Too bad Europe and America are straying far from their original roots. Why are we having so many problems? Secular humanism or any other anti-God philosophical system has no power to unify the core of a nation. They have to resort to the bayonet in the end. Totalitarianism usually sets in when a nation stops believing in God. It may take ten years, or fifty years, or one hundred years, but eventually a military state will uproot a Democracy that stops believing in God.
You preferred it back in the day huh? Bring back segregation!
Both Atheists and Christians practiced segregation. However, it took a Christian, Martin Luther King, to march against it.
So - America was not a Christian nation then? Make your mind up. LOLOLOL
In any case - how many atheists were there then?
See any correlation between the end of segregation and the rise of atheism?
What year did mandatory bible reading get taken out of the classroom?
Let me guess - these were not real Christians.
Do you know how many atheists were alive back then? How can you connect the stopping of mandatory Bible reading with the end of segregation? I actually think the civil rights marchers had a part in that. You make some big unsubstantiated claims.
Hang on a minute. Before you go around claiming that other people are making big unsubstantiated claims go and read back over you original post.
Totalitarianism sets in when a country doesn't believe in god.
No wonder we have so many problems - therefore insinuating that there are more problems now than before.
Secular and humanistic societies resort to the bayonet in the end.
This is rhubarb!
The 13 trillion dollar debt is not a problem? Our crime rate is not a problem? The burgeoning prison systems are not a problem? Our entitlement mentality is not a problem? The Christian ethic to serve one another has been lost.
I didn't wipe out any natives, steal land, and fill it with slaves. Hey, you paint this angelic picture of atheists; that they did not do anything wrong. Come off it! The atheistic regimes of Stalinist Russia, Maoist China, and Pol Pot killed millions of innocent individuals. What does this prove? Atheists have murdered and killed, too. Could it just be that branding yourself as an atheist or a Christian doesn't automatically make you a good person? Could it be that the Bible is right when it points out that we have a propensity to sin? Could it also mean that we are created in the image of God and have the ability to do good? I am just making the point that when you whittle the two belief systems down to its core you get two different results. Atheism or secular humanism is hollow and without hope. There is no compass, only confusion. Everyone is their own God. At the core of Christianity you have God and a standard set of absolutes that can give strength to a person and a nation.
I was agreeing with you until you said atheism was without hope. Maybe you need the idea of an afterlife and a God to give you hope, but I don't. As an atheist I find hope and inspiration in my fellow human beings and our future.
Not going to address the issue then? Just going to keep on pretending that the atrocities perpetuated by a "Christian nation" do not matter?
Your beliefs are nonsense - and as we have seen - do not produce people noticeably better than any other common or garden pedophile - do they? Where is the evidence that Christianity produces a better society or person?
This is why your religion causes so many wars and conflicts.
Could it be that if we did not believe nonsense - we might actually develop a better society -as we are doing. As religion wanes - society improves.
Is society really improving? The only person not addressing the issues and not facing reality is you. A Godless society is producing catastrophe.
And yet the planet teams with peaceful godless societies. So I guess somehow the suggestion is that the US will be destroyed by atheism even though other countries weren't. But I don't know why that would be.
But it isn't a godless society is it?
Most of the world buy this bronze aged rubbish because they are indoctrinated into it.
Most of society produces all the things that are wrong with that society.
Too logical for you?
Mark Just a small reminder not everyone who says he a christiain is a christian, it's gonna be some christiains that reject to me sharing this with you Christiainty is personal. I understand how you feel about the wars and crimes committed under the banner of Christiainty.But I just wish you would stop putting all Christiains in the same basket, yea I wish you would consider a personal relationship with God, but if you don't I see you as being no differnt. All Mankind Has a Common Foe, we need to be fighting evil not each other, God will defend himself and us and the end.
Nonsense. There is no invisible foe. There is no such thing as god. And "evil" is inside of us - it is not an external threat. If you kept your "personal relationship" to yourself - there would not be so many conflicts.
That is why there is so much emphasis on personal purification:
[3:165] Verily, Allah has conferred a favour on the believers by raising among them a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His Signs, and purifies them and teaches them the Book and Wisdom; and, before that, they were surely in manifest error.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=164
Pity you can't actually keep it personal - this is why you cause so many conflicts.
You never did tell me what Allah will do to me for not believing in it.
The shame of it all is most people are like you they cannot keep it personal. They cannot accept the idea of a personal God so they go around frocing their beliefs in the name of God. Futhermore claiming they heard from God when all of the great prophets suggested God wants a relationship with you share this with your neighbor if he declines let him alone. You have decline but you should not put Christiain in a basket as they were apples it's not that simple real christiains may share differnt faiths then the people you call christian and the christians you know would reject and kill these people most Christian war have not been about people in your walk of life you actualy play a very small part and the world of Christians untill you make the mistake of acting like you know what you are talking about.
The person I was speaking to is a Muslim and you should see what he thinks of your religion.
In any case - why don't you keep this "personal relationship" to yourself? Why the need to shove it at me all the time?
This is why your religion causes so many fights.
What the heck is a "great prophet?"
Do ya know or are ya just guessing?
And Christians are always so good at telling everyone that no one else is a Christian but them. It is pathetic. lol...
Compared to when? 100 years ago? There were far far bigger problems then. Look at 1900; real problems.
Life expectancy of 48 (which was the best in the world in 1900 - there are other countries outside of the US, incidentally). 1/10 childbirths resulting in the death of the monther. Smallpox. Waterborne diseases. Zero welfare. Starvation. Malnurishment. Lack of micro and macro nutrients. Murder rate higher (even if it remains ludacrisly high in the US). Crime rate higher. Just about to embark on the two bloodiest wars in history - in America's case, just coming off the back of one.
I'm afraid you just can't compare problems previously with problems now. If a man has no food he his one problem, plenty of food he has lots of problems. These aren't real problems. It's weird that religious people believe this.
www.gapminder.org for more info and statistics on improvement of health, wealth and happiness through time. Presumably as we became less religious - though I don't think one has anything to do with the other.
These guys are funny. They make up a load of nonsense about how much better it was back when we were murdering the natives and dropping atomic bombs on each other - and they do not realize it was worse. We have improved in a lot of ways and one of the improvements we have made is starting to get rid of religious beliefs.
I think it's really creepy - harking back to "the good ole days". Why? Presumably because religion is on the wane?
Wow! What a novel idea! We can all get rid of God and become our own Gods. I wonder who is going to bow down to who? Good luck!
MLK had to turn to India to find a religion that practiced non-violence.
Gee. What a load of nonsense. Secularism started not more than 200 years ago. So the rest of the wars and oppression were.... say it.... from religious nations.
How many atheists are there compared to Christians and other theists? We are a minority and you want to put it all on us? Don't make me laugh.
Try living in a theocracy and tell us how great and unifying it is.Now that's totalitarianism. It doesn't set in when a nation stops believing, it sets in when they think of nothing else.
Actually, people who believe in Christ and follow his life are the real minority. Most people could care less about God and his ways. Some call themselves Christian, but there lives prove otherwise.
I also don't believe in a theocracy, but a Democracy that allows freedom of religion. However, the US government has broken up the power base into three parts - executive, legislative, and judicial - to keep each power base accountable. This takes into account the Christian understanding of the sinfulness of man. Many of the founding fathers who signed the constitution came from a Judeo-Christian foundation and set up these checks and balances. Yes, not all were Christian, but they were operating from a Christian perspective.
The people who founded america did so because they wanted to escape all the religious nutjobs in england you halfwit.
Hey, Jesus was a hippy
America was founded by people who were getting away from religious persecution. They wanted to worship their God freely.
No, they were operating from a Moral perspective. Morality is moral values, Christianity follows moral values, NOT the other way around.
Christianity started with an immoral concept; father killing his son or daughter; Christianity has not any moral basis to form a state strictly in this meaning.
The Christians as humans beings did realize later due to renaissance to do justice and to be equitable to everybody; so the secular states; it is a fruit of centuries of human joint struggle not a fruit of Christianity; which starts from an immoral act killing a father his son.
Thank goodness those morals are ever changing. We don't stone people as much any more or send bears from out of nowhere to kill misbehaving little boys.
Oh yeah, Secular humanism is just another term for the worship of man. This has been around since the beginning of time.
You have a strange view of reality. No one is a Christian but you and even though the US is supposed to have a clear separation of church and state you think it is founded on Christianity. No wonder the country is confused and messed up. The fathers of the country knew what religious persecution was and they wanted to avoid it. However, they failed. It still happens in the US all the time.
Worship of man? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Must be a new straw man you made up to fight with.
What do you mean "why are we having so many problems"?
We have far fewer problems now than we did a hundred years ago - or at least far smaller ones.
Japan and Singapore are pretty successful - they weren't built on christian ideals.
Oh, and Hitler was a catholic. There is absolutely no doubt about that!
The root of Christianity should be Jesus; but the Christians 32000+ denominations of them don't follow what Jesus did and what Jesus believed. The Christians are misled by Paul and the Church; they follow Paul and not Jesus.
It would be great if Europe and America leave Paul and the Churches and they follow Jesus and Mary as their role model.
Except Paul followed Jesus.
Not to mention all the other Apostles.
Paul was not the only Apostle, you know that, right?
Peter wrote some scriptures, as did James, Matthew, John. They were also followers of Jesus.
Are you saying they too "misled people"?
Knowing you, I wouldn't be surprised if you did!!
The scribes of the Gospels followed Paul more than Jesus. Jesus had to immigrate to Kashmir in India ; Mary and other believer friends joined Jesus their; in the absence of Jesus Paul and other non-believers misled the sheep as prophesied by Jesus himself.
Jesus wept, not this again Paar. I've told you, it's making you sound stupid - drop it! You don't work for the Srinagar Tourist Board do you?!
Answer my question.
Do you think the other Apostles mislead the people?
Except Paul and Peter and John all fought about the fact that Paul was teaching a different version of Christianity than they were. They were still holding to Jewish law like Jesus did, but Paul did away with it.
Paul was Roman. He preached in Rome, he Romanized the religion even before Rome took it over.
Actually, there is no evidence that any of those men wrote any part of scripture. It is tradition to attribute certain books to them, but absolutely zero evidence to support it.
I see you have brought the best out of people.
They have certainly displayed a lot of Atheist love.
It's amazing that believers are accused of spreading hate, whilst they all display such love, and courtesy. They will tell you that they just want to educate you, but don't be fooled. You shall know them by their fruit, (which seems to be rotting on the vine.)
Hey, I dont love Minstrel. I never even met the guy and I'm not even gay.
I may insult peoples train of thought on occasions but at least I never threaten to wave at them from heaven while they are burning in hell.
