In light of the recent massacre of 50 Christians at a Baghdad church, and the negligent help that they got from the local authorities, is it time to help the persecuted Christian minority out of Iraq by offering them asylum?
probably. i think the bigger issue here is what are we going to do to get our soldiers out of iraq, as that's the bigger question. of course, it won't be easy, as the only thing keeping the insurgents and terrorists from taking over that area, is our own military. if we pull out now, then everyone there is screwed. therefore, i think it might be a while, as this could end up being the longest war we've ever had, since vietnam...
I think the drawdown of our military has already started and efforts have focused on Afghanistan. For the most part, the Iraqi police and forces are doing the major work while our military give them backup and support.
this all sounds /done and dusted/full of lovely military speak
the final drawdown/ the re location /everything is grand etc
is thiis a military decision based on the ground conditions or a political promise made by obama a year ago
if this place is left in a mess they will chase you all the way home to wall street
Not without asking them if they want out.
I'm curious as to why Christians are being persecuted in Iraq? Is it politics? Oil? Why are they being persecuted and not others?
Regardless of persecution, there are hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who were not Christians, who were murdered also. Christian persecution is pretty small in comparison. And I'm not implying it's justified in any way, I'm saying it's a part of the whole problem, not a singular problem apart from the rest.
Yes, obviously, because they are the only ones worth saving.
Yes, probably a good idea as they do not seem to have any support at all. It does look urgent too, so I hope it happens immediately.
It is a shame we can't sit back and let people destroy themselves. They always do that is such a way as it gets all over everyone else.
And besides ! The US of A is the one that got it all outa balance anyway.
It is kinda our responsibility to stick it out till something happens to help balance everything back out again.... OOps
too late shouldn't have done that. OH Well ... sigh!!
I think Saddam Hussein went a long way to get Iraq out of balance.
Yea but he some how seems to have kept the rest of the region in balance some how. Maybe??
I don't know about that, he warred with Iran and he invaded Kuwait which dragged us and the rest of the world into that first gulf war.
I think Saddam Hussein went a long way to get Iraq out of balance.
Are you kidding?
Hussein was apparently the only person that could hold the populace of
Iraq in check.
"I think Saddam Hussein went a long way to get Iraq out of balance."
You do know that the US propped Saddam up, right? And supplied him with weapons, including poison gas, that he used during the Iran-Iraq war?
The US propped up Saddam's Iraq to be a counterbalance to Khomeini's Iran. But then the US went and removed the counterbalance and now there's no regional check on Iran's ambitions.
Actually no, he is what kept the country together. It is going to take a ruthless leader to govern that type of territory. We are just too blind to see it, and too prideful to admit it. Saddam was all in all good for Iraq. History is slowing showing it to be so.
Yes I often wonder what sort of person could keep two religious groups from the same religion from killing each other enmasse.
Iraq now has a massive civil war and we are in the middle of it. (Australians are there too)
These ignorant murderous zealots are prepared to bomb anyone at all without warning because their version of the same religion is a bit different to theirs. Suddenly Insane as I call him frightened the bejeesus out of both of them. It would take another cruel dictator to do the same in my view. I have no answer to this war, or any other that involves religious zealots.
That would be all of them! The world is being torn to shreds by religion.
I believe that if a group of people are in danger and it is possible they should be removed from harms way.
Doesn't anyone else want to consider these people and their current plight?
We all know about Iraq.
What about getting the christians out of harms way, or don't any of you care and would rather get your pet theories across instead?
If they want out? by all means!
If they refuse? I don't understand the question.
Is someone not letting them leave??
OK I give up.
I thought the facts were pretty well known on this.
No they cannot get out. Yes they are being killed now.
Yes the West should support the Christians as the West screwed the country in the first place by abolishing law and order. These people have a legitiamte claim to asylum. Unfortunately none of the Islamic nations surrounding them will give a toss. So this leaves America there as the only power who could get them out.
But there's a major problem. The Christians don't have any oil so I guess America will abandon them.
We should totally offer not only asylum but also safe passage to the US, if they want it.
