How Ignorant Are We?

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   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   This is a question for the died in the wool, 'there is absolutely nothing more, end of story' bunch. You have a firm belief that science has negated every reason to question the possibility of the spiritual.
   
   We have no concrete evidence for, or against, the belief in an afterlife. Which you claim means, definitively, that there is none.
   
   My question is; since 95-96% of the universe is described as 'dark' by science, how do you consider your belief to be an open-minded and logical conclusion?

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      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      No reasoning do it.
      Before you can be against something, first you must prove it exists in the first place. See how reasoning works.
      No reason,  states that there is no greater likelihood of an afterlife than pink unicorns. Not to mention, having a belief in an afterlife, means they don't actually value this life they are living, because all their actions are selfishness and based on the reward of said afterlife. Thus, they lack character and understanding.
      Keeping an open-mind does not including keeping it open to nonsense or things that are not needed. To do so, only damages one's life.
      
      
      Edit: Everyone is ignorant in some capacity. No one if perfect.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         That is exactly what I am talking about, to some degree. You consider it unreasonable to postulate the possibility. But your statement is opposed to the actions involved in reason.
         
         Without complete information available you can't expostulate so vehemently, unless willing to take your conclusions on faith.
         
         "I don't think so" is the closest we can come to a  reasonable negative statement at this point; if all of the anecdotal evidence is determined to be unreliable.

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            recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Why do you post using so many words you clearly do not know the correct meaning and use of ?  It is just like reading the religious threads from the fundies, full of thee thou and thine.
            
            The unknown is the unknown so there is little to say about it except that we know it is there - this was worked out long ago and in Chinese writings from around 3000 years ago.

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Tell me, oh wise and considerate swami. What words do I not understand? Many things have been unknown across the years. Had we not gone in search of answers we would be much less enlightened than we are today.
               
               I assume, by your statement, we should bow to the thought police and question nothing. Sorry, no can do.
               
               I see you have obtained your died in the wool opinion from a 3000 year old source.  I find it helpful to glean information from more up to date sources also.

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                  recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Going in search of answers requires that you can ask the questions - posing questions that have already been answerd more than satisfactorily thousands of years ago becasue you don't like the answers is a pointless occupation suited only to a pre-determined agenda that is trying to pseudo-prove that the weirdo stuff you believe has any basis in reality.
                  
                  Muddling up the wording you use is just to muddy the water of your questions and answers, or represents your thinking.
                  
                  I am not a swami, I am an English teacher and so qualified to comment on your wording.
                  
                  How you fathom that I am suggesting that you bow to anyone and stop questioning I don't know - however you do need to go back to school to get the basics before you try higher levels.

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                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Your opinion that questions have been answered satisfactorily is an opinion. Not one that must be automatically agreed upon by others.  Attempting to pretend otherwise does not change the facts.
                     
                     Why you might attempt to insult the level of education, or intelligence, of someone you are in disagreement with is another conversation entirely.

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                        recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        I did not insult your intelligence, just your level of education.  You clearly bypass basic facts, well proven theories, more than well answered questions, uncountable previous discussions about the points you try go back over that have been clearly answered by many others to the satisfaction of pretty much everyone.
                        
                        You seem to be an atypical example of religious types with a 'belief' that they are trying pseudo-prove retrospectively.  If I am wrong about this then I apologise.

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Apology accepted.

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                              recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              So you disagree with your opening staement, good, it is about time that a misplaced belief system was seen by its promoter as false.

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 You have misread.I stand behind the opening statement

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                                    recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Ahhhhhhhh ! then you are "an atypical example of religious types with a 'belief' that they are trying pseudo-prove retrospectively."   Thought so

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                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Interesting, because I perceive you as no different from the atypical religious type; with the exception that you are embarassed to admit you  are living by faith.  You are laboring under the assumption that there is enough information available to make a determination, one way or the other.

