Atheism Rules !
I think we need 6 more pages
Any one would think this thread was taking up too much time to maintain
We seem to have had a few solid attacks that then withered and died.
It's interesting - I think LOLI was actually hoping one of our resident JWs would join in the discussion
Although I am not sure there is any such thing as a common-or-garden variety christian. I myself am aware of dozens of different varieties. Ranging from the ones who think eating shrimp is a sin to the ones we have seen here.
LOL
Put a link if it's relevant. The only ones I have a go at are the new guys here to promote their hub in a non-relevant forum thread. Or they start oneLooks like I missed a lot over the weekend! Expecting a baby any day now tends to take away from my ability to sign on and participate on a regular basis. Here are a couple of thoughts of mine:
Mark:
I think there are several points at which we're miscommunicating, but I don't think it will be fruitful to flesh them out as we are almost out of flesh at this point! I think we disagree on the main points, though, and I'm glad we can agree on that!
At several times in your one, long thread you posted to me on page 34, you said, "It doesn't make sense." I don't think everything will ever make sense 100%. And that's for all camps- Christian, atheist or otherwise. I can't sit here and say everything makes sense just as atheists can't make sense of where the original "material" or "stuff" or "_____" came from with which the evolutionary process began. I think, as a Christian, this is where faith comes to play.
Also at several times in that same post you said, “You scare me.” I lost count of the times it was said, in bold print or otherwise! Regardless, I don’t know what to say in regards to that.
Here are some of my final comments with regards to our evolution vs. creation conversation:
I think it’s important for me to reiterate my intentions- I have not desired to change anyone’s mind or “convert” anyone. To attempt to do so would be foolishness and I’ll be honest, it’s not something I (or anyone else on here) can do! It is beyond my ability to convert someone to belief in God or creationism.
My intentions have been to contribute to a healthy, constructive conversation centered on the origin of life (which I believe builds upon the discussion of atheism). And, with the exception of a few times in which parties have gotten a little personal, I think we’ve had that. As I feel I have already said what I felt was necessary to say concerning creationism, I have nothing left to offer on the topic.
Mark, Thom and Jenny-
Thank you. I have appreciated everything you’ve discussed with me. You have brought to the discussion different links, arguments and thoughts that have really challenge me. I maintain high levels of respect for each one of you. I wish I could adequately emphasize my high regards for each of you, but unfortunately I am limited to the works of the keyboard and your interpretations! In an effort to express that, I will include lots of smileys:
Thank you also to the others who have contributed in one form or another (Jenny, Misha, Gamergirl, DJ funk, sprinkerman, peter, etc.)
So, that is where I'm at with the conversation! I'll continue to participate, but believe that putting to rest our debate on creation/evolution would be fruitful. Not retreating or giving up, but resting.
How about those rules of atheism?I hope the proud papa will do us the favor of posting pictures when they are available so that we can all dote.
Blessings to you guys.
WC -
Even though my responses to the thread didn't really seem to push it along more than a hair, I'm glad to have been a part of it.
My fiance pointed something fun out to me, (he's an Agnost.) He said - searching for proof that God doesn't exist is not the purview of an atheist. Belief isn't proven, it just -is-.WC -
I was just telling you how I feel, and attempting to explain why you will probably continue to run into passionate debate on this issue. I agree it's probably left where it is and hope to continue various other discussions as we go
I tried to explain why I find it scary as best I could. And it doesn't require a response. I also think there are other people who find it scary and are less able to express themselves. If anything, I was hoping it would help you understand when you come onti contact with some one else who argues passionately against you. But most people, like myself, will only really argue when this fake science is used to back the claim up.
As I said, I have no problem with anyone believing just about anything they choose to believe. I do, on the other hand, have a problem with people (such as the website you mentioned) actively promoting fake science to back up their beliefs. I personally find that abhorrent and scary.
If some one believes that all science is BS and they prefer the literal bible version - not a problem for me. I don't understand it, but there you go. If we were all the same, life would be extremely boring. The problem comes when this version is preached in a church, or people attempt to have this taught in schools as just as valid a scientific method as evolution. It's a faith-based belief rather than a science -based belief. And I think it should be taught as such.
I guess that's all I can say on this and don't want to start the argument up again
gamergirl - this whole forum was your idea if I remember correctly, so you now have to help us hit the longest forum thread in the history of hubpages.
So, the rules don't come until we reach that, but I will throw this out and see what you think.
"My life is far simpler, with less worrying about following conventions and religious doctrine. Knowing, as I do, that there is no such thing as God had made my life better - because I can listen to myself instead of what some church tells me."Mark, cute picture. I will reply when I get back to my computer.
Mark,
That's a very atheist statement you quotation marked at me.
ATHEISM RULES!
*dives back into the shadows*- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
0I thought there weren't any rules to Atheism.
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
Defected, not defective LOL
Don't go all christian on methat's too funny, i was just thinking the same about you.
Hey, saying you defected and that you're defective are two TOTALLY different animals.
I think Sandra is just messing with me
I hoped, thus the sticking out tongue smiley.