Or saf passage to a place of their choosing.
I vote they live with Brenda and Flightkeeper. It's the least these good Christians could do.
Yeah!!!...and while we're at it...why not just open the border to mexico and receive all who want to enter...since America acts as a great sponge for all that are discontent and want to change their zip code, for whatever reason.
pylos, you are aware that america was founded by immigrants, right? after all, if my memory serves me correctly, the only TRUE CITIZENS of this country were the Native Americans. The settlers just tricked the Native Americans, as they had no concept of property because to them, nature was god. So to their logic, how can man own god? Well they sure found that out when the settler slowly took over their land; that's for sure. The point is, all our ancestors in America were in some way or another immigrants from this country. Therefore you shouldn't judge.
I for one don't mind if immigrants move here. It's only when the government offers them rights to vote, get insurance and take advantage of government programs is when i have a problem with it. as the way, i see it if your going to live here, then you need to become a citizen legally first BEFORE your allowed to partake in any government assistance or have any rights like voting. That's just my thoughts anyways.
stevennix wrote: "The point is, all our ancestors in America were in some way or another immigrants from this country. Therefore you shouldn't judge."
How in hell can our ancestors be immigrants from America?
You're response makes no sense as usual...have you no schooling whatsoever? you attempt to criticize my remarks with syntax and grammar that is worse than toddler gibbering.
if you read my statement carefully, instead of taking it out of contexts like you always do, then you would've understood EXACTLY what i said. the point i was making is that unless your a native american or have native american ancestory, then your ancestry is not of this country. As anyone that studies history can tell you that this country was founded by people who immigrated to America. Although from reading that statement you posted of mine, I can see I should've said "to" instead of "from", as that was obviously a typo. That I will apologize for, but please don't take what I say out of context if your going to criticize me, as it gets really annoying.
I noticed someone getting confused once and used “to” instead of “from” but he was four.
Dude I have taken nothing out of context…just copied and pasted your own words.
How is that out of context? Duh.
As for your annoyance...#%@#%*^#
So I take it you never made a typo before? Never accidentally typed the wrong word? Oh well, i guess that makes you mr. perfect then, huh? Look, Pylos, I don't know what your beef is with me, with all this ridiculous name calling. However, I was trying to have a intellectual discussion with you in forums. If you rather mud sling and act like a childish four year old, with petty insults, then that's your call. Just don't expect me to participate.
Mr. Nix…sir, I believe when you made the initial remarks to my post about my suggestion of opening the gates to Mexicans, because they’re not allowed into America, you missed my point entirely.
I wasn’t saying not to allow immigrants into the US, I was suggesting that maybe the US should not discriminate and allow a certain cult of religious believers in while the gates are closed to our neighbors in the south. And, of course you went on to assert your elementary history lesson on me (for what ever reason) which was a bit of an insult, since an infant should know the material you offered up in your critique.
And this business about typos and taking your stuff out of context, I invite you to offer evidence of such an act and you will receive a sincere apology. Perhaps “my disliking you” is just an imagination on your part.
You know, you could have just said that the first time, instead of comparing my intelligence to that of a toddler, and this would've saved us both a lot of trouble. Did you know that?
Again, this point could have been said instead of your insulting remark comparing me to that of a toddler, and questioning my educational background. You might do well to remember this, as my time, unlike yours, is valuable, and I do not appreciate arrogant juvenile delinquents like yourself to waste it with petty insults.
Uh huh, so I guess if anyone tells you something that you already know (but they didn't know you knew or remembered), then it automatically makes them an imbecile and you find it insulting? Is that the gist of what you just said? Then I guess we're even then. Of course, I didn't think I said anything insulting to you, and I reread all my posts on this forum to confirm so, and I fail to see anything derogatory or degrading to you, pylos. If you can point out exactly HOW my remark was insulting and/or condescending to you, then I'll gladly apologize.
I just did offer you evidence of this. Are you blind? Or do you only choose to read what you want to read?
