I have a question about Genisis, Adam and Eve

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  1. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    So GOD tells Adam and Eve to eat from whatever tree they want to except the one in the middle cause it is the tree of good and bad...

    So then the Serpent comes along and convinces Eve that it is ok to eat it and that God is lying, so she eats and then Adams eats it.

    God says that if you eat the from that tree you will die.  Knowingly they eat it anyways.

    My question is...

    If Adam and Eve did what they did and it is considered to be out of disobeinece and not ignorance.  I have to ask.

    If they had not eaten from the tree of good and bad yet, then how would they know the difference if they were not yet equiped with that knowledge until after they ate it?

    It would seem that they were completely ignorant and without knowledge because if they already knew good from bad than the serpent or snake or whatever wouldn't have been able to trick them.  Or they would have been better equiped to make a decision.

    Eve was probabaly a dingy. LOL.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      And so it begins. big_smile

      Just doesn't make any sense does it?

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Not always but I would like to make some sense out of it.  smile

    2. TrophyMan profile image65
      TrophyManposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      The answer is:  G-D gave Adam exactly ONE commandment (later, 6 other commandments were added over the next nine generations up until the time of Noah, and after the flood 1 additional commandment was given to Noah and his decendents, making a total of 7 laws that pertain to Mankind after the flood, known as the '7 Noahide Laws' which all of Mankind is SUPPOSED TO uphold, only we all know how confused things have gotten since then), which Adam only had to keep for a few hours (Man/Adam was created Friday, and G-D finished creation on Friday (Saturday = Sabbath which starts at nighttime on Friday). 

      If Adam had upheld his ONE commandment for the few hours of his initial existence, none of the rest of history would have happened.

      It was all a big setup - G-D is omniscient and knew what would happen, but Man still has free will and was given the option.

      Now, here's where things got screwed up:

      G-D told Adam not to EAT from the tree or he would surely die.  But Adam told Eve that she couldn't even TOUCH the tree.  In other words, Adam was trying to be more stringent than G-D and innovated his own extra parameters to the commandment that were not told to him by G-D.

      Because he CHANGED the commandment, Eve was told by the serpent that she was being lied to - touching the tree wasn't going to kill her.  And then, he pushed her into the tree to show her that nothing happened.

      Next, the serpent convinced her to try the fruit (he had gained her trust), and after she ate of it, she gave some to Adam.  The idea was to be like G-D in knowledge (knowing good from evil), and it was very tempting and was all for altruistic purposes at the time.  Oops.  We all know how good intentions sometimes turn out.

      The whole problem started when Adam tried to be holier than G-D and added to G-D's single commandment.

      The lesson is clear, the story makes perfect sense (when you get it from the source and not some bastardized version) and Adam knew exactly what the commandment was from the very beginning, only he chose to invent some new 'details' that didn't previously exist.

      Mankind has ever since thought he/they were smarter than G-D and has invented all sorts of stuff throughout history, all the while ignoring the commandments that G-D specifically gave (none of which are what Christianity/Buddhism/Islam teach, by the way) - the 7 Noahide Laws.

      There is only ONE religion, and it can be called 'Do what G-D says', only the organized religions of the world invented their own.

      If you're Jewish, you have the commandments that Jews have to upheld (613), and if you are not Jewish, you have  7 Commandments to uphold.  But people always think they are smarter than G-D, just like Adam did.  G-D just wants us to listen, but we are too busy talking.

    3. waynet profile image67
      waynetposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Er..my head hurts!

    4. Jewels profile image83
      Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      My understanding of this is that this phase was the beginning of an awakening to duality.  Not so much a phase of Evil as we now understand the word evil, but the knowing of something outside of oneself.  Imagine if you were a being that only knew the state of divinity - say that is the state of being God.  Totally in bliss, but so blissed out you couldn't recognize the state of bliss, cause you never knew anything else but bliss.  (Please don't mistake this state of bliss to that experienced in meditation - at this poiint in our evolution we are very much removed from the level of bliss akin to that at the separation).

      It's theory, or conjecture, that the intention was for beings to see their divinity and know it. This was the eating of the tree of knowledge - To Know, To See, To Be, -  to stay Divine.  It was the initial beginning of Choice - you hear that saying among new age circles "We are the only planet of choice."    Those that saw themselves as separate from that divinity, or separate from God and then somehow different from God, and then felt lesser than have partaken in the process of death and rebirth.   Life and the experience of evil - evil being that which is not of light, is the attempt to rejoin that initial state we fell.  Makes you want to be cautious next time you blink - it can start a cycle of death and rebirth, geez!

      There is no true answer to this, not intellectually anyway.  It's a fair way up there close to the pinnacle of that knowledge tree.  Keeps philosophers busy for life times and it can be fun doing just that.

      Amid this experience of evil we currently call life, I often wonder why God couldn't have sent a memo asking for volunteers.  I was perfectly happy being a bliss ninny. smile  But I would never have experienced anything other than being a bliss ninny so would it have been in my best interests to not join up for the ride.

      And Ignorance v Disobedience.  Ignorance comes into the category of the bliss ninny. Were some sooooo sleepy they couldn't fathom their actions?  Disobedience is the rebellion of something which really brings separation into existence.

    5. Jouneyman2 profile image55
      Jouneyman2posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      First off,  this was a test for Adam, not Eve; to determine whether or not he would qualify to reclaim the throne of earth (rule) from Satan.  Secondly; man's sense of what constitutes good and evil is not the same as God's. The test didn't concern good and evil, it concerned choice and free will; whether they (man in general) and Adam in particular had developed the
      character to obey God, submit to His law / government (commandment) unquestioningly,   (thereby qualifying to seize the throne (government) of the earth back from Satan and re-establish God's government here )  or whether he would choose to make (determine) his own way (laws/government) contrary to that of God.

      The trees and fruit are merely symbolic representations of choices of true / good vs evil/ deceitful character. There was no trickery involved, except on Satan's part in that he didn't explain to Eve that it was the first death he spoke of and the second death God was referring to.

    6. Davinagirl3 profile image60
      Davinagirl3posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Good point.  I had always attributed to lack of knowledge, or ignorance, to the decision, but you're right. They didn't know right from wrong.  It would have been like punishing a child that didn't know what "no" meant.

    7. usmanali81 profile image60
      usmanali81posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It's not necessary to take hashish in order to gain knowledge about it.

      It's not necessary to drink alcohol in order to gain knowledge of it's bad affects.

      It's not necessary to struck your head on wall in order to gain knowledge about pain.

      Similarly, Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) did not require to eat that apple which was forbidden. They new it's bad for them BUT the problem started by the decption of Satan. It is this very cruel technique of deception which the Freemasons use it on laymen for their evil gains. Gay marriage is bad for people scientifically + morally but the followers of Satan made this thing so attractive and deceptive that governments are now legalizing this extreme act of sin.

      1. mohitmisra profile image59
        mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Is it possible for you to write a paragraph without mentioning the Freemasons?

        Many things one learns purely out of experience like fire burns or what exactly enlightenment and god is.

      2. earnestshub profile image81
        earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        You are full of it usmanali, you were obviously indoctrinated at an early age. All you speak is hate and intolerance, religion has made you a very small man indeed.

    8. fishmox profile image60
      fishmoxposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Drill a small hole in the wall, put a sign over it that says "Do Not Peep, Please".

      Then wait.

      Most likely the first one who comes along will look around, then peep, if  not, then someone will.

      that's the point of God's whole exercise.

      From the dust, earthy.

      The only ones with true free choice were Adam and Eve, and they blew it.

  2. gamergirl profile image86
    gamergirlposted 15 years ago


    Did you know that in the Tarot the Death card has one underlying meaning with two slightly different interpretations?

    Death - upright:  A great change brought about by you - whether by conscious or unconscious acts.

    Death - inverse (upside down):  Something happens TO you which causes a great change in your life.

