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HubPro and Algorithms?

  1. janshares profile image87
    jansharesposted 2 years ago

    This may be way off base but is the HubPro fully active this weekend for the first time? Something really bazaar is going on with my hubscores since yesterday. They are decreasing significantly, even the high scores. I mean plummeting. I've never had several hubs decrease in scores at the same time. Traffic is the same so I don't think it's that. Is the HubPro possibly causing shifts, movements of the stautus quo? I thought this was significant enough to mention.

    1. Glimmer Twin Fan profile image96
      Glimmer Twin Fanposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I'm curious about this too.  I noticed this in the last couple of days that my overall average has dropped quite a few points.  I'll be interested to see the answer.

      1. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Same here, Glimmer. Average dropped several points within last few days.

    2. paradigmsearch profile image88
      paradigmsearchposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Odd things are indeed happening around here lately. So far, I like it. This is just a suspicion, but go edit your lowest scoring hub and see what happens to the hub score within 48 hours; worth a shot; trust me. smile

      1. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I edited a bunch, highs and lows, just to see what would happen. We'll see in a few days.

    3. sallybea profile image97
      sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I have noticed the same thing.  I edited several of my hubs tonight out of desperation and the result was discouraging especially when one puts so much effort in.    The odd thing is that my traffic is up!

      1. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Exactly, sallybea. Everything you said.

        1. Kathleen Odenthal profile image94
          Kathleen Odenthalposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Im in the same, confused, boat!

    4. The Examiner-1 profile image83
      The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Jan,
      They did not mention anything about traffic being stopped, I think that it was only that we were unable to use them. I also believe that they work on one Hub at a time. You should have received an email notice at least a week before it began to notify you of the work.
      If you think it is being done then try and use the Hub and see whether you are able to. That will tell you whether they are editing it or not. :-)

      1. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Hi Kevin, that's not exactly what I meant. I doubt that I'm being edited, I didn't get an email. I suspect that HubPro activity is shifting the site algorithm which is affecting the entire site. I could be totally wrong since they are supposedly doing only a very small amount at a time. But I think it's more than a coincidence that we are all experiencing the exact same thing.

        1. The Examiner-1 profile image83
          The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Jan,
          Do you mean that person A being edited is affecting persons B and C? I really doubt that. I have not noticed any changes nor effects on my (statistics) site or elsewhere, neither good nor bad.

          1. janshares profile image87
            jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Yes, Kevin, that's what I meant. I think it depends on which topic categories are being edited. But like I said, I could be off base.

            1. RockyMountainMom profile image91
              RockyMountainMomposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I have 11 hubs so far and they mostly all plumeted.  I know this doesn't compare to folks with months or years into their hubs that are apparently also experiencing this.

              But as for anecdotal support (since I finally found this thread), 7 of mine were fairly high scores, but now I have two that are pretty good.  Multiple hubs dropped ten points over night.  My hub of the day was one of  them.

              New and pretty bummed, after feeling like I had a pretty good start (I still do....but still don't like it).  I'm traveling and with family and not really in a good situation for editing---but will keep perusing this thread for suggestions and explanations.

    5. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Jan:

      I'm really glad you started this thread because I just sent an email to the team about this very issue. 

      My very best performing hub that has always been rated in the mid to high 90's has now dropped to an 87 despite the fact that views are up and it is earning good money .

      I really am sick and tired of all the game playing that goes on with this type of thing, and as I told the team in the email, these types of actions serve only to discourage morale and make people want to slow down or stop their writing.

      It is obvious from the other posts here that I am not the only one who is upset about this, and I sure hope the team reads this thread because they need to change what they are doing asap.

      There is no rhyme or reason why a really well written, informative post should drop in terms of its score!

      1. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        My best performers are surprisingly in the toilet for no apparant reason. Hopefully we'll get a reason soon, TIMETRAVELER2.

        1. Marisa Wright profile image93
          Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Jan, I do hope the team will make some comment, but the solution is to stop thinking of a low HubScore as being "in the toilet".

          Say after me, "HubScore is NOT a reflection of quality".

          This is what HubScore is made up of:

             - The quality of the Hub as measured through the Quality Assessment Process
             -  The amount of traffic the Hub receives
             -  The length of the Hub
              - The number of comments
              - A Hubber's overall Hubber Score

          1. janshares profile image87
            jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Ha ha, thanks, Marisa. I'm aware, just venting. big_smile Believe me, I know it's not my hubs. "In the toilet" was an exaggeration, lol. I really shouldn't complain when scores drop from 100s to low 90s but it's frustrating to see it happening across the board, where 70s are dropping to 60s, especially when I have my suspicions as to why. I hope it gets explained soon.

