Everyone keeps talking about heaven and hell, and I honestly don't believe the average Christian understands the insanity of this belief, so I thought it might be helpful to share the numbers.
Statistics show that an average of 56,597,034 people die worldwide every year. With 33% of the world assumed as Christian that means 37,731,356 people per year (103, 373 per day) are, by your philosophy, headed for fiery torment; or, to those of you that believe in a common grave that's a pretty big pit that has to be dug outside the gates of heaven every year.
Assuming the average person lives 70 years, The number of people bound for hell in your lifetime, thanks to this wonderful philosophy, is a mind boggling 2,641,194,920
To anyone that might have become lost in all of the commas; that's over 2.5 billion condemned to hell by your philosophy.
My question to christians is, how does this make you feel about your belief in heaven?
I still believe and don't worry about the numbers. Honestly I have to worry about me. All of us are entitled to our beliefs and one would hope that one day all of us can get along and have peace with each other. ***sigh***
See, that was always a stumbling block for me. It seems so unfair, when you're told God is loving. I assumed the church had it wrong. I always said if I ever believed it was real I was out of there. Wouldn't want to be a part of heaven if it meant that much suffering for others.
Some people like AE use her morals as beliefs as well, and I have always admired good morals from wherever they come, from those who believe and those who don't.
In the two years I have been here I have not seen AE do or say anything objectionable to me.
I like AE a lot, she is good people, I see it as unfortunate that because my beliefs and hers are not the same that some of what I say could be hurtful, something she has always avoided doing to me. A classy lady.
Hey. Nice post ernest. She does seem nice. And, it's easy to understand why the numbers don't effect people. We've all lost loved ones we wish the best for. I just saw your conversation with her on another thread and feel bad about replying to her post.
I understand. AE is big and strong, like a lioness only she is quiet about it. It is always difficult to speak to others about losses.
I am not a christian, which don't matter , I BELIEVE IN GOD!!
I think the most important is how an individual, carries his/her belief through to the end and keeping in mind their faith and morals and their input in this life.. I believe in good-doers ....sadly we live in a world where a minority ... affects our lives- our thinking AND our belief...
Never lose HOPE I say , and I hope for a peaceful end, for me anyway..
I am sure no one will stand in my way... unless GOD chooses to..
earnest and AEvans sitting up a tree....
AE is lovely,I agree.
We all stand up for what we believe in different ways.
I prefer to just talk about Christ and discuss a little scripture,but if backed into a corner and mocked, I wont smile and whisper 'have a good day' ,I will stand up and be counted.
Of course offline Im really shy
God is love. When the other 35 million figure it out, our world would be more pleasant to be in. All of us should be able to discuss our thoughts and beliefs without someone else saying it is wrong. Some of my own Christian brothers and sisters do it and it is not right. We should not ever judge another for their beliefs, but gain knowledge and understanding from each other.
As for mom it was hard when she was called home. But I am back on Hubpages and what makes me happy is to see everyone here. Mom loved people and life, so for mom I am continuing her legacy.
I am in total agreement that we should see other beliefs as a chance to learn. Your mother sounds as if she were a beautiful person, as do you.
She was amd I try but sometimes being to nice gets me in trouble. lolololo
I agree with AE. A person beliefs are well, just that, personal! It is something that they hold close to their hearts. And to judge that is to judge their heart and their character, which some people are less than fond of.
I believe God extends beyond love and into faith, hope, and trust. Faith that there is a God and Heaven, hope that we will make it through this world while being safe in his arms, and trust that he will choose us to be in his kingdom. Although, if we believe in his then we are already chosen, or so that is what I believe.
Hell was not created for man. It was created for the devil and his angels. God made a way for all to stay out of that dreadful place.
You write as if you believe Christians like the thought of people going there. I tell you this, we don't. We are told that we threaten people with hell, but we merely warn them not to go there.
Hell is a very real place. Anyone who ends up there does so of their own choosing. The best thing anyone can do is confess Jesus Christ and stay out of that place.
God does not want anyone to perish, but He will not force anyone to come to Him. We all have a choice to make, live in sin with no confession of faith in Jesus Christ or we can confess Jesus Christ and believe God raised Him from the dead.
Sir Dent. I have a follow up question. I would like to ask you. The scriptures talk about the keys to heaven. Something about what is unlocked on earth will be unlocked in heaven. What's that passage? Who are they talking about having the keys?
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Jesus has the keys then gives the keys to believers.
So, why can't believers loose this philosophy? Why can't they loose the belief that good people suffer, simply because they don't see the same truth?
I'm not attempting to be argumentative, but it all simply sounds so horrible. When you look at it in black and white.
We can't change the laws of God; we can't force people to accept Him.
If you sent your son to die so that others could live, and all you asked was that people trust that and you would not condemn them.. and they spat in your face and ignored the gift...
and yet we know that every soul matters to God.. and it breaks the heart of God that any should perish. That's why Jesus came...
John 3:16&17 - For GOD so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that through Him the world might be saved.
Every time someone mentions Jesus and the salvation message, it is loosed on earth and in heaven. Once salvation comes, it is up to the individual to accept it or not. Many people die because of preaching the gospel message of Christ. Not so much in the US but in many nations of the world.
We cannot change God's Word. That is what so many try to do. Even some evangelists change it.
God made a perfect way for all people. No other way will work or even come close to His way. Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.(bolded part done by me)
By the spirit of God man can come to Him. No other way can work or God would be a liar. We know that God cannot lie. A man may think that giving everything he owns away will buy him a spot in heaven, but it doesn't. It takes grace to enter into heaven.
So, I take it that's a no?
Oh well, thanks for responding anyway.
If I had just simply typed the word "NO" you would have asked me to explain.
No, I don't think I would have, although I can certainly understand why you would think that. To be honest, I'm just looking to see if anyone has honestly thought about this. What I feel like I'm finding is no, and they don't care. It's very sad to me, but it isn't as if I can change the fact of what people want to believe, no matter how horrible it sounds.
To be honest, I have thought about it. I have been a christian for a little over 14 years. The early years had my mind thinking about everything and believing very little. I used to be a skeptic at heart.
One has to see the love of God. If you, (generic you that can mean anyone), cannot see it you will not come to God. When you hear His voice calling, you will respond. You will either come to Him or you will reject Him.
I look at it like this. If I was a soldier in a war and some of my buddies were killed right beside me, should I stop fighting just because of that? The enemy doesn't care how many are destroyed. He wil continue to fight you as long as you are alive.
When I touched down at O'Hare airport in the middle of February during some of the worst snowstorms, I knew Chicago was a very real place.
So, when did you touch down in hell, SirDent?
There are lies, there are damned lies... and then there are statistics...
I rest my case...
Afraid I didn't get your point. Are the lies heaven? The damn lies hell? The statistics the ones I posted? Or did you mean something else?
a) What right do you have to call Christians insane?
b) Who spent the time "Making up," your statistics and where is your, "Statistical," proof of their validity? (Even the most lethargic of statisticians frequently tend to quote their, "Sources.")
c) Are you going to accept your time off work at Easter and allow your children Easter Eggs (if applicable)
This could be but a starter for ten. I am, however, tired...
Good night. God bless...
I apologize if the question upset you. A simple goole search will give you the numbers. I simply didn't think those who believed in hell had pondered the ramifications of their belief. I assume, from your reaction, you hadn't.
I ponder eternity
You could too, its a choice we all have ,after all.
I have never pondered hell for others. In all the time I associated with Christianity it never made sense. I was thinking about it and when I ran the numbers I wondered if anyone had taken the time to see the extent of the potential suffering that would be caused by this belief.
I found it heart wrenching that anyone would believe this before and now is no different.
