What happened to an atheist to make him/her convert to Christianity?

Jump to Last Post 1-39 of 39 discussions (929 posts)
  1. Claire Evans profile image69
    Claire Evansposted 13 years ago

    It's easy to deconvert to atheism because they are disappointed, hurt or because they have lost their faith due to God making sense.  It's harder to suddenly make a rational atheists convert to Christianity, which is faith-based.  How does it happen?

    1. profile image0
      jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      When they lose their mental balance, when they become like you, they'll be Christians!

      1. By His Way profile image61
        By His Wayposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Awww...that's not nice!  lol

        1. profile image0
          jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I know, but she herself said she is undergoing treatment(even ECT) for mental illness.

          1. By His Way profile image61
            By His Wayposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Oh....well... we all have issues.

        2. Claire Evans profile image69
          Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Truth is, for someone who has an alleged high IQ, Jomine sure is ignorant.  A quick google check on depression will show even the most simple person that depression doesn't mean psychosis.  When people hear "mental illness", they assume someone is in a strait jacket.  It's kind of like those people in the Middle Ages who believed people with epilepsy were possessed by demons, confined to their own ignorance.  Unfortunately, ignorance causes a lot of harm.

          1. By His Way profile image61
            By His Wayposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I'm all about not giving reaction. smile  Don't feed into this (in general). None of us are defined by others. Remember this. smile ((hugs))

          2. profile image0
            jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Truth is I don't have to google, I've standard psychiatry textbooks.
            Depression can cause delusion. Since you like to "google", google Depressive Psychosis and its treatment.
            But in your case, I don't even have to know you have depression, your posts show you have delusion.

            1. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Don't forget paranoia.

              1. profile image0
                jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Yup, paranoid delusion.

              2. Claire Evans profile image69
                Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I swear this guy Jomine is obsessed with me.  He can't leave me alone!

                There is major depression and there is psychotic major depression.  They are not one and the same.

                I don't have to toss and turn at night wondering if I'm psychotic.  I'm sure my psychiatrist would have told me or my family by now if I suffer from psychosis.

                People like Jomine would love to see me as psychotic.  It means they can feel secure in the belief that whatever I say is nonsense.

                1. profile image0
                  jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't leave you alone because I don't leave Nonsense alone, nothing personal. Others just post foolish arguments but you fill the forums with your paranoia.
                  Regarding your psychiatrist, either he is too lazy to elicit your paranoid Delusions or he knows it but didn't tell you for fear of aggravating your condition or he might be a really wise guy who knew there is no point in treating, for the disease is incurable.

      2. Brent Hale profile image59
        Brent Haleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Do mentally-balanced people go out of their way to attack someone simply because that someone posed a question that they do not like?

        1. Dallas Matier profile image85
          Dallas Matierposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Are you attacking athiests or religious people with this comment? It can be hard to tell sometimes.

          1. Brent Hale profile image59
            Brent Haleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Hey Dallas, the question is intended for jomine, in regards to his response to Claire's original post.

          2. profile image0
            Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I suspect the former. Jomine was attacking -- insulting? -- Christians, and Hale was attacking(?) Jomine's attack. However, it is possible that Hale was just asking a rhetorical question.

            1. Brent Hale profile image59
              Brent Haleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              I meant no disrespect to anyone's personal beliefs. I meant to point out jomine's hypocrisy in his cowardly personal attack on Claire.

              1. profile image0
                jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Deleted

                1. Brent Hale profile image59
                  Brent Haleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  It is COWARDLY to respond to a completely neutral question with a smug comment aimed to attack the person who asked the question. It is an even greater act of COWARDICE to justify your attack with the fact that the person you are attacking has addressed the issue in which you are attacking.

                  It is HYPOCRITICAL to act the way you have and then imply that SOMEONE ELSE is the mentally-unstable one.

                  1. profile image0
                    jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    "Cowardice is the perceived failure to demonstrate sufficient mental robustness and courage in the face of a challenge." So I just faced the question and answered that  it need "unsound mind" to convert to religious.

                    I'm not implying I'm stating that she is ill.

                  2. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Civility has no penalty and no cost, which is why I'm uncertain why more people don't practice it.

                    Some of the respondents here -- some of the respondents on virtually every forum on the Internet -- apparently have no idea how poorly they represent themselves. Many do have an idea, but they don't care. They further don't care that every time they open their mouth, or every time they click "submit," they are, deliberately or not, acting as a spokesperson for their own demographic. Maybe some of them are double agents, striving to make their actual opponents look bad.

                    I'm not going to name names, but you know who are are.

              2. profile image0
                jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Hypocrisy?
                Cowardly?
                Do you understand the words or are you just using it to look intelligent?

        2. profile image0
          jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          It is just a fact. No atheist 'convert' to be a 'religious person' by thinking. They do it out of fear or 'experience'(Hope and fear), which means they were never atheists but just god haters or just "believers"(who favor argument from authority).
          Claire is special case, is a patient, who'll never get any sympathy from me.
          PS. Doesn't mean I agree with atheists, nor disagree with the question. If the question was asked by any normal person, I would have answered 'normally', the above would be my answer.

    2. pisean282311 profile image60
      pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      @claire it would be harder to make any rationlist thinker believe in myths...i dont think any thinking christians believes bible literally...he/she might be believing in essence but not word by word...

      1. Claire Evans profile image69
        Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        But this still does not answer my question.  Why suddenly believe the Holy Spirit exists?

        1. pisean282311 profile image60
          pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          @claire didnt get u....who believes in holy spirit other than die hard fans of religion?

          1. Claire Evans profile image69
            Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            But how do atheists go from atheism to die-hard religion fans?

            1. pisean282311 profile image60
              pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              @claire ok now i get it...how do i know?...atheist is not name of individual...it is like why christians are leaving Christianity in europe?...now christian too is not name of one individual...guess every one would have their own reason for leaving or taking anything...

              1. Claire Evans profile image69
                Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                In other words, you don't know the answer to my question.

                1. pisean282311 profile image60
                  pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  @claire yes i dont...any answer which i give u would be mere speculation...

                  1. Paul Wingert profile image60
                    Paul Wingertposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    An athiest that turns to religion is pretty rare. My guess as of why that would happen, is the atheist suddenly becomes a mentally lazy individual who suddenly can't think of themself.

    3. aguasilver profile image77
      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      For me it was I guess growing up and realising one day that I was not convinced that there was nothing after death. I would have been about 35 then I guess.

      Proving there is nothing is harder than disbelieving because nobody has presented 'evidence' that there is something.

      The next logical step was to start trying to prove that there was nothing after death to my own satisfaction, to at least solve that doubt.

      That involved studying what religions stated about the matter, which led to some 'spiritual' experiences, which caused me to think that even if there was nothing after death, there was definitely something unseen but proactive that existed around me, and mainly it was friendly and made me feel good.

      This also started a period of involvement with paganism and witchcraft, rune stones and tarot cards, and getting deeper and deeper into dark areas, and loving every minute of it, until I realised I was attracting pretty heavy dark forces to me.

      I think my 40th birthday was the turning point, it's when I realised that my life was NOT what I had wanted or planned, it was what had happened to me, whilst making other plans (to paraphrase Lennon).

      Finding faith was not a conversion, it ended up being a defection to escape the forces that I had invoked and were 'influencing' me.

      Crossing over was a battle, as the former spiritual forces I had engaged attempted to dissuade me, and then tried to get me to kill myself.

      One day, alone in my house as my wife had taken the baby to a friends as she was scared of what was happening, the big battle took place between our enemy and Christ.

      I declared that whoever won was my owner for life, and as both told me they were the stronger force, I was in the position of knowing that no matter what, I no longer owned my soul. The only question was which spiritual entity would possess my rights and who I would serve.

      Christ definitively won the fight, and I have served Him since, hence I was a defector, not a convert, and came from atheism for the simple reason that I could not 100% disbelieve what I disbelieved, and I suspected that what existed may be something that I needed to consider.

      Truth be known I suspect that most atheists are in the same condition, which is why they protest so much against any believers message or scriptural correction.

      They also suspect that what they disbelieve is not totally unbelievable, which causes them to shout ever louder in the hope that we may stop reminding them of their doubts and fears.

      Why else would someone who denies God exists be afraid of a Hell they also deny exists?

      Illogical.

      1. pisean282311 profile image60
        pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        @agua got that...though i dont believe in god but i get ur point and your share did put your point across very well...

        1. aguasilver profile image77
          aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks, I understand that, after all I was in total disbelief until I was 35 years old, then spent 7 years going through spiritual things, before coming to faith at 42 years of age, so I never expect that anyone can truly say they are 100% secure in their beliefs and will never revise them.

          However after nearly 20 years in faith, I am still challenging my faith daily (and that is possibly what 'pick up your cross daily' refers to.) and proving it more and more.

          Would I now stop being a believer?

          I seriously doubt it, I find more evidence for faith as I live this life, and see more intervention of God as I trust Him more, but then that is me, we are all different.

          I don't think God expects us to accept what is said in the scriptures, if He had, He would have made it impossible to NOT believe, I think it is like all examinations; designed to test whether you have truly studied the subject and understood the questions correctly, and having done that answered the test questions (how you live) accurately.

          I was always hopeless at examinations! smile

          John

      2. Claire Evans profile image69
        Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks for your story! I don't think there is any atheist out there that would reject Jesus after seeing His power of evil like you did. 

        Here's a testimony of a former atheist who had a NDE and converted to Christianity after the ordeal was over. 

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3adbayvKWA

        It is logical to think it is not probable that there is nothing after death.   Scientists now know consciousness is separate from the body.  It is not in responsible to brain waves but vice versa.

        Atheists can deny this all they are like but they are on these forums because they want to be convinced God doesn't exist because the idea of hell does scare them.  By belittling Christians, they believe it makes them more right.

        Sad really.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Maybe you should be adding links to the authority scientific papers produced that prove this instead of YT videos?

          Odd this proof of life after death you have was not widely reported.

          That is logical thinking? Gosh - I got it all mixed up. I am not scared of hell. Trust me - if you are correct in what comes after death - I welcome it.

          No wonder your religion causes so many fights. sad

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            No nde experiences?

            Why, there are hundreds of thousands of testimonies of out of body experiences and visions of things that are not of this world.

            Liars for Satan. (TM)

            smile

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Anyone can misinterpret a dream, especially Christians when they have dreams related to their beliefs, people can tell stories, lie, hallucinate....  this is why evidence is so important...  take the chupacabra, how many people have claimed to see this creature?  how old do you think this story is?  some people claim it's been around for centuries....  however, the very first mention of this creature was in 1995 in Puerto Rico, after this incident and mention by a comedian who coined the term, many people cliamed sightings all over the World, especially in Latin America where the story originated.  However, the woman who first reported the sighting described a creature resembling one from a movie, one that she had seen just hours earlier....  the Movie? Species.
              Now, if this lady reports this fictional creature as real even though it was purely from her imagination based on a movie she just viewed and many people after words claimed to have seen the same things and even start claiming animals that they have never seen before as being this creature, how credible is eye witness testimony of any kind?

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                New approach mabye?

                Chasing your tail here.

                Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit - Denial......

                smile

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Ha ha ha, you can believe whatever you like, but it only makes you look like more of a moronic asshole.

        2. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          "Scientists now know..." Uh, which scientists? The ones I work with say nothing of the sort. Where consciousness resides in the brain is widely understood.The phenomena reported by those who experience NDE's are fairly well understood, but even still, how would one know that one was having a "religious" experience and not a hallucination? Where are the YT videos of people who were raised Hindu, with no exposure to Christianity who had NDE's, saw Jesus and converted? These experiences always follow what people have been brought up to believe.

          1. Claire Evans profile image69
            Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            While it is true that it hasn't been scientifically proven consciousness is separate from the brain, there is evidence, though.  It cannot be explained why people born blind can see in NDEs. 

            More info:

            http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

            http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html#a3

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              "While it is true that it hasn't been scientifically proven consciousness is separate from the brain, there is evidence, though." 

              Consciousness has scientifically been proven to not be separate from the brain actually, if you damage the brain you damage a persons consciousness, or other such functions of his entire mental and mechanical abilities.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Ridiculous...

                If you damage a car, you hinder the persons ability to drive it. Doesn't mean the person is damaged....

                How much obvious do I need to point out?

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  There is no evidence that the brain is not the driver, or that there is a spiritual presence to this body, the body is the driver.  How stupid are you that you can't prove this soul if it exists as being a separate part of the body....  you can't prove that something is then you might as well believe any silly notions that get told to you, like fairies and such....  obvious?  Prove the soul, that would make it obvious....  what if the car is damaged?  What if the driver is damaged?  Or is the Driver indestructible??? 
                  Sounds like you are in some sort of lame fantasy world....  I'm done with your inane stupid unprovable ideas that you think are so obvious.

                  1. aguasilver profile image77
                    aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    "... just like it's ridiculous to wash your hands in a childbirth ward, silly notion, no evidence that it does anything, this damn fella, calls himself a doctor and want to change the whole medical professions scientific knowledge because he BELIEVES that washing hands would save lives.... shouldn't be allowed to practice, unscientific fool"

                    Yes I can hear your counterparts shouting this just as loudly, and just as ignorantly, because THEY were ignorant of bacteria (which therefore obviously could not exist, as THEY could not prove it evidentially)

                    Yeah, good case, you ONLY believe in what has (to date) been measured by scientists, anybody else who actually has experiences of things you cannot see must be wrong.

                    Perfectly logical.

                    PS. Yes the driver is indestructible, all that remains to be determined is which 'vehicle' they drive after they trash the one God gave them.

            2. kerryg profile image83
              kerrygposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              I like how you accept unproven science as true when it fits into your belief system and reject it when it doesn't. That is some truly impressive compartmentalization.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image68
                A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Unfortunately many people do that to one degree or another.

              2. Claire Evans profile image69
                Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Well, atheists assume God doesn't exist even though science hasn't disproved Him.  I can't accept that all anecdotes from people who have had NDEs are false.  If scientists and doctors seriously consider consciousness being separate from the brain then I think it is worth believing in.  If I didn't know God then I would be on the fence on this issue.

        3. artblack01 profile image60
          artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Funny, I was hit by a car, woke up in a hospital, was told that my heart stopped several times and they almost gave up.
          Well, it wasn't funny at the time, but the expectations for me turning to God were, for me at least, totally hilarious.

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Wonder how many other things you haven't experienced others have.

            smile

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Yeah I wonder what thing a schizophrenic experiences that I will never experience... Hmmm, moving on.

            2. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              The thing is people can experience all sorts of things, much of which don't interest me.  If something interests me then I go out of my way to try and experience them.  However I am also not delusional, I studied many claims in my life to find out if there were any truths to them.  From Psychic abilities to telekinetic powers to UFOs, Ghosts, etc....  There was always some way I could convincingly recreate these with everyday science or show that it was a misunderstanding or hoax.
              Sorry to tell you, people lie, and I am not one to tell the lie to because I can always tell when someone is lying.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Oh BOY!

                That last line is a KEEPER!!!

                lol lol lol

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Take it to the bank and save it, you'll need it when reality vanishes.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh my goodness.. lol

                    Keep going..

                    PLEASEEE.. lol

                    You are KILLING me here... lololol

        4. artblack01 profile image60
          artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Actually that isn't the case, but you can continue to believe that if you like.

          1. aguasilver profile image77
            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            methinks thou protesteth too much sir.

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Probably, but fascist little Christians tend to make me that way.

    4. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
      Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      If the atheist is gullible and just hasnt heard of any gods, then just tell them what to believe. In my experience, if you use god to explain something to them that they dont understand (usually emotions) then they will bite. If they are not gullible like me and want to see verifiable evidence, then you will have to verifiably demonstrate that your god exists.

      1. Claire Evans profile image69
        Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Can you tell me what happened when God was used to explain something they didn't understand in your experience?

      2. A Thousand Words profile image68
        A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Actually, dogmatic Atheists and dogmatic Christians aren't all that different. Just take Big Bang theory, "God doesn't exist," and whatever else that they believe without much understanding in the matter, and replace it with Creation and God, and BOOM. Atheist->Christian. Like magic.

        On a serious note, Atheists who reason in the same manner as the devoutly religious in general tend to be more apt to lean towards a religion if it strikes a certain chord in them. Especially people who are only Atheists because everyone else around them is, too. Far too many people are uneducated about religion, the psychology behind many of them, etc. Because of that, when they find out something they believed about a religion to be wrong, and are introduced to ideas that they've never really encountered before, they are filled with curiosity, and often more open to the "nicer" side of religion. People with extremist (either this or that, no in between) tendencies are also more likely to convert. I know many Christians, and was that way myself who have a black and white, no gray area attitude.

        (You know what happens when a girl grows up in a town with a bunch of men who all act, look, dress the same, and she feels trapped, but then this foreigner comes out of nowhere who is completely different, he stirs up an interest and curiosity in her, and they "fall in love." She thinks the man is super special, and becomes blind to the fact that when she experience more of the world, there are in fact other guys similar to him, and that he isn't all that special, but they're "in love," and she's convinced that he's one of a kind and the one for her, and there's no other guy like him, and even if he has some REALLY bad tendencies, including telling her that she's nothing without him, but she'll stick up for him no matter what, because she sees him with rose-colored glasses and believes she has no other options.)

        It is highly unlikely that a more level headed, educated (near objectively about religions in general and the psychological aspect of it) Atheist would so easily be converted to an idea that really works outside of his or her realm of thinking. Not saying that it's a "higher" level of thinking, per se, just a very, very different one.

        (In my example, a girl, who, though she grew up with a bunch of bland men, would see the new comer and not think him to be anything special, having learned already about how guys like him exist, and while indeed they are different, different doesn't equal special, and would thusly not be whisked aware by his "something new"-ish charm.)

        1. A Thousand Words profile image68
          A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I'm not saying this is always the case, for those of you who'll want to throw a tantrum. Just usually.

          Also notice when I speak of one being uneducated, I mostly mean, which is why I said, not being educated properly about the religion, it's real beliefs, and the psychological aspects, not that the people themselves aren't intelligent in other fields. ALthough, this is also a factor, but there are intelligent Atheists who have converted to Christianity, so understand that is not what I'm saying.

