Why is it always about theism and athiesm
What about humanity? I am not sure I recognize the concept of "good or evil" outside of certain social constructs. I do not think there is anything inherently good or evil. Just stuff I agree or disagree with.
One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.Well - the example to chose was pretty easy to claim some sort of inherent evil beyond your understanding because the abuse of a child hits something deep within many people, and it is in our nature to protect our young, therefore anything which damages them is "evil."
How about preventing an old lady from being beaten to death by a gang of armed youths, and accidentally shooting a child in the process? The child lingers in agony for three days before eventually succumbing.
Inherently evil?
Well, if you gain an understanding of your nature, and our nature as a species, I am pretty sure you will be able to identify exactly why it is that you feel this act is evil. In fact - you feel it so strongly - you appear to need to attribute that to something outside of yourself. I do not need to do that. I know why I find this act abhorrent or "inherently evil," in your case.
I just wondered - that is all. But - as you are arguing that the "inherent evil" or lack thereof seems to depend on who is doing the act - not the act itself -we seem to be back to where we started. Which is things that I disagree with or agree with.
No. Not me. Never mentioned Darwin - or evolution. And I have never read that book. None of which has anything to do with our nature as a species. Which is strangely unique on this planet - as we seem to be the only animal to have reached this level of self awareness
I see. And what personal experiences with life have led you to this conclusion? Although - at least you are open to the possibility that you are unconsciously influencing yourself.
Rather making an assumption here I'm afraid. I do not look through a scientific lens. Just personal observation. I have never seen anything to suggest an absolute morality.
I am not making a "glib" scientific dismissal. You may want to check into your subconscious impulses in using that word in order to denigrate my opinion. Because the word "glib" suggests a thoughtless answer and I have given this much thought. I did not dismiss what you felt either. I suggested it was such a powerful feeling that you felt the need to ascribe it to something outside yourself. I do not feel that need.
Perhaps there are. An you now claim to be able to identify these things that are "beyond human understanding" - which makes no sense. either they are beyond our understanding - in which case you should not be able to express them. Or they are not - in which case - they are not beyond our understanding. What you really seem to be arguing is the case that I should accept what you say because it i beyond MY understanding - but - you feel comfortable expressing it. Which sounds very religious to me.
There may well be. Are you saying you know of these ways?
I am not suggesting we are the most complex expression of consciousness in the universe. But - if you can express it and I can understand it - then it is no more "enlightened " than that.
Sure - and any time you want to give me a list of "inherently evil" acts - I will give it due consideration.
As I said - you seem to be arguing that the act itself is not inherently evil - because it depends who is doing it. I do it - evil. Supreme being does it - not so much, because they tend to work in ways beyond the ken of mere mortals and also get to decide what constitutes good and evil. Which rather makes a good case against "inherently evil," acts.
Nature just "is" and I do not see anything inherently good or evil in that either.
I am not approaching this from a "scientific " standpoint. Merely from my own personal experiences and observations.
Why do you assume that there is nothing in between the "purely religious or the purely scientific mindset."?
I think you missed my point.
I suggest we teach ethics as a matter of course to our children, and educate them in how to go about developing ethics instead of merely giving them a list of rules they must follow. Whether this list pf rules comes from the government Inc or the Church Inc is besides the point. We need to educate them to be able to discern the reasoning behind them, and give them a reason to follow them that is not solely punishment based.Then they will be educated enough to have some input.
Thanks to the abuse of religion and money - a small powerful elite have always made the laws - often based on religious principals and often laws the makers are not bound by.
I am only too aware of the reasons behind many laws - and it ain't to look out for me.
Why is it always about theism or atheism?
This one I'll start with first- because philosophies are always compared to one another and not nor should be set in stone.
Religion is suppose to be about a moral conduct(actions). Man-made "morality" ties the good and evil concept to actions of individuals, in order to assess(judgment) level of morality used in the actions taken.