I personally know of many missionaries who feel the gut wrenching emotion and empathy often and that is why they sacrifice time ,prayers and love to spread the news.
I really dont get where youre going with this discussion?
I mean seriously Gods laws and plans havent just been sprung on us.
I'm not going anywhere. It has already become obvious that christians know this is the end result of their belief and don't care. I am truly horrified that I associated myself with it for so long.
Sorry. This is the saddest thing I've seen in a very long time.
I don't think it is the end but the beginning of a very interesting discussion. Remember everyone is entitled to respond and express there thoughts. Just_curious keep an open mind and you could learn so much from all of your responses. It could become a really great hub.
I believe I do have an open mind, but I'll be honest I can't wrap my head around the fact that so many argue that christianity is the only answer and now prove they know what would be the result if their belief is true. I don't mean to sound unkind, but I find the belief in hell somehow mean spirited.
I don't normally post anything from the Bible and as you know I have my belief but would not ever argue my faith. Here is a link http://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell about what the Bible says about Hell. Heaven or hell is determined by what a person believes....... So just because one believes in it does not mean another does or has to. I believe there is a heaven and hell but it doesn't mean my friends who do not believe has to. I pray for everyone just because that is what the Lord has told me to do. I hope that link helps you.
Never let Satan try to sidetrack your belief or faith. Just pray for the answers if you believe.
How could you have been a Christian and NOT know about hell.
There is something sadder though than hell ,and thats doing nothing about it? IMO
I guess thats the difference between feeling worried and feeling concerned.
To me its obvious you are the one that does not care,yet you have walked on both sides of the fence,therefore know the outcomes of either decision?
Nope. I've never believed in hell for anyone. To me, it's mean spirited and cruel; which makes it outside of the bounds of Jesus' words. Sorry, it isn't my idea of walking in the footsteps of Jesus.
My point was Follow those footsteps and ya wont end up some place you dont wanna be.
Exactly. Which is the point of the whole question. This belief is not following in his footsteps.
Def int logic innit.
So, very, very funny that you think this is what Jesus wanted you to do.
I just read about Saul and am smiling.
Mark,there's hope for you yet
Where were they walking to? Fighting over what god sed, sticking a "do as I say, not as I do," religion to everyone else and lying to try and get the bible re-introduced as mandatory reading for the sheeple at school?
Because that is what most self-professed Christians seem to do.
2,000 years of wars and conflicts, and still they don't get it.
I know Mark. It's mind boggling how little people want to think, or care for their fellow man. It's a disturbing concept no caring person would ever include as a truth about anything.
Incredible how sad you say you felt ,yet do nothing about it?
How do you justify that I wonder?
JC ,you throw doubt on how some Christians believe and question their attitudes and emotions etc regarding Hell.
I now question yours, You say in all the time you were a Christian,you never thought (or considered Hell)..
Most Christians would find that statement pretty hard to swallow,since Hell is mentioned several times throighout the Bible and included in countless Bible Studies.
Hells defination has never been hidden,( its the topic ,Atheists love to hate)so to say the whole concept was foreign to you, makes me wonder about your previous Christian conversion period.
The solution is plain and simple ,not easy ,but is achievable.
I find that quite insincere,but oh well looks like youre not the only amazed one here.
Kinda reminds me of someone who says they feel sad about a situation,but never physically do anything to help.
Gee Eagle kiwi. Not sure how to change anyone's mindset, other than offering facts; which appear to have no effect on believers of this foolishness.
Think what you will of me, but yes, its true. I've never believed in hell. It makes no sense, if you follow it through; unless, of course, your only concern is for yourself. Then it makes perfect unfortunate sense.
I always felt you had to start with a premise. Mine was God is Love. Belief in hell cannot follow behind this statement.
Love is not fluffy marshmallows and dancing fairies.
God didnt say 'Lets make a deal"
He said "He is the deal" !
There are many examples of tough love both in the Bible and in everyday lives.
It makes the Love stable and strong.
I was a teenage mother,my father didnt say, oh well I love you ,carry on with your lifestyle because I love you!
No, he said this is my house ,you are my daughter and these are the consequences of your actions....
At that point I had a choice...My way or my fathers way.
Of course I interepted his was way as 'unloving'. Such is the folly of youth and immaturity.
Then I grew up and pleased I didnt base my life on 'just emotion' surely it would have bought me much heartache and who knows what else.
Bottom line in life ,is EVERYTHING has a consequence.
If Heaven had murderers ,pedophiles,abusers,liars,cheaters and evil minds,who'd wanna be there-I wouldnt.
To each his own, of course. I simply still cannot imagine eternal torment as justifiable for a mortal lifetime of sin. No matter how heinous I might consider that sin to be.
But, I don't believe in the Christian concept of heaven either. So maybe that's the difference. I can't imagine an eternity of just hanging out as more than eternal torture.
Cor blimey guv'nor - some one tell kiwi here that if'n them pedophiles and child murderers etc dun repented they will be in there next to her.
But, what if heaven were filled with those you refer? Don't you really believe that would indeed be the case? If any one of those you mentioned above committed most of their lives the acts for which they were convicted, but later on in life repented, they may very well have been saved and went to heaven.
On the flip side, you could instead spend your time in hell and we can both sit and chat about how hot it is there. At the very least, you'll have the satisfying knowledge that you spent your time with none of the above.
The topic will always come back to faith.
Faith in what is unseen.
Normally I would look at life from a human perspective,Christ encourages me to look at life and Him, from a Spiritual perspective as well.
Therefore heaven and its enitirety is not within our human minds.
I do know however ,that conversion includes newness of mind, transformation ,manifested by a noticeable change in behaviour.
Still those things are human changes (hopefully)
Spiritually ,more encouraging.
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him
But, we are doing something about it, we are laughing our heads off at the childish belief in a hell.
You do not seem to be a bad person but that makes me wonder all the more why you are pursuing this controversial line of debate and enquiry?
I would suggest that you firstly learn of Christian beliefs before you so wholeheartedly condemn them and make such preposterous accusations. Your knowledge is clearly extremely... limited. Hellfire and brimstone is some several centuries out of date...
I really don't get it, why so many people make so many criticisims, based on what is obviously such little knowledge...
Is Christian bashing a new fashion statement??
The answer to youur question Gordon is yes. That is not the reason just-curios started this thread though. Pro 18:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly:
Friendly discussion can take place as long as everyone tries to keep it friendly.
I was a christian for a good many years. I never believed in hell. The term is used too frequently on this site for my comfort and I was wondering if those who believe in it so firmly understood just how horrible it is.
I was raised in a very strong Presbyterian environment here in Scotland. It was tough as a child - Sunday School, Boys' Brigade, etc, etc. (Probably the equivalent of military school in the USA! ) Both sides of my family were very strict Presbyterian - except for one person: my Dad. My Dad was the only one of my family who let me down with lies, after lies, after lies. I never even heard from him for many years when I was growing up.
I still love my Dad very much and he is very ill in the foreign country where he lives now. Incredibly, his family now are Roman Catholic and he respects that even stricter brand of Christianity (without embracing it) more than his own formal upbringing.
Life can bring many changes and Heaven and Hell both remain a part of it for many people.
Look in to your own heart and determine what you believe - not what science, technology or peer pressure tells you to believe and you can know at least your own inner peace and satisfaction.
Good luck with it...
Its not new and its very fashionable in this forum
Thank you for your post. It reminds me of how important it is as a Christian that we reach as many people as we can while there's still time. How sad that so many people are dying without the simple act of accepting Christ as their personal Savior... God, who loves us does not wish for us to go to hell.. that's why He sent His son.. why He made a way that we could escape hell. Unfortunately we get so caught up in thinking we can do anything on our own... be good, be righteous, that we neglect the awesome gift that God gave us; eternal life and peace.