Now THATS christian love.
The conflict lies within believers, who refuse to accept education, but choose to cling to willful ignorance.
It is your willful ignorance that causes you to see reason, logic, common sense, and REALITY as rotten fruit.
Just what kind of an 'education' were you expecting? More delusion? What purpose would that serve?
You may want to find out what "fruit" means.
Your assumption makes you look foolish, and uneducated in this matter.
Why don't you tell me what the term 'fruit' means in this context, since you are the one who wrote the statement, and therefore is the one who now looks foolish?
Simply be polite and EXPLAIN yourself. Or is that too much to ask of you good intolerant, insulting, Christians?
Yep. Too much to ask. Your religion seems to only cause conflict. What a wretched evil 'savior' you serve...no civility at all...NONE!
I actually left the house before you asked me.
But, based on your rude response, I couldn't be bothered answering you.
I'm tired of spoon feeding you lot. Find the answer for yourself.
You don't want to do any work for yourself, then stay ignorant.
At least Im not the only one offending theists. I try my best to be polite but sometimes I just cant stop myself from saying it how I see it.
Of course, I sometimes see that as a plus point. At least Im honest about how I think and dont pussyfoot around important topics to spare someones feelings.
Let's talk about ignorance.
aka-dj says there are actually 38,000 different cults.
And now, a related joke:
I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well, are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are your Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, Me too! Are your Episcopalian or Baptist? He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are your Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord? He said, Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are your Original Baptist Church of God or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum!" and pushed him off.
Paar, thank you so much....yes..was all down to Paul...funny thing for an apostle to have never met Jesus, but saw him in a vision...hmmm...opportunist maybe
Paul says he saw the vision; Jesus never said that Paul saw the vision.
Paul told things that are not consistent with what was said and did by Jesus.
So Paul did not see any vision and was not authorized to be a spokesperson of Jesus.
Why should we believe in Paul when we know Jesus did not die on the Cross, he escaped a cursed death on the Cross, he was treated of his injuries in the tomb he was laid in by his frineds, and he went to India with his mother Mary and other fast friends.In his absence Paul told stories which should not be believed in; more because Jesus warned of a wolf in the sheep’s clothing , standing in his name and misleading his followers.
 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
lol.. yeah and Mohammad never had a vision? Did Jesus said Mohammed had visions?
How about Ghulam Ahmad divine 'chats'?
At least Paul never claimed to be the second coming of the Messiah, Paar. Talk about an evil guy! Talk about being an opportunist!
Talk about being a heretic to the Christian, Jewish and Islamic faiths.
Quite a record for your guy lol
 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
You've basically come on here and made a the mistake that all other god botherers do. You've claimed something completely unture. You've then claimed evidence for this in something which is completely untrue.
If I was religious and wanted more people to go along with religion I would tell people the following;
"Do not, for godssake claim that religion is an alternative to science, don't go near it, don't touch it with a barge pole because you can't compete on that front. Also, keep away from trying to prove that morality is somehow dependent upon a 2000 year old text, morality has nothing to do with it. Please also do not point out that the rise of atheism is somehow linked to the breakdown of society and war because evidence points the other way 100%.
Instead, stick to what religion is useful for, a nice little hobby so that old women can get together and have a cup of tea once a week and bake cupcakes for the local charity. Discuss the magnificent churches or the contribution to the language by all means.
Don't make silly claims that you can't back up or else you do damage to an already waning belief system."
Just my point of view, but a fairly valid one I'd say, particualrly given the abyssmal presentation of your views you've put forward here. Not even an attempt to justify what you've said and not a bit of reading done. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but frankly this post deserves it.
Only if you want a society made up of ignorant people who all claim "do as I say, not as I do" type mentality.
That only creates more conflict and society would be more war like than it is already.
Yeah thats the attitude. If country stops believing in god then send in an army to take them out.
It's primitive thinking like yours that most of the world HATES.
What planet do you live on, and how's the weather there? Here on earth, the most flourishing nations are the LEAST religious, not the most. I'll take Norway over Nicaragua any day. The MOST currently flourishing nation, China, is admittedly Chri-, on no wait, they're all atheists.
Here in America we never had a democracy that believed in God. We have a representational republic that was set up as a secular experiment (which worked incredibly well, I might add), whose population wasn't required to believe anything about religion other than it needed to be kept out of government.
Show me one war started by a secular humanist and I'll show you 10,000 started by theists.
Interesting you said that:
(*) opine: no true evangelical would ever embrace the concept of politics or organized religion; as they barely border the practical fundamentals/doctrines of much of Christianity today.
Weyrich's quote sounds like one of those typical, broad, sweeping generalities made by people who's tolerance for a subject is inversely proportional to their understanding of it.
Just as it's probably not fair to judge all Christians based on the ones who blow up abortion clinics, it's probably not fair to judge a group that is fundamentally interested in bettering society by someone who thinks putting a crucifix in a jar of urine constitutes art.
I think it's a rather telling statistic that while something like 75% of Americans call themselves Christians, and 15% call themselves atheists, the prison population is like 90% Christian and less than 1% atheist. The most violent states are always the most religious, Southern ones. Conversely, the most liberal states (and countries) always have the lowest crime. I've never got into a fistfight in a bar with an intellectual Secular Humanist, and I've never heard of an international ring of "Church of Humanism" priests molesting everything they can get their grubby hands on.
I'm having a great deal of difficulty following your reasoning. I don't know where you are posting from; but American democracy is not based on Christianity. What makes our nation great is our belief in personal freedom. Across the board. This is why those who founded the nation were adamant that church remain separate.
Any attempt to embrace a certain belief structure has been put down, time and again. First when Christians were arguing amongst themselves as to which sect was right; now we have to consistently spend time and money explaining the same thing to Christians time and again. It is not our desire, or our way, to have free will legislated out of existence simply because of archaic views on humanity.
How can you argue that God is what unifies a nation? A look across the globe right now shows that nations that look to God to guide their actions are killing each other by the thousands, just because they can't agree on God. It doesn't bring peace or prosperity.
The insistence of the religious right in this country to lay all the woes of society on everyone other than themselves is, of course, understandable. It's human nature to lay the blame at the feet of others. But, I don't think you realize that even though Christianity has the upper hand now, it won't necessarily always be that way. If you force your ideas of who or what God is on others past a certain point; will you expect others to be more gracious when they begin to take the upper hand? You need to embrace the differences instead of searching for the problem you want to find in others.
No, the founding fathers didn't want only one denomination influencing our country like the Church of England, not the Christian ethic.
I'm afraid that's revisionist history. Look at Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and many others. For their time, they were about as atheist as a person could comfortably get. The founders were quite clear in their intent.
I'm not arguing against Christianity. I am simply saying your OP is shortsighted and it doesn't give all those who have contributed to the history and ongoing good that is accomplished by democracies the credit they deserve. Nor does it give a fair picture of the problems in the world caused by religious zealotry.
I agree. They were Atheists or Deists. I am just saying they operated under a Judeo-Christian Ethic. This quite clear by their writings and decisions.
Sure, nothing totalitarian about the Spanish Inquisition!
The problem is the concept of nation itself which divides and segregates humans and pits them against one another.
What you say here makes a lot of sense. It is obvious that these once powerful areas are slowly losing their powers. USA this week was threatened by the world bank to "Down Grade" their monetary status simply because financially they are spinning out of control just like the European powers did last year. When this happens to the States, who is there to bail them out? Hmmmmmmmmmmm?
Believing in God is not the same as Christianity.
Many religions believe in God.
Christians uplift "Christ" but only occasionally do they worship God.
Minstrel, Christ said his kingdom was not of this world. State religion is false religion. Nations cannot be founded upon true Christian doctrine and anyone who does is practicing false religion.
So how do you explain that the nations with the highest proportion of non-religious people (e.g. Norway, new Zealand) have the lowest rates of violent crime and are generally very well run?
Communist Russia and Nazi Germany are a few examples. And no, Hitler was not a Christian. Just ask the descendants of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the rest of the relatives of confessing Christians martyred under the SS.
I just blame it on the human condition. Like I said we all know what is right and wrong, no use arguing about it! Waste of energy and time! Love and peace is what brings people together! Usually by a spirtual source, but of course atheists don't believe in anything. So leave them in their reality I guess they are doing just fine! So they say anyway!
Yes, Hitler was Christian. He was born Catholic and became a Protestant. He believed in god and wanted to create an Aryan Jesus and an Aryan Christianity. Somewhat like the KKK. lol....
I love it when Christians say, no, he's not Christian. You are always blaming each other for not being Christian. It's absurd. You know how to tell if someone is Christian? If they tell you they are, they are. There is no other way to tell. According to Christians, though, no one is a Christian but them.
Well that is only in your mind! In my mind it is a christian nation! Just depends on whose reality we looking at! Your perspective or mine! My world is completely different than yourse I guess!
Not according to your constitution... Just because people are of a certain belief within a country, it doesn't mean that the nation as a whole must act on these principles. That's not how the real world works.
Yes that is why its called a free country so we are free to believe what we want to believe, just like God gave us the free will to choose to believe or not! So basically what ever makes you happy is your choice, and what ever makes me happy, makes me happy! So we all good! Peace harmony and unity! :0
Maybe Mark needs to go live in old world russia ! That helped out alot when the people were living in poverty and the government ruled the land as well as they killed religion! That really worked!
You ever studied Solon the Greek would love to hear your opinions on his ways !
No wonder your religion causes so many wars.
Tell you what though - I expect Communism was an improvement on the Feudal system that was in place. Do you read anything but the bible?
Yeah communism killed a lot of people that works too! If it was in the earlier years the goverment would be coming to get you now for being a commy! Maybe put you in one of those concentration camps! Lord that works too! Glad I'm a humanitarian! I'd be figting to save your life whether your an atheist or not!
Ask the poor workers who were duped by Lenin and shot when they demanded a free election. I think they would have chosen the Czar over Lenin and Stalin any day.
Dear me. Your history seems some what lacking. You obviously know absolutely nothing about the Russian revolution. Keep fighting for Jesus!
Alexander Solzhenitsyn quotes from Communism: A legacy of terror (1975), "I repeat, this was March 1918 - only four months after the October Revolution - all the representatives of the Petrograd factories were cursing the Communists, who had deceived them in all their promises. What is more, not only had they abandoned Petrograd to cold and hunger, themselves having fled from Petrograd to Moscow, but had given orders to machine gun the crowds of workers in the courtyards of the factories who were demanding the election of independent factory committees."
Yeah but do you genuinely believe that religion (or the lack of it) had anything to do with the stabndard of living there? Or do you think it happened inspite of it.
