Ok so I have been studying the bible for close to ten years now and the more I study the more questions I have. I have been given the cold shoulder in churchs and church groups for some of the questions I have but I feel they are valid. Maybe this wonderful group of people that hang out here can help me.
1. If sin is carried by the man through the seed of man and passed on to all his children Christ would have been born blameless. Which is why he was the perfect sacrifice. However, death was the punishment for sin before sin the bible tells us that Adam and Eve were eturnal with a body that wouldn't die. So Christ being without sin means he was as Adam was before the fall. Man in his perfected state, eturnal. How then was he able to die on the cross or feel hunger or things like that?
2. The bible says that it is appointed for all men to die once and that is the bodies death, however the rapture experience says that the bride, Christs followers, will be caught up, raptured, into heaven and avoid the seven years of tribulation.....is there a sudden death then rapture as the dead in christ go first then the living? How does this work it contridicts itself doesn't it?
Those two are enough for now to probably get a big response so Ill save the rest for another time.
You had the same problem I encountered when I began asking questions.
Jesus was supposedly both spirit(holy spirit filled) and human.
Good question, however, from my learning, I've come to understand that the "dead" would rise first and go to heaven and then all those who truly believed in Jesus would be next. All the rest are to stay here and suffer.
Feel free. I'm sure there are enough "experts" of the bible to answer almost any question, however, I'm sure most of them will tell you what they were taught to say, instead of what research went into learning about it itself.
I'm of the understanding that Jesus' original teachings were not religious in any way, shape or form. But, not many would agree with me.
These things trouble me greatly. I've based my life, marriage and parenting on Christ and now I just don't know what I'm doing anymore. I'm grasping at straws it seems with no avail.
Believe it or not, I have a ton of hubs for you to read.
Sorry, not promoting my hubs, but my main writing is all about revealing things that are necessary for one to guide themselves. No god required.
I don't know that I'm not believing in God, I see a painting and I know there is a painter, I see a table and I know there is a craftsmen, I see creation.........I know you have heard that before however it is still relivent to me.
Just because you see creation, doesn't mean it doesn't have a creator. What you know and see, with regards to life, is just a natural process that began billions of years ago.
Don't let the "shock and awe" of existence, detour you from being rational or sane.
The existence of life is just a process derived from the Universe existing. Why does the Universe exist? What difference does it matter on your individual life?
It should not actually matter why it exists, just be happy that it does.
Where does the Bible say Adam & Eve had eternal bodies before the fall? Maybe it's in there but I don't recall it....
Genesis 3: 22 tells us that they didn't get around to eating of the tree of life which would've given them eternal life.
It would be implied would it not? God is good, would he create a being doomed for decay and rot? No, we were created in His image to rule and reign with him, he is eternal in turn so would his creations be as well. Sin, death, does not enter into this picture until after the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge is eaten.
Rule and reign with Him? Not so sure. Have dominion over the earth, yes. But not Heaven.
There was still a distinction between Creator and created, from the start.
The subtle devil tempted Adam & Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil before they thought of eating of the tree of life, apparently. That's implied also (that they hadn't thought of it). And do you know what/who the tree of life is?
Rule and reign with him yes, Him over heaven Man over the Earth. I never said we were to rule in Heaven however isn't it funny that He has plans to merge the two and we all rule together over man and the angels...........We were to have dominion over it and subdue it. He has angel's praising his name without ceasing in this throne room, we were created to hang out with. He came and walked with adam in the cool of the day. He actually left Heaven just to hang out with Adam. In fact praise and worship as we know didn't even exsist until the invention of instriments long after the creation of man.
If you are going to tell me that the tree of life is Christ save it, I have a hard time believing that Christ was standing in the Garden waiting for Adam and Eve to happen upon him with a fruit basket.
Have you really been studying the Bible, or just looking for contradictions that don't exist in it?
Are you really wanting to reconcile figurative passages with literal ones, or are you trying to shred it?
Are you really looking forward to being with your Creator in Heaven, or are you imagining your own concept of the role you'll have in Heaven?
...I know other Christians who've implied that they'd be bored with "just" worshipping God in Heaven. If they really grasp even half-way the magnitude of who and what He is, there'd be no question of boredom nor any insignificance attached to worshipping Him....
What are you talking about? You keep pulling things out of thin air, I never said anything about boredom or ruling in Heaven, you did. You started both those tracks of thinking.
Worship is a funny thing because for man it is born out of being saved from damnation. We don't know how to praise him for being him without the concept of salvation. Only the angels know that one. Their wave length of who this indescribable creator is, is so far gone from where you and I stand as sinner's trying to run this race of salvation it's crazy. I never said that we wouldn't worship I said we werent created to do that. I didnt have children for them to worship me, is it nice to hear them say things like, "You make the best cheeseburgers!" or "I'm the best Daddy in the world!" It melts my heart and breaks it at the same time but I had my children to have them, so they would have life.
I'm not on here to argue so if that's all you want to do I'm not, say what you will. I know where I stand, what my belief's are and what my concerns with them are. I pray that God would bless your life abundently and yu would find peace with one hanful rather that toil with two. With that said I'm going to bed it's way to late for me to be up.
I have always wondered about the creation of heaven and earth at the very beginning. We think about God in heaven, but if he created heaven at the beginning... was heaven created at that moment, just like earth, for a purpose? Or is it just meant as a reference to the universe and not to what is discussed later as heaven? If heaven was created for a purpose, which we later find out, then God planned from the beginning for us to go there. So it would bring us back around to Brenda's question of there not being a statement for eternal bodies, but that some think it is implied.
Next, there are many scholar's who believe there was trouble in the valley before the separation of genders in Genesis 2 depending on how you interpret it. You could say Genesis 1 is general and Genesis 2 is in depth or that we were created as one then separated. Anyway, the creation of man God says that everything was good but before the creation of Eve God says everything was no good, this has lead several to think there was trouble before. If there was, then how could creation be perfect and eternal?