    When God said that they would die, the implied meaning, at least from the way I read it, is that they would cease to be as they were, they would experience a severe change.

    Assuming they did it out of disobedience for it's own sake - they still knew that it was what God bade them not do - but then, the serpent was in the Garden, and God - being all powerful and all knowing, put the serpent there.

    God told Adam and Eve not to go against his word- and then equipped them with the proper tools and faculty to disobey him.  Lookit all that, now.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      That is interesting.  Would you say then that God intentionally meant for them to experience disobedience to understand it?

  3. DJ Funktual profile image75
    DJ Funktualposted 15 years ago

    That's genEsis btw.

  4. gamergirl profile image86
    gamergirlposted 15 years ago

    I think, if we look at God in the sense that he is presented, he knew what he had created - gave them temptation from the first moment, and planned for them to do just as he told them never to - by the story, by the canon of the Bible, all that which happens does so by the will of God, even your sins.  (your in the universal sense.)

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      You make good sense Gamergirl.  smile

  5. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    I have to say I am pretty disapointed that not one Christain has chimed in to help a seeker answer the question.  sad

    1. eccles profile image59
      ecclesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Because Christians have been brainwashed by Churches, their parents, Bible Camps. They are not allowed to reason it out for themselves. This applies not only to the Fundamentalist Christians as in the United Christian States of America, but to Roman Catholics anywhere in the World. I speak from personal experience as a bedraggled refugee from the "Holy' Roman Catholic Church. All we were taught was just the bare essentials to go to Mass and perform the other necessary things as Roman Catholics. One is not allowed to question. You must obey the Pope and the Holy Mother Church in all it's doctrines whether you understand them or not. I thought the doctrine of the "Holy Trimity" was ridiculous: three persons in one God. Of course, if I had questioned that in school the consequences would have been horrendous. The Jesuits used corporal punishment.

      I maintain that NO children should be introduced to religion until they are taught the basics of Science.

      1. earnestshub profile image81
        earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Heartfelt comment from experience, I can relate to that a lot better than quotes from the bible. Well said!

        1. JonTutor profile image60
          JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          My thoughts exactly... had similar experiences being catholic... tough to break free indoctrination.

  6. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    I think it can't be satisfactory answered from the Christian perspective smile

    For me this is an allegory trying to explain to us the duality this world is built on, and implying that stop judging good and bad is the only way back to {God|Absolute|Universe|Whateva} wink

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Man I love you Misha!  *little clappy guy smiley face thingy*.

  7. Mark Knowles profile image57
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Sandra - the simple fact is that it makes no sense, but a believer will tell you that in the beginning Adam and Eve were sinless and pure. They were given instructions not to eat the fruit.

    They ate the fruit.

    This was not ignorance. They had been given strict instructions. By god.

    This was rebellion against god and therefore they and all their offspring (us) are now sinners. Born in sin and damned.

    God kindly sent us his only son (depending on who you think has it right) to save us from our sins.

    It doesn't matter if it makes no sense if you have faith smile

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      yeah, that is what I hear.  I have faith, I have faith that we are all ignorant when it comes to knowing anything at all about our existance. 

      I also have faith that if there is a God, then he would like...Get over here and gimmi a big hug you ingorant little harlot. LOLOLOLO.  smile

      1. Mark Knowles profile image57
        Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        My thoughts exactly.

        Although some will tell you that he is over there giving you a big hug, you have just not opened your arms to it wink lol

  8. allshookup profile image61
    allshookupposted 15 years ago

    I can tell you how I think about it. I think God put them in the garden and they were there in innocence. Not ignorance. God told them plainly not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He gave them the whole garden to enjoy yet, when tempeted, they gave in. He did this in order to give them free will. God wanted them to worship Him out of love. But at the same time give them a choice. He doesn't force anyone to love Him. The same as He wants us to do today. They were cast out of the garden then (death as it is referred to). They 'died' to their innocence. I feel He put it there so they could have a choice. He did not push them to obey Him, He gave them a choice. They made their choice and lost so very much. Today we have the same choice. We still have free will. He never forces us to love or follow Him. Yet, we will also reap the consequences if we don't obey, just as they did. It is all up to us.

    1. profile image0
      jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thank GOD, at least someone knew it was the Tree of Knowledge.  Tree of Good and Bad- too funny.  Thank GOD someone knew the basic story line of the Creation story.  It is rather apparent that the person who wrote the post to begin with, had never even read the story!  I can't thank you enough for pointing out that the 2nd Creation story was about INNOCENCE (not stupidity), sacrifice, guidance and FREE WILL!!!! 

      Bravo!!  Well done.  Thank you for at least knowing the subject and the facts before you posted a thread!!!!  I wonder what Lilith would of said? 

      To those who don't know Lilith, I suggest a trip to the library to gather yourselves even more knowledge...

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        ignorance doesn't mean stupidity either, from the girl who posted the thread. smile 

        The only question I am asking is if all was perfect to begin with and these perfect humans didn't eat from the tree of good and evil then how the hell could they have know what evil was, therefor it wouldn't make any sense for any christain believer to say that they were being disobedient if being disobedient is something that can be equated to, at least by christain methods or theory, as being evil. 

        To me it sounds more like you did not read with a shred of competance.  thank you. smile

    2. profile image53
      madmacposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      So  by eating of the fruit they committed a sin then by that reasoning if he hadn't put the tree there to begin with there would have been no temtation therefore no sin. He being all knowing knew they would be tempted so once again this God loved to play games with mankind.

      1. profile image0
        jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

        I guess so if you believe this fictitious parable, that comes for a FICTIONAL book.  I guess one could think God is like that; by the way is the 'big,bad wolf' still living underneath your bed?  Ah... that's too bad.

        I can kinda see the angle and point you were trying to make; but, man you blew it.  Sorry!  God didn't play mind games, he didn't create the world in 6 days, and he didn't rest on the 7th.  So for your information the big bad wolf isn't under your bed he's in the forest, Hansel ate the witch and never returned home, Goldilocks married the Papa Bear and Peter Pan grew up.  Go figure...

    3. RRRood profile image65
      RRRoodposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      This is the perfect answer.  I hope the questioner really wants the perfect answer

  9. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    LOL Interesting perspective and insight into our psychology. smile

    I would put Buddhism here, though, cause it clearly fundamentally different from Judaism/Christianity/Islam group.

    1. TrophyMan profile image65
      TrophyManposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Well, even though Buddhism is fundamentally different, it is a major religion and all major religions EXCEPT Judaism share one very important thing:

      They all originated with one person or very few people that started the religion claiming to have received a Divine message. 

      The difference with Judaism is there were 600,000 men between 20 and 60 years old, along with their families (older and younger men, women, children - over 3 million people) that ALL personally witnessed the Divine Revelation that took place at the foot of Mount Sinai when G-D spoke to the Jewish people and gave them the Ten Commandments.

      No other religion can or would make this claim.  Think about it:  How hard is it to maintain a conspiracy between 3 million people, all agreeing they saw/heard the same thing, communicating to their children and their childrens' children for 3300 years without someone at some point saying "Wait one minute here - that's not what MY father/grandfather told ME is what happened!"

      Buddism = one guy beneath a tree
      Islam = one guy on a mountain
      Christianity = a couple guys claiming their guy is the guy (with different versions of the story)
      Mormonism = one guy in a desert

      1. Misha profile image63
        Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Aren't you happen to be a Judaist by chance? wink

        Interesting, somehow I was under impression that commandments were given to Moses. So we would talk about a guy on a mountain, too smile

        1. TrophyMan profile image65
          TrophyManposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          The TABLETS were given to Moses, the Commandments were first spoken to all those at the foot of the mountain and afterwards written on the tablets.

    2. profile image52
      cognizantdrtposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Definitely! Buddhism calls for personal effort, rather than a passive appeal for salvation from a third party. I have also noticed that Buddhists practice their "religion", contrary to many Christians that I have known.