        2. Claire Evans profile image69
          Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          You are dead right about this! lol



          Excellent answer.  I think many people convert to Christianity because of the idea of heaven and rewards.  I wonder how many would still be Christian if you had to tell them life is really hard as a Christian because of the onslaught of the devil.



          I don't think I've ever come across an atheist who was born one  Mostly they do not feel the need to continuously slam religion.  I think many atheists block any chance of conversion by a mental block in their heads.  They have been disillusioned by Christianity and have no desire to go back and so they will filter out the positive and concentrate on the negative and spread that around hoping others will abandon their faith, too.

          Thanks!

          1. artblack01 profile image60
            artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I don't think that's true at all. For me as an atheist my reason for becoming one is purely the need to believe in reality vs fantasy. People can believe what they want doesn't make them good or bad, anyone of any belief can be really evil. For myself, I would rather believe what is true and real and I am happy with my belief. I am not scared for empty religious threats of damnation and not tempted by empty religious promises of "salvation".
            With all that I am aware of I can't believe anyone would feel the need to believe in such fantasies.

        3. twosheds1 profile image60
          twosheds1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Why does there have to be any "understanding in the matter?" Do I have to have special knowledge of fairies to assert that they don't exist? Atheism is to religion as NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

          1. A Thousand Words profile image68
            A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            ... What are you talking about?

      3. profile image0
        Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        The few atheist-to-Christian converts who I've known were atheists for emotional rather than intellectual reasons, so the conversion was easy.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image68
          A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Always concise.

        2. Claire Evans profile image69
          Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Interestingly enough, the most "rational" and die-hard atheist Richard Dawkins is now an agnostic.  He cannot be sure a God doesn't exist.  In fact, he thinks we might be genetically engineered by aliens. 

          http://www.theoligarch.com/richard-dawkins-aliens.htm

          1. profile image0
            Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Of course, Dawkins is an agnostic. Most atheists are, in precisely the same way that Dawkin's defines it in "The God Delusion: "I am agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden."

            Dawkins entertains the possibility that we were genetically engineered by aliens. So what? He also entertains the possibility of fairies at the bottom of the garden.

            1. Claire Evans profile image69
              Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Come on, now.  He only recently admitted to their being a possibility God exists.  He was always known as an atheist.  What we was trying to say that he is open-minded to the possibility that God exists like he entertains the idea that fairies exist at the bottom of the garden.  He was being sarcastic.

              A woman once asked him, "Has it ever occurred to you that you may be wrong?" He responded, "Oh, yes, but I teapot could also be orbiting the earth."

              Clear sarcasm.

              This is what he wrote in, "The God Delusion":

              Dawkins in the “God Delusion” is fond of quoting fellow atheist Bertrand Russell’s story of the celestial teapot.  Here is Dawkins telling the story, “If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving around the sun in a elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by out most powerful telescopes.  But if I were to go on and say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it.  I should rightly be thought of talking nonsense.  If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”

              Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion (Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin Co., 2006) p. 52

          2. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Unlike believers who are steadfast in their absolute beliefs, Dawkins entertains a whole lot of ideas and offers anyone with a claim to explain themselves and provide the evidence for their explanations. It's called having an open mind.

            1. profile image0
              AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Or, if you prefer, the scientific method.

            2. Claire Evans profile image69
              Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              I think Dawkins would be chuffed if he knew you stood up for him! I entertain a lot of ideas.  You could say those who are close-minded are those who say God is imaginary.  You're not really open-minded when it comes to Jesus being the son of God.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image68
                A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Are you open minded to the possibility, Claire, that Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, and all of those gods exist(ed)? What about the Norse Gods? The Hindu Brahman(all of the other deities are manifestations of Brahman, quite similarly to the Christian idea of Trinity and thus hinduism is falsely called a polytheistic religion)? If no, why? Your answer may surely sound much like why many people in these forums don't believe in Jesus and the like... Though it may be "different" to you.

                1. Claire Evans profile image69
                  Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  To compare those gods with Jesus is erroneous.  There are extra-biblical sources that attest to Jesus' existence.  If people thought the gods you mentioned above existed, I'd be interested to hear their case.  I have also never come across someone who claims they have a relationship with Zeus, for example.

                  1. janesix profile image60
                    janesixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    14 percent of the human population believes in Brahman

                    Hinduism is also thousands of years older than christianity

                    Interesting how your jesus is so similar to krishna, mithras, osiris and so on....

                    1. Claire Evans profile image69
                      Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Not this tripe again!!

              2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                No, I'm not standing up for him but instead making a point that although he entertains a lot of ideas, he doesn't accept the ones that have no evidence.



                Ridiculous. There is no evidence for God or Jesus.

                1. Claire Evans profile image69
                  Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  If you say so!

                  1. aguasilver profile image77
                    aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    What else can a rebel say?

                    The guy who shot 77 people (Anders Breivik) told the court that he did not recognise their authority to try him.

                    OK that's his opinion, and he is entitled to hold it, but no matter what he thinks, he is on trial for his crimes, and that's a fact that cannot be disputed.

                    Not recognising authority changes not a thing.

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      But you have no authority. Your Super Being does not exist.

                      See how that is not the same thing at all?

          3. artblack01 profile image60
            artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I love how people lie and quote mine and take things completely out of context and that people are too lazy too confirm whether this silliness is true or not.

            1. Claire Evans profile image69
              Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              How did I take it out of context?

              1. artblack01 profile image60
                artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Not you specifically, the authors of the article. I have seen many interviews and usually when these guys talk of aliens or repentance it's usually some sort of joke or what if statement that they totally dismiss. Chris hitchens had cancer and he said the only way he would repent to any sort of god is if we're not in his right mind/ demented in some way, someone took that quote and wrote an article using part of what he said in that video to make it appear he had repented to god... You've got understand these men and the context for which they are speaking.  I have not seen the original source for this material so I don't know where it came from but I can assure you it's a lie... And you believed it.

                1. Claire Evans profile image69
                  Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, you can watch it come out of his own mouth.

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyT_AOtwHa4

                  1. artblack01 profile image60
                    artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Oh yeah, Ben Stein, I trust that source, Ben Stein, king liar...  Dawkins didn't say that intelligent design was possible he said you'd have to first of all prove that something was designed and then you'd have to shown who designed the designer....  he never admitted to the possibility of intelligent design....  Let's continue to take things out of context and twist words Clair and Ben!!!

                    That's also something I've said myself here many times, doesn't mean I was also admitting to this possibility!

                    1. Claire Evans profile image69
                      Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Ben asks what is the possibility that intelligent design might turn out to answer to some issue to genetics or evolution.  Dawkins thinks that some civilization may have evolved from some Darwinian means somewhere in the galaxy.  Just to add, evolution doesn’t prove there is no intelligent design.  It just explains how we evolved over the aeons.  He goes go to say they may have designed a form of life.  We can consider the civilization as intelligent beings DESIGNING a form of life.  That means we are the products of intelligent design.  He says that is a possibility.  He says that may be true if you find detail in molecular biology, a sort of signature of some sort of designer is there.  He is just plain admitting there is all else he wouldn’t entertain the possibility.  There either is a signature or there is not.  No possibilities just facts.  He says that designer could be of higher intelligence and that those intelligent designers had to have come from some explicable process.  It couldn’t have just “jumped” into existence, he says.  This is exactly what people for ID have been saying for yonks now.

                      I don’t know what there is not to understand about what he said.  Having said this, I think the “outside commentary” is just plain tripe.

                      You are twisting his words! Nowhere in the video does Dawkins mention the word "prove". He keeps saying, "That's a possibility".

      4. spartucusjones profile image80
        spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        For myself I don't consider myself a Christian and I denounce religion, but I did go from being an atheist to believing in a creator. For me both my parents are atheists, and I raised with that background.

        Eventually it came to the point that a study of science and evolutionary reasoning left a lot of unanswered questions.  Of course a belief in creation also left a lot of unanswered questions. So I was leaning towards being an agnostic  but I didn't like the idea of not committing. So I decided that for me it was a bigger leap of faith to accept evolutionary reasoning than to accept evidence of design.

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          A lot of people do this. Don't understand science? No problem - believe in god instead.

          It is refreshing to see some one honest enough to admit this. Well done. Thumbs up and voted "honest."

          1. aguasilver profile image77
            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Except that's not what he said, he clearly found evolutionary reasoning less believable than evidence of design... so why would you attempt to twist his words...

            Why I wonder?......Oh yes, you need to be right all the time, don't you. smile

            Hmmmm...thinking back over your 18,554 posts.... in 4 years, WOW that's nearly 13 posts per day, no wonder you need to keep them down to inane one liners that try to divert the topic you choose to pester.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Awww - A while ago you were attacking some one for not being active enough to be taken seriously. Now you are attacking me for the opposite.

              No wonder your religion causes so much ill will and hatred. No morals - that is your problem.

              I am right all the time. Sorry if that offends your god. Pity he cannot speak for himself and instead uses you to speak for him. Be a man for a change and speak for yourself.

              1. aguasilver profile image77
                aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Ok Mark, I think you are one of the wonders of Hubpages forums, and I truly do like you, despite the fact that I find you a regal pain in the rear end most of the time. smile

                But you can do better than you do manage, and I appreciate you run sites as well and do your SEO etc, so time is short, but I would rather have one good detailed cutting to the bone response, that actually made me think,(and some of yours have) than a swift inane and mostly the same, quip, shot off as you do whatever else you do.

                Do quality, over quantity would be my suggestion.

                John smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Sorry your god did not understand. As I know you do not speak for yourself and instead speak for this god - I have to say - I am not impressed.

                  Should I use shorter words? Would that help your god understand?

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Hmm. I suppose you expect the almighty to come before you and prove himself at your request?

                    I'm not impressed either.

                    smile

                    1. artblack01 profile image60
                      artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Expectation of belief requires courtesy of appearance.

        2. spartucusjones profile image80
          spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I never said I didn't understand. If anything my problem with the whole evolution/God issue is that the method of proof was very unscientific.

          Generally the whole idea of any scientific experiment is to test the hypothesis before excepting it as proven fact. The problem with evolutionary reasoning is it starts with the premise that their is no designer. So your mind is made up before you even start the experiment.

          I would just like to see science use the same process to analyze this question as they do everything else. Also don't be close minded if someone suggest even the remote possibility of something different. Do the experiment with a open mind, with full objectivity.

          If after examining the evidence you come to the conclusion that their is no God, I have no problem with that. But their is no need to dismiss someone as being unintelligent just because they come to a different conclusion. I'm turned off by the attitude of devout atheists the same way that I'm turned off by religious fanatics. Both school of thoughts are potentially divisive.

          To both groups, believe what you want, have intelligent discussions on forums, but respect the rights and views of others

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Not sure where you got that idea, but the premise of evolutionary reasoning is simply natural selection and diversity of species and has nothing to do with making up ones mind beforehand.

            1. spartucusjones profile image80
              spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              I was expressing a common viewpoint that I've observed (and even had myself at one point). My father is a biology teacher and I certainty viewed that attitude in him. 

              For example natural selection and diversity as of itself doesn't necessary rule out design. But it does if you already have come to the conclusion that there is no designer beforehand.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Then, he is a terrible biology teacher.



                No, lack of evidence for design rules out design. Natural selection and diversity of species explains the appearance of design.

                1. spartucusjones profile image80
                  spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  My point is, that people in the scientific community are not even allowed to suggest even the remotest possibility that the evidence may point to a designer without being censured. To me that is close minded and unscientific.

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    That is entirely false and ridiculous. Scientists don't suggest design because the understand evolution and that there is no evidence whatsoever for design.



                    Sure, it would be if it weren't entirely false and ridiculous.

          2. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            *Goes on to explain why he doesn't understand.*


            No - you never said you didn't understand, but what you said made it clear that you do not understand.

            This is why belief in majik causes so much ill will.

            1. spartucusjones profile image80
              spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              The only thing that causes ill will is close minded individuals from both schools of thoughts.

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                No - the ill will comes from people who insist on claiming majik and accusing anyone who doesn't believe in majik as being close minded.

                Such as yourself.

                1. spartucusjones profile image80
                  spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I already said I could care less what people believe. I have no problem with atheists. I can understand how someone could come to that conclusion. I'm not here to try to convince anyone of anything. My point is we shouldn't dismiss someone as unintelligent because they chose to believe something different than we do. It is the lack of tolerance from both sides that cause the ill will.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Odd - it is only people who believe in majik who insist on this. lol

                    1. spartucusjones profile image80
                      spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      You insist that the ill will comes only from one side, and religious fanatics tend to do the same.

                      But there is no ill will if everyone can respect everyone's personal views.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Even if what they believe contradicts intelligence? How does that work?

                    1. spartucusjones profile image80
                      spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Someone having a different view doesn't necessary contradict intelligence.

          3. profile image0
            scottcgruberposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            And how, exactly, would one design an experiment to test evidence of deliberate design of living things by an unobservable entity?

            Bear in mind that science is naturalistic by nature - if it can't be documented, measured, or observed in the real world, it cannot be cited as a cause and thus is in the realm of philosophy rather than science.

            If, on the other hand, a measurable, physical entity could be shown manipulating gene mutations or influencing epigenetics, then this force would be a natural force by definition and could no longer be considered supernatural. So the Creationists lose again.

            1. spartucusjones profile image80
              spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              I wasn't suggesting an experiment to prove that there is a designer. I was merely suggesting that when the data in not conclusive, don't be quick to dismiss individuals that feel that design is a possibility.

              1. profile image0
                scottcgruberposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                The issue is not that the data is inconclusive. There IS no data.

                No matter how you try to word it, the design argument is philosophical and thus inherently unscientific. In order for scientists to take design seriously as a legitimate force influencing evolutionary processes, this needs to be proven by hypothesis testing and experiment.

                This is not to say that some scientists cannot hold a personal belief in design or theistic influence while studying the natural forces that shape life. Dr. Francis Collins, current NIH director and known for his work on the Human Genome Project, is outspoken in his views in favor of theistic evolution. Surveys have shown a small minority of scientists who hold similar views.

                The problem I have with the design argument is that it's a manufactured controversy, made up by Creationists in order to insert religion into science textbooks. While I think everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, to believe in intelligent design is to support the Discovery Institute's wedge strategy via a pathetic argument from ignorance.

                That I cannot respect.

                1. spartucusjones profile image80
                  spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't feel that religion should be introduced into science textbook either. But I'm also anti-religion, and I'm don't necessary consider myself 100% firm believer, I just lean towards the possibility of a designer.

                  But my point is more that scientists should be allowed that leeway, just like the small minority that you have mentioned. I don't feel that the minority should be dismissed as any less intelligent because they submit to a differing viewpoint.

              2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                What data is inconclusive exactly?

                1. spartucusjones profile image80
                  spartucusjonesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Both evolution and creation does not answer all of the questions, and neither side can provide 100% conclusive evidence to support their claims.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    I Respect that. Majik is the same as science. Why would I not respect that?

                    1. Jerami profile image59
                      Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      It takes OHhh so much blind faith to believe that if science hasn't discovered it by now; there is nothing about it to know! 
                      sciense probably knows less than one %  of the facts concerning the universe and all of the reality contained therein.
                         I agree with you that many things have been misconceptualized, but that doesn't mean that there is nothing there.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Creationism has zero evidence, evolution has mountains of evidence in every facet of science, conclusive to the point of evolution being a fact.

                    So, what data have you found that is inconclusive? Please explain what you find about evolution that is wrong?

        3. artblack01 profile image60
          artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          What evidence for design? I have yet to see anything that would make me think that anything in the universe that is naturally occurring was designed.  Whenever someone doesn't understand something they always say "a god did it" without bothering to do the research to find out how it could have actually come about.

      5. oceansnsunsets profile image82
        oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Hi Claire, the atheists that I know of that have converted to Christianity have shared their stories.  Two that I know of, said it was because they looked honestly at all the facts, were willing to face their own biases for and against different things, and go where the evidence leaded them.  Almost the same, with varying differences.  It wasn't something concrete like writing in the sky, but rather looking at all things for themselves, honestly, and then asking themselves questions like, "What best explains this world we live in, history, humanity, and the human condition?"  Also, "What explains all we know of in science, philosophy, etc."

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Two? The rarity of even one atheist tossing away his reason and rationale is extreme. They obviously weren't atheists to begin with, no one simply tosses facts out the window they previously understood as facts. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

        2. Claire Evans profile image69
          Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks for your comment.  Those who truly seek will find.  C.S. Lewis took the same approach looking at the facts of the case for Jesus and became convinced.

      6. nightwork4 profile image59
        nightwork4posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        all jokes aside i have seen two people who were atheists become christians. one ended up commiting suicide a few years later and the other one is now a pastor who is under investigation for child abuse . the thing about both of them is that before they got all religious, they were both heavy prescription drug users.

        1. Claire Evans profile image69
          Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Perhaps the one atheist who committed suicide had too high of expectations of Christianity; that it would be the answer to all his/her problems.  The pastor may have converted to Christianity because child abuse is more easily undetected when it involves someone in such an esteemed position.  Christianity was clearly used as a cover.

        2. aguasilver profile image77
          aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Nobody says that once you come to faith the enemy cannot attack you, after all it's stated that he prowls around seeking to destroy 'those he may' and obviously he could succeed with them, which I am sorry to hear.

          The enemy hates losing his acolytes and will always try to regain them, or if that's not possible disable them from serving God.

          Thankfully there are many success stories as well.

          1. artblack01 profile image60
            artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The enemy?  Ha, you mean criminals who claim to be atheists (just because you deny or affirm something doesn't make you a member of that group) use Christianity to do all sorts of horrible things or steal money from other poor stupid believers.  Like Pat Robertson, Robert Schuller, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, John Hagee, just to name a few.  Or someone who is clinically depressed using whatever desperate ideas claim to help people but don't and then commit suicide when their desperate attempt is made with lack of understanding of that persons condition....  it more just proves how impotent Christianity and religion are.

            aguasilver obviously thinks that anyone who does not believe the way he does is in league with the devil and no matter how much proof you give him that he is misguided and wrong on all things he will always claim to be right no matter what....  he says we are close minded and hard hearted?  aguasilver, you are the very definition of this.

