Bullying Is Never Acceptable - Dan Savage

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   Beelzedadposted 12 years ago

   "I was listening to the radio yesterday morning, and I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better  campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.
   
   If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man, and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your viewpoint.
   
   To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a saviour. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.
   
   Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future."
   
   > L.R.
   
   
   
   "I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
   
   No, wait. I’m not. Gay kids are dying. So let’s try to keep things in perspective: f#&@ your feelings.
   
   A question: do you “support” atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there’s no “Christian” movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying.
   
   Why the hell not?
   
   Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it’s clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are “better or more worthy” than others.
   
   And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
   
   Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not “sinners”. Gay and lesbian children.
   
   Try to keep up: the dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of “faithful Christians”, and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children licence to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don’t have to explicitly “encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate” queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It’s here, it’s clear, and we’re seeing the fruits of it: dead children.
   
   Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?
   
   Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God but in the image of the hateful and false “followers of Christ” they call Mom and Dad."
   
   by Dan Savage, October 13, 2010

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      sandra rinckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with Dan.  No matter how careful you are with your words and how you believe that you are not part of the problem, in truth, kids really do pick up those things he was talking about and they do apply them in the form of bullying.
      
      They might not know what the consequences of their actions are and what kind of pain they are causing but if the parents are not forthcoming with telling their kids that bullying for any reason is NOT okay even if you don't like them for whatever reason, then it comes down to the parents and what the parents are expressing to their kids.
      
      Kids do not have the same communications skills as adults should have and they see things as good and bad and don't consider that what they are doing would ever cause another kid to kill themselves.
      
      When you think about all the things that hurt kids ie: their clothes aren't 'cool' enough, 'expensive' enough, 'trendy' enough, they get free or reduced lunch, their mom or dad cannot drop them off as school, they don't have the same color hair as the popular kids, they are shorter than the other kids, they wear glasses, they have a disability etc...
      
      What a parent would probably express to their kids about these things is that they give them those things because they love them.
      
      I am sure every parent has said it to their kid at some point after giving them something extra special.
      
      Translation to a kid is something like, "how come you didn't get the Capri Sun juice box?"  The other kid might not know why but what usually follows if you have watched kids behave is, "well my Mommy loves me that why I have it".
      
      And the other kid goes home wondering why their mommy doesn't love them too. 
      
      The same thing happens when it comes to homosexuality.  They hear the parents say certain religious bigoted things and might not know what their kids are taking from it but if you aren't telling your kids that everyone is acceptable just the way they are, you are telling them that there is something wrong with the other one.
      
      So, I think the parents who believe that being gay is wrong or sinful or whatever should actually be more careful with their words not telling some guy who is trying to express to you that your religion whether you know it or not is mostly responsible for the trending suicide of gay/lesbian children.
      
      If you don't want someone to express what is going on because you don't want to believe that it is coming from your religions teachings and the mindset of the people who believe it then essentially all you are really caring about is your faith and not the well being of the kids.
      
      I don't disbelieve that what is happening to the kids is breaking your heart but I wonder if what you are really sad about is; had the child not been gay and their parents told them how bad it was, then it would have saved his life and he wouldn't have had to die.
      
      Can you see the contrast?

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         Esoriposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Beautifully written and expressed, and I agree whole-heartedly.

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      Daniel Carterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I linked this on my facebook page a week or so ago. There was a huge uproar going already before I posted it, but it added fuel to the fire.
      
      Conservative Christians will say they love everyone, but their actions are far from that. I think in the end, actions are the final evidence.
      
      It's a good link.

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2. 58

   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   There are innumerable thoughts that come to mind from reading this post.
     Bullying Is Never Acceptable
     Yet it seems to be present in every life form on earth.
     On the farm yard it is called establishing a pecking order.
   
     I would think that it is the same on the playground at school.
     As adults, at the work place it is the same except they call it office politics.
     In relationships it is called the battle of the sexes.
    
     There are 1000s of ways to be a bully, and in some of them we can not see that that is what we are doing.
   
     Is it right?  Not in a perfect world.
   
     Gay , skinny, fat, short, ugly, dumb, shy, clumsy, etc. , etc. , there will always be targets for a bully to pick on.
   
   Religion is not the cause of the worlds problems.
   To constantly antagonizing religion for causing all the worlds problems is in fact another form of bullying!!
   
      When we fix one problem, we create another.
   It's like we just don't know when to leave well enough alone.
   
