Do you agree with me that believing is a choice likewise not believing is a choice? Coming to argue about if God exists or not could be arguing if air exists or not. Many do not believe the Scriptures...But does it really matter? Even in the next 200 years to come, many in that time to come may still not believe our true records of today in the forums if made available to them...
one can't argue on air , virus , bacteria and such things which have already been proven...god remains unproven and so argument would continue till it is proven that god does exist or doesnot exist...it is age old question and since humans began to think , there has been this argument...believing is personal matter and so is non believing...argument happens only when what i believe is being project by me as only truth...if i keep my believe upto me i dont think any one would argue to me...even if express my opinion, it is my opinion and not the universal truth...it is as simple as that...
@pisean282311, you said it well and that should also clear the argument about the existence of God. The contest ought not to be about the existence because even in the next 2,000 years to come no man will be able to prove God(Spirit) exists without faith. You can test and prove other elements of the earth with the help of science but not so with God. Not even the ugly antics of religion.
Each one of us has a choice to believe or not to believe in God. I believe because I believe what the Bible tells me because it is the inherant word of God. It was given by God and written by men of God who had a relationship to him. In Genesis chapters 1 and 2 is the main reason that I believe in God. There was nothing before God spoke it into being. No other person on this earth can take nothing and make something out of it. God had nothing to work with when he created the earth or man and woman. I cannot see God with the naked eye, but I believe in faith that God is truly alive in my heart. You can't look around you and not know that there is a God.
You also have a choice to believe in Allah, or Thor or Zeus or any number of other gods.
The Genesis story is alive and well in a number of other religions, just the names, dates and places have all changed. Oh yes, the form of creationism can be different, too.
Yes, it's easy. See, look around you, notice there are no gods in the room? Allah, Thor and Zeus are not there, either.
Dian'swords4u, God is all-powerful. God spoke things into existence and there it was. I am unable to convince myself that God didn't create the beautiful flowers and life on this earth. It didn't just happen on it's own.
Everytime we see a flower blossom, or a little chick hatch from an egg, everytime a woman receives sperm from a man and 9 months later a baby emerges from her womb,every animal,every insect every plant has life within it. Some being more powerful than you or me formed it and caused it to grow and become alive.
Every snowflake that drops from the sky has it's own unique shape. How was it formed to that shape. There are so many exhibits proving God exists, but not one thing to prove otherwise, therefore since he exists why not believe in him and worship him as a creator of life deserves.
Agreed. I choose to worship the loving, true creator of life.
I am so happy we agree to worship a loving creator, Almighty God.
"I am unable to convince myself that God didn't create the beautiful flowers and life on this earth. It didn't just happen on it's own."
"Agreed. I choose to worship the loving, true creator of life."
If you're unable, as you yourself said, then it is not a choice to believe. The only choice, if you happen to inevitably believe, is whether to worship or not, and how to worship. But I'm betting that's not much of a choice either, since in most cases it is defined by your enviroment.
"Everytime we see a flower blossom, or a little chick hatch from an egg, everytime a woman receives sperm from a man and 9 months later a baby emerges from her womb,every animal,every insect every plant has life within it. Some being more powerful than you or me formed it and caused it to grow and become alive.
Every snowflake that drops from the sky has it's own unique shape. How was it formed to that shape. There are so many exhibits proving God exists, but not one thing to prove otherwise, therefore since he exists why not believe in him and worship him as a creator of life deserves."
The greatest argument in favor of god is the ignorance of how some things came to be. Ignorance used as an argument. How low is that? You want to know how snowflakes are formed? Google it or ask someone who knows about the subject. Why can't you worship Nature as it is, instead of worshipping it through something else.
I worship nature as it is. I attribute its creation to God and worship and admire His ability to create.
isn't nature beautiful, how animals have to shred each other for food, mosquitos spread disease and lice infest children's hair.
Beautiful creatures like the star-nosed mole & leaf-nosed bat (look those up and tell me if you think they are truly beautiful)
hahaha. You need to look at things in a less pessimistic way. There was lice in egypt too, caused of god but did not bother Gods people. Indeed the black tunnel of scoptic vision you look through is truly tainting what might be an otherwise lovely picture. But congrats on your good management skills.
No, it's not ignorance at all. I am fully aware of how snowflakes are formed. God is the source. I realize the beauty of nature didn't simply occur on it's own. I will continue to praise and worship God who created nature and all things. This is my answer to you. I am not here to pick fights. Have a nice day.
Believing is a choice.
Anyone who chooses to lie to themselves, can do so, without other people's interference. However, when those same people open their mouth about their belief, then they perpetuate the lie that they have been telling themselves, onto others, either to believe or accept, as some sort of truth.
So, any person who believes, chooses to lie. Hence, they can never be honest with others.
and any person who chooses not to believe is perpetuating their lie onto others hence they can never be honest with others.
Its interesting that you took the time to say this but what is the validity?
Brotheryochanan: Are you daring to call me a "Liar" I sincerely hope not. That sir would be quite rude and defaming of my character. You know me sir. You know I am a Christian. You know that, what I speak, when I speak, is truthful. Sir I do not lie, nor do I encourage lying.
Sir if you are attacking my belief in God, or my belief and acceptance that The Holy Bible is of God, written by man as God's guide to salvation, attack if you will, and if you are wrong God will correct you.