      In addition, anyone who still believes in an "imaginary friend" as an adult has the need to be lead down the trail.

      Just be a good person...how hard can that be! The Christian Bible can be used as a guide, but to think that it is to be taken literally is a sad commentary indeed.

      See PublicBookshelf.com under spirituality books and check out the book on
      "Definitions for the Soulful Seeker". There are some interesting points in the book.

  10. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    Trophy Man wins a trophy for his version of Adam and Eve, that was a riot.  Thanks!  smile

    Then the serpent pushed Eve into the tree....lol.  I can't stop laughing.  smile

    1. TrophyMan profile image65
      TrophyManposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      The serpent had arms and legs until he was cursed by G-D, then he had to crawl on the ground and eat dust for the rest of existence due to his sin.  Maybe he kicked her into the tree!

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        I wonder if G-D thought it funny too.  smile

        1. TrophyMan profile image65
          TrophyManposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          He certainly has a sense of humor - just look at the platypus.

          1. profile image0
            sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Platypus...nothing look at Bush. LOL ahahahahah

      2. Jouneyman2 profile image55
        Jouneyman2posted 14 years agoin reply to this

        So if Satan lost his arms and legs how is it that he stands and walks to and fro throughout the earth? The serpent was a symbol.

    2. Jeromeo profile image61
      Jeromeoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      God had spent time with Adam long before he created Eve for a companion. Adam had a relationship with God that should have been based on loyalty, trust, Love and appreciation.

      The Bible admits that Eve was weak and easily decieved by  Satan,  who was acting as a ventriloquist to make it appear the serpant was speaking.  However Adam knew better.  God and he were together, when Adam was given the task of naming all the animals.

      Adam chose Eve over God. Eve chose self rule.  She relyed on Satan's charge that God was a lier.

      God expected them to rely on him as their soveriegnty to guide them in the right direction.  he expected them to take him at his word and leave his property alone.

      The fruit of the tree, of knowledge of good and bad was restricted which made it God's property and the command was not to trespass, to leave it alone. 

      Was this a test.  Eveidently God what relied on their obiedence, out of love, other wise he would not have been so outraged when he found out they had defied him.  It must have been like painting a masterpiece just to find your cat had come in and knocked over the painting and walked all over it.

      Can you imagine some one gives you a brad new house.  The house has everything, including a refridgerator filled with food.  You get to llive in the house forever, with the only requirement being not to plant Roses in the Garden, or you will loose the property.  You don,t have to know anything but that you don't plant roses.

      If you decide you like roses so much that you would rather loose the house then it shows a definated flaw in your thinking processes.  Remember Adam and Eve were created as Perfect human beings just like Jesus Christ.  Wh proved that it was possible to live up to the request.

      Make no mistake, Jehovah put trust in Adam and Eve to obey him.  They chose to follow their on paths of self rule.  Eve was ambitious and Adam was disloyal.  If we look at the state of the world we find ambition and disloyalty or loyalty to one's self, as two of the main resons we are devided,; to the point of hating one another.

      Lastly the flaw that was found in Adam is what promted God to bar Adam and Eve any further access to the Garden of Eden; for fear they would eat from the Tree of immortality and have their defects as a permanent aspects of human life.

  11. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    LOL Then I have to go back and re-read smile

  12. allshookup profile image61
    allshookupposted 15 years ago

    Misha don't faint or anything lol but I'm with you on this part. He gave him the commandments on the top of that mountain you are talking about. He then came down the mountain and saw what his people were doing, got mad and threw them down and broke them. God spoke the commandments to him while he was up there and he came down to tell his people what they were. Did you faint yet? LOL

    1. Misha profile image63
      Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Why should I? smile

      I guess here may be a difference between Christian and Judaic interpretations. Either way, I am not that passionate about the issue or similarity of our views on it to faint over this. smile

  13. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    'The difference with Judaism is there were 600,000 men between 20 and 60 years old, along with their families (older and younger men, women, children - over 3 million people) that ALL personally witnessed the Divine Revelation that took place at the foot of Mount Sinai when G-D spoke to the Jewish people and gave them the Ten Commandments.'
    That is a new one.
    'God spoke the commandments to him while he was up there and he came down to tell his people what they were.' This is the way I always heard it.

  14. TrophyMan profile image65
    TrophyManposted 15 years ago

    Exodus, Chapter 20, Verse 1:
    "G-D spoke all [the Ten Commandments in one single utterance.  He then went back and specified each one individually.]  The Jewish people responded (Yes to the positive commands, No to the prohibitions).


    It helps when you have the original Hebrew and Rashi's commentary.

  15. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    I guess the text allows for both interpretations, if you consider the end of the previous chapter...

    כד  וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו יְהוָה לֶךְ-רֵד, וְעָלִיתָ אַתָּה וְאַהֲרֹן עִמָּךְ; וְהַכֹּהֲנִים וְהָעָם, אַל-יֶהֶרְסוּ לַעֲלֹת
    אֶל-יְהוָה--פֶּן-יִפְרָץ-בָּם.     24 And the LORD said unto him: 'Go, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest He break forth upon them.'
    כה  וַיֵּרֶד מֹשֶׁה, אֶל-הָעָם; וַיֹּאמֶר, אֲלֵהֶם.  {ס}     25 So Moses went down unto the people, and told them. {S}
    א  וַיְדַבֵּר אֱלֹהִים, אֵת כָּל-הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה לֵאמֹר.  {ס}     1 And God spoke all these words, saying: {S}
    ב  אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר הוֹצֵאתִיךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים:  לֹא-יִהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, עַל-פָּנָי.     2 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
    ג  לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל, וְכָל-תְּמוּנָה, אֲשֶׁר בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל, וַאֲשֶׁר בָּאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת--וַאֲשֶׁר בַּמַּיִם, מִתַּחַת לָאָרֶץ.     3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
    ד  לֹא-תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה לָהֶם, וְלֹא תָעָבְדֵם:  כִּי אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֵל קַנָּא--פֹּקֵד עֲו‍ֹן אָבֹת עַל-בָּנִים עַל-שִׁלֵּשִׁים וְעַל-רִבֵּעִים, לְשֹׂנְאָי.     4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
    ה  וְעֹשֶׂה חֶסֶד, לַאֲלָפִים--לְאֹהֲבַי, וּלְשֹׁמְרֵי מִצְו‍ֹתָי.  {ס}     5 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments. {S}
    ו  לֹא תִשָּׂא אֶת-שֵׁם-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, לַשָּׁוְא:  כִּי לֹא יְנַקֶּה יְהוָה, אֵת אֲשֶׁר-יִשָּׂא אֶת-שְׁמוֹ לַשָּׁוְא.  {פ}     6 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. {P}
    ז  זָכוֹר אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, לְקַדְּשׁוֹ.     7 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    ח  שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד, וְעָשִׂיתָ כָּל-מְלַאכְתֶּךָ.     8 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;
    ט  וְיוֹם, הַשְּׁבִיעִי--שַׁבָּת, לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ:  לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה כָל-מְלָאכָה אַתָּה וּבִנְךָ וּבִתֶּךָ, עַבְדְּךָ וַאֲמָתְךָ וּבְהֶמְתֶּךָ, וְגֵרְךָ, אֲשֶׁר בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ.     9 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;
    י  כִּי שֵׁשֶׁת-יָמִים עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֶת-הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת-הָאָרֶץ, אֶת-הַיָּם וְאֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-בָּם, וַיָּנַח, בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי; עַל-כֵּן, בֵּרַךְ יְהוָה אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת--וַיְקַדְּשֵׁהוּ.  {ס}     10 for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. {S}
    יא  כַּבֵּד אֶת-אָבִיךָ, וְאֶת-אִמֶּךָ--לְמַעַן, יַאֲרִכוּן יָמֶיךָ, עַל הָאֲדָמָה, אֲשֶׁר-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לָךְ.  {ס}     11 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. {S}
    יב  לֹא תִרְצָח,  {ס}  לֹא תִנְאָף;  {ס}  לֹא תִגְנֹב,  {ס}  לֹא-תַעֲנֶה בְרֵעֲךָ עֵד שָׁקֶר.  {ס}     12 Thou shalt not murder. {S} Thou shalt not commit adultery. {S} Thou shalt not steal. {S} Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. {S}
    יג  לֹא תַחְמֹד, בֵּית רֵעֶךָ;  {ס}  לֹא-תַחְמֹד אֵשֶׁת רֵעֶךָ, וְעַבְדּוֹ וַאֲמָתוֹ וְשׁוֹרוֹ וַחֲמֹרוֹ, וְכֹל, אֲשֶׁר לְרֵעֶךָ.  {פ}     13 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house; {S} thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. {P}
    יד  וְכָל-הָעָם רֹאִים אֶת-הַקּוֹלֹת וְאֶת-הַלַּפִּידִם, וְאֵת קוֹל הַשֹּׁפָר, וְאֶת-הָהָר, עָשֵׁן; וַיַּרְא הָעָם וַיָּנֻעוּ, וַיַּעַמְדוּ מֵרָחֹק.     14 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.
    טו  וַיֹּאמְרוּ, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, דַּבֵּר-אַתָּה עִמָּנוּ, וְנִשְׁמָעָה; וְאַל-יְדַבֵּר עִמָּנוּ אֱלֹהִים, פֶּן-נָמוּת.     15 And they said unto Moses: 'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'
    טז  וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה אֶל-הָעָם, אַל-תִּירָאוּ, כִּי לְבַעֲבוּר נַסּוֹת אֶתְכֶם, בָּא הָאֱלֹהִים; וּבַעֲבוּר, תִּהְיֶה יִרְאָתוֹ עַל-פְּנֵיכֶם--לְבִלְתִּי תֶחֱטָאוּ.     16 And Moses said unto the people: 'Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.'
    יז  וַיַּעֲמֹד הָעָם, מֵרָחֹק; וּמֹשֶׁה נִגַּשׁ אֶל-הָעֲרָפֶל, אֲשֶׁר-שָׁם הָאֱלֹהִים.  {ס}     17 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. {S}