It seems number 1 was answered so I will attempt to answer number 2. Know that I do not have all the answers and part of what I write will be speculation.
I think back to Elijah. He was "raptured" in the Old Testament. As far as I can tell, he is still alive. Nothing is written saying that he died. There will come a day when he will be killed. He will lie in the street for three days and people will rejoice over his death. After those three days, he will rise again alive and be taken up into heaven.
Those who are raptured will most likely have to die at some point, though I am not certain on that point and if so, when it would happen.
two4god07's answer was not a cop out. He is merely stating what he knows about the question.
maybe cop out was a strong term, didn't mean to offend anyone with that. However these are questions of physicalities and not of the soul. His answer was of the soul and not of the body.
We know that according to the Bible there has to be a change. The old man dies and a new creature is born. The flesh of man has desires and lusts that the spirit does not have. So, in essence, his answer was both physical and spiritual.
I will put it this way. Flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. When death comes calling to a man's door, no one can really know unless God tells them beforehand.
there is some debate as to whether Elijah was raptured or not. I believe he was not. He was definitely taken up into "heaven". But there are three heavens.. the sky (where birds fly), the celestial heaven (where the stars are) and the Third Heaven which is God's throne room.
Elijah was definitely taken up into the sky, but we have no proof that he was taken to the other heavens. In fact, his whirlwind method of travel was common. 1 Kings 18:12 has Obadiah sent out to fetch him, and he is concerned that if he doesn't bring Elijah back with him in person, that "the Spirit of the Lord shall carry thee whither I know not" and he won't be able to find him again that day.
Also, Elijah is reported to have sent King Jehoram a letter of rebuke several years after he was 'taken up to heaven'. I'm pretty sure there is no mail delivery from the Third Heaven.
Also, just read John 3:13 and it says outright that 'no man has ascended to heaven' (except Christ).
However, John 8:51 says "verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man keep my saying (commandments), he shall never see death." This is referring to the Second Death (eternal damnation).
As for raptured souls... I'm pretty sure they are simply translated into 'incorruptible bodies'. It will happen in the 'blink of an eye' so I'm pretty sure there is no death involved for them.
And one other point.. it happens at the end of the Tribulation, immediately after the 7th Trumpet, but before the 7 Vials (wrath of God) is poured out.
Jesus did not die on the cross; he survived and migrated to India and lived a long life and died there naturally and peacefully.
When one understands the true nature of Sin then these things will be made clearer....
You see the Christians and other religious organisation based their doctrines on misconceptions.. this is why there are never ending question and open ended answers.
Truth is they have never known the basics and take on things too high for them.....Spiritual writings.
Therefore they take them and make them into what was not intended...
Your second question is a result of this for they have no clue what it means to be Spiritual ....Thus they have created something call a "spiritual body" that has no place in Spititual reality.....
This is because Carnality begets the same and though they boast of Spirituality they are merely lost in their own Carnality.
hellow mr red beard ! I want to say what I appreciate about you is your study of the bible we can talk because you would understand what i am going to explain . there is a error here ,you said Adam and Eve was eternal ,meaning that they should have not died !problem the fact that they where told not to eat fruit and told they would die prove them not eternal had they ate of the tree of life ,then they would live eternal,and still here today. You can relate to Jesus life ,well first Jesus came though the jews line, ,why for the purpose of a future goverment! yes the jews knew he was to be a king of a goverment in the future ,they rejected Gods choice and killed him! God subsituted other people to be with Jesus for goverment! the goverment will not be here on earth! it does not have to since Jesus lives up there,the benifits will be here, the lords prayer tells you let your will take place here on eath as is in heaven. goodness in heaven will also flow here to earth ,one king one Goverment for the intire earth!read lord prayer proof of this.Jesus is in power now after assending to heaven Jews lost thier place as co rulers ,jesus pupose for flesly body was becaus he switch up in adams place for us ,like an adoption., he paid for us all not with money !but because he was Gods first born son his value would be so valuble no one could match his value. those that accept what he did and live in harmony with that will benifit! like insurance!we all are covered ,but people take themselfs out of the coveragewont benifit them.
next the thing about heaven is based on Goverment! for human kind after Armaggedon Gods war with mankind to clean earth off! that is when the earth will be like heaven and his goverment will fully benifit every one saved and those resurrected our loved ones who will come back on earth !.I HAVE MANY SCRIPTURES TO SHOW THIS BEING TRUTH, THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS TALKS ABOUT THE 144,000 GIVES NUMBER OF THOSE WHO WILL RULE WITH CHRIST IN GOVERMENT.
every goverment has subjects every body can not be the king the king have subjects! or citizens that would be those who talked about in the bible as happy are the peaceable for they will inherit the earth and others,
these are the ones collected from the earth! for a govermemt as kings and priest! under the the rule of christ.Yes every body cant be in the white house,and everybody can not be king yes we all have hope of life in future, but many will be here under the goverment that will bring heavenly conditions here on earth. many will not have to experience death because Jesus already died for many! yet if we do die ,we are covered for a ressurection.that does not cover the unforgiveble those will be forgotton forever.
Jesus was born of flesh threw Jewish line , Jesus recieced gods Holy spirit force after baptism that when God used a dove to land on him and that is when Gods voice said this is my son listen to him! this is when jesus promoted kingdom or goverment interest when he fed maltitudes, heal the sick, raised the dead , like campaine for goverment!Danial 2:44 tells you
#1 - When death was introduced, it was introduced to all mankind, not just those born of man. The requirement to sin, or being slaved by sin, was passed down only through men. So Jesus had the ability to sin, but he did not do so because he wasn't a slave to sin. And when we accept Jesus, we are no longer slaves to sin as well (Romans 8)
Also, Jesus could have chosen not to die for our sins. He could have called down the angels to set him free from the cross. But he knew in doing so, we would not have a savior. He did not desire to feel the pain. He actually prayed saying he didn't want to suffer, but he chose to do so because he loves us.
