are we punished if we do not follow Jesus, we have free will an Jesus said that He is going to go and prepare a place for those who want to follow Him. He is not punishing those who do not want to, He is preparing a place for those who chose to follow Him. He is rewarding those who's free will lead them to Him
You know of Jesus; he has no authority to put anybody anywhere. He could not , as per Bible, save himself form a cursed death on the Cross;how could he save anybody else? It is all invention of Paul and the Church.
What about an abstract concept of "saving" paarsurrey? What if someone has an abstract belief in the power of Jesus... and that helps them move through life beneficially... then do all the literal things you believe hold consequences for that person?
Jesus, on the cross, had all authority to save him from the ridicule, torture and even death. But, what would that have proven?
It would prove nothing - as you cannot even prove there was a Jesus or if there were that he died on a cross - or anything really. It is all in the novel you read and whoever wrote it could have chewed the end off his pencil and written anything he pleased.
But don't let facts get in the way of a good novel.
My eyes did not see the man, my ears did not hear His voice. I wish I felt better, (Ernest, you gave me your flu),
Im trying to think of the shortest answer to write that would make my point, but either way I approach it, it would be lengthy. So , here is a note.
Do you not think there are things that can not be seen that you can and do believe in?
We all have free will choice. All of our choices have cause and effect. If we choose Love, we get grace, ease and abundance. If we choose Fear, we get loss, lack and illness.
If we say Jesus is the way of Love, then grace, ease and abundance is your existence. If we say not 'following' Jesus is the way of Fear, then loss, lack and illness is your existence.
I feel there have been many that have come before and since Jesus that have spread the same message. And the important part is are you following the way of Love or not? If you want to call that Jesus, then so be it. If you want to call that something else, you are still going to receive the same thing. It is in how you live and not the label you place on it.
You can believe that if anyone else calls it something else "Buddah, Krishna, Goddess, Nature, Allah" is not going to receive salvation, and that may be your belief and you are here to believe anything you desire.
However Love is Love, and it only has one outcome.... Grace, Ease and Abundance. Belief in it being any other way will not affect the outcome.
Bottom line, if Jesus works for you, and helps you to lead a more enriching life, then go for it!
Let's make a deal. Pick door #1, door #2 or door #3.
Pick any door you choose. Just don't blame me if ya pick the wrong one.
Is that what your saying brother?
Well, as I have heard it explained by many, Jesus died for our sins, so, if sinning includes being unable to reconcile how absurdly impossible those old stories are once you have a grasp of human nature, the nature of language and translation, history, science and a lot of other things, then I'd have to say, you're covered whether you officially accept Him or not. He is supposedly pretty loving and forgiving and I never heard one story of him that said he was a moron, so I'm sure he understands the impossibility of his actual intent making this far into the future after his death without being totally corrupted beyond recognition by the ignorance and arrogance of man.
On the other hand, there are those who believe he is spiteful, hateful and cruel and that he and his father/self will torture people for eternity for their having spent a few years on this rock of a planet unconvinced that a 2000 year old story with a history of bloodshed and nothing working to corroborate it from science is "the truth."
Just depends which version of Jesus you want to go for. The "loving and died for your sins" version or "the hateful and cruel torturer" version.
I'll go for the truth. I have seen His Power , felt His love, and thru His mercy, I keep asking for forgiveness,
Is it just me - or does that start to sound like, "burble, burble, burble," after seeing this meaningless gibberish being repeated over and over and over?
And why do they pretend to ask a question and then proceed to tell u wot god sed?
@ Jerami's brother - Do you really think this dishonest way of communicating is going to convince anyone that u no wot god sed?
Your right. We have felt his powerful love. We have seen what he can do.
We have seen the wonderful change he has made in peoples lives.
He has so much love to give.
I came back in here to see if ya got any responses worth reading.
Love ya brother.
Some more of god's luv!
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Nice little psychopath!
"are we punished if we do not follow Jesus, we have free will an Jesus said that He is going to go and prepare a place for those who want to follow Him."
..... if a creator exists, no one will be punished for anything...it's supposed to be all about love isn't it?...nothing more nothing less......
The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
Which is it and why?
The law that jesus refers to is the OT, the law and prophets.
"think not that i am come to destroy the law and the prophets.. the OT has both.
vs 18... one jot or tittle (used by grammarians of the accents and diacritical points) the meaning is: "not even the minutest part of the law (OT) shall perish".
Children are punished for the sins of the parents
Children are not punished for the sins of the parents
Which is it and why?
