Tired of all the religious threads filling up the HP forum? Are you sick to death of people telling you that you are bad and wrong for not believing in any god?
Are you sick of trying to have a real discussion with people when suddenly your thread is derailed by religious ideologies who steal and claim works that were never theirs to begin with, theirs?
Do you get exorbitantly angry when religion uses other peoples works from people who are not one of them, and say that they were just to get ahead?
Are you tired of being the minority and shouted to death over how wrong and bad your 'minority' status is and how much of a threat you are to the world even though you have never actually done anything wrong?
Are you tired of every single site being overhauled with religious post, cut and paste, burn in Hell type of stuff that you feel like you are being bullied into never talking about how you really feel about these things?
If you answered yes, then please tell everyone how you really feel.
You don't have to direct your post towards anyone so you don't get banned by someone who had taken something personally. You don't have to respond to the "off to the gallows" echo calls from the religious folks who most always will fill the thread up anyways with more of their ridiculousness.
I doubt much of anyone will post here anyways because Atheist are minorities, expected to just submit to everything. You are expected to sit down and shut up like religions teach you. You are expected to chase your tail and just be happy that you aren't out getting your head chopped off for not believing in such things that want to kill you.
I did not like preacher when they get serious about hell and frighten people to convert them. It works because most people are run by fear rather than love, and I'm fearless. The downside of atheist is a positive imagination as evident downsides within your post. Science, in which is one branch in the tree of life, is all you have to offer, without the positive imagination. Then the bullies will win again. After being on a few atheist websites, not one atheist will tell me what their downside is. Until then, the 3% atheist will NOT exceed 5% of the world population and lead in public office. Other wise, I would help them by coaching or cheering them along.
I was not aware that they were doing this everywhere and not just here at HP. Figures though. Sounds like they got together and had a meeting...
Hawking their religion is part of their bylaws. It is not going to go away. And reason doesn't work with them. I guess we just have to accept them as we do flies, gnats, and other pests.
Private entity websites do have the legal right to ban religious posts… Sooner or later, the backlash of being buried in religious posts will result in more and more websites exercising their right to ban them. But it will probably be awhile yet.
I would not want atheist banned. Its just better to have a plan and reason will work, just not alone. Often I like insults, they help me grow.
It's the religionists that “everyone” wants banned, not the atheists. Re-read the OP.
Are you telling me many religious kinds do not want to ban atheists?
Try talking about atheist on many religious sites. Both ways, no need to ban religious fight clubs, just shirk them into the spiritual age. Most kid today are spiritual rather than religious, just many of the older religious types are hanging on.
Oh, my! We appear to be in agreement on this one!
once again its your right to write any where you want God is by choice not force degradation abuse or control. THis why many religions hate freedom of choice in God Jesus the holy spirit
I have been on both sides of this fence in God atheist now the points are war must end peace freedom must come thirty thousand children are dying every day we argue about human nonsense believe what you will but help save the earth the human race for all people
To be a religious person means, that you can rely on somebody (God)who will help you if you pray hard, who will solve your problems, who will guide you through your life. Who will wipe your tears and share your joy. Isn't it wonderful? For atheist it is just YOU on one end - huge unknown Universe one the other. No one but yourself to solve your problems, no one but YOU to correct your mistakes and find the right decisions. There is no community for you to come and share your common beliefs or ask for a help when you need one. For most that nakedness of your soul is unbearable, unbelievable. They prefer that religious "cushion" to fall upon.
What's your pick?
Just because it would really be nice for something to exist (God), doesn’t mean that it automatically does exist. To be able to wish something into existence would be quite a feat indeed.
PS I, for one, hope you are right!
saying i hope you are right means your agnostic anyways i don't care, the point is the OP made many false statements and it's crock. I'ts you guys who pick on us.
This thread isn't FOR YOU to be in, so why are you here?
So, you can boost your faith a little more? Hmm....?
then why do you constantly come into the Christian forums?
Are you practice what you preach or not?
Because, I have no religion and watching people talk, brings about my action. I don't mind games and I do care about people. I have already stated my challenge to any believer.
Walk in the doctrine of your god and see what happens to you.
Other than that- when I see people(regardless of religion or not) lying or distorting truth, then something must be said.
To me it doesn't matter you're online or offline. If you cannot take the heat of a rational discussion and do it with civility, then apparently you do not fall into the guidelines of your own religious doctrine, which supposedly follow?