            So here is what I will do, let's end this now, let's agree to disagree, you will never convince me that your fantasy is reality and no amount of proof/evidence I give to you for everything science related will ever change your mind because you are stuck in your fantasy world, till you die.  So I will acknowledge you less, I will continue to answer legitimate questions seriously and I will continue to correct errors and lies in all your statements, but I could care less what you believe or disbelieve, because reality always wins, not you not me, but reality.

            1. aguasilver profile image77
              aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Then I am content that God will win, for He is simply a reality you currently cannot understand or measure, but you will one day know the truth, believe me, it will come to you when the time is right.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Agreed.

              2. artblack01 profile image60
                artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                When you can't understand or measure or even find evidence for such a being you can't conclude such a being exists. 
                You can wishful think such a time between me and God will happen but I am content that my life is great without the need for such a fantasy.  So all I can say is sorry you feel bad that I don't share in your fantasy, but I don't and won't...  until your fantasy God feels your fantasy time is right.

      7. heavenbound5511 profile image67
        heavenbound5511posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I know that God is the only one that can cut to there hearts and reveal Himself to all unbelievers.
        If I was seeking for God to intercede I would have to pray in Jesus name.

        Prayer for the Lost

        Here's an example: Father God I pray that you open there eyes,ears and prepare there heart for the ministry of Jesus Christ.
        That you will send the perfect laborer to them to minister the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
        I would bind up the spirit of anti-christ, the spirit of the world,bitterness, and all works of the devil in Jesus name.
        Also I would pray God forgive them of there sins in Jesus name- and the sins of there bloodline relatives. Pull them out of destruction before it is to late in Jesus name. I'd also loose the Holy Spirit and God's angels to surround them, along with pleading the blood of Jesus over there home,families and etc as God leads me to pray.All in Jesus name.Also if there is a picture of them I touch it while praying for them.
        This is ONLY to help those that are seeking to pray for the lost

        1. Claire Evans profile image69
          Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you, heavenbound5511. smile

      8. ib radmasters profile image60
        ib radmastersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        For an atheist to do that, it would probably be caused by a severe blow to the head causing brain damage.

        1. aguasilver profile image77
          aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Funny, I never felt a thing!

          But when I was an atheist I did have a pretty thick skull.

          No, my blow was felt in the 'heart' and in the awakening of my spirit. smile

      9. Titen-Sxull profile image70
        Titen-Sxullposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Christianity and most religions prey upon emotional vulnerability. There's no purely rational reasons to believe the supernatural claims of religion but if they tell you you're a dirty sinner in need of salvation enough times it might start to break through. Let's say you've just lost your job or your wife has left you, perhaps it's caused by some serious flaw you have, a gambling addiction, an affair, etc, then you see some emotionally charged televangelist on TV who seems to be speaking directly to people like you, and then voila, you convert.

        Most sudden conversions I've heard of are those who try to quit alcohol and drugs they find it difficult to do, then they turn to imaginary higher powers for help and when they finally do quit all credit goes to Jesus, Allah or whatever God they believed in.

        1. aguasilver profile image77
          aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          ...and your point is?

          Sure, when folk realise that the life THEY have made for themselves is actually not working, they seek answers outside of their SELF and outside of what the WORLD taught them, and it may well be that some slick TV evangelist reaches through their EGO (which is temporarily shattered by the aforesaid events you depicted) and presents a picture that is appealing. So what?

          I remember once berating Benny Hinn as he pranced around the stage in front of a huge crowd of people, I asked God why He allowed this man to sully His name with such antics...

          "Could YOU reach these folk?" He asked.

          And as I watched the crowd, I realised that these folk were just like the guy you mentioned above, leading hopeless worldly lives of affluence with no substance, and prepared to look at Benny Hinns show because he was looking just like them and was saying what they WANTED to hear, give me your money and God will bless you 100 fold.

          HOW God gets our attention is less relevant that the fact that He DOES.

          Like scripture states He goes after the one lost sheep more than worries about what the other 99 are doing in the field.

          He uses many different ways to break through the world lies and deceptions that lure people away from Him and into their own private hells.

          I thank God that He cares.



          ...again, so what?

          You just made the case perfectly, quit while you are ahead!

          People make a mess of their lives living as the world prescribes, then when their lives crash and burn they turn to God, and get healed, and give the credit to God.

          I would think that is an obvious thing to do?

          If you made a total financial mess of your life and went to your Father and he paid all your debts and put you back into a sound life with no further problems.

          Wouldn't YOU give HIM the glory, praise and thanks?.

          Methinks thou protesteth too much.

          I was one of those folk who ignored God until my life hit the ground and shattered in pieces, and God did send Christ to pick me up and restore me to His Grace and Mercy, and that was 20 years ago, and He still carries me today, not because I still have those problems, but because I know His arms are stronger than mine, and for as long as I let Christ make the running in my life, I need have no concern for the world trying to destroy me again.

          The point we all need to decide is WHAT do we believe?

          I am 100% secure in my faith in God and Christ.

          If I am wrong and the Muslims are correct, then I would burn in their hell, but I have no fear of that happening because I am 100% secure that Christ is the answer.

          If you are 100% secure in your beliefs that knowledge is the answer, or whatever YOU believe, then that is great, and I am delighted that you found your beliefs and are secure in them.

          But why are you bothering to chase people who have different beliefs from you?

          It makes no sense, and will achieve nothing.

          Those who are still less than 100% secure in their beliefs will continue vacillating around until they reach whatever belief answers ALL of their doubts, or they run out of time and die, when they will find out which beliefs were correct.

          We daily stake our lives and deaths upon what we believe, you have made your decision, we all will find out the truth, so why all this verbiage trying to reconvert or de-convert folk who are not shifting?

          I have tasted and seen that the Lord is good, and is sufficient in all things for me, if you have 100% belief in something else, congratulations, I am happy for you.

          1. profile image0
            jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            why do you?

          2. EinderDarkwolf profile image62
            EinderDarkwolfposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I think you completely missed the point.

            No, that's not what he said at all. What he said is, religions take advantage of peoples emotional states and there own brow beating to try and force people to convert there ways. After enough brow beating (torture of a type for those who don't know that) people end up submitting instead of leading their own lives. They even quit thinking for themselves and fall in with the crowd.

            As for the losing the wife and the job because of a gambling addiction and/or affair, remember that he didn't say that these things changed. Your just jumping to the conclusion that they did. In fact, these very issues tend to persist and not change, the difference? At least when they die they are expecting a paradise where it's not going to hurt them to do it!

            It seems like for someone who has an IQ almost equal to Einsteins, you have absolutely no common sense what so ever. And you reading is well below sub-par.



            Ahh! I finally understand! When I make a change in MY life, I'm not the one responsible for that change! I finally understand what your saying!

            I mean really? You expect people to buy into that BS? You are a person, with a brain, and with your own free will. If you make a change in your life, all credit goes to you for making that change.

            Yes, anyone that helps you along the way should get credit. But as has already been pointed out, over and over and over again, God doesn't interfere in anyone's life, ever. You have free will and what you do is up to you and he's not going to play a part in it. Therefore, when you make a change in your life, you get the credit, not some sadistic super being who has already promised not to interfere in your life.

            As for lives and deaths and trying to convert and deconvert people, Christians are the one's who going around trying to preach to others and convince them to convert, or deconvert from their current believes and then convert the christian beliefs. Quit blaming others for the exact reason your here. If you want to stimulate thoughts thats fine. You have a bad habit of doing nothing but preaching and trying to convince (i.e convert) people to your way of thinking. Pull the beam from your own eye. You can clearly see it after all.

            1. aguasilver profile image77
              aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              I will ignore most of your post, it is inconsequential.

              The above I will answer.

              We have free choice, rather than free will, free will is indicative that we can will a million dollars to appear and it will happen.

              Choice is just that, we all choose to obey or rebel against authority.

              The declaration of SELF is indicative as to why anyone rejects Christ as the authority over their life.

              SELF - EGO - PRIDE

              All killer faults in anyone.

              The 'sadistic super being' you refer to also stated:

              Jeremiah 33 2:3
              Thus saith the LORD the maker thereof, the LORD that formed it, to establish it; the LORD is his name; Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

              Psalm 25:9
              The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

              Psalm 48:14
              For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

              John 16:13
              Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.


              God takes more than a passing interest in our lives and guides those who chose to surrender their SELF to His WILL.

              Not surprisingly anyone who is SELF orientated and wants to claim the glory for themselves will NOT be guided by God, He will continue to protect them to whatever degree possible from the enemy who seeks to destroy them, but the authorities those people give to the enemy are legal rights that God will not over rule UNLESS the person chooses to ask God to change their lives.

              At which point the enemy loses his power and control.



              But I am here to preach, never said I was not, and I actually don't care whether you dislike it or not, no reason why I should.

              I 'preach' to the converted and anyone who is interested in reading my posts.

              I don't force you to read what I write, HubPages is an open platform for discussion, when I see something that I am not interested in, I just track past it, you have the same option.

              If you are here only to take part in a mass debating society, so well and good, but I view this place as a mission field, a place where believers can fellowship and encourage each other, and a place where the deception of the enemy can be opposed and exposed, and where Christ can be presented loud and clearly, which is presumably why the resident gaggle of atheists attack so vehemently and show their indecision about what they believe.

              If you guys did not keep feeding me your lines, my life would be more difficult! so thanks for the attacks, they really help keep the focus on Christ.

              http://www.buffaloridgebaptist.org/images/button_100sure.jpg

              I AM

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                It is a public forum and not a mission field, hence you're breaking the TOS by acting upon your views.



                Read above what you just said about your views of this public forum. It is YOU who is attacking based on what YOU said.

                1. aguasilver profile image77
                  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  TM, to a believer the whole of life is a mission field, my hubs are mostly Christian hubs written to answer questions about faith, or to expose deceptions of the world, they are mission statements, it's an expression... get over it.

                  http://www.buffaloridgebaptist.org/images/button_100sure.jpg

                  I AM

                  1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    I could care less about your ridiculous hubs, but this is public forum, not a mission field. Get over it.

                    1. aguasilver profile image77
                      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Public Forum... yes, that's right PUBLIC, open to anyone, you push your beliefs and use it to make inane remarks, I push mine, that's why it's a public forum, if HubPages decide to make it members only, separate 'religion' from 'philosophy' and only want to allow religious debate, in the religious forum, that's fine by me, I will stay out of the philosophy forum with any Christian content, and never visit the atheists forums (do they exist?).

              2. EinderDarkwolf profile image62
                EinderDarkwolfposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Ah yes, it's always inconsequential when your confronted with something you really don't understand.

                Ahh, so we don't have free will? Which means my will is controlled by an outside force in which I have no freedom to do anything? I don't think you quite grasp what it means to have free will. Perhaps we need to clearly define it for you.

                Free Will:
                  Free will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints.

                  “Free Will” is a philosophical term of art for a particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives.

                  Free Will is the ability to do what you want, and pursue your interests


                The declaration of Self you say? Well, where is this superbeing who is controlling every act and thought of my being? Certainly when I'm just thinking and not making a choice he has to be there according to you. Yet and still, there is no evidence of that. There is no super being trying to supress my thoughts. I think perhaps your just wishing to be better than humans.

                I do admit though that Ego and Pride are killer faults. But your god has a very big ego that you continue to stroke for him, and I bet he takes a lot of pride in that! Not to mention you stroking your own ego by trying to assert your self as an "authority" and your pride in speaking of your beliefs while you try to push them on other people.

                Jeremiah 33 is a lie, I should know because I've already been down that path. He never answered and never showed me mighty things. After years of waiting, I said screw it and moved on.

                As for Psalms quotes, well we really aren't talking about Songs so I don't see what relevance they hold. But if you really want to go down that route, neither one of this have any application as to whether or not he's a sadistic super being.

                This quote from John is way out of the league on anything, unless your suggesting God is not a Supreme but is only a minor spirit. In which case I think you just proved that.

                IF your god takes more than a passing interest in our lives, then why are you only able to find 4 quotes after 24 hrs of searching that even come close to saying so?

                Glory? Who was talking about glory? Since you like to insert stuff, how about we just call it what it is, credit. I don't give your god credit for my actions, because I'm the one taking them, not him and not anyone else.

                What enemy are you refferring to?



                Well if your here to preach, then why are taking an affront when someone else seems to be doing the same? That's just pure pride in yourself.

                You couldn't force me if you wanted to, and your completely self deluded if you think you could. I agree that Hubpages is an open platform for discussion. I do skip over many things. A great many things actually.

                It's not indecision that atheists are attacking. Atheists are here attacking the fact that your not DISCUSSING anything. Instead your preaching and trying to stroke your own ego while you do it, Einstein. Of course, I don't expect you to understand this because apparently to you, a discussion and preaching are the same exact thing.

                I'm sure they do help you keep stroking your god's ego. If you want to view those who are trying to discuss as attacking, so be it, that's your choice. If you quit preaching and started discussing though, I think you might see that they aren't attacks at all.

                Am I 100% sure? Without a doubt.

      10. Hokey profile image61
        Hokeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        LSD most likely. You could see god too!

      11. Jyle Dupuis profile image77
        Jyle Dupuisposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I don't believe that any Atheist pretends to know anything for certainty. Historians develop new theories to explain the past. Nothing in the past changes, what happened, happened, just our understanding changes with new evidence. Despite  relating more with Atheism I don't know anything for certain, I don't think we ever could. So if you are asking how to convert an Atheist to Christianity I would say don't bother. They have lost faith because of various reasons. You will never convince someone to change beliefs with debate, only through life experiences.

        1. Claire Evans profile image69
          Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          There are many people who say they know for a fact God doesn't exist but I obviously do not believe it nor you.  I do not make it my life's mission to convert atheists.  We are here to testify to the truth.  It's called planting a seed.  Then it is up to the non-believer whether he lets that seed grow. And you sure are right about only life experiences converting people.

          1. Mark Knowles profile image59
            Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Well you have certainly planted the seed that I am correct to reject your ridiculous religion.

            No one says they know for a fact that your god does not exist. Best I can go with is "infinitely improbable and logically impossible."

            That is typical though. Self professed Christians such as yourself are so dishonest, they put people off instead of converting them.

            1. aguasilver profile image77
              aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Well it's a start Mark, not that promising but at least a start, you were adamant He did not exist in the past...

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I don't believe it exists. I cannot say for a fact it does not. Nor have I ever said that. I 100% spit on the idea of your Holy Spirit and 100% reject your hate-mongering garbage.

                Still telling porkies huh? Do you burn for that or do you get to say the majik words after you are dead?

                So - no room for error on your part? No possibility that you are wrong?

                1. Claire Evans profile image69
                  Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  What is our idea of the Holy Spirit?

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Majik!

                2. aguasilver profile image77
                  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Mark, of course their is always the possibility that believers are wrong, it's possible that throughout recorded history some alien intelligence has been producing similar or even identical hallucinations in billions of people simultaneously and controlling our minds so that we all see the same things (although obviously some will interpret those things differently)and making us worship some created image of God that they have produced...

                  Just not very probable.

                  Mark: "Nor have I ever said that. I 100% spit on the idea of your Holy Spirit and 100% reject your hate-mongering garbage. "

                  Good, I seem to remember.... but we were both angry at the time!

                  Anyhow, good progress, if we can ever get to dismiss the alpha male machismo we both demonstrate, we could have some interesting chats.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    At least you admit the possibility that you are wrong. Good for you - that is a start.

                    Now I think about it - that is actually a major step. Basically you just agreed that your god is not very probable. wink

                    Seeing as aliens have exactly the same probability as your god.

                    Good for you. The seed is planted. Maybe one day you will be able to think rationally. Who knows? Plenty of other religionists have deconverted before.

                    I am sure we could have some interesting chats. I doubt very much you would speak to me the way you tend to do online to my face. wink

                    1. vector7 profile image60
                      vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Why? Are you a big scary man Mark?

                      I would.

                      http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-cool14.gif

                  2. Claire Evans profile image69
                    Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Believers could be wrong about what?

                    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      About their beliefs.

                  3. EinderDarkwolf profile image62
                    EinderDarkwolfposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    It's also possible that it's a universal consciousness type effect. Something you opt into in order to share the delusion of another. As energy goes on forever, without end, and thoughts are energy, it's perfectly possible.

                    1. aguasilver profile image77
                      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      But as I said; Just not very probable.

            2. Claire Evans profile image69
              Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Well you have certainly planted the seed that I am correct to reject your ridiculous religion.

              No one says they know for a fact that your god does not exist. Best I can go with is "infinitely improbable and logically impossible."

              That is typical though. Self professed Christians such as yourself are so dishonest, they put people off instead of converting them.

              I've seen someone state it as a fact and others said it depended on what the definition of God was.  Unbeknownst to you, Christians have planted a seed.  You wouldn't bother addressing the same people over and over again who have this ridiculous religion knowing full well that you cannot change them.  No one is going to want to beat a dead horse for very long.


              http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6509576_f248.jpg

              Why do this?

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Odd - you are the one here evangelizing and I am the one beating the dead horse?

                No - you have not planted anything worthwhile. At best you are helping to convince bystanders that you are mentally ill.

                LOL at such a high opinion you have of yourself. Unbeknownst to you - you are pushing people away from your religion.

                Keep at it. Maybe one day we will have dropped such superstition completely from our society.

                You seem to be here to bolster your own faith actually. As you keep claiming you have proof. Surely proof defeats faith in that case?

                Unbeknownst to you - you are proving your god does not exist. Guess you don't know yourself very well at all.

                1. Claire Evans profile image69
                  Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, aren't you? What do you hope to achieve here? What are you achieving here?  A person who truly believes someone is mentally ill will not bother to indulge in conversation with them.  That really is beating a dead horse.  If someone said they worship pink ponies, I would move on rather creeped out.



                  How so? What should I say to make Christianity is worthwhile?  I do not have a high opinion of myself.  You don't have to have special powers to know the Holy Spirit.  It is not of my own merits.



                  Well, maybe you'd prefer Lucifer-worship.  You won't have a choice under the New World Order.