In one of my hubs I go into detail about the difference between belief and faith. Belief is not faith and faith is not belief but faith is impossible without first having a belief. A belief is arrived upon when one has gathered knowledge concerning a subject matter and then decided whether it is credible or not. We can decide that presented information is credible for ourselves whether it is truth or lie. The decision lies with us.
Faith is not a noun, it is a verb. Faith is our actions that prove our belief. Personally I choose to believe in God, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit because I have found the information to be credible. My faith in God is displayed by how I profess my faith that I believe everything He says is true. He says He has forgiven me of all my unrighteous living, I believe it and live life with no guilt or fear. He says, I believe, I respond (faith).
It is exactly the same with people who believe in evolution, the big bang, small bang or any other theory. All intelegent people, christians and non-believers should always be open to consider what the other has to say without getting into an arguement about who is wrong or right. Judging someone's belief to be wrong and yours to be right is a prideful thing, considering yourself to be of a higher calibre than other. God always gives all people the freewill to choose whether or not what He says is true, for anyone to put pressure on others by slamming their beliefs is to exalt oneself to the position of a deity worthy of worship.
I serve God and worship Him willingly. I can compare my decision of being a Christian to getting married. I got to know my wife first over a period of time before I asked her to be in my life till the day I day. I got to know Jesus Christ before I asked Him to be in my life forever.
Blessed Hill: Well written! I don't know why some people choose to attack others if it is not to force their beliefs onto others. You make total sense with all you say here. I chose and I choose to be a Christian to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ that makes me a disciple of Jesus striving to live as he taught. I chose and I choose to believe and accept that God is God and that Jesus is the Son of God. I chose this for me, it was not forced upon me and I was not brainwashed into believing it.
Choosing or not choosing is free will. Believing in God or not believing in God is choosing and every human is free to choose.
I personally choose to believe that God is God and exists. I choose to accept and believe that The Bible is God's Holy Words inspired by God through God's Holy Spirit recorded by human hands. I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God who became flesh, was crucified to death and was resurrected by God His Father and that because I believe in this my sins are cleansed and I will see God in heaven when my human body dies.
If as a Christian I am wrong and everything about God is a lie, then I die and go into the ground and that's the end of it, but if I am right, my body dies, but my spirit goes on into eternity in peace and happiness.
On the other hand though an Atheist one dead has nothing for they believe in nothing. They become food for the worms.
On the other hand - if you are wrong and spent your entire life being a condescending hypocrite and then it turns out Allah is not impressed with your attitude to the one True God - you are kinda screwed every which way - you wasted your life on earth and then bet on the wrong Invisible Super Being.
1.5 billion Muslims can't be wrong - can they?
I do not believe that God goes back on His word to man. There is no need to impress God. If you follow the teachings of Christianity as taught by Jesus Christ, confess your sins and repent, you have nothing to fear for eternal life is promised and is yours. God does not lie and Jesus as son of God does not lie either.
1.5 billion Muslims say other wise. Surely that many peopel cannot be wrong? Can they?
Yes they can.
What can make one think that the fact that a majority of people have a particular belief is enough to state it's true ?
Why can they not be wrong. Where is it written that you are only right if you have a lot of people following. Is it not that all change begins with one person wishing to change something?
Any religion that tells its people to strap a bomb onto themselves and go out to murder people because they do not believe as you believe cannot be of God.
Any religion that says that if a wife goes outside the home and fails to cover her head, that the woman has shamed her husband and her religion and must die. This is not of God.
I see. Now you know what your religion sounds like to atheists.
Christianity may not seem right to Atheists but if you haven't walked a mile in my shoes judge not.
But you feel comfortable judging the Muslims?
And please stop telling me what to do - that is what causes all the fighting. Criticizing one religion and telling me not to judge yours.
Do as I say, not as I do.
I did not see anywhere, where Dave is telling you what to do, He is giving His opinion just like every one else here is doing
exorter: Thank you for your defence. Our brother seems to think that if I try to help an Atheist understand me, or if I speak my point of view, provided by media coverage knowledge, about Islamic Muslims and how they are perceived, I am wrong, and only He is right. He has a hard time accepting the truth and defending a lie.
The thing about lies is that one can poke holes in them so easily.
I've got over 50 years of wear on my "believer's" shoes. I've seen, read it, lived it and done it. After all that, my opinions are based on my experience, and my experience says the jury is out.
Now, if you walked in my shoes for 50 years, you might understand what I'm really talking about, but it appears to me that you've made up your mind, and are unwilling to walk in anyone else's shoes but your own.
Just so you know.
Only 50 years eh! I have 62 soon to be 63 by the end of this month. I accept Christianity as my choice of "Faith" and belief. I choose to believe that God exists, as does heaven and hell. I choose to believe that I am a spirit being living in a human body. I choose to believe that oneday, my body will die, but my spirit will return to my creator, God. I choose to believe that my creator set me on a path of life, but it is up to me as to whether I choose to remain on it and follow His suggestions on how to proceed or detour off that path and seek another. The choice has always been mine and always will be. I choose because I AM.
I do not sit in judgement of the Muslims or any other people or faith. I read what is reported in the news media, as it is reported. 911 was not some misprint it happened and was carried out by Muslims. There isn't a week goes by without a report of some Muslim attaching a bomb to themselves to attack innocent people in the name of Islam or blowing up something killing others in the name of Islam. I believe what is, is and if you are an Islamic Muslim then your belief and faith may or not be similar to those, blowing up others for nothing. I do not judge, neither do I understand such religious beliefs and I would never ever defend such actions.
