In Ireland at the moment - confirmation is taking place all over the country - this is where Catholic children aged about 11/12 go through a procession of being confirmed as Catholics - during the ceremony the Children are forced to Kiss the ring on the Bishops finger - this symbolising his marrage to God - is this forcing of children to kiss the Bishops ring acceptabl;e in the modern day and in light of what we now know about many Catholic Priests, Bishops and others............
Sure, like any good tragedy, it is a prelude of things to cum.
I have no idea what the symbology is in kissing a Bishop's ring. One thing I would ask is how do yo uknow they are being forced to do it?
Off hand I would say kissing a ring is a pagan practice. It goes against God and Jesus Christ.
This may seem like such a little thing..
How many LITTLE things are being taught wrongly.
How much of a cross wind does it take to cause the arrow to miss the bulls eye; let alone the whole target or barn that it is hanging on?.
Sir Dent, your statement is valid, of course, regarding whether or not children were "forced." As they become adults, those who turn against the church for whatever reason will conclude that at some level, they were most likely put in what they felt was nearly an impossible situation of pleasing their parents and the church at the time. They did what they had to at the time, in order to be safe and relatively happy. Forced at gunpoint or by sword, obviously not, but there is usually some kind of pressure associated with these things. Changing one's mind is often based on experience and fact, and we do have that right, of course.
I totally agree with you on questioning whether these children are actually being "forced".
I'm not for or against Catholics, but as a Christian group, I do find their heavily ritualistic practices rather hypocritical.
...tell the child drop his pants, "moon" the bishop and YOU tell the bishop to kiss his ass!...fair exchange? I think so!
The bishop may enjoy that!
I say that knowing the molestation history of catholic prelates!
Then get wise, and get your child out of monotheistic belief!
Ah....., very good question you've asked here. You know I always taught my son, that it was ok if he didn't want to sit on someone's lap, or hug someone, or talk to a relative, or even smile at one of friends if he didn't want to. That it was ok to stay in a comfortable place, where he felt safe.
I taught him that it was okay to have personal boundaries, and if someone made him feel uncomfortable, well he didn't have to put up with it. As a Catholic myself, I was forced to do a lot of things, that I was uncomfortable with. Confession for one, was a big source of anxiety for me. However, I don't think the Church will change this tradition. It is ingrained in us, and it is also a sign of respect to the Fathers of our particular religion.
I didn't make my son do anything he didn't feel comfortable with. I took him out of Catholic school when he was 11. Besides that though, I do think that in this day and age, kids should not be forced to do anything like that.
Confirmation is supposed to represent a conscious choice to enter the faith unlike at baptism where it is your parents' choice. This unfortunately is rarely the case. I think the kissing of the ring must feel like a demeaning ritual for those children - especially if in their own minds they are not doing this by choice, but by parental and peer pressure.
Centuries ago (and in many cultures today) children entered adulthood at sexual maturity.
This catholic ritual is a hearkening back to those times.
No eleven- to twelve-year-old today is capable of making that decision with conscious choice. They do it because they are pressured into it by the church.
I am not opposed to confirmation and all its hypocritical manifestations. Rather, I think it's an opportunity for the family to join together for the sake of the child, an opportunity to have an open conversation about life and to celebrate a passage from childhood into emerging adulthood.
There are few rites of passage as disciplined as this. I think parents need to look at all the ramifications for the sake of their children's welfare, and not rely on the church to do the educating.
As I mentioned in a post below, I was confirmed at 11. What you said here is the first I've heard of anything like this. My parents said nothing about anything before Confirmation because they left that up to the church folks and classes. In Confirmation classes we were told we were going to decide to be "soldiers of God" . That seemed fine enough to me. ("Who wouldn't want to agree to be a 'soldier of God'? I thought.) The responsibilities of being a "soldier of God" didn't sound all that unreasonable to me.
As far as sexual maturity went, at 11 I had just been told by a neighborhood kid exactly how babies get started (and I didn't believe it) Those were the days, eh?
I was raised Catholic (public school, Catholic Sunday school). In those days kids in America were Confirmed at 11/12 too. My own experience with the nuns and priests was fine (nothing weird at all). Before Confirmation we had the classes and there was the day when the Bishop came and kids were told he was coming so they kiss his ring. (I essentially thought, "whatever"...). Nobody ever told us what the whole business was supposed to mean, and as a hygiene-conscious kid I wasn't too thrilled about that aspect of it. Other than that, 11 years old, I just saw it as "yet one more weird, ritual-type of thing that was done in the Catholic Church.