                  I think I've given this analogy before to you.  A child doesn't doubt the existence of his/her parents but has faith in them that they have their best interests at heart.



                  Okay, well, cheers.  We don't have anything more to say to each other.

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Guess not. Sorry you are incapable of understanding why your beliefs are damaging and detrimental to our society. Or why anyone would want them removed from our society. Perhaps if you understood yourself a little better?

                    You can give all the false analogies you care to. How funny that real people are the same as your majikal god. lol lol

                    How funny that all parents have the best interests of their child at heart. Guess you don't get out much either.

                    Keep thrashing the dead horse. Unbeknownst to you, I have planted a seed of reason - maybe it will come to fruition, although - in the words of Darth Vader, "the denial is strong in this one."

                    1. profile image0
                      jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      What the psychiatrist couldn't achieve with his treatment, your are going to with a few words? I don't think so.

          2. profile image0
            jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You are here to spread your delusion so that you won't feel abnormal.

        2. profile image0
          Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Some atheists pretend to know, with absolute certainty, that God doesn't exist. When I became an atheist about 31 years ago, there were more of that type of atheist. I suppose that I was that type of atheist for about 15 minutes.

          As for changing beliefs through debate, it happens rarely, but it does happen. Twenty-five ago, I talked a Baptist minister out of his faith, and I've been responsible for a few deconversions since then, the last as recently as 2011. However, it must be said that all of the deconverted were scrupulous followers of Shakespeare's maxim, "to thine own self be true," regardless of where it led.

          The Baptist minister later decided that I was Satan -- the literal Satan -- and converted back. Let me add that it isn't my mission to deconvert anybody; I explain my beliefs, and respond to the inevitable objections with as much dispassion as I can. Whatever happens as a consequence of our dialogue is never planned.

      12. The0NatureBoy profile image58
        The0NatureBoyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        We need to know that earth is a place of duality where opposite attracts. The attraction creates the middle path of the Buddha and the straight way with the narrow gate of Christ when they come together. They are like the hours between first light to sunrise and sunset to dark, a thin and straight line around the earth. Atheist is one half of what is required to understand life and religion the other, so without exploring both one will never cross the middle path to recognize they are different sides of the subject.

        We are conditioned to accept half of earth's opposites and rejects the other therefore Atheists attack Christians and vise versa.

        1. The0NatureBoy profile image58
          The0NatureBoyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          We need to know that earth is a place of duality where opposite attracts. The attraction creates the middle path of the Buddha and the straight way with the narrow gate of Christ when they come together. They are like the hours between first light to sunrise and sunset to dark, a thin and straight line around the earth. Atheist is one half of what is required to understand life and religion the other, so without exploring both one will never cross the middle path to recognize they are different sides of the subject.

          We are conditioned to accept half of earth's opposites and rejects the other therefore Atheists convert to Christianity and vise versa in order to experience both sides hoping to find their purposes.

    5. aka-dj profile image78
      aka-djposted 13 years ago

      Let one tell you himself!
      http://youtu.be/TbA_kps9NCY

      1. artblack01 profile image60
        artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I knew there was something wrong when he started talking about "where did out sense of right and wrong come from" it came from us being social animals. We aren't above tre animals in this sense. His supposed knowledge is in chemistry and he has a supposed degree in this field and has done supposed research into systic fibrosis... There is something fishy about him and the way he talks about faith not to mention his home origin... I'd say more but I like to debunk things... I am finding all sorts of funny business here. Having studied psychology and having written papers on how to spot people who are... Not being 100% honest... I'll just say this. I don't think he was an atheist who found his arguments flimsy.... That made me laugh.

        1. aka-dj profile image78
          aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Well, I suppose you can try and debunk this guy, or the next one. Or even the one after that, but, eventually a picture will start to emerge.
          A bit like the near death experience research. You may debunk every one on it's own merits (or lack of), but then you are still left with questions about death, and what's "beyond the veil".
          At the end of the day, NONE of these examples may convince you personally, but at least it makes you think, (I hope)!

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Funny thing is these nde 'coincidences' just keep happening, and happening, and happening, and.. well you get the point.

            It almost seems like. . .  wait a minute...



            smile

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Funny thing is they don't happen to everyone and the religious ones differ on what religion you were brought up as.... Isn't that funny? For instance, I know a guy who had an nde about Buddha... Hmmmm, or a Hindu about Kali... He said that was scary if you know who Kali is.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                lol

                I guess they don't happen to everyone...

                Most of them just DIE.

                lol

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Wow, good to see how believers can make fun of death and such, that's another good reason not to be a believer, they all seem to be insensitive assholes.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Hmm.

                    Just be glad I'm man enough to overlook childishness and ignore the report button.

                    You sweet thing you. lol

                    smile

          2. artblack01 profile image60
            artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I've already had a near death experience myself so I don't need to debunk any of them.
            Sometimes you dream about things when you are totally unconscious and if it happens to be a religious dream when you almost die then you might just turn to religion without questioning it. Fortunately, my nde wasn't religious in the least.

    6. profile image0
      Matthew Kirkposted 13 years ago

      Research I have done suggest that it is usually in relation to difficulties in ones life and often a strange experience (that though explainable) makes them adamant that god had spoken to them or something similar... i.e. light at the end of the tunnel.

      It nearly never happens with proper atheists though, usually to agnostics or people who are simply un-religious. For the simply un-religious, sudden conversion to the more extreme forms of Chritianity and other religions usually comes at a turning point in the individuals life: i.e. they are homeless, or an alcoholic or drug abuser or are involved in prostitution etc... They use the communities and the strict rules these groups maintain to regulate their life; it can be positive for these people - however it is usually the community support they recieve and the promise of a fresh start (confession of sins etc) that is the real catalyst for the people I describe above - not god.

      1. aguasilver profile image77
        aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        ...and to a degree I support your theory, I have seen many people come to faith from adversity or due to bad life choices that Christ has dealt with for them, but only to a degree.

        From experience of being around folk in rehab (not as a patient) we see many who get 'fixed up' (bad use of words, but you know what I mean) and get clean from their problems, and yes, the collective strength of the people praying with and for them does work to help get them straight.

        But those who stay straight are the ones who truly find faith and trust in Christ,  many fall by the wayside because they are still unprepared to totally surrender their will to His, and that is also covered in scripture:

        Matthew 13:6-8
        King James Version (KJV)

        And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

        And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

        But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.


        I have seen evidence of all those points, especially the last one, because those who come to Christ from personal adversity and fall 'into good ground' really do bear fruit, for there is no better counsellor than one who has been to hell already and come back.

        In reality God will use whatever you give Him to get your attention, He is ever there watching our lives, and ready to step in when WE ask Him to do so.

        Equally, I have seen many believers who were seriously damaged by the world (our enemy) in what I see as an attempt to kill them or stop them coming to faith.

        The enemy can often 'see' who will be liable to be of use to God, and will seek to stop them fulfilling their God given role.

        Sometimes the enemy uses drugs to try and stop them, sometimes sex, other times they will simply be made to feel so very intelligent, and often sheer wealth is used to disable a potential believer.

        We live in a deceptive world, and anything that will stop a person from fulfilling their destiny will be used by the enemy to disrupt lives and change futures, when that future looks set to lead to God.

        The enemy owns us UNTIL we reject his control over us and elect to serve God instead, only then does the enemy lose his grip on our lives.

      2. Claire Evans profile image69
        Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        A "proper" atheist had a NDE and converted to Christianity after experiencing hell.  He said it is easy to be an atheist when your life is peachy.  You have no need for God.  Who inspires all good? The Holy Spirit and so the community would have responded to Him and helped the stricken. 

        Sometimes people don't have to be told.  They suddenly have an epiphany.

        1. artblack01 profile image60
          artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I find all these stories condescending. Makes me wonder why I didn't dream of heaven or hell when I had my near death experience, boo hoo. Guess it was because I am secure in my belief and my hopes and fears aren't based on my culture or the fantasy of the religion my family true to bring me up in.

          1. Claire Evans profile image69
            Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You had a near death experience? I think the atheists who get these NDEs are the ones God knows will convert because of it.  It's like Paul.  Even though he persecuted the Christians, God could see his potential.

            This particular man who had the NDE  in the example was a drunkard and womanizer and was yearning for peace.  His NDE gave him that peace.

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Sorry I find it a suspect story. I don't believe the man was an atheist. It's similar to that story you repeated earlier about another famous atheist and him believing in aliens.  It just makes Christians look gullible, you'll believe anything another member of your group says that brings a positive image to your religion, even if it's a total provable lie.

              1. Claire Evans profile image69
                Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I didn't say Dawkins believed in aliens.  I said he said it is possible that aliens seeded the earth.

                Take a look at the testimony of this atheist who had the NDE for yourself:

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3adbayvKWA

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Testimony and reality are two different things, sorry to tell you people lie.  Christians included....  probably more than most since they have more to lose according to their irrational fear of damnation.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Again???

                    Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit - Denial - Discredit....

                    Airtight aint it?

                    lol

                    1. artblack01 profile image60
                      artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      I deny what has no evidence for it's existence, period.  If you have evidence for ANYTHING you believe, I'm open to hearing about it.

              2. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Dawkins very publically entertains the aliens theory...

                1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Just as he publicly entertains a whole lot of ideas and concepts, so what?

                  1. artblack01 profile image60
                    artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    I just love how seriously they take "entertaining" an idea.

                    1. vector7 profile image60
                      vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Just stating is all buddy.

                      Drama, drama, drama...

                      lol

    7. profile image0
      Emile Rposted 13 years ago

      People need others. Most people I know, who have converted to religion, have suffered some trauma and they are emotionally fragile. Religion can afford them healing and helps them believe that there is a method behind the madness life can appear to be, at times.

      1. aguasilver profile image77
        aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Seems reasonable, after all if you finally find that running your own life has failed miserably, I guess allowing God to have a go seems like a good idea, and when life gets better, well most believers are sensible enough to know that if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

        I would never wish to return to being who I was before I came to faith, and believe me the guy that I was had some fun, lots of fun actually, before I came to see that my life was actually empty of something.

        Guess I found that God shaped hole was not being filled by all the stuff I was doing to have fun.

        1. profile image0
          Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Good point. People who can't balance their own lives and do what is in their best interest emotionally do need help. Religion serves a purpose for those who lack the ability to understand the long and short term ramifications of bad choices.

          1. profile image0
            jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Quite right. Religion is the crutches of the unsound mind. Or as Marx put it, religion is the opiate of masses.

          2. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            What are the ramifications of bad choices long term?

            You know, after death puts it's cards out on the table and asks if your hand is higher?

            He usually doesn't ask, just starts raking in his chips off the river...

            So?

            smile

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              The ramifications of bad choices are not just long term, they are immediate...  someone gets hurt either directly or indirectly even if it's not you, but like a butterfly effect everything effects everything else...  you may not see it right away, hell, you might even be an insensitive ass clown and not care about anyone but yourself and what you believe, but you will be unknowingly burning bridges with people who could be friends....

      2. profile image0
        Matthew Kirkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Exactly Emile R - I am an atheist and KNOW there is no god, but can see the benefit that SOME religious communities can offer.

        1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
          Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Wow, how do you know there is no god? I am intrigued.

          1. profile image0
            jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Isn't it quite simple? Just define god.

            1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
              Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Hang on a minute, he didnt say that he knows the christian god doesnt exist. He said he knows that NO god exists.

              You cant disprove that by defining ONE god.

              1. profile image0
                jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                We can, just try defining any god.
                Unless you equate god with universe there is no god, which is not religious(any) people mean by god.
                Here god:The creator and ruler of the universe
                and source of all moral authority; the Supreme
                Being.
                There is no creator
                There is no absolute morality for a moral authority.
                Supreme being so far is human.

                1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  How do you know nothing created this universe? How do you know that it is not possible to create a universe within this universe?

                  Maybe a scientist will discover that it is possible to create a universe within certain parameters. That scientist would qualify as god to the universe he created.

                  To claim knowledge of such a thing is ridiculous since it cannot be proven, or tested, or demonstrated

                  1. profile image0
                    jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    What we call universe is the matter and space all around us, including us.
                    Space is nothing, and nothing doesn't need creation.
                    God has to exist before he can create, so matter too exist always.
                    Besides nobody, not even god can make something from nothing.
                    So no creator, then what happen to god?

                    1. aguasilver profile image77
                      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      You speak of more knowledge than any scientist ever claimed to have, it must be great to KNOW all that you know, and be more certain than any scientist ever managed to be.

                    2. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                      Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      There are theories about something from nothing. Have you seen the lecture given by lawrence krauss? Very interesting.

                2. mischeviousme profile image61
                  mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  The belief in a supreme being, stems from the desire to define and understand the root of intelligence.

                3. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I just realised that "God" is not defined as creator of the universe.

                  I always thought it was.

                  Strange.

            2. aguasilver profile image77
              aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              God is the entity you will stand before some day.

              1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                That's an assertion of knowledge. You are guilty of hypocracy I believe.

                1. aguasilver profile image77
                  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  No, Jomine asked for people to define of God, that is MY definition of God, based upon scripture, and is far less assertive of knowledge unknown to humanity than his assertions.

                  Billions of people hold this assertion to be true, whereas he made assertions that even the top scientists would blanch at making, and few would agree with in any case.

                  It seems to me that atheists do scientists a disfavour by making assertions that scientists would never make.

                  1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
                    Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Starting a post with "No" is what all annoying trolls do. It is a bad habit that immediately annoys the recipient.

                    You claimed that someone will stand before god. That is an assertion of knowledge which you accused someone else of and that is why I accused you of hypocracy.

                    1. vector7 profile image60
                      vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      No, a troll is much more annoying.

                      smile

              2. profile image0
                jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I stand before the dog in my profile picture most days, but it never told me it is god!

                1. aguasilver profile image77
                  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Maybe you are unwilling to communicate with your dog, mine has very good  'conversations' with us, though of course you would not believe in him, as you do not understand his language, nor it seems have any inclination to widen your vocabulary or understanding.

                  Viewing the world in black and white may suit you fine, but when there are 256 shades of grey to consider, before you even get to the 16 million hues between black and white that constitute colour, I think yours is a limited world-view, but that's just my opinion.

                  http://good-wallpapers.com/pictures/2029/rainbow_boy.jpg

                  Even a child can understand that black and white is not all there is....

                  1. profile image0
                    jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Just like your god, which is your opinion only.

                    1. aguasilver profile image77
                      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Oh come on, surely you can do better than a playground retort "na na de nan na"

                      Express yourself in full colour, black and white is sooo constricting! smile

                    2. aka-dj profile image78
                      aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      That can't be right?
                      It's not just his opinion, I share his opinion! hmm

          2. profile image0
            Matthew Kirkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            @ Jesus was a hippy - this is how I kow god doesn't exist:

            http://matthewkirk.hubpages.com/hub/Why … -not-exist

            1. Jesus was a hippy profile image59
              Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              The bible god is not every single god that was ever thought of and disproving the bible does not disprove the possibility of any other god that you never heard of existing.

              Your knowledge of such a proposition is non-existant.

        2. Claire Evans profile image69
          Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          What is your definition of God?

      3. Claire Evans profile image69
        Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        This is one of the reasons.  Religion gives people a sense of "belonging", which is human nature to want.  Sometimes in this frail state the religious could use this as an opportunity to "save" someone, thinking it gains favour with God, and drill it in there heads Jesus is the son of God.  The emotional then start to believe it.  That's nothing more than brain-washing.

    8. Eric Newland profile image62
      Eric Newlandposted 13 years ago

      The Pilgrim's Regress by CS Lewis would be good reading if you want to see an allegorical memoir of one such conversion.

      1. profile image0
        jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        CS Lewis. Isn't he the fellow who copied bible as 'the chronicles of narnia'?

        1. profile image0
          Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          No, but the "Chronicles of Narnia" did contain Christian allegory.

        2. Elijah7 profile image60
          Elijah7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          jomine - you are ABSOLUTELY EVIL - lost, confused, desolate, totally OWNED by satan - YET, still Loved by God and by JESUS and by me.

          In the short time i have been in these forums, you are ALMOST top of the list of the saddest of SINNERS, desperately trying to convince themselves that God, JESUS and The Bible are false.

          In reality, EVERYTHING you write is FALSE.

          God, JESUS and The Holy Scriptures are NOT what YOU have been DELUDED into disbelieving.

          In REALITY, the ABSOLUTE OPPOSITE is The Truth.

          How bad was that HIT ON THE HEAD when you were young?

          Suggest you GET a Holy Bible. BASH IT ON YOUR HEAD A FEW TIMES to undo the reverse polarity, AND THEN READ THE WHOLE BOOK, cover to cover.

          ONCE you have done this THOROUGHLY, come back and try posting your INANE DRIVEL again.

          Guarantee you will BE BORN AGAIN, long before you reach The Book of Revelation.

          GOD and His Holy Son LOVE people like you.

          You are HEREBY TARGETTED for Imminent Salvation.

          WE "The Church" have NOW added you to the Prayer List.

          We WILL appoint Prayer Warriors around the globe to PRAY SPECIFICALLY for your very lost soul, to CONFOUND The Devil that currently owns you.

          Get ready for AN AWESOME Experience, the like of which you could NEVER imagine.

          We will be Praying for you by the name JOMINE, that represents your dark soul.

          You are hereby EARMARKED for Heaven.

          JESUS HAS NEVER FAILED TO ANSWER MY PRAYERS.

          This is The BEST NEWS you could EVER Read - Amen & Amen

          1 Timothy 1 : 12 - 17
          "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."


          http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6479340_f248.jpg

          1. profile image0
            Matthew Kirkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Your getting good at winding this guy up aren't you jomine

          2. aguasilver profile image77
            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Amen, and amen...

            1. A Thousand Words profile image68
              A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              LoL, you are also agreeing with a man who claims that he is THE "Elijah." Did you know that?

              1. aguasilver profile image77
                aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I'm agreeing with his assessment of Jomine, not whatever else he believes. smile

                I have never visited his pages.... maybe I will now!

                1. vector7 profile image60
                  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  lol

          3. Josak profile image61
            Josakposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I read the bible cover to cover... That sealed by atheism, a long story of a sadistic god punishing people endlessly for minor offenses and creating a creed responsible for the murders of tens of millions, then a guy claiming to be the son of the a fore mentioned god trying to run a PR campaign that god was not really that bad.