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                                          recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                          Not at all - I am open to any information, proof or a good theory with any kind of verification.  The ideas that you appear to subscribe to have no foundation in anything, no verifiable evidence - not even a theory that stands up to scrutiny.
                                          
                                          AS to information - I have hubs about the failure of logic in human affairs due to an almost total lack of information, never mind enough.  part of my argument is that starting a logic thread at a random point leads to the author believing logically in things that are illogical if they had only started at an earlier random point,
                                          
                                          you know,
                                          
                                          like a religion that starts with a bunch of displaced zealots writing a load of stuff that is partly re-recorded, bias-edited and then fabricated into a different story by a Jewish roman tax collector who was rejected by the original story-tellers as being an obnoxious attention seeker who claimed divine intervention as his excuse for countering their original story.

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            Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It is unreasonable to postulate the possibility? What possibility?
            Emile, it isn't opposing actions involved in reason. The possibility of a god existing is non-existent. It's people's refusal to understand that, because they have convinced themselves that they "need" a god for some irrational reason.
            Without complete information available? You must think there isn't enough information available to rule anything out? Ironic. But, not surprising.
            Evidence is determined to be unreliable? Oh really? And, what evidence is so important that it has been unreliable? Please do tell? It appears as if they only thing YOU are doing is distorting what is already known. That's all.

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         Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Science shouldn't be adversarial to spirituality. Religion is a different bag. Religion isn't necessarily relative to spirituality. Spirituality isn't bound to organized religion. It generals no crusades, no jihads, spiritualty is a feeling, and not one where you gom about trying to browbeat others into your way. No ridicule, for that shows disrespect. Tried to demonstrate that. Geuss you don't get what you don't want to. A dictionary would help, and just because you THINK you know what a word means, doesn't mean you do. Also, when one offers data which is known, accepted, scientifically arrived at, don't ignore it just because of your preconceived ideas about what YOU believe the person offering the data is all about. Keep in mind Sir Newton was also a delusional christian mystic. And Nostradamus was also a medico during the black plague who was credited for developing lines of thought no one else was considering to battle the disease.

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      qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Emile:
      
      Haven't you considered that only the abjectly "ignorant" would conclude that science has "Absolutely" negated the "possibility" of the supernatural?
      
      Haven't you considered that most of humanity is "ignorant?"
      
      Haven't you figured out yet that about 35-40 of extant humanity is illiterate?
      
      WE humans are still babies in the crib!
      
      We are still searching, experiencing and learning.
      
      WE ARE an "ignorant lot!
      
      Qwark

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         What's that line from the old movie? "We may be ignorant, but we ain't stupid."
         
         We have ability to learn about anything we have the means to explore. But, if we ignore the possibility, we've lost the means.
         
         Good to know you're still searching and learning.

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            qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Emile:
            
            I, the forever pessimist, will be "searching and learning" Until I "pass."
            
            The possibility doesn't exist that within the next 50-100 yrs, life will get better for man.
            
            We are on a downhill slide and gaining speed. Who knows what awaits us at the bottom of the hill?
            
            Most likely a catastrophe.
            
            Qwark

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               Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Hey Qwark, you forgot to lead with "I'm a pessimist".

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                  qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  OK! Ok! Cags...I added it.
                  The "forever pessimist" hopes yer happy and that ya have a great week, altho it may turn out horrible....arghhhh  :
                  
                  QWark

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                     Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     QWark
                     
                     Although, I think you are getting better.

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                        qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Castle:
                        How could I get any  more "wonderfuler?"   lol Is that a word? Hell no! 
                        Qwark

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                           Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Endless school teacher

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               A catastrophe? I envision a party with streamers. And those little whistles that roll out when you blow them.
               
               Cheer up qwark. We've survived this long. We'll come up with answers before we annihilate ourselves. We always have.

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                  qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Emile:
                  Ya "forever optimist:  :
                  No doubt we'll come up with answers, but, as usual, they'll be the wrong answers.
                  WE are headed for   cat-ass-trophy!  ):
                  Qwark

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                     Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     For once, I have to agree w/ qwark. We have never come up with answers that didn't contribute to the overall problem...us. No great project to shoot asteroids out of the sky, no way to prevent hurricanes and tornadoes, no magical science to cork an erupting volcano, calm an earthquake or stop a tsunami. As always, we only invented the things which made our stay more comfy and fun. We don't even have a good way of leaving, and no where to go if we did. But, cheer up, nothings over until it's ALL over. AND: At this point, praying wouldn't hurt.