          2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
            TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Marisa:

            If this is true, then why is it that my highest performing hub that brings in good money and many views dropped 8 points in its hub score?

            Also, the hubber score generally reflects, among other things, the average of the hub scores...so, when the individual hub scores drop, so does the hubber score.

            This happened to me just this past week.

          3. PegCole17 profile image90
            PegCole17posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            My best performing hub which is featured and is an Editor's Choice,
            Receives the most daily traffic with over 34k views
            Is over 1500 words, with original photos
            Has over 175 comments
            And usually ranks between 100 to 96
            Dropped to 90 for unknown reasons today below five hubs which are not nearly as popular.

            "Hub score is not a reflection of quality".
            "Hub score is not a reflection of quality".
            "Hub score is not a reflection of quality".
            Ok, got it.

            1. janshares profile image87
              jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              It's amazing, PegCole, how so many of us have almost the exact same story. There is a connection, not a coincidence.

              1. Marisa Wright profile image93
                Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Jan, I agree there's obviously a common experience going on, which means something has been tweaked, but I don't see how that proves it has any connection with HubPro.

              2. PegCole17 profile image90
                PegCole17posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Hi Janshares, I believe there is a connection, and like others have said, perhaps, unrelated to the HubPro effort. Do you think there has been another Google tweak like the Panda thing?
                P

                1. janshares profile image87
                  jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Maybe that's what it is, not sure. I've never experienced the bad one that the vets talk about so I wouldn't really know. But I suspect this is a little different from that based on what I read.

                2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                  TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  A Google tweak would not affect hub scores.  It would affect views, and I have not seen anything to that effect, either good or bad.

            2. sallybea profile image97
              sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              On average I would say that across the board all my scores have dropped by about 8 percent and this includes 12 Editors Choice Hubs.  I think I am just going to sit it out and wait to see what happens now.

      2. ChristinS profile image93
        ChristinSposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I'm in the same boat - one hub is just baffling.  Most of my scores are same or have increased a bit, but this one hub that is shared constantly and gets a lot of views (8oo+ yesterday to be exact) dropped from a 99 to an 85.  Seriously?

        It's not like it's traffic from one source either - there are a few sites sending traffic to that hub Pinterest, FB and a couple of other sites directly related to the topic of the hub.  It is rather perplexing and there is no real rhyme or reason to it.  I don't think a 10+ point drop is justified, but I'm just not going to worry about it anymore.  If it is bringing me money and views to heck with the scores and trying to figure them out.

        1. OldRoses profile image83
          OldRosesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Half a dozen of my hubs suddenly have drastically lower scores yet traffic remains the same or higher.  This has negatively impacted my Hubber score in a big way.  I know that we are not supposed to stress about our Hubber scores, but mine was low to begin with because I refuse to follow HP guidelines and write overly wordy hubs with unnecessary polls, quizzes and videos.  I write what I like to read - short and to the point without a lot of fussiness.  Honestly, some of the hubs I'm seeing look like they were put together by middle schoolers.  All they are lacking is glitter and stickers.  And HP is rewarding them with high scores!

        2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Christin S:

          I disagree..hub scores play a part in your hubber score, and if that gets below 85, then Google interprets that as your hubs being of low quality, and the indexing changes.

          I think everybody should do as I have done and send an email to the team demanding an explanation.  They owe us that much, but if nobody cares enough to specifically contact them about this, unless they take a look at the several threads on here that deal with this subject, then they will think we all are OK with this change.

          I really do not like it.

          1. ChristinS profile image93
            ChristinSposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I don't like it either - I do wish they would be more up front about how their algo works, but at the same time, perhaps that would make it easier for people to game the system? I don't know what their logic is, but I'm quite sure they are aware that a lot of people are displeased by it.  I'm just not willing to agonize over it and I'll explain better why.

            A couple of years ago when the giant panda struck without warning - my primary website that I run that was earning up to 1,000 bucks per month in adsense revenue was struck down.  This was despite my site being 10 years old at the time, having high quality original evergreen content written by me, and me always playing by the "white hat" rules. I went from 900 to 1000 pretty consistently to 250.  Devastating.  Other sites that were in my niche that were lesser quality and spammy and not as old started to outrank me, as did one site which had stolen content from me.

              I'm certainly not going to spend too much time agonizing over these things when there is no reason, no explanation etc.  Instead I focus my energy in new ways - social media. It may be my bad attitude, but I can't force myself to give a rats behind about Google anymore.  If I rank, great. If I don't - I have other ways to get noticed.  I'll never put all my hopes on Google again - ever.  Lesson learned.