I understand your point, but a large number of people within the statistics are part of other faith structures. They may never see your side of the debate. They are good people. It doesn't bother you that you see them as bound for hell?
Am I bothered that they are going to hell... absolutely... I read your post to my family and we took a collective deep breath. Christians are definitely bothered that others are going to hell. We should be bothered more. We should be bothered enough to be telling everyone that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life...
If I knew you had an incurable disease. That you were dying.. and I knew you were dying. My knowledge of it wouldn't change anything, except to allow me to pray for you and comfort you. I couldn't feel bad about knowing that you were dying... I could only feel bad that you were dying.
And if I knew that you could be cured. If I knew that there was a solution to your disease, I know I would tell you. I would call you incessantly and beg you to listen to me.
Unfortunately, it's easy as Christians to become afraid of offending others... and we don't tell people as often as we should that we know the cure for their disease... we know the solution to life everlasting. God help us and forgive us for not seeing the urgency of the matter.
Thank you for bringing to my mind how absolutely vital it is that we share the good news of Jesus Christ.
Here's something for your family to read.
Whether you believe a person is going to hell or not is none of your business as that is a decision they have made. And, they are well aware of your god and the salvation they can attain, if that's what they really want to do.
However, if you're going to be bothered so much that you are compelled to tell everyone what they already know only shows you do not respect people and the decisions they have made and that your interference is only self-serving, that it is for you and not for them.
Take a collective deep breath, now.
Man, I'm glad you posted that. When I read their post I cringed because I thought I might have created another monster. I was scared to post anything back. Hopefully they'll read your post and decide not to use my question as a reason to head out to spread their 'truth'.
Oh c'mon jc, you love the contraversy
I actually agree with Beezle for the most part
It is between God and Individual.
No. Not always. I'd honestly prefer less heated debate than appears to be the norm here. But, on points such as this one the controversy, no matter how civil, disturbs me deeply. I like to think of everyone as good people, even if sometimes they do bad things. You, or I, have no idea what motivates the actions of another. Sometimes what is perceived as wrong in another is simply my wrong perception.
Anyway, I'm glad you agree on the point. If we all agreed everyone had the right to make their own decisions, and then assumed whatever any of our ends might turn out to be was fair and equitable; there'd probably be no reason for anyone to bring up this subject.
Firstly, I am sure that most open-minded Christians would agree that we are not so hardhearted. I for one, accept the possibility that other religions may be included in this "going to heaven" scenario.
I think that many people from other religions would be upset to hear your take on this philosophy. People of other religions also have their "own" holy place that they go when they die, so your statistic may be a little off on the people who are getting a fiery descent.
Also, there are many forms of Christianity, from conservative to liberal. To lump them all into one category isn't easy. Christians are various in their philosophies and not all of them believe that their religion is the true religion, although their are some out there.
Wow, I had no idea that many people died a year, interesting statistics. I really don't think that people who believe in a literal heaven and hell have thought it through at all. I mean even if they make it into Heaven some of their closest family and friends would not, which means they'd spend eternity bowing to a deity who is currently torturing their loved-ones for eternity. I don't believe in God but even if I did I couldn't bear to bow down to such a torturous and evil being... besides that Hell is where the cool people would go anyway
If, indeed, it were my belief in a literal hell that sent people there then yes, I would be horrified. Instead it is a disbelief on a loving God whose Son came and died for our sins that causes people to go to hell. While it still horrifies me I can do nothing to change it except make certain they know the truth.
You cna text me, tweet me or e-mail me downstairs... I have the entire went wing reserved. I will either be still trying to write a decent story or making drinks at the bar. see you there!
Hmm. Sounds like you had one too many of those drinks in the bar.
No just did not spell a few words correctly. Assuming things without fact causes trouble
Oh. I didn't see your other post. Gotcha. You're funny.
Now you know, breaking out statistics does nothing but create confusion for some. ...I would have to say...I am not killing anyone, except for to sole purpose of protecting my family and/or defending my freedoms. And, even that don't make it right or even justified, it only makes for my continued survival.
Well within your rights. I read something once where the rabbis ruled that if there were two guys in the desert with only enough water for one, a person was justified in taking the water for himself; thereby ensuring the death of his companion. They said no law should force you to put your own life in jeapordy, or feel guilty by protecting yourself. I found it interesting, but realistic. Maybe the subject of hell falls in that category. Damn the torpedos, each man for himself.
I thought this was a trick question for sure...
surely you wouldn't be admitted to heaven after killing anyone,huh?
Well, according to some, sure. As long as you repented. That wasn't really the point though. I just don't think people take the time to think about what the idea of hell really boils down to. I can see some ancient isolated village believing something like this. It probably meant one or two people who bucked the collective system over the years got a crappy send off and no one felt bad about the belief.
But, thinking billions of people are bound for hell because of a difference in philosophy seems bizarre to me. I hope people will stop and think about what a horribly unkind way it is to think.
Excuse me? Am I defending the Pearly Gates themselves? Or just participating in a general slaughter just for the fun of it? Seems that with one, you get the up elevator, and with the other...not so much. Somebody drop you on your head? What kind of a janky question is this? Seriously, you need to talk to your min...no scratch that, they never help anybody! Hey, I know, just walk away slowly, maybe they won't notice you asked this question and put it up for serious debate. I don't kill anyone. God kills'em. If he didn't want 'em dead...well, they just wouldn't die. If they die...he wanted them dead. Get it?
Check Genesis. That is where the creatin' got done. Where in hell is hell? Do you see it? I don't. But I do see him saying that all creation is good. Of course, that is totally his opinion, and I'm sure that if I were God, I'd be a bit proud of what I had acheived. What about God's little brother. What was left for him to do? Overacheiving big brother...probably had esteem issues, poor guy.
Actually, I do get it. Its a horrible philosophy that I found to be a horrible philosophy when I associated with Christianity. I always said, if I died and found out this was correct I'd recant my faith before I walked through the gates because it is insanity. To believe that good people go to 'hell' and bad people get in 'heaven' because of a difference in philosophy is madness.
I apologize if the question offends you, but I am curious if those who believe in this have taken the time to think about it past their personal gain.
Not offended. Just amazed at the size a your cajones. Most people don't even know if they could kill, and some who think they could, never have. Could you pull the trigger and take a life? Watchit that's a trick question. Unless you have, the only answer that you can honestly give is "I'm not sure." Besides, define "GOD"
Your question had me stumped for a sec..lol...But no one realy knows who is going to heavenor hell except God Himself cuz the final judgement is with Him, in Islam we know that people of all faiths make it into heaven because we are taught that God judges each individual by their intentions and since we cant judge a persons intentions God is the only one who can make that final call.
Genesis trumps Koran! Just kidding. I'm very ireverent. I sincerely apologize to the prophet and Allah. Seriously
Justcurious. It doesn't seem to me that that name fits you. You aren't curious. You had your mind made up, by your own admission, long ago. So...you must have an ulterior motive...an AGENDA. Are you proseletyzing on the hub? Naughty. Misrepresentation. Hmmm. Not so virtuous.
My agenda is primarily to see if those who talk this game have thought about it. If they haven't, why not? If they have, what in the world are they thinking?
It is not within my ability to change the mind of others; but I would love to understand their minds.
That was always my philosophy too. There are good people all over the world, of all beliefs and lack thereof. We can all do little more than the best we can with the knowledge we have.
The bible commands you to kill so it should be fine.
Excuse me. Who was being addressed? Is this Old T or New T. It says to kill witches. Never met a real one, only posers. But, I can also choose not to kill. Besides, how would you know what God says to me or anyone else? I think you are fixated on a single facet. Step back and veiw them all at once, like a diamond.