...wow...looks like you've done some reading......I won't be looking it up....no need for me...
Context, context, context!
You have to read from chapter ezekiel 18:1 to your verse, to understand why this is going on. I am surprised you in all your correct wisdom about the bible did not comprehend it.
The short form.. god is describing the new dispensation that will occur, and it will not be like the old dispensation but if the son of a corrupt father keep the ways of the Lord the Lord will not visit his fathers sins upon the son.
God is foretelling of the New dispensation to come, therefore this is why things are changing.
Don't you mean....man is re-writing the bible to suit it's own needs?
Nothing in the bible is inspired by any god. It's all for control over people.
Who can identify the sin . If yoy can the WHY question will dissaper
Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house. Psalms 112:1-3
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24
Which is it and why?
That explains why Warren Buffet wants to be buried up a camels ass.
it up the camel's ass has been for a long time
haha... Riches are fine but there are many obstacles in connection with riches in the NT, because we can fly around the world, we can buy ipods and plasma television sets. The wealth has changed and so has what a person can do with wealth.
In the OT it was just a matter of property, livestock, things were weighed instead of cashola. Today, there is so much more opportunity to sin with abundant money, that God has to keep check on how it affects the christians life.
People who have lots of money are pretty okay with their life, they are happy if you ask them and they see no need to come to christ. Their life is okay.
There are many examples of israel in the bible becoming complacent with god because life was good.
It is both and i just said why.
Mostly richmens are failed to fullfill gods expection.pl go through the rich mans cry to ABRAHAM -- PL allow that mans finger drop of water to me or allow me to go and teach my relatives to avoid mistakes .
Most of the people are crying like this after death.
How we can escape and get knowledge to know .
I would have thought that having a brain incapable of learning past religion would be enough punishment for anybody!
just those that fail at christianity, apparently.
apparently, they can. And quite honestly many do. Most of those are people who were once in it and aren't any more. Oh they have such bravado statements about how goddunfailed em and the brother who they didnt like and how its all just crap and meant to control the population.. but actually these are all lies the failed christian tells themselves and of course if you tell yourself something often enough you will believe it OR if you want out because it is too hard the failing christian will always find something make their personal and independant case against god OR they really got deceived somehow but never the less, a non passing grade is a failure grade.
God never fails anybody, people just continually fail god - theres a whole huge book full of people failing god and a small percentage of those that please god.
good luck with this.
I hope it doesnt strike too close to home.
I am glad i could answer your questions though.. if you want to continue a dialog rather than use up space here in the thread, email me instead.
I would have thought that having a brain incapable of
out growing the need to chase grandmas chickens would be something worth getting over.
That would depend on what those chickens were doing.
I don't see any chickens flogging a dead fairy though.
And if you thought they were flogging a ghost?
No, what I see here is a dogmatic and deliberate misunderstanding by religionists who can't think for themselves.
I don't chase chickens, I try to expose lies and thinly disguised megalomania from those who promote religions that cause hate and division.
so witch came first the Camel or the Chicken..?
and if the Cammel came first did it lay a Buffett..?
man I am all confused here!
I don't think it would be possible for camels and chickens to copulate - at least not together.
Yes of course souls are punished for not following christ, this is a main point of christianity and why we even bother tolerating viewpoints from people that stem from ignorance and self pride.
This is for the saved:
Luke 13:28 "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out".
which brought this verse into being:
1 Peter 4:18 "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear"?
Which brought this verse into being:
Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".
for further clarity:
Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's (jesus) book of life".
Need i say more?
You haven't said anything! You have just selectively dragged up the nonsense in the bible that suits your beliefs.
I like this one.
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
This is your god speaking apparently!
Psychotic vicious little god!
You haven't said anything! You have just selectively dragged up parts of the bible that suits your beliefs.
Yep! Lets both do that! I have a few thousand threats to kill by a mad invisible entity I would like to post!
Then we can start on the quoran.
Your half a dozen selective bits from the NT may not cut it!
If you believe the threats from the OT and i quote from the NT then you ought to believe the NT also. You can't just pick and choose what to believe. The whole book is fearfully and wonderfully made and not to be discounted, according to us who believe and we don't really care that you don't like our book because we believe it comes with a convicting spirit that convicts people of their sins, so to the unsaved, who live in sin, we completely understand why you don't like our book. If the mask is that the book is rubbish as you tell us, we totally see through that self justifying lie that you tell yourselves all too often for us but not often enough for you. .