            Interestingly enough, since I gave up trying to appease them, my website has been climbing back up in Google's ranks the last few months. I'm getting a decent amount of organic traffic once again.  That's cool, but I'm sure not going to make the mistake of feeling secure in it. 

            My point being, there will never be a way to know algorithms and all that goes on "behind the curtain" for sure.  There is no definitive set of rules with this online writing thing and the rules seem to change a lot, as is evidenced by the many changes HP has made in recent years.  They themselves likely do not know how to appease the Google and are trying new programs routinely to see what sticks. Overall, I think HP works harder than most sites of its kind to improve quality and user experience.  I think they have the best shot and are the most dedicated to doing this long-term.  Overall, I commend them for their efforts and they have survived all the upheaval.

            Anyway, besides Google, I definitely advocate focusing on multiple ways to get traffic.  Running a specialized forum, doing Pinterest boards, FB groups or whatever. there are many ways to get noticed apart from Google.  I'd love to see HP focus more on these as well and I suspect they are, or will. Large websites like this have to work with the likes of the big G, but there are so many other neat ideas.  I hate to see Google take over the universe entirely smile.

    6. 0
      guyrichieposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Noticed that too. What could be the reason? Do they give scores on the hours you are online or active in the site?

    7. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I meant bizarre in original post. Ha haha ha. neutral

    8. mtndewlover profile image73
      mtndewloverposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      What is the score based on anyway?  I am ranking 60 through 70 most of the time and I have one that is 80 but it does not get as much traffic as one that is 76.

      1. Marisa Wright profile image93
        Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        If you read the Learning Center, you'll see HubScores are a combination of:

        - The quality of the Hub as measured through the Quality Assessment Process
           -  The amount of traffic the Hub receives
           -  The length of the Hub
            - The number of comments
            - A Hubber's overall Hubber Score.

    9. Buildreps profile image94
      Buildrepsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      janshares, I noticed this sudden drop of Hub scores about a week ago. I thought it was just a reshuffling of 'something' that caused this drop. The most strange thing is that my Hubber score went up from 91 to 93, while my average Hub scores dropped from 85 to 76. This cannot be caused by 'spamming' or something else for all of them.

      I use a Mediafire account as a reliable download link for documents, which seems to be a very successful concept to get documents to your audience, that now might be punished by Hubpages.

      I have a few evergreens among them that run quite well and it's a pity to look that only the high traffic articles score the best.

      As I understood well, is that traffic is 'squeezed' to Hubs that score beneath 75. I now have suddenly 8 Hubs beneath 75! Among them are my favourites, from which I deleted my best one and will republish somewhere else.

      Time to take fate in my own hands.

      1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
        Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Don't unpublish your hubs because of this, Buildreps. It's just an internal thing and will no doubt sort itself out. It makes no difference to the way your hubs are valued outside of HubPages.

      2. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Buildreps, you were correct about your guess that 'something' was being reschuffled. I'm glad that we have an answer now from Paul, albeit late. Many of us were jolted by this reshuffling, some were not. One of my best and favorite hubs was at 97 and is now at 80. But now that I know what it is, I can roll with it. The perspective your taking is a good one, that you will 'take fate into your own hands.' That will mean different things for different hubbers. My feeling now is to do nothing except go back and do what I was doing before: trying to write the best quality hubs I can and continue to make improvements to the rest.

        1. Buildreps profile image94
          Buildrepsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks janshares, I agree that good writing should be on top. But what suddenly bothers me that exactly this appears to be a malleable concept. And that is strange. Being subjected to an automated system that should stimulate me to write better is even more strange. I think even unbelievable.

        2. Sue Adams profile image92
          Sue Adamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Sorry Janshares, but this is a case in point. Spelling and grammar is number one to check.

          For example, "The perspective your taking" is plainly incorrect. It being an abbreviation of "The perspective you are taking", it should be: "The perspective you're taking".

          There are so many of these common errors lurking around on this site, no wonder a stringent approach is now required to achieve a more professional standard of authorship.

          I know I'm not making myself very popular by what I just wrote, but we must face facts.

          1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
            TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Sue Adams:

            So Janshares, one of the best writers on this site, makes one small mistake over probably 20 posts in this thread and you use HER as an example of what is wrong here and why we need more stringent rules?

            That's kind of harsh, don't you think?

            While I cannot argue with your basic premise, I do have concerns that even people who write correctly, etc. have been burned with this new rating system.

            Because you did some upgrades and brought your scores up, it does not mean that you have definitive answers about what is going on here.

            Please read my posts with Paul from last night that are on this thread to try to gain a better understanding of  what I am saying here.