    1. TrophyMan profile image65
      TrophyManposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Some interpretations are valid, some aren't.

      3300 years of scholarship and Torah commentaries that apply the 13 rules of biblical exegesis, along with an interpretation that all of traditional Judaism agrees (and has never waivered from) says what really happened.

      The Torah is short-hand and the oral Torah explains the written Torah.  There is no way you can read the written Torah and understand what it says without having the commentaries to explain it and expound upon it, hence Rashi, et als.

      For example, 'an eye for an eye' does NOT mean you take someone's eye.  It means you compensate the person the difference in price that selling the person as a slave would fetch in the marketplace for missing an eye, along with loss of work, pain and suffering, embarrassment, etc. if you injure someone's eye, etc. (back when they had slaves).

      Just one example.

  16. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    Speaking of GenEsis (thank funkle)

    Where did the birds come from?  The bible says they came from the water.

    How come it reads that the Sun and the Moon were placed in thier possitions after the Earth was placed in it's possition?  And the stars were formed when the Sun and Moon were formed but all still after the Earth?

    How come God creates Heaven and earth and then later He calls it Earth? 

    How can the earth be formless with darkness upon the surface of the watery deep?

    How come if there was no sun shinning on the Earth, could you see evening first and then day if  God first made light? Then a couple paragraphs later God commands the luminaries to shed their light to devide evening and day?  Since there was already an evening and day on the second day? 


    1. Misha profile image63
      Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Evolution yikes lol

      As for the rest -  I tend to think of those as allegories heavily distorted with translations that I can't decipher yet...

    2. TrophyMan profile image65
      TrophyManposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      "Where did the birds come from?  The bible says they came from the water."

      - They were formed from mud

      "How come it reads that the Sun and the Moon were placed in thier possitions after the Earth was placed in it's possition?  And the stars were formed when the Sun and Moon were formed but all still after the Earth?"

      - Everything was created on the FIRST day, and then G-D placed each object into creation on the specific day of the account of creation.

      "How can the earth be formless with darkness upon the surface of the watery deep?"

      - See above - everything has a body and a soul, including the heavenly bodies.  The 'souls' of each aspect of creation were all created on the first day, then G-D 'formed' the bodies on subsequent days of the creation.  Light was a creation, and darkness is ALSO a creation. 

      "How come if there was no sun shinning on the Earth, could you see evening first and then day if  God first made light? Then a couple paragraphs later God commands the luminaries to shed their light to devide evening and day?  Since there was already an evening and day on the second day?"

      - Time is a creation as well.  Time is counted as days, with day following night (a day starts after dusk, at the beginning of night, when 3 stars appear visibly in the sky, not at 12am ;-)

      There was a specific type of light that was created but after Adam's sin, G-D hid this light away for the righteous in the world to come, and visible light as we know it today is a highly attenuated and diminished form of light.  So the light from the Sun and Moon is this diminished light, whereas the original light of creation has since been hidden.

  17. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    Genesis 1:10

    Let the waters under the heavens be brought together into one place and let the dry land aprear.

    11: let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegitation bearing seed, fruit trees yealdig fruit according to thier kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth. 

    12: and so it was...

    14: let the luminaries come to in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between day and the night and they must serve as signs and for season and for days upon the earth.

    15: then it did...

    16: God proceeded to make the great luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night and also the stars.

    17: then God put them in the expance of the heavens to shine on the Earth.

    19...day four

    20: God went to on to say: Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expance of the heavens. 

    21:  and God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living sould that moves about, which the waters swarmed forrth according to their kinds and every winged flying creature according to its kind....

    I will continue later, after eveyone has carefully read this.  I say that evolution is evident in the Bible. 

    Evolution by definition:

    ev·o·lu·tion   Audio Help   /ˌɛvəˈluʃən or, especially Brit., ˌivə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ev-uh-loo-shuhn or, especially Brit., ee-vuh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
    –noun 1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane. 
    2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research. 
    3. Biology. change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift. 
    4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions. 
    5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine. 
    6. a pattern formed by or as if by a series of movements: the evolutions of a figure skater. 
    7. an evolving or giving off of gas, heat, etc. 
    8. Mathematics. the extraction of a root from a quantity. Compare involution (def. 8). 
    9. a movement or one of a series of movements of troops, ships, etc., as for disposition in order of battle or in line on parade. 
    10. any similar movement, esp. in close order drill.

  18. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    Essentially what I am getting at, is that the "We" in Genesis was not GOD and Jesus, it was water and whatever active force GOD is.  smile

  19. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    'for fear they would eat from the Tree of immortality and have their defects as a permanent aspects of human life.' Good one.
    Hadn't heard that one before. But apparently it would seem that the defects are a permanent aspect, or for what the whole Christ and 'original sin' bit.

  20. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    How can there be such a thing as a perfect human?  Obviously Adam and Eve had defects from the beginning. 

    I will ask again...

    how can they be considered "disobedient" if they did not know what it meant?  How could they accuratly with full knowledge know what death was if at that time they could not and did not experience it since Eve and Adam were still alive at this time there were no other humans?

    How could  Jesus be a perfect human if being a real human meant he was born in the original sin?  That original sin being 'death'. 

    This would mean he was not perfect.  If he could die he was in sin.  but no one knows what sin he did...why?

    How do you know that that mystical voice coming from the Garden was not Satan, and that the Serpent was not God telling Eve it was BS. 


    Genesis 1:11

    Let the earth cause grass to shoot forth, vegetation bearing seed, fruit trees yealding fruit according to thier kinds, the seed of which is in it, upon the earth, and it came to be so.