Are you old enough to be here, can I check your id?
In the world, mmmm
Stop pick on them atheists!!!
kind of you how old do I have to be to be in here?
you should write some hubs, Castlepaloma......I mean you have 0
But you came here. So who came to pick on who? I asked atheist to say what they really think. Instead there are five pages of believers making this their stomping ground...again.
you do it to us.
otherwise I wouln't
it's a stupid thread
Your opening statement I felt was very insulting, that is why I am here my dear woman sandra. Why do we have to insult others when we are all nice people??
I did not insult you. In fact, you took it upon yourself to take it personally. So unless you do any of the for-mentioned things in the OP, then there was never anything insulting said.
However you did do exactly what I figured some would do and the only thing to be said about that is that you saw "Atheist" and decided it was your stomping ground so you would either see who was talking smack about atheist and join the gang with some laughs and ha ha's the atheist are full of crap, or you would feel offended and offer up the same insight..haha the atheist are crap.
Which of course you did so either way, you were looking for someone to call crap.
Oh I see. cause "people telling you that you are bad and wrong for not believing in any god?
I thought it was directed to me since I'm Christian.
oops my bad.
NO, I guess I misunderstood. I told people before my boyfreind is atheist and I don't stomp on people unless I feel stomped on.
You seem to have alot of anger and assumptions on ME.
I said crap cause i didn't have the energy to argue and again your OP thing I felt was wrong.
YOU seem mean
and I'm just a schoolgilr.
Perhaps like mentioned above I should stay away....my innocence though not age,,,,is fragile.
I was actually tempted to start a thread asking for them to remove the religion forum. It serves no purpose here other than to cause needless arguments.
This is a site for writers, and those looking to make money online foremost. I feel as if the forum should reflect that.
I don't shut up.
I tolerate religion the same way I tolerate neighbors with dogs. Keep 'em reasonably quiet and out of my yard and we will get along fine. Otherwise, yes, I will speak up and loudly.
I don't mean your dog can never bark and that you can never say anything religious, I do mean that I don't particularly like dogs or religion, but if I don't have to have much direct interaction, we should all be fine.
I used to get PO'd at some of the rediculous crap that gets passed around as knowledge by the religous folks outthere until I discovered this little fact. 8 of the least educated states in America are in the top 10 most religous states here. I simply consider the source and make an educated guess as to their intelligence level and then simply feel sorry for them. The so called fundies have proven to be more destructive to christianity than any atheist could ever hope to be. The spend as much if not more time attacking other christians as they do atheists. Why would anyone want to follow a belief system that is suseptable to interpretaion by any and all who subscribe. Religous belief is nothing more than a fancy label most people like to wear in public to show others that they think they are the good guys. Too many christians feel that atrocities aren't really so bad when they are done by good christian folks in their god's name.
Athiests are a minority? It doesn't really make sense for us to "do anything about it." Athiests wouldn't post here because this is a religious forum. It's like going to the fairly tales forum and posting how much we disagree with them. oohh wait, where are we again?
We are in the RELIGION forum!
If atheists are upset by the discussions herein
Quite simple, really, (to use a well and truly overused phrase by certain atheists.)
Maybe request an atheist forum. I'd be happy to stay out of it.
I remember my earliest posts in the RELIGION forum.
I couldn't believe the barrage of verbal abuse I copped! From whom?
Atheists, non other.
You guys aren't victims, as you so plainly claim to be. Grow up, please.
Oh, and the big argument that's always sprouted, "freedom of speech. I can post in the religion forum if I want". That works both ways.
No, this is the RELIGION forum
"Atheist", is a topic within the "R" forum.
If I post a topic on Jesus, why do atheists get involved?
That would make it the Jesus forum.
actually, this is the religion and beliefs forum, and HP have lumped atheists in here. This is also an open forum. If you want to only talk to other christians, you will have to find a closed forum.