            I have a BA in English and Spanish and an MA in teaching, and I got hit quite hard with this new grading system.  If I took a hit, that's a pretty bad sign for many others here, and it indicates to me that this system indeed needs some tweaking.

          2. janshares profile image87
            jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            No problem, Sue. I usually catch them, even on forums, and go back to correct. I missed that one. I am a stickler for spelling and grammar. Thank you.

  2. OldRoses profile image83
    OldRosesposted 2 years ago

    My scores have also been dropping while my traffic has actually been increasing and two of my hubs were suddenly unfeatured.  I'm not complaining.  I would just like to know why.

    1. OldRoses profile image83
      OldRosesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      And now one of those hubs has been re-featured!  Very strange.

      1. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Wow! What is going on?

        1. The Examiner-1 profile image83
          The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          They probably realized that they made an error.

    2. paradigmsearch profile image88
      paradigmsearchposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      What I suggested to Jan might solve your situation as well.

      Btw, my enthusiasm here is based on a big, fat hint by HP staff somewhere in the first half of the original HubPro thread. big_smile

  3. Jodah profile image86
    Jodahposted 2 years ago

    Jan, yes something is happening that's for sure. My hubber score didn't drop, but I went to my accounts page and saw that five of my hubs had been suddenly unfeatured. this was a shock as I had never had an unfeatured hub before, and five were unfeatured all at once. Well I revisited each one and updated them by adding videos or polls etc and now they are all featured again and as an added bonus my hubber score has gone up two points. I am looking at it as a positive and just a wake up call not to ignore your older hubs.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Jodah:

      i am constantly updating hubs, so while this may have worked for you, it does not explain my own situation.

    2. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Jodah, thanks for validating my suspicions as other have. I'm shocked to hear that hubs are being unfeatured as well. Keep the positive attitude.

  4. brakel2 profile image87
    brakel2posted 2 years ago via iphone

    I improved hubs and raised my hub score average by five points and raised hubber score by one point. Time Traveler is right. Keep improving older hubs.

  5. brakel2 profile image87
    brakel2posted 2 years ago via iphone

    Does anybody agree?  Are these weird happenings to get us to improve hubs?

    1. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I don't know, brakel1. Maybe that's the hint paradigmsearch was referring to above. I'll have to look at the HubPro forum and blog post again.

    2. Millionaire Tips profile image91
      Millionaire Tipsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I have a feeling that they changed the algorithm as a result of the complaints that editing hubs decreased the score.  Since editing is a good thing and something that should be encouraged instead of discouraged, it is quite likely that they changed the algorithm to be rewarding instead of neutral when someone edits a hub.  I haven't edited any hubs lately, so my scores haven't changed.

  6. Sue Adams profile image92
    Sue Adamsposted 2 years ago

    Yes, very weird things are happening indeed but in my case all positive. After reading an HP blog post about adapting layout for I phones and android tablets a few weeks ago I changed all pictures to full-width where ever pixel quality permitted. As a result all my hub scores went up, with nearly half of them scoring over 90, reaching an average of 87. Even better, my hubber-score too shot up from 90 to 98! I only have 59 hubs so making the changes wasn't too laborious.

    I don't quite agree with Marisa that hub-scores are not a reflection of quality. They are certainly a reflection of how well the "Need Some Goals" box is ticked and how we apply the hidden rules and demands of HP algorithms, which according to Marisa comprise elements from:

    - The quality of the Hub as measured through the Quality Assessment Process
       -  The amount of traffic the Hub receives
       -  The length of the Hub
        - The number of comments
        - A Hubber's overall Hubber Score.

    Although I think that the latter, a Hubber's overall Hubber score is a result of all the former, not a part of it.
    From my experience, I would add to the list:
        - How recently has a hub been edited - how "fresh" it is.

    Another thing I notice is that every time my hub with the most traffic (4/5 figs per day) loses traffic in its superior wave, its hub-score goes down considerably even though its traffic surpasses all other hubs by an enormous margin. This shows that hub-individual declining traffic lowers hub-score relative to what it was before, not relative to amount of traffic compared to other hubs.

    My conclusion:
    Something has changed in the algo world but I don't think these changes have anything to do with hub-pro as I have not been approached for editing.

    1. sallybea profile image97
      sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I had my total score go below the de-index score yesterday, first time ever and this morning it happened once again in less than two minutes.  So now what!  Give up writing!

      1. Suzanne Day profile image98
        Suzanne Dayposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        That is scary. Maybe try making a couple of pictures wider like Sue Adams suggested and see if it pushes it over the line again?