I didn't feel "forced" at all, but then again nobody left any room for there being anyone saying, "No, thanks." It was passed off as a "big, special, day", and I just thought it was the nuns' and priests' business if they saw something special about this odd practice. I didn't technically kiss the guy's ring because, as I said - germ-conscious. The guy didn't say, "Hey, you missed the mark." The line of kids just moved along. I suppose I figured that I wouldn't touch the ring, but if the guy made an issue of it then I would.
I just saw it as something all the "church people" believed in and thought was a big deal. I didn't believe any of it from the time I was six years old, so I just "did whatever" until I was old enough to stop attending. I just didn't see having to go through the line and pretend to kiss the ring as a big deal. (Ironically, I was the kid who got to lead both the First Communion and Confirmation processions because I was shorter than all the other girls. I saw that "honor" as a task I got stuck with for being short. )
Should we shy away from such topics or fully explore them?
Well I guess it can almost be claimed as a phallic pagan practice - originally the idea of kissing an extended part of anyone in authority was -ahem- basically kissing their extension. Catholicism is deeply pagan, so why should this particular part be any different.
Whoa - that one would never have occurred to me. I just thought it had something to do with the fact they blessed things like Bishops' rings and things like Rosary beads, so I guess I just thought it was some kind of "blessing in reverse" from the ring.
hey Irish, nice new pic. I think we should fully explore....
the topic of course.
Glad you asked !!
Everyone is getting tired of my saying this !
Does anyone think that Jesus or any of his desciples would kiss his ring.
Christians of the first century would be put to death rather than to bow to the Emperor. And here christians are expected to not only bow but also kiss the ring????? And teach our children to do this also?
Jesus wouldn't even let anyone bow to himself. Do you realy think that Jesus would appreciate you doing this before any Man of this world? Of course NOT !!
I can not understand why Religious community can not see that The religion that Constantine built in 326 AD is the Beast that John described in Rev.13 (in 94 AD)
No believer wants to study this issue because they can sence where this truth will lead them.
Seeing prophesy of scripture having been fulfilled makes my faith in the God stronger.
Everyone wants this False religion mentioned in prophesy to come at some time in our future. It will not!!!
This religion that Constantine built twisted the Truth and calls it an "Interpretation" of the word of God.
Here I go... The part that everyone knows is coming and don't want to hear.
If This religion that Constantine build is the .....
"Whore of Babylon"? Does she have any Daughters?
Do not take this wrong! I believe in GOD and all scripture of the old testament concerning the Messiah.
And much of the New Testament concerning his teachings.
But I can not forget who wrote the New Testament??
Prophesy was given and Prophesy has been fulfilled.
This is easier to believe than ...Prophesy was given 1900 years ago and no one knows when/if they will ever be fulfilled???
1900 years ago Jesus said....
"Shortly come to pass"
"The time is at hand"
Jesus told his desciples over 60 years earlier; in a PRIVATE conversation...
"This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled; but no one knows the day or hour"
Prophesy has been fulfilled.. We just don't want to see it that way, cause that would mean that the Church has lied about it.
Kids will do what their parents ask in so many cases. They are looking for acceptance and safety aren't they? So if their parents say the church is good and safe, they will likely believe it. We probably shouldn't do a LOT of things in religion that symbolize this twisted idea of ultra loyalty, and especially avoid symboling marriage to minors. Obviously, not being adults, their understanding and experience is very limited and what they do will often be based on trust of those in authority.
I don't think it's a good practice at all. However, given the pressure a lot of these kids are under, they don't always feel like they have a choice, regardless of being told they do.
I would love to be proven wrong about my statement above..
But it seems that this is a taboo subject.
Everyone seems to be dancing around this same bush.
But no one wants to dive into it.
When we go back through the scriptures beginning at the beginning; concerning prophesy and examine what is really written before "Interpretations" are injected into them, we will see a completely diffrent picture than the one "Religion" presents to us.
The reason I know they are forced to do it is because the parents are told that if they dont kiss the ring as some parents were suggesting then their children cant make their confirmation
Is the Pope not called "HOLY FATHER" ?