      It will be fixed (we think) when we tighten that one screw just one more turn .. then it breaks.
   
      We ourselves will never create a perfect world by trying to fix the problem over there.
   
      The best that we can do is for all of us to look inside ourselves and do what we can with that.
   
      And even then a little cooperation amongst ourselves is necessary.

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      MissEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Amen!

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      Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That's another debate. What is most certain is that religion is the cause of this problem.

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      Esoriposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "Religion is not the cause of the worlds problems.
      To constantly antagonizing religion for causing all the worlds problems is in fact another form of bullying!!"
      
      I see nothing wrong with protecting the bullied and bullying the bullier. Religion might not be the finite cause of this problem, but it is a MAJOR contributor in my opinion. People have a problem with just letting others be, and a frequent fallback excuse is that it "goes against God" in some way.
      
      That may be, but that's between the "annoying" individual and God. Leave them alone, unless they are actually causing harm to you in some way . . . like verbally berating you, physically attacking you, stealing from you, Etc.

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      Friendlywordposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You gotta be kidding...Christians condemn and murder gay children with a smile on their face and the blessing of Jesus in their hearts. That is what separates Christians from the other stalkers and murderers in this world. Christian think God is on their side when the promote and carry out murder!

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         Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         What the hay?  Why don't you take your hatred for Christians and keep it to yourself until you work it out in your heart?   Because you're attacking Christians falsely in this post.  What's wrong with you??

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   Jim Hunterposted 12 years ago

   "Gay kids are dying"
   
   Straight kids are dying too.

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      sandra rinckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Yes but they aren't killing themselves for being gay/lesbian.  Straight kids aren't being bullied for being straight.
      
      Granted there are several other reasons they get bullied but most don't cause them to want to kill themselves.

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         Jim Hunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         "Yes but they aren't killing themselves for being gay/lesbian."
         
         No, they kill themselves for other reasons. Is one better than the other?
         
         "Straight kids aren't being bullied for being straight."
         
         How do you know?

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            Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            This is a particular problem brought on by religious bigotry and is entirely centered on that. Stay focused, please.

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               Jim Hunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               No it isn't.
               
               Its brought on by kids being kids not understanding the possible outcome of their actions.
               
               Where is the sympathy for straight kids killing themselves?
               
               A far greater number are dying compared to homosexual kids.
               
               Oh yeah, there are no political or social gains in their deaths so they can be ignored.

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                  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Living in denial?
                  
                  
                  
                  You're free to start a thread on that topic and present your case.

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                     Jim Hunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Thats ok I like to expose the reason behind other threads.
                     
                     Its a lot more fun.

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                        Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        And, what have you exposed?

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                           Jim Hunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Your lack of concern for all kids for one.
                           
                           The longer this thread goes I'm sure more of what you really think will be exposed.

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                              Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I'm very sorry you feel the need to fabricate things to support your position.

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                  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  "Where is the sympathy for straight kids killing themselves?
                  
                  A far greater number are dying compared to homosexual kids."
                  
                  Dude, I hate to break this to you, but there are exponentially more straight kids than there are gay kids. Even if gay kids killed themselves at triple the rate of straight kids, there would be more straight kids than gay kids killing themselves.
                  
                  What position are you trying to support with this statistic?
                  
                  And again, people aren't picking on straight kids for being straight. Think about it for a moment. Do kids get called "Hetero" when they get pantsed in gym class, shoved into a locker, or otherwise bullied? Nope. They get called "fag," or some other anti-gay slur, whether they're actually gay or not.
                  
                  "Gay" is used as a synonym for bad, stupid, unworthy, despicable, etc. "Straight" is not. You'd have to be really not paying attention to believe otherwise.
                  
                  Any kid killing him or herself is a tragedy. Sometimes kids get picked on for no reason other than the whim of a socially popular peer. That's bad. But it's more common for kids to get picked on for some reason, even if it's only a perceived one. Picking on gay kids--or rather, picking on kids for "being gay"--is really common. And it's easier to do because if someone defends the kid being picked on, then obviously (say the bullies) they're "butt-buddies" and now both are fair game. It's the rare kid who's brave enough to stand up against that kind of harassment, risking his social standing among his peer group.
                  
                  Oh, and there's this:
                  "Straight kids aren't being bullied for being straight."
                  