My half dozen selected cuts are truth and totally cut it.
Your disbelief will not affect the truth. There's a lake of fire with sinners names on it lol and i am glad because as you deprecate our experience here, you will only do the same there and so i thank god for keeping sinners OUT.
You missed the whole point as usual. I don't believe a word of any of it remember?
Keep sinners out?
You may want to rethink that. Aren't you and your book flogging the story that ALL have sinned?
You and your threatening sky fairy are very amusing to anyone who can string a bit more than Goddunnit together!
How do you people earn a living in a real world when you can't even read your own crud?
doesn't matter whether you believe any of it, remember.. your belief is not going to unmake God, you can deny him, lie about him, call him names but all he shows you is love, why? because you need it the most. God smiting your family or killing your cat is not going to produce what god wants in you. You say where is free will? and yet you live it each day. You say where is God? and yet he is all around and easily to access and quick to forgive.
Time is gods tool for now.
You are waiting for a damascus event! but that will not happen for solid reasons. You seek a sign but you are 2010 + yrs too late for them.
There are many examples of kings in the bible who treat god as arrogantly as you do and then one day, poof, they are gone.
Believe me my friend you have no throne with us or even a speakers podium, all your repetitious rants fall on deaf ears. Your questions have all been answered and your rants disproved, some by me and another has given you mortal wounds also.
Remember there are no atheists in the fox hole.
Like the rest of the puke you post here you are wrong about the foxholes as well. Read something fer gords sake!
The foxhole thing got wrecked here months ago with something you don't understand.
Have you ever been in a foxhole while mortars are falling and bullets are whizzing by your head?
Its funny how many people find God while they are in that situation or ones similar.
I like to read your proof too earnest. READ WHAT!!
find that article you want us to read please.
hmmmm. a no show.
guess he doesn't believe in backin himself up either
Find it yourself, it's here on the religious forums.
Typical.. You said it.... you find it. I got more important things to do you apparently have 4+ hrs a day to spend here.
did you appreciate how i answered your lame questions above? got any more? you see there is no contradiction in the bible, if there were then that would mean man wrote the bible but you see 4,000 yrs of text from 40 different people from various parts of the globe and NO contradictions because God wanted his book to be accurate, God inspired it, God wrote it.
All those people telling you about hell are not threatening you, they are telling you to look out. There is a difference, are you not able to discern that either?
you don't understand all have sinned either???!!!! omg.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Yes everybody alive has sin in their lives. But God has prepared a way out of this fallen state. This is why jesus christ is so very important.
The issue is not who has sinned or what sin but who has had their sins forgiven.
That is the question.
If God did not prepare a way out then all would be in vain. Of course there is a way not to live in sin and have all our past sins forgiven. God had a B plan from the beginning.
To have ones sins forgiven is an amazing feeling of freedom and then to experience the power of being able to refuse sin and temptation is what IT is all about.
Are you saying Earnie is acting like a religionist? LOL
Admitting that's what believers do, Earnest was only pointing out the bits that were not selected. He is filling in the gaps, so to speak.
filling in the gaps... okay.. the only thing that fills in the gaps that earnests post supposedly fill is context, context, context.
something people who merely read and do not study seem to completely skip and therefore they do come up with ludicrous assumptions about what the truth is.
Gods word is very complete, organized, rife with wisdom that far supercedes upright monkey mentality.
I don't go around trying to explain the parts about god killin because i don't want to impart fear into the unsaved who know not god. I do impart jesus, the new dispensation of love and mercy, yes, grace too. God will kill the unsaved but i don't want people coming to christ because of fear of gods ability to smart bomb with hail but because of gods unfailing love. Truly, as god picks undesirable parts out of the new christian the first few years can be tough, but once all the rubble is out of the way, building the new person in christ can begin, but it has to be built on love, not fear.
After the person comes to God through jesus christ and they learn about gods killing, the fact that they are saved from gods killing is just a huge bonus! There is no fear in them that walk in christ jesus.
Isn't that called, "Cherry Picking?" You only choose what you want to believe and ignore the rest?
Then, he isn't a loving compassionate god, he is a despot.
The same could be said about any despot whereupon the people that don't obey and worship him are killed.
not at all.
Its all true.
You have to understand what God was killing.
If God were not loving, he would not have brought his people out of the slavery of egypt, he would not have promised to give them a place of their own, he would not have 'given' his Son, jesus christ to die on the cross for remission of sins, and a host of other lovin stuffs i haven't mentioned. You think i worship a God who is not loving.. really, wake up.