I do not try to tell you what to do or think, but I have an obligation to myself, to society, in the name of Peace to try and bring peace through change.
Good grief! It is right there in black and white. All I said was "now you know what your religion sounds like to atheists" when you ranted about how wrong the Muslim faith is.
I thought bearing false witness was a sin?
1.5 billion Muslims can't be wrong - can they?
Dave, awesome to know a brother who has walked so long with the Lord. Would love to spend time with you and just bask in His goodness and grace as we break bread about the awesome God we love and serve. I love it when we can just sit aroound a cup of coffe with His Word and He just pours out His anointing to bless those who trust Him. If I don't meet you hear on earth I will definately look you up in heaven. Be blessed!
The bible says muslims are wrong.
God sacrificed a son... they deny that.
Gabriel preached to mohammed.. even you cant agree with that.
what need for another dispensation after sacrificing a son is there.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him (mohammed) be accursed. (emphasis mine)
Gods foresightful knowledge prepared us for such doctrines before muslim came into being
Brotheryochanan, you and I agree here Jesus was sacrificed for the remission of sin.
Galatians: 1:8, states; KJV. "But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other Gospel unto you, than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Paul warns that others may come, preaching a new or different Gospel other than the Gospel teaching of Jesus and those doing so should be accursed.
human sacrifice - that was around before christianity, just like so many other things in the bible
Catholics are wrong. Jehovah witness are wrong. 7day adventists are wrong.
buddah was not saved. Hari krishna, there is a long list of wrongs.
The common UNwrong to these wrongs is believing in Jesus as the son of God, atonement for sin and repentence. (saved)
There is no substance to statemens like this. Anyone who is so certain of being right is not to be trusted. Can't you see how pointless it is to give "the bible says so" as an argument when the people you're talking to do not take the bible as a serious source for knowledge? It's like a kid trying to justify his bad behaviour to an adult using Santa or the tooth fairy as an excuse. It just won't work, it is pointless.
yeah & look at how many of god-botherers are like this
There is always a wrong and a right in everything. It is foolishness to think otherwise. The bible tells plainly what is right and what is wrong. When a transgression against simple bible principle occurs, it is wrong. This is why God gave us the book, so we can look and learn and know how to distinguish right from wrong. People who want wrong will always get or do wrong those who want right will be able to preach against wrong.
Muslims are wrong no matter their number. God does not could not condone strapping on a bomb to kill oneself as well as innocent people, but that is up to God to judge. I will neither condone it nor advocate it,for God commands; "Thou shalt not kill." Catholic, Jehovah Witness, 7th.day adventist, are all various sects of Christianity, Buddist etc. adopt Christian beliefs but give no mention of Christ. And hey you conveniently left out the Jewish Community. What about them?
I can agree that the common "UnWrong" is Christianity and believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the atoner for sin with repentance, but only God Himself can ascertain whether any other religious sect regardless of its name is worthy of heaven and salvation. No man created religious group has that right, Only God.
What kind of a decision is that? I believe because 1.5 billion other people do? Are you saying you believe something simply because 1.5 billion other people have that line of thinking? Come on. All this time I thought you were an independent thinker that did his research and made his decisions based on those findings.
Good grief no - I was making fun of the fact that so many self-professed Christians point at how many followers there are as being a reason to believe. It is the McChristianity argument I like to point this number out to evangelical Christians to watch them shoot it down.
You surely did not think I believe such garbage - did you?
Dave, Well meaningful and excellent response!
Yes man. Indeed.
We have reivented thermodynamics here.
We have created a kind of perpetual movement in HP.
That was a fine topic title.
I believe I'm going to have dinner now.
What does it matter? I don't understand how anyone can look at the world today and think it doesn't matter.
God gave us all a measure of faith and free will to use it, so choosing to believe or not is up to the individual.
I could give you a million reason why you should believe in God but if your will is determine not to hear them then you will always be a unbeliever. Everyone didn't believe Jesus, when He hung on the cross the man on his right didn't believe but the one on the left did believe and he got his reward, his soul was saved and his soul is with the Lord.
Hi Andrew I have never felt a need to debate or argue with what someone does or does not believe. I either have no interest in others beliefs, or don't care, possibly a means of just accepting if you think the sky is green I am cool with that. I feel it is not my place to judge you, even if warranted in some form of retaliation [like someone challenge me] Or in a nutshell with religion and politics I have no education and no interest, to the point of occasional confusion with faith.
But just posting to say let's argue but it has to focus on me [kidding] I hear you buddy
back in; Hi awesome Woman of Courage
It is a choice, yes;but one should exercise this choice with responsibility. Allah- the Creator God bestowed life on human beings with a purpose; if one ignores it purposely; one should know that one cannot escape its accountability:
[67:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[67:2] Blessed is He in Whose hand is the kingdom, and He has power over all things;
[67:3] Who has created death and life that He might try you — which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Most Forgiving.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … .php?ch=67
Not believing can be a choice however for those that never believed to begin with it's not a choice it's simply a lack of belief. For most people who believe who are adults it is a choice but many children are indoctrinated to believe in God at an age when they can't really resist it. They're told by parents or other authority figures to believe before they can really think critically and thus the choice is not fully theirs.
The same is true for the Atheists; they tell their children that there is no God; they indoctrinate their children likewise.