                  How do you know?
                  I bet if you think about it for a minute or two, you can come up with a lot of slurs that basically mean "you're gay." I'll start you off.
                  There's "Gaywad," "Fag/Faggot," "Pansy," "Nancy-boy," "Fruit," and  "Flamer." that took me less than 30 seconds. I bet you can think of more.
                  Now try to think of an insult that attacks people for being straight.
                  Go ahead.
                  I'll be astonished if you can come up with more than one.

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                     Jim Hunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     "Dude, I hate to break this to you, but there are exponentially more straight kids than there are gay kids. Even if gay kids killed themselves at triple the rate of straight kids, there would be more straight kids than gay kids killing themselves."
                     
                     Really, dude, thanks I knew there was a reason I wrote that.
                     
                     "What position are you trying to support with this statistic?"
                     
                     The position is really easy to figure out.
                     
                     This thread is another ridiculous attempt at blaming Christianity for some kids killing themselves.
                     
                     There is no conspiracy to bully homosexual kids into killing themselves, it only exists in the mind of an atheist who has nothing better to do all day than to show his hatred for religion.
                     
                     Homosexual kids who are being bullied are being bullied by other kids who have no clue to the harm they may cause. The sad thing is you know it, he knows it and the rest of us who see it for what it is are laughing at the fear he has for religion.
                     
                     Now don't bother me with the "there are exponentially more straight kids than there are gay kids" crap, I knew that, that is why I said it.

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                        Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        "There is no conspiracy to bully homosexual kids into killing themselves,"
                        
                        No, of course there isn't. There's just a lot of jackholes in the world who will pick on people if they think they can get away with it.
                        
                        But one reason they think they can get away with it is the fact that a lot of Christian authority figures regularly condemn gayness for the sake of gayness. All Christian authority figures? No, of course not. But you'd have to be genuinely clueless to believe that there are no mainstream Christian leaders who make it seem okay to pick on gay people.
                        
                        "Now don't bother me with the "there are exponentially more straight kids than there are gay kids" crap, I knew that, that is why I said it."
                        The thing you said was this:
                        "Where is the sympathy for straight kids killing themselves?
                        
                        A far greater number are dying compared to homosexual kids."
                        
                        with no mention of the fact that there's a far greater number of straight kids, full stop, as if to imply that straight kids are being driven to suicide at a greater rate than gay kids are. Full debate points, but also full marks for disingenuousness.
                        
                        To be clear, I do not know, nor do I mean to imply that I know, that gay kids kill themselves at a higher rate than straight kids do. But I suspect that this is true.

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                           Jim Hunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           "But one reason they think they can get away with it is the fact that a lot of Christian authority figures regularly condemn gayness for the sake of gayness."
                           
                           Prove that ridiculous statement, do you know a lot of kids waiting with bated breath for what some Christian authority figure says or does?
                           
                           Do you think kids care anything about what some Christian authority figure says or does?
                           
                           They are just kids doing stupid things because they think it will make them seem cool to other kids.
                           
                           You can't blame bullies on Christians and you can't completely blame a bully for the suicide of anybody else straight or gay.
                           
                           They had problems unrelated to bullies to begin with, suicide is the result of a deeper problem.
                           
                           So get over it.

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                              Daniel Carterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Actually, kids are not stupid as you suggest. If they are, they are as stupid as the people who raised and taught them in most all cases.
                              
                              You have to be taught.
                              
                              The song from South Pacific was WAY ahead of its time:
                              
                              
                              You've got to be taught
                              To hate and fear
                              You've got to be taught
                              From year to Year
                              It's got to be drummed
                              in your dear little ear
                              You've got to be carefully taught
                              
                              You've got to be taught
                              To be Afraid
                              Of people whose eyes
                              are oddly made
                              And people whose skin
                              Is a different shade
                              You've got to be carefully taught
                              
                              You've got to be taught
                              Before it's too late
                              Before you are 6 or 7 or 8
                              To hate all the people
                              your relatives hate
                              You've got to be carefully taught

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                                 Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Ah, what of those kids who are being "carefully taught" to be gay?
                                 And those who are carefully taught to be defensive about other people's opinions?
                                 And those who are carefully taught (and teach others by accusation or insinuation) that all Christians approve of the Westboro Church's actions?

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                                    Daniel Carterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Brenda, having had a few family members who fit into the LGBT category, I can tell you that they came from very hetero environments, very conservative Christian upbringing, and they were never "taught" to be gay.
                                    