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                        qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        WEll! Ty Druid!
                        I'm not gonna pray or cross my fingers 'cause I'm not religious or superstitious.
                        Even "hope" will do no good.
                        Were on a sled headin' downhill and the incline is gettin' steeper!
                        If I'm alive when it happens, I hope there'll be enuf time to drop my head 'tween my legs and kiss my arse 'gbye!
                        
                        Qwark

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                           Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           My woodcraft is damn good. I can hunt and fish, forage and scavenge. I know how to track and trap. Provided I'm not already in the hereafter. Not superstitious either pally boy. When you think, you pray. It kinda works that way. Think of it as ESP, or like a communicator in your brain. It's the way we're wired. Best computer ever made.

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                              qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Aw, c'mon Druid!
                              
                              You know I don't mean "pray" in the religious sense.
                              
                              Yer not hitting me in the head with a bat and I'm pleading (praying) for you to stop.  (no religion involved) :
                              
                              Yep, it's slow but the human brain is the best computer yet conceived.
                              
                              If we survive long enuf, we will incorporate into a newly engineered human species, (a "supermensch") abilities far beyond that which we can imagine today.
                              
                              By that time, you and I may not even be memories.
                              
                              Qwark

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      kessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      When you do search for something, and you do not find it, wont you not then conclude you are searching in the wrong places?
      
      
      Why Instead you conclude that that thing  is not....?
      Or again, It is impossible to find....?
      
      Science religion are always searching in the wrong places therefore they do not find ...and whenever  they do find they inevitably report falsely...
      
      This is because they are ignorant from beginning......
      
      I say ignorance belongs to all who believe themselves to be of such....not because it is actually so but because they have made themselves so.
      
      
      I am knowledge, and all things are clearly seen...

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         Spirit Whispererposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Very nicely put and I am interested in the reaction your comment receives here if any.

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      Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It's not a belief, it's an understanding. The only way the spiritual could exist is if there was some force that over-ride the physical laws of our universe.
      
      
      
      Okay, then we need to make sure we give the very same validity of conclusion to every single belief ever conceived, including Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, to Thor and to Zeus, to leprechauns and unicorns, etc.
      
      
      
      Not sure what you mean by that, are you referring to dark matter and dark energy? These would simply be forms of matter and energy that do not violate physical laws. I'm not really sure if you're trying to make a relevant connection between forms of matter and energy to that of the spiritual claimed by believers.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         You are right.  That which we understand negates anything spiritual.  But, I don’t have any idea what ‘spiritual’ means to you.  I would think it would make a huge difference in what is considered possible and what is not.  I wouldn’t imagine ethereal beings interacting in our world possible.
         
         I didn’t really ask the question so I could expound on what I may or may not think.  It’s a simple question about the level of knowledge we think we possess, as opposed to what we honestly do.
         
         And Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, Thor and Zeus?  I wasn’t talking about gods, or other beings.  Why does everyone assume god when someone says spiritual? I would, of course, say no to the god concept, but I’d still be speculating.
         
         The only thing I am saying about dark matter and dark energy is the obvious.  It is a huge part of our world that we hardly know anything about yet.  I don’t think I’m trying to see a connection.  It would be an odd one, don’t you think? 
         
         All I’m saying is that we are still so ignorant, why would we feel the need to claim ultimate knowledge that we don’t possess?

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            Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It means 'imaginary' as far as reality is concerned. I can only go on what believers claim are spiritual.
            
            
            
            If they did, we would be able to detect them and know of their existence.
            
            
            
            So far, what we do know, which is considerable, agrees and compliments each other, physically and mathematically.
            
            
            
            It's just that they are all of the same category, invisible and undetectable, myth and superstition. 
            
            
            
            We know that it is just matter and energy that does not emit or reflect electromagnetic radiation. That's why we can't "see" it.
            
            
            
            We don't claim ultimate knowledge, but we do know when something that is claimed violates all of the knowledge we have, yet the claim has no evidence whatsoever to support itself or the violation.