"I thought this was a trick question for sure..."
Yeah, I thought so too.
Or perhaps a hypothetical one, like, "Say there are 10 people trying to stop you from getting into Heaven, and the only way to get past them-and get onto Heaven-is to kill them. Would you do it? What if it were 20 people? A hundred?"
Just for the record, not one single person has to go there. Everyone gets a chance to come to God. Many write about how God destroyed the wicked in the flood. God knoew their hearts. It is also written that they were evil continually. Never a good thought or idea. Never trying to hlep someone who needed help. Such a sad state to be in.
I wrote a hub relating to just this topic, entitled "Hell: The population of Hell."
According to my calculations, almost all people who have ever lived have gone or are going to hell. We're talking 95% or more. Including such "awful" people as Gandhi, Einstein and Edison.
What a beautiful and joyous religion.
If they didnt want anything to do with God-why would they want to go to heaven?
Sounds like some people just want to point blame ,instead of changing their thinking.
Most of them did want something to do with God. If they are Catholic, for example, and the real religion is, say, Baptism, then they are going to hell, despite their best efforts.
And regarding those that don't believe in God (which is practically none, historically speaking): Hell is a punishment. The Bible and Christian doctrine make that quite clear. It is a punishment for being bad, created by God, not man.
You can rationalize it all you want, but at the end of the day you must square with a religion that claims that Hitler and Gandhi have the same fate.
God has already said Works alone will not get you into the Kingdom of heaven. (Or any of the other religious trappings).
Who are you, or I, for that matter to say who will be there, and who wont be.
God will judge,period.
We can only be accountable for ourselves in the end.
We will all stand before God individually ,not with some church label on our heads, or a list of accolades or credit score.
Its good coffee chat to discuss and analyse ,but at the end of the day Jesus asks the individual the same thing he asked all those years ago:
"Who do you ,say I am"
Ok, so you're going back on what you said.
"Who are you, or I, for that matter to say who will be there, and who wont be."
Who are we? We are people who have studied God's word. If that's not enough, then there isn't much sense in believing in him anyway, is there? In the end, it's his call, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Here's an article on a good, Christian man's discomfort with the notion of hell.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110324/ap_ … l_hell__no
From the article:
Bell, the pastor of the 10,000-member Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., lays out the premise of his book while the video cuts away to an artist's hand mixing oil paints and pastels and applying them to a blank canvas.
He describes going to a Christian art show where one of the pieces featured a quote by Mohandas Gandhi. Someone attached a note saying: "Reality check: He's in hell."
"Gandhi's in hell? He is? And someone knows this for sure?" Bell asks in the video.
In the book, Bell criticizes the belief that a select number of Christians will spend eternity in the bliss of heaven while everyone else is tormented forever in hell.
No,youre misquoting me.
You implied who was going to Heaven? (Hitler and not Ghandi)?
My response was along the lines of ,We dont decide,God does.
So no Im not going back on anything.
Okay... so then you do believe that Gandhi is in hell. That is your religion, your belief system. You're either in or out, right?
I never said that "we decide." But we do decide what to believe. If you want to give your life to that kind of a belief system, that's your business. I think it's a tragic thing to believe.
A man who liberated millions and a man who slaughtered millions wind up in the same place, because "works are not enough." Even really, really big works.
You must square your conscience with this belief.
You assume too much,and insist in speaking like you 'know' something for certainty.
About me ,about Ghandi and about God. You are entitled to your opinion ,but Im not going to argue with you.
Notes you didnt answer Jesus's question either.
If you think I mischaracterized something, then you need to explain to me what you believe. When I indicated we can know that certain people are going to hell, you disagreed with that. Then when I said that we can't know, and it's all up to God in the end, you disagreed with that. So which is it?
Do we at least have a basic idea of who goes to hell, or don't we?
If we do, then we can say that a given person will go or will not go to hell. If we do not, then we can't say that. If we do not, we also can't follow Christianity, because Christianity claims that we can know.
In terms of Gandhi, he was a devout Hindu, who made an incredibly positive impact on the lives of millions of people. What more needs to be said about him? For the purpose of this discussion, that's all we need--we know his belief (Hindu), and we know his life and works (peaceful protests, anti-colonialism, etc).
"Notes you didnt answer Jesus's question either."
Your grammar is flawed here so I don't quite understand what you're saying. But I guess you're saying that I didn't answer "Jesus' question." What question? I wasn't aware that Jesus asked me a question. Are you saying that you posed a question to me that I didn't answer?
If you are referring to this ["Who do you say I am"] this was just your argument that God makes the final decision. Which I never disagreed with.
Pointing out flawed grammar denotes questionable character.
One who is sure of themselves doesn't need to point such out in a discussion.
I think it was quite childish to attempt to demean her over something so silly.
Would you like me to be petty and remind you that the question marks go at the end of a phrase or sentence as they are a punctuation character?
You also forgot to capitalise Hell in at least two of your posts, which is a place. Otherwise known as a proper noun. Hence, more improper grammar.
"...then they are going to hell..."
"...so then you do believe that Gandhi is in hell."
Yes. Maybe now you see how petty that was of you to do.
I know you'll be upset but that's ok.
I just wanted you to know.. Respectfully.
Actually Vector, pointing out problems in punctuation fall into the same category as correcting grammar and you did that on another thread, so whatever criticism you just used on that point would go for you to.
Thank you for pointing that out.
I do sincerely apologise if I did so.
That was certainly disrespectful of me if I done so.
I would like to be quoted with the accusations as you note I have done please..
I'm not quoting. It was a post of yours to Bailey Bear on the thread you started about everybody picking on christians. And you also called kess and I out on the carpet on a thread over capitalization. I am certainly not concerned snout your comments to me. Water off a duck's back. Just thought I'd point out it wasn't an isolated social faux pas.
If you don't remember your own posts I shouldn't be responsible for refreshing your memory, but I only did it since you were chastising someone else. Sorry.
"I'm not quoting."
Then don't complain or point fingers.
You CHOSE to point it out. YOU should be responsible enough to back up what you claim.
I cannot follow you everywhere or recall hundreds of posts on a whim.
I also said I apologise if the case was such.
And yet, you refuse to quote anything. If you cannot quote, do not point fingers without proof.
Actually I'm more amused than upset. I didn't intend to demean her, I was being honest, I really didn't understand what she was saying. If I really wanted to be a grammar nazi, trust me, I could point out a lot more than that! But I don't think mistakes like that are a big deal, until they impede understanding.
It was a substantive question because I did not understand what she was trying to say.
Talk about much ado about nothing, lol.
I wasn't attempting to make it a big deal.
I also don't see how the extra s could throw you off if you're proficient with grammar.
I'm saying she may not mind you pointing it out. But I know of some people on the forums who are very kind and sensitive.
And they may not be proficient with grammar, or spelling even. But that isn't relevant to the subject being discussed.
I personally have found myself guilty of such, and was ashamed.
It can affect people, who aren't hard hearted, especially kind women who are the nurturing type.
I'm not judging you. I said it is petty to do, and that means by you, me, or anyone else on the threads.
I would just rather the heat thrown on me than on some people who I know try to bring peace to the forums quite often.
You are a very strong debater no doubt.
Whatever. It's not petty if I don't understand what the heck she's saying or referring to, lol!
Personally I'm not ashamed of anything I've ever written in these pages.
Ok, so she's a nice person. Great, I'm sure she is. We're discussing big ideas here. She's the one who challenged me originally.
Aww its nice when people discuss things dont ya think
Its the week-end and I do my best to pick up the thread ,and answer or make statements as best as I can focus.
I do think you were able to get the gist of my post however.