If I start a thread about christianity, I put it under christian topic - this does not mean I want only christians to comment
I am a man of God its no persons right to tell you how to think live love human freedom is one of Gods truest gifts of life
this wrong not how God Jesus taught by human freedom peace birth right freedoms of all human and holy choices
Do atheist have a voice, or rights or choices other than the holy bible?
yes God is freedom of choice in Jesus the holy spirit god forces no person to believe live free yet care about human healing amomg all people nations lives peace freedom are the only answer
yeah, some people are pretty annoying and the arguments are frustraing. I wrote a hub about my impressions of the forum. I've written 3 hubs now that relate to atheist/religion, and my ex-christian hub is my most read and commented on hub. I've got 2 more hubs in the pipeline, addressing issues raised.
I try not to take it too seriously, look out for funny, amusing, worthwhile quotes to stick in my hubs, get a feel for common objections etc, and try my best to refrain from calling certain individuals Neanderthals!
Honestly I just don't care what they create or make up or try to tell me, they have to live with it, not me.. That's their problem.
Not that I will tell them to believe otherwise, I just don't respond back.
Just for the record, I am neither religionist nor atheist.
Who are you then? You have to believe into something.
I believe in always trying to be ethical in conduct. Hurray, we have something in common after all!
Are you kind to all living things? Do you participate in the rape of the planet and the wasting of it's resources?
We are not wasting our resources - we are using them . Not always wisely, mostly recklessly. But we don't know any other ways, we don't have time for that, we don't have knowledge for that. But we are better already and will be wiser in future I am sure. We are slowly learning our lessons.
WELL then. I still feel threatened by those big, bad atheists. I find it hard to trust someone who is only answerable to themselves, morality wise, since I know that each of us has their own moral "thermometer". I do find it amusing that certain deists hold to the same fallacies that some of the non-deists hold to. Free will. In a totally scientific world, free will doesn't exist, it also can't exist in a God world, because there is only one will. God's. I read atheists attacking religion, when atheism itself is a religion.
Hey Druid, I wrote a hub on morality. You might consider reading it, this way there isn't any further mistakes on your account.
There is no god. To act as if there is proof of a god, because we exist and a good book told, demeans hundreds of years of research and discovery done by humanity. It is already bad enough many religious types use "god" as a crutch, because they cannot be fully responsible for themselves.
Morality isn't a "god" idea or rule. Morality is a man-made ideology. It is about understanding our own conscience and actions.
How does everyone else's measure up to you. Remember, we're probably outnumbered, especially if you are "very moral". And by the way, exactly what is the historical foundation of your morals?
And, one more thing. If no one else accepts your moral model, to what lengths would you be willing to go to make your moral model go global. That's the only way any of us will find peace. Not with each individual pursuing their own morality, but with everyone following the same. Oterwise, there will always be dissent.
Why not let scientist help (who mainly are non believers in God). !!!
Since politics’ is science base and the non believe care more about the natural environment. Rather than putting Atheist or agnostic down, put them to service.
To say scientists are mainly believers in a No-God concept is not a verifiable statement. There are many scientific disciplines, including archaeology and astronomy, and though some may have a higher incidence of Atheists, I really don't believe that you can cite any support for your statement, and anyone in a God concept based belief that does not protect all creation is foolish and has been deceived. They certainly do not accurately represent me, or anyone I know.
Mostly is a better word than mainly.
Scientific American, September 1999
"Scientists and Religion in America"
"Whereas 90% of the general population has a distinct belief in a personal god and a life after death, only 40% of scientists on the B.S. level favor this belief in religion and merely 10 % of those who are considered 'eminent' scientists believe in a personal god or in an afterlife."
god no god all people need to live eat medical care freedom peace this not just holy human truth but human must to stabilize humanity
why do we all care about the earth human life human rights needs cares peace freedom no matter what any person believes?
When people's actions are based on delusional thoughts or ideas, then they become more dangerous than any atomic weapon on the planet.
you make every Christian sound psychotic. I think you are, you are insulting and egotistical saying you are right, you might as well say you are a god. bullcrap
What did I say that was so insulting to you personally?
You know, you need to learn how to be civil. Secondly, if people are running around with delusions, they ARE dangerous.
What part did you not comprehend in my statement? Please do clarify.
"When people's actions are based on delusional thoughts or ideas"
This is civil? Spouting out on every R&B forum telling people they are crazy for having faith, for trying to lead good lives, comparing all religions to be the same, saying we're like people who are terrorits?
Your def of delusion is not the same as faith. Faith is not delusion, you just like to be rude and call it so.
Civil? would you rather I had written 20 paragraphs like sandra, when I just said crap?!!!
You are a liar and a mean one.