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               ceciliabeltranposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               geez...pun intended.

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I don't understand how you could think 4% is considerable. And I think 4% gives us way too much credit at this stage of the game. We're sitting on one tiny little plant, in an entire universe. As this point,  I would think very little could be written in stone. I simply wonder why we're in such a hurry to wield the chisel.

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                  Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Where did you get than number?
                  
                  
                  
                  The universe is homogeneous and isotropic, so it stands to reason that whatever physical laws we discover in our part of the universe will be the same in every other part.
                  
                  Black holes being the one exception.

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                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I agree with you that it would only make sense to assume the physical laws we discover here would apply universally.  I don't think you quite understand my point, and that's OK.  I'm not that good at explaining myself. 
                     
                     So, let me ask you.  How much do you think we understand of it all?  What percentage is left to figure out? Do you honestly believe black holes are the one and only exception?  You think we've seen it all?

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                        Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        It would appear that you were trying to say that we only understand 4% of what there is to understand, which is why I questioned that number.
                        
                        
                        
                        We understand a great deal. So far, we still need to figure out a quantum theory of gravity (graviton), which should help with an understanding of the nature of matter. We are also looking for a Boson (Higgs) that would help complete the Standard Model.
                        
                        Other than those, there really isn't much more to figure out.
                        
                        Black holes appear to be the only exception to the laws of nature, however a quantum theory of gravity could solve that mystery.
                        
                        Black holes only have a couple of properties; mass, charge and angular momentum. All other properties of matter and energy have been squished out of existence by the intense gravity.

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Wow. You and I are so not on the same page. No wonder you had no idea what I was saying. You do realize until we can get up close and personal the universe remains a mystery? What you've covered in your post wouldn't even count as the tip of the ice berg.
                           
                           Don't get me wrong. We've made tremendous strides; but no. We are nowhere near the end of discovery. There're wonders past your stated horizons that are most likely beyond our ability to imagine at this point

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                              Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Your often right Beelzedad
                              
                              yet on the mystery of the unknown Universe we are all lost in space, Take every grain of sand on earth and it would be only a small fraction of the stars in the Universe, then consider the many planet around those stars,

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                                 Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 We even set a human foot on Mars, let alone found any life on another planet.

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 I think though, he's kind of saying ' if you've seen one grain of sand, you've seen them all'. And who knows? He might be right in the end.

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                                    Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Yes, in general everything is connected, yet to break down one soul its comes into millions of parts. How much do we even know about our brains. Did you know in one glass of water with sand there thousands of tiny living animal we can see under a scope

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                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       Sure, water is full of microorganisms. I try not to focus on that, though. And you've pointed out two other things that we still have a wealth of questions to unravel.
                                       
                                       It's fascinating how much is left to learn.

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                                 Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Uh-huh. And?

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                              Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Maybe to you it remains a mystery, but that doesn't apply to everyone.
                              
                              
                              
                              Such as what? If you make that claim, then you possess knowledge about the universe the rest of us do not. Explain what wonders that are "beyond our ability to imagine"?

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 You are now attempting to have some fun, at my expense.  That's OK. I've had my own laughs on this thread.
                                 
                                 I don't claim special knowledge. I do claim to attempt to keep things in perspective. If you truly believe that we almost know everything then, although I'm flabbergasted, it goes a long way in answering the question presented in the OP.
                                 
                                 Thank you for taking the time to clarify the 'died in wool' position.

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                                    Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    You are free to be flabbergasted and assert the dyed in the wool position. I am simply telling you what is missing in physics to explain how our universe works.

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                                       Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       I know. But you seem to think the study of physics is all there is to life. I don't quite understand how you have come to a conclusion like that,  but you were kind enough to attempt to explain it.

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                                 Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 I can't tell you what fish taste like if I have never eaten fish. You nor I can’t can imagine what fish taste without ever trying it., we are missing a few other senses to actually have the experience
                                 
                                 
                                 Our imagination is limited to how much experience we have had. How can you begin to imagine animals from other planet and what they look like when you have never seen such an animal, (unless you live in Hollywood or bible land's and paint a picture of a  seven headed dragon, just kidding)..
                                 