Religion comes in and makes claim "sin" is evil and "virtue" is good. Same distinction, different wording.
The problem is that too many people believe too deeply that life is complex, with the truth is much different.
Life is easy, it is people who make it complicated.
One is a direct consequence of the other. One would not exist without the other. One would not be necessary at all if the other were valid.
There would be no "antireligious sentiment" if there were no religion.Invested in what? The disbelief of fairy tales? LOL.
They wouldn't have to invest in anything at all, you see.Woowoo - you are missing the obvious fact that the people operating the machinery are using it backwards. And no amount of reasoning is going to persuade them to use it the right way 'round. Try speaking to them instead of constantly berating the people trying to teach them how to use the machinery correctly by discarding their misinterpreted manual.
Or is that too difficult?
But your opinion seems to be - exactly the same as you complain about.
Dear me.
Of course I could be wrong. But - I am more anti-religionist than anti-theist.
Tell me there is a god - OK - who knows? Maybe there is - maybe there is not? Pink Unicorn? Flying Spaghetti Monster? Biblical God? Zeus? Sure - Who knows? Why not? Sounds utterly ridiculous and goes against all observable phenomena - but - why not? No harm in believing that.
Sure - some claims made by theist cannot be disproven. That does not mean there is any validity to them. Because you seem to be arguing that any claim - no matter how insanely ridiculous has as much validity as any other - solely on the basis that there is no evidence either way. Is that correct?
Tell me you know what this god wants and He wrote a book that I must follow?
I am going to be fighting with you every step of the way.
I guess it's because only one opinion can actually be correct.
Theists stand on their beliefs and atheists stand on their lack of belief.
The atheists seem to have most to lose if they are wrong, plus they are emboldened since the RCC was stopped burning them at the stake for heresy, and generally we live in times of 'iniquity' so folk gravitate towards the concepts that allow them most 'freedom' to do as they wish without feeling guilt or conviction, this leads to fanatical attempts to silence all and any criticism of the non believers lifestyle choices or behaviour.
Any mention of possible consequences for your actions in today's world is viewed as an attack on ones right to free expression, or as a death threat due to the fact that in some way it is construed to promise a fiery doom for the non believer.
Why is that?....
When they don't believe in anything post death anyway?
Fortunately, we will all find out soon enough who was right and who was wrong..... and even this statement will probably be taken as an affront to atheistic principals and (lack) of belief.
Come soon Lord Jesus.....Christians have everything to lose if they are wrong. They have already lost their entire lives to worshiping a false god. And, if Allah is the right god, they will lose everything in the afterlife too.
At the very least, atheists have lived happy, moral lives.
You may not think it to fortunate when you find out you were wrong."If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).
I don't put any faith in the threats of Christianity any more than the threats of any other religion, as do you, evidently.
Yeah, but really. Isn't that all just more mystical, pulled-it-out-of-my-ass hocus pocus bullshit?
I mean. I'm all for drawing meaning from -wherever- in our own personal journeys or whatever, metaphors that help us understand and explain. But you can do that with anything.
Everybody thinks they have the Truth-with-the-capital-T. The funny thing is that if they knew it, they'd reject it, because it isn't what they're seeking. The Truth is too mundane, too meaningless, to ever be the Truth-with-the-capital-T.Like Jesus did? We can see how well that worked.
Why do you cling to the old way that has not worked for the last several thousand years? Are you blind to reality?
Unknown I think - we can't know that it is unknowable until some kind of end surely - sorry to interject but I am bored and hot and should have gone to bed ages ago - you know how it is on a quiet Sunday and no-one worth arguing with on here at the moment in my areas of interest
I can understand why myths survive. Why they are still believed is another matter. Mental illness caused by indoctrination perhaps?
Woowoo does not seem to be able to get her head around the fact that it "is always about theism and atheism" - (which it actually isn't - it is usually theism vs theism) because a large group of the population can be molded and persuaded to give a lot of money and power to a small group of the population by coercing them into believing the myth is real.
