Childish name-calling and false accusations - more creationist LIES

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   Baileybearposted 13 years ago

   Why do I bother dialoguing with black&white/rigid-view creationists?  They resort to childish name-calling & accuse me of insulting them!
   
   eg just now, I was asked what schitzo meds I was on.  I terminated the conversation as was pointless anyway.  They said they insulted me because I had insulted someone else by calling them schitzo & paranoid. I recall saying I thought someone was paranoid (for good reason, because they were going around calling people that don't believe in god 'demon-possessed').
   
   I didn't call anyone schitzo (so that was a LIE), but this person had called me Beelzebub because they didn't like my hub (which other obviously more mature christians have agreed is an excellent hub).
   
   Grow up people - or will pigs fly first?

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      TahoeDocposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Pigs will evolve into birds under god's direction and fly first. Ad hominem attacks are par for the course when no other defense is possible or have failed.
      
      My discussions with my fundamentalist in-laws always end the same way. I am a beatch, therefore my arguments are flawed. It's a smokescreen to divert attention away from a weak point.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         it's so frustrating.  These people turn up occasionally on a hub and leave viscous attacks.  I have never been that rude on their hubs when I have disagreed with them - they would often delete me anyway.
         
         I must remind myself to say I don't want to talk about it if my parents go on a religious spiel (we are visiting next week, and my mother has not been happy about my latest hubs). 
         
         She can't handle that I don't believe in christianity and more, and have doubted it for years.  I'm nearly 40 for #$##'s sake!
         
         Yes, my mother does this attack business too - with emotions overflowing everywhere.  My dad just does as he's told as far as religion goes (even though he's in charge everywhere else)
         
         How does your hubby handle his fundamentalist parents?  Was he indoctrinated and left?
         
         Also, these fundies accuse science of being a religion, and say we are brainwashed if we understand science - how silly is that?

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            TahoeDocposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Well, my husbands family lives in Georgia and we live in California, so that helps.
            
            When we do have to interact, I try to just politely answer their questions. This of course, never works. They are looking to fight and I try to make it my mental challenge not to engage them.
            
            My husband has a harder time, because he cares a bit what they think of him and they are very, very good at pushing his guilt buttons. They tell him that they will die unhappy because of what he has done to their lives (they are truly awful for how they try to hurt and guilt him). We just try to get through.
            
            After a particularly unpleasant visit a few years ago, I made some rules and very calmly but without a doubt that I meant it, explained it to them. I told them that they were free to ask questions if they wanted to know or understand how we felt or thought about something and we would answer honestly. If they resorted to attacks, I would first give them a warning that the conversation was over. They got one more chance. If they blow it, I will call them a cab and send them to a hotel. Same if they started using their guilt and emotionally manipulative tactics on my husband.
            
            Hubby was raised Southern Baptist. He's smart and saw lots of contradictions when he started trying to really LIVE the way the bible say to live. He realized if he removed his own interpretation (which was different than someone else's), the bible didn't really make a lot of sense. He left during college  when he realized that the other christians there also thought that they had a monopoly on the truth. If christians couldn't all come to the same conclusion, then there was a problem. There were lots of other reasons, but he basically rejected it after trying to literally accept it. Couldn't.

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               Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Distance helps - we live in a different country.  I told my (very rational)  father to tell my mother that I did not want any emotional blackmail, criticism etc.  They did their best, but started criticising our parenting skills towards the end of their visit.
               
               They just give off vibes that they disapprove of everything we say and do. 
               
               The previous visit they told me my husband is not a very good husband as he has not bought me a house - which of course, I found very upsetting, as my husband is the only person in the entire world that has accepted me.
               
               Controlling religious parents are very difficult, even when the children become adults.  My brother-in-laws avoid them; one has refused to speak to them for over a decade, even when going to same church.
               
               My mother's the emotional one - she's very skilled at emotional blackmail & trying to make one feel guilty.  She's screamed at me a few times and told me on several occasions I was the worst daughter (which is crap, because I was the most behaved - they didn't like that I became independent eventually)
               
               I wrote my hubs re christianity, weighed up whether to put them on this profile (which I post to Facebook and friends of theirs read from my former life), or under my more anonymous profile. I decided to be brave and let them know what I thought - it was like 'coming out'.  Only took a few days to get crappy emails.  My mother hasn't phoned me since.

