the brain impulses in your brain, NOT a soul.
When your brain impulses STOP, you're dead. You are permanently unconscious forever.
If you GOT PROOF, then share it with world. Until then, what you have is HOPE I'M RIGHT?
That is it. No offense.
I thought so, you have to be scared in to doing good!
I find most people do good because they are good, not because they are scared.
It's not just a fear of God's judgement (which I do have, thankfully)....
It's also two more things----I have a conscience,
and it's that I had to actually see and know what "good" and "bad" IS before I knew to make a choice between them.
hmmm....okay....I was just asking.
I still don't understand exactly, but thanks for the responses...
I'd like to ask a musical question
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsRGH4O4 … xt_from=PL
what is the age of accountability that Brenda mentioned? what about the boys from Southpark apparently thats why they made that show because they wanted to show how bad kids are lol
No, they are totally self absorbed and just cry all the time and want food, nappy changes and entertaining all day long.
the sins of the father are passed to the son however, the son shall not pay the price for those sins. That is actually how the bible reads.
# (Exodus 20:5) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
# (Deuteronomy 5:9) - "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,"
# (Exodus 34:6-7) - "Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations."
1. (Deuteronomy 24:16) - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."
2. (Ezekiel 18:20) - "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself."
I agree, SirDent & Has_aWayWithWords, to all your scriptural backings. Yes, as far as judgements in the flesh these things are obviously passed through the generations that is true. My initial response dealt primarily with salvation of a child in connection with sin. Children are "alive in Christ". Especially when dealing with subjects of baptism and the remission of sin a child should not be forced into such a personal ordinance. When that child arrives at an age of personal accountability then the ordinance can be taken upon oneself. However, as far as "original sin" as in Adam and Eve, no, the Savior's Infinite Atonement healed this valley.
That is correct, I never said a child was born into the original sin, only in the sin of his father, or three to four generations backwards. Sin carries through the family for the stated number of generations, thereofre it would be logical to state that unless four generations of your family were perfect and sinless we all have carry the sin.
Your definitive derivation of mathematics reminded me of something:
"And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'"
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