That's ABSURD! Most atheist were indoctrinated by brainwashed parents, just like you were. We just eventually get the courage to see that these beliefs are nonsensical.
Please don't be angree.
Don't you tell anything to your children? Do you leave them alone and don't let them mix with other person? Naturally the children have to be educated and cultured. The Theists culture their children so do the Atheists; there is no difference, in my opinion.
I'm not angry. It's just that your opinion is totally inaccurate. You have absolutely drawn an erroneous conclusion. In fact, to prove it, Baileybear, Ernesthub, and myself, along with some other atheists on here, were raised, and became devout believers, in this nonsense.
My parents were devout Christians. In fact, my father was a minister.
Your conclusions are dead wrong.
I hope your mind is open enough to actually learn from this.
The question is; what you tell your children? Naturyally you don't let your children without guiding them. Do you?
Yes, but I don't have the benefit of the backing of the state and society. And my child's other parent is a Catholic, so she has equal time. Most of the indoctrination comes from public authority.
Please don't isolate your children; tell them what is best in your opinion as parents for them; when they will mature they themselves will decide what is right and what is wrong. That is best one can do.
If most of the indoctrination comes from the public; then try to change it if you can in a legitimate manner; no harm.
Perhaps, some day you might notice that your opinion does not agree with reality.
There is such a vast difference between the reality of the unsaved and the saved. In fact God says the only reality is in him.
The atheist will look into the distance and see nothing but the christian will see an afterlife of wonder and amazement that goes on forever filled with tons of stuff.
enjoy your reality
it sounds miserable to me
Yes, your god says that, this god and that god and the one over there, too, say that. Yay for all the gods that state emphatically they are each and individually the only reality!
The atheist will recognize all those gods, not just yours. The believer will chose to ignore all those other gods and the world outside of their own personal belief system. It's what is usually referred to as delusion and obsession.
What's really funny about that is the fact we all share the same reality, but there are some who refuse to see it all as their minds are clouded with only seeing a small fraction of it bathed in their own personal delusions.
Andrew great post, pleasure to meet you'
Yes, very personal
Yes, belief is a choice. It's God's choice. You will believe the whole truth or maybe part of it when God is ready for you to believe it.
Once you are firmly rooted at either side of this discussion it is very hard to take the other viewpoint. It can be done but it takes more than just choice.
though it appears that believing is a choice, actually it is not.
Only those from above are given the capacity to believe.
The rest will remain in unbelief despite what soever convincing evidence that may be offerred.
Every thing done with out the knowledge of truth is sin and is death.
I don't think it's a conscious choice. I can't force myself to believe in God without any evidence. I used to believe because I was told to believe by people I trusted. I didn't make a cognitive 'choice' to believe. Then real life didn't match up with all the fairy-tales I'd been told.
Baileybear, One has to seek God for themselves. Their eyes will be open to the light of truth. This is my personal experience. God is real in the lives of those who seek him first. It's a spiritual connection. If a person seek God, he will reveal himself to them. We can't see God physically. He is a spirit.
Woman of Courage, you are so funny. You talk to Baileybear as if she knows nothing about faith, totally ignoring the fact that she was once just like you. I'm sure that she once said the same things you are saying now, so could you please say something that's appropriate to say to an ex-born again Christian. The same with me. I'm an ex born again holy roller. Please don't talk to me as if I know nothing about God, because I'm sure I know more than you do. To be honest I'm sure Baileybear finds it insulting, and so do I.
getitrite, Excuse me. I never ignored the fact that she was once a christian. Bailey's response doesn't state she ever seeked God for herself. By reading some of your insulting attacks about who God is, I doubt you know much about God's love. What is your real reason for turning your back on God?
I think Baileybear has stated many times that she was a strong believer in the Pentacostal faith, and that she was very active in the church.
And to answer your other questions. I thought I knew of God's love, yes I did.
My reason for turning my back on God? That's funny.
It was kinda gradual. As time passed, the concept just made less and less sense, until in the end there was not enough fear to keep me hanging on. I really don't expect you to understand, because I can tell you are all in.
Your response has not explained anything. I have not mentioned pentecostal faith in my post above. I mentioned seeking God in order for him to reveal truth. You never stated how the concept just made less and less sense. Interesting, I hope the people didn't call you to fall away from the faith you once had in God.
After debating with you over the last few months, I really don't think you could understand why I walked away from religion, and why it makes so much sense that I did.
You would swear that I was insane, and even worse, that I was being controlled by Satan. I would seem delusional to you, and in need of counseling from a pastor.
Being so afraid of this God, you cannot fathom how a devout Christian, like myself, could boldly accept the premise that it was all a lie. You would think I had gone mad, because you just can't see beyond the indoctrination.
I cannot get you to understand anything, unless I accept the delusion again, and parrot, Goddunit!
But I do see that you need this. You really do. By all means, fullfil your needs.
people think I have been deceived by the devil because I walked away from it all - they are too deluded to see the lie they live in their little bubble
getrite, Are you saying that you were afraid of God when you were a christian? If you can see that I need God, why do you see a need to insult others and I who choose to believe that God exist with such strong arrogance?
Dear Woman of Courage,
No I do not fear God, you do. I think you misunderstood my sentence.
Most of the times, I say things in a way to get others to understand EXACTLY the meaning of the statement I'm trying to make, so when I use words like "nonsensical" "absurd" "insane" it is relevant.