Gee, you just insinuated that I had the intelligence of a toddler, and compared my educational background to that of a elementary school kid. I wonder how I could have gotten that idea? By the way, I'm being sarcastic with that remark.
Just do me a favor Pylos, if you ever say anything condescending or derogatory again to me, then I will report you. This isn't a joke, either, as I'm dead serious. You have a good day Pylos, and Happy Holidays.
Shoot they're always claiming they're persecuted. Maybe we should get the iraqi christians to offer them asylum.
Only problem with that, is it would announce publicly that this is a religious war, rather than a political one, something that I doubt America would wish to do.
However having said that it's obviously Muslims that are killing them.... but then they are killing their own Islamic citizens also.
Do you think we should evacuate all non combatants from war zones?
I live in a (peaceful) Muslim country, and if it went pearshaped I would seek to get my family out, but then I am British and the Embassy would assist in the evacuation.
Difficult question, even more difficult answers.
To put it simpler: Should we abandon humanity? It is absurd how we classify ourselves along religious, racial divides. When Hitler killed the jews, it was a christian killing the Jews. When Saddam was killing the kurds, it was a muslim-arab killing muslim-arabs. I think killing should be condemned as a matter of principle.
Saddam could have killed his people and it was only right that that was checked. However, it was not right for the U.S and its allies to enter a war that it could not end! The Iraqis that continue to die in the hands of the "liberators" are obscene.
What America has to do is to put the situation right by safe-guarding the lives and property of Iraqis. to pull out after exacerbating the situation is inhuman.
As to whether christians should leave. even the "evil" in Saddam did not allow that. In the history of middle-east it was only in Iraq where Christians lived peacefully along their Muslim counterparts. At the end of the day we are only humans.
We help everyone else out. Might as well help them too if it turns out they actually need it (those people are all killing each other all the time, so it's hard to know if this is anything concerted or just the general behavior over there). Probably just piss off a bunch of other religious people "proving that we only care about Christians" because we didn't evacuate all the Muslims some other time. The more we do over there, the more justification the radicals have for stirring up more hate and killing. Part of me thinks we ought to just leave those people alone. We've done enough damage. Just leave, and let them solve their own problems. But I know it's not that simple. Or maybe it is. Who knows. Whole thing is a massive trainwreck the size of many centuries.
I would guess that if we developed a better energy source than oil, left their countries and used our army to defend our borders (whichever country you live in) the Arabs would slip quietly into obscurity as oil prices dropped and we all learned to live with cleaner, greener resources.
But as long as oil company's run things, we and they have no chance.
And as long as we 'need' to drive SUV's and gas guzzlers, we have no choice.
It is obscene that in the 21st century we still allow invasive interference in nation states to secure our prosperity.
Yes, and to further complicated it, if we "pull out" the people who have been doing well by our presence will be victimized by the people who didn't do well by our being there, and so they will become the new victims, and, ultimately, our enemies for having "abandoned them" and so the planes will still explode etc. The whole thing is just horrendously jacked up.
Indeed. The only good solution would be to go back in time and not have invaded in the first place. Alas, that option is not available outside of the first Christopher Reeve Superman movie, or perhaps Star Trek IV.
Except the planes were exploding before we invaded (why we invaded IMO) ... except the planes were exploding in the 70's too... except the problem kind of began in 30's and 40s, except that it had already begun with the Crusades... except that problems were already brewing before that if the Bible has any stories that are true... etc.
Evacuation shouldn't be an option now. The U.S and its allies should be able to finish what it started. Germany was treated to the repatriation clause when it failed in the world war.
I've tried to avoid talk about oil but it seems inevitable. Is the U.S more interested in Iraq's oil than protecting their Human Rights? How will the U.S explain to the rest of the world that it had a humanitarian duty in Iraq when it pulls out at the time when Iraq is in tatters?
Just so - how can the US expect anyone to take it seriously when it bangs on about human rights in other countries, and yet has violated human rights to a horrendous degree in Iraq and Guantanemo.
