Growing up in the Bible Belt," in the region of the navel, I often heard the Bible referred to as "The Inspired Word Of God." I occasionally asked the speaker how they came by their information as to the truth of their proclamation.
Most would simply look at me as if I had committed one of the most dastardly acts possible in questioning their beliefs and say "Because it's the truth"! Of course, if you are reared in the navel, this is the typical response to any question which requires actual knowledge about the origin of myths and parables in the old collection of stories.
But even the preachers, who claim have at least a modicum of actual education in the origins of the tome and its present form, have no actual answer to the query. Who decided the Bible was God inspired? What qualifications did they have for making such a controversial statement? Who vouched for their veracity, or their unquestionable ability to decide this statement was indeed true?
Apparently the writers did. They seemed to be vouched for in the days which gave them the qualifications to make such statements. We could ask questions like, who vouched for the royal family and who qualified them to be royal. That too was in the past. However which way they got their qualifications. Are we questioning that today?
Yes, believe it or not there is still ongoing research into many facets of actual truth contained in historical myths and beliefs. Not only in the old stories contained in the Bible, but in the ancient tales plagiarized and used in the Bible itself.
"They seemed to be vouched for" You have to admit this is not a good reason for knowing if the "inspired" statement is true, don't you? Maybe, perhaps, what if etc. Not evidence at all.
Yes, we are questioning their qualifications today. Does it make any difference to you if Christianity is based on truth or fiction? You don't care?
So this research is trying to prove actual truth in terms of who actually wrote the different books of the bible, how they arrived at what they did and what or whom deemed them to be inspired?
If so, how on earth will they achieve this? How do they confirm that their results are accurate when they are researching an era that is long gone into the ethers of nothingness? With little or no physical evidence and no true understanding of a society that had different socio economic structures, ethics, etc.
Certainly they can analyse the physical evidence and base their results on these however there would be too many gaps to fill to claim they know or come to any definitive truth.
No statement made regarding the God inspired statement when made by another would be true, it is merely guess work, for many more reasons than that stated earlier.
Questioning whether or not the foundations of Christianity are based on fact or fiction seems pointless to me and no it doesn’t matter to me. We are each unique and the power to choose ones own path will rarely if ever be influenced by fact or fiction alone. There are many other variables known and unknown why one might choose a particular path.
At the end of the day though, it is the experience of God that matters. It is an experience you cannot share, sell, barter or lose. It is an experience that no one can confirm or vouch for except you. Our experiences differ infinitely so who is qualified to say that is not God? No one. Perhaps that is why there seems to be different Gods when they are really only different experiences of God.
Royalty was "annointed (christened)" by the Holy leader, Church or other. So the "God" of the region is who determined royalty.
And this included the usual court intrigue, bribes to church officials, favors repaid, future favors expected, political wrangling, etc. God does work in mysterious--and often unethical--ways.
So far, we have nothing to show any god inspired anyone to write anything. Should we keep searching or simply accept anonymous hearsay as absolute truth in this case?
It was written by men. It was written about God and other things...but inspired by God...Nothing I have ever learned or been taught leads me to believe it was inspired by God. More of a set of laws and stories to allow a non-family group of persons to live together without to much strife with some form of government. As God(s) were feared and respected, it was easier to lead people if they thought the rules set down were from God(s) and not men.
Ancient tribal laws existed long before man invent gods. The 10 commandments were already around in basic tribal ethics thousands of years before the fictional Moses ascended the mount.
So those of us who have actually searched for the truth, can probably agree there is no actual proof of any books of the Bible being inspired by any gods at any time.
Agreed. The people of the bible were nomadic types...I think the writings of the bible (at least the first 5 books) was used in an attempt to govern nomadic tribes in a settlement enviroment.
But of course the first five books didn't reach the format we kinda see today until sometime during or right after the Rule of King Solomon
So does this mean one is better off to be ignorant so as to believe in god easier? Ignorance is bliss?
Well...Lets just say that it is easier to hypnotize someone who has a weak will or mind.
The majority of people are very content following what they are told. It is easier than leading and being the one responsible for making the decisions and having to deal with being right or wrong with those choices.
Aren't you describing the entire human race? We do what we are told and live within established rules and regulations that are not our own. We make our decisions based on the established rules and regulations that govern our community and country. A select few might not and end up in prison.
Followers of religion, follow by their own choice that is not governed by any rules or regulations.
All of our laws are based from religious beliefs.
It is not required to follow the legal rules, but there is penalties involved of course. Everyone knows that if you break the law, there is jail to look forward to. (real places). But if one doesn't follow the "rules" of the bible, they might go to a bad place (no one knows for a fact if this is a real place). The difference is, if I break the law, I can't just say "I believe and I repent" and get out of trouble with the courts.