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      pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It might be helpful (or not) to remember that those who resort to name calling and insults are doing so because the seeds of that which they are seeing are within them not you.
      
      You are a reflection therefore of what they do not like about themselves. Does not necessarily mean it is actually about you.
      
      They may believe in their perception that it is all about you and your actions or words. But in all reality it is about them and what you invoke in them...about them. Unconscious a lot of the time.
      
      If they did not have these seeds it is less likely they will insult you or call you names.

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think I'm pretty good at hitting nerves.
         
         They've called me Hitler, said I work for Satan and other rubbish. 
         
         I thought the schizophrenia one continues to stigmatize those with mental illness (seems the fundies contribute a lot to stigmatizing people in society)

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            pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            Goodness me! Perhaps you are invoking all that they fear. Fear of the unknown is a powerful thing. Erroneous but real all the same to some.
            
            Whats a fundie?

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               Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               fundamentalist christian - the people that believe the bible is literal & condemn everyone because of their very rigid beliefs

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                  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh!

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                  Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I thought they were called Fanatical? I was attacked two weeks ago on a question I posted and wrote the person a personal email. I asked them not to try to make me look like an a$$hole by misconstruing my words. I also said if they did not understand why I posted that question they should have just asked me why, instead of calling me a hypocrite and other things. 
                  
                  I always say, "Believe in what you want to believe. Just dont try to shove it down my throat. I'd be more receptive if things were explained to me in a polite way so that I may be able to make up my own mind. Who knows, I might just agree at the end."
                  
                  Some people here don't feel that it is best to take there time to get to know a fellow hubber before disagreeing so furiously and publicly as they do. It is sad...

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                     Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     the fundies are often fanatical too

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            another accusation is that I was 'never a true christian in the first place' because I would never have given it away.  Well, these people make me glad I gave it away!

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               Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               You didn't give it away. Maybe you began to believe something else. That does not mean that were never a true christian. To those that write negative things like that just write back, "God bless you too."
               
               So quick to judge, ughhhh.

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                  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  yes, I'm gradually becoming cynical when I read their rants

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         EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I don't normally look at the religious threads, but I'm so glad I dived into this one and saw this post. 
         
         What you've said here is so, so true.  I am experiencing it myself at the moment, in a totally different, non-religious context.

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            because people with narrow views can't accept that you have different views?
            
            Politics is the other biggie apart from religion that gets people's knickers in a twist

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            pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yes it applies in all areas of our lives unfortunately.

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      Wintermystposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Baileybear I am remarking to your first post.
      Pigs will fly.

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         pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         There is obviously enough grown ups existing because they are not flying yet...or are they?

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      SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Baileybear 7 days ago
      James is paranoid that everyone is possessed by demons. Seems the schizophrenia analogy was very appropriate and hit a nerve or two

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         surprise, surprise - here's one now, quoting out of context.  Now why did I say schizophrenia analogy?
         Oh, yes, I was responding to Joyus's hub http://hubpages.com/hub/Evolution-is-a-Fact   "Thus, ancients who heard the voice of God were being quite literal—that is, they literally heard a voice speaking to them, which they attributed to their god. Only, as in schizophrenia, it was a hallucinated voice, coming from inside their head."
         
         Why did I say James was paranoid?  Well, here's some quotes by James himself: 
         "This is a shameful, demeaning section that smacks of being inspired by demons....This kind of thought can only come from the blackest of hearts." (to Joyous)
         "Don't mind the insults from the demon-possessed." (on Magnoliaz's Hitler hub)
         "Beelzebub wrote: (then quoted me)...You are not simply misinformed; You are lying throught your teeth...You have served your master well." On my hub about evolution of christianity.
         