I will scroll back and rectify or catch up. If not please accept me as being imperfect.
Gods not finished with me yet
Vector thankyou for being quite the gentleman and coming to my rescue,truly what a neat brother in Christ !
But you were the one that bought it up.
My grammar is not the best ,puts my hand in the air-guilty as charged.
Its Marks fault. he dun it wurs n me dun it.
I also don't do spell check in the forum ,enough.
I respect Ghandi,no doubt about that for me. Will he be in Heaven,I don't know.
Honestly I dont know who is going to be there!
I trust the host to work it all out.
Gosh I just want to make sure Im going to be there, dont you?
My point in refering you to the question Jesus asked was to focus in on the personal relationship that Christ wants with everyone, and not the impersonal view that you seem to present.
Personally I find that more exciting than analysing who made the list and who didnt.
I was just trying to understand what you wrote... that's all folks. No ulterior motive. Whatever. I guess I'm a little thicker-skinned after being called a "moron" and some other colorful language by some lunatic in another forum. Lol, you gotta laugh at this stuff sometimes.
Anyway, I never said it was an "impersonal" process. Every individual gets a reward or a punishment, personally. I don't know where you got the idea that I thought it was impersonal.
"Honestly I dont know who is going to be there!"
Therefore you don't know what God is going to do. Right? Right.
Therefore you don't know what God wants. Because if you did know what God wants, then you could predict who will get into heaven.
But since you don't know who is going to heaven, you don't know what God wants.
Now, if you don't know what God wants, then how can you dedicate your life to God?
No problem -all is forgiven Im kiddin ya
..But you are implying that God is impersonal?
I know God will be fair and just and show mercy.
Who God decides ,no I do not know. (But I have a good idea ,based on his commandments)
It is not my role to make that judgement.
My role is to love everyone
Your last sentence is an assumption on your part.
there are judgments to be made. 2 of them.
the white throne judgment
the judgment seat of christ
nobody goes anywhere until these happen.
catholicism built the people go to hell theory and most of christendom parrots it although the bible says differently.
Who are we? We are people who have studied God's word. If that's not enough, then there isn't much sense in believing in him anyway, is there? In the end, it's his call, and there's nothing you can do about it.
Studying Gods word is a good thing ,but we will never completely know the mind of God (yet) in all things. This would be one of them.
Another words God looks at the heart. Man tends to look at achievements and other outward talents etc.
In the end, it's his call, and there's nothing you can do about it.
It always was Gods call. There is always something we can do about OUR outcome.
So can a person go to heaven even if they don't believe in Jesus Christ, as long as they have a good heart?
Good works is always acknowledged and advised BUT nothing we can do of ourselves will earn us our way into Heaven
Romans 10:9-10: "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
Its not fame ,or money or intellgience or good works that God wants
It is our hearts He asks for.
Being a nice person is a pretty good indication of a person's heart. But then again, my conception of a "good heart" and your conception are very different.
In your worldview, a "good heart" means believing in one's heart in Jesus' resurrection--simply *believing* a historical event.
In my worldview, a "good heart" means being a loving, kind and happy person. Beliefs about historical events have nothing to do with it. Too bad so many loving, kind people who happen to not accept your version of history are going to hell. Forever.
The bottom line is exactly what I said at the very top: at the end of the day you must square your conscience with a religion that claims that Hitler and Gandhi have the same eternal fate.
I don't have to worry about this, because I don't believe it. You do. That's a pretty heavy burden.
I didn't write the book. (bible)
But I read it, and I accepted it.
That's the bottom line (IMO).
I dont have the burden of the whole world on my shoulders ,if I have a 'mission field' it is for the people I can have an affect on ,friends family neighbours etc.
Not in a preachy way (I save that for you guys) but in a hands on way.
If it doesnt make sense to you ,imagine how I feel. Confused that presented with an alternative end ,why people wouldn't accept the offer that Christ offers.
Jesus said it would be because of pride. I tend to agree.
Incidently why do you think Ghandi won't be in heaven?
I think Mark likes you.
He's following your comments, and posting, where he leaves all the others, (by and large).
Beware sister, he's chipping away at you, to try to get you to trip up, so he can catch you out. The pointing finger, judgmental comments and ridicule will surely follow.
I'll be prayin' for ya.
No dj. I really do not like people who say one thing and do another. I don't think your imaginary friend is supposed to have liked them either. Something to do with morals - an alien concept for you I gather.
But - no matter. As long as you are still fighting and arguing and pointing the finger at people who don't believe the stuff you believe - all is good. That is what Jesus tole ya ter do innit? Little wonder your religion causes so much division.
IS 10 closer to 38,000 than 44,000?
You need to turn your spell checker on.
It really diminishes your high intellect. I doubt you are a shining example to other intelligent Atheists with your redneck way of spelling.
That kinda makes you more of a hypocrite than me. You say one thing, and do another.
Is that what education, logic and reason does to people?
I think I just might stay "ignorant". TY.
Not really dj. I am making fun of the nonsense you speak. See how that is not hypocritical at all? Pretty consistent actually.
You keep telling me you are not interested in logic and reason because your imaginary friend exists outside of those and you know something I don't know.
How else am I expected to communicate with you?
No wonder your religion has caused so many fights.
Of course Mark likes me ,he loves all Christians. He just hates their sin
Love them prayers Dj
In your worldview, a "good heart" means believing in one's heart in Jesus' resurrection--simply *believing* a historical event.
No you are minimizing the spiritual connetation,Believing means to accept Jesus as Lord of your life, a little more than just acknowledging an historical event.
Did I say you wrote the Bible? LOL.
Yes, you accept the notion that millions of decent, loving people go to hell (among other notions, of course). It is a consequence of your beliefs.
Oh, no preaching here. Just asking questions, which few people seem to be willing or able to answer.
Pride doesn't motivate my skepticism. The irrationality of Christianity does. The same is true for most nonbelievers.
"Incidently why do you think Ghandi won't be in heaven?"
I guess you have completely missed everything I've said, lol.
Why do I think Gandhi won't be in heaven? Because he did not accept Jesus as Lord. That's why.
See thats what Ive been saying all along.
You assume too many things.
I'm not assuming anything. If what YOU said is true, then Gandhi is in hell. I am deriving this whole thing from your own beliefs! LOL! Why can't you see that?
Let me try to clarify this even more:
"So can a person go to heaven even if they don't believe in Jesus Christ, as long as they have a good heart?"
And you answered:
"No,not according to Gods word-... It is our hearts He asks for."
Fact: Gandhi did not believe in Jesus as Lord in his heart.
THEREFORE: It follows that he is not going to heaven. If he doesn't go to heaven, he goes to hell.
It's really quite simple. In fact that article I posted earlier indicated as much.
Why on earth do you say I am assuming something?
I am deriving this entire conclusion from what you said yourself.
Told you. LOL
Doesn't know what she said from one minute to the next and constantly contradicts her self. She doesn't want to be in heaven with the pedophiles and at the same time thinks they will be going to heaven if they repented.
Completely brain washed. Living proof that religion rots your brain.
So - you can behave however you like and you still get the free pass? That is why so many priests rape children I guess. I mean - if nothing you do gets you into heaven - that means nothing you do gets you into hell. Because these are the only 2 options unless you have a constant "waiting room," as well.
The only unforgivable sin is not believing - right?
See how your beliefs make no sense and do not create "moral" people?
I am starting to think you are a little unstable, now Mark.
You are loosing your grip on reality, it seems.
I guess when you are self righteous, you can do and say whatever you want.
You ARE a righteous Atheist, after all. You told me so.
It still amazes me. Evolution IS correct, according to you. BUT, morality is not left to the individual, but an outsider. YOU. So, now you can judge me and others my the shifting sands of your own moral code.