                                    They have contemplated suicide because of the disgrace and shame it has brought to them and their families, and would never in a million years "choose" to be gay.
                                    
                                    So then, turning your question around, what about those children who are being taught to be "hetero bigots?"

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                        Friendlywordposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        "There is no conspiracy to bully homosexual kids into killing themselves, it only exists in the mind of an atheist who has nothing better to do all day than to show his hatred for religion."
                        
                        AND LET ME TELL YOU WHY...FIRST AND FOREMOST...I AM A GOD LOVING MAN. I AM NOT AN ATHEIST. SECOND, I THINK ALL RELIGIOUS CULTS ARE EVIL AND DANGEROUS.  THIRD, CHRISTIANS JUST HAPPEN TO BE THE WORST. CHRISTIANS HAD THE BLESSING OF THE LAST POPE. HE SAID IT WAS OK TO KILL HOMOSEXUALS. GOD WOULD UNDERSTAND AND FORGIVE THEM.
                        SO YOU SEE I DIDN'T START THIS FIGHT...BUT I'M GOING TO FINISH IT. YOU COULD HAVE LEFT ME AND OTHER HOMOSEXUALS ALONE. BUT HAVING THE POPES BLESSING AND ALL; YOU PROMOTE MURDER OF HOMOSEXUAL CHILDREN OF GOD. YOU DO IT WITHOUT THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF CONCIOUS. THATS IS WHY YOU ARE THE SICKEST, MOST TWISTED AND EVIL CULT ON THIS PLANET.
                        
                        SO DON'T CALL ME AN ATHEIST, I LOVE GOD AND GOD LOVES ME. YOU CULTS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD. ITS ALL ABOUT THE POWER AND YOU TRYING TO FORCE YOUR PERSONNAL WILL ON THE REST OF US. GOD IS NOWHERE IN YOU.

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         mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Sandra, my son gets bullied EVERY day he is at school. Why? Becuse he is different. He is overweight. His heart breaks. My heart breaks.
         
         He is a Christian.
         
         Does he strike back? No. Why? Because he has been taught to "turn the other cheek". The people doing the bullying,  more than likely are abused kids at home, on dope, have other issues, jealous.   
         
         My opinion is the bulliers are (have to be) athesists. Why? For the simple fact, any true follower of the teachings of God/Jesus would in fact go out of their way to DEFEND not bully. The woman at the well, who told the other people to not cast stones at the woman because she was in some way or another different than them? Dang sure was NOT lucifier.
         
         The teachings of God/Jesus do not in any way shape or form lead ANYONE to such acts.   In fact, it is just the opposite.
         
         I think the term bullying should be formally changed to terrrorism. That better describes the acts of such people.

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            Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            We're talking mainly about children here.
            Surely you don't think children who bully should be labeled as terrorists....

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               Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Surely you don't think a child who kills someone should be labeled a murderer? Or a child who steals something should be labeled a thief?
               
               Consider, have you ever supported trying younger accused killers as adults?
               
               But (surprisingly) I agree with your point.
               
               No, your run-of-the-mill bully isn't really terrorizing his victims. He's just being a jackhole. But when a ton of jackholes get together, they can have a pretty vicious (and terrifying) cumulative effect. We had bullies in my school, but they didn't work together, thankfully, and while most of the other kids wouldn't intervene when someone was bullied, they also didn't join in.

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               mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               No brenda, I did not label anyone a terrorists, just the actions in which they choose to do.
               
               Bullying is growing, fast and getting worse every day.
               
               Studies have shown that the younger one is, the easier it is for them to learn.
               
               There needs to be some form of "age app punishment" set up in dealing with the bullies, yes, even in kindergarten. Think about it.
               
               We can't or should not wait til they get older and HOPE they grow out of it.
               
               As barney said, "nip it in the bud."
               
               As far as the kid that is being bullied, I guarantee you that after 10 years of  going thru it they will tell you it is being terrorized.

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            Daniel Carterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I'll bet the kids that are bullying your poor son are Christians. I'll bet out of the whole school there are perhaps less than a handful of atheists.
            
            Hence, being a Christian is no guarantee that hate will stop. As evidenced by such Christian churches as the Westboro Baptist Church.

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               mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               You'd loose both of your bets.
               
               The guideance counselor to the hs told me the year before my son started hs that well over half of the students were into "this n that" everything EXCEPT christianity.
               