         And what did you write to me, SirDent?  "By the way BB, what type of medications did you use to take care of your schitzophrenia?...Making insults? You said James was schitzo and paranoid. So I figure if you think we are like that now because we believe, you must have been there before." (on highvoltagewriter's hub)

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            SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            So you are saying when you say it, it isn't name calling?   NO matter what was written in the hub, you made it look like James was schitzophrenic. 
            
            James said it smacks of being demon inspired.  What he meant was, "It seems to be demon inspired."  Talk about taking things out of context.   
            
            You have stated many times that you used to be a believer.  Now you are not because you say, (paraphrased) you found something better.  When you did believe were you schitzophrenic and/or paranoid?

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               Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I was making an observation based on fact (what James actually said).   You're trying to water down what he said.   You can't distinguish btwn fact and fiction & neither can J.
               
               You want me to be more direct?
               
               You're both schizophrenic, dellusional and paranoid - there - satisfied? 
               
               Who doesn't agree with the delusions you two carry on about.  How many of your hubs are about demons?  Get a grip on reality.
               
               Funny, how since I stopped believing in God and all that nonsense, there were no more demons lurking behind every bush anymore - no anti-psychotic medication needed thank-you.  But if I did have 'voices in my head' which needed meds, then I'm sure the 'voices' would be gone. 
               
               Think you better go and get checked by the doctor - I'm deeply concerned by your mental health. 
               
               Religion is bad for your mental health.   I was indoctrinated as a child, and as and adult, came to realise what delusional, dangerous, rubbish it all is.   
               
               Why do you feel the need to fight James' battles?  It's not like he doesn't have enough insults of his own.  Poor James - am I picking on him?  get the violin out and play a sad song.
               
               
               James is now harping on about how 'unintelligent' certain races are - not sure how that's an argument against evolution.  Certainly doesn't help his cause as a ' christian'.  Do you subscribe to his white supremacist views too?
               
               How on earth people like you attract people to christianity - I cannot comprehend.
               
               If one person hears voices, they are called psychotic.  If a mass of people hear voices (or rather follow a 'leader' that does) it's called a religion.
               
               So, you and J see yourselves as 'shepherds' to lead the flock.  God save the sheep - oh dear, God doesn't exist to save them.  People beware; don't be sheep and follow delusional morons that think they are in touch with god.

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                  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  So you are a hypocrite also?

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                     Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     No, I'm merely stating the facts, unlike you

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      Austinstarposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      SirDent 36 minutes ago
      Evolution is a religion, based upon a non-factual theory, based upon the words of a man.
      Christianity is a belief, based upon faith, based upon evidence that is real and can be seen.
      Not one person living or dead can say with truth that God did not create everything there is. The heavens declare His glory. The birds of the air sing praises to Him. All animals praise Him. Humans are the ones full of iniquity.
      The Bible says that God rested on the seventh day from creating. This shows evolution, as presented by evilutionists, to be false.
      
      Austinstar 1 second ago
      Edit Your Comment (open for 5 minutes)
      SirDent, excuse me for saying so, but you are a stupid, stupid man. I'm not calling you names, I'm stating a fact.
      HVW, if you wish to delete this comment so be it. I will post it in the forums. I cannot let those words go unchallenged. He is spouting lies and misinformation. I do hope you and your readers can recognize it.
      He calls true scientists "EVILutionists" instead of trying to prove that GOD created the universe, he mocks the one theory that in his mind is "non-factual", when instead of trying to understand God's natural world which is all that the theory of evolution attempts to do.

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         SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Last time I checked the TOS for forums, attacks and insults were against the rules.  Glad to see your true colors though.  it speaks volumes in who you really are.

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            it's not like you and J don't use insults and attacks - what a hypocrite

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               china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               hypocrite and prolific reporter of people who are anti his views - but normally 'for' other people - hiding his colours I guess.

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   Lisa HWposted 13 years ago

   I suspect you didn't intend this thread to be funny; but as an "objective observer", the way you've written it and the names you say you've been called kind of crack me up.     I "love" "Beelzebub" (nobody's ever called me that one).    The mental-illness cracks aren't very original on their part, are they?  (Everyone uses the "meds" thing.    )  "Hitler's" pretty funny - but another one that's overdone.     (Who even has "Beelzebub" in their repertoire when it comes to thinking up names to call people!  ) (If you have "Beelzebub" in your repertoire you know you're pretty much well off the mainstream track in society.    )

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      the irony is, I'd consider these people to have the kind of mentality more like Hitler. 
      