If you are insulted, then you are insulted by reality. These beliefs you have been indoctrinated to believe have been proven to be nonsensical, absurd, insane, illogical, etc.
Just because you and I were brainwashed to believe them doesn't mean these beleifs are not illogical. You are only hurt because you feel it is a personal attack on you, when it is actually an attack on nonsense.
BTW, these beliefs have also been proven to be Bronze Age Myths. You have just been too indoctrinated to accept the truth, because your fear of superstition is stronger than your quest for honesty and knowledge.
getitrite, I am not afraid of God. I don't know where you get that from. Sorry to disappoint you, Your insults never hurt me in the slightest bit. Each time you insult with garbage-filled words, I simply ignore it. I don't recieve ridiculous remarks such as your response above. Take care!
This sounds like the logic of someone that's full of fear and abject confusion.
Please stop asking me questions, just to respond with childish, dishonest, irrelevant nonsense. OK?
Don't be mad at getitrite. They told me he's upset because he spent his entire childhood sitting up at night pondering wether out not there really is a dog. Seems he didn't realize he was dyslexic until his later years. It took a toll Iguess.
getitrite: I think we must be worshipping a different God. My God is a God of Love who only wishes thar we love Him. He is not to be feared. If you truly knew God as you say you did, you would know this. Just remember one thing. You may choose to turn your back on God and forsake Him, but God will never do this to you. He continues to love you.
But - he is gonna burn me in hell for all eternity - right?
I cannot nor will I presume to speak for how God will deal with you when you die. That is between you and your creator God.
So - god does not reward believers and burn non believers? That is good to know. That I get the same after death as you do.
So - why bother believing?
You are chosing to put your own spin on everything twisting things to suit your thoughts your purpose. I refuse to comment for God on how God will deal with any particular person or set of circumstances. That is between God and the person involved. When you die and you will some day, God will deal with you how ever is fitting and that sir is between Him and You.
Excellent. Thank you for admitting you have absolutely no idea what this god thing will do. I am doing no such thing as you are judging me of doing.
I am glad you admit you do not know what god does or will do though. I see this as a step forwards.
So - you retract your earlier statements?
Believers do not go to heaven and unbelievers do not go to hell. This is good. Why believe then? No reason I can see - seeing as you do not know how god deals with the two.
Mark I retract nothing I have said. I simply refuse to deal with someone so opinionated as you. You take the words of others and twist them like the hypocrites in Jesus lifetime. I never ever stated that un believers go to hell, and why would this upset a man who declares himself as an atheist, who neither believes in God or heaven and hell? Hypocrite!
Great. So - there is no difference between believers and non believers - they get the same. That is good to know. Believers get a reward of paradise and eternal bliss - as do atheists.
Awesome. I see no reason to start believing in that case. Well done. Is this the message you were instructed to share?
Mark on the day you die, you will discover whether you or I were right. If I'm right you will face God, and you had better have a great excuse for not believing in Him. You will be offered the opportunity to change your mind and believe or not, choose not, and your final destination could probably be the Lake of Fire written about in the Bible. If you are right, you will go into a hole in the ground or be cremated and in time become nothing but dust.
And, what excuses do you have for when you meet Allah, and Zeus, and Thor and a host of other gods who will be waiting in line to judge you just like you are threatening others to be judged by your god?
There is but one God. Those you name are but myths, not real and my God will not sit in judgement of me only the nonbelievers.
I make no excuse for the one true God, My God will not be judging me and he is the only God there is.
In other words, Dave, you are saying exactly the same thing every other believer says about their god and your god. To them, your god is a myth and their god is the one true god. They believe that just as much as you believe in your god. No difference.
No one is saying you're wrong Dave, but the fact that so many other people are believing the same thing but in a different god, the odds of you being right are very slim.
Of course, all I asked is what excuse you would have when you stand in front of all those gods telling them they are myths? Are you not prepared for that possible event? Have you not thought of what you would say if it did happen?
I have a perfect reason for not believing and - of course - if I am dead and standing in front of the guy - as long as he has a reasonable explanation for his fan club and can promise me I will not be spending eternity listening to them crow about how "righteous," they were - I will probably start groveling right there and then. If eternity gets spent listening to you guys - I will choose the lake of fire in a heartbeat.
So - you do indeed think he will burn me for not believing - but it is nice to know you think it doesn't matter I did not believe as long as I have a good "excuse" ready.
Not sure that is actually biblical though - you make this stuff up as you go along?
With that brand of logic, I could spend my whole life, slavishly, worshipping this crazy God, going to church five times a week, and reading the bible 10 hours a day, and when I die, He could still decide to send me to hell.
On the other hand YOU could go through your whole life and deny that God even exists, and when you die, God could decide to let you go to heaven! !!!!!!
What a scam!
Dave, could you back that up with some objective evidence?
Preferably some evidence based in reality.
Please understand, if you don't, then it appears that the only thing you really have is an indoctrination.
When you say all these wonderful things about your God, then you can't even prove that He exist, how do you suppose you have one once of integrity?
Yet you keep saying these things as if you have proof. If someone did that to you, you would, by using critical thinking, become aware that you were being conned. Yet you continue this con game on others, although you are unconscious of your own actions. This is madness.
If you really wish proof of God's love how willing are you to go to see it and know? Yes I can offer proof of God's love for you and for all mankind, but knowing how you apparently see things I am not certain if you would accept it or believe it. My proof is found in the Bible, a historic book of knowledge that you seem to want to deny as being factual and true.