But you are acting crazy. You didn't offer anything just that every atheist is crap and you somehow believe that we are immoral people who are going to beat you up because we don't believe in your god.
Answer the question, what made you think that?
You know, I've recently been banned, for actions you could be accused of in this post alone.
Please, do try to keep up- the statement you quote said "people's actions" are based on delusional thoughts or ideas, then they become dangerous. That is NOT a lie. It has been scientifically proven that delusional thoughts are dangerous.
I didn't call faith delusional and you should stop putting words into my mouth and read the words written, instead of jumping without using comprehension.
If you could write 20 paragraphs of anything that didn't include irrational ranting, then I would be impressed. If you could write anything 20 paragraphs and separate out your religious view, then maybe I'd actually believe there is a god. However, since I've seen how you act, I guess there would be no point in making the wager.
I haven't said anything that could be construed as a lie. Up to this point, I haven't really said much, until your posting. I said there is no god. I know there is no god, because the supposed doctrine your supposed god supposedly created are unattainable by any living human being on the planet.
I'm sorry, if you cannot accept that. Too bad, it's the truth.
If it is psychotic to believe in things that do not and cannot exist, then yes, I would have to agree.
No one can Prove God exists
or does Not exist
So I guess it makes you and I both psychotic, no?
After all you have rainbow hair.......
to believe in a belief that demands goodness is not wrong, illiterate, delusional or bollocks. It is a fantastic belief that sends people into all sorts of situations to do good. Someone who doesn't lust after your hot wife is a blessing to you, isn't it. Someone who returns your lost wallet makes you grateful huh.. etc.
To believe in nothing is dangerous. To believe in peoples ability to resist the greed and lust of this world and to put others before themselves, to be considerate in traffic.. well that is just playing russian roulette.
For example, angry atheists who bully and yell at christians and troll them hoping to provoke a response by insulting God... this is a more dangerous person than someone who wants to save souls from hell.
History is made up of man governing himself and look at it. You put far too much faith in the works of mankind than in the belief of any Gods goodness.
imho, the above is an intelligent, thoughtful statement.
In other words, what I believe she is saying is that we are aware of and are trying to solve these problems.
H@ll, no. Any insect or bacteria that gives me a hard time immediately gets stomped on.
Every chance I get.
And then there are steak dinners. Two for one!
Count me in. I'm an ever evolving carnivore!
god kindness is Jesus the holy spirit religions for to long have used god human birth right against the human race. no child should hunger peace freedom human care ids the true answer
Why do I have to believe in something? The fact that you need a belief to hold on to in order to have purpose and meaning in your life doesn't mean that I also have this need. I assumed you think that atheism is a belief in something, am I right?
I think it is surreal to have to believe in a god to do good. I think the "christian principal" about everyone not being good people even if they are, are not good unless they also believe in god but not just any god, their god and not just their god, their specific to them god.
I think it is insidious for certain religious folks to feel like they have been given an extra right, or have somehow been exalted over someone who has never actually done anything wrong but does not believe in any god, over someone who does lots of wrong but believes in a god; to act as though they are allowed to say rude and disrespectful things to people that don't believe in those things.
To come over a thread which they already knew would serve them no purpose lest it be to taunt and bully for not believing. So the only reason they do is to make sure that they are heard except that they are always heard because they are always shouting.
The other day while leaving the school there were people passing out Bibles to little kids. They know they aren't supposed to be there passing them out on school grounds so they figure that if they stand right outside the gates, then it is legit.
They don't take into account that some parents do NOT want their kids to have anything to do with it.
And for sure, you can bet that someone will call me a bad mother for insisting that my child has nothing to do with that cursed little book until she is old enough to understand the things she is reading.
Why is it so friggin' hard for them to comprehend that some people (myself) find most of them to be intrusive and disrespectful?
The next time I see someone passing out bibles at school I will say something or I will take the book and toss it under a passing car.
Leave the kids alone and for Christ sake, if someone says no, them leave them alone!
The Chidren should not be deprived of the religion; or reading a book. Why should they be left as an easy prey for the Atheists and their wrong thinking?
Atheists wrong thinking? says who? paar?lol.
hey lets start dissecting wrong thinking in islam,shall we?
The Atheists are human beings like anybody else; so they can be wrong. Can't they?
really paar ? twist in statement ?