      Guess the truth hurts..
      
      I actually thought they were referring to a post by beezedad, but he hadn't been there, then realised they were talking to me, as quoted me, in a rather viscous attack.
      
      Oh, well, the bigger the reaction, the more successful I must have been at hitting nerves.
      
      And these are 'christians' calling these names.  They called everyone that doesn't believe what they believe 'demon-possessed.' 
      
      One of these hubbers is rather popular, but has rather scary political views - very intolerant with racist undertones - very white, christian supremacist ideology - everyone else  is considered evil.
      
      I don't even bother calling names back, but I bet if I did, they'd have me banned. 
      
      I usually leave their comments and give them a rather hostile reply if on my hub though (so hopefully people can see what these morons are like)

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         Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         WTF is a beelzebub anyway? Where did that come from?

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            Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            the devil/satan
            
            http://www.answers.com/topic/beelzebub

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            Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            There is reference to Beelzebub in the bible, haven't you read the bible yet?
            
            Matthew 12:22-37.

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               Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Beelzedad, are you being serious with this question?
               
               Baileybear, thanks for the definition. Learned something new today.

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                  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Of course, if you haven't heard of Beelzebub, then it most likely means you haven't read the bible.

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                     Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     I have read it, I just don't read it everyday. Twice was enough for me and even then it was hard to follow. I'd rather hear someone like yourself tell me stories from it and make sense of it for me. I like to hear others interpretations of the Bible and their version of the stories instead of having someone quote some passages that really do not make much sense to me.
                     
                     I am still a student willing to learn.

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                        Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        That makes no sense, you claim to have read the bible twice but don't ever recall seeing passages about Beelzebub???
                        
                        
                        
                        There are many passages in the bible that don't make any sense, that is true. But, it is the actual quotes, not someones interpretation of them that is key to making any sense of the bible.

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                           Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           There are many words I have seen and did not understand the meaning of them. That is why I am asking. So instead of being sarcastic why not help a person understand.
                           
                           If all you want to do is insult someone for asking a simple question and argue you can argue with yourself. Have a blessed day!

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                              Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Yes, I was surprised you hadn't come across Beelzebub in the bible.
                              I would suggest avoiding the KJV (as has shakespearean language to further complicate things); get a more plain english version, and read it, particularly the old testament, and consider how you feel about the god described in there (ie killed people, was okay with harming animals, okay with slavery etc).

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                              Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              It just seems very odd, yet perfectly understandable, that there are those who believe in the biblical god but don't even understand simple concepts in the bible. "Beelzebub" is a word that was clearly defined and understandable, yet you claim to have not understood it after having read the bible twice.
                              
                              Very odd, indeed.

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                                 Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 I know it is odd but sadly true...

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                        Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        everyone has so many different interpretations & some are just insane nutters, so I would recommend not basing your faith on what others interpretation is

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                           Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           I wouldn't do that Baileybear, I would not base my faith on what any one else believes. I like to hear what others opinions are and see what I may be able to learn from all of the different views, its interesting to me.

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   Missing Linkposted 13 years ago

   dialogue in general per all topics frustrates me per misunderstandings, miscommunication, etc.  I think by the time we die only a fraction of all we have ever said has been understood or grasped
   
   so what am I trying to say right...hardy har har

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   libby101aposted 13 years ago

   I don't think anyone should resort to name calling! It's sad! I believe everyone has the right to believe however they want! We are all unique and it's easy to see everyone is not going to agree on everything!
   
   It would be nice if everything in life was spelled out where we could all see it in the same light...but that is not going to happen!
   
   We all have to learn to get along... and respect each other! We don't necessarily have to respect their beliefs...but we should respect the person--until they resort to name-calling!
   
   Everyone should be able to discuss their beliefs without being bombarded with horrible remarks and name calling! As adults we should be able to carry on intellectual conversations and learn from one another without all that nonsense!