      2. Millionaire Tips profile image91
        Millionaire Tipsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Your score is 94, and it is fine.  It may have been due to publishing two hubs so close to each other. Once the hubs were rated, and the algorithm realized you were not a spammer, the score must have gone back up

    2. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks for sharing your experience, Sue. It's hopeful that you have found a way around whatever is happening. As you said, it's obvious the algo has changed. I had already enlarged the first images in hubs some time ago when the talk about mobile started. So do I need to enlarge all of them? This would take a lot of reformatting. At this point I may just wait to see what happens and see how this is addressed by staff.

      1. Sue Adams profile image92
        Sue Adamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Yes, I made all pictures full-width except those that were too pixelated and made all ads also full width.

    3. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Those criteria come from a post by Simone, who (as you may remember) was unusually honest and open about how things worked on HubPages.  So although it's possible freshness has been included since, it certainly wasn't in the mix then. 

      I also thought it was strange that the Hubber's Hubber Score would have any influence on HubScore, because it seems to set up a circular loop - but Simone generally knew what she was talking about. 



      Interesting, that makes sense of some strange behaviour frequently observed in the past, where higher traffic Hubs could wind up with a lower score than a lower traffic Hub.

      1. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I miss Simone's candid expertise, Marisa.

  7. Sue Adams profile image92
    Sue Adamsposted 2 years ago

    Millionaire Tips has answered the question:
    "..likely that they changed the algorithm to be rewarding instead of neutral when someone edits a hub."

  8. janshares profile image87
    jansharesposted 2 years ago

    I edited a few yesterday to test that theory. It didn't make a difference, or hasn't yet. Within about 36 hours, I've gone from 33 hubs in the 100s and 90s to 18. Several hubs have had 2-digit falls in scores. I didn't think they needed that much editing. Anyway, I'm going to wait this out and continue working on a new hub that's taking a lot of time.
    Edit (no pun intended): I keep all of my hubs updated within 2 to 3 months of current date.

    1. sallybea profile image97
      sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Went out to work today and came back to discover that in one week my average score has now  gone down a total of  7 points, four of those points, in two days - in spite of editing etc., now,  that really is the limit.

      1. janshares profile image87
        jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        5 points in less than 24 hrs.

        1. sallybea profile image97
          sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Yes, I am afraid so - not exactly a confidence booster.

    2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Here's something interesting:

      Today I edited my 7 lowest scoring hubs.  Of those 7, four had hub scores that rose up approximately 1 point each which took them to the next level, but views went up significantly!

      Tonight, low scores that were not there this morning showed up to replace those I had edited in order to raise them!

      This is driving me crazy!

      1. Marisa Wright profile image93
        Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Why?   Surely you've been here long enough to know that HubScores are best ignored?

        1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
          Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          But they're still distracting.

          To be honest, I think the whole system's gone haywire. Two of my newest hubs that were in the 90s have dropped to the 60s during the course of the evening.

      2. Jayne Lancer profile image90
        Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I wouldn't be surprised if this new scoring system is a ploy to encourage us to edit our hubs. Remember--we were saying last week that we were afraid to edit our hubs, because it was causing scores to drop. Now not editing is causing scores to drop.

        1. OldRoses profile image83
          OldRosesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Oh, I hope not.  My hubs that dropped the lowest are not the ones that I want to edit.  They are fairly new.  It's my old ones that I want to work on first.

          1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
            Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            My situation exactly, OldRoses.

  9. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image94
    Wesman Todd Shawposted 2 years ago

    A lot of my scores have gone up a nice lot too.  Of course we like to see something we published with a nice high score on it, who wouldn't? 

    As usual, you can count on Marissa to be right about the scores though; and most anything else she says.  Me, I'm trying to make $$$$$$

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Seems to me that if the team is going to change the algorithm, they should have told us.

      Also, there is a problem with making photos and ads wide screen, which is they make load time longer and are likely to keep readers leaving before they read.

      Also, wide screen photos in the middle of hubs interrupts the flow of reading.

      Furthermore, when the first photo is wide screen, it takes up advertising space.

      Finally,  if you do a mobile preview of a hub with side photos you will see that on a mobile device, they come up wide screen.

      I wish raising the points was as easy as simply widening photos, but I fear doing this will cause other problems.

      1. Wesman Todd Shaw profile image94
        Wesman Todd Shawposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I believe you, but I've experienced none of that.  Page load time is very very important to Google though, and I'm beyond certain the staff here knows that very very well.  Page load time is one of the reasons I'm writing more here now instead of InfoBarrel....where it takes far too long for pages to load, and some of the best things I ever did create aren't getting much traffic....probably due to slow page loading and the related low page rank for it all.