He went through everything in a natural body so that he could say he understands what we are going through. We can't pray, "But God you dont understand!" Because now he can reply, "I do... I went though it myself."
#2 - "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." - 2 Corinthians 5:17
When we put our trust in Jesus, and make Him the Lord of our life, our old self dies. John 3 explains it as being born again. So in essence, even the believer dies. They die to the flesh to become one with the spirit.
Kind of feel like #2's answer was a big cop out.
two4god: Jesus was Holy Spirit concieved in the womb of Mary. He was not concieve by the seed of man, but concieved of God. One has to ask himself a very significant question. How could Jesus, who is God, the Son of God, sin against himself?
You discuss Jesus suffering both before the crucifixion and during. Indeed Jesus suffered but it was not a suffering of physical pain not like we as man think. Indeed Jesus witnesses the pain first hand of his crucifixion, but this was not His real suffering.
Jesus realized because He is God, that when He accepted the sins of man upon himself, that God His Father and our Father would not, could not, look upon Jesus as He hung there on the cross.
Sin is an abomination to God and to see His own son covered in sin would be unbearable to see so God looks away. This is why Jesus prays "Father Father, why have you forsaken me?" The pain and anguish of having His Father turn his back on Him was worse than any physical punishment any man could face.
According to scripture, at the time of the "Rapture" Those already dead, are living in Hell. All will be given the opportunity to choose Jesus or not. Those that choose Jesus will be escorted to heaven, then all believers yet alive and on earth will be caught up in the flesh to join Jesus in the sky, about 1/3 of all of mankind on earth will be apart of this "Rapture" and then the earth will face 7 years of tribulation and hardship before Jesus returns to battle satan.
Prove this statement without using the Bible as a reference or any other religious book on the planet. Otherwise, it's just pure conjecture/speculation.
Prove that this is only conjecture using any reference you can provide?
Biology already proves how any and every human comes into being. So please.
Cagsil you are so quick to attack religious beliefs even when proved biblically or historically through archeological records or whatever. Yet you say nothing to substantiate yourself and your beliefs or disbeliefs. You just like stirring the caldron to try and upset believers.
Not attack the belief. I'm attacking the irrationality of the thinking that was used to form the belief.
My beliefs are not your concern, so why would I share them with you. Get real.
I like dispelling irrationality, which is what is the basis for almost all religions(mystical nonsense).
Cags if you asked an alien to find a book in any library to prove he exisited, well thats silly isnt it.
My point being God can not be put in a box with a label,(like any other topic).
Much like I wont be expecting much info on Earth in Heaven
Alright.. then let's look at it another way. I was correct in the answer, but I had some addition.
The verse you are referring to uses the word "appointed."
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
Looking aside the fact that it doesn't say "every man." The word men could men two, 10, or 1000. It just has to be plural.
Appointed means scheduled. God has set aside the date of your death, or reworded, has given you the gift of so many years to live.
What if the rapture happened before that scheduled date? That would make the appointment irrelevant.
But I still stick with the we are given new life answer as the best explanation. The Bible says that believers are given new life.
Correct a life without end, the beginning of everlasting life through Christ. The old man has been put down so on and so forth, however the body still must be put to death because it is tainted with sin. Now my thoughts have been that at rapture people would drop down dead in the streets or where ever and at the second coming those who were raptured would rise up. However that conflicts with Christs picture of two in the field and one is taken and one is left and so on. So I'm just having a hard time putting my head around it. Either the Bible is truth and life or it's not. I'm searching for those answers to my questions but it only ever leads to more quesitons.
“Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:4)
It said every man appointed to die... But it never said it meant physically
Thank you for you input, I just don't know if it's something that I can graps. I see the Bible as a book of culture, history, poetry, metaphor and so many other things. I think that things like women being silent in the church was specific to that Church in Corinth not all the world for all time.
I don't think it is a matter of what you or I would prefer, The bible says and men are appointed to die. OK so let's look at that real good. This scripture prove that a man that sins is to be put to death period. Ezek. 18:4; physical death, not unless he finds Jesus or until he finds Jesus. I just don't know we will see eye to eye on this.
captain redbeard stop looking for what you all ready know you say you have studyed the bible then if you look and feel what it is saying you will see that death of the body has to happen the book justifies this using sin as the reason for death but it is not in the book it states that the body is vessel nothing more with death comes the next level of LIFE yes life all things continue for your own good remember the bible is just a BOOK put together like all the other religion books and beliefs to help humans understand the un-understandable but if you look deep enough you will see what it is all about soon the human race will face this and rapture or end of the world is not what i am talking about people will face the greatest truth ever and those who question will be able to see this for what it is it is not as complicated as you think people make it confusing and hard and scary but it is not death sin or even the bible it is within every one and it is getting close to being shown........dont over think because of a book life is to short
Jesus did not die on the Cross; he survived a cursed death on the Cross as he had foretold; he died naturally and peacefully in Kashmir, India; one may read the following in this connection:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8 a BBC documentary.
http://hinduism.about.com/b/2005/09/22/ … -india.htm
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes … rine-jesus
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentar … view.shtml
http://mystiquearth.blogspot.com/2008/1 … shmir.html
With the utmost respect, I must say I have trouble comprehending how people can still believe everything that's been written in the 'bible'. Where is common sense when it comes to religion?
There will always be disagreements and wars and death and torture (and mutilation of little girls and boys) in the name of religion.So where exactly is the 'Goodness' we hear so much about? I often hear people comment on here that something has got to be right because 'Jesus said so - it's written in the bible' etc... Just because it's been written in some badly translated ancient text doesn't make it right. Common sense and logic,- God given attributes, tell us if something is right or not. For example, if all this stuff was happening now, who in their right mind would accept the Jesus story? If some woman who was pregnant out of wedlock suddenly announced that she had been made pregnant by God, she'd be laughed at. Let's face it, it's NOT possible! But the Christian fanatics fire back straight away that it's got to be true 'because it's written in the scriptures' Who says the scriptures are true? When I was very young I was brainwashed into believing all this bible stuff, to the extent that I was scared to question whether it was right or not. As I matured my common sense took over, and as a result it left me scarred (and scared) to the extent that I could not shake off the God theory.