Actually welfare in russia improved vastly during the 20th century in every measure. Should we put that improvement down to the banning of organised religion? I don't think so.
Really? The welfare of who? The ones in power, yes. The poor worker ate dung!
You didn't address my point at all. Russia had improved massively in terms of the health and wealth of the people between religion being banned and the reopening of russia after glasnost.
Should we put this down to atheism?
I propose all the world goverment leaders look back in history realise what make mistakes and human errors all the leaders made, take upon themselves to not do what my history teacher once taught us, "history repeats itself in time." Well if they were all smart enough they'd understand they don't need to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again. Its all there, learn from it, make a better society!
"On the religion question, South Korea had the greatest percentage without a religion (41%) while Italy had the smallest (5%)."
South Korea has gone from being a third world country to a first world country and a strong presence globally in thirty years. All while being a majorly atheist country. Funny, that.
Not to mention, in Europe Sweden is also one of the most atheist countries, and also one of the countries with the highest standard of living in the world.
That rings a bell.
( a weak attempt to create humor at the expense of your profile name and indicate that I agreed with you)
What? South Korea has a high percentage of Christians. Could it be that Christianity has a part in this? Sweden was once a strong Christian nation. The are still living off the afterglow of this right foundation. They will eventually crumble like the rest of the countries that forsake belief in God.
There is something seriously wrong with you. Sweden is only doing well economicaly because they WERE christian?
So why is America doing so bad now?
You have no ability for logic and your views are primitive and dated.
I see nothing wrong with my logic. America is still chugging along, even though beset by debt, because of their Christian foundation.
Every country on the planet is "chugging along".
Do you actually have a valid argument for anything that you are claiming or are you just another typical blind idiot that goes round asserting what he believes as if it is fact even though it is contradicted by evidence?
Hey Mr. genius
What are you basing your logic or information on? What evidence? I am just saying that the freedoms and accountability found in the Christian ethic produces the right environment for long term prosperity. The effects we are still experiencing today. We wouldn't be able to debate this topic in a Communist or Islamic nation. You bite the hand that gives you the platform to spout your hateful attacks. Whatever. I don't care if you believe me or not. It's your choice. Be happy.
You'd be able to discuss this in a secular islamic country; in which the vast majority of muslims live.
Evidently not and it has been explained to you by more than 5 different posters on this site.
I see you chose to stop discussing your ridiculous argument about "something from nothing".
You can't be serious. Why aren't Congo, Uganda and Liberia top of the world's rich list then? They're reeeeally christian.
Your logic baffles me.
Yeah my boyfriend lives in dutch land, and of course he doesn't follow my beliefs, I understand full well the percentages of religions/spiritualism/etc all over the globe, that doesn't really bother me, without religion it would remain the same, there would still be wars, their would still be genocide, you still be all arguing. The cave men fought against each other, the vikings, so on so on through out history! You'd really think we learn something by now!
Wouldn't that be great!
I'm an optimist myself, so simply see you as one more notch up for peace and harmony.
Well I am one to look at everything full scale, hear everyones point of view without judgement, its a funny thing, I learn more than most people because I will listen and learn most anything, and never say I am correct, there is to much to learn through out history as well as the present time. We could never possibly learn everything there is to learn in one life time, so to me for anyone to argue or say they are right just isn't the correct answer. There is always something out there we don't know and haven't learned yet. All we can do is listen and learn.
Absolutely agree. Although I think there'd be less violence and misery without organised religion, on balance.
Just watch and see. Absolute power absolutely corrupts. We will cast off restraint (belief in God) and become slaves to a totalitarian regime, the likes of which we have yet to see.
Erm, I think we've established that you're talking out of your rear end haven't we?
Just a fact of life mate, the better educated and developed a population becomes, the less inclined it is to religion. The US bucks this trend for some reason - though I'm sure religion will die out in time.
The only person talking out of his rear end is you. Yes, we are throwing off faith in God and it will hurt us. We are becoming a nation of little gods. Entitlement reigns.
Like when there was slavery you mean?
Best thing I ever did was free myself of this nonsense. I am able to see reality without resorting to lies.
Liars For Jesus (TM)
I thought you didn't believe in God? You should take a line and stick to it.
There's absolutely no evidence for what you've just said - nor did you answer my last post in which I alluded that religion dies out as people become wealthier, healthier and better educated. Watch and see.
I agree. They become wealthier and wealthier and forget about God. They become little gods. Yeah, they become intellectual giants and moral dwarfs all at the same time. Nietsche, Huxley, Hemingway, Sartre, Camus, and the rest of the anti-God propagators all died hopeless and despairing because they were so smart.
Sorry to tell you, Minstrel, but the U.S. protects freedom of religion. That means there is no "national religion". It means non-Christians shouldn't be forced to pray in school. It means non-Christians should have the right to practice or not practice whatever religion they so desire, without people of other religions getting on their backs about it being "wrong". I'm explaining this to you because you don't seem to know already. If you believe this freedom has doomed us to eventually become a military state, perhaps you would be happier moving to a country whose regulatory religious views are closer to your own ideals.
What you should keep in mind, if you choose to remain here, is that one person can call himself a Good Christian and not do a single selfless thing for his fellow man; another person can call himself an Atheist and be the kindest, most giving person you ever met. Yes, the Bible teaches morality, but it is not the only way to learn it. Religion does not determine whether a person will turn out to be good or rotten; likewise it cannot determine the fate of an entire nation.
Our country is in the state it is because of a wide-spread disregard for morality. Parents have increasingly neglected to teach their children good values. You can call them "Christian values" but in reality they're just good values and no single religion can actually lay claim to them. So as you can now see, the problems in our country and in our world have absolutely nothing to do with religion aside from a coincidental overlap.
Here is a simple test to run before you attempt to claim something is the answer to our problems:
1. Ask yourself: has it ever caused a war? If yes, don't claim it.
2. Ask yourself: is it possible I'm stereotyping those who don't follow my beliefs? If yes, don't claim it.
Well done; When the Christian missionaries arrived in the islands of Samoa they found the natives worshiping idols made of stone, of course the Christians set out to change that calling the natives idolatress.
But these people were doing that for hundreds perhaps thousands of years and they continue to do it because it works for them.
In conclusion, idol worshiping works for them because they believe and the Christians had no right in changing them and killing those who refused to change, this crazy imposition by these fanatics continues to this day.
Read my earlier posts. I am all for freedom of religion, not a theocracy. I am just saying that a country that bases its foundation on secular humanism or an anti-God philosophy will eventually fail and turn to totalianarianism. Also, where do these good values come from? What grading system are we using?
Lastly, the founder of the Christian faith and his teachings never caused a war, only us humans, who have a propensity to sin. Could it just be that these so-called Christians who started wars, atheists included, were just living out their true nature.
I actually did read all your previous posts before I wrote this. You say you're all for freedom of religion, after beginning a thread labeled "Christianity is the best foundation for a nation to flourish". So in this proposed Christian-based nation, we would all be free to practice our different religions, as long as we didn't mind being scorned by those of the "National Religion"... We could try to live quietly while Christians would get preferential treatment in every matter, and all the laws made to protect us would be based on Christian beliefs that don't necessarily agree with our separate religions. Sounds great - where do I sign up?
As for good values, I'm referring to how one treats one's fellow person. I'm referring to being a caring, compassionate person. Using a grading system to determine how good a person is would be ridiculous. The effort is what matters, not the "grade" of the action. I assume you ask where good values come from because you believe they have Christian roots. Having spent time looking into various world religions, I can tell you that Christianity is not the father of good morals. There were plenty of Pre-Christian peoples who were peaceful and giving.
As for having caused a war, you are correct - the teachings of Christianity should not be held accountable for the Crusades and various other religious persecution. Unfortunately, every person is able to take from these teachings a different meaning depending on the individual's desires and state of mind. Yet you want our already-corrupt government to adopt these writings and be able to make laws based upon anything therein?
You really haven't thought this through, have you?
Again, let me repeat, I do not believe in a theocracy. They have all failed miserably (Calvin's Geneva, Puritan Massachusetts, etc). What I am saying is that Christ's teachings on loving your neighbor and the emphasis on self-sacrifice and restraint are good for a country. The American Democratic system was heavily influenced by Samuel Rutherford's book Lex Rex (Law is King). Even though forgotten by revisionist historians, his writings had a direct impact on our Constitution. They were based on the Bible. John Locke, another influencer, based a lot of his writings on Lex Rex, which promoted inalienable rights, government by consent, separation of powers, and the right of revolution. These are integral to our freedoms, which all come from a Judeo Christian foundation. Upon this foundation, freedom to choose flourishes. I am not into forcing anyone to believe in anything. i am into believing in what I want to believe. True democracy flourishes with the accountability of heaven and not the bayonet.
I am also making the bold claim that we all carry the image of God. That is why every nation, tribe, and people groups have good in them.
I personally think Christ's teachings on honesty, love, and hope could really help our nation, not hurt it.
I agree that those theories are great. However by claiming them as solely Christian beliefs, you alienate the members of society who are non-Christian and you also appear to disregard all non-Christian religions, including those that predate Christianity, which hold the same beliefs. I assert that if Christianity had never come to pass, these good values would still exist.
As for carrying the image of God and having good in us, I'm not sure what to make of this statement since you have already said that humanity's "true nature" is a "propensity to sin".
There is good and bad in all of us. Christianity makes this claim. Sara, the signers of the constitution were not all Christians, but they operated from a Judeo Christian foundation. Science and technology flourished in Europe and America because it was also built upon a Judeo-Christian foundation. Belief in a rational God promoted belief in a rational and logical universe. People studied toward this end goal. If you have the time, read How Should We Then Live by Francis Schaeffer.
Yes, China and other nations had their inventions and political systems, but the west far out paced everyone when it came to creativity and effectiveness. Sadly, the West used a lot of their might to subjugate people; hence, the sinfulness of man. Thanks for your sharing. These forums can get a little testy and intense. I appreciate your honesty and willingness to debate the issues.
*sigh* I apologize for the long post. I promise it is the last of what I have to say on the matter.
Please don't claim that all good morals are simply "Christian values" because they happen to be applied to the Christian way of life; they are also applied to numerous non-Christian religions the world over. Calling them "Christian values" implies that anyone NOT a Christian cannot follow these same values and, in true Christian form, attempts to ignore all other religions that may have come before and had the same ideas. It's egotistical and tyrannical. Furthermore, the idea that science and technology have ever benefited from a Christian foundation is humorous. Heard of the Dark Ages? Heard about protests against evolutionary theory being taught in schools? Heard about protests against stem cell research? Oh, I could go on and on. Science has always progressed DESPITE Christianity, not because of it. I'm curious what your basis was for making such a claim, because I can't think of any way in which believing in God would help scientists discover new things. If anything, an atheist scientist is more rational and logical, as he is not willing to take anything at face value without seeing proof for himself. Science has often gone against those "good Christian values" in the name of progress - are you saying this was due to the Judeo-Christian foundation it supposedly benefited from?