    Genesis 2: 5

    Now there was as yet not bush of the field found in the earth and no vegitation of the field was as yet sprouting, because God had not made it rain upon the earth and there wa sno man to cultivat the ground.

    Also, the name Jehovah (from the bible I am using at the moment) or LORD (in the other bible I have) does not appear until Genesis 2:4.

    There is a seperate entity named God.  GOD is GOD, not Jehovah God, no Yeweh God, no Jesus God. 

    All there is is GOD, darkness, and Water even before the creation of the heavens and the earth.

    Someone explain...

    1. TrophyMan profile image65
      TrophyManposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Here you go - right to the source:

      http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c … eishis.htm

      (Bereishis is Hebrew for 'Genesis')

    2. Jeromeo profile image61
      Jeromeoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      The question keeps coming up as to how were Adam and Eve considered disobedient?  Adam and Eve were [told] not to eat form the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.  They ate any way.  They knew they were told not to.

      You tell your child don't eat cookies before the have supper.  the child gets cookies form a friend and eats them any way.  Is this this obediance.  Yes.

      Not only were Adam and Eve created in perfection they were created in innocence.  Much like a new born child before it grows up and learns the ways of the world.

      You raise your child to believe in your family values and   you teach them right from wrong in a protective setting so that will grow up with a sense of integrity.

      When they grow up and are out on their own the teachings you have instilled in them help them to make the right decisions.

      So we have to suppose that if And And Eve had just obeyed God he would have instructed them in what was right and wrong.  As it turned out they sabatoged their own innonce by listening to Satan, and being disobediant.

      You tell you 6 year old child they can go accross the street to play with a neighbors child, you tell them that when they cross the street the must look both ways first.  Excited over playing with some toy the neighbor's kid has they disobey you, and try crossing the street with out looking both ways and they get hit. 

      They may have been innocent or not concious of the danger of crossing the street with ourt looking, but that won't bring back their good health.  If they die you loose any future oppertunity to teach them any thing else, about right and wrong, or obediance.

      God would have shared the knowledge of right and wrong with Adam and Eve, but they didn't give him a chance.

  21. Jeromeo profile image61
    Jeromeoposted 15 years ago

    Jesus was perfect in the sense that his father was God himself not a nother man.  Those his mother was human God was his father. 

    Because he was born in profection the same as Adam, and died, thoe he had not sinned death was no longer supreme over God's creation, and Jesus earnded the right to redeme whom ever he pleased or who ever his father felt lived up to the example he had set.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If Jesus was born perfect like Adam?  How?  I do see in the Bible, there is a description of two Adams the first and the last. 

      Can you explain?  smile

      Jesus describes himself as the first and the last, or the Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end.

      1. SparklingJewel profile image67
        SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        In the beginning, a pure Soul of the Father (Alpha) he came, as do we all; into the earth planes of "Mater" the Mother, he was born, as we all are; and in Mater consciousness of humanity, he raised his soul out of the human carnality, back to the belief state of purity in consciousness within the Mother/Mater earth state, One with the Father.
        Unlike your average Christian, it is my theory that Jesus had to live through many lives to re-learn to believe that he was One with God...he had to unlearn aspects of  human carnality until he could show the way out of carnality to others by being the example of Oneness...that the human "dieing",  was really a state of consciousness to overcome. But Jesus showed way beyond even that by literally dieing in his human body and then resurrecting in a new lighter body.
        To me the most important thing is the state of Christ consciousness that he exampled to let us know we could attain it also. And because he literally died so that we wouldn't have to literally die...but only "die" in the human carnal sense...until we attain our Christ consciousness.
        Jesus' teachings are symbolic for what our soul/spirit can do...transform into the Soul/Spirit of the Christ, out of the human carnality.

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          smile you really are a jewel, Jewels!

      2. Jeromeo profile image61
        Jeromeoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Though Jesus' was born of a woman, God was his father.  A procedure much like artificial insemination. So as we inherited sin from our father Adam, Jesus was born perfect by the genealogy of his Father almighty God.

        so the Two Adams were Adam the first man created and Jesus Christ the propitiatory sacrifice to redeem mankind from death.

        Alpha and Omega is actually God himself. the same term is  sometimes mistakenly applied to  Jesus because he was the first of creation, and the end of the reign of death, as a unstoppable, force in the lives of men.


        These are the names of the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet and are used as a title three times in the book of Revelation. The additional occurrence of this phrase in the King James rendering of Revelation 1:11, however, does not receive support from some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, including the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. It is, therefore, omitted in many modern translations.

        While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”

        The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.

        The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”

        The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image57
          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this


          I really think it is a good idea to keep scientific terminology away from your "beliefs."

          Jesus' divine conception did not require the divine sperm of god to impregnate a woman without touching her in any way. Nor did it require masturbation on the part of the male.

          Unless you are suggesting that god masturbated into a test tube, and the resulting sperm was injected into one of Mary's ovum by a doctor?......

          God is a wanker perhaps?

          1. Jeromeo profile image61
            Jeromeoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            If anything Mark, man's imitation of God's process, clumsy as it is, offers proof that we were "created" in God's image.

            Man's mind works because God created it, even though you won't admit it, even your personal genius is born of the same source as the rest of us.

            I do appreciate that you suggest I avoid confusion when I write, by not combining the two, but the truth is the light. 

            Stem Cell research, Cloning, all of these scientific wonders start with the wonder of creation, and God's transplanting his awesome qualities of  intelligence in us all, to one degree or another. 

            I find Mark, that people will search for [THE] truth and accept it once it reveals itself to them.  Others, claim to look for the truth, but they are really searching for that which supports their freedom...to feel as they do about what is and isn't true and reject or continue to question what doesn't fit, once the truth presents itself. 

            So I write to aid those who search with an honest heart for that truth which is directly related to  the "Salvation/redemption" that Christ's "sacrifice" offers.

            And when you think of it Mark, since God is spiritual, it would make perfectly good sense for the divine [sperm] to be pure energy, which it must have been in order to have been physically placed within Mary's, fallopian-tube/s and transmigrate to her womb. So I feel the  basic concept, of "much like" is sound.   

            I  do fully agree however, that God had no need to masturbate.  I reason that, [ONE] with the power to create trees that grow for centuries, existing in a Spiritual persona, would have no need for the "mechanic"s of producing sperm.

            Thanks for opening this up,

            1. Mark Knowles profile image57
              Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

              My pleasure. My point was, of course, that Jesus' conception as described in the bible is nothing like artificial insemination. big_smile  And is does no one any good to attempt to explain the bible in terms of scientific procedures and evidences. We already have a lot of people confused by thinking Darwin created a religion with his theories, so it is probably not a good idea to suggest Jesus was conceived using scientific methods.

              I imagine god needed no such devices or anything, he merely willed it to be so and hey presto! a virgin birth. I do think he could have gone to a little more trouble with the accommodations available, but that would spoil the story.

              And as for the easy acceptance of such a thing in a day and age where women were stoned for adulterous relationships - no comment smile

              And as for god being wholly spiritual - this  leads to all sorts of mix ups when people begin thinking he is an actual person, or actually exists in the way some people seem to think he does.

              Truth - yes - interesting observation. My truth would appear to be radically different from yours. I am free to select from any number, whereas you are limited to just the one - and it is wrong. Oh well........

  22. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    If Jesus was perfect how could he really understand sin?

  23. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    ROFL and LMAO

    1. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      That is what he said, I thought. lol

  24. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    "Jesus describes himself as the first and the last, or the Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end." If I was saying it, I would mean: one person, by virtue of one body, and every person, by virtue of the similarities of all human existence.

  25. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    Maybe the virgin marry was a hermaphrodite?  Maybe she was a-sexual?

    1. SparklingJewel profile image67
      SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Na, she was just a virgin! smile but one who had consciously chosen to keep her God given energy in a pure state of flow from God through her meridians, chakras and physical body organs and systems. This "open flow" is what allowed the "God-seed" to be "implanted" within her womb.