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      Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I absolutely agree.

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   DoubleScorpionposted 13 years ago

   I come from a very, very strict christian background. I was raised Wesleyan Holiness (which is about 1-2 steps down from amish living). I am no longer of a christian faith because as I got older, instead of blindly following what I learned in church about the bible, I read and studied the bible for myself. I also cross referenced the bible with various versions. Using the KJV or NIV to compare something in the NLB. I also read through various Comentaries written by people who are supposed to be regarded as experts on biblical studies...Some of the things that I found out is that no-one ever interprets what is written in the bible the exact same way. And those word variances or the way a certain phrase was re-written into english over all completely changed the meaning. I also studied the origins of how the english versions came to be, let me just say it was always a pretty thing. A few things that I have noticed in my experiences, is that the "believers" always tell me that I don't understand the bible because I am not christian, and therefore my interpretations are flawed...My return argument is, if the bible is to be understood only by those who "truly" believe then how come there is over 32,000 different christian denominations...if god guides your understanding of the bible then everyone who is a "true" believer should understand it exactly the same way. One of the questions that I like to ask people when the say I am going to hell for not believing in their "god" is Can you tell me exactly who or what your god is so that I might believe in him/her? Of course to this day that has never happened...I have never met anyone who can answer that question... Another thing that i like to say when someone calls me a satan/ devil worshipper is...that I cannot worship what I do not believe in... Only the "Biblical" faiths believe in satan/devil. I have also be told that I cannot pick an choose what to believe as truth from the bible...to this I ask these questions... Do you believe in dragons? Answer: No. Ok.. do you believe the bible is to be taken literally or figuratively? If answer is: both, I ask: How do you choose? If answer is: literally ( I have never gotten only Figurative as an answer to date). I ask them to explain the 7 Headed Dragon in Revelations. To which I normally get an answer of: well, that is figurative... You will always have those who will attack you...and if you can't avoid them...the best defence is to become fully knowledgable in the only proof that they have...and learn to riposte well.

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      TahoeDocposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      This sounds a lot like my husband's journey out of his brainwashing. I wonder why some people can let go and some can't.

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         DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         This is something I have been wondering myself. And this is the answer that I have come up with...The reason some are able to overcome the "brainwashing" is because they have decided to start reading and studing the bible to get a more complete understanding... To do this properly you have to approach it with a completely open mind and when you do this you begin to understand what is written in the bible correctly and come to the understanding that it is in fact just a book of stories just like any other book...There is alot of good points...but there is also alot of bad points...same with any book on self help, or mythology, diets, or pick your own, but the key to it is being able to seive through and pick out the parts that speak to you and give you guidance on how to live YOUR life in a manner than allows you to sleep at night, or look at yourself in the mirror. Those who cannot do these things will remained "brainwashed"...It is my opinion that they are either scared of what they will find or they are just to lazy to figure things out for themselves and are happy "going through the motions". And the rest have read and studied the bible with a closed mind ( Knowing the "truth" before reading only allows you to find what you already know) Now of course there are those who have read and studied and don't really believe in "god" per-se. But attending church and worship allows them the ability to feed that "spiritual body" that they require to keep fed for their own peace of mind.

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            ddlg1958posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You are exactly right about reading the Bible with a clear and open mind. The 'church' has given the Bible a bad name to critical thinkers. If you assume that nothing the church has said through the centuries is true, and just read the Bible for what it says to you, using the knowledge you have acquired over the years, you will find truths you might not have imagined. To me, pure creationists fear science; where people of faith embrace it. There have been no scientific discoveries that have refuted anything stated in the Bible. Read critically, it only validates it; as difficult as that may be to believe.

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               DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Here is an example that you might find interesting...Reading in Genesis...God created light twice...once on the first day... and again on the 4th day...for a long time this never made sense to me...then I used an open mind a re-read everything...Imagine my surprise when I read St. John Chapter 1. It explains the light on the first day...and if you go back and re-read Gen 1:3 who will notice that is says : And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.....Well in John it says that Jesus is the word (of God) and the he is the Light of the world...Some will argue that Jesus was created...and i will agree...God didn't create Light (Jesus) the first day...He "Spoke" (Jesus) and the Light (Jesus) was...Jesus is the Light as well as the spoken word of God...or so according to the bible... that is... in my opinion....