If that's atheisim, I'm glad to not be part of it.
See how much conflict your atheistic dogma can cause?
Furthermore, you edit your post changing the whole reply to suit yourself.
No - we define our own morality dj. No dogma at all. Sorry you think deciding to be moral is not a good thing.
Did not address what I said again huh? Probably because it makes sense.
See how your beliefs make no sense and - as kiwi says - nothing you do will get you into heaven or hell - so you can behave how you want.
This is why your religion causes so many fights.
Since the terror stems from the belief that people go to hell to be in torment forever and ever, I can only answer this question from a different viewpoint.
Intro: Hell is not where the spiritual body resides, tormented in firey flames forever and ever. You can thank catholicism for that bit of terrorism.
Belief: God will destroy, cause to perish and utterly consume the soul that is deemed unworthy to life eternal. Snuff it like a candle. I am not saying that this will happen immediately, i don't see that. There may be a period or age of time, perhaps until all the judging is over, where the souls cast into the lake of fire (the second death) will have to wait to be expunged, during this time there may well be, torment (knowing that you blew it) but inevitably, a blotting out or destruction or if you like, unmaking occurs.
Answer to question: It is not QUANTITY that matters to God but QUALITY.
Lets not forget about abortion! 1.75 million abortions in the USA alone each year! That's a lot of free rides to heaven or however you want to look at it.
I do not hold the believe that aborted babies go to Heaven, or for anywhere for that matter. I believe that their souls go into a stasis, in-between state of static existence. (Waiting for the next fetus to inhabit and fulfill a life), I think that it would be unfair to the soul not to live a full life that it deserves.
Interesting. The "period or age of time... will have to wait to be expunged" would be like a Green Room before going in front of the cameras or a Dentists Office waiting room before the root canal, a place one must be for a determinate amount of time where the only thing they can do is pause and reflect before the ultimate event itself occurs. How very fitting a means to an ultimate end.
And, this ingenious and cleverly contrived bit of torment originates from the very entity one would have to spend a lifetime serving and obeying and then be alongside for the rest of eternity?
"There may be a period or age of time" what part of this once again beely did you not understand??? Must i define the word may for you??
sound of the buzzer
keep your inferences to yourself please.
Oh, I see, in other words, you DID want me to point out it was wild speculation of fantasy on your part based on a religious belief? Gotcha.
It's hard not to notice obsessive compulsive behavior, especially when it's intentionally being presented over and over again.
"may well be, torment (knowing that you blew it)"
this is not firey torture, beely, but a different kind that resides on a level of one realizing THAT THEY BLEW IT.
MISCOMPREHENSION OF SENTENCES SEEMS TO BE COMMON AMONG UNBELIEVERS. (perhaps this is the problem, not that the scriptures are unbelievable to everyone but just a few who cannot understand what is written in front of them in english. Now add parables, similies, paraboles, hyperboles, metaphors, Anthropomorphisms etc.... no wonder they are so confused.. heres an excellent page describing how to understand the bible for all those out there [and you know who you are ] who always get things wrong.)
hope this helps
have a nice day
Another comical joke post from a believer. Nothing new.
I see you misinterpreted that post.
Nothing new from you
You might have misunderstood cagsil. I don't think he was saying it was a humorous post..I think he was saying it was a joke of a post, kind of like it was inane. I could be wrong.
i did not misunderstand cags post. It is in line with ALL his other posts.
short, uninformative, nonbiblical and not new, at least nothing new that isn't a comical joke of a post from an unbeliever.
If you were actually informed, you might just scare yourself. Enough said on that.
As for what I meant, yes- the post was a joke, no different than any other BS assumptive, misguided and foolish believer. It's about all that can be mustard by any believer.
No where near enough said on that
how about you try to show me where i am uninformed instead of mooing like a cowple (sheeple.. hehe cowple lol)
mustEred not mustard... lol or am in uninformed about that also.
You can talk all you want but I'd like to see some evidence to back up your moo.
Quote from your homepage:
"As you can see, I have left out Religion as a topic. If you are of a religious view, then you'll most likely dismiss anything you read."
Nice to know you understand up front how not biblical your religious writings would be. Christians know what is biblical, for the most part, and you seem to have ruled that out. So comments made to me about my scaring myself are moot. Maybe i scare you, in which case do not confuse Gods word for devilry.
so why come in here and diss others if you know your own stuff would be dissed.
have a nice day
and his cat has bad breath too! Boy you sure told him!
How did your cat get into the conversation???
I was talking about Cag's cat!
just saying about my cat.
i noted the context
Ignorance is truly blissful for the believer who fails to learn and accept what it learns. Like I said before, believers are blinded by themselves.
The fact that you think my ego is in my way is a BS, just so you can make yourself feel better about yourself. I don't think you have the ability to see beyond yourself and that is the biggest mistake you usually make.
So, it's not a surprise.
That might be the problem. If you think everything must be biblical, you're right. Cags thinks for himself. Outside of your little box.
I would think you would, at the least, consider that since you believe God made us, he included a brain for a reason. A lot of us use them in the exact manner I believed we were supposed to, when I believed in Christianity.
There is nothing outside of the box. The box is larger than we think but the 'much dreaded' context well defines the edges of the box.
You can see many of the goings on, outside of the box and people stumble over that very thing. Thinking for oneself is great BUT it is not a license to just make up ones mind about things, one of them being what the meaning of the gospel of jesus christ is. The bible warns of mans imagination and that it can lead astray. The bible is written in such a way as to be difficult to grasp because God wants us to lean on him, even for such a simple thing as understanding His Word. If people do not lean on God for understanding, we well know, anything can happen... all of a sudden there are people worshiping angels and thinking God is an alien or that there is no repercussion for wrongdoing and that everyone goes to heaven and all of a sudden God becomes a self help course.
In the bible are the only guidelines for life eternal. Mans way are only the guidelines to a life here.
So, if one follows that line of logic, they will make the conscious decision not to want to learn things if they suspect that learning those things may very well lead to making up ones own mind.
Of course, in pointing out the obvious, the very process of thinking is the means to an end result of making up ones own mind about things.
Hence, the very process of thinking should be avoided at all times.
The imagination can also lead men to solving great problems, helping them to grasp concepts they might not be able to readily replicate in reality, for one reason or another.
A good example of this is how Einstein imagined a man in an elevator being accelerated through space, thus helping him formulate his gravity theory.
Using the imagination to contrive diabolical plots is one thing, but using it to help others is yet another, not to be easily dismissed or go unmentioned.
Notice the illogical reasoning for making the bible difficult to understand due to the obvious results we observe from that lack of understanding.
If we were to analyze the Christian world, we find hundreds and hundreds of various sects with varying and often opposed beliefs, and although they claim to all have the basic belief in Jesus and his teachings, they cannot reconcile an understanding of those teachings and the bible in it's entirety.
The decision and process for making the bible difficult to understand was entirely successful, although the intent of leaning on god for clarity and understanding was not achieved.
Then, why isn't life the way you describe?
People are born and go through a growth and learning period about the world around them. The same should abide in the afterlife, that if and when we arrive there, we can begin another learning process to understand that realm.
In the meantime though, let's forget about religions and gods and talk about them in the afterlife and leave mankind to help itself here on earth. Deal?
I don't associate with Christianity anymore simply because I believe they have made up their minds as to what the meaning of the gospel of Jesus is, in direct violation to the obvious. I do not agree with your interpretation. Plain and simple. I think Jesus was pretty clear and succinct in what he said. If you want to add to the meaning, feel free. If you want to follow others who have added to it. Feel free. I will take the words of Jesus at face value and determine their worth.