                                 
                                 Religious people tell me their tales from the Bible then tell me it's all God’s truth. I say you have nothing but thousands of hand me down miss information from centuries ago, no firsthand experience with very little or no science proof to back it up . It’s the same for hardcore atheist claiming there is 100% no God. Mean wail not one human has experience setting foot on another planet

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      DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I have always been curious of something...IF a person believes that when they die they will go to a place of eternal peace, happiness and paradise...Why is it we are so obsessed with living this human life for as long as humanly possible? Why do we fear death? Why do we mourn death? Why do we fear aging? Are we afraid that we might be wrong?

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         earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Well if you look at a dead person, it sort of says it all. I saw dead animals everyday as a kid. Come back later and it has been recycled by hundreds of other life forms. It always seemed natural to me, and logical too.
         
         You are reading a post written by worm food. (me)

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            kimberlyslyricsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            

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               earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Happy worm food I might add.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Yeh. I'd assume anyone who thought they were headed to a heavenly golf course would be chomping at the bit to get there.
         
         But, who wouldn't know that their assumptions could be wrong? It's all speculation. I personally don't think there's heaven in any manner described by religion; but I believe in eternal consciousness of some sort. Whether it involves an individual aspect, or we become one with the whole is what I wonder about.
         
         The point of the OP was simply that we are all wondering. There's no information available to  support or negate any thought by anyone on the subject.
         
         It fascinates me that there are those who stand staunchly behind their opinion, and declare others ignorant for not agreeing with them. Declaring anything fact, to me, is the definition of ignorant when it comes to this question.

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            aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            "It fascinates me that there are those who stand staunchly behind their opinion, and declare others ignorant for not agreeing with them. Declaring anything fact, to me, is the definition of ignorant when it comes to this question."
            Works both ways!

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Yes. It does. I think the far left atheists took it personally, without reflecting. Religionists to the right are just as likely to draw a line in the sand; as if they actually know something.
               
               I say, we're all ignorant. Keeping that in mind while we're talking it out might lead to a little knowledge for all of us.

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            DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Agreed!

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         Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Sure, nothing worse than showing up at a party and you weren't invited. I hear the place has a HUGE gate. Crash proof. Lotsa security. Lil angels flyin' around with bows and arrows.

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      Apostle Jackposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Because you miss the boat the boat of knowing about the afterlife,don't mean that everyone did.It is a personal experience.Everyone is not ignorant of life.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         A belief system does not equate to knowledge. You have no proof, therefore it is your hope. Your dream. Your opinion. Your faith. To state it as fact steps outside of the bounds of reality. It's difficult to take seriously.

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            Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Even after all those cool Star Trek movies and series. They were written so that people could envision the impossible, and, ahem "Make it so, #1" and Star Wars? Well, scratch star wars. Not even a christian could believe that. Ever read the entire "Dune" series? Chock full of religiousness and messiahs. My fav, though, is "Battlestar Galactica" with the ragtag survivors of the Cylon invasion looking for a legendary home...EARTH!!! Science fiction has a way of coming true. ODD. That is counter-intuitive. Some writers are downright uncanny.

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I loved Dune. And I've got my own radical opinions on what the ultimate reality is. I think they probably mirror yours in some ways, others not. But, even you have to admit these are our dreams. Built up by our take on what we've seen and heard; what we've read. How we've processed the information we've gained access to.
               
               I don't have any proof to offer to support my opinion. I honestly don't believe anyone does. Do you?

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            Apostle Jackposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Everyone is not suppose to believe nor except the truth.
            I don't have to prove to you that i am who i am in order to be who i am.
            It is as it was predestine to be.

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               Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               One day, and I hope I'm  still alive to see it, someone is going to invent a truth-o-meter and all of the people who 'know' so much about this impossible question are going to have to admit the truth. You don't know. And the rest of us might get an inkling as to why you all felt the need to pretend.

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                  Apostle Jackposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  You make yourself look bad telling me I don't know with the little knowledge that you have.You only have a speck,and children have more than that.