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                  ddlg1958posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  And it is a nice one. It might be a little more than a new reader would be able to follow, but that is what is so amazing. Every time you read it you see a little more, understand a little deeper than the last time.

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      Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you DS, thank you. You are very insightful and I appreciate you taking the time to explain this the way you did.
      
      I believe in God and Jesus but I don't see them the way many others do. I believe that Jesus has a sense of humor, he must have one in order to understand me!
      
      I am not trying to be disrespectful by saying this. It is just what I believe when it comes to Jesus. So many people forget that although he was divine he was also a human being once. He was sociable with everyone. He didn't care about the persons lifestyle, whether they were homeless, prostitutes, etc. He would be right there with his cup of wine talking with everyone. With an open mind and an open heart never judging, just giving advice and teaching them by telling his stories. Thats how so many learned through story telling, the way we have growing up.
      
      How can a person like that not have a sense of humor if he was so compassionate?. I'm sure he told jokes while he was alive fishing with his Apostles. This is the Jesus I believe in and can relate to. The one that gave everyone the benefit of the doubt and welcomed them with open arms. Even as a child he was rebellious like so many of us were growing up but he made up for it as an adult by dedicating his life to teaching his fathers word and that made his parents proud and I love that...
      
      

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         what do you make of the extremists/fanatics that use fear tactics etc?  Do they make you cringe?

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            Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I find this to be a sad way to share ones love for God. Yes they do make me cringe to the point of nausea.

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         DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Sounds like you have found your personal path. I think that so many people forget that faith in the "spiritual" is a personal one...Only you can know what it means for you...how you view your deity of choice, how having a personal connection with this "spiritual enity" is something that can not be explained. To me I really don't care who or what you believe in...as long as you are true to yourself and your beliefs...One thing is...no matter how long you talk, how loud you talk, you will never be able to show someone else what it is that you feel inside...If people would start telling others how they feel and why they live like they do (if asked) instead of telling others how they should live ( normally without ever being asked) I think we all could get along alot better than we do now...

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            Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Absolutely! You really understood what I mean't. Bless you DS

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            pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yes!

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      pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Haha nice approach.

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   hanging outposted 13 years ago

   reapin what yer sowin
   
   truth does hurt
   of course those truths you also fail to admonish as truth and balk at in your common unbelieving style.

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm nearly as cynical about you too

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         Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Smile Baileybear... you are loved.

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      frogdroppingposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I hope your own scythe is plenty sharp.
      
      @ BB - I'm sure that you're aware of why people name-call. It's what happens when they've nothing decent, useful or appropriate to say. It's just a loss of control. Not that calling someone a schizo is the way to gain it back. Still ... maybe it just makes them feel a tiny bit better about themselves.
      
      At least you don't have to physically listen to it. At least online it's words on screen. You're exempt from the accompanying screaming

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         true - it's easier to laugh at how ridiculous they are if I don't have to hear their voice/emotion

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      skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      How's that for typical peaceful believer's intellectual attack

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         Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         'intellectual'?

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   Jeramiposted 13 years ago

   ddlg1958 wrote:
   You are exactly right about reading the Bible with a clear and open mind. The 'church' has given the Bible a bad name to critical thinkers. If you assume that nothing the church has said through the centuries is true, and just read the Bible for what it says to you, using the knowledge you have acquired over the years, you will find truths you might not have imagined. To me, pure creationists fear science; where people of faith embrace it. There have been no scientific discoveries that have refuted anything stated in the Bible. Read critically, it only validates it; as difficult as that may be to believe.
   - = - = - = - = - = - = -
   DoubleScorpion wrote ...
     Here is an example that you might find interesting...Reading in Genesis...God created light twice...once on the first day... and again on the 4th day...for a long time this never made sense to me...then I used an open mind a re-read everything...Imagine my surprise when I read St. John Chapter 1. It explains the light on the first day...and if you go back and re-read Gen 1:3 who will notice that is says : And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.....Well in John it says that Jesus is the word (of God) and the he is the Light of the world...Some will argue that Jesus was created...and i will agree...God didn't create Light (Jesus) the first day...He "Spoke" (Jesus) and the Light (Jesus) was...Jesus is the Light as well as the spoken word of God...or so according to the bible... that is... in my opinion....
   