My stance remains the same: the best basis for a strong nation is a strong moral foundation - not based on God but based on respect and compassion for one's fellow man, no matter how far removed from one's own social standing. The rift that has formed in our nation is due to a lack of this respect - people looking down on others, and those others growing spiteful and hateful. Parents are responsible for teaching their children to be respectful and to take responsibility for their own actions. Yet more and more children are not being brought up with these ideas in mind.
Faith is often used as a crutch when it seems too difficult to face a problem on one's own, or when it is preferable to ignore one's own accountability. The phrase "my life is in God's hands" comes to mind right away. I propose that any religion which allows one to give up his or her own accountability is detrimental to society - not helpful, as you would like to believe. I'm sorry to point this out to you, as I am sure you won't want to hear it. Good values are what a society should be based upon, not faith.
That's the primary problem non-Christians have both with Christians and any other religion that uses an archaic "holy book" to determine their values. "Christian Values" aren't rooted in logically identifying good and bad behavior towards their fellow man, they're rooted in a book that is more interested in making their God happy than in treating each other right. Of course, what would one expect from a moral code that has, "Don't pick up sticks or start a fire on a Saturday" on its list, but not, "Don't rape people or molest kids"?
agree Hattie, survival of the fittest, we revert back to that in our Human nature. The stronger over the weaker. Nothing to do with religion. but Religion becomes the excuse
we learn nothing, and continue acting on raw basics instead of advancing.
Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland are blowing each other up because they disagree on doctrinal issues and papal authority. Look at genocidal stuff like Darfur and Bosnia, and you have class warfare and extinction going on because of one side beliefs about the ethnic value of the neighbors....which they glean from their holy books. Hitler believed that he was avenging Jesus' death by killing the Jews...with the full support of the Catholic church. The American civil war was fought over slavery, which was only instituted here in the first place because of how people interpreted the Bible. Lincoln - an atheist - had the good sense to recognize slavery as a bad idea.
What theist and religionists don't get about atheist, agnostics, secular humanist, and whoever else they think might be the bogeyman, is that these people are MORE respectful of human life because they believe it's the only life we get. Religious adherents believe this is just a trial run, so if all goes to hell, big whup. It's all about the next life anyway. It's the whole reason why Southern Baptists don't care as much about the environment as Wiccans. "Jesus is coming back soon, let's just trash the place!" You can not make an intellectually honest argument based on the historical knowledge we have at our disposal that any religion - Christianity in particular - has made the world a better place than it would be without it.
It's interesting to note, Minstrel, that the great Roman Empire did not collapse until Constantine declared it a Christian state. Up until then it had been pagan, with pockets of Jews and Christians in the mix.
Does this mean that Christianity kills states? Ireland and Greece and Spain are all predominantly Christian and they are on the very brink of collapse. Should we make a correlation between their faith traditions and there tenuous hold on solvency?
How about Sweden and the Netherlands? Notoriously disinterested in the question of faith officially, they keep plugging along and let the rest of the world tear itself apart, as they have always done. Employment, health issues, life expectancy, crime rate, all among the best in the world. When will these pagans realize they are paving the way to imminent collapse?
I think your argument is based on very selective information, at best.
Rome was already rotten to the core before Christianity ever appeared on the scene. Ireland and Greece should have practiced the Christian ethic of prudence and serving one another. Just because they call themselves Christian doesn't mean they are Christian. Spain is definitely not Christian. They are secular to the core.
What you are implying is that if you're going to talk the talk you gotta walk the walk. So Spain may be a Christian nation by tradition, but you're saying they're not any longer based on actions.
If that's the case, no nation is Christian by your personal definition. And what value is your definition that anyone should give it attention? What credentials do you have that are any different than any other Christian in these forums who spouts hate, doom, and vengenance by a "loving" god?
If you're gonna walk the walk, you've gotta do something about that obvious lame leg.
How do you know about my life to make such a statement? I'm not saying anything hateful by stating that just because a country calls themselves Christian doesn't make them Christian. America, even with all of its warts, did have a Christian core of service, self-sacrifice, and restraint. They have thrown this off and have become an entitlement nation.
Do you mean warts like slavery, genocide of the natives, oppression of woman, dishonoring treaties, killing the innocent buffalo, denying civil rights, lynchings, burnings, etc?
As long as you do these things in god's name, they are perfectly acceptable.
God is...AWESOME!!! But not to the Native Americans and African Slaves...but I guess they don't count---do they?
Probably not. If they were important to god he would not have plagued them with smallpox and white folk.
Im not racist. I call my muslims friends niggers and they call me honkey. Its more of a joke than anything. Its only racist if you are being derogatory to a race and I am not.
Ok, I wasnt sure. Some people seem to live in a world where racism is still rife. Where I am from, we get theoccasional visitor who expects racism, but most of the people who live here, never expect it to be raised.
I get the occasional unwelcome glimpse of it, but not very often. Not many EDL marches make it this far north!
Oh god. Please dont remind me of the embarrassment that is the EDL. I am appauled and ashamed every time they get in the public eye.
Why, what's embarrassing about the EDL?! At least they're sure of what they want...
I appologize for my use of the term "white folk". No disrespect to the great caucasian people was intended.
So you should; the thousands of years of persecution... it still cuts deep.
Testify brother! Just the other day I tried to join the LA Lakers just in time for the playoffs. They declined (supposedly because I'm short, fat and 60) but I'm pretty sure it was due to my race.
Haha, When the police pull you over, they ask first "do you know why I pulled you over".
I thought it funny at the time to reply with "is it because I am black" (Im white).
It took him a few seconds before he laughed......
The just throw out weak excuses like that to hide their real agenda.
I just hope you kept a clear head about it and went through the right channels to have this dealt with.
I would have been furious myself!
God spoke to me and I did his bidding. You'll hear about it on the news tonight; pretty gruesome stuff.
So you went through the right channels, that's the main thing.
I'll look out for you on the news.
That was amazing! I bet you hardly have enough volts left to light that globe after an ordeal like that!
You sure know how to make the news!
The USA IS secular! - far more secular than Spain, Portugal or a lot of other European countries; it has no national church for instance and wasn't founded on a christian belief.
Even we in the UK have a national church and bishops in the house of lords. Our nominal head of the country is also head of the church. Not that anyone here could care less....
Who cares who is christian and who is not. You are perpetuating the belief that theists are primitive archaic beings that need to be told what to believe.
You are saying that Rome was rotten, like the U.S. is today. You further state that Rome becoming a Christian nation did nothing to help it. So I assume you feel it will have the same awesome results here in the U.S., correct?
You really don't want a Christian country. You wan't a sinless country, and no matter how you set up the logistics of any government you choose, it will never result in what you seek.
Christ did not come to save countries. He came to save people, one pathetic version at a time. That's if you believe.
We weren't formed as a Christian country, and we won't become one, none of which has the first thing to do with why Christ had his ministry.
You just aren't making a very good case, just a very desperate one. Just spread the Good News. Love your neighbor as yourself.
Then let God handle it. If he's there, he's perfectly capable.
Yes, Christ did not come to save nations. However, whenever his ethic was used within the governing of a nation, the best was brought out (the abolition movement in England and America, child labor in England and America). I personally do not have hope that America will turn back to common sense and restraint, not sinlessness. We are spending our way into destruction. Soon, we will be ranked among the 3rd world in regards to our economic strength. The shift has already occurred. Ours is not an economic problem, but a moral one. Yes, we have followed the way of Rome. I pray otherwise, but evry day we squander opportunities to right ourselves. .
During these same periods in the U.S. and U.K. they were doing horrifying things at the same time. Genocide of the indians, imperialist expansion of both countries at the great detriment of some of the territories they appropriated, not entering WWII until we were attacked while we knew what was happening, jim crow laws, class warfare. Good things happen in your demon states. It really doesn't matter.
Rome went Christian and imploded. It didn't help them. Sweden is secular. They are doing far better than most. Your premise is flawed. It's a nice fantasy.
Christ called YOU to follow him. Just worry about that, and the few you can influence. Like St. Augustine said, "I spread the gospel at all times, and when necessary I use words." Smart guy, that Augustine.
Christianity didn't implode Rome. Corruption, sexual immorality, entitlement, laziness, pride, selfishness, and every other fleshly corruption brought it down. The Barbarians only used their pinkys and the whole edifice of Rome came tumbling down. The same will happen in the West.
Also, America and the UK did a lot of good. They stopped Hitler, sent aid to Europe, and a host of other humanitarian things. yes, no country is perfect, but I am thankful for the UK and the USA. I'd rather live here than in the Soviet Union or Saudi Arabia.
You can live in Sweden if you want to. I heard they practice euthanasia on those that society deems as unproductive. They withhold medical treatment from them. I am not saying you are unproductive, but I prefer doctors that value life rather than take life. I don't think Sweden is that great socially. Whatever. You hate God. My arguments will not convince you. Actually, none of my arguments will convince any atheist dead set against Christianity. Aloha.
That's where you are wrong again. I'm not an atheist, I'm a seeker. My standards of proof and desire to seek god with all my mind just exceed your needs to do the same.
Who told you that about Sweden?! Sweden has one of the best welfare systems in the world, the people there are rich, healthy and happy - it is consistently listed in the top ten best countries in which to live in the world. It is in the top ten for personal wealth and second (begind Singapore) in life expectency.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Given what you've written I'd be surprised if you'd ever left the town you were born in or had picked up a book that wasn't "the hungry hungry caterpillar".
That was St. Francis of Assisi, but, yeah, smart sentiment.
Societies based on Pastafarianism have always been more successful than those who worship the hatred inflicted on mankind by the Christian god.
Look it up.
Mr. Noodly only wishes he were God.
People chew him up and spit him out every day, 'cause he's only made of flour and water, unlike the One he imitates.
Ah Brenda, you upset the most noodly one - you will boil in a vat of ragu for the rest of eternity!
No no it must be Prego, and I want a huge non-slotted spoon, no forks.
What's with Mr. Noodly anyway? He doesn't even give me a choice! Very unlike the real One.
You have a choice Brenda. All you need to do is accept that she is the one true God and you will go to heaven. She only has one rule - "No gods before me."
We interpret this to mean:
"Serve Pasta as the first course."
No war was ever started in her name - and you are free to divorce as many times as you wish. What a great religion huh? None of that self righteous crap we usually get.