Jenny - One of the entertaining things is the suggestion that lack of belief in god is some how about being close-minded
Sandra - If that chariot ever arrives, I will be leading the Inquisition.No, WC, you and Peter have displayed equal grace with Sandy, in my eyes at least.
I was referring to the ones who started out trying to prove to Mark that atheism (or evolution, which they equated with atheism) was wrong.
It seems to me that you entered the conversation with goodwill, and you have explored the available information about evolution and learned things - this hasn't changed your mind, nor would I expect it to, but it has earned you the respect of intelligent people of all belief systems.
Jenny
I am not so sure anyone was trying to change my mind in the first place. Every one knows atheism rules, so what's the point?
Is that how you see it, or do you see people defending their own beliefs?
And I have to say Jenny - next time I need something scientific explaining to me, I am asking you firstLOL
I can't imagine wanting to live forever. I know how much my 46 year old body hurts in the morning and am dreading the 75 year old version.
And you are in for a nasty surprise when you go to collect your next go at life - this is it - don't waste it. Wildcard beats the trump
I do agree about the frustration though .
True
...in reference to your last statement. Actually, all of the above statements are true Love ya, Thom,
I remember when one's professed atheism was an affront to me. It was very confusing at first. But I actually have to be grateful for that interaction with that atheist. Becuase it was that confusion from his professed atheism, at affronted me so, that honed me in to my deepest soul awareness and propelled me in my search for Truth. when I came to realize that the confusion was in my head and not my heart/soul, I realized a mercy for one such as he, that had lost his connection with a grateful and joyful sense of soul within himself.
At first I felt pity for him, then I realized that all come around eventually, or not, and that was his choice, and that my ability to love and accept him where he was at, made a difference on some level.
I am not responsible for where he is, but was responsible for how my feelings about him could affect him on some level. So I chose to take my responsibility as a part of the universe, as I am connected to all of it and everyone.
Love is the answer!
I happen to agree with you, Thom. If I didn't believe in the God I know I would believe in nothing (in terms of a creator), a wonderful cosmic coincidence, or perhaps not coincidence given probabilities and all. I mean I agree, your position would be my default.
Jenny, I'm not entirely sure who your comment was directed at, but this non-atheist brother has not been trying to change anyone's mind.
Mark, there should be no stress, my brother. Jesus came to set people free from stress, among many other things.
Oh, and the Shakespeare picture was cute. Here is Gen. 1.1:
And here is John 1:1.
If anyone is interested:
http://www.biblewheel.com/default.asp
Again, not my area of expertise, but it is interesting and worth checking out.I know brother Peter
- I have found another way. And I have said before, there are many ways of interpreting the words Jesus was supposed to have spoken. You are in a minority in reading them this way.
But I hadn't seen this particular mathematical interpretation. To be honest, the Kaballah lends itself to this sort of analysis far better. I think it has something to do with the alphabet used. After 2,000 years - still no answers - or at least, no answers they would share with a gentile such as myself.
I don't even want to go into how funny I find it that there is this new kaballah religion in the US. If ever there was an esoteric version - this is it. Want to buy a wrist band? Only $50 -
If you haven't seen it yet, this film is worth a look:
Pi
Can't work out how to link the website to the image - stress man !
My point was - you can draw mathematical inferences from any piece of written work, and not to read much into it.
Good example though.Once again, we will have to agree to disagree. And these go back to before the written word even:
http://www.blazelabs.com/f-u-free.asp
http://www.sacredsites.com/africa/egypt … ramid.html
http://www.goldenmuseum.com/0302Pyramids_engl.html
http://members.aol.com/stoneequation/
Mathematics has not only been around longer than writing, it is something that exists naturally.
I even threw in an extra linkThis hardly predates the written word as it seems to be placed and dated from Egypt after the Hebrews had been there. The Hebrew alphabet predates this. Archeologists have found ancient Hebrew writings spanning from Egypt across the Sinai Peninsula and up through Israel dating well before this.
But, I will let your Mormon buddies know you are citing their texts.
Yes, excellent examples of ancient mathematics...although they don't quite satisfy the other criteria, do they?
A+ for effort though.LOL
No, but they demonstrate the fact that there are mathematical equations in, not only writing, but many other places. Such as leaves. And some of these have been around considerably longer than the bible. Thought you would enjoy the extra link. Still waiting for THE TRUTH to arrive.
I do not assume divinity when I see that these mathematical patterns exist.
Plus, there is as much disagreement over these as the basic words.
Thom - You can borrow this if you like
:
How about every one else takes your turn at changing the diaper?
No - I mean if YOU win, everyone else takes your turn
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
I will tell you one comment my dad made to a proclaimed atheist: It went something like this: " If I, as a believer am wrong, then I have done no harm and lived a good life. If you on the other hand are wrong; then will you be in sorrow as you face your God? Regret? Fear? Grief? Trepidation? Wanting to go back and re-do, re-live? Of the two; which position would you rather be in?
For those who believe, they are just as convinced of His existance - not all that "is" is tangible - nor does it have to be, for believers. The choice, of course is yours. I'm not arguing that fact. For me, He is.LOL - It will be when they discover that there is no God
Not seen that yet. But it sounds like my kind of worship.