Yes, you do worship a god that is not loving. The bible is rife with such stories, which I see you've conveniently left out of your "cherry picked" post.
There is actually a new testament.
So you want proof.. grasp this... God manifests himself and lives in jerusalem. It was televised, happened only an hour ago.. You don't believe it and reach for a cigarette.. an invisible hand slaps yours, grabs the smokes crushes them and disappears. You have a married woman down the road you 'visit' mondays and thursdays, but for some reason your car won't start on monday and thursday and the phone number is saying you dialed wrong. You begin to argue with your wife about some trivial thing and God enters the room and sits you both down for a chit chat about husbands love your wives and wives submit to your husbands... is this what you want?
Because i bet the next thing you want is to separate God from his holiness. Holiness is the only thing that keeps a society running smoothly, families happy and everything in tip top shape. God does not want to live in a world of sins, but you do because the alternative is to much to bear... but so is the solution.
I have a hub forthcoming on this very topic.. ill letcha know when thats ready.
your arguments are so old earnest and repetitive. Learn something new will ya.
Just dropped by - nice to find people are still preaching their hate and intolerance and fear. It would be interesting to imagine the 'holier than thou' contributors to this thread confronted by a real god at their day of judgement - I don't think any of you would be going to your mythical heaven guys.
we will do well. You forget that God sent his Son that whosoever should believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life. After this, the christian life is a growing and learning experience. A relationship of change. We are not what we were a year ago, nor 2 years ago. The fact we dispute with unsaved evolved upright monkies doesn't mean we are in trouble with God.
I think you are wrong to think where we will be.. but shall i hazard a guess at where you will be is what you should be asking yourself.
have a great day
I am curious of what happened to people before christ..now christ is just 2k years old while human race is 0.2 million years old..now what happened to these people?...even if we have to reject 0.2 million, we can't reject indus valley civilization and other civilizations..right?..so what happened to those people?
Before christ GODS power fullfill only the messangers not all .
After christ GODS power to all . Previously body and soul are dead.
After christ Soul are alive and all dead people are not dead.This is the gift.
We can kill our body not soul . GOD only can destroy both.
LET US ALL BE LOVE PEACE FREE THIS IS WHO WE ARE TO THE CORE OF OUR BEING. WE CAN ALL GET ALONG TOGETHER BY BEING THIS AND THE REST OF THE THINGS WILL BE TAKEN CARE OF NATURALLY THAT IS NOT OF THE NATURE OF LOVE PEACE FREE. THIS HAS TO BE DRUM IN YOUR HEAD AND HEART OVER AND OVER AGAIN BECAUSE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT YOU ARE LOVE PEACE FREE IN THIS ENVIRONMENT ON EARTH. I KNOW THAT THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN OVER NIGHT BUT BY ONE PERSON AT A TIME. THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING AND I HAVE FOREVER TO WATCH THIS COME INTO BEING ON THE PLANET EARTH FOR MANKIND, THROUGH THE EXAMPLE OF JESUS CHRIST KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. YOU ARE ALREADY PUNISHING YOURSELF NOW BY NOT BEING LOVE PEACE FREE. GOD IS NOT PUNISHING YOU BUT WITH OPEN ARMS AND HEART SPEAKING TO YOU NOW THROUGH AMBASSADOR BUTLER TO BE NOW LOVE BE NOW PEACE BE NOW FREE. GOD IS TALKING TO YOU NOW AND WILL YOU CHOOSE TO HEAR HIS VOICE OR IGNORE IT AND MAKE EXCUSES WHY THAT YOU ARE NOT LOVE PEACE FREE. IF YOU ARE NOT THIS THEN YOU ARE THE OTHER THING THAT IS NOT LOVE PEACE FREE AND WILL AUTOMATICALLY GET THE RESULTS OF BEING THIS IN YOUR LIFE NOW EVERY MOMENT OF EVERY DAY. THANK YOU. GO IN PEACE.
I do not believe that the higher power punishes us for finding different ways to comprehend the spiritual world.
You are Mr McDonald and have established a franchise chain world wide, which anyone can join as a franchisee (not actually true of McDonald's, but true for God).
Next door you see a rival chain set up and say they are the better burger.
When they go bust, do you say to all their franchisees, no worry, I'll pick up the loses?