  10. rebekahELLE profile image91
    rebekahELLEposted 2 years ago

    I doubt if this has anything to do with HubPro, although it may have something to do with changes in the algorithim.  We don't know.  But as far as I understand the various factors in calculating a hub score, quality would be an overall combination of what's written in the Learning Center about Hub scores. 
    The first line in the section states: HubScores exist as a measure of quality and activity on HubPages.

    It goes on to say:
    What makes a HubScore change?

    HubScores are based on a wide range of different factors, including the amount of traffic your Hub gets, your reputation in the community, reader response to your Hubs (e.g. voting them up or down, leaving comments, sharing Hubs in the Feed, and leaving Hubber feedback), and the uniqueness of your content. With this being the case, getting more traffic to your Hubs over time will certainly improve your HubScore, but keep in mind that the quality of your traffic will also influence the metric (if a higher percentage of your traffic comes from reputable sources, you'll see a more positive effect on your HubScore).  you won't have an official HubScore until your Hub is evaluated for quality. If your Hub becomes Featured, then the score may rise as readers engage with it.
    I included what it says because I thing including the link doesn't always work. Hubbers think we know what it says.  The QAP is part of a hub score calculation, but not the only factor according to the LC entry., which includes:

        The quality of the Hub as measured through the Quality Assessment Process, which human ratings provided through the Hub Hopper
        The amount of traffic the Hub receives, including traffic from HubPages as well as other outside sources
        The length of the Hub
        The uniqueness of the content within the Hub (copied content typically scores lower than more unique content)
        The number of comments the Hub receives
        A Hubber's overall Hubber Score


    It could be a metric has changed or any one of these factors causing changes we see in our scores, (which no one else can see, btw.)  Sorry for such a long post, but perhaps it helps to see exactly what the LC says.

  11. rebekahELLE profile image91
    rebekahELLEposted 2 years ago

    I want to add that it states that; The uniqueness of the content within the Hub (copied content typically scores lower than more unique content) 
    After reading this more carefully, it seems to make a distinction between unique and copied, as through research we do for a hub.  Do some of our hubs contain more of this 'copied' type content rather than our own unique style of writing?  I think HP is starting to look for more unique writing, rather than content that can be found all over the web.  A few of mine that are rising are more in the unique category.

    1. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks for posting the criteria, rebekahELLE. I still think it's strange what is happening across entire subdomains and the entire site, simultaneously. If an algo change had been announced like HubPro was announced, I would have just rolled with it, understood why this is happening, and not have bothered to post this thread. I just didn't expect such drastic changes in scores within days of a major announcement about a new editing program.

      I know I'm not being edited because I didn't receive an email. But I still suspect (until staff says other wise) that the algorithm was changed to accomodate new editing standards of the HubPro. So even if we are not being edited, edited hubs are rearranging the scores and ranks of all hubs on the site. I could be totally wrong but just sayin' . . .

  12. LuisEGonzalez profile image81
    LuisEGonzalezposted 2 years ago

    Well I do not know if something is happening but my best hub (and the three right behind it) have all dropped 12-14 (average of 89 to 77) points and some of the lowest performance hubs (72-78) are now on top plus my profile score rose by about 4 points. NOTE: no edits were done to any of the hubs in question.

    1. paradigmsearch profile image88
      paradigmsearchposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Sort by Changed Date and see if there is a hub score pattern. I'm curios to know if there is. I'd do it with mine, but all of them have been updated one way or another in the last few months. smile

  13. relache profile image88
    relacheposted 2 years ago

    HubPro is about human editing, not algorithms.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      relache:

      So what is it that you think is causing all of the changes in hub and hubber scores?

      Why would so many previously good scores drop so widely across the spectrum of writers?

      What would you suggest we do to change this?

      Obviously a lot of people here are upset and confused by all of this.

    2. sallybea profile image97
      sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Ha - This human has been doing some of her own editing, all for the good I hope.

      I think my question now is - does one actually get notified individually as your Hubs are edited? 
      For some of us, I am imagine it will take years before this happens - with so many hubs and so many new ones being uploaded every day, it has to be a mammoth task for just a few humans.

      1. Millionaire Tips profile image91
        Millionaire Tipsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        My understanding from what I have read is that you will be notified before they start editing your hubs. They will tell you which ones they will work on, and the hub is  locked so you can't make any changes while they are working on it.

        They are focusing on the hubs with the highest traffic. Since more people read those, fixing them will help more people think of HubPages as a quality site. I doubt they will ever want to get to the hubs that are not featured.

        1. sallybea profile image97
          sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks that is very good to know   All of my hubs fortunately were featured on publication and to-date they have remained that way.   Perhaps my turn will come up one day then.