If the God of the bible exists, He's got a lot to answer for. If He made the world and us and everything on the planet, He certainly made a few errors, but those of you with 'blind faith' carry on in your tunnel vision lives believing that salvation is just around the corner. Well that's entirely up to you. You can go on believing what you like, but PLEASE dont keep carping on about how good YOUR God is, when during my 50+ years on the planet, all I've seen is wars and death and torture and terrorism in the name of your Jesus and God. If God gave us a life on this planet, He gave it for us to enjoy, to live within the laws of the land and respect each other and the world which we share. My children have never been to church or been brainwashed into believing in an out-dated fairy-tale, but they are decent human beings who abide by the law and respect themselves and their fellow men. It's so wrong to shove this rubbish into our offspring's minds in the 21st century. Let common sense prevail.
When are people going to wake up and smell the coffee?
Well your arguement could quite easily be talking about either side.
There is very little common sense in much of the world affairs right now!
In comparison check out Proverbs sometime,even if you dont believe in God you must agree it makes sense,AND unlike most of the self help groups out there who charge money -Its free!
The real problem I have with some peoples reasoning is this, it is one thing to pull down a belief or faith ,but offer no alternative solutions that works.
Constructive critism builds up, destructive critism tears down
My problem with her statement was it was generalized and sterotypical. It showed no real in-depth knowledge of the Bible and was quick to dismiss the followers of ALL religions based on HER 50+ years. If she doesn't pull out a Ph.D. on comparative religion or show me anything but stock statements I'm going to have to conclude that she is the one with "tunnel vision" (and it seems to be a fairly small tunnel)
LOL @ Melissa. Why do I need in-depth knowledge of the bible to see what state the world is in THANKS TO RELIGION!!! My comment may be what you regard as stereotypical, but it's also true. Can you answer my questions? Thought not!
I'm sorry about your experience, but please realize that it's not everybody's experience. There are people in the world that are moved to goodness by the teachings of Jesus. (As well as countless other holy men and women)
So please don't go carping on about how BAD my religion is, because quite frankly I don't think you know anything about my religion, or really anyone else's except your own failed experience.
Melissa - you couldn't be more wrong. I know plenty about YOUR religion, and to be frank, you're welcome to it.. You say there are people in the world who are moved to goodness by the teachings of Jesus, well your comment proves in itself that you haven't learned much.
I don't have a 'failed' experience. I woke up and realised that the bible is an out-dated fairy story. What is your definition of 'countless other "holy men and women"' They are just human beings who have swallowed the same religious pill as the rest of you.
Don't be sorry for my what you call my 'failed' experience. I'm the one sorry for you. True enlightenment is a wonderful thing. I hope you find it one day.
Then please, tell me all about my religion. *Grabs popcorn and waits for you to embarrass yourself*
Why? It wouldn't matter what I say, your mind is closed. You think it's YOUR way, or no way. According to Christian teachings, all us non-believers are lost souls - little lambs who have wandered off the path etc.
I don't need to explain your religion to you, you think you have all the answers. The thing is Melissa, when someone opens the can of worms and disputes your theories, all you Christians get on the defensive. I suppose I can't knock you for that, you're only feeling hurt because someone is disrespecting your Jesus, and to you he's very real.
All I'm saying is, I don't buy into it, and I just don't get how so many so called intelligent people do.
Thank you for proving your ignorance with stock answers and assumptions.
In other words, you don't know anything about my religion. That's all you had to say dear.
So if you can't even answer questions about my faith... which I am horribly open with... how the hell can you begin to make assumptions about every other religious person in the world?
You obviously do, and you obviously are likely wrong about them as well.
Sterotyping is intellectual laziness at best, flat out lack of knowledge at worst.
Okay. Miss Perfect Christian. - which you so obviously are NOT, otherwise you wouldn't be trying your hardest to make me look small and stupid. You wanted an answer to your question so here it is, although I'm strongly tempted not to be drawn in to your tit-for -tat name calling, which I find child-like and very un-Christian.
Why would I believe in a religion which over the centuries has caused so much destruction and death? I don't need a PHd or any other qualifications to show me the state the world is in right now. I have eyes and ears. The Christian church is corrupt to its very core. Practice what you preach comes to mind. Incidentally, I can take the futile attempt to make me look ignorant, it's water off a duck's back. I'm not the one having to prove anything. I'm happy with my own beliefs, and I don't try and 'convert' anyone. Seing as you so obviously know so much more about your religion than I do, kindly enlighten me as to why YOUR God found it neccessary to wipe out so many thousands of lives within a decade with natural disasters? I'm sure you have the answer. I look forward to your response.
Actually, I don't have to do that, you are handling that just fine all on your own.
I didn't call you names, and you STILL haven't told me anything about my faith. I read the rest of the answer... nothing. Sorry.
I wouldn't if I were you. Could you let me know what specific destruction or wars those were that my religion caused?
That's good. Once again, how is it that my religion has caused that?
Which Christian church? There are lots of them. My church isn't particularly corrupt... Unless you count bad cooks working in a soup kitchen.
And you've just became a hypocrite as well as ignorant. You just wrote an entire tirade on how religious individuals should "wake up and smell the coffee" . Thats attempting to convert dear. You want everyone to be an atheist. However, while I'm sure you would be welcomed in my church, I am not trying to convert you. I don't try to convert for one thing. The second would be I don't think you are open-minded enough to go to my church.
My God didn't. Did yours?