And they are very resistant to any explanation of where the myths originated that does not include a super Daddy in the Sky that will give them a reward if they say certain things.
I have given up and now use ridicule, rational argument and reason - not necessarily in that order.
Woowoo thinks that being condescending and claiming a higher understanding is the way to go. 1800 years of this not working is enough to persuade me that a more aggressive approach is in order.By looking itself in the eye - doesn't that mean understanding its existence, knowing that it is just myth kills it?
I gotta go out and eat something before I fade away - but I will be back !Yes, those folks lead me here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis
Please take note that none of these folks share your pet theories.Once again, you toss out something else that does not support your pet theories. Sorry. Keep trying.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/mitoeve.html
Wow. peoples responses are very different aren't they?
I thought Avatar was the weakest most patronising and moralising pile of claptrap I have seen for years.
The way movies build their archetypes for characters should not need to be this crass!Yep, I know it did well at the box office.
So did most of Cecil B's B graders.
Most of those were ninth-rate too!
I'm with the critics on these two.Aww - Woowoo - don't you know that the studios manipulate this stuff? And no matter how dismal the public response - it would have had a "cult following" and been "a huge success"? What is more telling is the speed with which Avatar went to DVD for £9.99.
Naive.
Mark Knowles wrote:
"No - I purposely ridicule - because I am not really speaking to them - I am breaking a meme."
Having an Ephalbic episode Mark?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pSXQbEO_28
goodluck!Woowoo - you do it your way - I do it mine. You are not a good listener are you? Oh - that is right - you have all the answers.
The Munchkins are quite capable of speaking for themselves, and I assure you that being this patronizing about the poor dears is more damaging in the long run.
Because this is exactly what their religion does to them and this tends to turn them passive/aggressive wolves in sheep's clothing.
See - "Little Red Riding Hood" for a better understanding.Oh and this is my song for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hXU6Sv2 … e=related\ get a sense of humour mark.LOL You really do have a listening disorder don't you?
It doesn't work like that Woowoo. Although - your lack of understanding in this area is interesting to me, and I genuinely wish I could go back to your level of naiveté. I can only assume you never read enough Grimm brothers as a child.
Once the box has been opened it is all but impossible to get the lid back on. People have been trying your way for the last several thousand years, and the crunch time has arrived.
For things to evolve, the past version must be wiped out - this is a perfectly natural occurrence and nothing for you to concern yourself with. The grown ups are dealing with it.
I understand why you need to cling to the old ways. They certainly are comforting - like an old blanket.I totally understand Woowoo. Changing your understanding of the world is hard - especially in this case.
As long as you are aware of the complete hypocrisy of your actions and understand that you doing exactly what you are preaching against is precisely the problem with religion.
Too bad you cannot see you are perpetuating the myth. But - that is how it gets you.LOL
We are going to have to agree to disagree, Woowoo.
To understand it - you need to break it down. Odd I never see you attempting to genuinely explain to the "other side" that their beliefs are simply mythological constructs to explain the human psyche. Why is that?
goodnight Elphie...
goodluck freeing the flying monkeys.Sweet dreams.
I'm game.
I'd say we are sentient animals with poor skills of discernment.
Many other animals running on instinct are better equipped than we are in many ways, such as making judgements that matter.
Humans destroy their own air and water, most animals don't do that as far as I know. Our dog knows we are upset before we do. We have lousy hearing and eyesight, our DNA is a mess and mental illness strikes one in five of us.
Such madness as externalising a subconscious entity as crazed as the sky fairy in the form of the most unlikely story the world has ever heard is an example of just how useless it can be owning a brain.
It is 2010 fer gords sake! We know about the sub-conscious now!