Yes. This is clearly shown by the imaginitive posts of many christians. God sends earthquakes, tidal waves and hurricanes. God answers each and every prayer. God causes suffering to test our faith and punish the sinners. These are but a few of the imaginitive things I hear.
I realize your preacher has told you this. I understand why. But I can assure you, the words of Jesus are simple and the meaning is easy to see.
I think a fairer statement would have been you believe that if people don't lean on organized religion to tell them what to think, anything can happen. I assure you, independent thought would do nothing but good. I wish every christian would take the time to think for themselves.
I honestly doubt any reward you may think lies beyond this life could be attained by bashing others over the head with a faulty interpretation of a book.
That should be the correct approach of Christians; they undermine what Jesus did and said and follow the misleading churches of 32000 plus denominations.
Of course, the problems with other religions should be addressed as well.
Man needs reformation, yes; that is why the Second Coming of Jesus has taken place in the form of the Promised Messiah 1835-1908, to reform all Religions on Truth.
Of course. I see clearly now.
32,000 churches mislead people.
If we listen to paarsurrey, he is the one and only true preacher that we must believe. His wisdom will fix everything wrong with us Christians.
So, where do I start? Give me a clue!
in one sentence you say forget what the church says and then you say that everybody should interpret the bible for themselves and then you diss new thoughts about stuff.
Sounds like you are unsure of the correct process yourself.
The correct process is independent thought. You have a brain. Use it. Find the truth that's meant for you. Accept the fact that others won't see things exactly the same way you do and embrace the differences, when those differences don't attempt to infringe on the life, liberty or pursuit of hapiness of another. Infringing on the hapiness of another is the problem I have with organized religion. When anyone is told hell of any type awaits them that infringes on them.
That's basically about it for what I believe. Capice?
Nope, Stacie, no trick question. It's been around, worded differently, by many people--most don't bring it up because they don't want to hear what's out there. just_curious, I feel your pain, and Mr. Hamilton (forgot 1st name, sorry!), feel yours, too. AE caught me with her "sigh" at the end of her comment. That is what we all feel because of the suffering in this world. I have seriously studied (including using diaglots and whatever other Bible translations/commentaries, etc., using original language) a great deal, and I'm no expert, still. Yes, there are probably as many beliefs as numbers! The "Christian" religions are so divided, it's unbelievable: I think the last I heard there were over 350 different sects of Baptists, alone! Don't remember the verse and am not going to look it up, but there is one that refers to those who lead (not sure of wording--referring to 'preachers', etc.) as "tickling the ears of those listening," or, in other words, saying what people want to hear. So many people have grown up and been indoctrinated into the belief of only heaven and hell (w/the exception of those who believe in the rapture, I guess), that I personally think they've missed one major factor: where was man created to live in the first place? Doesn't it seem logical that if you built a gorgeous home, or even a neat ant farm! (animal lover, me), and rats came in, you would get rid of the rats (or the anteater if one got in your ant farm?). Can't help it, I really love flesh and blood, and I love this earth, and I can't believe that when I die I'll go to either heaven or hell. Personally, I don't believe in an immortal soul, on which that belief must be based. I belief death is simply not being, that the soul is the life-force, itself (Eccl. and other scripts) and I believe that God, Yahweh, Jah, whoever you want to call him, can and will resurrect anyone He chooses (all of us, perhaps--yes, I think He is capable of forgiving murderers--he reads hearts--we read newspapers). That could be to heaven or the earth. Hell? The word translated into hell literally means the grave. Some translations speak of Jesus being in hell! The word gehenna referred to a literal place outside the city of Jerusalem I believe where refuse, criminals, etc. were burned. Somewhere down the line the words became confused. That's my personal take. Curiously, a few weeks ago I saw and shadowed interview (several) with ministers of our "Christian" religions who said they were now atheists! (either 26% or 36%--a study out of Stanford, I think). I know I've brought more flame to the fire, but I can't keep my mouth shut--never could. I like the old lady I met years ago who said she quit going to church because she got sick and tired of listening to the preacher talk about a god of hell and damnation. "I watch my cats/dogs/squirrels/birds: don't tell me God doesn't have a sense of humor," she said. "I like to think of him as a god who sings in the shower!" Love it. Need Christ to "kick ass." Believe he will--isn't the Devil pretty much running things right now? I'm saying no more, and will follow but not respond any more. Sorry, everybody. Gotta "stand up and be counted," --who said that? Whoever, thanks. And thanks for the sigh, AE!
Please, remember, everybody, I'm not preaching, etc. I'm answering for me for my own personal beliefs and in a lengthy (sorry) way, answering personally, yes, I have thought about it, and I, too, am saddened. World's in a mess, and we're all sick of it. Hope I lose ALL my followers¡ Peace to all of you.
Aaaargh! Missed "don't" - please don't everybody hate me and quit following 'cause I'm different! Gandhi said he wouldn't be a Christian (I am) because Christ didn't act like we do!
Who are we to judge other people. If we could only live by the Bible, those timeless articles about how God included mankind on His Plans, we will not be bothered by confusing philosophies anymore.
How Many People Would You Kill To Get Into Heaven?
The Truthful Religion is peaceful does not want that anybody should be killed for salvation or going into heaven.
Anybody who kills a human being except when one is attacked agressively to kill one; then one could fight in defence.
No self defense allowed.
How Many People Would You Kill To Get Into Heaven?
The Truthful Religion does not allow to kill any person intentionally:
[4:93] It does not become a believer to kill a believer unless it be by mistake. And he who kills a believer by mistake shall free a believing slave, and pay blood money to be handed over to his heirs, unless they remit it as charity. But if the person slain be of a people hostile to you, and be a believer, then the offender shall free a believing slave; and if he be of a people between whom and you is a pact, then the offender shall pay blood money to be handed over to his heirs, and free a believing slave. But whoso finds not one, then he shall fast for two consecutive months — a mercy from Allah. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.
[4:94] And whoso kills a believer intentionally, his reward shall be Hell wherein he shall abide. And Allah will be wroth with him and will curse him and will prepare for him a great punishment.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=93
If someboyd kills a person purposely instead of going to heaven the killer will go to hell in terms of the above.
You seem to be confused. I was responding to your statement about self defense and didn't realize you were islamic.
In this case, I need not quote the Qur'an because there are plenty needlessly violent passages in it, and rather have me quote them for your sake I suggest reading the darned thing before you quote it, if you have not yet already.
If you have, and believe it to be truth, then I must urge you to seek help immediately because no healthy human being should find the violent acts you'll find therein attractive by any means.
Islam is a religion of peace; yeah, sure.
It's true, It's chocka full of hate and threats as far as the eye can see.
Just like the bible's OT really.
Please don't mention many; just quote the one you think is the most violent in the Truthful Word Revealed.
I am sure that there is no violent verse in Truthful Word Revealed; instead there are plenty peaceful.
[5:28] And relate to them truly the story of the two sons of Adam, when they each offered an offering, and it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. The latter said, ‘I will surely kill thee.’ The former replied, ‘Allah accepts only from the righteous.
[5:29] ‘If thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I am not going to stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee. I do fear Allah, the Lord of the universe.
[5:30] ‘I wish that thou shouldst bear my sin as well as thy sin, and thus be among the inmates of the Fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong.’
[5:31] But his mind induced him to kill his brother, so he killed him and became one of the losers.
[5:32] Then Allah sent a raven which scratched in the ground, that He might show him how to hide the corpse of his brother. He said, ‘Woe is me! Am I not able to be even like this raven so that I may hide the corpse of my brother?’ And then he became regretful.