That would mean I would have to become delusional, which I'm not willing to do.
You can't prove anything. Do you realize you are still trying to con me? You don't see it do you?
So would that be literally or metaphorically factual and true?
It is your decision and your opinion but I know you will never see the light.
You don't have to get angry, just because I'm too clever to be conned. Just go con someone else. I hear there is a sucker born every minute, and God knows, it takes a sucker to fall for this ludicrous scam.
getitrite: Sir you may think you are clever, you may think yourself even more clever than me, and who knows you may be right. But God is more clever than you can ever be. You say: "God knows it takes a sucker to fall for this ludicrous scam." Your words not mine so I now wonder who the sucker is, for if you do not believe in God, then why say "God knows," You sir are a hypocrite spreading falseness. If you do not believe in God then why use his name to make a point.
I knew would would say that, Dave. As I wrote those words, I knew you would say that. Why? Because you have no real argument, and no proof of the foolish, and false claims you are making, so any smokescreen, diversion, or insignificant detail will be employed.
And what if I do believe in GOD? That still doesn't mean I would believe in the same stupid god you believe in.
Your version of God is silly, because you make all these claims, and assert all these threats, but in the end you can't even prove the existence of this creature. Why is that, Dave? Why is that?
You keep saying you have proof, but all you keep offering is more nonsense, and psychotic delusion...by confusing proof with self-deception. This is a frightening mental state.
Prove you god exists...and prove that it is not through the means of self-deception.
I neither have to defend myself nor my God. God is more than capable of defending Himself when He sees fit to do so.
I offered you proof of my God but you refused it. Your choice not mine. You sir are still a hypocrite as you choose to refer to a God you claim does not exist and a God you do not believe in. You call my God silly,and a psycotic delusion. I will let God defend Himself on this matter.
I'm still sitting here waiting on your God to defend himself, Dave. Where is he, Dave? Where is he? Where-Is-He?
Do you see the sickness? You are still trying to con me. You have made claim after claim, and you have not backed up even one--not one yet.
My God does not jump through hoops just because you demand an answer. Besides Atheist, you do not believe in God, so why would you believe Him even if he appeared right now and answered you. Hypocrite you would still be.
But you and I know that He is not going to appear, don't we Dave? Don't we? He's not going to appear, and He is not going to answer any questions now is He, Dave?
Your assertions have now become completely worthless, and you have lost every once of credibility.
You do have to defend your claims when you make them, Dave, or else you shouldn't make them. If you make outlandish claims, then refuse to defend or prove the veracity of them, then it makes you look ridiculous, and you lose all credibility. And by just making that statement, you have lost all credibility.
And where is your proof that God is capable of defending himself? or is that another claim that you don't need to defend?
You offered me delusion, and an opportunity to deceive myself. If you had offered REAL proof, I'm intelligent enough to know it. And I would have whole-heartedly accepted it. Dishonesty is not proof, and I will never accept your dishonesty as proof of your deluded assertions.
Irrelevant and absurd. Where is this God then. Where is he?
I spent years 'seeking God'. God did not reveal himself to me, did not heal me, did not bless me. Meanwhile, horrible people took advantage of me. Where was god? Having an eternal nap?
We don't know that bailey bear was once like us. We are still in having found a secure foundation for our faith and evidence of God. How do we know bailey just didn't give up because she is impatient, selfish, wanted something else.... needed to party, got drunk then pregnant and married some irreligious bastard and blamed god.
Just because she and others spout this studious and lengthy pursuit of God and failed is not a requisite for all of us for whom Christianity is actually working and god is actually pleased with us.
Where was god? right behind all of you! You just didn't obey and now your wilderness journey (put upon you by God himself for your disobedience) is eating you up. You think it a curse but he is drawing you back to him and will never let you go.
Where was god?... spoken like someone who doesn't even know how to find god. That's all the proof i need to know that all that studiousness is just another atheist lie or at the very least a self deception. No one can ever tell me God didn't answer prayer or where was god and tell me they were in the middle of gods will.. LOL
Agree with you Andrew. If you have a belief in something, there is no contest. Same if you don't believe in something. If you're arguing, it only means you're trying to have someone prove something to you because you don't know what to think.
I do agree that to believe in something or some one is a choice, but as far as God is concerned,faith in God isn't & can never be a choice.Jesus said that no person can come to him if he/she isn't attracted by God. In order words,no person can believe in God through Jesus if not attracted by God himself.
anyone who has ever known the love of God, could never doubt Him,
I can understand how someone who has never known that Love, could try to do satans work and try to create doubt in Christians
they are always saying prove it
the only way to prove there is a God is to seek Him with you heart
There are many of us that want desperately to believe in a higher being...Looking at the symmetrical flow of nature, the totally honest expression of a child's laughter, the awesome heavens above...How can one not contemplate that there is some guiding force, some unfathomable intelligence, that pulls it all together, some grand plan for all creatures...
I don't look to an orthodoxy to explain these wonders to me...I look into my heart and ask myself why am I able to wonder at all..?
It's very simple. Some choose to believe in God, some choose to be independent of God, inexcusably believing that He does not Exist. For those who choose to believe, pray for the truth, understanding, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Only God will give you the truth. If you choose to be independent of God, and believe that you do not need the creator of the soul, who breathed the breath of life through your nostrils......Just hold your breath, It won't take long, you'll get the point. Independence is wonderful, for the living.