'Which Christian church there are lots of them'
The 'COLLECTIVE' Christian church my dear. You know Melissa, I don't mind telling you that I don't like you and I dont like your attitude. You really should go back to your church and learn all about Christian humility. This is the thing with you people. I have as much right to my beliefs as you do yours. The difference is, I stand by what I believe in, and I don't pick out and choose the scriptures to suit my own needs. I don't need a dated book to tell me how to conduct my life, and I certainly don't need people like you. For the record, I'm not an atheist, I believe in a creator - God, or whatever you want to call him or it. I get on just fine with my own PERSONAL religion, and I don't go around quoting chapter and verse to a degree that normal human beings find sickening.
Why do I care what someone who knows nothing about me feels about me.
You do indeed have the right to believe whatever you want to believe about anything anywhere. You can state those beliefs wherever you want, but if you are being bigoted and sterotypical someone is likely going to jump on you about it.
The fact that you think accusing me of picking and choosing what verses I find relievent is insulting shows you know absolutely nothing about me or how I believe. It is the nature of my faith to question and look everywhere (including science and other religions) for answers. You made an assumption there and failed.
The second assumption that I go around quoting scriptures, is also false. I have only done it on these forums and only on very very rare occasions. Then it is generally to quote scriptures about love and not being judgmental.
Your third assumption (back in your ranting somewhere) that "my religion" considers non-believers to be lost sheep is also wrong. My religion openly welcomes members of all faith including none. I believe that if there is a heaven that all people who have lead a good life will be there.
The point of all that, is you make assumptions based on your very very very limited views.
You assumed because I was a Christian that I was just like the people that you grew up with. Thanks for expecting everyone in my religion to pay for your screwed up childhood.
First of all, you're the one making assumptions - I didn't have a screwed up childhood. wherever did you get that idea?
Secondly, if you're going to quote scriptures about love and not being judgemental, you've obviously been reading the wrong ones 'my dear!'
You have judged me in every comment you have made. I'm what you regard as a stereotypical, hypocritical, fairly small tunnel visioned atheist.
You also assume I have VERY limited views. LOL How very wrong you are MY DEAR! Read back over your own repetitive comments, and you still ahvent answered MY questions. for reference if you get stuck, you could always refer to your bible.
You said that religion had left you scarred and scared... there you go dear.
Ignorance means lack of knowledge... Since the religion you are talking about is mine and you are saying things that are obviously incorrect you are ignorant. Since you are basing your views on what you think Christians are and that is why you are in error, that is stereotypical. The fact that you still haven't told me anything about my faith, which you told me you knew ALL about, proves you know everything above anyway and are trying to save face.
I'm not being judgmental. If you insult me (which you did) then you better be able to back it up with facts. You didn't and I'm telling you why. That's not being judgmental honey, that's being observant.
Now go sit and try to turn this whole conversation around in your head to justify how me being "mean to you" after you insulted me somehow proves that all Christians are horrible. Whatever it takes you to be okay with hating a whole group of people who you know nothing about based on your misconceptions. I'm done with you.
Oh dear Melissa. I don't hate you - or anyone calling themselves Christian.-there you go again with your assumptions. I PITY you. I don't need to turn anything around. I stand firmly by my original comment - in fact I'm even more assured in my head now about the 'fakeness' of your religion. I will not stoop to your level and be goaded into telling you why I think Christianity sucks. You obviously think you are someone of superior intelligence to mere mortals like myself, so work it out for yoourself. It aint rocket science. I may just write a hub about it when I've got the time. Be sure to stop by and read it. I have to go now. Bye.
Just one more thing - I am not saying anything that is incorrect by my reckoning - can you PROVE your religion is the one that is right? No you can't, therefore I am not the ignorant one - you are! Now get the hell out of my face with your stupid moronic comments and go and preach to someone who gives a damn!
Maybe its any religion?
Was going to say scoot over, and pass the popcorn ,but alas if I don't leave now my coach will turn into a pumpkin.
(So nice to sleep when its raining-love it!)
In responds to your question redbeard Jesus died because he took the sins of the world upon himself, and it doesn't contradict itself because Jesus is the son of God and is part of the Trinity. In other words he is himself also God. You can't restrict someone by what they created, if a man builds a car he can still walk, eat, and sleep instead of running on gas and electricity.
Jesus died in Kashmir, India at the age of about 120 years, naturally and peacfully:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DXCZFRsyl8 a BBC documentary.
http://hinduism.about.com/b/2005/09/22/ … -india.htm
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes … rine-jesus
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentar … view.shtml
http://mystiquearth.blogspot.com/2008/1 … shmir.html
Well that makes at least as much sense as the christian story.
It is in the history that Jesus died in Kashmir, India.
You were the one who wrote the history or was it Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?
History existed already; Mirza Ghulam Ahmad - the Promised Messiah 1835-1908, just highlighted it .
Interesting. Now a days history too started existing? I thought only god does that!
Promised by himself?
Muhammed was supposed to be the last?
Man in his perfected state, eturnal. How then was he able to die on the cross or feel hunger or things like that?
In the bible it says Jesus was born of Mary which is to say he is not only God but human because he was not born by man but by God which means he didn't carry the sin of mankind.
How does this work it contridicts itself doesn't it?
God said he is Sovereign and that means he only will decide who he will and will not save. He tells us in the bible that some will not taste death and we simple need to accept that.
Jesus felt thirsty on the Cross; he was a human being;he was neither a god nor a son of god.
Of course you can prove he wasn't the son of God-right.
Of course you can prove he actually existed - right?
And then - of course - you can prove was was the son of god and came back to life by majik ------
How funny that you religionists keep asking for proof. I mean - like really, really funny.
What's funny is people can believe in invisible gold fish, pet rocks and actually think to themselves they are smart enough to explain the mysteries of life-That My Friend Is Funny.
People of religion believe in the pet rock and the invisable gold fish, as almost all of the USA is religious and these items wouldn't have become popular without the religious interests.