Comparing actual laws and rules of social living that have very real legalities to the "faith" of religious punishments is not the same.
Yes agree. I realize we cannot compare mans law with the laws written by man in the bible.
What I was pointing to was the power to choose rather than having no choice.
Ah ok. Understood.
And I still stand by the fact that the majority people choose to follow. Following requires less work and there is very little responsibility involved.
The Jewish Pentateuch with the old Moses dude giving his 2 cents worth, of course. They have been edited, deleted, etc. and some were actually plagiarized from earlier stories and myths such as the flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. I'll wager most fundies don't hear much about that.
The "fundies" don't want to know about that. From tabernacle to the robes of the priest how ceremonies were conducted, were all borrowed from pagan beliefs... The "crown" for the High Priest had writings on it that said "Holiness to the Lord" and was written in Samaritan Characters. The colors used symbolized the four elements (earth, air, fire and water). The 12 stones were for the tribes as well as the zodiac. The 2 shoulder stones were symbols of the sun and moon. The seven armed candle stick was for the seven planets and the seven days of the week.
I could go on and on, but from what I have read of your postings, you probably already know most, if not all of this already.
I thought it was war that determined it? Then again, that makes sense if Vatican history is anything to go by. If Churches engaged warriors to fight for their holy war they may just have made them royal with any victory.
Many people will attempt to answer this question using conventional teachings, however, the majority are dead wrong. In order to understand and get a good answer you have to read the council of Nice 325
But to many fundamentalists this would amount to doubting the word of God. Best not to know for them. Even the council of Nicea has no proof of anything in the Bible being "inspired by any sort of god. simply a "good ole' boy" meeting of those with similar beliefs with minor differences.
Nope, nothing there, but thanks for the opinion.
Yes, I know it was a good ole boy network. My point exactly. People are believing in philosophy of which they do not know the roots of. And many of them are clinging to it for dear life, without thinking maybe now is a good time to do some research. When Galileo questioned what happened to him. That what I am seeing now. People who are afraid to question. People had Gods long before the bible, and what happened to the men King James had to translate the book out of its original tongue?
To quote from the bible' all writings are inspired from God' therefore the Bible validate itself and.every post in this forum...I agree.
It's true because it says it is? That works well for the ignorant but what about those seeking truth? Who had the power to decide the writer's were inspired? Do you have no knowledge of where the Bible came from?
It didn't suddenly appear all in one book, Kess. Common men, just like you, wrote the old stories and myths. Do you feel inspired enough to speak for your god and perhaps doom other people's souls to eternal damnation by your words? If your post is any indication, you probably do!
There's only ONE person who can make such a claim, that is of any value.
That person is YOU.
From all your posts (that I have read, at least), you are NOT convinced that it is so.
In which case, it matters not, one iota, whether it is Inspired, or contrived, does it?
You have already rejected the notion that it IS? Right?
Therefore, as far as you're concerned, it is NOT inspired!
So you can decide its inspired truth and push it anothers throat, as if its the truth?
That's a phrase that is WAY over used and ABUSED.
I'm not shoving anything down anyones throat. None of us are!
Posting on a forum hardly qualifies for that!
When was the last time you had anything "shoved down your throat"? Really?
Posting on the forum may not, but what about the people who comes after, me tellin that i'm eternally damned, if i don't believe in them and their nonsense (or according to you, the truth decided as, by them)
But ya know ,like the saying goes ,if ya dont like the heat in the kitchen -stay out.
I dont door knock ,but even if I did,so what.When I was in the same position as you ,I would just say ,No thanks ,Im not interested!
Or if Christians were singing on some street corner, I just walked on bye.
This ramming down ones throat is a grosse exaggeration.
In some places it's worse than others, EK. One can only attest to what they witness in their own particular part of the world. I do understand your point of view, though.
Thats true and I am sure the folks can get mighty vocal round yer parts
Personally ,even considering I agree with the foundations of what they may believe I would find it downright rude certain behaviour. Im not so sure its even cultural because their is a certain 'flavour' of pentecostalism in a part of New Zealand that is a little on the 'pushy in yer face style'.
The leadership have even taken on a certain image -dare I say like one of those American Evangelists, gleaming white tooth smile ,sleek hair ,tuxedo style and lots of blah blah blah....saleman kinda style
I dont like it, but of course they have a following.
(I do understand))
If you haven't experienced it, or if you don't think it as nonsense, it might be an exaggeration for you. For me who is at the receiving end of nonsense, its terrible.
Um.. thought I had explained.
I would think not too many haven't.
The point I was making was this. Many people try to sell us 'stuff' everyday in every way ,and all you have to is say YES please, or NO thankyou.
Its called being assertive.
Even a simply salesman don't in away like that. Again the people who come to sell may be your relatives or friends who want to correct the lost sheep.