Believing Is A Choice
Yes; but one should use it with responsibility and judiciously.
Lies bring us closer to the devil. But, being completely honest isn't in our nature. Relationships with others are not based on honesty, love, and happiness. The most important factor is respect. If you respect someone enough then you shouldn't have dishonest intentions.
You can't have respect if you don't base a relationship on honesty. Honesty comes before respect, not the other way round.
the condition of being esteemed or honored: to be held in respect.
This is the respect she is talking about.. not the respect you give a guy who pays your 10 bucks he owes ya.
First people have to have a respect for God or they will not be able to have a relationship with him. If we have respect for another we will not lie.
she is not wrong.
Then stop being dishonest, and disrespecting our intelligence with references to nonexistent entities(devil).
devil is a metaphor, the only dishonesty intended is your interpretation of devil.
And please don't be so hard on first timers. I know you need fresh prey to intimidate, but we must be of goodwill here in hubpages.. you are far too aggressive i think
i'm still waiting for Misha or Mark to mentor me...
I 'believe' they will.. but they are testing my faith
As soon as the $87 you owe me arrives - I am all over it.
i didn't take economics in school, but I never realized the power of inflation!
Just the other month you owed me $4, and now because of the poor economy I owe you THAT much???
Yes - inflation is the most powerful force of nature known to man. Why - in this short gap it has gone up to $100, but I will take $99 for swift payment.
please send me your complete bank account information, PIN number, copies of all Identification papers, etc.. and I will process the payment
Nah - you don't need any of that nonsense - I trust you.
Just send the $127 to firstname.lastname@example.org through paypal.
i just tried but got a message back saying 'Your transaction can not be completed. The requested account is full as PayPal will not maintain funds in excess of one million dollars"
Agreeing to disagree is a choice, also, though there are few who make that choice. I have noted that ego often rules how forceful a person is in making sure others know his/her beliefs. Ego goes rampant when self security is low. A lot of people mistake their big egos as the "devil" instead of take responsibility for their own bad behavior, and conversely, their big egos are what drives them to do such heinous things in the name of their twisted definition of who "god" is, and what he wants. Has nothing to do with god. Has everything to do with ego.
But I digress.
As I stated, agreeing to disagree is also a choice.
Hey, here's an idea - why don't we all just believe what we want to believe and allow others to do the same? Discuss if you wish, but do so with civility and without judging. Go in peace, my fellow hubbers!
Daniel, we were writing a similar message at the same time! lol
Yes, faith is an option, but it has its benefits. We were given free will because God knew we are capable of using it. It has been used to both harm and heal, and religion has also had the power to harm and heal.
I was raised Catholic, but now belong to a Unitarian Church. Being a member of a spiritual community is vital to me. Unitarianism honors all religious traditions, and promotes peace and justice. I think that is closer to what a Divine creator will for us than some of the corruption that has existed for thousands of years within individual religious, including Catholicism.
I think if we come together to support one another, in the spirit of good will and generosity for our fellow humans, that is what my Creator wants the world to be. Yes, I do believe there is a basic spirit that connects most religions, and fellowship with others who honor that spirit in one another have the power to be very constructive, both locally and to the larger society in which they exist.
One thing that is clearly evident is if you believe or not doesn't make it a fact! The truth lies in what we find out in the end! Our beliefs are nothing in regards to truth! We will all find out the truth when the last breath departs from our bodies! The reality of it all is what matters! We will all find out if God exists and if heaven or hell exists in death! I believe he does exist!
I don't think we will find out anything, because we will be dead.
What if you are wrong? What if we are spirit beings living for a time in a human body? The body dies but the spirit is immortal and lives on. If this is true?
Believe in God you live on in happiness.
Believe not you live on in suffering in the pit of fire.
I can smell your fear from here. Still - I agree - this is indeed a rather disgusting god.
Mark: I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to. I have absolutely no fear not of God, not of dying and not of there being any possibility of being wrong. I am spirit. My body will, must die when it is no longer required for me to be here on earth. I will return to my spirit being.
Mark: By the way God can never be "disgusting" your words.
And what if you are wrong about Allah, and you die and find out that Allah is, indeed, God?
Believe in Allah, get your numerous virgins.
Believe not, you will live on in suffering in the pit of fire.
Don't take that chance.
According to your logic, you should now make sure that you believe in Allah, and every conceivable God, including the Flying Spaghetti Monster, to make sure you avoid the pit of fire, or whatever unjust punishment they offer.
If my human body is dead and I am now living as a spirit, what would I have need of a virgin or virgins for? You may name your Islamic God Allah, but my God told me His name and it is not Allah.
So you have decided to cleverly avoid the premise?
It appears that your delusion has collapsed, and now the smoke screens and strawmen will be presented. Sad.
You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
Do you see how your beliefs just dissolve right in front of your face? Where is your proof that Allah is not God, except for your delusion that some imaginary entity told you so?
That's not an answer at all.
I have never denied The God with no name, or Allah, or Jehovah, or Yaweh, or I AM, or The Lord God. God is known by many different names to many different peoples of the world.
I believe in Almighty God, regardless of any name. God is God.
The difference between Almighty God the God I serve and believe in, and Allah, the God you serve and believe in that I can see is this.
My God would never condone, or approve murder, nor would He ask or expect of me to strap on a bomb, and use it to destroy myself as well as to take the lives of others, because they did not think or believe as I do, but according to your Islamic beliefs your God demands it. Thou shalt not kill.