Thanks for the welcome!
But indeed I can take you far beyond the knowledge of the FSM, and teach you that you are, as Paul told the Athenians, already attempting (notice I said attempting) to worship God, but you do so ignorant of His reality, or rebelling at it.
Acts 17: 18-34 explains how God is very knowable, but that the Athenians called Him "Unknown".
No - you contradict yourself with every utterance. Still - I forgive you because you do not know what you are doing.
You have no knowledge Brenda. Wishful thinking and simplistic nonsense do not count. Sorry. You do not understand your majik book - and never will I suspect. Oh well.
So you will eat your pasta and blithely go about your business, pretending you don't know the Truth?
Is that because you think God forgives everyone, even now, if they don't know what they're doing?
God does not exist. See how that makes everlasting you say completely useless? Like I said - you do not understand your book. In fact - I very much doubt you have actually read it.
How do you know God doesn't exist. You must be a god, Mark. Only a person with all-knowing powers could make such a claim. Actually, you have made yourself out to be a god. it doesn't matter really. Nothing didn't create something. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. It's too much of a lunatic stretch.
But your clearly not intelligent enough to see the problem that this ridiculous statement invokes which is;
WHO CREATED YOUR GOD?
Just as I thought. You are too stupid to understand that you negate your OWN argument that says something doesnt come from nothing by claiming that god does.
You just disproved your own argment. Well done.
Actually, not really. I just didn't complete my argument. Infinity did not create something. It had to begin somewhere. The universe is expanding. This is a fact. It had to have some starting point. We are also running out of energy. It had to have a full tank. there was a beginning. If you are God, you don't need a starting point. He was the starter. Read Genesis chapter one and you will see what I mean.
To attack my character shows your own weakness. Stick to the argument and don't use ad hominem attacks against me.
You are just reiterating your own fallacious argument. The only thing you added was how you came to the conclusion that this universe had a beginning, although it is also fallacious since NOONE knows anything beyond plancks wall and as far as we know, the singularity could well be infinate.
You debunk your own argument. Either everything has to be created which will include your god or everything doesnt need to be created in which case the universe did not need a creator.
Your inference to how the universe is not infinate is your opinion that is not backed up by any fact.
This is probably the oldest and most debunked argument for the existance of a god that was ever published on the internet yet you seem to have missed out on reading the millions of pages that refute this fallacious claim.
I suggest you stop arguing out of ignorance and study the facts nefore you claim to have them all. It really does not reflect well on your person.
You don't have facts either. Can you disprove the existence of God to the nth degree of certitude? No! You are also spouting theories. We have all taken a step of faith. Atheism is a step of faith. That's all it is. And stop calling me an idiot. Stick to the argument and stop using ad hominem attacks. I guess you have to resort to bullying to make up for your weak argumentation.
So what?!?!?! Just because you cant disprove something is NO reason to believe it is real. Can you disprove Horus or Vishnu or Isis? What a RIDICULOUS thing to say. You just keep on making yourself look stupid dont you? And its not my fault if the truth is an ad hominem.
Where? What theory have I spouted?
Atheism is the LACK of belief due to a LACK of faith. Stop making things up to make yourself feel better about your own deluded beliefs. I have NONE.
Stop proving yourself to be one with your ridiculous arguments.
On the contrary. You havent provided a shred of evidence for any of your claims. I dont even need to provide an argument. You disproved your own argument yourself. Dont you remember?
Aww - so having faith is a bad thing now?
No wonder your religion causes so many wars.
But - I like where you are going with this - you think it is not possible to create something from nothing? Did I get that right?
Which God?! Allah...Ra...Horus...?
Except in the case of your ridiculous God.
Actually, you don't have enough courage to be an atheist. You prefer the comfort of willful ignorance over the courage of having the confidence to believe in your own intelligence.
I guess accepting reality is much more insane than believing in ,and talking to, imaginary beings. This is beyond absurd.
I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
I repeat. I don't have enough faith to be an athiest. Atheism is just another belief system.
I guess you wouldn't have enough faith to read this either.
Excellent link, thanks Earnest. I guess I do have enough faith to read it?
Atheism is just another belief system? I don't believe it!
Yeah, that was nice link. Bunch of good info I've seen spread around other places all lumped together.
Atheism is a belief system in the same way that not stamp collecting is a hobby.
If god forgives me, I will rochambeau him until he surrenders and agrees to stop forgiving me.
From FSM website:
To outsiders it makes us hard to define, but here are some general things that can be said about our beliefs:
* We believe pirates, the original Pastafarians, were peaceful explorers and it was due to Christian misinformation that they have an image of outcast criminals today
* We are fond of beer
* Every Friday is a Religious Holiday
* We do not take ourselves too seriously
* We embrace contradictions (though in that we are hardly unique)
It's been good debating with all of you. I think I will eat some ramen. God bless. Oh yeah, you don't believe in God. Bless you anyway.
May the grated sacraments nourish your soul...
So pey what you say about the spirtual tribes that are killed in the genocides all over the world and jews, not all about christianity. Another point that some of us believe is that people killed off spirtual tribes because they were in touch with the earth, new things that man just don't want to be aware of, and if people knew the truth about the spirit world, they'd understand they wouldn't get away with all the BS the world goverments are saying. This is just another thing going around web as much different information. So it doesn't necessarily have to be about christianity or religion. The human race didn't have religion from the begining of time, they still warred and killed. So how can that be truth to blame everything on religion, they are big part of it, but not all of it.
Of course you're absolutely right that religion can't be blamed for everything. But we do know that for as long as we've had recorded history, we've had religion in some form or another, and that its adherents were constantly killing other people, not for secular reasons, but for religious ones. It's like Christopher Hitchens says, "Left to their own devices, you will always have good people doing good things and wicked people doing wicked things, but to get a good person to do a wicked thing you have to give them religion."
Oh, sorry, I neglected to answer your first question. Lemme try again. I thinks it's unspeakably tragic when ANYONE dies, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, or belief. I don't believe that there are certain deaths that are less important than others. My effort was not to make a point about who was dying, but about who was doing the killing. Let's take a random sampling of any 20 wars in history and examine why it was fought in the first place. ALMOST always there is a religion reason involved. And in the rare instances where the perpetrators are avowed atheists, you can still usually find a rigid belief structure that is as closed to challenge or questioning as religious belief. Stalin wasn't killing people out of his disbelief in God, Stalin was killing people out of his intolerance for people challenging his economic and political ideals. Rigid thought is always the culprit, but rigid thought appears to be much more a product of the dogmatic thinking associated with religious beliefs than of the "live and let live" humanists and secularists.
"Christianity is the best foundation for a nation to flourish."
Well, evidently not. I like two things about this topic: (1) it is very testable against evidence and (2) I wrote a hub relating to this very recently (http://hubpages.com/hub/Religion-Atheism-and-Crime )
Some quick facts:
*Since 1970, the US has significantly decreased in religious belief; violent crime is slightly higher since that time and property crime is slightly lower. Less religion has had no significant impact on American crime rates.
*Since 1990, the American violent crime rate has plummeted... while the percentage of people reporting atheism, agnosticism, non-belief, or not attending regular religious services, have all risen significantly
*Among the American states in recent years, there is a notable positive correlation between religious behavior and property crime in a state
*The US has the most homicides of any rich country; it is also one of the most religious rich countries
*Among the rich countries with the lowest homicide rates, at least 40% of those polled say that "religion is not important in their daily lives"; this goes as high as 80% and over
Just the facts, ma'am.
hmm well secularist10, glad to meet you, can understand your views as well, just trying to stay neutral, doesn't alway mean i agree with everyone. I understand the world is my classroom, so i do tend to put my own beliefs aside to understand all perspectives and dynamics in any discussion. We all have valid points, many people can be right and wrong, it is whether they really think about what they are saying, if its really well thought out, if they've done their research, looked at things from a multiple perspective and understand the many parts and peices that fit together in creating the problems in our society. I have learned to listen more shut up, hear everyone out, and than I can see the bigger picture. If I sat here arguing points, I'd never learn the valuable lessons of life and people, and wouldn't be productive as a social worker, because fortunately i can not put my bias's my beliefs on my clients. I have to stay neutral, but at the same time understand their position and where they are at. So even though I have my spirtual beliefs I will steal treat an atheist so on hubpages, as well as other social networks, as well as secondlife I understand to put myself in these groups of people to explore and understand their world to benfit the whole of humanity.
Yes, being open to knowledge and reason from whatever source is a very good quality.
The data and evidence clearly disprove the contention of the OP on this topic. Open-minded people will be able to see that, so I am glad to hear you are willing to listen to facts.
well, this has forum has made for a wonderful laugh....nations built on christian ideals...lol Never saw an ideal that didn't belong to another religion as well.
This goes out to all the bible thumpers out there....
Jesus was a jew, he believed himself to be the messiah of the jews....his followers were jews....Paul created Christianity to benefit those who were not jews, of course he would not being a jew himself.
Love thy neighbor and all those other wonderful sayings that Jesus taught, have been taught by many other religious leaders since time began...nothing new...they are very true of course but not exclusive to Christians.
One more thing....read your bible...if you find one verse where Jesus said pray to me or that HE SAID he was the "son of god" please inform me as I will have to go looking for a new bible, mine is faulty
"Love thy neighbour" is just common sense for a social animal like us. We are genetically programmed to do so anyway!
I always think that Christians credit the moral standpoint of the bible too much. I mean the idea that "do not kill" first was taught 2,500 years ago is laughable. It does a bit of an injustice to all our ancestors from the previous 250,000 years - would we really have survived as a species for so long if we randomly killed ech other!
The 'best' foundation for a country to 'flourish' is a democracy based on the seperation of church and state.
The Truthful Religion supports it; a state should be secular, equitable and just to everybody with discrimination of color, race or religion:
[4:59] Verily, Allah commands you to make over the trusts to those entitled to them, and that, when you judge between men, you judge with justice. And surely excellent is that with which Allah admonishes you! Allah is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=58
Okay, people, once and for all: AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY! America is a REPUBLIC. A Democracy is "majority rule": 51% of the population can make the 49% do whatever they want. Our republic is "rule by law": 99% of the people can't tell 1 person what to do. The LAW decides what they can and cant do. Yes, America has a democratic VOTING SYSTEM, but that's it.
Is UK a democratic country in your opinion.
America is a constitutional democracy, surely use of the term "democracy" covers more than just "direct democracy". No country I can think of is a direct democracy.