Ok ,well thats even easier ,because I have family who don't believe as well.
We just too busy loving each other than to worry bouts ,our individual belief system.
I used to have a bible study in the top room and my brother was entertaining Jim Beam in the basement ,no biggy ..why not some may ask...
His actions didnt p** me off and mine didnt encroach on his.
Respect is love.
Great, aka! Now tell me where you found this information. The truth of the evidence you provide to support your statement will certainly bolster your claim. I will certainly read anything you provide.
See my above response
In this we agree and for once you are correct in your assumptions. I am agnostic, not atheist. Yet. You might say I try to use the common sense God gave me instead of believing things which make no sense to me.
Yes it does matter to those actually searching for the truth. Why would I entrust my eternal soul to an old book with absolutely no evidence of whether it is truth or fiction? Do you use this same attitude in making any other important decisions in your life?
Wrong once more, aka. Agnostic, remember? Thanks for being civil, even though your assumptions are mistaken.
If you go to the root of why people argue about the actuality of the bible being "The inspired word of God" or having any relevance at all, you will find that there.is a war of Good vs. Evil. A war that will never end until The End.
Don't call the christians evil, ignorant yes, not evil.
Do you have anything concrete to back up your statement? Bold statements without any proof is the basis for the questions in the original post. If you have nothing to show how we know the Bible is God's "inspired word," why post at all?
When the bible was compiled it was done by the ruling class of people that had total control over others.
Should you question the veracity of the compilers or that the bible was indeed the inspired word of God you were a heretic and killed. If you were lucky you escaped a visit from the local inquisitor, but either way you were pushing up daisies.
It doesn't take long for the simple statement of inspiration to be readily apparent as completely true. No physical proof is needed - it is only common sense and no can possibly deny it. (At least not twice).
When enough generations have passed it is not even a question that occurs to anyone to ask. That you do so now imperils your immortal soul if not your physical one and thus no one will consider trying to prove it (what if it is not so?).
The word or our ancestors, given while being stretched on the rack, is all the proof we need.
Ah, a reasonable answer by one not afraid of losing their immortal soul. But perhaps there was some test given to them which they had to pass before the proof of their "God given" inspiration was validated.
Surely there was more to it than someone simply proclaiming to be inspired by God! Is it really so simple? Is this the entire basis for the book being true?
I do agree the Inquisition went a long way towards proving the actual truth of the bible, Wilderness. Unless one had faith, they suffered great pain and misery. The Inquisition proved the Bible right in this instance.
No, there is no proof anyone claiming to author any parts of the Bible was inspired any more than what you or I say is. And we know much more than those anonymous authors of the ancient tome ever imagined.
Well, I figured when I signed in blood with that horned guy my soul was lost. He seems to have reneged - my traffic still hasn't doubled - but I suppose I still have to uphold my end of the bargain.
Seriously, though, might makes right and what the mighty proclaim is always right. That really was a good deal of it - a proclamation from the mighty that increased their power over the general population and that no one could refute.
So, where did God come in? All common mortals deciding amongst themselves what words were really inspired by God. That's it? Surely someone actually consulted the guy who was supposed to do the inspiring, didn't they?
No, of course not.
First, you cannot contact someone that isn't there.
Second, if He is the kindly, loving and murderous psycho they chose to depict Him as He would surely have murdered them for some reason that made sense only to Him.
Thirdly, we can assume that God won't lie to us, but the bible certainly does. Therefore there was no consultation or guidance from above.
Does this mean I'm going to hell like the fundies say happens to those who question "God's Inspired Word"? Are you guys going too?
Yes it does. I suggest you read up on how to placate a demon and keep it happy.
Perhaps you could write a hub about it for the rest of us heretics?
I'm way ahead of you, Wilderness. I already have numerous air conditioning hubs written. But I'm afraid there will be some of the fundies on these forums who may show up befuddled and confused as to why they are there too. I'm not sharing my A/C with them, though.
My friend! Have I ever told you how much I like snakes? I even have a boa in my extra bedroom.
Remember me when we meet in Hell, Randy - you sound like a good man to know there.
Strange how the fundies, except for Aka-DJ, who I do appreciate giving the perfect example of a believer's answer, avoided weighing in on this seemingly important Christian proclamation. It must not be as important to them as I thought.
You simply can't judge faith based matters on earthly criteria. If we are talking about what gives a lawyer authority for example, we would find out where he or she was trained, what firm they work at and what cases he or she won. We would do this for any human being. When we talk about the Bible we are talking God's word, it's up to the individual to believe whether or not it is God's word. It's a matter of faith. Either you believe or you don't.
Do you take the same tack when making other important decisions in your life? And who first told you the bible was "the inspired word of god"? I'll bet it was probably a preacher or someone else fully indoctrinated in to christianity.