Yeah - prolly a good analogy. God = McDonalds. Great advertising, garbage product, disinterested staff, money making franchise operation. Popular with ignorant, poor people and indoctrinated children, and will eventually be closed down for abusing the customers. Yes. The only real difference I see is McDonalds do better plastic toys to buy children's loyalty.
Pretty meaningless argument though - especially as you are once again going against god's word and arguing with unbelievers. Oh well - thanks for validating my opinion that none of you are actually christians and cannot follow your meaningless rule book.
No argument Mark, just explaining by analogy what someone asked a question about.
I try to answer questions, much more productive than just taking snide digs at something you deny exists.
You must deep down, be afraid you are wrong.
Not at all. Deep down I would like it if people like yourself stopped causing so much strife and ill will. I can see you were arguing so not sure how you think telling porkies is going to change that. I realize your ethical belief system encourages that sort of behavior, but still.
It is right there in black and white. You were not answering a question - you were arguing your baseless case.
I did like the McDonalds thing. Very apropos. Cheap crap, good sales team.
You have no answers other than repetitive, argumentative, largely meaningless dogma which you cannot, and demonstrable do not, follow.
All very reassuring Mark, if you ever say a kind word I will start to worry that I am lukewarm!
I would say a kind word if you would listen. I decided not to bother after the first few attempts. Now I simply point out - and will continue to do so - that you do not follow the ethical standard you are attempting to foist on everyone else.
The bible warns of people like you. The "do as I say, not as I do" variety of believers, which - as you seem to agree - is most of them.
a perfect example that mark just likes to argue. He doesn't even care if he makes any sense or approaches the question or acknowledges anything other than his own troubled thoughts.
I say forget this one folks
his bumper sticker says "gehenna or bust"
btw mark if we do not argue with upright evolved monkies how will they ever learn the truth. God does not say, do not argue with speaking monkies, he says, reprove works of darkness, cleanse the temple of wrongdoers. We are not in trouble with god because we tell you what you are, mostly hubpages mod will ban us You certainly need more argument than discussion but that is just another form of bullying and most bullies end up with egg on their face eventually.
enjoy your breakfast, i am sure you have had quite a few already..
did i speak in a parable
yes He does. We may look at it like punishment but actually it is more like by necessity. God looks for happy creations to live happily and only by gods ways can this be accomplished. When we look at the state of the world and peoples lives we can only make the conclusion that sin has accomplished this. Well, gods people do not live in sin. Sin is eliminated from our lives piece by piece until the day we die. Those problems we had 13 yrs ago are no longer troublesome to us because gods ways are best.
So in the new heaven and earth, which we will occupy only those who are trained by gods spirit have the keys or permission to dwell in His land.
If god were to let any old corrupt person in, then we would have an adam and eve situation all over again. Because the ways of man are contrary to gods ways.
Its like in your house. You post an add and a guy pulls up with all his methadone equipment and a string of methies behind him are you going to let him rent the house? no. God has requirements to ensure happiness and peace forever more.
i do not blame him for this, i thank him.
Bible is a very convenient book - you can find anything you want in it. I see it as a compilation of old fairy tales badly adopted to contemporary life and useful for immature adults only.
Mark, you are so-o-o-o funny,I almost chocked on my sandwich!
lol I try. Just had a great idea and bought McChristianity.com
Look out for some fun with that one.
Why not? Already finding some fun stuff.
Mark, do you think you are so cool or something? If you do, then I believe you have been having unprotected whatever with the sun again. Why do I believe this? Well, I think anyone who sees humor in the photo you just posted has to have fried brains.
Nowhere, in any post that I have read, have I seen one person belittle, or even try to for that matter, any belief that you may have.
I did use to ask myself why you want to treat the people of faith the way you do. I do not do that any longer. I know now that you are just so miserably insecure in your belief that you feel threatened by ours.
If you do not see that religion is just a commercial scam that has got out of hand then that is because you are unable to see the whole picture of your 'faith'. The fact that others can see more than you must be frustrating I would agree.
ap, evening friend. Just to let you know, before you go getting your drawers in a wad, my faith of choice is Nature.
I know, there are probably some out there that disagree. Thats ok. Just like it for me to disagree about some other faith than what I have chosen. Where the problem is you see is the belittling attempts made by some. That should not happen.
Explain your faith, listen to others explain theirs, talk about the differences. Both can be done without all the childish name calling.
There is a time and place for everything. Even a time to be childish. But hurtful? Why would anyone want to be? That, friend, is what is frustrating. Hell, if many agreed exactly as I do, I would worry.
Have a great evening.
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