          4. profile image0
            Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            If Jomine is born again before reaching the Book of Revelation, I guarantee that I will buy you a bag of DORITOS® JACKED™ Enchilada Supreme Flavored Tortilla Chips. Oh, and I guarantee that my guarantee is worth more than your guarantee.

            Amen, and amen...

          5. artblack01 profile image60
            artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Just proves that there are many Christians who are just mentally unbalanced and have completely lost touch with reality.

            Thankfully I am an atheist because of people like you.

            Thank you Elijah7, for making people like me happen.

            1. A Thousand Words profile image68
              A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              I'm not sure that a crazy man should make you an Atheist.

              But this guys is really out of this world, though he might find that as a compliment.

              1. artblack01 profile image60
                artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                People like him make you question the validity of such a belief system, that's how.
                And if that's a compliment then he really is out of this world and should be committed as being a danger to himself.

          6. profile image0
            jomineposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Are you a Christian? Even Christians can never come up with such garbage, only psychotics can.

    9. artblack01 profile image60
      artblack01posted 13 years ago

      Atheist to Christian... (I couldn't help but laugh at this thread, the comments, especially from the believers here were hilarious) now if the person is an atheist because he doesn't believe in God for any actual reason...  meaning he doesn't have an alternate belief, then he could easily be converted to ANY belief system, because he lacks the knowledge of any particular belief system to make a determination.  I don't believe this person is an actual atheist even if that is what he claims.  An actual atheist is one who has come to the conclusion that God does not exist based on evidence.... there are groups of people who have tried to make a better distiction from those that are atheist because they don't believe based on knowledge and those based on emotion or lack of knowledge... this group was refered to as Brights...  someone whose atheism was based on science, reason and evidence. 

      When ever someone says they were once an atheist and they became a Christian or any other religious person, my first reaction is to laugh (but I with hold my laughter so as not to offend), I then ask them what made them an atheist?  They have no actual reason, so I argue that this person wasn't an atheist but an agnostic.... 
      Basically there isn't a clear enough distinction between atheist - a nonbeliever who doesn't believe because of actual knowledge/evidence that contradicts the existence or possible existence of a deity; atheist - nonbeliever who doesn't believe because he doesn't think a god can exist based on how he feels about his world view; and agnostic, person who doesn't know whether or not a god exists.

      1. A Thousand Words profile image68
        A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        More or less well put.

        But, I would have to say that there are Atheists who even knew and understood why they were Atheist and were still convinced because of other aspects in their psyche in the like, that made Christianity a possibility for them. That's like when Christians say that anyone who became a non-beleiver, were never believers in the first place. I can ASSURE you, that when I was a Christian, no one questioned whether or not I was a faithful follower of God. I made mistakes, but I was devoted and convinced that I "knew" God and He me. There's more to the conversion process than you think. Sometimes intellectual knowledge can be put on the back burner if there is emotional instability, amongst other possible factors.

        1. artblack01 profile image60
          artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I will give emotional instability as a reason a person of logic and reason would turn to a position of illogical ridiculous fantasy. However I have never heard of any other possible way nor have I heard of any actual atheist other than people who claim to have been atheist but were not for the reasons I have stated.

          1. profile image0
            Matthew Kirkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Exactly - thats why so many ex alcoholics, drug abusers, criminals... end up reforming through christianity.

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              People who reform through Christianity do so because Christians make it a point to sponsor such groups that reform such people and push out anyone else that is not a Christian who wants to help (personal experience).  There are plenty of groups you can look up that are secular that do the same thing and have a similar success rate.... if not better.
              Being converted to Christianity has more to do with the group doing the converting rather than the nut jobs being converted.

              1. profile image0
                Matthew Kirkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Probably right, hadn't thought of that!

              2. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                The Bible converts many on it's own through God's power as testified by those who read it and said things make much more sense.

                George Muller wasn't a product of your description, and there are tons of cases exactly like his.

                Walking around calling people nut jobs does nothing but prove the Bible's claims regarding humanity and it's state.

                You are doing exactly what you accuse Christians of.

                It's simple and works in any social setting. You call the other group nut jobs, state they are pushy or such this and that, and make them look so horrible by your assertions that people run from the very idea for fear of being treated the same by you.

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Wow you really like to take statements out of context, quote mine and read into things and jump to conclusions and assume. I'm glad you are religious and not a scientist.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Point out my assumption.

                    I'll clarify if need be.

                    1. artblack01 profile image60
                      artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      I have read the bible many times, with much seriousness and no expectations except some sort of wisdom about life and my place in the scheme of things. Eventually I would question everything. I decided that the only way to know what was true was to find evidence, because everything that is true has evidence for it being true. Faith is the blind following of that which is uncertain, the stupid affirmation of the absurd. I lost my faith when reality did not match my religious beliefs and I shed my religious beliefs.  God has no power unless you give it to him, he is like your imaginary friend, he controls as much as you give. It's actually a typical psychological phenomenon. Nuts, each person has something nutty about them. We let our emotions dictate what we see as true, we believe what we want despite the evidence.

      2. Claire Evans profile image69
        Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         

        They have been atheists who have deduced God didn't exist because of a lack of evidence and have converted.  However, it takes some spiritual awakening.  In the case of C.S Lewis, he found the evidence for Jesus so strong he converted to Christianity.



        Perhaps they were atheist because they had no evidence but found spiritual evidence you don't know of.



        What evidence contradicts the existence of a deity?

        1. artblack01 profile image60
          artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          The entirety of the physics of the universe and the logic that sets it in motion.

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            THAT is ridiculous.

            It takes thought and effort of humanity's part to follow laws.

            They MUST use their intelligence.

            The dumber the person, less responsibility [rule following] we require of them.

            Now following rules requires no input from intelligence?

            The very FACT that there ARE Laws that EVERYTHING is REQUIRED to follow and DOES SO, is evidence in favor of intelligence.. NOT vice versa.

            The traits are those consistent with intelligence, rather than chaos or stupidity. Therefore the conclusion, logically, is that the indications reveal intelligent actions, which indicate intelligence.

            People that act intelligent we call intelligent.

            People that act unintelligent we call chaotic.

            Things that require intelligent people to create them are not brought about by chaos or studipity.

            Organized thoughts [opposite of chaotic thoughts] are traits of an intelligent person..

            That means you can deduce that intelligence played a role somewhere in it's coming into being by the fact that intelligent actions are taking place.

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              That is a lot of assumption. It does take effort to follow laws, but why do you think that is? Why do people break laws? Necessity. Take for example that you are poor and starving and must feed a family, chances are you will break the law by stealing, for the sake of survival. Desperate people do desperate things. Some laws aren't common sense but don't actually match any moral tradition but are set up to aid in the functioning of an ever increasing complex society, like traffic laws, business laws, and other interpersonal relations that aren't obvious.  Intelligent things that are created by people are indeed products of humans, nature follows patterns that require no such intelligence to function. To assign an intelligence to anything with order is to also say that nothing can function without a creator including said creator, by this absurd statement you must also conclude that the creator came from an infinite line of creators. In order to even assume that such a creator exists by this logic one must take this into account but if one wishes to state that this creator is in fact real and also the first cause one must have evidence for the existence of such a creator otherwise this person is merely guessing and has no basis for such an argument in either case. God of the gaps.

              1. aguasilver profile image77
                aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Having trouble understanding that God is not and could not be governed by the same rules we live under huh!

                In a nutshell, because some folk cannot understand God and fit Him into a neat box they can look at and observe, they believe He cannot exist, whereas other folk communicate with God, and perhaps more essentially are communicated back to, from God, and therefore cannot deny He does exist.

                I'm sorry if you cannot fit God into your box, but that is no reason to keep trying to convince those who live outside the box that He is not real, you may as well try to nail water to a tree.

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  No, just having trouble why any intelligent person would believe such idiotic bullshit.  Over all the different religions they are ones measurably older still believed, Christianity is nothing special, neither is the Christian God.  You can't fit into "a box" define that which is different in everyone's minds because he is the product of their minds.  All your defense of your God is to defend that which cannot be proven to exist.  You can believe what you like, I will believe what is true.

                  1. aguasilver profile image77
                    aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Ahh the supremely confident boast of a humble man.

                    You KNOW what is true?

                    Or you know what is supposedly true until the evidence proves contrary?

                    Science refused to accept that washing a doctors hands had ANY relationship to spreading disease in childbirth.

                    Is that the truth you know?

                    As you like Wikipedia, here is the relevant passage:

                    Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis(July 1, 1818 – August 13, 1865) was a Hungarian physician now known as an early pioneer of antiseptic procedures. Described as the "savior of mothers",[1] Semmelweis discovered that the incidence of puerperal fever could be drastically cut by the use of hand disinfection in obstetrical clinics.[1] Puerperal fever was common in mid-19th-century hospitals and often fatal, with mortality at 10%–35%. Semmelweis postulated the theory of washing with chlorinated lime solutions in 1847[1] while working in Vienna General Hospital's First Obstetrical Clinic, where doctors' wards had three times the mortality of midwives' wards. He published a book of his findings in Etiology, Concept and Prophylaxis of Childbed Fever.

                    Despite various publications of results where hand-washing reduced mortality to below 1%, Semmelweis's observations conflicted with the established scientific and medical opinions of the time and his ideas were rejected by the medical community. Some doctors were offended at the suggestion that they should wash their hands and Semmelweis could offer no acceptable scientific explanation for his findings. Semmelweis's practice earned widespread acceptance only years after his death, when Louis Pasteur confirmed the germ theory. In 1865, Semmelweis was committed to an asylum, where he died, ironically, of septicemia at age 47.

                    So much for accepted scientific proof being irrefutable and secure to believe in.

                    1. artblack01 profile image60
                      artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      You do realize how old these articles are and how laughable it is that you bring them up After how old they are?

              2. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Explain emf...

                It's highly sophisticated.

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes it is but explainable.

                2. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  You can look it up on Wikipedia or read about it at the library.... Hell, let me just copy it for you so you can read it since you are too damn lazy to do your own research on what is true or how stuff actually works:

                  An electromagnetic field (also EMF or EM field) is a physical field produced by moving electrically charged objects. It affects the behavior of charged objects in the vicinity of the field. The electromagnetic field extends indefinitely throughout space and describes the electromagnetic interaction. It is one of the four fundamental forces of nature (the others are gravitation, the weak interaction, and the strong interaction).

                  The field can be viewed as the combination of an electric field and a magnetic field. The electric field is produced by stationary charges, and the magnetic field by moving charges (currents); these two are often described as the sources of the field. The way in which charges and currents interact with the electromagnetic field is described by Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law.

                  From a classical perspective, the electromagnetic field can be regarded as a smooth, continuous field, propagated in a wavelike manner; whereas from the perspective of quantum field theory, the field is seen as quantized, being composed of individual particles.[citation needed]

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Where'd the "STRUCTURE" come from mastermind? lol

                    How do you miss my question?

                    I'll be sure to elaborate from here out.

                    smile

                    1. artblack01 profile image60
                      artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Obviously some imaginary being had to create it because only intelligent beings can make structures....
                      Sadly that is not the case.  A great elementary explanation for how things fall into patterns can be seen in this video:

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6NnCOs2 … 3469F501E1

          2. Claire Evans profile image69
            Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Explain more.

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Take a physics class I am not your teacher,

              you need to learn how to do research on these things yourself.  Or learn to ask more specific questions, like what vector 7 did on EMF

              I have a degree that qualifies me to teach you some but how much I teach you will depend on how much you pay me.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                emf is systematic..

                North always lines up in the same direction in a row of standard magnets. There is never a mistake made.

                This is 'awareness' of 'properties'...

                Her request was valid. You explained how it works. EVERYONE knows that.

                How it BECAME that way is the question......

                This should be obvious by now.

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  "How it BECAME that way is the question......" It's only a question to people who don't understand how electrons in atomic particles or static charges or electricity works.  Everyone else understands.

                  Sorry you dropped out of school.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Thats all controlled and involved with emf!

                    positive - negative never gave you a clue? [north south? - magnets generate electricity and vice versa?]

                    You never heard of energy converting?

                    C'mon man..


                    You sound so silly..

                    lol

                    1. artblack01 profile image60
                      artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      I never eluded to answering your lame question, hmmm, I sound silly, yet EMF is hard to explain?  Your words, not mine.

    10. Civil War Bob profile image60
      Civil War Bobposted 13 years ago

      Wow, nobody took a Calvinist's position: Jesus chose the atheist, not the other way around, and engineered the details of his life to bring him to faith...at just the perfect time in his life.  When Revelation 5:9 says there will be folks from "every nation, tribe and tongue" at the Throne in Heaven, atheists are one group included.

      1. A Thousand Words profile image68
        A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I think it's because not too many people are fan's of Calvinist beliefs, or at least not as many as there used to be.

        1. vector7 profile image60
          vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I think he means using un-biased logic, starting on one side of the fence and then going to the other to settle the perspectives and how they weigh up.

    11. janesix profile image60
      janesixposted 13 years ago

      I was an atheist for thirty years, until a life changing experience two years ago. During this experiece, i felt the presence of God(among other things).

      It took me most of the past two years of studying different religions, and im still not convinced i can ever know what really happened, or what the nature of god really is.the closest thing that matches my experience is certain aspects of Hinduism.i can also admit that it COULD have been a psychotic episode like the doctors say.but in my heart i dont think so.

      1. A Thousand Words profile image68
        A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        smile What a great anecdote.

      2. artblack01 profile image60
        artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Nice story, heard many like it before but... Let's just say I am skeptical due to experience.

        1. janesix profile image60
          janesixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Can you elaborate?

          1. artblack01 profile image60
            artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I was almost pronounced dead once.

            1. vector7 profile image60
              vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              And?

              smile

              1. artblack01 profile image60
                artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                What? Ask me something specific! I had a weird dream but I can tell you for sure it didn't involve anything biblical.

                1. vector7 profile image60
                  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  lol

                  She asked you to elaborate on your experience..

                  Almost dying and nothing happening unusual is not an experience relating to after life/God.. It is a lack of experience. [not saying that is what you said, but you didn't say anything.]

                  I actually laughed when I read your response..

                  janesix: can you elaborate?

                  art: i almost died...

                  lol

                  Sorry.. I just got this thought like.. "now that's elaboration.." lol

                  smile

                  1. artblack01 profile image60
                    artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Okay, I was riding on my scooter, I'm into old classic scooters an restore and ride them, I was hit by a car (drunk driver) I was clinically dead according to one of the doctors that spoke to me. I remember having a dream that I was riding some other kind of scooter and then getting off it and then deciding I should drive it anyway and then woke up to a large pain in my chest and doctors freakung out on me... The next thing I remember us having another dream about walking through a great big forest with lots of strange animals and feeling totally excited that I was chosen to study a new species of domestic wild tree. Then I woke up again in a hospital bed having been there for about 48 hours. Sometimes when some one asks you to elaborate in a conversation you really would like them to be specific or you won't waste your time... So I gave a quick hurried thoughtless answer to a thoughtless question.

                    1. aguasilver profile image77
                      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Which supports what the cardiologist reported;  -  something good happens when we taste death, and we are aware of it when come back.

                      As for the religious implications of that observation, that is for each individual to resolve, your first 'dream' was one that made you feel in a familiar circumstance, your second 'dream' was showing you that there was a whole 'new' existence to look forward to.

                      I like that you had been 'chosen to study' that begs the question, who chose you?

      3. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        When someone undergoes such experiences that could be concluded to be psychotic, or near death or any number of experiences in which one is not in control of their faculties, they certainly can't make any judgments of their condition or of what they've hallucinated, regardless of what they may feel in their hearts.

        Listen to the doctors.

        1. janesix profile image60
          janesixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I comply with medication and treatment.

          But. I know there is much more going on that is described as metaphysical or supernatural than concensus reality can explain.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            No, you don't, you just really want to believe you do.

            1. janesix profile image60
              janesixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Lol....you are SO stubborn.

              I used to be exacty like you.

              I honestly hope you never have to go through the hell of not knowing what is real. Or anyone else for that matter.

              1. A Troubled Man profile image60
                A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                So, I am stubborn because you hold irrational beliefs? How does that work?



                I seriously doubt that.

                1. janesix profile image60
                  janesixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  No, because you wont even consider that you might be wrong

                  1. artblack01 profile image60
                    artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    That is the point of evidence. How do you know what is real and what is imagined? What do you do if you schizophrenia and your brain can't figure it out itself... What do you do if you have waking dreams uncontrollably/day hallucinations at random?
                    What do you do if millions of people with hundreds of different prospectives on over 20 different religious and philosophical beliefs can't agree? Go to the evidence.

                  2. A Troubled Man profile image60
                    A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Sure, if you can show me where I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Can you?

                    1. janesix profile image60
                      janesixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Yes. I admit i could be wrong about many things.

          2. artblack01 profile image60
            artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Dreams can make you see and think all sorts of things, because in a dream ANYTHING can happen, especially images and events one wants to see more than anything.

    12. connorj profile image68
      connorjposted 13 years ago

      Perhaps you will find some wisdom by reading about C.S Lewis' conversion from temporary athiest to Christian (I dare you to read Mere C. by C.S. Lewis)... It is a good book to peruse... or perhaps God will indeed, speak to you in His own time... Perhaps you will take the time to read about the life of John (J.R.R.) Tolkien and his journey...

    13. profile image0
      scottcgruberposted 13 years ago

      Know what I find to be the most interesting coincidence about all these near-death experiences?

      The fact that none of these folks actually died.

      The fact that we define death as cardiac arrest or loss of brain function doesn't mean life defines it that way.

      1. aguasilver profile image77
        aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Hopefully you can see the oxymoron in that statement, they would not be NDE situations if the folk died.... just saying! smile

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFxc67bL … n&NR=1

        Take a look at this and come back with a comment?

      2. profile image0
        Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        They call them NEAR death experiences to allow the equivocation, "Well, they didn't die, they just NEARLY died."

        Let's call them for what they actually are: NON-death.