               Hate, yep it will more than likely keep on keepin on.
               
               I am not familiar with the happenings at WBC

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                  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Nothing worth talking about happens at WBC. They're the group of jackholes that picket soldiers' funerals, saying that God killed the soldier because the USA tolerates homosexuals. They're jackholes, in other words.

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            Uninvited Writerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            So, are you saying kids who go to religious schools are never bullied?

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               mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               No. I am sure they are. There is hate everywhere.

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         Jane@CMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Straight kids get bullied.  I was the one bullied all through my elementary & high school years.  I'm straight.  I watched in horror as girls bullied my daughter endlessly through elementary, middle school & high school and the administration did nothing - the said she was a smart girl and could deal with it, she was bullied because she was smart and didn't take any slack.  Guess what, the bully's parents were not much better. 
         
         We are not perfect parents but we do not behave poorly in front of our children.  In return, our children do not act or behave poorly around others.  My kids are not perfect, and am proud to say how often we are complemented about how polite our children are.
         
         I listen to the little girl outside behind us, in 1st grade calling her mom a bitch but I hear her mom calling other people bitches all day long - great example of tree:fall 
         
         Be wise in what you say and how you behave around your children.  It is so important.  They have so much to deal with at school and hear so much garbage there, that they do not need to hear it at home.

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            sandra rinckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I think you misunderstood my when I said "straight kids don't get bullied for being straight but there are several other reasons that they do". 
            
            Anyways, I do agree that we do have to set better examples to our kids.  I do agree with you.

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   Lifeallstar1posted 12 years ago

   Actually out of the kids who have killed themselves this year due to being bullied most were not gay. At least out of the ones made public. Bullies will take any kid that rubs them the wrong way for god only knows what warped reason they come up with and find the angle they wish to torture them for. You can be shy, popular, pretty, ugly, outgoing, straight, gay, green, blue, you get the point and a bully if they pin point you will make up a reason in their warped mind for the bullying to be justified. I really wish people would start spreading the obvious message and that is that people who bully whether they are young or old are just weak miserable people who feed off of it to ultimately be looked at as cool, they are far from it. If the message out there was that bullies are weak people then people would stop because weak is not cool.

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      Jim Hunterposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You need to quit making so much sense.
      
      Your correct interpretation of what is happening will throw this thread way out of whack.
      
      This thread is attempting to make one group of kids lives better than another groups.
      
      Don't tell anyone that all kids should be protected from bullies, just that "gay kids" should be protected.
      
      You just don't get liberal strategy do you?
      
      So again, quit making sense...

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      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Don't let Jim bully you..   You can make sense if you want to.   Making sense is just as cool as not making sense.

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      Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      This issue stems from religious beliefs and the result of what believers teach their children.

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         mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         bdad. you MUST be referring to the atheists belief system. in which I would agree with you.

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            Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            No, I was not. Atheism is not a belief system, it is a lack of a particular belief system, a term contrived by theists as they proclaim theism as a default position.

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   2besureposted 12 years ago

   I remember being bullied in the third and fourth grades.  I remember being terrified when threatened to be beat up after school by the biggest girl in our grade.
   
   I also remember being punched in the stomach by a boy bully.  I still remember their names, Jackie Dudley and Richard green, were my bullies.  It made me fearful and insecure.  Bullying is wrong and must not be tolerated.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 12 years ago

   Yes, bullying is wrong, period.
   And it's hugely shameful that the homosexual agenda is using that fact to further their agenda, all the while putting both children and adults under the thumb of political correctness, and bullying Christians and children of Christians at the same time.   There's the real bullies----the leftists and other socialists who want to push their agenda on others.
   Quite a twist on the whole thing.   Sure ain't a "no-spin zone" in the liberal field to be found.

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      outrider2posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly, a small section of the population who defines themselves by their sexuallity gets upset that everyone doesn't fall in line and bow down to everything they utter. This Dan Savage guy sounds nasty and vicious and like most liberals is open-minded and respectful of other people as long as they agree with him.

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      Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It's very sad that the death of children at the hands of religious zealotry is considered an agenda to be despised.
      
      Please list all the Christian children who have killed themselves for being bullied as a result of their being Christian?

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         outrider2posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Bullied for staying virgins? Taunted for being religious bigots because they believe in Jesus as their Savior? Teased for making purity pledges? Accused of causing the death of gay kids? Can't imagine that causing any problems for Christian teens.  Plus I don't have a list of all the names of a Christian children who might have commited suicide! Man, you are so smart, you got me.