No need for hate and fear from above, it's all in the box on top of our shoulders, and scientifically supportable.- china manposted 14 years ago
0Well if you all have gone to bed then I can sneak in
Reading the thread I can't see where CCBT and our Mark really disgree. He, quite rightly in my opinion, fights tooth and nail against the idea of imposing myths on society as fact, CCBT is trying to say that myths are deeply attractive to our subconcious, or whatever.
The argument surely is whether the myths have any basis in fact carried down as race memory or something. Myth-ology is a well explored subject and there is plenty of evidence to show that they are definately racial stories if I can use that term to describe them. Where they come from, either from the imagination of some ancient storyteller trying to explain huge concepts to villagers and tribes-people that caught their imagination enough to be passed on and on and eventually down to us - or if they have any basis in actual events can be argued forever, and maybe both can be true.
We don't know if some dinosaur things survived into the era that included man, just because we find no evidence is just that, so stories of dragons could just conceivably have a basis in fact. The same goes for little people as a basis for fairies and elves and whatnots - there is plenty of archaeological evidence to show that some creatures miniaturised at different periods - horses for instance once were around half a metre high for some period somewhere, human like creatures the same, maybe.
But then there are the metaphysical myths like the Oedipal myth, it is too close to the mental condition of coming of age that it is surely invented, maybe elaborating a real story. To assume that ancient people were not capable of very high level thinking, maybe higher than ours, is a myth in itself. If we are to believe that Plato et al thought all that stuff up in one short period of time is to ignore that he was probably just discussing and teaching material handed down orally, his pupils were just the first to write it down )as they had handily just invented writing that could cope with it).
Did people meet and talk to an invisible super being - that is so clearly a way of explaining the big questions when we knew little about our Universe, like where do we come from and how did we get here. Well we know that now and the big book of myths has been shown to be wrong in so many ways that it is clearly just that - myth. Gravity. It is all because of gravity.
- china manposted 14 years ago0
because we love to argue tired old stuff maybe ? well they do actually, i just like to drop in now and again and leave random stuff that nobody takes any notice of
- china manposted 14 years ago0
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
Yes. Logical deduction, correct grammar and proper usage of the English language.
You have also jumped to the erroneous conclusion that nature by default becomes a god. Tsunamis/accidents/floods etc do not happen because of social apathy.
- china manposted 14 years ago0
- china manposted 14 years ago0
You two should really really come over to the argument thread where insults are required to post
i mean what's funnier is why i bother.I have been asleep around 8 hours - and you two are still at it - exactly the same point at where I went to sleep. You sure you wouldn't prefer to come over to the argument thread
at least there it is the whole point to put up fake ideas and argue them geez...yeah I'll drop by.
Glad you agree, China Man.
The human brain is indeed a pretty interesting thing.
Nope. That is entirely wrong. Freud NEVER said anything like that. Please do your homework before posting.
You can support your pet theory with evidence, if you wish.
Once again - you are twisting what I said to meet your needs to create an argument. Admittedly - this is typical of your dishonest approach to this discussion. I clearly stated that "I am not making the claims that are impossible to substantiate."
That is all. I never said anything else. I never said "with observable data." These claims are impossible to substantiate in any way shape or form. And - wow -- look at you making an assertion without providing any evidence.
Plus - you are once again being dishonest by suggesting that I share these "assumptions" with other people, which is the real issue. Not that anyone believes something - but that they feel the need to evangelize and put this belief system forwards as the "right" way to live. In some extreme cases (the last 2000 years) even go to the trouble of having these beliefs written into secular law to force other people to follow their moral code.
Have you actually read any history books?
I think we will both agree that a forum such as this is an impractical venue to substantially make an argument as to where religious beliefs derive from, and how the dogma has evolved into a control tool. Feel free to follow some of Woowoo's links - but for the moment - Holding a belief that you will live forever - which is at the root of the Christian faith - is based in a fear of death and the unknown, and was not at the root of the original teachings.