        Confusingly, these NON-death experiences are still used to corroborate claims of the afterlife.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image68
          A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Isn't it something?

          I've heard stories ranging from people "seeing" Jesus, to a woman who became little bubbles, to a man who was a butterfly in the forest, to a man who "experienced" Hell, to a woman who encountered Extraterrestrials... Such a wide range of experiences that really don't prove much except that the brain does strange things when a person is near death.

          1. aguasilver profile image77
            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            That's odd, the cardiologist I posted a link to above, found a uniformity to the experiences,as a cardiologist, he witnessed a large number all from heart attacks, so maybe NDE's are cause related? smile

            Or maybe they represent an area where non believers (in anything spiritual) are uncomfortable to look into with the same open mind they all profess to own?

            1. A Thousand Words profile image68
              A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Actually, you don't know me at all Aquasilver, and I frequently watch the show I survived: Beyond and Back. While there are SOME uniformities shared, there are some experiences that are COMPLETELY different from each other, even with those reoccurring experiences. There are people who experience beautiful, wonderful things, where Jesus is not involved, and they also aren't Christian, but they do not experience a "hell." There are Christians who see either Jesus, or former family members who tell them the "Lord" isn't ready for them yet. There are superficial people who experience "hell" or something like it, like dark rooms with no windows an the like, there are people who just experience crazy stuff like extraterrestrials. The range of experiences are too different to say that what's happening isn't anymore than chemicals released in the brain during these times, that have different "side effects" for different people, much like how people taking a certain drug might experience similar side effects, with different ones, as well.

              At the end of the day, these people come back. Which is why it'a NEAR death (or Non-Death is actually better) experiences. Only people that have actually died know what happens when you die.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Near-death 'should be' non-death?

                What point would that make?

                "I was not close to death.."

                "I experienced something non-death.."

                Non-death is life. Non-life is death. 

                We experience plenty every day pertaining to life. [non-death]

                The phrase coveys near to the point of death.

                Non-death does nothing but change the term to a word that doesn't describe the situation. That would make no sense at all. The purpose of the term is to describe the situation correctly.

                Near doesn't mean did.

                "I almost died.."

                "I was nearly dead.."

                Near-death is the appropriate term.

                The people that coined it weren't idiots.

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I think he means that the person didn't die and to proclaim he was near death is to actually know he was going to be dead.  Millions of people have these "near death" things but how close to death do you define near death? It's like talking about a light bulb, it's either on or off not nearly on or nearly off.

                  1. EinderDarkwolf profile image62
                    EinderDarkwolfposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    What about a dimmer light bulb? They can hit nearly on and nearly off stages...

                    1. vector7 profile image60
                      vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      I wasn't going to entertain the obvious. But thank you.

                    2. artblack01 profile image60
                      artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Yes, however, but even if it has any light it's still on. Just because it's using a lower voltage. It's dead only when the filament breaks. smile

                2. A Thousand Words profile image68
                  A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Who said that they were idiots? I'm pretty sure the point Chasuk made when calling calling "Near death experiences" non-death experience is because of just that. Those people, though "close" to death, were still alive. It was just another experience, though life changing at times, that happened while they were alive, and just as subject to inquiry and skepticism as any other experience we have when alive. That's it's not all that special and certainly nothing definitive. One of the episodes I survived beyond and back had a man who became somewhat of a protege in music after his NDE, and neglected his wife so much that she left him, and years later he regrets the route that he went. he was completely swept away by his experience, and ended up neglecting and losing his wife. How different is it from the "eye opening" experiences we have when we're not near death?

                  Again, only people who are dead know what happens when you die. All we do here is speculate.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    There are ALSO examples of people who in fact were dead.

                    Not only this, but if people can tell you what was taking place in another room while their body is undergoing emergency services, I don't care what the statistics on the chart says.

                    That's not 'physically' possible.

                    And I've read many of them.

                    Some of them simply freak me out..

                    The people that use the term have phd's, degrees, look at the monitors, stats, listen to the patient's testimonies.

                    I simply meant they would have probably corrected the term if it didn't suit the condition correctly.

                    They are pretty qualified intellectually.

                3. profile image0
                  Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Artblack01 and A Thousand Words have both provided a sufficient answer to your question.

            2. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Why would you proclaim something to be a religious experience if you know for a fact it was a dream?
              I had a dream about jesus once, doesn't make me want to believe he was an actual person or that it was a spiritual thing.

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Well. That's the point Jesus made.

                If you require and demand proof, you probably won't get it.

                Matthew 18:3 was regarding this.

                I'm not trying to be ugly either. Sincerely

                1. profile image0
                  AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  So, as a believer you must admit that there are only two possibilities: a)you are either right to believe, or b) you are a gullible sucker.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Yes, there are only two options.

                    For once, we agree completely.



                    But if you're right I've lost nothing.

                    If you're wrong I've gained everything..

                    Win/win



                    If I'm wrong you've lost nothing.

                    If I'm right you've lost everything.

                    Win/lose

                    smile

                    1. profile image0
                      AKA Winstonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Living your life as a gullible sucker is not considered a "win" in most circles, and Pascal's wager has been refuted thousands of times.

                      There is no other way to look at it - you are either right or you are an idiot.

                    2. artblack01 profile image60
                      artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Not really, the only way I would lose is if God were a dick. If god's not a dick then he'd understand why I don't believe in him and if he is a dick then he isn't worth believing in even if he does exist. I don't bow down to anyone anyway because I believe in something greater.

                2. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  That's the best con job ever!

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Yeah, that's exactly what he means..

                    Get that head a little bigger. Maybe you can float and watch the baseball game.

                    smile

    14. Jerami profile image59
      Jeramiposted 13 years ago

      does anyone stop to think that if humanity doesn't destroy ourselves ...
      in another 50 to 100 years "THEY" are going to consider US to be as ignorant as some of us consider those so called "dumb goat herders" of 20000 years ago.

        Everyone has some knowledge of some things and nobody has even a little knowledge about everything.
        Though we act as if we do.

      1. artblack01 profile image60
        artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        At most 3000 years, but to a point I agree with your exaggerated point of view. No one knows everything. Even the smartest people in the world say there is so much they would like to know but don't. One thing they won't admit to is that a God did it, because many things that humans proclaimed as being from god were explained to be from something other than God.... God of the gaps.

        1. Jerami profile image59
          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          What is GOD?  For some the sun is God becaise witthout it there would be no life. For some, the rain.
            For ME; God is that and much much more.
            Is God a fat man in a red suit taking wish lists? NO!

            Until we can agree as to who/what God Is, how can we logically disagree as to If God exists?

    15. FlowOfThought profile image60
      FlowOfThoughtposted 13 years ago

      Woah, woah, woah, I'm going to have to ask what proof you have that Jesus was gods son, or was anything more than the main character in a story.

      1. vector7 profile image60
        vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Repeat lesson..

        No one can prove it to YOU..

        We would need Jesus Himself, and even then you'd 'demand' miracles intead of witness accounts.. lol

        Jesus isn't coming down just because you demand 'proof'... wink

        smile

        1. A Troubled Man profile image60
          A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Did he tell you that himself?

        2. artblack01 profile image60
          artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Jesus isn't coming down because Jesus doesn't exist.

          1. vector7 profile image60
            vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            LOLOLOLOL

            O.. K...

            1. artblack01 profile image60
              artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Glad you accept this fact wink

              1. vector7 profile image60
                vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                PAAHH LEEEZZEEE

                lol lol lol

                1. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Growing up is hard isn't it, you have to give up your imaginary friends and such. Say goodbye, and grow up.

                  1. vector7 profile image60
                    vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Better start ridin.. Got a lot of churches to 'spread the word' to.

                    I'm just a drop in the ocean buddy.

                    And Jesus Christ is the King. Not a playmate.. essay

    16. christianajohan profile image58
      christianajohanposted 13 years ago

      I believe it is difficult but if I have an atheist friend, I will show him the true Christian by my deeds everyday.

      And for that, I believe one day, he may follow me to go to church on Sundays.

    17. profile image0
      Onusonusposted 13 years ago

      This should pretty much take care of it all.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0DT6ulj … 0B6778DE8B

      1. FlowOfThought profile image60
        FlowOfThoughtposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        That video, is propaganda, it contains lies presented as facts to promote the religious agenda. It is offensive, and idiotic, anyone who takes that as anything besides propaganda, is a complete idiot.

        1. vector7 profile image60
          vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Not offended are we?

          lol

        2. aguasilver profile image77
          aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Wow, that one really got you riled I guess....

          So just answer the questions raised and we can agree that we are complete idiots....

          You can do that I presume?

        3. profile image0
          Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I don't know that the video is propagandistic, or that it "lies," but it is tiresomely sophomoric. As such, it is -- from my standpoint -- incapable of inspiring offense.

          1. aguasilver profile image77
            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Well I guess the producers were aiming it at the intelligence of the audience!

            If it's not lies, then doesn't that change everything we are discussing?

            If it is lies, then just answer the questions raised.

            1. profile image0
              Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              The presentation was sophomoric. I pass no judgement concerning the intelligence of the producers, nor of the audience. Further, I don't consider that the video contained lies, as I see no evidence of a deliberate intent to deceive. However, the video's arguments were logically erroneous, so nothing has changed.

              POSSIBLE ANSWER #1
              The eternal, self-sustaining existence of the universe in no way defies the laws of cause and effect. If you can conceive of an infinite regress of toppling dominoes, then you appreciate my point. No one is suggesting stasis, literal or otherwise.

              POSSIBLE ANSWER #2
              As for the universe creating itself, the first possibility -- above -- makes that dilemma moot.

              POSSIBLE ANSWER #3
              Most atheists, including myself, concede the possible existence of Odin, Zeus, Yahweh, Shiva, Quetzalcoatl, etc.

              POSSIBLE ANSWER #4
              The existence of "other dimensions of time" is vague. Are we talking about the existence of a parallel dimension which somehow excludes space? Sorry, but I can't refute the incomprehensible.

              The hypothesis of an "eternally oscillating universe" can't logically be used to argue against a First Cause. I can't refute a non sequitur.

              POSSIBLE ANSWER #5
              The existence or nonexistence of the laws of cause and effect can't logically be used to argue against the existence of God. Again, I can't refute a non sequitur.

              1. aguasilver profile image77
                aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Who pushed the first domino?

                1. profile image0
                  Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm suggesting that the causal chain regresses and progresses infinitely, in both directions, with no "first" and no "last."

                  1. aguasilver profile image77
                    aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    and your 'evidence' for that?

                    1. profile image0
                      Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      I don't have any "evidence" for it, nor did I claim any. Having evidence for such a thing is literally impossible. However, my possible answer is as likely as the existence of a creator, and with the same amount of evidence.

                2. artblack01 profile image60
                  artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Who created the person who pushed the first domino... The mere point of a "first cause" contradicts the very premise of a need for a first cause.

                3. A Troubled Man profile image60
                  A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Where do you get the notion a "Who" was involved?

                  1. artblack01 profile image60
                    artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Another great question.

              2. FlowOfThought profile image60
                FlowOfThoughtposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                In my opinion, the video contained flawed logic, on purpose, to try to tear down arguments that religion can't handle. Without cause there can be no effect, true, the logic I find to be flawed, is that, since you don't understand how things came to be, you immediately turn to some magical figure in the sky.  Do you understand that the bible was actually written by people? Only by people, there was as much intervention from God, as there is intervention by God when people go into court for murdering their children, do you believe God told them to commit murder?

        4. profile image0
          Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Calm down dude, your head might explode.

    18. christianajohan profile image58
      christianajohanposted 13 years ago

      To the propaganda things that have publicized today, we must only believe to the credible people and the authority.

      We can do anything we like here in this world of technology but let's first consider the best people to inform us so as not to mislead our mind.

      1. janesix profile image60
        janesixposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        That made no sense at all.

        1. artblack01 profile image60
          artblack01posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          It made perfect sense... Basically who is the best person to inform us. We are. If we are to lazy to confirm or deny any story that we choose to believe as true then the only people who can lie to us or fool us or fail us is ourselves.  We are ultimately responsible for everything we are. Not God, not our up bringing, not our friends, media or society. We make the choices. We make our lives good or bad.

    19. Randy Godwin profile image60
      Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago

      OH.....MY.....(well not my, but you know what I mean)...GOD!  Do you guys now see what kind of person you should aspire to emulate?  tongue

      Shape shifters, visions, exorcisms, religious indoctrination from birth,  how did she escape unscathed?  yikes



                                             http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

    20. Randy Godwin profile image60
      Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago

      Ah, the voice of experience! lol

      How's it going, AA?  smile

                                      http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

    21. Harry Barkerz profile image58
      Harry Barkerzposted 13 years ago

      He/she suffered a major head injury and his/her brain got messed up. Its very sad if you ask me.

    22. profile image0
      klarawieckposted 13 years ago

      I'm really enjoying this thread! big_smile

      1. aguasilver profile image77
        aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Glad to be of service, we do bar mitzvahs and weddings at reasonable costs and can provide a clown or jugglers if requested.

        *Performing animals cost extra

        smile

        1. vector7 profile image60
          vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          lol

          Klara, you in? You can pet my lion.

          [don't worry, he doesn't eat nice people]

          He's super fluffy.

          smile

    23. aka-dj profile image78
      aka-djposted 13 years ago

      Perhaps both of you are confused about faith.

      Example;
      My wife calls me on the phone and invites me to lunch at a certain time and place.
      I accept the invitation.
      Someone else does the same thing.
      I decline.
      I have faith in my wife showing up at said place and time, so I go.
      If I doubt my wife, I accept the second invite because I HAVE NO FAITH in my wife.

      Where is the religious connotation in the above example?

      1. EinderDarkwolf profile image62
        EinderDarkwolfposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Again utter confusion. You have COMPLETE CONFIDENCE that your wife will be there, to the point that it is fact.

        Possibilities don't allow for confidence that it is fact, it is only a possibility and there are several others. OR perhaps you completely missed the stated definition before you began?

      2. profile image0
        Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        You write, "Perhaps _both_ of you are confused about faith," so I assume that this message is addressed to me as much as it is to EinderDarkwolf.

        I promise you, I understand what faith is, in both its religious and its ordinary contexts. The meaning of the word "faith" isn't the cause for confusion; the meaning of the word "possibility" is.

        The word "possibility" is complicated. It has different meanings, not necessarily dependent on context, but dependent on one's life philosophy.

        Let me give an imperfect analogy, the analogy of the road. Life is that road, and I am driving down it. I come to an intersection. This intersection isn't merely a t-Junction, but a point along the road where I encounter a million different routes. Each route is a possibility. I obviously can't travel all of them. I need to make a choice. The instant that I make that choice, it becomes the only possibility, and all of the other choices collapse behind me.

        On a larger scale, the universe operates in the same manner. Right now, I consider it a possibility that giraffes frolic on the surface of the sun. Until I travel to the sun to confirm or confute that possibility, the possibility remains open. If I were to travel to the sun and confirm the frolicking giraffe, the possibility of its non-existence would slam shut. The existence of the frolicking giraffe would become the only possibility.

        That might not be the way you view life, but that's how I see it.

    24. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago

      So - no you don't accept the theory of evolution?

      Not sure what the garbage about god and jigsaws was for - can't you just give a straight answer?

      Do you simply not understand the theory of evolution? You think there is some doubt as to the evidence for evolution? You don't think there is enough evidence to teach it as fact? What?

      LOL at "evidential standards," You mean - 100% total lack of evidence for god is a matter of standards?

      How odd that you object to something being taught. I thought you had no interest in wordly affairs?

      1. aguasilver profile image77
        aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I accept that it is just a theory, but I cannot accept it as fact, because no scientist has been capable of proving it to even their satisfaction.

        Do you accept that the theory is a fact?

        If you do, then you must also accept that God can be just as much a fact to you, or is your paranoia such that you will accept any old theory as fact so long as it allows you to sit with your hands over you ears and eyes tightly clenched shouting your mantra "God does not exist,God does not exist, God does not exist, God does not exist, God does not exist, God does not exist, God does not exist," in the vain hope that if you chant it oftener enough, you will finally rid the doubts from your inner self?



        I know you are unwilling to understand that God reveals knowledge to you guys in a limited fashion, because science always thinks it knows best, hence when science discovered nuclear energy, it made bombs with it.



        I think that not even you can state that evolution is more than a theory, because IF science could prove it as fact, you would be crowing from the rooftops, instead of slipping it in as 'fact' when you know it is only a theory.

        Parts of it may prove to be a valid theory, but not the whole conceptual theory that you hope proves there is no need for God.

        You chose to ignore that 2.3 billion believers have experienced factual evidence for God, in their understanding, and indeed the evidence for God outweighs the evidence for no god.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uvKH5qisgg

        If you can bear to watch, see how you refute this better than the now deceased Mr Hitchins managed.

        For people who only have one life to live, you should move through to about 12 minutes in to hear the relevant action that showed Hitchens' was incapable of disproving what was presented.



        I do not object to something being taught, I object to something being taught as FACT when it is only a THEORY.

        That is not being involved with the world, it is simply pointing out the error that lying about the subject causes.

        1. profile image0
          Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I am fan of Hitch, but I acknowledge that he fumbled in this debate. However, if you have watched many debates in which Hitch is a participant, you will know that this happens rarely.

          1. aguasilver profile image77
            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I acknowledge that he had no answers and lost the debate, and no matter how rarely this happened that merely says that in other debates he was fortunate not to debate someone who actually had the better points, and could present them clearly leaving him no wriggle room.

            I also realised that he may have been under par as he probably knew he was dying from cancer and may have had other things on his mind.

            Wonder where he is debating now?

            Maybe one of our resident atheists would care to answer the questions he could not?

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              What questions could he not answer? Is this another one of those you get to say something ridiculous and by default it is true if no one can provide proof it is not real?

              And no - I don't have the time to watch the video. He is not debating anywhere - he is dead.

              1. aguasilver profile image77
                aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Err actually all of them... smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Well - throw out a question then. Not going to bother answering your other rant - you had me convinced you were unconcerned with worldly affairs - now I know that is not the case. wink

            2. profile image0
              Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Craig is eloquent, learned, and intimidating. I own -- and have read, twice -- his best known book, "Reasonable Faith," and I subscribe to his newsletter. If you read "Reasonable Faith" with an open-mind, you will discover that Craig expresses the same points again and again, and that they aren't very good points. However, he presents them so skilfully that few people notice.