    3. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Aware and noted, relache, thanks.

  14. Glenn Stok profile image99
    Glenn Stokposted 2 years ago

    A few of my hubs also had reduced hub scores lately.  I guess I'm lucky that they are at least all still featured.  But I doubt the reduced scores have anything to do with HubPro.  I don't see how that could be affecting other hubs, just because they are editing a few of the best performing hubs.

    As relache said, HubPro is not done by algorithms. But hub scores are. So if I were to venture a guess, I'd say that HP changed the algorithm for calculating hub scores.

    1. sallybea profile image97
      sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Dropped another point on my overall hub score but I have quite a few more red arrows so what is up?

    2. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Got it, Glenn. But I would still love for someone to address the timing, the coincidence, and the lack of an announcement for something that impacts so many of us significantly.

  15. Jayne Lancer profile image90
    Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago

    I can't make head or tail of the shifts in my hub scores. They're all over the place. One hub that had 100 yesterday has 90 today. Another that had 100 now has 92. The one that suddenly dropped eight points after editing last week (that I've mentioned in other threads) has dropped yet another point. Hubs that get very little traffic are in the 70s and upper 90s, while hubs that get a lot of or reasonable traffic are in the eighties and lower nineties.

    I've been comparing quality and traffic to try to make sense of it all, but am at a complete loss.

    1. brakel2 profile image87
      brakel2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe something broke on this weekend, and no one is there to fix it.

      1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
        Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I don't think so, because this all started a few days ago, but who knows?

        My scores are more or less back to what they were in February, when I returned to HubPages after a three year absence and republished all my hubs in an unrevised state.

    2. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hopefully, we'll all understand soon, Jayne.

  16. OldRoses profile image83
    OldRosesposted 2 years ago

    One of my hubs has dropped to a score of 59.  I have never had a hub score lower than 68 prior to now.  This is insane!

    1. sallybea profile image97
      sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Overall hub score dropped another point a few moments again - I think it would be nice to have an explanation from the HubPages Team now - nine points in less than a week seems a bit drastic to me.  My concern is now that my hubs will all be de-indexed now.

  17. LeanMan profile image80
    LeanManposted 2 years ago

    Hubscores have definitely had some sort of a change as mine have changed dramatically. Although mine have jumped upwards rather than downwards as some have seen.

    Not that I care! The important thing is how google views them not the HP algorithm.

    1. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Hi LeanMan. I always appreciate your insights. Traffic seems to have increased for most of us which implies Google is not phased by what's happening and continues to send us searchers. So that makes me think this drastic change is more internal than external. Please share your expertise.

  18. Kathleen Odenthal profile image94
    Kathleen Odenthalposted 2 years ago

    This is very disheartening. I have experienced the same thing, seeing a drop of at least five points on most of my hubs, and a drop as high as ten points on some. Seeing who is experiencing this as well is not helping, as some of you are who I consider to be the strongest writers on the site. I hope we get an explanation for this soon.

  19. Paul Edmondson profile image
    91
    Paul Edmondsonposted 2 years ago

    Thanks for the discussion on HubScore.  We will keep working to make HS a better, more accurate measure of quality. 

    In general, edit Hubs to make them better.  It can cause a fluctuation in HS, but if you are improving your Hub, you're doing the right thing.  It's important to take a long term view to making Hubs better.  HS will reflect that over time.

    There hasn't been a change to HubScore right before the weekend.  We also haven't started HubPro.  So the fluctuations we all see are normal.

    There may have been a Panda update the 8th or 9th of August.  Traffic site wide was a hair up - although there are commonly fluctuations between subdomains.

    1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
      Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      With all due respect, the fluctuations I've been experiencing are very far from normal!

      My traffic is very good, too, so I haven't been hit by Panda.

      1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Paul Edmonson:

        How can you say that these fluctuations are normal when so many people are seeing such wide swings from what they have been experiencing in the past.

        I cannot see how a Panda hit would affect hub scores anyhow...page views, yes...but hub scores?

        More than 1/3 of my 135 articles have dropped into the low 70's or high 60's, which has never happened before, and this cannot be due to a lack of editing, because I spend a great deal of time editing almost every day.

        I suggest that the team take a closer look at the technical side of this issue because my gut feeling is that this is some kind of a computer glitch if, in fact, it is not something the team has done on purpose.

        You have a lot of unhappy writers right now, and I feel this is bad for morale as well as for productivity.

        Please have your team check out your hub score algorithms asap because what is going on sure seems to be very far from normal.