      Anyone can re-create this open flow of God's energy within themselves and regain the purity they once had...but it is a disciplined devotion. Each human being can work on getting back to that state of purity, it is not impossible, but it is a sacred and difficult path to follow. But then again each person has attained a degree of that purity and can attain more so of it...and so we re-create (give birth) to souls that are similar and can learn to do better for themselves in life because of our devotion.

      1. Jewels profile image83
        Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        I'm more inclined to believe that Mary was pure of heart and as such was referred to be in a virginal state.  It had little to do with the procreation of Jesus. Jesus was born of a woman of pure heart and mind.  Even if her chakras and meridians were open and flowing, the God seed - just how does that work? Hey presto!

        We may be able to recreate an open flow within ourselves to experience the feeling of divinity, but as far as creating another human being on our own with absolutely no outside influence is currently beyond our physical capabilities.  And I personally have no doubt the virgin Mary was not able to do it either.

  26. knolyourself profile image61
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    The virgin birth story gives to jesus a non-human direct descendency from god.

  27. profile image53
    madmacposted 14 years ago

    If the Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth than that would mean that their children had children and so on. But the bible teaches that incest is a sin, so somewhere along the way God decided that it's not ok anymore to procreate with your sister but you can with I beleive anyone after the 3rd cousin as the bloodline is weaker. Isn't that what evolutionists were condemed by the religions for? They said we were created from apes and yet somewhere along the line we stopped so that would mean some apes turned human and others didn't. If I'm not mistaken wasn't there another women created before Eve but they [Adam and God] decided to get rid of her I beleive because she had a mind of her own and then made Eve from Adams rib. So that she may serve Adam as the bible teaches that women should remain half step behind man. That bible protrays women as non-people they have to play the servant role . Because of that thinking women are still treated like that today, I am a 50 yr old man and am offended that people use this book to teach anything. The book says that Jesus was sent to die for our sins [ sins I might add that were created by God himself] and to teach us about God yet whenever he was asked a question about God or the way things are, he always answered in parable and stories leaving whomever asked the question even more confused. So when Jesus [God] left for heaven what did we actually know about God except he was alpha and omega? Where are the teachings and records of what the 12 apostles did or did not do after God left? I havne't been able to find any record of what Jesus looked like yet there are images of a white man everywhere. The bible teaches that idoltry is a sin yet Catholics have statues and images that are kneeled in front of to say prayers. The Vatigan [Catholics] discommunicate a priest for speaking out against some church teachings yet will give sancuary to mass murders and priests that rape children. God teaches that he will not enter manmade temples and goes as far as giving instructions to his desiples on how to construst a place for people to come and worship. Yet he teaches that where 2 or more people gather in his name he'll be there. He won't enter man made temples yet he'll be wherever 2 or more people are? Confusing, you ask any priest about anything you are confused about in the book and you will get "God works in mysterious way] why not just say we have no idea? In essance we have no actual idea of who or what God is, and how do we know that what Consantine and the romans interpeded from the scrolls was fact they could be wrong. Oh yes you have to have faith

    1. profile image0
      jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Oh my goodness; how funny.  I didn't get pass your first couple of sentences.  But are you kidding me? 

      It is a known fact that the Motorolla(sp) International Corporation, was founded by a man who was a Star Trek Trekkie.  The Founder and CEO of the world's largest mobile phone company, got the idea of Cell Phones from the Tri-quarter.  You know that walkie-talkie thing they used to talk to each other when someone was on a planet???  It is also a known fact that HE invented the blue tooth tech. and ear piece based off episodes of the show when crew members would communicate with one another by pressing the Star Trek badge on their uniform. 

      You never know where one will attain their knowledge to change the landscape of the world.  Knowledge gathered from Star Trek episodes has forever changed the course of World History.  That was his source of knowledge.  It isn't your place to suggest censorship based off your own personal opinion of a subject.  That is what your doing...  CENSORSHIP!  Bad, bad, bad, idea.  Shall I go and torch my library becomes I have a copy of Huckleberry Finn?

      So you don't like the bible.  Okay.  Why should that matter to me?  Did the bible reach out from under your bed and bite you again???

      People please do NOT promote CENSORSHIP based off an opinion.  The bible is FICTIONAL.  But it is a good read, with a lot of sound advice, notions and ideas.  If a Star Trek Trekkie can gather knowledge that changed the course of the world; you can harness in your own personal feelings and be a more effective, smarter, peaceful person because of it. 

      Use your head people not your heart!

      1. profile image53
        madmacposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        I have just joined this hubpages in the past 24 hrs and after reading your [jgrimes331] responses to my comments have read back a week or 2. Judging from your responses to the various topics you don't seem to take any of them seriously. As you stated you never read my comments so how could you do so. I assure you that millions take the bible seriously whether you think it's fictional or not. As for your comment about sensorship, I don't advocate it at all although judging from the music tv and movies.... As I said I was a practicing Catholic so to speak for 45 of my 50 years that is until 5 years ago when I stopped going through the motions as most Christians do and actually sat and READ the bible and LISTENED to the teachings. I'd hate to think of what would happen if people actually paid attention to the book and it's teachings. We might be better off without organized religion, I can't imagine it being worse maybe just maybe we would then start believing in each other.

        1. profile image0
          jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Touche...  Seriously though, should I burn my copy of Huckleberry Finn?

          I do take matters seriously.  But I do like to reflect a different light to them.  It sounds to me like you have a harsh view and a sorrow filled bitterness against being Catholic, or maybe the teachings of the Catholic bible.  Maybe someone inflicted pain upon you in the name of God? That wouldn't be the bible's fault, it would be the humans fault.  It is not my intention to breathe a sense of bitterness into your threads; however, it seems to be an underlying element to your opinions of the bible.  Is that bitterness, blinding you from reading any positive cognizance?  Or simply said, after you read the bible, you were left with the impression to steal, murder, and hate?  Seriously, I'd like to know.

          1. profile image53
            madmacposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Hello jgrimes331, thanks for the message you sent me and for the record I have no bitterness toward the bible. If people choose to believe in it I won't condemn or judge them, all I'm asking is why? Why does anyone feel that they have to believe in any religion to get through life? When my neice was about 7 she went to church to be confurmed or whatever they do when your given the candle etc. There was a Bishop serving mass for this occasion and he asked the little boys and girls what happens if they don't accept the body of Christ. He was given several answers and 1 girl spoke up and said, "you won't enter the gates of heaven" he responded "that's correct" if it had not been for my Aunt grabbing my arm and sitting me back down I would have asked him what right did he have telling these young children something like that. In otherwords all other people or religions that don't do this according to him are going to hell. This is someone higher in rank so to speak than a priest saying this. That is my point we are taught this garbage everyday by 1 sect or another. You said that your children, husband and yourself are all different religions, again I don't mean to judge you and your families choices and sincerely apologize if I offend you or them , I would like to ask you personally if I may  why? I know you'll most likely say choice but again why make believing in any of those sects or any other a choice? At the risk of repeating myself again, why can't we all just go through life accepting others for their faults and believing in each other? Why is it easier to have faith in a religion but not in each other? There has been more people killed in the name of 1 sect or another than any feeling of hate or envy. It has been my experiance that most people that believe in religion are hypercrits. Why?