Did Jesus not say (Mark 10:18) "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, GOD".
If Jesus would not allow any man to call him Good; do you think that Jesus would want any man to call another MAN
"HOLLY FATHER"?? .... or kiss his ring?
Everyone knows the answer to that Question.
If asked, Jesus would say "again", "Don't do it"
There are hundreds of instances of this kind of blasphemy and yet mankind is blind to this fact.
The beast was given 42 (prophetic) months to blaspheme, and if possible would fool "even" the elect.
And kill those that would not take his name.
The Inquisition is over guys. It is OK now to be honest with ourselves.
If we have been fooled, how hard would it be for someone to make us realize it.
There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.
We must be careful;
Are we worshiping God or Religion?
And self justifying it by saying that it is just a tradition.
You are the blind one. Despite 2000 years of this nonsense - still you stand there and argue that the shroud of Turin - which you have never seen - is proof enough for you that Jesus rose from the dead.
And so religion continues it's merry way. Thanks to people like you.
What do you make of that shroud of Turin? I watched a documentary the other night on TLC or some channel creating a face from the shroud. I'm just curious as to what others think the shroud is.
An attempt to make money from the gullible in medieval times. Oddly - two of my friends saw it last week and had trouble not laughing at the display. It comes out every 10 years or so.....
It depicts the 100% perfect image (for the day) of Jesus' face.
The documentary talks about how the Catholic church let scientists do tests on the shroud for 5 days in 1979 or 80, they determined that the figure on it was not painted on and really couldn't come up with an explanation. I know some carbon tests on the shroud date it to 1390/1450, but there are new discoveries that the shroud was included in some very ancient writings.
Several people have replicated it using techniques available at the time it was dated (1500 years after jesus) - but I had not heard about these "ancient writings" - where are they?
You would have to watch the documentary I can't remember where the writings were found. I will google it and see if I can find it.
I did read the hub you provided but didn't see much proof that the shroud had been faked. I am open to the possibility that it was but didn't see any evidence on the hub.
I believe that there is a God! What this God thing is .. (your words); I am not sure. I feel that it is nothing like "Religion" teaches it to be.
The previous post that "I" profess to be true, meets you
95% of the way between your beliefs and that of religiousity and yet you are still offended???
I think that this offends you more than the average Christion
preaching does. There is no pleasing you. Not that that is my intention.
Why is that?
It is this ridiculous belief that causes all the conflicts and abuse.
But - you cannot see that.
Yeah - you believe. You would die for it? You would kill for it? You would hide behind it? You would defend this belief?
Yea! this seems to offend you more.
My believe that a higher; (possibly evolved) being exists outside of the Religious definition that does not contradict scientific proofs, seems to bother you.
I have to be crazy... cause ... the Atheists say so ... and the religious right and left say so too. I must be crazy??????????
So - you never reference the bible?
Still - defend the faith!
All I am saying is this belief causes conflict - and here you are fighting over it.
You are the one who told me the Turin shroud proves jesus rose from the dead and therefore the RELIGIOUS BOOK - THE BIBLE is right.
But - you do not think you are religious?
Yes - you are crazy.
Yes I do refer to the bible. When the Church that Constantine built established their canon they did have to keep enough of the commonly held beliefs in order to get some of the religious leaders of the day to accept this collection of writings. And to be enticed to join this NEW religion.
Based upon compromise.
In my opinion, There is some truth in it.
Science would have never accomplished anything if they threw out new concepts in their entirety just because they found a flaw in the concept.
Ya don't cut an apple tree down just cause ya found a bad apple on it.
You can be compaired to a jar of peanut butter(science) argueing with a box of chocholote (religion) as to who taste the best. It don't have to be either-OR
Myself... I like reeses peanut butter cups.
Like I said - Your beliefs have caused centuries of conflict.
Still - that does not matter because you believe. LOLOLOL
You do cut down a bad apple tree when it is infecting all the others.
Fight for God!!!
Your beliefs have done nothing but spread peace and love throught out the entire earth.
Thank you for shareing.
PS please spare a few of the apple trees.
Still don't understand do you? Religion (a belief in god) is a big part of the problem. But - you are happy to pretend that is not true - because it is far, far, far more important that you defend that belief.