And both sides of the fence, seem to think they can explain the mysteries to life. The exeption is, that most of the science field, at least don't hold theirs as unwavering truths. The "truth" for science changes as new information or evidence is found.
" hold theirs as unwavering truths"
Religions is for believers no one is making others believe. If you can't accept other's faith Christians say good then go on about your life no one is going to force you into this religion. Where as non-believers seem to feel they have all the answers and that they can dictate what they undertstand at the time as the only real truth now that sound like someone I don't want to follow.
None of the gospel writeres was an eye-witness of the crucifixion of Jesus.
One can read an eye-witness of the event by reading the following:
A LETTER WRITTEN SEVEN YEARS AFTER THE CRUCUFIXION,
BY A PERSONAL FRIEND OF JESUS IN JERUSALEM,
TO AN ESSENE BROTHER IN ALEXANDRIA.
Crucifixion By An Eyewitness.com
BY AN EYEWITNESS
SUPPLEMENTAL HARMONIC SERIES
INDO AMERICAN BOOK COMPANY
I haven't taken time to read all 80 posts, but will give my view on this question.
Q "however the rapture experience says that the bride, Christs followers, will be caught up, raptured, into heaven and avoid the seven years of tribulation.....
A ... the bible does not say that. This, like many many other teachings of the church is little more than the Churche's interpretation of the churche's translation.
Concerning what is written in scripture, there will be 12,000 of 12 tribes of Israel which will/Was raptured. These 144000 people were blameless. Never been with a woman, never a curse word out of theit mouths, etc. etc.
The first mention of a rapture is written in Daniel 12. Children of Daniels people.... Hebrews!
well if you where to take everything in Revalations literal we would not be here now, because the beast descibe are really symbolic, just like Most football and other sports use animals to represent power,so does God to explain the goverments different strenghts,and how they use it to contoll the world. At one time the jews where a people God Claimed to work with and they did benifit ,today they are still a rich people ,they lost their benifits when they killed his son, no human king on earth now can speak for God! so at that time when the Jews had God's favor they where divided by tribes thats why the bible list the tribes, but if you look closer the last lists of tribes is not ths same ,because now God has created a new nation of people he call spiritual Isreal! because the real Isreal killed God son! so his will was not done away with just because they messesd up their hope to rule in heaven with his son! remember the title they nailed over his head (King of The Jews)
Yes he is a King now, but he is king over many people today ,not in out eyesight literaly but in a spirit form in the heavens ! Now he is finding citizens who will be happy of his position and rulership.
Yes you are correct, in a sense. Kinda like interpreting a dream.
These beast do represent different world powers.
This is why we should first understand the book o Daniel if we are to attempt to understand the book of Revelation.
Many of the symbols expressed in Revelation were identified in Daniel.
Gabriel gave us the meaning of those visions which Daniel tell us about.
One thing that I do not understand is, when Gabriel gives the interpretation of Daniels vision, why do we feel like we need further interpretation? Why can we not analize without changing the meaning of the message?
Everything that these four beasts as described in Daniel as doing, was done to that Hebrew Nation that came to the end of its days in 138 AD.
Everyone of these prophesy were fulfilled before those people which they were given, came to their end of days.
Once this is recognizable to us, we can then use Gabriels interpretations, apply them to these same symbols which are used in Revelation and gain much insight.
But Jesus did not die on the Cross; he later died in Kashmir, India.
Had the Gospel writers been believers of Jesus; they would have not denied the greatest miracle of Jesus that Jesus would be saved like Jonah was saved.
Jesus was saved remember after sarifice was made in our behalf Jesus was not in his tomb ! all things went as planned ,so now Jesus returned to a spiritual body, that he had before he came to earth. remember Jonah stayed in the belly of the fish ,the same amount of days Jesus was in Tomb. A clue that Jesus would ,be the massiah .
And true Jesus did not die on across, a cross was a pagan symbol of a god call Tamaz ,poeple would carry his symbol of name in the streets when walking.Jesus died on a stake . like the stake you would tie a tent down with.
One piece of wood. was what he died on.but many religions use this symbol for Christ, the cross has been used for years by religion yet the truth he did not die on this form known as a cross.1Peter2:24 Acts5:30 Deut 21:22 .
Christianity has it's foundation in the death AND resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The shape of the "cross" is irrelevant to a great degree.
He WAS crucified in the Roman method. He DID in fact DIE. (The Roman Centurion made sure we didn't miss that point.)
He ROSE again on the third day, (according to prophecy), and IS alive today.
That's the cornerstone of (our) faith.
Why do you feel it does not matter , if a person you love died you would want to know how he died! I would! and the point that many use the sybol to represent jesus dying on it is a problem ! its not truth, its a lie! so John 4:24" for God is a spirit and those must worship him with spirit and truth"
this is acceptable to him . not Idol worship where the cross came from a pagan symbol.
Cagsil me and you will not dance to your tune ! I know your view so why are you saying anything to me? to argue . not my purpose! maybe yours .
This reply applies to those who "idolise" the symbol, or the method.
The significance is, as I stated, His DEATH & RESURRECTION.
If God wanted Him to be stoned to death, then that would have been the way he died.
The significance is, He is LORD, today, and FOREVER.
You have only hearsay for that. But nice try.
Again nice try. Ignorance is the cornerstone of faith with regards to religion.
I HEARD the message, and BELIEVED it.
Oh, so you're admitting to being delusional. Good to know. It's also a pleasure to know that you've accepted your delusional and formed a belief. Now, everything you say from here on out is completely useless and meaningless.
Always a pleasure DJ. I knew you're true character would show up sooner or later.
You guys have judged me delusional for a long time.
Ignorant, and lack of education and guilty of hallucinating have all been labels I have been taged with.
I thought you considered all I say as "useless and meaningless" already. Why would I expect differently now?