            1. profile image0
              jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

              Good eve MadMac!  I was just getting ready to go to bed.  I'll see you on this thread tomorrow okay?  Excellent questions by the way! Night-Julie:)

              1. profile image0
                jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Good Morning MadMac!
                Wow, I have to say you have asked me personally, some really excellent questions and truly difficult questions.  I am a tad afraid to be so vocal in this forum, but what the heck, my answers after all our just that- mine....smile

                That Catholic Church does enforce the idea of "HELL" onto followers of Christ and to lay-people as well.  Southern Baptist, First Christian, Methodist, Assembly of God, etc., churches are just as guilty (I'll add) in making people feel doomed.  First and fore most I do not believe in hell.  I believe there is a level of heaven that is for condemn souls, but it's not a place of "Fire and Brimstone".  I just wrote a hub, "The First Eye-Witness".  This hub speaks of a man names Enoch that once walked this earth.  The accounts of his life date back to the 10th Century BC.  His book was found amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls.  When they discovered this scroll, and when I was old enough to understand it, I was THRILL at what it had to say.  Enoch describes the many different levels of heaven.  (I know the Mormons have a belief similar to this, but.....  I don't believe like they do.)  I have always thought that our Heavenly Father, if he's really powerful as they say, wouldn't have allowed an arch angel(that he created) become as powerful as he.  That would be stupid, don't you think?  So I never bought into the "Devil" aspect.  I think of hell as more of a holding area, purgatory to me is the highest level of wondering souls that God hasn't judged yet.  I have often thought of hell as being a level of the heavenly cosmos.  I believe the first four levels of heaven are what most humans call "hell".  I don't think it is an underworld.  I believe VERY much that "hell" is in heaven.  Nobody can tell me otherwise.  Because then what was the purpose to send his only son (Christ) to be a man upon the people of this earth.  If "God" had lost his grip on humans and Satan was becoming more powerful than him- then why not full blown Armageddon?  Can you see what I'm saying....  The arch angel, Lucifer, is not as POWERFUL as God!  God made this AAngel in the time of the Aeon's.  Lucifer serves a very powerful purpose in the big scheme of things, but is he God like?- no!  He is just an arch angel like Michael and Gabriell.  When one can free themselves from the fear the Catholic Church & some Protestants Churches have FOREVER drilled in our young minds- ONLY then, are we truly open to expand our minds and horizons.  ****This is one reason I am not afraid for my non-believing family members souls.*****
                MadMac:  I don't believe the Christian, Torah, or the Koran to be the Holy works of God.  I believe it to be a work of fiction.  When you are able to think on that level, I feel a person is able to retain more in terms of research, understanding, compassion, love, empathy, and tolerance.  I have 5 Holy Bibles I research from.  My favorite being my sisters 8th grade Catholic Bible.  She is 29 now.  But I feel that book explains the history of a region and gives definition to words used.  I use 1 Hindu book of scripture, 3 Buddhist books-2 on scripture and 1 on mediation and prayer, and I use my Gnostic Gospels book.  Out of all of them, it is my favorite reference material to study.

                I know this is getting rather long so I'll try to cut things short.

                I do "allow" (if you will) my family, particularly my boys the freedom of choice.  Christ said our job as disciples was to go out and spread his word.  NOT CRAM IT down peoples throats.  My children know quite clear where I stand, what I believe and doctrine in which I try to live my life by.  (A lifestyle I haven't mastered yet on hubpages.lol)  But in my day to day life, I am taking baby steps towards being more Christ-like, Buddha!

                I'm don't feel it is my place in this world to push my beliefs off unto others.  When people first meet me often times  #1) They are too shocked by this that they can't help but to start out the gate, both barrels locked and loaded.  I recently had this experience with another hubber in the religious forum.  This hubber couldn't believe and wouldn't allow herself to believe I was asking peaceful questions.  By her first 3 very aggressive defensive threads, I could she that she thought I was a stero-typical Christian- rude, hateful, fanatical, extreme fundamentalist!  #2) Or most people think I'm not serious,smile(see you weren't my first person to think that).  #3)  That there is no way a Christian can believe like I do.
                I am so polar opposite of most Christians.  I adamantly believe my husband, my atheist son and my Christ-like son-  will all be in heaven.  We'll we see each other, I don't know...  I'm NOT the judge of that.  So how would I know?  I don't even know what's to be seen in heaven.  If in a past life have seen it, I don't remember it.

                When it comes to sin, I believe along the lines of Confucius and his disciple Mencius.  Like Mencius, I have forever believed that a person is born with a pure heart.  People aren't inherently evil or sinful.  The environment that surrounds them and their unique journey in this lifetime- is what creates them to commit sin.  The Holy Bible and numerous of Priests, Preachers, Rabbi's, Buddhist Monks, etc... That God created man with FREE WILL!  Well, does it make any sense to give man free will if you have already poisoned him with ORIGINAL SIN?  I have always believed that that was a crazy notion!  We were born unto this earth with free will and a pure heart.smile That's how I believe.  My atheist son's heart is purer than mine.  If the two of us were too die today in a car crash, I firmly believe my son Eddie would be placed in a much higher level than I would. 

                So Madmac, I would love for you too check out a few of my hubs and tell me what you think.
                I highly recommend reading the Gnostic Gospels, the Book of Enoch and Awakening the Buddha Within......          For centuries man has ruled man.  Fear is always the common denominator.  What better way to scare someone into believing particular way, other than Fear itself.  Fear.  Fire and Brimstone and devilish pictures of Satan- my God, who wouldn't fear that as a young child.  Many adults still live in fear because of it.  Christ didn't fear Lucifer.  Christ says to put your faith in God- fear not and fear no more.   I don't fear hell.  Why should I?  Especially with my belief system.   I do live my life in fear of the outside world.  But what's too fear?  It is still crippling to me; however, with the scriptures and teachings from the books I listed above, "The only thing I have to fear is fear itself."-John F. Kennedy and I am learning to cast aside some of those fears and adventure out.  Hubpages were my children's idea for me to start slowly into my adventure.  I had forgotten so much about what it takes to be a human in a community- that the fact I'm still here is amazing.  Is that a miracle from God?  No, but by following Christ's doctrine I wouldn't be here today.
                I hope this helps.  If I missed the point or didn't answer your questions properly.  My apologies for the rabbling.smile

                The biggest help for me in this life has been the compassionate doctrines of Jesus Christ.
                The first Buddha did fore tell his coming after all.

  28. Lady Guinevere profile image69
    Lady Guinevereposted 14 years ago

    You all are using God and a simgular person when it clearly states that Adam was made in "OUR" image--there be more than one there.  Funy how that has changed with teh ten commandments to be No Other God before thee--how many thee's?  What happened to the rest of "OUR" images?

    1. profile image0
      jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Duly noted...  Whose to say how many thee's or images.  I guess that is for someone who believes the SciFi portion of the parables that make up the bible.

      1. Lady Guinevere profile image69
        Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        It also occured to me that if One God is the Jealous Godthen wouldn't it make sense that he may be the wrong God to believe in?  Wouldn't he be something like a Satan that takes all the credit by instilling fear of worshipping him instead of the real God and who is that if there were many others?

  29. Lady Guinevere profile image69
    Lady Guinevereposted 14 years ago

    Another thing about the Earth being made last in the scheme of things---The Early church fathers thought everything revolved around the Earth.  Least we forget what happened to Galileo and why he was almost put to death and also Columbus who both knew the world was round and not flat.
    We know different now, but the Bible hasn't changed to reflect that.

    1. profile image0
      jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Lady Guinevere, I really do respect your view point and perspectives.   You bring an enlighten air into a subject line.  You really know how to encourage the mind to dig deeper into a reasoning.

      1. Lady Guinevere profile image69
        Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        I am not ignoring you, just not sure what to say............thank you..........

  30. Lady Guinevere profile image69
    Lady Guinevereposted 14 years ago

    You should NEVER be afraid to speak your mind and what is in your heart.  Although I get alot of backlash from those who seem to think that they know everything and that everything they don't understand is something of Satan, I am not afraid.  Jesus is in me and in all of us.  I  thank you very much for thta hub of yours and for speaking of your mind and experiences.  I would love to read more from you.

    1. profile image0
      jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Oh Stop it Lady!big_smile  You're making me blush...

      Thank you.  If it would be okay, I could comment about Lilith, Adams first wife.

      1. Lady Guinevere profile image69
        Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        If I were you, I would make a hub of it and post the link here.  Not many "Christians' are ever taught about Lilith.  They think that Eve was the ONLY women in the beginning.  Oh they will say that she is evil, but God didn't make anything evil at that point in time-----or really any point in time.