Your statement was in opposition to atheism for which you have no defense from your cult islam. So in comparison to islam how wrong atheists are ? tell me.
Druid Dude, where is this starship you speak of on your profile? I think a little midnight race is in order. Mine is ready to go.
So whom we are praying today to - God, aliens or steak dinner?
In truth...you pray to one, you pray to all.
Just take your pick...since the concept is meaningless.
"Dear God, if you can give me a steak dinner every night,keep aliens at bay for the next 30 years, may be at the end of the term I will believe in you, amen. No guarantee though, just keep steaks coming."
No world peace? Why do you want foriegners at bay? You keep eatin' steaks every night, better off prayin' for a coronary bypass.
I think alien are very under rated and the only one right, big man in the sky is over rated.
If an alien meet you at your door, and told you there was no big man in the sky. Would you believe him?
OK, OK, just mashed potatoes with mushroom gravy, please.
I don't mind, I am a very peaceful lady, when I am not hungry.
Religion is a subset of philosophy.
Atheism is a subset of philosophy.
And here is one you will really hate:
The concept of Jesus is a subset of philosophy.
Sorry about that.
Leave your mind open. Continue to search for truth. The learning process in life never ends.
Bye for now. (again)
Atheism is not necessarily a subset of philosophy. Not believing is purple Siberian Figglebots isn't a subset of philosophy, is it?
I agree that some people reach this conclusion through philosophical thought. However, for some of us it was simply the default condition and the arguments presented for religion did not pass muster.
God Jesus the holy spirit faith humanity human needs cares rights freedoms needs are the only human way to peace. You have rights even of God to make your own human holy choices without force power control degradation of any human life. Think about human needs wants peace freedom
god Jesus the holy spirit are the human birth right for good only people religions use God as a human weapon to kill starve genocide human life
read God teaches is covers all human rights values needs peace freedom by human birth right allows belief support to all human cares rights needs world wide .
unless we find human unity peace freedom we are all going to suffering all nations look around the world hell is right at our backdoor.
Repost of original.
Uh, this is the atheist forum. Says so right at the top.
However, you are welcome to post here.
I'm not an atheist and I've been blathering here all afternoon!
But I'm done for now.
It's not hard to find a narrow minded and short sighted atheist though. And yes, there are just as many dumb atheists as there are dumb christians.
we all carry pour beliefs choices in this world there still is the greatest human need to unify for all humanity peace freedom world wide. You can not believe in God yet be the best person who helps the whole human race
its not a matter of who is dumb people are dying starving homeless all over the world this needs all human attention to end human life without growth
Not the case at all. Persons of low intelligence almost always fall for religion. I have never even heard of one who did not.
It would have been nice to see people looking for a cooperative viewpoint to discuss specifics, rather than droning on and on about a prefered point of view. But that is why it keeps happening, nobody directs the disagreement into a dialog about something. (that might be useful?)
Back from work to see the thread derailed as I had mentioned in the OP. I am not surprised.
If I believed in god then I would be a prophet, not hard to figure out what is going to happen but since I don't I can rely on other observable evidence to support the whole reason I posted the thread to begin with.
Derailed! PS. yes, it really isn't just HP that gets derailed.
It stands to reason that oober religious folks do not want to hear an atheist and gawd forbid others hear what the atheist have to say and they be damned if by their tolerance others decide (because they are allowed) not to believe in their detestable deity.
And Pcunix, I agree. Well... except for the part about liking dogs, I like dogs but I don't like yappy ankle biters! lol
Why don't you all come over to my house and beat the crap out of me? I mean that's why you do w/ your tongue lashing.
Jesus was crucified, why not beat me to death?
This is crap. I say crap!
Why would you think that? What made you think like that? Why would you think that anyone who doesn't believe in your god come over to your house and beat the crap out of you? Where did you get that from?
Perhaps it is what she would like to do to atheists?
I don't think that. I just think that you all should try to be nicer is all.
"Sticks and stones can break my bones but names will never hurt me"
Well, sometimes names or mean things said do hurt.........I am just an innocent schoolgirl trying to be good.
If you cannot take someone's words, then you lack understanding tolerance. Which also means, you lack the ability to accept them.
Thus, you have made your life in and on a path that leads to intolerance and denial. Welcome to being selfish.
I was explaining that I don't want to beat up anyone. Why is that selfish?