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            Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            "Bullied for staying virgins?"
            Most of the time, you get called gay for choosing to abstain from sex. Try again.
            
            "Taunted for being religious bigots because they believe in Jesus as their Savior?" I've seen that, and it's just as wrong as harassing someone for not being a believer (or being a member of the wrong Christian church). It's nobody's business but the believer's.
            
            "Teased for making purity pledges?"
            What's a purity pledge? A no-drugs/alcohol/sex thing? That has little to do with "being Christian;" plenty of non-Christians make such pledges.
            
            "Plus I don't have a list of all the names of a Christian children who might have commited suicide!"
            I imagine that most kids in the US who commit suicide are at least nominal Christians. In fact, unless it's explicitly stated, I assume that any American kid (suicidal or otherwise) is probably at least a nominal Christian. Statistically speaking, I'll usually be correct.

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      Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "Yes, bullying is wrong, period."
      Indeed. And lots of bullies attack kids who aren't even gay by calling them gay.
      
      But when they attack someone for being overweight, it's okay to say, "Hey, just because someone is a bit overweight doesn't make it okay to bully them."
      When they attack someone for having lots of zits, it's okay to tell them not to pick on someone who looks different. But if they call someone gay, and you try to say "It's not okay to pick on someone because of who they love," suddenly you're furthering some agenda rather than arguing for everyone to be treated with dignity and respect.
      
      Astonishing how those who say that all bullying is wrong also seem to think it's wrong to defend gay people from bullies.
      
      And gay people don't define themselves by their sexualities any more than straight people do. Straight people flaunt their sexuality all the time. They talk openly about their boyfriends/girlfriends, hold hands in public with their sweeties, engage in public displays of affection, hold marriage ceremonies in the public square, make references to the honeymoon suite (and we all know what goes on in the honeymoon suite), and there are magazine articles about how to please your (opposite sex) sexual partner in bed.
      
      But if a gay man happens to mention his boyfriend, WATCH OUT! He's SHOVING HIS SEXUALITY IN YOUR FACE! Heck, he's practically throwing his boyfriend down on your front lawn and going at it hot and heavy in front of God and everybody. Any mention by a gay person of their significant other must be suppressed!
      
      Nonsense. Anyone who thinks a gay man mentioning the fact that he's gay is "shoving his sexuality in our faces" wouldn't know real equality if it bit them on the arse.

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   Diane Insideposted 12 years ago

   I'm confused here, children are not straight, gay, lesbian, or anything else, that pertains to sex. Children are not sexual until they come of age. If you are talking about college age, they are no longer children. 
   
   I hate that people try to say that children are sexual, it is sick, Children when they come of age they do decide what road they want to take.
   
   When I came to the age when I felt attracted to others sexually I was not a child. And I chose what I wanted just as all individuals do.  While these young people chose to be bullies they were not children.  Just as the young man they were bullying chose to be with the same sex. These bullies were wrong, for doing what they did there is no question about that.
   
   And they should be repremanded for video taping and bullying, etc.
   
   But people are bullied for all kinds of things, even the so called adults do it.

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      sandra rinckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Noted.  Indeed there was a young boy who also killed himself because he was being bullied for being gay.  His mother says her boy wasn't even gay, he is just a boy.
      
      Yet the child was still bullied as a 'gay' boy and it hurt him enough to kill himself.  Nonetheless, he was a Christian, he was black, and yes he liked to play with dolls.

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      Friendlywordposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      "Just as the young man they were bullying chose to be with the same sex."
      
      What a dispicable thing to say...That CHILD was driven to suicide by a couple of perverted stalkers and peeping toms, who were also children. They had no forethought of what could happen as a result of their torture of that poor boy that killed hisself.  This is a completely different case from the Christian Murderers that kill gay people with purely evil intent.

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         Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         It's YOU who's posting despicable things!
         And totally biased.
         Your post basically says that a child isn't responsible for his/her actions, but then you say the exact opposite for another set of children.

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   Mighty Momposted 12 years ago

   You're so right, Diane Inside. There are a lot of so-called adults here on these forums who are bullies!

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      Diane Insideposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You can say that again, on both sides, it's ridiculous, we should be trying to set an example to others.  No trying to bully or degrade anybody.
      