        1. profile image0
          jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Good idea.  I'll get to work on that.  Thanks once again!smile

          1. Lady Guinevere profile image69
            Lady Guinevereposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I sent you a private email.

        2. profile image0
          jgrimes331posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          If anyone is curious about Lilith, Adam's first wife.  Check out this hub:

  31. Lady Guinevere profile image69
    Lady Guinevereposted 14 years ago

    Someone please post something about Lilith here!!

    Did you also know that all of the miracles that Jesus did are not in the Bible and it says so?  Did you also know that we wil do more and greter miracles then did Jesus?

  32. Jerami profile image58
    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    When God created Adam an Eve he knew before he started that he wanted for them to have free will. Imagine for a moment that You built a robot. It is to have free will. How would you know if your experiment was a sucess unless your robot were to disaby you. If it always obeyed you, yoy would not know if you sucessfully built it according to your wishes. Disobedience was a necessary ingredient that the lord built into Adam and Eve. Therefore proving to all of Humanity that the creation does have a choice. For this reason alone, every person on the earth KNOWS that WE are free to choose. This is the true question.

  33. Pete Maida profile image60
    Pete Maidaposted 14 years ago

    Just looking at it as a story; it was definitely a set up.  God never gave Adam and Eve the ability to resist the power of Satan.  How else was God going to get humanity started?

    1. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Good point its all his game .

    2. Jewels profile image83
      Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It could have taken a whole different direction than the one it did.  This act created the fallen state.  Imagine being able to see ones reflection and not be separate from a divine source.  The tree of knowledge, eating of the knowledge was the beginning of separation, seeing self in the same image but separate.  Adam/Eve was the myth of male/female polarities.

  34. Jerami profile image58
    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    God created Adam and Eve to have free will. If they had not exersized their ability to disobay. God would never know if they in fact did have free will. It they had not disobayed the experiment would have been a failure.

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      So what your saying is, god meant for people to die, end of story.

      1. onthewriteside profile image59
        onthewritesideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        God lied.  The story continues in Genesis 3-22:  Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" --

        It wasn't that they would "die" but rather that they would become "empowered" with the knowledge of the "Gods".  He didn't want that.  But like any child who is told, "Don't touch that stove, you'll burn yourself!" and yet does it anyway, Eve said, "Screw you Sky-Daddy!".  And with that, we became the smart-azz biotches that we are today...  lol

        1. profile image0
          sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I thought that was what Satan says to Eve... that if she eats it she will become like god.

          So god says, if you eat it you will surely die.  Satan says, you will not die.

          god says, I will give you my son Jesus to make up for you sins so that you will live forever...

          I wonder who was telling the truth.  After all as the story goes.  Jesus died for the sin of man and it looks like Satan already knew, didn't he? wink

          1. onthewriteside profile image59
            onthewritesideposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Well Christians have equated the serpent to "Satan" but the OT never says that...it just says serpent.  Coincidentally, the "serpent" or "snake" was a symbol of Enki, the Sumerian God of the Abzu (or African nations, including Egypt).  His brother, Enlil, was the Sumerian ruler over the biblical lands, (Mesopotamia), and the two did not get along.  It makes sense that the authors of the bible would have pitted the followers of these two against one another.

      2. Jerami profile image58
        Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             What I am saying is that the Lord knew that Adam and Eve were going to use their free will in this matter.I am saying that things did go the way that God had intended. God was not suprised.  Also, when God came to the garden and called, "Where are You" He already knew where they were, and what they had done.  Things were going according to his plan, and things are still going acording to his plan, What ever that is I certainly do not know.  And yes, God intends for people to die. How else are to reach our final destination

  35. SweetiePie profile image83
    SweetiePieposted 14 years ago

    Alrighty then, I think people are just taking religion too seriously.  If you believe in the Bible great, if you do not great too. No need for either side to demand that others see it their way.

    1. Paraglider profile image89
      Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree. Religion is a pastime, like hill walking. We hill walkers don't demand that everyone should join us. In fact, we'd hate it!

      1. Jewels profile image83
        Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Yes, far too much talking.  Would prefer to enjoy the view in peace and quiet.

    2. profile image0
      wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I hear that, I really do.  But, it's the preachy, you must repent or you'll go to Hell drivel that I vehemently oppose.  Perhaps the religious fanatics could omit that threat/message and I'd be more willing to have a rational discourse.  It starts as a reasonable discussion (on my part) and quickly erodes into me going to Hell, needing to repent, and being driven by satan because I don't see it their way.  This cuts to the core of the problem for me.

      1. SweetiePie profile image83
        SweetiePieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        Actually what I said is not preachy at all, just my opinion.  It is better not to make assumption about other people.  Whereas I have commented on the politics forum knowing people would not agree with me, I refrain from the religious discussions because the two extremes here just do not amuse me.  Some people like to argue politics, and others religion.  Implying that people speak drivel is a little ridiculous.

  36. onthewriteside profile image59
    onthewritesideposted 14 years ago

    What is it with Usmanali and the Freemasons anyway??!!  The free masons I know here in the US are some of the best people I've ever met.  The organization itself is basically nothing more than a fraternity, and they do some very charitable work in our community.  Usmanali needs to quit spending so much time in the caves listening to Bin Laden's rhetoric and join the 21st century...

    1. profile image0
      wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you.  I might SCREAM if I hear that word one more time.  mad

    2. mohitmisra profile image59
      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      God knows what his problem is and he claims the Freemasons are after him and so for security reasons he is not putting up his snap, his face.
      In India I know some Freemasons who are really good guys and you have some of the most respectable doctors, lawyers etc as Freemasons.

      1. profile image0
        wordscribe41posted 14 years agoin reply to this

        It's starting to make sense to me as a mental health professional.  He has:  paranoid personality disorder.  That's sad, actually.  Explains the freemasons obsession.

        1. JonTutor profile image60
          JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          @Wordscribe You've correctly diagnosed... Usmanali go get some treatment now. lol

    3. JonTutor profile image60
      JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      My thoughts exactly.... He could be a product of  Pakistani Madrasa.  smile

  37. eccles profile image59
    ecclesposted 14 years ago

    I really csn't understand why people still take the bible so seriously. Surely by now it should be obvious that the bible is just a book of fiction and a bad one at that. As A scientist I do not accept the idea of a creator/god. It is not logical. Now that we know how the Universe is made and that matter/energy can not be created nor destroyed that takes care of the story of the world being made in 6 days.

    Some people think the bible was written by god. If it was why did that god get the timing and sequence of events in the formation of the Earth wrong.

    For those who don't know the Solar System formed along with the Sun 4.5 billion years ago. It was a long time before the Earth cooled enough for it to solidify, an atmosphere to form, water to appear. Life came from the Universe in the form of the building blocks of life, primordial molecules of life THey landed in the Earth in Comets and Meteors. Then it took several million years befor animals evolved and millions of years before home sapiens walked the Earth. Good bye to the BS about Adam and Eve. They NEVER existed.

    1. Jewels profile image83
      Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I think it's called ignorance and fear

  38. gamergirl profile image86
    gamergirlposted 14 years ago

    Err, I don't think wordscribe was accusing you of being preachy here, Sweetiepie.  I believe she was referring to the dozens of other preachy types who've come into and out of the religion forum.

  39. SweetiePie profile image83
    SweetiePieposted 14 years ago

    Surely I hope so.  Anyway, it was just my reply back to what she said.  No biggie.

  40. gamergirl profile image86
    gamergirlposted 14 years ago

    Well, since you don't post "believe or you'll go to hell" type things, I don't know why you'd have thought she was pointing fingers at you in the first place.  You're fine. tongue

  41. profile image53
    abidemishyposted 14 years ago

    i see no reasons people should be disturbing on religion leave people alone u can't make decition for people


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