Why bother engaging me in "conversation" then?
You know it all!
You don't need me to tell you anything.
I'm only going by what you said.
I wouldn't expect you to think differently now or any time in the future.
I just wanted you to verify you're delusion and now that you have. I can be done with you.
No. Wisdom knows all that it can with the learning available(knowledge including experience). And, it's obvious that you have neither.
You're quite right. I don't need you to tell me anything. My life is already understood. I don't need a god to protect me, like apparently you do.
Well, I'm glad we have that all cleared up.
Just one last thing. You said;
" I don't need a god to protect me, like apparently you do."
Actually, I don't, at all. If you are happy with your life, bless you!
I have never expected that you, or anyone elas should do as I say.
I am just having my say, like everybody else.
Does this mean you will not engage me in any more conversations, nor should I expect further comments from you, to any of my posts?
If you don't reply to this, I will have my answer, by default.
Thanks for your time.
No blessing needed.
No one was saying that anyone had to do as you say. You make your position plain and clear, as with your belief in a god.
And no one is stopping you from doing that.
As long as you continue to spout off delusion and irrationality, it will be addressed, especially if it's in public.
I hope you never get caught at being either irrational OR delusional.
But, claiming you are neither is conclusion enough that you are.
Only perfection can claim otherwise.
Nice irrational statement. Perfection is an illusion.
Another irrational post. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, considering you believe perfection of Jesus. However, striving for perfection is futile and it's in direct violation of human nature. Therefore, it's an illusion you chase, which you can never achieve.
Yes, Jesus was/is perfection.
Striving for perfection IS futile!
It IS a direct violation of human nature.
It IS an illusion, since we cannot attain it!
And your point is????
This is assume based on the heresay you've used to create your delusion.
Then why bother?
Glad you realize it.
So you're agreeing?
Just trying to clear up a few things. That's all.
What's your objection to my position?
It seems I only failed your list on one point.
The perfection of Jesus.
You have read enough of Him to understand (my) claim!
(I use the term "understand" VERY loosely, in your case!)
The original irrational delusion which it is based on.
You failed on the foundation, which is the problem.
I expected this statement. WOW! You're predictable. I've learned enough to know that religion itself, where Jesus' teaching resides is based on mysticism and is irrational. Not to mention, it's intellectually dishonest. I mean, if you choose to be dishonest with yourself, then do so. But, under no circumstance are you to expect people to believe or even think you have the ability to be honest with them about yourself.
Yes, my assumption (faith in Jesus) is the foundation.
What do you base your "faith" in, as applied to any "ancient historical character/figure"?
Buddha for one?
Is it not historical documents?
If you want to treat the Bible as mere myth, from cover to cover, then you are the one who is delusional!
It's not faith in Jesus. It's faith in what religion has told you about Jesus.
None. No reason to. I place my faith in myself and my fellow humans.
I'm not treating the bible a mere myth. Only an idiot would do that. Some relevant information was put into the bible to give it credibility. So, people would make the "leap" of faith that everything in it was fact/truth. The entire book was manipulated before it was ever put together in the first place.
You have NO basis for this statement other than FAITH!
You obviously read something somewhere that you accepted (by faith).
There is no way you could prove, or demonstrate you assertion.
And apparently you lack understanding of the process in which the bible was put together. The translation of the text into new age language from the old ancient religious primitive language, there were some words that didn't exist and some words that didn't have words in other languages. So other words were inserted or dropped.
I'm sorry you lack the understanding of it. It's a shame you take too much on faith compared to what I take on faith. But, nice try. This is all documented ever since the bible and all other world religious books were compiled.
Your last post contradicts your first.
Either it's all a conspiracy, or a few words were change, or dropped.
I am fully aware of the translation difficulties, but it does not alter the main intent of the text being translated.
I juts happened to have done some Ancient Greek studies, so I do know about words that don't exist, or ones that had to be changed to convey the original meaning.
My faith is not blind, as you would like to think.
Actually, it doesn't.
Religion isn't a conspiracy, it's been put in place to control people(the masses). It was done so for a reason. And, yes words were dropped and other words were used in the place of other words.
Sure it does. When words were used that change the context/meaning of what was said.
I never said your faith was blind. Just misplaced.
I recommend you do some study of the comparative translations of original manuscripts and most established English versions.
There are parallel bibles, and interlinial bibles, to name just two.
I suggest the greek and english interlinial, and then you prove to me where were the contextual meanings changed (drastically), by simply using the closest english word.
I have had one of these, (although I no longer do), and knew enough greek to decipher it myself. It's a real eye opener.
Just by way of one single example, the greek has three (some claim four) words for the english word LOVE.
This single word has to carry (at least) all those meanings. BUT, in NONE of the cases is the meaning translated to change the overall message of LOVE.
I suppose, if you don't know ANY greek, you might find this laborious. You will neet a english-greek dictionary.
They are available. (Possibly online, I haven't checked)
Here's resource I doo use a lot > > http://biblos.com/ They reference every translation known to man.
Not really, the evidence of that stands on it's own and has nothing to do with what anyone has tagged.
Why does the messiah of the Christian faith have so many names not titles I'm talking about names anyone with half a brain could see that a deception stands in front of us to sum this up a personal name can not be changed that's why the prophet Muhammed name never changes no matter the language where Muslims pray but Christians don't seem to be able to grasp this frame of thought . Two thousand years ago the name Jesus wasn't even spoken amongst the apostles not even 400 years ago was the name Jesus being spoken on this planet why because it didn't exist and you have been deceived into calling upon a false name for salvation do the research yourself and you will easily be able to prove that Jesus was not the messiahs name don't get mad just research and the truth will reveal itself
And if you do the research you will discover that the quoran and the bible are both complete fabrication built from older stories and superstitions that came before them both.
You will notice that both tomes threaten to kill those who don't believe the garbage written in both of them as "the truth"
I notice that the instruction manuals I read usually don't threaten to kill me if I don't believe them!