              As for your challenge, I have the transcript of the debate, and I believe that you are referring to the question that Hitchens paraphrases here:

              Hitchens: "In your first round, Doctor, you said that N. T. Wright, who is an impressive person, says that no explanation of the success of Christianity is possible that doesn't rest on the terms of its being true, in other words Wright says, 'It was so successful, it must have been that the people were so strongly motivated to believe it, that it must have been true.' I regard that as a very, very unsafe assumption. Or, if it is a safe one, then it must surely apply to Islam and to Mormonism. I mean, these are two very, very, very fast growing religions; have people prepared to sacrifice enormously for it; have ancestors who were absolutely determined of the truth of it at the time and who made extraordinary conquests in its name. If you're going to grant this for one religion it seems to me you have to be willing, not just willing, you may indeed be compelled to make this concession for all of them and that, I think, would be not just an unsafe assumption but for most of you here a distinctly unwelcome one."

              Is this the question that you would like one of our resident atheists to answer?

              1. aguasilver profile image77
                aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                No, though I did think the words eloquent and perceptive, it did not answer the question, it only evaded the question by diversion, something which some atheists in general seem to use frequently. (Not referring to you)

                And of course the answer to Hitchens' point raised is obvious (though I concede not to that particular audience perhaps) that all three religions do hold the truth, but equally all three also have had error added to them, (by their earthly leaders)but that does not detract from the raw truth they contain.

                Islam acknowledges Christ, but MUST view Him erroneously or their tenets tumble.

                Mormonism likewise.

                Both religions acknowledge God fully, they have just added to the word of the book, against the directives provided.

                1. profile image0
                  Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Wright's criterion for judging the truth of Christianity was the success of Christianity, and not any doctrinal component of Christianity. Based on that criterion -- not criteria -- Hitchens ably refuted Wright's claim.

                  If Wright had said, "Christianity is the true faith because it is successful, because its adherents view Christ correctly, and because they obey the bible's directive to ignore false scripture," then Hitchens' response would likely have been different, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

                  1. aguasilver profile image77
                    aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    ...and as he did not, and now he is dead, we will never know... smile

                    1. mischeviousme profile image61
                      mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      If christians are supposed to ignore false doctrines, prophets and whatnot, then why do they read the bible? It was written by men claiming to know something. Tell me, how does any of what those primitives said, provide truth?

                2. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Let me get this straight - You claim that your beliefs are true because a few people believe them? And this is the question Hitchens destroyed but you now need to twist and say that the religions that do not agree with yours are true, but their earthly leaders have added stuff that make it not true - despite the fact that millions of people believe it? Which makes it true by default - except when it doesn't because you say so?

                  Dear me. No wonder your religion needed to be spread by the sword. wink

                  1. aguasilver profile image77
                    aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    No Mark, once again you did not get it straight, stop being lazy and listen for yourself, then make your excuses as you wish, it matters not a jot, the fact that has appeared this week is that YOUR atheist views are as unsubstantiated evidentially as the God proof position, i.e. nobody can prove they are correct, nobody can prove they are incorrect.

                    That leaves it as a personal decision, which I have maintained all along.

                    YOU decide what YOU believe and live and die by the decision

        2. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          So - you do concern yourself with worldly affairs? All that guff about not having an interest in worldly affairs was just lies to make yourself look good? I thought as much.

          Evolution is taught as FACT because it is a FACT as well as a theory. The FACTS are taught as FACTS and the theory that explains them is taught as scientific theory. This is somewhat different to the use of the word "theory," by people such as yourself.

          1. aguasilver profile image77
            aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Oh you do clutch at straws and try to twist things in your desperation, don't you.

            We are commanded to be 'in' the world but not 'of it' and I obey that command, surely you can understand that if I were to 'go Amish' I would not be here answering your inanities.

            "Evolution is taught as FACT because it is a FACT as well as a theory"

            OK... that makes PERFECT sense, so you think that makes it OK? and as long as the teachers MAKE THAT CLEAR then I have no problem, I guess they DO make that clear, in every class they teach this subject in?

            I would hate the 'children' who read your words here to get the wrong impression about what is fact and what is theory, it may impair their judgement.

            I would have preferred:

            "Evolution is taught as THEORY because it is a THEORY as well as a having some factual standing, in the future we may be able to prove more of the theory, but for now it is just a theory that we BELIEVE is true, however in keeping with our own high scientific standards of evidence, we refrain from endorsing as fact, something which we cannot prove to be true"

            Perhaps they could put that in all the text books they produce and inflict on children?

            Then what you BELIEVE would be on a par with what we believe, and folks, especially children, could be given a balanced explanation of both the current 'theories' that exist, and make their own mind up.

            Interesting that in the end, you have to rely on BELIEF rather than FACT for what you promote, and choose to push it as fact when it is just theory, until you can replicate the experiment under controlled conditions...

    25. Jerami profile image59
      Jeramiposted 13 years ago

      I believe in Evolution to a extent. Due to selective breeding and other causes, the appearance of certain species do change.
         
        For this entire universe to suddenly appear out of thin air is magic indeed.
        For a God to simply speak a word and the universe to pop into existence instantly or over a longer period of time is magic indeed.
        Whether simply a big band or a word from, God caused it .. It's Magic ..
       
        Everyone believes in magic!

      1. Randy Godwin profile image60
        Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        It's only magic if you don't understand it.  Lightening was magic to early man.  So were the predictions of summer solstice by learned priests in ancient cultures to common men who had no way to know it was anything but.  Magic only exists to the ignorant, not the knowledge seekers of the world.  What real magic have you ever witnessed, Jerami?  smile


                                                        http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

        1. Jerami profile image59
          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I'm sorry ...  A-GIN; I posted and had to go away.

            Don't Ya think it is a Magic trick for  ... BANG ...  ther it is .. s0me little thing apears, and then it turns into two different things. Sounds like magic to me.  And then after a bunch of time passes ...  here we are!

            I'm just saying! ..  Either way ? evolution or creation theories ;
          either way it was a MAJIK trick!

             I believe in magic cause we are the product of Magic however we think it happened creation or evolution it is still magic.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image60
            Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You need to go back up the page and check out Josak's explanation for how something can come from nothing.  I believe you may then understand why this old tired query "how can something come from nothing without Jesus's dad doin' it?" is put to rest.

            No, merely because we don't understand something doesn't mean some supernatural creature causes it.  In fact, feel free to post a report of a modern miracle, something we all can agree has no possible natural cause.  Something without any other possible explanation other than a supernatural cause.  Something only a god could have done.


                                            http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

            1. aguasilver profile image77
              aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Why bother?

              There is no way of proving either 'theory' and we all know that.

              God gave us a perfect world, just like Lennon dreamed of, no religion, no war, no possessions, and we threw it away in exchange for selfishness and knowledge, so here you are bloating yourselves out with your superior knowledge and therefore necessitous ridicule of religion, and you still miss the ONE big thing.

              Why are you bothering?

              As a believer in God and Christ, I am 100% secure in my relationship with God through Christ.

              If the Muslims are right, then I would burn in Hell, if you atheists are right, I will rot in the grave, and I have no problem with those alternatives BECAUSE I AM 100% secure in my faith.

              I don't care or mind that you are 100% secure in your beliefs.

              In fact I think thats great, and wish you well, but I do wonder WHY you need to keep telling believers they are wrong?

              Like some evangelical preacher in reverse?

              WHY WOULD THAT BE GUYS?

              1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Tell you what (as you appear to have a comprehension problem) - why don't you stop preaching the drivel you preach about making a choice before it is too late! - I guarantee people will stop telling you that you are wrong.

                Guaranteed.

                See how that works? You stop preaching hell and damnation - people stop telling you it is garbage.

                The IQ thing - probably got something to do with all the other "facts" you share that are total fabrications - like Jesus tole yer ter do I guess?  lol

                1. aguasilver profile image77
                  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Look again Mark, I have not said what you refer to, all I am doing is stating that I am 100% secure in MY faith, not preaching hell and damnation, but even if I were, it has no bearing on what YOU believe AS you are 100% secure in your beliefs also, so why stalk me like some lovelorn teenager?

                  I am secure, you are secure, that's great, I am truly contented that you know the truth and are 100% secure in your belief.

                  You need have no fear about heaven or hell, you KNOW you are correct, and I congratulate you in your decision.

                  But YOU have made YOUR decision, just as I have made MY decision, and every single person who lives and breaths will make their decision, or not in their lifetime.

                  Then, when we die, we will ALL find out the truth, and I welcome that day.

                  What have I said there that concerns you?

                  You ARE 100% secure in your decision, aren't you?



                  I see how YOU wish it would work, but reality often is less than our dreams.

                  I will keep doing whatever I feel like doing, and am guided to write by the Holy Spirit, and you are free to do as you wish.

                  You can make all the excuses you wish about me frightening little children, or whatever, they are hogwash and the folk who read these forums know it, so who cares, you simply make yourself look obsessive and immature.

                  Like the sign on the Stonewall bus says: Get over it.



                  All it has to do with is how the results came back, I have no need to lie about it, it's never bothered me before and it will not bother me now or in the future. I'm not boasting,it makes little difference to my life, just stating a fact after someone accused me of being stupid too many times.

                  It does explain why I have often been annoyed when dealing with people, and I sincerely hope to change that and be more considerate with folk who perhaps have problems understanding things.

                  What's your IQ as you seem to think it is relevant?

                  1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                    Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Sorry - I thought you wanted to know why people were telling you your beliefs are hate mongering nonsense.

                    I was just telling you why. Perhaps I didn't express myself well enough for you to understand, but people are telling you your beliefs are hate mongering nonsense because you keep broadcasting your beliefs. If you stopped running around trying to scare the children into making a choice before it is too late! - I guarantee this would stop also.

                    Guess you didn't really want to know and were just whining?

                    I have no idea what my IQ is, nor do I care what yours is. But - given your predilection for fabricating "facts," I also doubt whatever you claim yours to be.

                    Have *experiments* shown the soul to weigh 1 or 2 ounces? I forget. lol lol

                    What are the mathematical odds against evolution again? I forget. lol lol

                    Does "improbable" still mean the same as "impossible"? I forget. lol lol

                    1. aguasilver profile image77
                      aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Gosh Mark, if you are forgetting that much of the time, you should check for Alzheimer's.

                      It's only too late when we die.

                      Up until then we can change our minds.

                      Like I said, I am 100% secure in my faith... how about you?

                      Your pretence to be concerned about the little children is just that, a ploy to try and beat those who you perceive as opposing your mantras and thwarting your brainwashing exercises.

                      But I will put a Mark Knowles Health Warning  when I mention making a decision, that should keep the little children (who in any case should not be reading here) safe from the wicked bogeyman that you try to make me out to be. smile

              2. profile image0
                Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Some enjoy posting inflammatory messages to online communities. I'm not going to psychoanalyze those people, nor identify the several who post here.

                Some seek affirmation of their own cleverness.

                Some crave association with the like-minded. They emulate the behavior of dominant members of their online group because it seems the only way to gain acceptance.

                Some believe that religion -- perhaps Christianity especially -- is a genuine evil from which they feel compelled to rescue as many as they can.

                1. Hokey profile image61
                  Hokeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Some people just like to debate.

                  1. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    I wish that they liked to argue instead.

                    Unfortunately, the formality of debate is usually expressed in intellectually dishonest showmanship.

                2. aguasilver profile image77
                  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Good answer, and of course you have analysed it correctly, I have just decided that playing their games is futile and an empty waste of time.

                  Their decision stays the same whatever reason they are here, unless they wake up to a new reality.

              3. Randy Godwin profile image60
                Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                You are no different than Jim Jones.  He misled not only adults, but small children too!  He convinced them they were to follow him to South America to start a new life where they could practice their own idea of their god.

                I am willing to wager their families wished they had tried harder to convince these poor deluded human beings not to listen to the guy who was spouting the SAME CR*P you are.  This is why we non-believers try so diligently to make people understand how dangerous it is to listen to the likes of you.

                Those suicides are because people can be convinced to do anything if they fall for the garbage those like you spew.  I consider it my duty to expose the simple foolish lies those of you try to make sense of. 

                You are pushing a dangerous and long standing scam which has caused literally millions of deaths during our planet's history.  You are no better than Jones in your hypocrisy.  He thought he was doing the lord's will too, along with Cotton Mather and many others of your ilk.  If the sandal fits......!

                                                               http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

                1. aguasilver profile image77
                  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Fortunately the sandal does not fit.

                  I have no cult  aspirations, I would not even pastor a church when asked, I write here and reach folk, mainly believers, and challenge Churchianity.

                  Glad I hit a sore spot though, and thanks for the look at your motivations.

                  1. Randy Godwin profile image60
                    Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Hmmm. The same thing Jones said. 



                    You have no need to aspire to a cult, you are already a member.  Seen one.....



                    Not sore in the least, AS.  I've had no pain at all since I realized how delusional the christian faith really was at an early age.  Too bad you need an invisible being to control your life. and make you be what you consider to be a good person.  Many of us merely do it for ourselves. without needing any of the gods.

                                                                     http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

                    1. profile image0
                      Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Membership in a cult is decided by the mainstream, and what aguasilver believes is pretty ordinary.

    26. Jerami profile image59
      Jeramiposted 13 years ago

      We may know HOW it came out of the HAT?   But where did the hat come from?

    27. Jerami profile image59
      Jeramiposted 13 years ago

      Randy Godwin wrote:
      Magic only exists to the ignorant, not the knowledge seekers of the world.  What real magic have you ever witnessed, Jerami?
      = - = - = -

        Can you see the ignorance in presuming ourselves to be knowledgable?
      Everyone on the face of the planet presumes themselves to be.
        And we ALL are to some degree.

        I think when looking from the universal perspective we ALL fall in the lower 1% range.
        We are wraped in magic, from our toenails to the top of our heads. I think?

        We are the Rabbit and not the audience

      1. Randy Godwin profile image60
        Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        No, I cannot see the ignorance of presuming myself knowledgeable.  I cannot speak for you, as only you know your own limitations.  I know what my shortcomings are and freely admit to ignorance--not such a bad word as some think--in some subjects.  But even ignorance is relative to whom one is compared to in scientific matters. 

        Some believers really kill me.  They say scientists are in cahoots to hide the truth about evolution and are merely publishing false findings to make it seem the biblical slant is wrong.  And not just here either.  All over the world well known scientists are involved in a vast conspiracy to try and keep people like you and Aquasilver from believing in Jesus. 

        I promise you, you guys aren't that important to these people, Jerami.  And what could their possible motive be to say evolution is true when it is not?  I mean really, you think this vast conspiracy could be kept secret?  Not one scientist would believe in Jesus and rat the others out?  lol   

         

        1% of what range?  Idon't know unless you are pointing to Aquasilver's meager 142 IQ. lol  There is no magic, simply ignorance of facts. smile

                                                   http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

        1. Jerami profile image59
          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          i see nothing you said subject to arguement except the "people like you" part of your statement.

          1. Randy Godwin profile image60
            Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry, I didn't think you believed in evolution, Jerami.  My bad! I started to write "Aquasilver but I had already asked him the same question which he seemed to ignore earlier on in this or another thread. smile


                                           http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

    28. Jerami profile image59
      Jeramiposted 13 years ago

      Randy said
        No, merely because we don't understand something doesn't mean some supernatural creature causes it.

        Well. if it is not a natural occurance I would call it supernatural.

      1. Randy Godwin profile image60
        Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        But merely because we don't recognize it as natural because of our lack of knowledge concerning it, does not automatically make it "supernatural."  It is only supernatural if there is no possibility of it ever being shown to be a natural occurrence in nature or the universe, and may only occur with the aid of mystical beings.

                                           http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

    29. Jerami profile image59
      Jeramiposted 13 years ago

      Randy said
        "But merely because we don't recognize it as natural because of our lack of knowledge concerning it,

      = - =
      Hold that thought  ....... 
       
      =================

      "...does not automatically make it "supernatural."  It is only supernatural if there is no possibility of it ever being shown to be a natural occurrence   

      = - == - = -

      How do we know if there is a chance or not of our understanding something in the future that we do not understand now?
      =====================================

         Usually when we do find out something that we didn't know before, ...  It never looks like what we thought it would.
        At least that has been my experience.

    30. By His Way profile image61
      By His Wayposted 13 years ago

      Eghck...too much to read through. (I tried though!!)



      Me personally: 

      It was something I didn't really seek. I was actually mad and at the end of a rope. I was angry at a god I had thought might exist but wanted to disprove....REALLY badly. I grew up in church, but "this god" was "never" a friend of mine. It was all an obligation to me back then. It was something I could lash out at even if I didnt' believe in it.

      I sought to disprove. One day, I got the opposite of what I was seeking. I was desperate and seeking SOMETHING, and it just happened to be God that I found.

      A lifetime of struggling and defiance and one day I was overwhelmed in a way I can not explain and it continues to work in my life. What I "feel" correlates to what the bible says.

      *shrug*

      I'm not big on shoving this down people's throats. I refuse to actually. One would be amazed at my past and me now though. That's all I have to stand by and it's honestly pretty amazing. That's up to a person to observe though.

        big_smile

      1. mischeviousme profile image61
        mischeviousmeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Of course it does. It was interpreted to fit the language, plain and simple. I Too was a bible thumper for a time, luckily, I recieved a good does of reasoning and common sense before it was to late.

        1. aguasilver profile image77
          aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Cripes! what would have happened if you had not been de-converted?

          Delighted you are now 100% secure in your new beliefs.

          What could be too late?

        2. aka-dj profile image78
          aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          There is a growing sentiment in general, that what once was "common sense", is now becoming less common!
          Are you absolutely sure you still have that?

          1. profile image0
            Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The definition of "common sense" has never been agreed for all people at all times.

            In other words, not much has changed.

            1. aka-dj profile image78
              aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Maybe not, but I can vouch for a lot of stupid stuff being said and done by seemingly intelligent people.
              And I refer to daily life, not ideological, or religious stuff.