Once and for all...
a republic simply means that the head of state is not a monarch
a democracy means 'rule by the people' The laws are made by the people. Their rule and law making structure can take many forms... they can delegate to elected officials, or exercise their power through referendums, etc. (or as in ancient Greece, get together in an arena and vote). The best democracies have checks and balances, so as to ensure that the majority can't take the rights away of the minority with out some considerable effort. That is why it is so hard to change the constitution, and why power is distributed amongst the 3 branches of government (and among the states and federal government).
America is thus a republic AND a democracy AND a country ruled by law.
You can use CAPS ALL YOU WANT BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN WHAT YOU TYPE HAS ANY BASIS IN FACT
Hang on, you just reminded me of the direct democracy that I was trying to think of!
even in a so called 'direct' democracy, the people can decide that a simple majority of votes do not carry the day.
They may, for example, hold a referendum on an important issue and decide that if a given law was to pass, it would need to require 60% of the ballots cast.
Christianity is the best foundation for a nation to flourish.'
For a nation to flourish is does need moral standards which include honesty, fairness and charity toward those who need a helping hand. If a religion wants to be relevant toward this end, it needs to demonstrate that it isn't motivated by some self serving agenda.
A country can have a moral compass without religion being involved, just as the founding fathers laid out in U.S. constitution.
It's interesting that whenever God or Christianity is brought into any mix, the resulting debate can get pretty intense, pretty hateful at times. Why is that? I think I have the answer. We are all absolutists. We all believe we have the absolute truth. Yes, we do. Even those who believe that there is no absolute truths are absolutists because they believe in their position absolutely. You are going to cause sparks when this happens.
The issue then becomes one of where we get our absolutes. The Christian gets their absolutes from the Bible. I get my absolutes from it. C.S. Lewis, Blaise Pascal, Isaac Newton, J. R. Tolkien, and others did the same. They made no apologies. I don't either.
Many of you, not all of you, have ever even picked up a Bible and studied it from beginning to end. Yet you judge it as if you were an expert. You listen to the politically correct media and culture to form your opinions about Christianity. It is quite evident. Opinions are also made about each other without any evidence other than the electronically formed letters on a screen.
You never met me and I have never met you. Cyberspace keeps us safely anonymous, yet we make character judgments (not all of you) about each other. I guess the forum is the only place for many to let out their frustrations and anger. Whatever.
Ultimately, the real question we need to ask ourselves is this? Does God exist or not exist. If he does, then having him involved in our governing of people is pretty important. If not, then lets trust in man's ingenuity, intellect, and goodness and forget about heaven and the whole God thing. Again, his existence or non-existence is the most important decision we will make in our lives. Maybe you could care less about this question. That's your choice.
I personally believe that our decision as a nation to turn away from God has proven destructive and will lead to our eventual disappearance from the world scene. It's already happening. The power is already shifting away from the West toward the East. The dollar will become worthless in a few years like the German currency after WW I. You cannot print more money and expect it to be worth something without the capital to back it up. We borrow money from totalitarian regimes to keep up our entitlement facade. Our leaders know this, but do nothing to remedy the eventual collapse of our economy - and it will collapse
The ethic of hard work, saving, serving, healthy accountability and giving found in the Christian faith served our nation and old Europe well for many years. Yes, other cultures and religions have different pieces of this ethic; Christianity doesn't have the corner market on any one thing, but it is the only one which brings it all together into a workable whole. Man has also used the name of Christ to commit atrocious things, but that is not Christ's fault, but man's. Many so-called Christians have chosen to use their freedom to hurt others. Atheists have done the same. Nobody is innocent. Everyone has blood dripping from their hands.
I do not believe in a theocracy, but a democracy that values each human being as created in the image of God but realizes our limitations as sinful human beings, too.
Whatever the case, thank you for your contributions to this forum topic. Aloha.
While it is true that absolute belief causes conflict, it is not true that all people "believe" in absolutes. That is only a position taken by those who are only able to believe and not think critically, allowing them to move beyond beliefs and into a world of understanding.
Pointing out that your words are untrue and fallacious is not a character judgment about you.
Hilarious, you make the claim that by turning away from god we are observing a destructive world and then you back your claim with economic and political examples.
But, that IS a theocracy.
Not really. A Democracy with Christianity as its ethic restrains itself from stepping on people's freedoms. A Democracy with secular humanism as its ethic will deteriorate into totalitarianism. Either heaven will keep you accountable or a bayonet. We are in between right now.
You mean freedoms like being homosexual or having abortions or believing in another religion or ...
Are you trying to sell me a swamp or something?
Really? Even when we have secular societies that are flourishing and not deteriorating into totalitarianism? However, we can look to the most religious of societies to see totalitarianism in practice.
Heaven or a bayonet? Those are your only two alternatives?
How about the fact that we can use our brains, our compassion and our altruistic nature to be accountable for ourselves? Beliefs in fantasies and weapons of war are not the only alternatives to moral and ethical behavior. In fact, they have both shown to have failed miserably in that regard over the past many centuries.
I liked what you said. Minstrel
I try to keep politics out of the picture. Let the heathen govern themselves. It is not Gods way to call for a national vote when it comes to leadership. God is supposed to appoint leaders, not man. So i stay clear of politics.
But looking at the nations and considering the New world order, One world government. I wonder who will set the rules for the one world government? Is this not totalitarianism and dictatorship at its finest? All vote for Nimrod!! see you at the tower of Babel, baby.
I have not time for people who think any sexuality, homo or otherwise are enjoying freedom.. For some it has cost them everything, for others it has all been a huge disappointment, for some the cost is unending. And as far as abortion being a freedom, well for some it has cost them their identity, humanity and created an unending question even a hatred of that part of themselves. If these are freedoms, give me Christ!.
You are an absolutist and narrow minded like all of us. You said "It is not true that all people "believe" in absolutes. That is only a position taken by those who are only able to believe and not think critically, allowing them to move beyond beliefs and into a world of understanding". You are saying that only critical thinkers are not absolute. Are you absolutely sure? You better critique your critical thinking.
The Minstrel, Your detailed, insightful post above is very interesting and I fully agree with it.
Unfortunately it is not supported by the facts.
I left a link for discussion on another thread, which has a lot of important arguments about christianity and god, but none of the believers seem to reply to anything they don't already agree with, or examine anything outside their religious tomes.
You are making judgments of people in this post while chastizing others for doing the same.
How do you know people's familiarity with scripture? What an outrageous accusation. I have been studying it for years, and continue to almost every day.
You just hate to contemplate the idea that after that much study, someone could come up with a very different conclusion than what you have.
Why would you make the ridiculous accusation that those who don't agree with you have gained their biblical wisdom from some unspecified media source?
Your not coming across as a serious person to have a discussion with. You seem self-deluded and misguided.
What Bible are you reading?
Yes, I am an absolutist like you. Am I self deluded and misguided? Only to one who is also self-deluded and misguided.
A simple apology for your accusation of biblical ignorance would do.
i don't think so....
in another forum answer you said that people have to outsource the bible and understand other ways before making a decision.
I see the decision you have made
and i blame it on your outsourcing
There are some people in here who claim to have read the bible for 30yrs before coming to a different light. Time is not the answer here. What a person reads and the conclusions a person comes are the answers.
IF a stupid thing is said or God is removed from the bible then clearly that person is in trouble with their walk with God.
When talking to beely, its best just to sound the buzzer.
have a nice day.
There has always been Greek geniuses and you are no exception, the perfect movie title.
I can see it making a fortune!
My next door neighbor is another Greek genius. He invented a new ways to burn lamb at the family gatherings.
His latest cooking device is made out of old car parts.
God I wish he would let Effie do the bloody cooking though!
that's my sister's name....
and no... no you don't
Every Greek's sister is named Effie, we have three Effies in our family, one of my kids married a Greek girl who was not named Effie, so I know there are some exceptions, but her mom's name is Effie.
All Effies are kind and gentle and great cooks.
Earnest,tell me the hub you speak of. I would care to read it.
I grew up near the Greek town of Tarpon Springs, FL and new and worked with quite a few and George was a popular name. But I miss the Greek resturants down there. But anyway, as far as this topic, I want to know what The Minstrel was drinking to come up with the topic "Christianity is the best foundation for a nation to flourish" and where can I get a case of it!
There were many great civilizations and cultures that flourished beyond the imagination way before Christianity was invented. So much for the idea of Christianity being the best foundation for a nation to florish. Tell that to the Ancient Semaritains, Eqyptions, Greeks, Romans to the present day Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and everything in between. You get the idea. Now I'm craving a Gyro without onions.
The Minstrel, surely had to know when he posted this topic, this would be inflammatory to others. Sometimes people like to stir up the pot so to speak.. Its a good lesson in tolerance!
Christianity as espoused by Jesus certainly fits the description. But as practiced by nations or national heads, NO
Well show us their is no God. If you can't, then those are ridiculous empty claims. Works both ways getitrite!
Sorry, but I have made no claims. If so, show me where I have made a claim. So your conclusion is illogical. I merely want evidence of Mr. Minstrel's claim. Is that not reasonable?
It's the way we keep from getting swindled.
It is apparent that Christians need to grow up, and stop making childish claims, then whining after not being able to produce anything...then getting angry just because honest non-believers refuse to accept your dishonesty. Which, as you know, is IMMORAL.
Getitrite,The unbelievers strenght of fact production is no different than the believer. You have proven nothing except that you have learned to talk in circles with the hope of confusing your supposed adversary.
Let me reiterate...non-believers are not making a claim. It is you making the claim, so the onus is on you to validate your claim...and it is you sending this debate into a circular argument.
Also, did it ever occur to you that if you need to rely on all this nit-picking of logical fallacies just to give yourself a feeling of the possibility of the existence of your God, that just maybe you have nothing to begin with?
Well you are claiming there is no God so on what basis can you prove to us there is no God! If you can give me cold hard facts and evidence with multiple methods of research and experiments to prove their is no god and it is viable sources! Back up your statement here if there is no God bring it on!
The Atheists would only ridicule you; they don't have a reasonable argument.
The only way to weaken a negative belief is not to join in the illusion..The problem with arguing with someone, who wishes to accuse or to insist on their belief is a lesson in failure... our country was built on religious freedom. It is not loving to accuse others.
Unfortunately your country was built on the intolerance of the deeply religious forefathers who pretty much murdered the indigenous population - starting with the first thanksgiving where they should have been thanking the local tribespeople for keeping their incompetent a$$es alive through their first winter - but of course like good christian folk they attacked and killed their helpers at the first opportunity.
Tell that to the Natives that were here, or the Africans who were bought here as slaves. Their religions were outlawed, and the white man's religion was forced upon them at gunpoint.
What a great God of unconditional love!
You confuse yourself.
The african had no rights.
The religion they had they brought with them.
Of course it was bible based.