Sad that you cannot listen to what I am saying. And yes - I hear you. You believe there is a god! Great.
The apple trees need to go. Even jesus said so. Aquarius....
So you are saying that ever if all of the "Religiousity" is taken out of the world; you still would not be happy until there is not a single person left on the earth that believes in a power larger than themselves?????
Please do not twist my words. A power that you will f*** little children for and hide behind a pontiff afterwards?
Just listen to what I have said instead of jumping to defend you utterly ridiculous belief.
You know what this "power" is?
You speak for it?
You comprehend it?
You are lying. You do not believe in "a power larger than" - you quote the Bible and believe the totally ludicrous notion the your religion is the right one and jeebus came back to life - and will fight to defend it. How much sense does that make? LOLO
I love it when you guys get all vague - "a power larger than"? LOL Oh - but I have some specifics for you.... "
Don't care do you? Far, far more important to defend the faith and be right?
I have been "listening" to every word that I have read of yours. You however have not heard much of what I have said.
You see the word GOD and your ears stop working.
I believe that "Religion" was the Beast that John saw rising up out of the sea in Rev. 13.
I think that you would agree that "Religion" is beastly???
But because I believe that God said that there will be a false religion upon the earth that will misrepresent him/it; and "religion" does not recognize that it is "IT" You want to cut down all of my apple trees.
Yes - I hear you Jerami. You are saying exactly the same thing all the other religionists say. You believe in god not religion. Blah, blah, blah........
You are kidding yourself. You know yourself so little you think this is true when it is not.
Because you immediately tell me garbage about jesus coming back to life and that you have proof of this because of a cloth you have never even seen.
This is religion. Diseased, disgusting, man made, conflict causing religion. Nothing else. If you genuinely believed in god - you would keep it to yourself instead of trying to ascertain what this invisible super being said and tell other people what you think it said. lolol
Your tree is diseased and infecting all the other trees and you are so very very desperate to fight for this invisible god that you cannot see this is religion.
You are even lying about it to defend your ridiculous beliefs........
You do not believe in a "higher power".
You believe in the man-made biblical god. Utter nonsense. Look at people like you and Dent - fighting to defend your utterly ridiculous beliefs and ignoring the acts of the churches - why? Because your belief in the invisible super being is actually the most important thing to you. Sick. Selfish, sick and 2000 years of people like you defending the faith should have taught us that this disease needs to be treated.
I agree with this completely. If you genuinely believed in a god (as in a benevolent being concerned with the affairs of humans and NOT AS IN RELIGIOUSLY DEFINED) then you'd be humbled by it and aware that if this god could reach you without religion then it can and being benevolent presumably will reach others without religion.
But why I am mostly responding to this sentence is because it is sort of the whole danged problem with religion. People trying to define the thing. If people had just let it go at "dunno how this happens. It must be a higher power." then that would be okay. There'd be no dishonesty in that, and little to cause any conflict.
The problem is that people try to define it, and ANYTIME THAT HAPPENS THEY ARE WRONG! (duh) Which is fine, it's okay to be wrong, but when we speak of higher powers who are supposed to have great power over our fates, then you're gonna cause conflict.
This is one reason why even the seemingly harmless interpretations truly aren't.
I'm gonna jump in here briefly.
You said something earlier in the thread about the whore of babylon (catholicism) having daughters (other religions which spawned off of it). But you are more less mating with her to create yet another and the apple never falls far from the tree.
I appreciate that you recognize the fallacy of religion, even of many of the interpretations of christianity. But your's, curiously, is supposed to be correct?
I can't stay long.. Gotta go to work in a bit.
And yes everyone has a belief system. The major part of mine has been studying what the prophesy are actually saying unhindered as much as possible by interpretation. What would an attorney or English teacher say that they actually are saying.
My thoughts are. "If" we say that we believe what the bible says, we should not rely upon what other people's interpretations are. If we are to believe interpretations at all; it should be our OWN and not someone elses.
This has been the main body of things that I have been attempting to express.
As far as the rest of my beliefs??? I do not know?
If Jesus is the only way to the "Father" I think that "Jesus"
should be understood as "The word" of God
The "word" of God is the only way to God.
The same can be said for you and me. The only way to me is to know my words and deeds etc. Something like that anyway.