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                     Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Actually, my imagination is as fertile as any child I know. I do know the difference between imagination and reality. I respect your intelligence enough to think you do too.

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                        Apostle Jackposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        When you learn to respect your elders, especially  me ,you will be a lot better off.

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                           Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           I don't know that you have ever shared your age. Nor have I. What makes you think I'm not ancient?

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                              Apostle Jackposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Age carries wisdom.You either left it home,or lost it on the way....but you surely don't have it with you.Spirituality is also a measurement,you have none or very little which make your wisdom...just as small.

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                                 Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Well, thanks Apostle Jack.  When I started this thing my mission was to understand why the hard line atheist view felt so assured of their conclusions. But, right now, a line from the Addams Family keeps rolling through my head.
                                 
                                 
                                 'Has the planet gone mad?... I have seen evil! I have seen horror! I have seen the unholy maggots which feast in the dark recesses of the human soul! I have seen all this. But until today, I had never seen *you*! '
                                 
                                 Are there many more 'mystics' on this site?

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               recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               If you wrote in English you might be able to read it
               
               If you opened your mind you might understand that nobody knows the unknown,this is not a difficult concept. 
               
               If you think that being old should naturally get you respect you have been waiting a long ignorant life for nothing. 
               
               If you think the arrogance of claiming yourself as an apostle is not duly noted then you are blind to your own failings.

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                  Apostle Jackposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I have been where you got to go you have a child's knowledge,you don't even know what you are saying,so don't expect others to.Spirituality is the key.

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   psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

   Science doesn't negate things, it just fails to support them.  the rest is a matter of temperament.  And any conclusion is a form of closing of the mind, whether religious, atheist or gnome-worshiping anarcho-veganism.  Vive la difference.

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Oui. I couldn't agree more.

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         Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Nor could I, actually - psycheskinner's original response was BEAutiful!!!

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         Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Or its a matter of asking this question perhaps.
         
         Would there be any Science to discuss if someone didnt first create it.
         
         If no Creator is acknowledged ,then it exists regardless of what anyone thinks.
         
         My brain tells me my first statement makes more logical sense.

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            Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Then, who created flying purple dragons? We can discuss them, too.
            
            
            
            You mean, regardless of their religious indoctrination, your statement does not include thinking.
            
            

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               Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Dragons sure He made them all

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                  Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I like the seven headed horny red dragon, he is the most popular one of all, and too many people are afraid to ask about him.

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            Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Your brain may be as right as the next person's. Sometimes I wonder if alternate realities don't somehow overlap in a way we can't detect, and we're right in the reality we're ultimately grounded in. Just a giant spirograph  of infinite realities overlapping and growing; and wreaking increasing havoc.
            
            I'll say it for you. I'm certifiable at times. I just like to find scenarios where everyone wins.

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               Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Oh you sound like you have both feet on the ground and a delightfully  well developed sense of humour

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   Jeramiposted 12 years ago

   Everyones opinions are valid until a vote is taken.
   
      We just have to consider our location before we call or a vote.  Just kidding,  sorta?   Not!

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'm not at all certain I understood that.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I'm sure that you do/will
         
            I've been spunky enough for one day.
         
            Was 99 degrees today,  three hours after sundown it is still 84 degrees out  (9:06 PM)    going to grab a cold beer and go sit in tha COLD  spa   (80 degrees)  then probably lay on he couch and go to sleep.

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   Julie2posted 12 years ago

   I don't consider myself ignorant, I just have my own opinion. I keep that opinion to myself because others may view it as ignorant!
   AHHHHHHH

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That is your choice. The only ignorance involved in a conversation on the unknown is assuming another person more ignorant than oneself, in regards to the question. It's a level playing field, for the most part.

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   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   I am old enough to know that I know less than nothing, but I enjoy learning new things every day.
   
   Even the greatest minds on earth were the same. Ignorant of whatever they did not yet know.
   
   The secret to enjoying learning is to be able to change what you believe in the light of better information.