My point is - and always has been - that it is impossible to compromise with people making assertions that - first of all are given by divine will - and secondly cannot be substantiated. They will always have the advantage because they do not need to back up their claims in any way shape or form. Oddly enough - you are now insisting that I substantiate my claims.
One rule for the religionist one for me? Is that it? Sounds familiar. Shall I just make up my own god to give me instructions directly into mu head - and then I can start making baseless assertions that do not need to be substantiated?
Sure - looking forward to it because the only argument I have ever seen you make has been directed at non-believers and instructing them that what they should really do is admit that they cannot disprove any of these claims and therefore they are perfectly valid. Sorry - no - claiming to have a god telling you what to do to justify your actions is not a valid argument. And yes - I do genuinely think that religion is a destructive negative force that we would be better off discarding.
And what are the real issues Don? That I should listen to the Muslims and the Christians fighting more aggressively every day and accept that because their claims are impossible to substantiate in any way shape or form - they both have a perfectly valid viewpoint that I should respect and learn to live with? Who is on the crusade here exactly? Grow up - look in a mirror and read a few history books.
Attempting to force your beliefs on some one else by trying to scare them is always a hateful approach. And - it is at the root of the Christian/Muslim faith. But - you have made my argument for me that fear is at the root of many people's belief.
It is hateful, and on a personal level - it took many years to get the fear out of my head having had it insidiously inserted by adults as a child. Child abuse Don. Child abuse. Is this one of the "real" issues?
Hmm - personal attacks. Not going to respond. Typical of you though. Accuse me of being rude by attacking me. Sorry you have such a low opinion of me. You ability to discern the intentions behind the actions is apparently a little one-sided.
Lovely rant - hope you feel better. Please try reading a few history books and - I don't know - maybe you could give me a dozen or so examples of a compromise being reached with a religious perspective that did not involve force and conflict - usually armed?
Once again - you show an extremely low opinion of me and are apparently unaware that I formed my opinion of and attitude towards religion years before I even heard of Dawkins.
I have decided that ridicule is a more gentle way of getting rid of religion than any of the other approaches that have been tried ion the past.
I still don't know what your approach is other than to tell me you think I should behave the way you want me to.
Dishonest, lop-sided argument Don. I look forward to your hub which I hope will be a little more equitable, but - I will not be responding to any more of your personal attacks and unsubstantiated rants.No ill feeling here. You have expressed your belief and I accept that this is what you believe. I do not agree with you - but I do not agree with you based on the fact that this claim you make does not fit in with my understanding and observation of the universe. Not from some "glib scientific dismissal."
I make jokes also, and you should probably take this into context when observing as a third party. When I call some one Woowoo, who habitually calls me "PC" there is no ill will involved - and - I do not take life or this forum that seriously.
Speaking of which - far as I am concerned - LOLOL is a perfectly valid response to many - such as the one who emailed me to make sure I understood he wanted me to f*** off, then told me to go shoot myself in the head and unilateral decided that myths are not myths because he sed so.
What else can you do but laugh at things like that?I've always been a know it all.
when harry potter came out, my sister called me and said she had a flashback of when we we were in school. (good thing she's pretty)
- Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago0
More personal insults in light of an argument.
Again, that has nothing to do with your pet theory, it is a strawman.
Yet, you've provided nothing that remotely concerns your pet theory for others to learn.
Yes, I know, that's why you keep repeating your mantra over and over again and only offering up personal insults instead.
Is that the reason for your pet theory, to get google hits? Too bad you have spread disinformation in order to do it.
That should none of your concern. What should be your concern is trying to find a shred of evidence to support your pet theory. You didn't.Was there supposed to be something there that supported your pet theory? If there was, I didn't see it. Please point out the exact article, paragraphs, etc.
Or, just copy/paste the relevant evidence that supports your pet theory.
Yes, those are ad homs. Please take the time to understand the Ad Hominem Fallacy. I haven't reported you yet, but if you continue to insult me, I will.