To bad you only choose to try and attack me on a name, the name of God.
You choose probably out of false teaching to totally ignore my question.
If I am dead, which would make me then a spirit, what need would I have of a virgin or virgins which yo referred to. As a spirit they would be useless to me.
You talk about avoiding the issues, how about you?
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Whatever your definition of a spirit is, I guess it is not of a physical nature.
But what do you actually know about anything other than this physical realm?
You don't know what your needs will be once you are in this "spiritual" realm, because you have never been there, and in reality it is only an abstract suggestion.
You have no Idea what you are saying or who you are saying it to. Again you refuse to answer my question I guess you have no answer.
I am a spirit created by Almighty God. I am sent here by God to carryout specific duties He has chosen for me. While here I live in human form and live like a human, in order to fit in.
When I have completed the tasks assigned by God I will revert to my spirit form again and return to heaven and God.
...and I'm from the planet Zoltar. Sent here in human form to assimilate among Earthlings.
My commandant will call me back in the year Q><
I will then revert back to my alien form.
That is your choice to believe... so you will be dead! I believe I will live! Death is simply my body giving out! I believe this world is just something we pass through! There is much more to life than this world! If death is the end...then I have lived a wonderful life and have no regrets... if not then I have eternity to enjoy!
I do not chose my faith out of fear, for that is what some do, I chose because I feel something bigger than me out there! I feel a spiritual closeness to God! To me, it is not a choice, it is my essence, which leads and guides me! I am drawn to a higher power---God! And I believe we all will see that Jesus is the son of God some day! That is my choice!
"To me, it is not a choice, it is my essence,"
"That is my choice!"
It appears that you cannot accept that death is final, so you manufacture an alternative.
But if it makes you feel better, then God bless you.
I dont see how following the bible is something we manufactured. Just because you couldn't manufacture the truth doesn't mean there is no truth.
Of course there is a truth. There is an overwhelming number of spiritual paths that lead to enlightenment from an overwhelming number of people who have this latent gene that persistently continues in people born today. Your blinkers are on way to tight.
believing is a choice but the choices that we make are mostly influenced by our environment and how we have been raised.
lifer: My belief is believing in my God. This is my choice, influenced by nobody but myself. Me I chose, I chose God to be a part of my life, nobody but nobody forced me to choose. I Am and I choose.
Truly, I'm yet to find someone who has no choice of a thing in this life. The unending debate about God(Spirit) existence can only be proven by it's precepts as Spirit not by sensory perceptions of man, science or religion.
Debates are resolved with common differences but not with this issue at hand. "Believing is a choice."
As Jesus said, he chose us we did not chose him. The Lord above chose us worthy to serve him. To some he closed their minds to the word, as Paul quoted Isaiah in Acts 28:25-28. So we must be grateful to be chosen.
doesn't sound like a very nice person if he has favourites and some are condemned from the beginning
Some things are necessary in order to complete a goal. Did you not ever sluff something off because it did not benefit you? Of course you did we all have... but God cannot.
When you are in control of a planet then you will know the answers to what is important and what is not. Until then... make sure you are a favorite LOL
Believing Is A Choice
Yes believing is a choice; but the human beings as intelligent species and as such they are supposed to exercise this choice with responsibility; if they don't do it; they will be held accountable for not exercising it judiciously.
You know there is no authority without responsibility.
Unless you can believe in your heart of hearts, you just can't believe. And that belief comes from within. No amount of convincing by any outside agency can pesuade you to believe
He is not a person , he is God and there is always hope for salvation if you make a personal choice like stated above "believe in your heart of hearts"
Believing Is A Choice
Sure it is; but one should use this choice with responsibility and intelligently; one is accountable to Allah- the Creator God ultimately for all the attributes bestowed on man.
The idea that we are absolutely free to choose or reject any belief is a fallacy. Beliefs build upon themselves and are self-fulfilling. The beliefs I hold as an adult today have been built upon layers of habitual thoughts that have been accepted due to their resonance with the totality of my being. Such thoughts over time become beliefs.
Our intrinsic nature will be a large determiner of that which we will accept as 'true.' If I am a person who upholds concrete, scientific proof as being very important, my criteria for believing will be more stringent and essentially 'different' than someone who operates more from his 'gut' feelings.
My experiences to date would make it impossible for me to suddenly 'choose' to believe that I am to worship a man named Jesus. It would conflict with everything that I've come to KNOW about life and would therefore involve a complete 'undoing' and unraveling of that which makes me ME.
The only beliefs we are capable of 'choosing' are those that resonate enough with our own sense of knowing and being that adopting them appears to be an attractive and life enhancing option.
My beliefs tell me that To make a choice at this juncture to believe in the God of Christianity would amount to me regressing in terms of my overall view of reality itself.
I'm still sitting here waiting on God to defend himself against my brutal attacks. It's been quite some time now.
...wait there is someone at my chamber door
Dave Mathews wrote:
You will be offered the opportunity to change your mind and believe or not, choose not, and your final destination could probably be the Lake of Fire written about in the Bible.
- = - = - = - =
I only see one thing with this concept.
It then becomes a shell game. There will be as many false ones as there are acorns that fall from 10 oak trees.
Ya can't just have faith that ya picked the right one.
I'm talking about doctrines! NOT Gods ?
There is only one GOD
Just noticed the sentence that was here was from previous post. not mine
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