My beliefs are kinda generic. Not so exclusive.
From wherever you are, there is only one direct path to your destination. And your destination can be whatever you want it to be.
Who am I to say that YOUR destination is wrong.
All that I can say is that your way doesn't work for ME or it does
Since I have been here My beliefs have changed a bit, thanks to discussing them with all of You.
I think that that is what the forums should be for.
Well I respect that. As I've said before (I believe in discussion with you) everyone has to be comfortable with their own beliefs.
I've enjoyed talkin with you.
I've found myself sometimes getting a little forward with my beliefs. I think mostly in a reactionary reflex.
But that is no excuse. Any way I gotta go mow the yard to free up tomorrow for other stuff.
Check back in a hour or so.
If the concept is flawed, what use is it to science or anybody? That IS how science accomplishes things.
You would if the tree was guaranteed to be free of any bad apples. And, in this case, there are many bad apples found on the tree of righteousness.
This is what I found, supposedly the shroud was in Constantinople and before that Edessa an early Christian town. I looked at the links provided and really don't know what to make of all this, could someone have created this shroud in the middle ages and it stumped scientists until 2009? I would imagine we are much smarter these days, maybe not.
The Shroud is supposedly mentioned in the septuagint. I don't know.
My confirmation involved being slapped in the face by the bishop. A ritual slapping, of course. But it was supposed to be an acceptance of joining the army of Christ, becoming Christ's soldier, subjugating myself to the church's authority and also turning the other cheek.
How screwed up is that?
Being forced to kiss the bishop's ring is just as humiliating as being slapped in the face by his hand.
I must say that confirmation education, drummed into us by the nuns, was more terrorizing than the actuality. The bishop turned out to be a good guy, smiling with a gentle touch on the cheek.
And that's screwed, too.
Jerami said... Science would have never accomplished anything if they threw out new concepts in their entirety just because they found a flaw in the concept.
Beelzedad said ... If the concept is flawed, what use is it to science or anybody? That IS how science accomplishes things.
Jerami said... that is wrong! All of scientist formulas began with flaws. And then they work on it some more until they can remove the flaws until it becomes acceptable as fact.
Ya don't cut an apple tree down just cause ya found a bad apple on it.
Beelzedad said You would if the tree was "guaranteed to be free of any bad apples". And, in this case, there are many bad apples found on the tree of righteousness.
This statement has a flaw in it. Can ya see it?
And if a crow or blue jay pecked a hole in one would ya still cut the whole tree down?
You really shouldn't write about things you have no understanding, Jerami. That is most certainly how science does NOT work.
No, I don't.
Well - that most certainly IS the way science works, it is called experimentation. The same goes for understanding, it is the mistakes we make that teaches us, we even learn how to walk by learning not to fall over.
I get that, but Jerami was under another impression in that scientists begin with flaws and work from there.
Stopped off for lunch and looked in.
@ Beelzedad If you were reading my mind as to what my impresion was? You were on the wrong page wrong dayor something??
I meant to say exactly as alternate poet answered.I would have replied the same had I been here.
My beliefs are doing the same thing. Working out some things that I consider as flawed. We are all in a state of becoming or decline?? No matter what the issue we are speaking of. and thank you alternatepoet for pointing this out.
I think it is ridiculous kissing anyone's anything. I am selective with whom I kiss.
I grew up going to a Russian Orthodox church, as a kid we were asked to kiss the priests hand during the ceremony. I refused....
Where does this practice come from any-way??
I just asked someone and got two replies.
One answer is: centuries ago and its done as a sign of respect for a spiritual leader.
The other answer, ( I like this one best) is: the godfather !!! lol
Take your pick.
Thanks Sir Dent either way it is not right. We should only have to show our respect to people of our choosing and not bow down to any man on this earth.
Catholics will do what they will do is the bottom line. If many Catholics feel that a ceremony going back centuries is still valid and their children should kiss a ring and thus pledge their loyalty to the church then so be it.
As for the children I don't know how much if any force is involved in getting them to do this. It may be a sign to some that they are growing up and ceremonies dealing with that are common throughout the world and are usually welcomed by the participants.