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      Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I know, the more I learn, the more I learn how little I know
      
      Emile
      Since 95-96% of the universe is described as 'dark' by science,
      I would update that to 99% unknown because human know less than 1% mass about the surface of the earth, like the skin of an apple.
      
      Imagine how many people think that the  other 99% mass underneath us on earth is hell,
      
      How Ignorant Are We

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I didn't realize some still believed the core of the earth to be hell. I always thought hell was here on the top side.  But, you are correct. Probably greater than 99% is still unknown. The more we learn, the more we realize there is so much more to understand.

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      qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Amen Earn!
      Wasn't it Aristotle who said: (paraphrase) ...the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know?
      That sure has been my experience.
      Qwark  :

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         earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         It was one of those smart dudes, I don't recall which one.
         
         It is very true though.

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            qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yep!
            I'm gonna hit-the-sac. It's midnite...time to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
            g'nite all  :
            Qwark

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               earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Sleep well Qwark, I enjoyed our exchanges.

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                  qwarkposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Ditto....:
                  
                  Qwark

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It would be nice to stumble across some better information on this question. Wait and see, seems to be the only option.

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6. 0

   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   I am not speaking of a god. Where did you get that? Step back and read the OP.  This has nothing to do with gods. I'm not certain I beleive in anything at all, although I am pulled toward the concept of man having some type of spirit. 
   
   But, the OP has to do with accepting the simple fact that to make a claim, either way, is a faith based move. How could anyone claim to be in possession of enough information to have an answer?

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      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If you're not talking about "religion" or religion's "philosophy" and/or "god", then WHY did you put this into the "religion and philosophy" category?
      
      Or did you not know- Hubpages does in fact have a "philosophy" category, under education and science? If you didn't know, well then, you now do.
      Pulled toward the "concept" of man having a spirit?
      
      Did you reach that belief on your own? If anything, you misunderstand human consciousness and attributing it to be something mystical, which it isn't.
      I guess this statement proves you don't understand your own life, much less grasp a bigger picture other than self. Thank you for showing that. It will help in further communications.
      Because, sane people don't disregard rationality for irrationality.

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Philosophy cagsil.  Look up the word.  While you are at it, take a journey into the R's and look up religion.  No gods required for all definitions of religion. Soooooo, it appears it can be here in this section.  If you have a problem, please contact Hub Pages.  If they agree with you I'm sure they'll move the thread.
         
         I'm becoming more impressed with the level of your knowledge by the minute.  You understand everything to do with human consciousness? 
         
         As to reaching beliefs.  None of us are an island.  We come to our beliefs and conclusions by what we read and what we think.  Again, I will state that we don't have enough information to form a conclusion, either way.  Hence, I am drawn toward, not inclined to believe.  I don't remember who said it, but 'A reasonable man can hold a thought, without accepting it as truth.'

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         Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Cag obviously isn't black, or Eric Clapton. Wouldn't know soul if it jumped out of him and ran away. BUT believes in love. Not unconditional, of course. Got lotsa conditions evidently. I think he's confusing lust for love. Honest mistake. Wait til his old lady is really an old lady. Cut the soul from us, and all that remains is an empty shell. Poison the soul and you get Charlie Manson

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            Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry, you shouldn't listen to me...I'm a mystic. Ask Cag.

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               Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Very few people in the history of the world have been pro claim a Mystic.
               
               If you’re a true mystic, I have thousands of questions to ask you

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   ahorsebackposted 12 years ago

   Just one  post here tonite , Yes ! How ignorant are we?  The truth is we are not so ignorant as we are  creatures of ignorant habits ,  I would never offend anyone here , but man!  You people sure like to dress up and go out for an argument, don't you, Sort of reminds me of a dog chasing his tail, and don't give me that  "I have a right to question reality ,don't I? Crap. Have a good night all.

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      Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      ahorseback
      
      This thread has asked for our human down sides, our ignorant.
      
      Please now, enlighten us now with our human upsides?
      
      Or write a thread on how enlighten human are or something to that effect.

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      recommend1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If an ignorant person posts ignorant nonsense under the title how ignorant are we  -  what else would you expect  ????   

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         Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Just looking for ignorant opinions. Seems I found a few.  Thanks for playing.