              1. A Thousand Words profile image68
                A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Well, we people often speak before we should, but that happens to everyone. It is best to sit back and analyze one's thoughts before sharing them out loud, but we all will fall or possibly have fallen victim to saying mindless blabber on occasion, or of convincing ourselves that ludicrous ideas are true. But they often seem plausible to the individual at the moment, until they learn something different, if they are open to learning something that's not heavily based on subjectivity. But there's no reason reason to look down on people because of it, unless they're trying to shove it down someone else's throat almost literally.

                1. aka-dj profile image78
                  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  No need to get too deep about it.

                  I was merely stating an observation from everyday life.

        3. By His Way profile image61
          By His Wayposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Did you have bad experiences (while a believer) with other believers - their talk vs their walk ?

      2. Claire Evans profile image69
        Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks.  I liked your comment.  People don't know what "just a feeling" feels like.  It's the Holy Spirit.  One thing I do know for certain is that no one will ever find God unless they have a broken and contrite heart.  It breaks down all barriers.

        1. By His Way profile image61
          By His Wayposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          It does.

      3. A Troubled Man profile image60
        A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Doesn't really seem like you found anything at all other than a need to find SOMETHING as a result of desperation and would appear that the SOMETHING you found was just yourself.

        1. By His Way profile image61
          By His Wayposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Mmm.....it would seem that way, but I did look to other things that were "me".  My entire life I have. They were fleeting and always had a negative consequence either instantly or down the road. This faith, this god....it's different. So, yes, I was desperate. I was desperate for something that would actually work and I can boldy say that it wasn't completely ME that helped. I've only messed things up on my own.  smile

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            It very well may appear that way because we sometimes tend to focus on the negative things that have happened in our lives and sometimes forget about all the positive things we accomplished. Often, it takes someone else to point those out to us in order for us to realize we did those things entirely on our own.

        2. By His Way profile image61
          By His Wayposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          That was a really good point btw lol   I was like...heeeeey....  Like I said, it's just something to experience. I can't prove anything to anyone other than to live out my life in a certain way.  To a point, it was me finding me, but I just never felt complete on my own. Peace.

          1. A Troubled Man profile image60
            A Troubled Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I have enjoyed your posts here, however few they are and can see that you do indeed appear complete entirely on your own.

    31. Randy Godwin profile image60
      Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago

      At what number of participants does a cult cease to be so?  The precise number would be helpful since you are apparently aware of it.

                                                      http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

      1. profile image0
        Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        There isn't a set number.

        A cult is any group, large or small, whose beliefs (or practices) deviate from the norm, usually in a strange or unusual way. The abnormal -- that which deviates from the norm -- is decided by the mainstream. In other words, any group with common beliefs (or practices) can't be accurately described as a cult.

    32. Randy Godwin profile image60
      Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago

      All cults have common beliefs and practices.  And even in the different christian cults they differ in beliefs from group to group.  There are so many sects of christianity, with different slants on religion, even within the cult itself.  Mainstream thus becomes a matter of individual opinion.

      These forums are an excellent example of this.  You see different opinions in the very same cult.  Christianity is composed of quite a large number of individual cults from catholic to mormon, with all sorts of "we are the one true faith" groups in between.  A large cult, composed of smaller cults, as it were.  Other religions are much the same.

                                              http://s1.hubimg.com/u/6186572.jpg

      1. profile image0
        Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I don't know whether we are arguing, or merely sharing slightly divergent perceptions. I'm going to proceed as if the latter were true.

        Most religions of the world are divided into subgroups. These subgroups are usually referred to as denominations, sects, and cults. Denominations are, typically, the large, dominant subgroups, coming in different sizes. Members of the larger denominations get to decide which of the smallest denominations are sects or cults. The words "sect" and "cult" are not interchangeable, but the differences are not important to this discussion.

        That's how it works, at least if you are interested in how it is perceived by most sociologists.

    33. profile image0
      Rad Manposted 13 years ago

      This is a very good question? What would it take? Well, it would take a lot of manipulation and hunger. Get them week and tired and them force them to chant something about Gods love or possible something like (I believe in God, I believe in God...) Don't forget to remind them that if they don't believe in God (exactly as YOU do) they will burn in hell. That is the kicker. I know that has never crossed your mind, but it should. The threat of burning will get you far if they are hungry and tired. The stupid and uneducated covert much faster. They unfortunately usually end up in prison. The prison system is full of Christians for some reason.

      Good luck.

    34. Druid Dude profile image60
      Druid Dudeposted 13 years ago

      Equal odds. Works in Vegas, and there, the odds favor the house. Not even close to the gamble you are taking. But, what do I know? Ever hear of insider trading?

    35. Druid Dude profile image60
      Druid Dudeposted 13 years ago

      Know how many people play the lottery?

    36. Druid Dude profile image60
      Druid Dudeposted 13 years ago

      The Brain is actually a part of the physical body, the consciousness, the state of mind where thought, abstract thought and inspiration come forth into material reality, is linked, as is our life energy to the cosmic energy of Einsteinian science. Energy isn't abillion things...energy is one thing. It is linked to us, and we are linked to it. Noetics and the fractal nature of all creation tells us what God is and where God is found. No mystery, folks. Just one big, unending parable.

      1. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I think someone is making stuff up!!!!! And I think someone doesn't understand what consciousness is!!! And I think that someone is glowing!!!!

    37. Druid Dude profile image60
      Druid Dudeposted 13 years ago

      Which part? Tell you what...define: Energy, as in E=MC2. Then, I will define energy...oh, ta hell with it. Everything in this universe is either composed of matter, or it is flat out energy. All matter exists because of energy. Remove the energy from the equation...and everything disappears like a dream. Consciousness...I'm not talking about awareness, I'm talking about what makes you you. You, who are evidence of the three-fold image of the divine. Yo momma, yo daddy, and you. Both parents exist in you and that is all you are...but you aren't either one.  You don't think for one minute that the conscious awareness of a dolphin or a chimp compares to what man does, upstairs behind his Temple walls. Am I ranting? Maybe, maybe not.

      1. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Your definition of Consciousness is not accurate. Consciousness is simple the aware part of your brian. The conscious part of your brain simply tries to make sense of the unconscious part of the brain. Some of us are more aware (conscious) of the unconscious and therefore have slightly more control of our minds. The conscious part of the brain simply does a play by play of what we do, kind of justifying the what the unconscious mind does.

        You and I have no idea how conscious a dolphin or a chimp is. Thus far, there is evidence that bottlenose dolphins, some apes, macaques, elephants and magpies are self-aware.

        My dog knows not to bit even though his instinct would tell him to. He displays affection and tenderness and compassion. That's more than I can say for some people.

    38. Jerami profile image59
      Jeramiposted 13 years ago

      The Satanic Agenda is for me to think that I can speak the words right out of Gods mouth. And they go forth to do whaterer they will.

    39. vector7 profile image60
      vector7posted 13 years ago

      "This "Rockefeller Foundation file" indisputably exists, and you likely "came across" it the same way that most of your conspiratorially-minded peers did, by reading about it at inforwars.com, one of Alex Jones' websites.

      The document is called "Scenarios for the Future of Technology and International Development," and you can download it as a PDF here:

      http://www.gbn.com/articles/pdfs/GBN&am … opment.pdf

      Yes, it was produced jointly by the Rockefeller Foundation and the Global Business Network.

      The Rockefeller Foundation is a philanthropic NGO that has funded both despicable and laudable things. For instance, it funded Nazi eugenic research. That's unambiguously despicable. However, it also funded the development of the yellow fever vaccine. That's unambiguously laudable.

      The Global Business Network is a consulting firm which assists NGOs and governments with something called "scenario planning."

      Scenario planning is described here:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scenario_planning

      If you read the article, you will discover that scenario planning is a sophisticated form of modeling which attempts to avoid disasters by preparing for them before they occur. It doesn't try to extrapolate future disasters, nor does it operate on the principle that any particular scenario is likely.

      Planning for the future is usually considered a virtue, as in the fable of the ant and the grasshopper.

      If an evil event such as this one ever happens, I suggest that we place partial blame on the conspiracy theorists who enable self-fulfilling prophecy.

      "The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behavior which makes the originally false conception come true. . . the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning.(Yet we know that Millingville's bank was solvent, that it would have survived for many years had not the misleading rumor created the very conditions of its own fulfillment)."

      That's the definition of "self-fulfilling prophecy" provided by sociologist Robert K. Merton, the man who coined the phrase.

      Aren't you alarmed that, by trumpeting a future event as inevitable -- no matter how heinous or insane that event may be -- some deranged individual will be persuaded to make it happen?"

      -Chasuk

      Me and you came to terms with some agreement on some things and I consider you fairly intuitive. But, I can't do anything less than blunt here. Strictly business, you understand.


      That is the silliest thing I've ever heard.

      One paragraph above even states that, contextually, funding the nazi's wasn't that bad, is not a notable event, and was promoted by people reading what those that did so were doing.

      The things brought up were set in action BEFORE anyone began reporting on the issue.

      And no one with billions of dollars counts others as equal, let alone pays enough attention to them to influence their choices, save the individual is wealthy and of their own class financially, or power-wise that is, as well.


      It seems to me reasoning has been side-stepped in order to push out the very obvious things and AGAIN blame is passed on those attempting to shed light on the wealthy, selfish, and stupid agenda of the "elite" as they call them.. Yet in my opinion are simply as stupid as the money that runs their lives.


      Apply your above spoken and quoted terms to Israel's re-establishment and your suggestions are worth less than thin air, invisible and void. There is no human initiative that could have shaped such an event, and if you think otherwise you are [whoever 'you' is] a useless case in attempting to pursuade clear logic.


      Not only this, there comes a number of events, or 'coincidences', in which one suddenly realizes there is indeed more to the situation than what meets the eye. To think things are so simple that 'coincidences' keep happening or 'the masses' change anything nowadays is absolutely ridiculous and laughable.

      1. profile image0
        Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        While I thank you for your thoughtful reply, you misconstrue some of what I said.

        Nowhere did I imply that the funding of the Nazis by the Rockefeller Foundation (RF) "wasn't that bad." In fact, I called this action "unambiguously despicable." However, the RF has undeniably done some good. I pointed this out not to mitigate its culpability, but to counter its misrepresentation as an avatar of absolute evil.

        Yes, "the things brought up were set in action BEFORE anyone began reporting on the issue." As I explained, the reason NGOs and governments take advantage of scenario planning is to prepare themselves against disasters that might happen in the future.

        I don't know why Israel's re-establishment is relevant, nor to what  "coincidences" you refer (nor their relevance). I do know that coincidences are much more common than most people think.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98OTsYfTt-c

        1. A Thousand Words profile image68
          A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          He's referring to the "prophecy" of Israel's re-establishment as a country, I believe. That's not all that hard to do, however, especially since they got help from the US and Britain as well, and the Us continues to protect them... actually, self-fulfilled prophecy if ever there were one.

          1. profile image0
            Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Ah. So he is switching the topic from Satanic agendas to evidence of prophetic claims.

            Thanks. :-)

            Yes, the re-establishment of Israel is a textbook example of self-fulfilling prophecy.

            1. vector7 profile image60
              vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              "I do know that coincidences are much more common than most people think."

              -Chausk


              Yes, well I believe that is called a simple minded assumption.

              You both have proven the very points I aimed to estabish.

              Lets see just what "coincidences" continue to take place flawlessly.

              Enjoy, keep hard at that denial.

              Happy posting.

              smile

              1. profile image0
                Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                So, am I fairly intuitive, or simple-minded? Or intuitively simple-minded? Or simple-mindedly intuitive?

                1. vector7 profile image60
                  vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  You aren't helping your credit to accuracy Chasuk.

                  I stated what the statement was, not that it defined you.

                  smile

                  1. profile image0
                    Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Playful joking; that's what my question was an example of. Not a successful example, apparently.

                    1. vector7 profile image60
                      vector7posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      lol..

                      Well, I certainly noted sincerety from first impression on this end.

                      Smileys that wink usually indicate: I made a funny.

                      Or there is the other option, informing me afterwards. lol

                      smile

              2. A Thousand Words profile image68
                A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Flawlessly? Really. I love how people throw that word around. Are you aware of the Jews and how they were able to have what is known today as Israel? There's nothing "flawless" about it... And its existence is hanging on by a US owned thread. You do realize that if the US wasn't an ally, they would've been destroyed ages ago? That's a major flaw if I ever saw one. Certainly not a stable or secure existence, I'm pretty sure the Palestinians and Syrians are still pissed at them, and rightly so, for taking some of their territory.

    40. artblack01 profile image60
      artblack01posted 13 years ago

      I love conspiracy theories, they are so much fun, because they have no basis in reality.  It's mostly fear mongering.  People like to think the can put the pieces together and think there is some sort of cover up, however, if that were the case there would be people higher up making the same connections and making accusation and taking people to court.

      1. EinderDarkwolf profile image62
        EinderDarkwolfposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        My theory on what happened is based in fact, but it is still only a theory. Mine has a perfect basis in reality, and of course, the same people that argue about indoctrination don't think about the "societal" or "governmental" indoctrination....because that's just not possible at all wink.

      2. profile image0
        Chasukposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Unfortunately, the conspiracies that get attention are the ones only backed up by faith-based nonsense, while conspiracies with actual evidence are ignored. If I was prone to paranoia, I'd believe that this was because it suited the agendas of those in power.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image68
          A Thousand Wordsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          That's not paranoia, friend.

      3. Claire Evans profile image69
        Claire Evansposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        No basis in reality? How ignorant are you?

        First of all, there are people who are "higher up" who make the same connections and attempt to take people to court but most of the time they are told to shut up.  Congressman, architects, engineers, etc,  spoke out and said 9-11 was a conspiracy.  Remember also who controls the mainstream media.  Everything I know comes from alternative sources. 

        There is one conspiracy I'd love to wrong with and that is the theory of the Olympic games bombing.  I truly hope I'm wrong.

    41. prettydarkhorse profile image63
      prettydarkhorseposted 13 years ago

      There are stories when people are at their ends wit and all things are going bad, they read the bible, contemplate (whatever form it is), take a vacation, just be with themselves, sort things out, whatever, and they are enlightened so to speak and believe that they are uplifted spiritually! Then they become believer in a supernatural being. It is a need to fulfill themselves spiritually!

    42. Mark O Richardson profile image82
      Mark O Richardsonposted 5 years ago

      To me, it's simple. Faith is a choice. We all have brains. How do we know? We can't see it or feel it. We believe it is there

     
    working

    This website uses cookies

    As a user in the EEA, your approval is needed on a few things. To provide a better website experience, hubpages.com uses cookies (and other similar technologies) and may collect, process, and share personal data. Please choose which areas of our service you consent to our doing so.

    For more information on managing or withdrawing consents and how we handle data, visit our Privacy Policy at: https://corp.maven.io/privacy-policy

    Show Details
    Necessary
    HubPages Device IDThis is used to identify particular browsers or devices when the access the service, and is used for security reasons.
    LoginThis is necessary to sign in to the HubPages Service.
    Google RecaptchaThis is used to prevent bots and spam. (Privacy Policy)
    AkismetThis is used to detect comment spam. (Privacy Policy)
    HubPages Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide data on traffic to our website, all personally identifyable data is anonymized. (Privacy Policy)
    HubPages Traffic PixelThis is used to collect data on traffic to articles and other pages on our site. Unless you are signed in to a HubPages account, all personally identifiable information is anonymized.
    Amazon Web ServicesThis is a cloud services platform that we used to host our service. (Privacy Policy)
    CloudflareThis is a cloud CDN service that we use to efficiently deliver files required for our service to operate such as javascript, cascading style sheets, images, and videos. (Privacy Policy)
    Google Hosted LibrariesJavascript software libraries such as jQuery are loaded at endpoints on the googleapis.com or gstatic.com domains, for performance and efficiency reasons. (Privacy Policy)
    Features
    Google Custom SearchThis is feature allows you to search the site. (Privacy Policy)
    Google MapsSome articles have Google Maps embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
    Google ChartsThis is used to display charts and graphs on articles and the author center. (Privacy Policy)
    Google AdSense Host APIThis service allows you to sign up for or associate a Google AdSense account with HubPages, so that you can earn money from ads on your articles. No data is shared unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
    Google YouTubeSome articles have YouTube videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
    VimeoSome articles have Vimeo videos embedded in them. (Privacy Policy)
    PaypalThis is used for a registered author who enrolls in the HubPages Earnings program and requests to be paid via PayPal. No data is shared with Paypal unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
    Facebook LoginYou can use this to streamline signing up for, or signing in to your Hubpages account. No data is shared with Facebook unless you engage with this feature. (Privacy Policy)
    MavenThis supports the Maven widget and search functionality. (Privacy Policy)
    Marketing
    Google AdSenseThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Google DoubleClickGoogle provides ad serving technology and runs an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Index ExchangeThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    SovrnThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Facebook AdsThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Amazon Unified Ad MarketplaceThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    AppNexusThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    OpenxThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Rubicon ProjectThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    TripleLiftThis is an ad network. (Privacy Policy)
    Say MediaWe partner with Say Media to deliver ad campaigns on our sites. (Privacy Policy)
    Remarketing PixelsWe may use remarketing pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to advertise the HubPages Service to people that have visited our sites.
    Conversion Tracking PixelsWe may use conversion tracking pixels from advertising networks such as Google AdWords, Bing Ads, and Facebook in order to identify when an advertisement has successfully resulted in the desired action, such as signing up for the HubPages Service or publishing an article on the HubPages Service.
    Statistics
    Author Google AnalyticsThis is used to provide traffic data and reports to the authors of articles on the HubPages Service. (Privacy Policy)
    ComscoreComScore is a media measurement and analytics company providing marketing data and analytics to enterprises, media and advertising agencies, and publishers. Non-consent will result in ComScore only processing obfuscated personal data. (Privacy Policy)
    Amazon Tracking PixelSome articles display amazon products as part of the Amazon Affiliate program, this pixel provides traffic statistics for those products (Privacy Policy)
    ClickscoThis is a data management platform studying reader behavior (Privacy Policy)