What works for you is not the same as what works for the next guy. Apparently, you understand the words much better than anyone else. This was not my point. My point was that many people interpret that particular version of the bible in this way. Right, wrong or in between, I feel sorry for them.
This is life. Now. Take it or leave it, there is nothing else afterwards.
If this particular scripture (and I assume you are referring to your particular version of the bible rather than the original version?) is objective, rather than subjective why is your version so different?
And why is there so much disagreement? Or is that because everyone else is just reading it incorrectly? And your way is the right way? Sounds rather subjective to me.
Unfortunately, there is no god. Only man's version of events twisted to suit the day's requirements. Sorry.
Guess what? What works for you - does not work for me. I have seen the light.
And I say unto you:
Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
Peace. Quote that rubbish to me, I will quote it right back.Well, I suggest to you that it is all but impossible not to quote a 2,000 year old fairy tale written by bronze age peasants out of context.
Are we getting it yet? Allow me to interpret - I think you are a false teacher. You came into this discussion quoting out of context - and didn't even bother to quote the text itself - you just placed a reference without even saying which particular version of the fairy tale you were quoting from. This is not only lazy, it is also assuming that I, and the others on this thread would take the time to look up your poorly-thought-out reference. (Which Jenny has already pointed out some of the flaws in.) And it would appear that you do not know the difference between subjective and objective, because you accuse me of things rather than addressing my genuine argument. Objective? Why the disagreement amongst christians then?
This is called irony. Another word for you to look up in the dictionary. I really wonder why I cast my pearls before such swine, although I hope you will take this as a learning experience and buy a truly good book. May I respectfully suggest the Oxford English version?
I know it is not hard to make a young child believe a lie. This is why I think the bible should not be taught in schools other than as an interesting folk tale. And I do not need to use any cleverly designed arguments. It's a very simple argument actually. Open your mind and you will see it is true.
Not sure what you mean by "people like me," but I certainly find that tone offensive.
No doubt tthis response will "prove," my heart to you and you can cast me out, or do whatever it is you book tells you to do with unbelievers.
In the meantime - perhaps you would answer my question:
If the scripture in the bible is truly objective - why is there so much argument over the meaning?
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
What she said.
(apart from the bit about there being a god)
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
this is what I think when it comes to you Mark. concerning scripture.
that when God comes, those who have not yet believed will have thier time to shine.
So...
Everything you say is perfect. Can't argue with a person for saying. I will believe it when I see it. So until then, carry on brotha man.
Atheism rules until God comes and says otherwise. - sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
Everybody is waiting for Mark to post rules, and chatting meanwhile
Eh, I've tried to contribute.. no result. So, I'm just furthering the goal of 40 pages.
Sorry gamergirl - I was defending the un-faith against the non-righteous on too many fronts at the time.
And I think it's 42 pages
Possibly, but science also indicates the same thing. Global warming, Planet X etc. Unless the everything is a lie. Everyone is going to die eventually, at some point in time. As for the destruction of the world, that will eventually happen, no one knows when. But I think it is actually something that should be agreed on.
Knowing that it will happen one day, maybe another million years from now would mean that it is all true. So the stories will go on until it's time.
Plus, there isn't anything wrong with people taking comfort in believing that Jesus is going to scoop them up. I think it makes death more approachable.
No one knows what happens after death accept what we can see here, so it doesn't mean that it isn't true.
I don't think it is a scare tactic, I think it more like, distasteful delivery of the message, no tact.
When I think about it, I can say that there doing it because they really want you to not go to Hell. However, the way it comes across is anything but delightful or heart warming etc.
And usually ending with go to hell.
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
Paraglider has already said that this is a long post and I don't want to requote the entire thing, or repeat what paraglider stated - so I will just pick on this snippet.
You use the word truth incorrectly. This is the dictionary definition of the word:
Conformity to fact or actuality.
A statement proven to be or accepted as true.
Sincerity; integrity.
Fidelity to an original or standard.
These truths you speak of are not actually truths.
I have friends. I am not even going to tell you how offensive it is that you would even say such a thing. It seems extremely unchristian of you.
I am married and love my wife.
I am an upstanding member of my community.
I even love my neighbor on occasion - or at least tolerate him
I know many "christians," who do not meet these criteria.
You are completely missing the point. And I feel sorry for you. You do not need to believe in god to feel or show love. There is love without god.
You seem to equate being a good person with being a christian. LOL I am not even going to,once again list the atrocities and barbarities done in the name of god. LOL But there is a whole 'nother thread covering that.
I did not say you need therapy - I said I felt sorry for you. And it wasn't in this thread that you posted that the resurrection is what makes life bearable. I still feel sorry for you. Rather than just accepting what ever gets thrown at you in this life and saying to your self, "Well, it doesn't matter - It will all be OK in the next life," is a complete misunderstanding of both the bible and the meaning of life. Now, if you want to talk about a waste.....
I suggest you think before replying. There is no rush and you can edit your text.
- sandra rinckposted 16 years ago0
You sure it's not bait?
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