In acts 8:27 an ethiopian is mentioned. ethiopia is mentioned lots. Christianity spread down into africa and tody muslim is trying to usurp the african nation.
Gods love is behind salvation. You make a generalization that in order for God to really love, He has a list of things to do first. Because there was slavery you say that God does not love.
Clearly you do not know how God loves.
When Gods people left Egypt, what condition was egypt in? No army, Gods all humiliated, No firstborns. Gods people were singin a song man! The judgment at the end of all things.. who will be worse off.. those that pleased God or those that didnt?
Your claim to know how God should love is flawed because you just have a bigoted hatred toward God that one sides your points and prejudices your answers.
Confused about what?
Just like the diabolical Christians did.
More nonsenscial indoctrinated regurge.
No. I said that there is no God, but that the white Christians are liars when they try to pretend that they had these great morals. Those morals only applied to other white people...and then, even some of them were subjected to inhumane treatment...all under the banner of your Christian nation.
There is no God.
God's people? That's completely absurd. What a partial BIGOTED God you serve.
A partial God...reeking havoc on His other unchosen creation...
This gets sicker and sicker all the time.
That's because the fiment of your imagination, that you see as God, is a human contruct, invented from the minds of immoral psychotics.
I don't have a hatred toward God, because there is no God...but I do have a hatred toward immorality.
okie dokie then
ya know what i have trouble with. self righteous individuals who know nothing except their own egos ranting about a psychotic God, whom they know nothing about; pleading their case for higher morality. This vicious and sick attitude shows that while they say they don't believe, their conscience still goads and they kick against what they fear the most and like a frightened animal, cornered, they lash out. The psychosis of this situation is truly troubling. While God is uninvented and disbelieved, God is fully active in their minds, like a person who after knowing they have done wrong, cannot live with their actions.
have a nice day, feed a bunny.
Accepting reality--I suppose?
Eventhough they are EX-Christians? Seems they know more about this imagined God than you do.
I think you just described your fear of reason.
Very true. It is extremely troubling when delusion is accepted as reality.
There is no God. The biblical God is an invention, constructed to gain control over a fearful ignorant population. God is NOT active in anyones mind, because God is IMAGINARY.
So sorry, brother, but your God is only imaginary. I say this without malice. If you could get beyond the fear and indoctrination, you could see that what you are saying is irrational.
In other words, there is nothing wrong with denying the lies written in your hateful bible. In fact, it is liberating that I'm no longer bridled with the yoke of irrational fear.
I have done NOTHING wrong by not believing in the ignorant writings of long dead charlatons...no matter what your hateful beliefs lead you to believe.
You have a nice day too.
You are right.
One believes in the Creator-God, very naturally; it is also deep rooted in human phsyche. The Atheists created conflict and confrontation un-necessarily; in frustation and doubt.
She is dead wrong, and so are you. Again, I have made no claim. It is believers making the claim. This is not tit for tat. Your position is absurd.
Maybe it's just indoctrination.
This is laughable. What doubt? It is fair and balanced. You have not produced anything to validate your claims...nothing
Yet, like a spoiled child, you arrogantly put the burden on us to accept your delusion, as if it makes sense.
You are the one who has created the conflict.
Then attempts to propagate it across as many threads as he can think of an accusing title for.
This is not a conversation, this is an on running add for the most hateful tome ever written by a sociopath.
What does the science say? Does it say the Creator-God does not exist?
The atheists are in a positions of doubt; that is why they say themselves "skeptices"; people of doubt.
Conventional science states that there is no eivdence to support the belief in a God or gods. In other words, they looked for evidence, of YOUR claim, and found none.
So what is your point? It is still you causing all the conflicts...by making up nonsense, then trying to push it onto rational people.
i think science got as far as the atom and said this is the building block of all things.. but they never stated how the atom got that way.
I think science said that the big bang started from compressed gravity resulting in friction that ignited some chemical... but science never said where these chemicals came from.
My point is that science, no matter how good it is will always be flawed in some aspect. Light was thought to be in particles but after a different machine was used is was noted that it flowed in waves. The sun was thought to circle around the earth, which was credible to a lot of people as it certainly seemed that way, but, eventually an even more astounding discovery was made and all of a sudden the earth was hurtling through space.. gravity is the source of all these orbits but where did gravity come from.
Science leads us to a place and then stops always with a question remaining.
God solves the questions that remain, every time.
You are right that there was an error in thinking the sun revolved around the earth, and science solved that problem, but your beloved KJV records the sun rising and setting, and god is seen to stop the sun in its travels. Obvious scientific errors, yes?
im not sure i follow you on that one.
Genesis chapter one states.. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
God is not unable to stop a sun or even 'replace' the sunshine with his own shekinah glory, which may have appeared like the sun didn't go down.
I don't call them errors. The people write as they are accustomed to speak. There are many instances of "language of the times" being recorded in the torah, and New testament. When i hear rising and setting i do not think, oh that's an error. We still say the sun sets and rises.. no biggie.
No biggie unless we want to suggest that the bible is inerrant. Then it's a problem. It is an error.
The sun is "stopped" in Joshua 10. We know the sun was never in motion in relation to the earth. No biggie.
You can't figure this one out?
This is why we need the spirit to discern the word of God.
There are at least three ways i can think of to make the recorders of the bible state that the sun remained in the sky and none of them are impossible to God.
Reason, rationale and logic can be tossed right out the window when attempting to discern the word of a god, so that they may be supplanted with a "spirit" providing the guidance and requirement for the believer to discern that word as they see fit.
If we were to believe such a spirit existed, why then are there so many versions of Christianity? Are there so many different spirits?
But you don't believe that the world was created the way genesis says, surely? I mean, we know it wasn't. It's a metaphor at best.
Everything has a polar opposite and you "CLAIM" there is no God.
Again, I never claimed that there is no God, but that there is no evidence to support the belief in a God or gods. Do you understand the difference?
I can''t prove to my child that there is no monster under her bed, but there is no evidence to support the belief that there is a monster under her bed.
I, personally, think that it is nonsensical to go on believing something after the top scientists in the world have found no evidence of its existence.
Please, for the enlightenment of all of us, reference the scientific inquiry into the existence of God. I am not aware of that field of study.
But it took Scientists years to prove several things.
What if God does not want Scientists to prove him?
What if a person has personal experiences that prove to THEM that God exists. Should they give it up because science can't prove it?
Which is why, at this time, there is no evidence to support the existence of a God or gods.
But, let me guess...He would reveal Himself to people like you? Just guessing!
Some people have experiences that prove to them that mermaids exist...and since there is no way of proving that mermaids don't exist, AT THIS TIME, we would have to regard his belief in the same manner as we would regard God.
I, personally, think that they should, but you are welcome to imagine any REALITY that supports your need.
Its wonderful, that you put your faith in top scientists! Maybe, they don't know everything..Its important to me to respect other people's feelings and beliefs. Why do you care that others, could believe in God? I read The Course in Miracles, but I also know there's only a few people who have the intelligence to even comprehend the Course... Wisdom would dictate that we allow others to believe as they wish, without calling it ridiculous.. It is also important to defend other people. We live in a country that supposedly allows people the freedom of speech. Very few people are actually open-minded in this world. They feel its their deep insecure need to control others. How sad for them. Would be nice to work towards win-win situations!
Is that what you would say to the KKK? How about the witch doctors in Africa who pay money for people to go out and kill albino people so they can harvest their bones for their magic powers?
How about the Nigerians that rape 6 month old babies in the belief that it will cure their HIV?
How about the beliefs of the 9/11 bombers?
I think you should re-think your claim.
My faith is not in scientist, but rather, in reality and common sense. Belief in imaginary beings defy reality.
I would think that they know more than ancient goat herders from the Bronze age, who didn't even know that the Earth revolved around the Sun.
I don't care what you believe in, but if it sounds ridiculous, silly, insane, absurd, etc., then I have the right to tell you.
Oh yeah. I guess we should just allow those Westboro Baptists, who protest at soldiers' funerals, to believe as they wish. We should never tell them that their beliefs are RIDICULOUS.
Which means that anyone asserting something has to allow the opposition that same freedom.
Then religion would have to be banned, just to start toward this goal.
To your last post getitrite,my brother used to say.Same to you but more of it.
Extremely wise indeed. But somehow I expected something with a liitle more substance from a person with the name SEEKER OF TRUTH.
Proof that you have no position at all, and that your foundation is biult on nothing but childishness and dishonesty.
SEEKER OF TRUTH????????!!!!!!
getitrite speaking of seeker of truth have you ever studied all faiths , religions, talked to spiritual people of any sort over a long period of time. I don't know what atheists do, but I can tell you that if people don't understand something because they never studied it, its hard to call people liars and dishonest just because they want to say their atheist. I never see you share any proof their is not god, goddess, higher sourche what ever you want to call it. Yet you intend to keep telling us there is no God. so from your experience how do you know their is no God? Can you really prove their isn't one!
I'm a former devout Christian. I have read most of the bible.
Throughout my life, I have worshipped with Pentacostals, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Bahá'í Faith.
I agree...but as you can see, I have been fully indoctrinated.
I don't need to. It is self evidence. There is no Flying Spaghetti Monster either...there are also no mermaids.
There non-existence is self-evident.
But, logically, nothing can be proven to not exist..but that causes your position to become completely desperate, and sets the stage for an infinite amount of nonsense to be treated as valid.
I also can't, logically, prove that there is no Revo.
Revo, is a character that I made up who lived for just a few minutes, before he died, but he created the universe just before he died. Now he resides in everything, all the way down to the atomic and quark level, and beyond. So, now, YOU prove that Revo doesn't exist.
I would say that the religion itself isn't the best foundation, but the morals, ethics, and values of the religion are.
...and that morals, ethics, and values predate religions.
It is apparent that religions only attached themselves to these things...making religion only the indirect object. The morals, ethics, and values are the direct objects.
So are you saying as an atheist any moral , ethic, or value a religous person has you do not believe in any morals, ethics or values, because if you are stating this as non-spiritual person that you are you would state that you have no morals or values, because basically all values and morals by other research stem from some kind of spiritual tribe, relgion, or ancestory at some point in time in the human race. Even as an atheist if someone in your family down eco-map or geo map of your line must have or might have had some kind of connection with it, for you have only learned through example and words of what they created you to be. So if someone was to read the bible some where down your line, put it into practice with out words or crammin it down your throat, lets say for instance charitable acts, helping others out, loving your neighbor. You've been taught it. So you better not be nice to someone cause those christian virtues might rub off on you.
If you know what an eco or geo map is. Which is tracing all the learned behaviors down your ancestoral lines they use in social work and psychology, so traditional methods which were used in families.