Personally, I find the entire practice of kissing the Bishops ring - unacceptable - yet in many instances parents are given no choice - Ireland is a small place and even smaller when you live in a twon or village - if your child does not get confirmation bestowed then the child is isolated - it is also worth remembering that the Catholic Church continues to own and run 80% of schools in Ireland.
If changes are going to happen they must come from the people. I don't live in Ireland and therefore I have no say in what Irish Catholics should or should not do.
To me the kissing of the ring has more to do with trust than anything else.
If there is no trust as in the case of trust being broken or betrayed then there should not be any kissing of the ring. In a tight knit community if wrong had been done then not having your children kiss the ring would and should get support.
I wouldn't kiss anyone's ring unless it was my wife's and then not too often but since I am not married I can't say for sure.
PATSY McGARRY, Religious Affairs Correspondent, irishtimes.com
THE POPE has been accused by a leading theologian of engineering a worldwide cover-up of clerical child sex abuse in the Catholic Church and of having made worse everything that is wrong in the church.
The accusations have been levelled by Pope Benedict’s longtime critic and former colleague, Swiss theologian Fr Hans Kung, in an open letter to the Catholic bishops of the world, published in this newspaper today.
It is devastatingly critical of the pope and urges the bishops not to be silent where the current church crisis is concerned but to set about reform and call for another Vatican council.
Timed to coincide with the fifth anniversary of Benedict’s election as pope next Monday, Fr Kung says in the letter “there is no denying the fact that the worldwide system of covering up cases of sexual crimes committed by clerics was engineered by the Roman Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith under Cardinal Ratzinger (1981-2005)”.
He continues: “During the reign of Pope John Paul II, that Congregation had already taken charge of all such cases under oath of strictest silence. Ratzinger himself, on May 18th, 2001, sent a solemn document to all the bishops dealing with severe crimes ( epistula de delictis gravioribus ), in which cases of abuse were sealed under the secretum pontificium, the violation of which could entail grave ecclesiastical penalties.
“With good reason, therefore, many people have expected a personal mea culpa on the part of the former prefect and current pope.Instead, the pope passed up the opportunity afforded by Holy Week: On Easter Sunday, he had his innocence proclaimed urbi et orbi by the dean of the College of Cardinals [Cardinal Angelo Sodano].”
Fr Kung says that “when it comes to facing the major challenges of our times, his [Benedict’s] pontificate has increasingly passed up more opportunities than it has taken”.
Such missed opportunities included, he says, “rapprochement with the Protestant churches”, “reconciliation with the Jews”, “the opportunity for a dialogue with Muslims”, and “reconciliation with the colonised indigenous peoples of Latin America”.
Also missed was “the opportunity to help the people of Africa by allowing the use of birth control to fight overpopulation and condoms to fight the spread of HIV” and that of making “peace with modern science by clearly affirming the theory of evolution and accepting stem-cell research”.
He says that “with a return to pomp and spectacle catching the attention of the media, the reactionary forces in Rome have attempted to present us with a strong church fronted by an absolutistic ‘Vicar of Christ’ who combines the church’s legislative, executive and judicial powers in his hands alone. But Benedict’s policy of restoration has failed.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/fro … 48283.html
In 1964 there was a big council meeting in the Vatican to discuss the issue of contraception. Methods with no scientific backing that actually don't work were approved of. The pill, the condom, etc were not. The previous pope upheld the findings of this meeting and the decision of the 1964 pontiff. The present pope has basically done so as well.
Strange things happening in the Catholic Church - POPE may have to resign
No way is that going to happen. No way will the pope resign. I believe that in the history of the Catholic church only one pope has ever resigned and he was tricked into doing so. Other popes have been assassinated but not in recent times.
The real problem is that when the present day pope dies a pope just as conservative and do nothing with probably take over.
I just remembered that there was a pope before the last two who was only in power a very short period of time. There was talk of him about to expose a money laundering operation to do with the Vatican bank and the Mafia. He may have been assassinated though the proof of it I believe is thin on the ground.
Why would you kiss someone else's ring. Hell no, are you kidding me? no. I'd let you kiss my butt though.
No thanks. I have no interest or desire to kiss butts or rings thank you very much. Kissing a wife's wedding ring was a hypothetical and a silly one at that. Even so there is the custom of the land to respect. If Catholics in Ireland are happy to go around kissing rings let them I say. If they are not then they will have to be the ones to speak up and end the practice.
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