[5:33] On account of this, We prescribed for the children of Israel that whosoever killed a person — unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land — it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and whoso gave life to one, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind. And Our Messengers came to them with clear Signs, yet even after that, many of them commit excesses in the land.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=32
Please don't mention many; just quote the one you think is the most violent verse in the Truthful Word Revealed.
Alright, are you referring to the Qur'an? Because if you are would you do as such please? I don't have time to figure out what you mean.
Please quote just one verse from Qurah which you think is the most violent.
Well summing them all up is pretty difficult, albeit impossible, but I'll give it a shot with two quotations:
One of the many that dictates you kill the infidel: Qur'an (2:191-193)
And another that states the responsibility all muslims have; that "fighting is prescribed to you": Qur'an (2:216).
Clearly you've not yet read your 'holy' book closely if you still think it's full of fair tales and unicorns. Well, it does mention unicorns but that's besides the point.
The point is that you have a responsibility to won up to if you believe these things; and if you do, we have nothing more to talk about because I already know your intent is to cause bodily or psychological harm.
Thank you; that is all.
[2:191] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:192] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.
[2:193] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[2:194] And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.
2:195] The violation of a Sacred Month should be retaliated in the Sacred Month; and for all sacred things there is the law of retaliation. So, whoso transgresses against you, punish him for his transgression to the extent to which he has transgressed against you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=194
One could see that it is not general for the non-believers; it is for those Meccans who attacked Medina hundred of mile away outnumbered and well prepared . Can one defend oneself against the agressors?
The teaching is very reasonable and rational on all counts.
1. You entirely fail to acknowledge that these are words that are written on the foundation not of defense, but hate and prejudice. Do not quote these lines as if they have any value in the world today as they were intended for then; and even then they were needlessly violent.
2. Address my second quote as well in addition to your attempted answering the first.
Also, as I have said before, you are relying on a book being fact in order for your quote meanderings to make sense; in any case the Qur'an has been proven as historically inaccurate and morally outdated.
You like to speak of defending too, but what defending have you ever had to do? If I am not mistaken, the occurrence you speak of was many generations ago and therefore you should have no personal bond to it, beside historical ties. You're carrying a war on and on that should have been demolished years ago with all the violent passages in your blasted religion.
Islam is not a religion of peace, it's a religion of hatred, prejudice, discrimination and violence.
Many people, including you, have better standards than this 'god' character; grow up and try living the world according to your standards, not a book's.
No matter how much a watermellon wants to taste sweet to the mouth; it won't if it don't.
yes- the post was a joke, no different than any other BS assumptive, misguided and foolish believer. It's about all that can be mustard by any believer.
= = = =
Good to hear you say that you are no diferent than any other BS got it written on the calandar.
Hey Jerami, Believers are the ones that spread BS. Got it?
It has nothing to do with me. It was directed at Brother's post that was the joke, not my post. But, I figured it wouldn't take much for my post to be manipulated or twisted to fit something else.
You must be proud of yourself.
Religious beliefs are not worth discussing because all that happens is fighting... Hello middle east.
I have the entire left wing reserved downstairs. I will see a good majority there. Peace
For all those going downstairs, if you can't find me, when you hear the clip clop, hola Mrs. J. B. is in the house and please tell me your hub score has improved.. HAHA... Relax people.
can I pick the people that i am to kill?
If I go over the required minimum, will i be penalized?
If they are Hubbers, do I get bonus points?
Where the Hell IS heaven?In the sky?In your Head?Is it physical?Is it a state of mind?Has any living being been there?Religion is accepted in this world.Religious mystical experience is diagnosed and treated with medication.You can believe in any supreme being you like and that's OK,but if you meet him/her face to face...your going to the funny farm.
"Has any living being been there?"
Quite a few I know of, and probably hundreds more I don't.
However, to those ones (like you), hearing what they have to say would instantly be dismissed on grounds that only you will propose. Everything from dreaming to full blown halucination. If you were open to learn, you might consider it, but, your prejudices will keep you from the truth.
There is enough Heaven and Hell on Earth for everybody. Don't worry, guys, don't fight over it. There is time for everything. If you are alive, on Earth, worry about your life, not death. If you need Hell, go to Japan, to a mother who just lost her child as a result of radiation overdose. Go to Somali or Afganistan, you'll find plenty of Hell there too... You need Heaven? Win a lottery and Go to Frazer Valley, BC, Canada in Spring, or Cornwall, UK, or to Swish Alps when edelweiss blooms. Enjoy your life on Earth and keep it safe and clean.
hey i like your work you really a good writer keep it up for your good work
Q. How Many People Would You Kill To Get Into Heaven?
A. Just One...symbolically..."Die -to-Self": "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Galatians 2:20
There is no justification for a god who kills his own creation for whatever reason, and this reasoning is quite neurotic and just plain morally wrong..
"[2:192] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing."
Modern man is way ahead of this god.
The verses mention killing of the aggressors in the combat; not in peace times.
So this verse is OK by your god too is it?
"Sura 3:151 Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers for that they joined companions with Allah for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the fire; and evil is the home of the wrong-doers!"
[3:150] O ye who believe! if you obey those who have disbelieved, they will cause you to turn back on your heels, and you will become losers.
[3:151] Nay, Allah is your Protector, and He is the Best of helpers.
[3:152] We shall strike terror into the hearts of those that have disbelieved because they associate partners with Allah for which He has sent down no authority. Their abode is the Fire; and evil is the habitation of the wrongdoers.
[3:153] And Allah had surely made good to you His promise when you were slaying and destroying them by His leave, until, when you became lax and disagreed among yourselves concerning the order and you disobeyed after He had shown you that which you loved, He withdrew His help. Among you were those who desired the present world, and among you were those who desired the next. Then He turned you away from them, that He might try you — and He has surely pardoned you, and Allah is Gracious to the believers. —
[3:154] When you were running away and looked not back at anyone while the Messenger was calling out to you from your rear, then He gave you a sorrow in recompense for a sorrow, that you might not grieve for what escaped you, nor for what befell you. And Allah is well aware of what you do.
[3:155] Then, after the sorrow, He sent down peace on you — a slumber that overcame a party of you — while the other party was anxious concerning their own selves, thinking wrongly of Allah like unto the thought of ignorance. They said, ‘Is there for us any part in the government of affairs?’ Say, ‘All government belongs to Allah.’ They hide in their minds what they disclose not to thee. They say, ‘If we had any part in the government of affairs, we should not have been killed here.’ Say, ‘If you had remained in your homes, surely those on whom fighting had been enjoined would have gone forth to their deathbeds,’ that Allah might bring about His decree and that Allah might test what was in your breasts and that He might purge what was in your hearts. And Allah knows well what is in the minds;
[3:156] Those of you who turned their backs on the day when the two hosts met, surely it was Satan who sought to make them slip because of certain doings of theirs. But certainly Allah has already pardoned them. Verily, Allah is Most Forgiving, Forbearing.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=147
It is again about the Meccan non-believers who were in combat; they attacked Medina several hundred away aggressively out-numbered and well prepared; they attacked to eliminated Muhammad and his followers. Muhammad had a right to defend himself and his companions to co-exist.
Please read the verses; these are not generalized for every non-believer of every time.
The Creator-God did enter strike terror in the hearts of Meccan non-believers and when Muhammad responded their attacks they could not stand before Muhammad and his followers.
Very reasonable and rational teachings by any standards.
Hey paar. You might be amazed at how many standards don't call the teachings and sayings in the quran reasonable and rational. But, then again, you probably already know that.
Yes, I can see how you have been indoctrinated from the teaching of non-believers as evil wrongdoers and that our abode will be fire, for no more a reason that we don't accept Islam, and that Muslims will "strike terror in the hearts" as reasonable and rational. You attack non-believers constantly with exactly the same mindset your religion has taught you to accept.
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