   ----------------------------
   
   
     YES   YES    YES   to both comments.
   
      Very important message..  Which can not be overestated.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night."
      
      Not sure I see anything to interpret here. Odd that you prefer your interpretation to what is actually written.

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         DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Yep that is true he did...But of course if you believe in science then that just can't be right if he doesn't create the sun and moon until the fourth day...Can't have a Day or Night as we currently understand Day and Night to be. So the only way this could make sense enough to justify that the bible might be "true" would be to take the first creation of light and darkness and apply that to a figurative sense and we get (in my opinion of the bible only) Jesus (light of the world) and Satan (or the darkness of the world). Of course I am not, nor do I claim to be christian. So of course christian will say that I don't understand the bible...and of course if you don't believe in god of any sort...then of course the bible is just a book (a badly written one to alot of people) that should be taken at only face value. Of course it is not my place to say who is right or who is wrong...I just offer my opinion of things that I have read or learned through various means...does that make me right or wrong... Nope... Am I going to push what I believe on anyone else as "proof or truth" of the existance of or the non existance of a divine enity...Nope...and if anything that I write here is taken that way, then it is because I worded my thoughts inaccurately.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Oh - I was not directing my comment at you. I was directing it at Jerami who gets very angry with people for interpreting the bible instead of reading what it says. I was giving him a hard time - that is all.
            
            Of course - the Bible does not actually make any sense when you read it - hence the 35,000 different denominations who have interpreted it to suit their personal preferences.
            
            You can "interpret," it to say just about anything you like. But this passage is pretty clear and I do not see where you come up with your version - it does not make any sense in context.

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               DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I agree...a person can interpret anything...And it is why we have such interesting "debates" on the forums... I must say that I enjoy your logic behind your arguements.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Thanks.

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                  Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I always look forward to reading your post/replies to Mark.

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               DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               The bible will never make "sense" if you take it completely literal...To make sense "religiously" you have to interpret parts of it figuratively. And that is why we have over 32,000 christian denominations out there...people have to learn to seperate physical life from the "spiritual life" because until they do we will continue to have the issues we see today. Applying "religion" to a purely "spiritual life" (personal) and stop trying to apply it to the physical plane of existance or as a physical "truth" then maybe we can co-exist. Things like Science and things on the physical plane can be proven to everyone. Beliefs or the "spiritual plane" can only be proven on a personal level only...trying to explain or prove a feeling or a "spiritual experience" to someone who can not see, touch, feel,smell or hear it...is just not possible unless they have experienced the exact same thing...and experiencing the exact same things on a "spiritual level" is just not possible...And of course...you will never find a "true believer" who is willing to seperate the physical from the "spiritual".

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         Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I see that this is the only point of arguement that you cared to mention.
            This is not an interpretation problem, it is a translation problem.
            What words were "Day" and "night" in this verse translated from "God called the light Day and the darkness he called night"   
           It can not be refering to the same kind of night and day as what we would suppose because according to these scripture, the sun and moon had not yet been put in place.
         
           How many other posabilities are there for undrstanding what this could have been reffering to? I can only imagine the one that DoubleScorpion posted.
           But I am open to another if anyone has one.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Quite right - the bible does not make any sense so you need to change the words to make it mean something other than what it actually says.
            
            "And there was evening and there was morning, one day."
            
            Good grief.

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   Merlin Fraserposted 13 years ago

   Hey B-B,
   
     You said it in your leading Post...."Why Do you Bother ?"
   
     You can't educate Pork, nor can you ever hope to open a closed mind and you are battling some pretty closed minds....
   
   Why Bother ?

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      Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      exactly.  Is a rhetorical question, I guess

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