Your belief in a magic fairy will go away completely if you put down the magic books and read widely, I promise.
Ah but if you don't believe the manual for your washing machine, you might end up with pink underpants though.
we are talking about a person who's value as a son of God would carry enough value to pay the ramsom for the human race of mankind this muhammed I'm sure was good for his own reasons but would not cover the issue for the many of generations of people that have been born now or in the past! many that have died in the past and many in the future will benfit under Jesus name,
this Muhammed would never be the value of Gods son he could not cover the many lifes lost, and what hope does he give humans today and the future., this history of Jesus and his father have been preserved for years before we were thought of ,and yet all things have come true ! now we are living the last book of Revalations no one has ever covered the history of man from Generation to Generation then the Bible! no other book
please provide a source for your... statement. I'd like to verify your information Arcjahad.
Just look at an original copy of early english language bibles and the name Jesus isn't in them that's the easy part when the name Jesus started to be used from my research is around the mid 1700s so early Americans weren't using that name but it's a deep study but the answers can be found
What did they write instead of Jesus?
Jesus is definitley not a Hebrew or Aramaic name.
Jesus is an invented name. His name is Yahshua.
This is why there is no power in the name of Jesus, and why adding 'in Jesus' name' to the end of a prayer in an effort to get God to rubber stamp it is pointless. He knows His name.
I think people get hung up on the vernacular of a language to much. It is the intent and meaning behind your words that have "power".
If I were to say "fanny" for instance here in the states, it's not problem. Americans think of a butt when the word is spoken but in England the word refers to a woman’s privates. It's a socially unaccepted word from what I understand.
Words are just vocal ways of communication and I think if you believe in a creator that is capable of all the things the Jewish/Christian God is capable of then a small thing like what you would refer to Christ as is pretty insignificant.
It’s not knowledge that saves you, it’s faith. That is way the bible is not needed to find salvation. If it was then God cheated millions out of it after Christ’s ascension.
I agree with what you say. I suppose my last comment is a reaction to all the 'in the name of Jesus' proclamations which kind of irritates, but that's me.
However next time you find yourself in a prayer gathering, try the following experiment, just for fun. When you have finished your prayer, don't finish off with 'in Jesus name'. Then count the awkward seconds before someone says it for you.
Why would you take your focus off of the reason that you were in the prayer meeting? Forget the distractions and go deep! Where did anyone read that saying a phrase stamped it with the anointing? It isn't what you say, it is the condition and position of your heart . . . but, you already know that . . . you just want to see what I will say. Do you like it?
The first crusade was 1096-1099, the 9th crusade was 1271-1272.
Jesus is not the pronunciation of Hebrew or Aramaic which Mary or Maryam or Meryam spoke; though it depicts the same person.
In Kashmir, India the same person is named Yuz Asaf:
“It may be speculated that one of those who accompanied Yuz Asaf alias Jesus on his travels was a disciple-writer who continued to document Jesus' experiences and ministry until his own death, after which the writings ceased or were taken over by another until Jesus' death.”
It's all myths paars, the whole thing is so obviously mythological to anyone who reads widely and makes an honest attempt to understand life.
It's only indoctrination.
If it were otherwise, the place you were born and your parents beliefs would not be fixed as they are.
Born in America? What chance christian?
Born in Afghanistan? What chance muslim?
Guess which belief you are likely to have been taught from birth. Not gonna be the same "truth" for both places is it?
The explanation for this is that it is all simply psychotic nonsense.
Not a very good answer to the question is it?
Atheists and non-believers are all over the planet in small pockets of every society I can think of.
Religionists on the other hand simply buy the bilge they get from parents and peers.
Born nowhere; what chance Atheist?
Not a good answer.
Christians, Buddhists,Hindus, Muslims are found in every part of the world; right.
Yes they are, but check the stats on where people come from and their beliefs.
It blows the whole religion idea away like sand in the desert and there would be very few people foolish enough to argue that America is predominantly Islamic and Iraq or Afghanistan predominantly christian.
I like reality in my arguments, not bulldust.
Hi Captain. My take on it is Jesus was born of God; yes, perfect man. As we know, man's body was perfect before the fall. But obviously, they got hungry:) When he died, he took on the sin of man, for man. To save man from the sin that was killing him and separating him further from God. He came to die.
2. The bible states that two will be working and one will be caught up. No death, in my opinion. I honestly believe that the "appointment" is a spiritual or metaphoric term. Christians are to die or "kill" the flesh in order to be "born again". (Maybe while the two are working, the graves are being emptied).
But don't forget, the bible does tell us that some things will never be fully understood by us. It is so with Scientific studies as well. Faith to believe what you don't understand is what it takes.
Contradiction? When reading the bible, there must be an open heart. We should not read the bible with suspicion if it is our desire to know what we believe. It all comes from faith in God. Sometimes, one scripture that seems contradictory to another is actually speaking on different terms/ situations, usually talking about another topic altogther. (you are to stop, drop and roll when you are on fire/ not because you visit the fire station).
Questions are good Captain. It requires us to study more, then pray.
Great question, I enjoyed reading all of the answers. The Bible is confusing to me. I usually look towards my pastor for answers. He always tells me if he does not have an answer, he will find it for me. With so many different religions, what is the truth is my question.
Certainly we can see that religions have not provided any truths. Your pastor will not tell you this truth.
All the messengers prophets of all the revealed religions of the world are Truthful in origin; all believing in ONE true Creator God; that is the Truth you are looking for.
1. In Ezekiel it says that each person is responsible for their own sin and it isn't passed on through the bloodline. I don't need Adam to do my sinning. "All have sinned and come short of the Glory."
2. If you want to see a thorough study that settles the issue . . . "Left Behind or Right Ahead?" If you are clever you will find it. It must be around here somewhere.
3. "Perfect Love cats out fear" . . . I assume doubt goes with it.
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