Now that Iraq is in the grip of a civil war how can the US pull out with honour ? It is becoming very clear that the US actions have produced a far worse situation than that which came with Saddam's rule - enraging the Muslim population against christians generally leaves the US a duty to protect or remove the christians in Iraq to a safe place.
Islam should not denounce these acts but disown those taking part in it.Im no christian , Muslim, or Jew.What i am though is a man not willing to let these people march us into a biblical Armageddon.If religions can not govern themselves Then all of their torches need to be extinguished. Many of us out here are tired of their violence in the name of gods they know nothing about .a foot awaits to avert the inferno they seek to ignite.
Isn't Iraq a "democracy" now? No, it's a republic like the USA.
Is there "separation of church and state" there? NO!
Is there a 2nd amendment which allows citizens to arm themselves? NO! It's a doomed nation!
By constitution, Iraq is an islamic nation!
If he/she is a christian, it is by choice. That choice should be determined knowing, full well, the possiblity of being killed.
Who would be responsible for the evacuation? Us? C'mon, get real. They are now free to make their own decisions and determine their future. Iraq must be responsible for the actions of its citizens.
I have no sympathy for self imposed ignorance.
If one decides to believe in myth and superstition and one lets that decision guide ones life, well? One should be able to handle the consequences engendered.
People are like "kleenex." Systems use them and when finished another pops up.
It's been that way for thousands of yrs. it ain't gonna change.
The Iraqui constitution:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 01450.html
Qwark I think your point is very valid, and I agree with your ideals.
I also think that us so called "Christians," have done enough already. Why is Iraq on the brink of civil war? Well, lets just ask that "born again" Texas Christian, George W. all about that.
As for myself, this whole Iraqie episode cannot end soon enough for me. I was against it in the beginning, dead set against it now, and I cannot wait until us Americans get our "happy" little butts out of that country, and I hope we never go back. We had no business there, we have no business there, and we need to get our business out of there.
The USA will always be over in the middle east, always, forever and ever. Or at least until I'm dead, after that I don't care,,,,
okay Christians aren't the only ones being killed over there or anywhere for that matter. Christians have been persecuted ever since Christianity began. Besides the Jewish people have been persecuted since the dawn of time. I say if Christians are enraged that "their own" are being killed then they should listen to the teachings of Christ. Jesus taught us to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek but he also taught that the righteous must smite the wicked. He said that those that murder should be killed for their wicked ways - not for revenge or retribution. I don't think Christians should be held in regard above non-Christians. All men are created equal, whether man says they are or not. No one person nor a race of persons is better than another we all have the potential to do great things both good and evil. We just have to open our minds and hearts to the truth, no matter what that truth may be. Don't get me wrong I do not agree with war i believe that war is carnal, unforgiving, and just plain wrong. but if those that are evil wage war on those that are not the righteous must stand up for themselves otherwise evil will flourish, such has happened to our own planet.
P.S. props to qwark, shadesbreath, and intimate
good thread this and good question
sadam was a sadist
a small man propped up by the usa for its own agenda mostly oil and regional strategic presence
he was badly managed /lost the run of himself and had to be dealt with by the very people who propped him up
now it's a fill the void mess time
christians have been doing this for thousands of years/crusades/
i often say that america is the only country in the world that will kill you for your own good
this latest effort is an economic/idealogical crusade mixed with a good portion of self preservation built in
America is right to worry about the rise of radical Islam
This thing is like a bad weed in your garden/if you don't get the root it grows five heads.
The roots of this weed are poverty/ignorance and a lack of social structure
This is male logic not working on a global scale
now it's cut and run from Obama just like Vietnam
my suggestion to this question
confront the leaders of these religions
ask the pope what we should do
ask the ayatollah
its time to stay in iraq and afganistan/have dialogue with tehran and main stream islam
ask europe to help and stay there until the place makes sense
the sadest part of this is that america is broke
you have bitten off more than you can chew
the radicals sense this and now they are more dangerous than ever
if iraq's people are brave enough to stay then get in there and help them
i admire all the american troops who are well intentioned and brave caught up in this mess /this needs a consensus to sort out/its a middle east mess with religious dogma and male logic at its core
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