I f someone will not accept anothers point of view or belief then welcome to being selfish.
the selfish tag is such a dupes facade. Anyone can be easily labelled as selfish. Argumentative? = selfish. Tollerant? = selfish. Not going to disneyland = selfish. Euthanize your cat? = selfish.
lol the selfish lie shows spiritual deadness.
Some of these cats can improve on their manners.
I’ve been mugged twice and one other time I got mugged by 40 monkeys (true story). Sticks and stones hurt a lot more than words by experience.
You will be safe enough here, just don't give out name or address information about yourself, unless private.
I wouldn't have entered but why should I let you "beat us up" constantly in OUR forums? and not say crap?
You are more than welcome to have your own discussions w/ out me.....I'd gladly not come in.......once you do the same.
God love you
God bless you
Go in peace my child
I will just poke my head in the door here and say this.
Christians, we do not like it when atheists hijack our forums and try to impose their beliefs on us, So we should give them the same respect we would like to have from them.
You are actually not helping the situation by insighting arguments here when Sandra obviously did not ask for our opinions.
If we do not like this behavior when we try to conduct a religious forum we should not be do it here, it is contradictory to what Jesus teaches. Our actions are supposed to be a witness to others. Not make them feel like an attack.
If they do come to the religious forums and try to push their beliefs on you, then stand up for yourself, not here where you have not been invited to do so.
Sorry Sandra for stepping in when you didn't ask for my input.
"our forums" - these are not closed, private forums. I start threads according to what topic it is about eg put to christianity if about that - doesn't mean only christians are to answer
No I guess you missed what I was trying to say, the OP asked a specific question to a specific group of people.
I just think getting into these conversations when your opinion isn't asked for just asks for trouble and doesn't show respect to the op.
Atheists have said our topics are not sacred. Everytime we jump into a atheist thread someone cries, hey get out. LOL. I have never met a bigger bunch of whiners. But then those who are losing the race never have smiles on their faces.
no i dont get upset...it is their belief which makes them say so...for me their belief is myth but for them it is real..it is ultimate reality for them ..believers or non believers every one has his/her versions of how things are , what is truth, which book is true or fake and such things...it is ok with me when believers say 'you would go to hell' ..for me hell doesnot exist and for them it does...so why should i get upset on something that doesnot exist...
Should I wait until somebody would email me and ask for my opinion? Utterly ridiculous!
It's a forum. Not an educational board. Anybody can come and tell his opinion on ANYTHING,folks, no matter how silly it might be.
Am I right?
The beauty of this world is in its diversity.
So anybody has a chance to laugh at something!
I always wait to be officially invited. I rc'd three such invitations today, sent Registered Mail (a little annoying to have to answer the door to sign for them, but so it is). They are lovely letters - embossed HubPages stationery, a really nice type face and that red wax seal beside the signature is very impressive.
My understanding is that one you reach permanent 100 score, they send you a 1 year "License to Post", which is automatically renewed if you remain active. I aspire to that, and not just because I had to put on clothes to go to the door for the mail.
It must be very expensive for HP to do these letters and bitterly disappointing that some of you just charge ahead and post without having been asked. That's quite rude, and I would not be at all surprised if you later get something quite nasty from them for your cheeky disregard of protocol.
Oh, if you do get a letter, be sure to check for the hologram and the microprinting - I have heard these are often counterfeited and sent to people who do not deserve them in hopes that they will post and become embarrassed when their error is disclosed. You would not want to be caught at that!
Just to be on a safe side, I officially declare that I am a tea pot!
by Pauline C Stark 3 years ago
Why Do Religious People Get So Angry At Atheists?When it comes to Atheism, most religious people get angry and even combative when it comes to this subject. I wonder why, especially in this day and age, one would feel anger towards another human being with a different perception/outlook/belief....
by pisean282311 10 years ago
where you ever in any religion and what made you become atheist or agnostic?
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by arthriticknee 11 years ago
There is no Atheist text.This ensures Atheists can't manipulate the ambiguous writings from 2,000 - 3,000 years ago to justify their actions.As far as I am aware, no one has committed mass murder in there name of there being no God.The vast majority of modern religions have had countless atrocities...
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Seen a video that asked this question! If one some feel the world would be better without religion, or supernatural, spiritual. Explain how it would make people's lives better?
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