      That is just childish behavior and everyone here should know better. If we are all adult, lets act like it.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 12 years ago

   Diane Inside is right.
   
   My God!  Look what this Nation and this world is coming to!
   
   Kids need GUIDANCE, the proper guidance!  They don't need to be put in the middle of immature adults' arguments for political gain.
   Who was it--Al Gore?- who said kids are smarter than their parents???  Such nonsense!
   
     And I recently saw a show about bullying where Arne Duncan and Dr. Phil and other supposedly-smart people were gathered to push the "anti-bullying" agenda.  Duncan said basically we should let the kids tell us how to resolve this issue because they are "the experts"!  Such total nonsense! 
   
   What he really meant was that it's okay to USE children to push a liberal agenda of HIS.
   
   We have immature adults running our Education system and our Government system.  That's what happens when kids are treated like adults before their minds and senses are mature enough to BE adults.
   
   ALL the children need guidance, whether that includes basic teaching, counseling, discipline, or whatever is proper and helpful.  The ones who are bullied AND the ones who bully others.   Again, what they DON'T NEED is being put in the middle of situations that adults should have the integrity and conscience and power to handle.

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      livewithrichardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No, what I think he meant is that children are no longer allowed to handle the bullies themselves because the schools are so scared of being sued.  We live in the most litigious age ever. 
      
      What's wrong with a kid standing up to the bully? Why do parents think that its solely the schools responsibility to protect their children? Why have they stopped teaching their children to protect themselves?
      
      We live in a cruel world and the sooner children are taught that the better prepared they will be when issues arise.

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         Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I agree the parents should teach the children how to protect themselves.  That could be by different ways depending on the situation.  Sometimes, ignoring the bully's words would be effective.  Sometimes, actually responding to or fighting back at aggressive or violent behavior would be called for.   The heck with the School's fear of being sued!  Maybe legislation could be put into effect to stop that fear.   Also, legislation should be put into effect to decrease a parent's fear of being sued simply for disciplining their own child.  Or followed through on.....I do believe a parent has the right to discipline their child, but I remember years ago when it became non-politically-correct to spank a child, and children were told they had the right to sue their parents.   Such nonsense!  Except of course in cases of real abuse.
         
         And when a parent knows something must be done about incidences at School, then I think that's when the School authorities should work with the parents to resolve the situation.

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            Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            "Also, legislation should be put into effect to decrease a parent's fear of being sued simply for disciplining their own child.  Or followed through on.....I do believe a parent has the right to discipline their child, but I remember years ago when it became non-politically-correct to spank a child, "
            
            Spanking and disciplining are not the same thing. Spanking can be used as a tool to discipline your kids, sure, but there are other tools that can be used, and that can be even more effective in the long run.
            
            Plus, if spanking is your only disciplinary tool, you're going to eventually look like a total hypocrite to your kid, when this comedy of errors plays out:
            
            "Don't hit!" *smack*
            
            Kids see pretty clearly.

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            mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Brenda, school aint like it was when we went. I have been in and out of school since my son started school so many times they hate to see me coming.
            
            The ONLY  form of working with a parent that I have seen is to make it harder for my son to be a school. He hates it. Not the work.
            
            Spanking. Yeah, when he was learning to pull up, and would pull at things he should not be pulling at, i would tap his hand.and say no. They have to learn, and they have to know when we are serious.
            
            I agree. legislation should be passed, no, it should have already been passed that would protect the child being bullied, or the co worker that is being bullied..
            
            I keep thinking of this verse that says something to the effect of the laws being written not for Christians but... I just need to look it up.
            
            Yep, kids do see clearly. What is sad, is the kid doin the bullying. In order for anybody to bully somebody, they had to learn it somewhere or are just trying to reach out. So no, striking back, fighting it doesn't help.
            
            This (bullying) is turning out to be a very serious thing.

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    livewithrichardposted 12 years ago

    Agreed.  I'm 41 and when I was a kid we had episodes on TV (not that TV is a good teacher) but they showed how to deal with bullies by standing up to them.  Remember Perter Brady, or Opie vs the Bully episode on Andy Griffith.

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       Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yup!  Those were sensible days!

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          mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Brenda, i agree with you. How I wish things today were that easy. But, those were the days in which I was raised, and that is the only way I know to raise my son.
          
          The problem with that is, people think I am wrong.

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          sandra rinckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Not really.  I was also bullied and some chump decided to tell me to stand up for myself. 
          