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         Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         recommend1 and Emile
         
         Come on you guys you no better or worst than the next guy, that includes me too.

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            Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I agree completely. I do, however, have a tendency to pick at know it alls. Bad habit, but it entertains me.
            
            This is not to imply you're a know it all. You seem down to earth about everything.

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               Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Don't butter me up too much, I may not able to live up to it,

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                  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  That's ok. Variety is the spice of life. You'd be bored if you were always easy going and down to earth. Occasional bouts of inflexibility are required to maintain your sanity and keep everyone else on their toes.

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   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   How ignorant are we?
   Read these threads and see.
   
   Ignorant by choice is almost a default.

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      DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      And you are being nice with your observation here...I just sit and shake my head sometimes at how stubborn some are, when it comes to learning something new. And others are so far gone, I don't even bother posting my thoughts, opinions or things I have learned.

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   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   I'm beginning to think one of our god botherers is having a lend of us here.
   
   Too far out to be in.

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    DoubleScorpionposted 12 years ago

    If you would like to learn alot about how certain christians act and are blinded by what they think they know....Enroll in a College Introductory Course on OT or NT like the link I posted. And see how others discuss and interact within the class...You learn so much more than just what the class teaches...

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       earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I completed a course in bible studies in the Hebrew Greek and English languages. It was intense, but informative.
       
       At the time I was a card carrying fully blown holier-than-thou born again lunatic who was as indoctrinated as many here still are. I eventual disentangled myself and got a real education.
       
       In the meantime, my indoctrinator absconded (along with the church minister) with the best part of a million dollars from the funds collected to build a senior citizen's residence.
       True story.

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          DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Ouch...I am working on completing a Masters in Religion (Have a Doctorate in Biblical studies). And maybe it is because I am taking classes at a Catholic College...but these students like to argue with the professor ( A PHD as well) and tell him he is wrong with what he is teaching, because it doesn't align with their faith...
          
          I enjoy learning about religion in general...All types...Facinating.

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             earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             I also enjoyed learning about religion. Not as much as unlearning it though.
             
             We had debates with all the other church leaders at monthly meetings when I was a member of CBMC (Christian businessman's Committee.) which was informative.
             
             We even got to see the dead sea scrolls through the director of the Institute of archaeology Clifford Wilson who was also a member.
             
             Getting out of religion takes a lot of guts. I was pressured, even in my business by religious fanatics who seemed to come out of the woodwork to halt my progress.
             It is like stepping out in the fresh air to leave indoctrination behind.

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                DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Oh I am not religious in the sense that most define it. I am definately not Christian. I have my own take on things. And there are those who enjoy listening to me talk about my thoughts...We support our community, Volunteer, and assist those in need and we all have Normal Jobs...We do "church" without the money. Matter of fact...I pay for just about everything myself...Or on occasion if we have a "bill" everyone chips in what they can to pay it off.

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                   earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   I have worked with the homeless within the church. Funny how the one's who care never mentioned their religion to me.
                   
                   In my city there are a lot of non-believers who offer to help others, it's not a religious thing it's a people thing.

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                      DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      We are agreed in these matters

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                         earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         Cool!

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                      Castlepalomaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      earnestshub it takes a huge heart to be effective with the homeless
                      
                      The city of Vancouver has this end homeless network.  I built a paper Crete tiny home design for the homeless project as my proposal, Too bad the hard legalistic out weight the health of the homeless people.
                      
                      Now, I had to switch to a greenie home project in the outback.
                      Still trying

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                         earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         Good for you! I believe that helping others is one hell of a task in a world bogged down by regulations.
                         
                         I'm proud to have met you.
                         
                         A home is all they need, but then it has to cost half a million so it doesn't upset town planning.
                         I say worry about town planning later, getting a roof over their heads should be priority one.

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                         Beelzedadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         Yes, we got serious problems here, don't we.
                         
                         Strange though, I just read an article in the Georgia Straight talking about how we pay the highest prices in North America for liquor because of all the government taxes and fees. In fact, it showed how a $5 bottle of wine costs us $12.
                         
                         

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