It seems sort of strange to trust your immortal soul to a belief based on hearsay evidence. Especially as much of the "inspired word" was borrowed from previous pagan religions. But perhaps your god couldn't come up with his own original ideas and this is the explanation for the plagiarism.
Either one is indoctrinated into the belief, or not. If they are, they will believe almost anything they are told to believe and if they don't, they are hell bound for sure. Threats and fear convince many who otherwise would rather use their common sense.
It always falls back on personal belief... no matter who told you about the Bible or where you may have heard it first. I choose to believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, that gives me comfort like nothing else can.
I feel the same way about my god Moe. And I don't have overlook him killing almost the entire population of humans and animals on the planet. He's not obsessed about young virgins either.
I understand that beliefs are often handed down, but I wan't raised with the Bible. My belief was due to my own choosing. I wish I could explain why I believe, but all I can say is I do believe in the Bible.
Like I said, when it comes to the Bible, I think it's a matter of faith, can I prove anything that will convince you otherwise, I doubt it, unless God chooses otherwise.
Let me tell you, even in the Millennium (I know you probably think that is untrue as well) anyways according to my beliefs which include the Millennium, there will be people that even though they live in a world where Chirst is personally ruling, so they can't doubt there is god, they will have to see him everyday, they will live in a world where there will be abundance and Justice, prophesies will be fulfilled and yet, they will rebel against it all.
What I'm trying to say is it's not a matter of proof it is a matter of what each person chooses at the end.
I have no problem with those who believe in the bible unless they are urging others to do the same. Attempting to influence others concerning risking their souls is an awful responsibility to take on. Especially if you cannot explain why you are right about what you believe.
What if you are wrong and are worshiping the wrong god, and you've talked others into doing the same? No, not me. I sometimes have trouble believing things which are easily proven, much less invisible gods who need our puny adoration to be satisfied.
Besides, such a god would already know the end result of who was saved long before the earth was created. A done deal.
even from a zeolots point of view!
Most of that made sense
Then your god should know this too. And your book would still be wrong.
Yes indeed God does know. Perhaps not on a conscious level but we have many levels of consciousness. I don't have a book. If you are talking about the bible, then that would depend highly on ones interpretation of the messages it delivers.
Kinda like if we both read the wizard of oz. We would both get a different message from reading the book. I might relate the book to someones life experiences adorned with creative descriptions that symbolize a journey one must take to realize what is within. You might see it as a great fantasy book for children that is very entertaining. Does that make the book wrong or our perceptions wrong? Neither. It is just different views on a book that has a story to tell which will be perceived in an infinite ways.
But TWOO still merely a fairy tale no matter how much you relate to it. And it doesn't threaten eternal damnation for those who don't believe it is true.
That illustrates well what I said in my previous post. One story and infinite ways to perceive. Eternal damnation for me, could mean an entirely different thing to you.
A further illustration perhaps....
What is eternal? It's a word. It has a literal meaning. Infinite amount of time...Immortality or eternal life. So we accept this and it gives us 'meaning' for the word eternal. What is infinite? Another word also with a literal meaning. Literal meaning helps us to give the word a 'meaning' however fantastical this meaning might be.
What though is infinite? How long is infinite? Who invented the word infinite? None of us have experienced infinite to know what it really means? Therefore infinite is a fairytale meaning because it is not based on or describing any experience. It is a creative word to describe something we have not yet experienced and don't yet understand.
The above exercise can be done for the word damnation as well...
Perhaps. But it doesn't get us any closer to answering the original question in this thread. One's take on words is merely that.
You are right God does and did know who would be saved long before he created anything, otherwise to say he omniscient would be foolish.
As to make someone else believe like me, well that is something I could never do, I can only tell them what I believe and why I believe it, whether or not they want to believe like me is for them to choose. I do not believe in making my Pastor or any other Christian responsible for my soul, they only told me what they believe, whether or not I believe that is up to me, and I believe up to God as well.
You sure about that Randy, I mean do you have evidence to the contrary
As far as religion goes, people will believe as they wish. I look around me Today, seeing exactly what the Bible writers predicted, and I doubt they 'guessed' it. " The love of the greater number will cool off." (Matthew 24:12) THIS alone, has certainly shown me that yes, people hate each other and are doubting a Higher Power exists, governments TRYING very hard to eliminate certain segments of their population, if THAT isn't hatred, I don't know what IS. To each his own. As individuals, if it is true, we will answer singly, as individuals when a day of reckoning shows up. Good topic though.
People have always hated each other. But no more today and perhaps not as much as they did in ancient times. Religions have always caused strife between groups of people, even though most cults preach love and understanding while killing their fellow man. It's just considered more in bad taste among those who are willing to ask questions these days.
"The Inspired Word of God"! Oh really?"
We are lab rats. Period.
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