          So I did and I got kicked in the cookie! He was a boy who kicked me in the vagina for no other reason other than I didn't look 'girly' enough to be a girl.
          
          I had a kid spit snot in my mouth once too after he pushed me off the tire tower so I ripped the kid off the tire and whaled on him.
          
          You know who got in trouble, me.  Dragged by the ear to the principals office and taking my first suspension for beating up a boy who spit snot, not just any ole snot, a big honkin' loogie (sp?)in my mouth!
          
          I will never apologize!

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             mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

             My son says that is just so nasty.

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                mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                But then he also said, thats how the school works.

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    frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

    Bullying is not a result of being one thing or the other. It's the result of choice, simple as that.
    
    Get over the religious side of who's more at fault. Kids don't give a monkeys about christianity. Kids give a monkeys about who's ugly, fat, gay, lesbian, different.
    
    I've got friends who are devout christians. Their kids? No choice in the matter so by default, they attend church and the rest. They've never been bullied. I've known it on the flip side. Christian educated kids that kick the stuffing out of weaker ones.
    
    Kids bully. Adults bully. End of story. The issue is dealing with it, not who's got the worst score card.
    
    And why just target the kids? A lot of it can be blamed on bad parenting. So educate the parents.
    
    I've lost count of the times I've had parents tell me their child would never ...
    
    As for turning the other cheek - no, I wouldn't. If someone smacked me square in the jaw or tried dustinf me round the yard I stood up for myself. I'm a good person but I don't button up the back.

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       Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I believe that's exactly the point Dan Savage was making.

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          frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I know Beelzedad Unfortunately I've seen some posts along the lines of the types of closed minds of parents that I've worked with.
          
          Which is half the battle

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             mom101posted 12 years agoin reply to this

             frogdropping, I KNOW you are not calling me closed minded. Surely.
             
             Could the "other half" of the problem be that, the other "sensible" people, as some think, think they are in the right.
             
             Righ/wrong? What does it matter? Kids are being bullied and  for no reason except, in most of the cases, to look cool in front of friends. Youknow badA.
             
             And like Sandra  said, who got in trouble?
             
             I am ALMOST  tempted to give the ok for my son to take the gloves off.
             
             In an earlier post, someone wrote about the school afraid of being sued. Do the kids that are being bullied not have the right to safety while they are at school?
             
             I think it is time that the kids being bullied to go straight to the school officer and file formal charges. Bullying would soon stop.

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                sandra rinckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Unless the child is picking it up from the parents and that could be even worse. 
                
                IDK, it's a terrible trend.

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    MissEposted 12 years ago

    My son was been and has been bullied since Kindergarten.  He is an idiopathic toe walker even after therapy and surgery.  He is also very kind and shy.  I told him to hit back and he said he didn't want to hurt the other kids.  I finally got him out of the public school system and put him and my other son in an excellent college prep charter school that specializes in Math and Science.  I also stopped worrying about the other kids, the bullies. (Although there are much fewer bullies, they are still there.) Instead I focused all my efforts on building up my son.  I got him involved in things he excels in.  I really try to listen to how his day is without worrying about what I have to do.  Everyday when I drop him off I say, "You're AWESOME!"  Guess what?  The other day a kid wanted to be goalie at recess but my son had already asked the other kids if he could be goalie and he was already in the net.  This kid said, "Well then I'm just gonna beat you up."  My son looked him in the eye and said," I've heard people say that to me before and they never did anything.  I don't believe you and I am not scared of you."  The kid ran off. 
    
    Empower your kids with love.  Look at your options and do what's best for them.  Forget about political agenda,revenge, and our own differences.  We need to stand up and be adults so our kids can feel safe.
    
    "We can surely no longer pretend that our children are growing up into a peaceful, secure, and civilized world. We've come to the point where it's irresponsible to try to protect them from the irrational world they will have to live in when they grow up. The children themselves haven't yet isolated themselves by selfishness and indifference; they do not fall easily into the error of despair; they are considerably braver than most grownups. Our responsibility to them is not to pretend that if we don't look, evil will go away, but to give them weapons against it."
    -Madeline L'Engle

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       MissEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       One of my fav. authors btw.

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    Randy Godwinposted 12 years ago

    Bullies always get their comeuppance!  And I'm sure many have remorse for their deeds later in life!  Especially if someone bigger beats their butt early in their bullying career!  I do know of a few such individuals!

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