Jesus as such was never a christian.. He was a teacher, in that he came to teach a different way of thinking.. He did not believe in the illusion of separation..He learned to meditate, as a way of listening to God's Voice as to what to speak and say. He never played the victim. His teaching and his nature was compassion, understanding, mercy and love.. He did not believe in accusing another. He said, to love one another, and to love your enemy as yourself..He did not say to punish them, or to kill them. He understand the dynamics of guilt in those that were sick and miserable, He told them they were forgiven! I believe he was a great psychoanalyst. He learned that from his Father.. He wanted us to love everyone which included those that persecute us...he demonstrated that he could not be killed..He taught that if the body is destroyed, we still live as Spirit...
Matthew 10:34 - Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
As is evident in these forums. There is indeed a deep divide!
Believers and nonbelievers.
Yes, Jesus/God loves all humanity, but He also acknowledges reality. Not everyone whom He loves (and died for) will love Him back. In fact, they are downright, hardcore set against Him!
The need to be right, is built deeply into humanity. You know what they say about protesting so much? Its a deep psychological need to be loved. Its understandable that if you don't have a personal experience, with God then what can you base your belief on? It truly does not matter what another says..Everyone has accusers. Those who are arrogant are calling out for help. Its best not to argue with someone who insists on being right.. The atheist of today, could be the Christian or the Hindu of tomorrow. Those who insist on being right, will suffer..until they change their mind..
Would that be true of those people that call themselves Christians as well, and insist they are right?
exactly! Any time we use religion or any concepts to control others is error.
The bible can be used in a scary manner, when people use it to hurt or kill others. Some of the Bible has good teachings, but some of the teachings are bizarre. We know of the inquisition, the burning of witches, etc....by so called Christians.. At some time or another, every race, tribe religion, or sex has been tortured, punished or murdered because of religious or political persecution.. The world truly believes in separation and the projection of guilt onto others. Teaching someone that they are a sinner is judgment and its not loving.. We need not defend or justify ourselves to anyone who speaks insanely... and we know our world has been quite insane for centuries...
And you witnessed this event...I presume?
And just because, He supposedly, taught this, doesn't mean it is true does it?
Yeap he did! That is the thing learning to live it in example! Becoming like him in our actions and words! :
I agree with you! its about practicing the true teachings of unconditional love, and not using any religious belief to practice separation from each other.. Once we've made comparisons, that one is better than the other, then we have fallen into separation..
So I assume that you pray to Allah and Vishnu and the JuJu god, as well as Jesus.
Its always best not to assume anything. I accept the teachings of Jesus, in the Course of Miracles, its the most consistent thought system I've come across, and not only that, but if you practice the teachings, you will have spiritual experiences or what is called LIGHT Experiences..
Are those anything like "LIGHT HEADED" experiences?
I offer you a challenge, since you are evidently highly intelligent, why don't you try reading the book, and then let us know what you experience.. Only a few very intelligent people can understand or comprehend what the book is truly about..I'm sure you could then relate back to us your LIGHT experiences.. but its your choice of course!!
What do you think about these critiques of the book?
Benedict J. Groeschel called it, "severe and potentially dangerous distortions of Christian theology, a good example of a false revelation and that it has become a spiritual menace to man."
Evangelist Bob Larson said, "it contradicts basic tenets of Christianity, twisting its core teachings and deceiving people who are sincerely looking for God"
Eliot Miller and other Christian critics say it is "intensely anti-Biblical and incompatible with Christianity, blurring the distinction between creator and created and forcefully supporting the occult and New Age world view."
Really? And, you're one of them? Wow.
Sounds like he did not read the book! I suggest you READ the book for yourself, unless you are too afraid...I don't agree with his assessments..he's very fearful and he's a fundamentalist.. The Course in Miracles is not about the New Age.. Good try though!!
Oh yes, I'm sure those guys would have read the book had they made public statements about them.
How about these detailed critiques from a Christian slant?
With most Christians, they believe only in the Bible.. They do not recognize any other teachings. If its not from the Bible, then its from Satan.. They believe in Satan, and they believe if you are not saved, you will burn in hellfire. They believe they must try to save the rest of us..I left these teachings behind when I left the Catholic Church. Christianity as such would not accept these teachings, because they believe the Bible is the only acceptable authority. I do not accept the teachings of a God, telling people that its acceptable to kill their children for drunkenness, or to smite your enemy. I believe God is not limited to one book, nor one religion. I know personally that God is unconditional love. Have you ever studied the Bible? I've had mystical experiences as a result of studying and practicing the Course in Miracles. Its about unconditional love, compassion, forgiveness, and the healing of your relationships on earth. I believe there is good in all religions, if people learn to love one another another. Everyone must find their own spiritual path in life. Some of the people that have studied the Course in Miracles, are Dr. Wayne Dyer, Dr. Gerald Jamplosky, Marianne Williamson, and many others... I have studied Eastern thought, and I am also interested in the teachings of Yogananda, and the Native Americans. I believe in Meditation and Prayer.
Then why did you post this in an earlier post?
"I agree with you! its about practicing the true teachings of unconditional love, and not using any religious belief to practice separation from each other.. Once we've made comparisons, that one is better than the other, then we have fallen"
Just look at how you have contradicted yourself. You, apparently, don't know what you believe.
Either your beliefs are completely nonsensically contradictory, or you are being totally dishonest.
Sounds like you are very unhappy sir.. The Bible has mixed up thinking..and I do understand fundamental people truly believe in these mixed up teachings. I feel compassion for people who teach you are going to be punished by an unforgiving God. The Course in Miracles never teaches that God punishes you..It only teaches unconditional love. Sir why are you considered about religion, I was wondering what have they done to you, that you feel the need to discredit people who believe in God..Have you been persecuted by Christians? You look so sad in your picture? I wish you only peace and love sir...
In other words, you choose to totally evade the question that I asked you, by creating a strawman...while being patronizing and condescending.
What does this have to do with my statement?
Still, nothing to do with my statement. Will you do me a favor and go back and read my statement again? Thank you.
But this is not about me. It is about the contradictory statements that you made.
I know you feel the need to be superior, but could you stop the condescension just long enough to actually undersand the statement that I have posted? Thanks a bunch.
Oh...and I wish you only peace and love.
Hmm..well challenge yourself to look beyond your limited perspectives, if you go beyond what you believe in the moment, with enough research you can even prove yourself wrong!
I think it's probably true that the richer countries of the world are typically orginally Christian and also typically Protestant. There are obviously exceptions to this; Japan and Singpore spring to mind.
Although it is the case that White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant Countries are richer and generally better developed and tend to be the old source of power in the world; I don't think that it follows that it is a prerequisite that the country must be christian.
I'd say the trend is now the other way; the more developed and secular a country, the more it moves away from Christianity or religion generally. The big up and coming superpowers of China and to a lesser extent India have no christian foundations whatsoever.
Whatever you take from that, it is obvious that there's far more going on than the christian heritage to make a country successful - in fact I'd say that it probably pales in signifacance compared to other factors. And a theocra y is never the way forward...
China is on record as saying that if they had to choose a national religion (Hope they don't. Nationalizing a religion is detrimental), they would choose Christianity. It is a religion that fosters Capitalism. It fosters healthy competition and accountability.
The grassroots Christian movement is huge in China. Bigger than what we can even imagine.
Well the way you speak getitrite, doesn't say much for your example as an atheist, and how not having a God makes you a better citizen. If your way is the better way as I see many atheists on here demonstrating through their actions and behaviors towards others, I'd hate to see a society that feels being moral is speaking and treating people through action and behavior that demonstrates the same thing you are say christians are doing but on the opposite side of things. Whether you are religous or atheist doesn't really matter, its through your example and actions that sends what kind of message you stand for! It just comes down to leadership and example.
The only thing religion teaches is "do as I say, not as I do". And, that is no foundation for living. Plain and simple.
With the exception of the atheists that are my good friends, I understand that not all atheists present themselves as the ones on hubpages, and love them to death, but the ones I've read upon here on hubpages, they have that same mentality of do as I say, don't believe in God! On the other hand the ones that I am personal friends with do not tell me not to believe in God. They allow me to follow my own path, and I allow them to follow theirs. We don't argue about it. We just agree to disagree, and move on from the subject, enjoy each other, value one another.
This hubpages atheist mentality I can do without! As well as atheists do have their the point as well when certain christians do act the way they do.I have experienced myself being one, and went up against a legalistic Christian trying to tell me his point of view on a woman's place in ministry. I know both sides of the argument and know full well why atheists feel the way they do as well as christians. I just think it is funny that atheists on here complain about Christians doing something, and they are displaying the same thing towards the christians.
It works both ways! If you are rude to a christian, what do you expect in return. If you have no respect for another person no matter who they are, that is just what you get in return!
On your last point, though, they will denounce the christian for their display of a lack of love and kindness. Principles they hold Christians accountable for, but not themselves. Thus making hypocrites of themselves.
Otherwise, I like your comments.
Well Thank you aka-dj, I can agree some christians are hypocrites as well as some atheists. Not all of the are on either side. Just depends on the individual themselves and what they choose to stand for and what kind of message they choose to demonstrate through their actions and not words. Like I said better to let others follow their own paths, and just agree to disagree on some things. We will never agree on everything! Doesn't make christians bad people anymore than atheists.
I respect your right to believe whatever it is you desire, however, you must respect my right to point out the inconsistencies, contradictions and dishonesty woven into your beliefs.
As an analogy:
If I keep telling you that there is a monster in my closet, but you thoroughly inspected my closet, again and again, and there was NO evidence of any monster, would you not become frustrated with my insistence that: "No matter what you say, I'm certain that there is a monster in my closet...you just can't experience the monster through the scientific method."
What if I went on to tell you that this monster wants you to believe he is there too...and if you don't believe, he will allow bad things to happen to you...because he loves you...and he woke you up this morning...and is responsible for every breath that you take.......
Do you REALLY understand the atheist's position?
You don't believe in God. You believe in no God. That's your choice. Be happy with your step of faith.
What a ridiculous cop-out. I essentially destroyed the very foundation of your foolish and fraudulent beliefs, and all you can write is this irrelevant childish garbage. You should actually answer the questions that are posted(honestly)or stop wasting time on this forum. This is beyond childish.
This shows that your beliefs are resting on the foundation of dishonesty.
getitrite...I am sorry, are you speaking to me? If you are. Then I am sorry you feel the way you do. And secondly, you can not "destroy" my foundation. For greater is HE that allows me to walk in this world than he that is in the world. You don't have any power over me or the way I believe. I will keep you in prayer!~and I pray the truth in your life and may it burn inside your heart! Peace be with you!
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