Of course, they serve to expose your pet theory as unsupported.
Repeating yourself does not give validity to your pet theory. Sorry.Again, this has nothing to do with me.
Threatening YOU? Why are you lying now?
There was nothing you presented that supported that theory. Sorry.
THEY DID NOT SUPPORT YOUR PET THEORY!!! HELLO!!!
No, you are not. Stop lying, please.
Nonsense. You have not supported that pet theory.
You have repeated it over and over again like a mantra, no one could miss it.
Yes, you've made that quite evident.
But, since you've gone from insulting me to lying, I am done with you. I didn't mind following up on your links even though they were a colossal waste of time, and I didn't even mind the personal insults as that just eroded your credibility even more, but I will not put up with lies.
Later.No, not really.
You're posts are hilarious, really.
why:
1. you call Depth Psychology "my pet theory"
2. even when I quoted verbatim what it is, and joseph campbell's work, ya still don't get it.
So conclusion. hilarious.
I am not insulting you, I'm insulting the stupidity of your comments. You didn't threaten to report me? Not my style to lie, don't need to. read your own words mister.
Your comments on this thread are thin and pathetic. You're not countering my claims, you're just saying I'm not credible, it's a pet theory and I'm lying.
quote the dictionary and wiki once again, please. Make me laugh!
Or better yet try another thread. Maybe your style will work there.
Happy now?
I have more...
Theism and atheism is founded on a misunderstanding of myth.
The study of mythology will move the conversation away from true not true...but more why and what for.
ThanksIf you say so. Myth is defined as "A traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people."
Notice it has nothing to do with your pet theory?Really? ok, all I can say is
Even when its there in plain sight you still can't see it. You know what, don't bother. That's ok. I think I've given it enough of my time.
Don -
An incredibly lopsided view you hold there. Sadly you are so selective in what you have chosen to address, I can only take it you are of a religious persuasion yourself. I will make one last point which is what you have chosen to ignore.
There has been a religious war going on in one form or another since religion was created. There are religious wars going on today. I will assume that you can accept this as a fact without me substantiating it?
Your argument that 79% of studies have concluded that "religion has a beneficial effect on mental and physical health" ignores the past completely and effectively says "the ends justify the means," because those religious beliefs have been involved in numerous atrocities to arrive at the point where there is no competition. Do I need to substantiate that also?
The book you base your entire argument on misses the point entirely and I assume it was written to promote a dying belief system.
The simple fact is that many acts that religion promotes such as meditation, inner concentration, sitting quietly, creating a "sacred space," etc is what promotes the mental and physical health. I can back this up with other people's opinions as you seem to think that will prove something:
http://www.holistichealthtools.com/meditation.html
http://yogikamal.wordpress.com/2010/04/ … ve-longer/
http://nccam.nih.gov/health/meditation/
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv … Meditation
And you do not need religion or a belief in God to do these things.
This is what I mean when I say religion limits us. It attempts to limit our understanding in insidious ways like this. By writing a "scientific " study to show the links between religion and health, while deliberately ignoring the actual reasons older people of religious faith are of the opinion that their health and well being is improved because they are religious is at the root of the reason I think religion is evil. There are dozens of studies that show a link between meditative practices and health. But - despite the fact that this is well proven - your religionist friends prefer to try and sell religion back to the masses as a health benefit - not the truth. And you have bought it.
I quote:
"Why this connection between religion and physical health exists, however, remains largely a mystery."
I know why it exists Don.
This is part and parcel of the systematic and artificial rationing of resources that blights our society - in this case - knowledge. Religion was specifically created to do this.
Your one-sided attack has really disappointed me, Don. Using "facts" to sell a lie is the problem. This is what religion - like any type of political party - actually does.
I am not sure it is worth attempting to deal with your other points. If you do not understand that the religions are - by and large - tribal or "ethnic" in their thinking - you have some studying to do.
ciao
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