      2. sallybea profile image97
        sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Has this really all happened because of the  Google Analytics account upgrade?
        As others have said,  Hubs are edited regularly, traffic is up but Hub Scores are right down 8 - 9%. across the board.
        This is the most demoralizing situation I have experienced here.  Even brand new hubs have not moved from the bottom of the pile, in spite of having receiving good views and comments.

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Sallybea:

          You are spot on with this comment. 

          The whole thing is ridiculous and also insulting to the hard working, good writers here like yourself.

    2. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks for responding, Paul. You've cleared up half of my question, that this is not due to Hubpro. But, as Jayne said, what we're experiencing doesn't feel normal. Our traffic is fine which is usually affected by a Panda update. So, although I appreciate your reply, I still don't understand. You say fluctuations are to be expected when editing but these sharp fluctuations started out of the blue with no editing.

      When you say "There hasn't been a change to Hubscore right before the weekend," do you mean algorithms that determine hubscores? Because this was the issue in question.

      I edit and update my hubs regularly so I'm aware of the value of such. I'm also used to a hubscore fluctuating a bit when I do this. So this is not what I'm talking about. This was different. If it was something else, we'd sure like to know what it is. Thanks, Paul.

    3. Jodah profile image86
      Jodahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Paul, thanks for your comment but apart from all the weird fluctuations I have seen over the weekend, today I find one of my best scoring hubs has suddenly dropped from 80s to just 60... Now along with at least six others. I have never had any below 65 before. Something definitely has changed.

      1. Kathleen Odenthal profile image94
        Kathleen Odenthalposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I completely agree with you Jodah and its very disconcerting.

    4. Kathleen Odenthal profile image94
      Kathleen Odenthalposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I dont think this helps any of us. I, like many people on here, have seen an increase in traffic and a PLUMMET in hub scores. Panda doesnt explain this.

    5. Solaras profile image92
      Solarasposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      What???

    6. RockyMountainMom profile image91
      RockyMountainMomposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Gosh, in this situation, calling these over night declines "normal" makes it harder for me to evaluate the purpose/value of having hubs scored at all---given the number of long term writers stating repeatedly not to worry because the scores are meaningless, paired with this type of plummet described as normal.

      The use of that  word is also disconcerting given the number of high ranking hubbers (with great hubs and insightful activity on forums) that are alarmed.

      I mean no disrespect, but being in my second month here, I was finding the scores to be relatively useful and quite motivating.

      Being fairly "type A" I think I would probably need to completely disregard scores in order not to care about them tanking overnight.  This would negate their value for me, and seems like it negates their usefulness to the site (particularly given that the Type A's are most likely to care in the first place).

      1. Marisa Wright profile image93
        Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        The score situation is easily explained.   A while ago, there was a very productive and illuminating discussion on scores on the forums, led by two HubPages staffers, Simone and Derek.  Both admitted the scores were imperfect and confusing and shouldn't be relied on as a measure of anything.   They said that HubPages was reluctant to remove them until they were able to come up with something better.

        Those two staffers are no longer with the company and Paul Edmonson (the founder) subsequently came on the forums to say he thinks the scores are wonderful.  Funnily enough, no staff member has ever criticised them again.

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Marissa Wright:

          I remember seeing that discussion, but apparently someone "up above" has decided that those scores do mean something.

          Exactly what, however, I do not know lol!

          1. Marisa Wright profile image93
            Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            The "someone up above" was Paul Edmonson.   I recall seeing his post where he came out in defence of the scores.  I'm guessing (since he's the founder of the site) that they were his baby right at the start so he's attached to them!

            1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
              TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Marisa Wright:

              This is a perfect example of the type of decision making that made 200,000 writers leave this site over the past few years.

              It is nice that Paul is attached to his "baby", but he should be enough of a businessman to understand that you don't "poop in your mess kit", so to speak!

              1. Marisa Wright profile image93
                Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this
                1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                  TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  I can't believe you found it!  Good job!

                  1. Marisa Wright profile image93
                    Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    That's not the best one - there's another one where Derek weighed in and it was discussed in a lot more detail.  Can't find it anywhere.

    7. sallybea profile image97
      sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Forgive me Paul but can you explain a nine percent drop in overall scores - total score is now below the recommended 85.  I had twenty five hubs in the high nineties for more than a year and I now have only four.  I have thirteen Editors Choice hubs - the most recent a few days ago, reward with a score of 70 - it has not moved from the bottom of the pile since it was  published. 
      This is really demotivating for everyone.  With due respect it makes me question why I care so much about this site when the rewards are so clearly not there.

  20. psycheskinner profile image80
    psycheskinnerposted 2 years ago

    Something system wide went on as a lot of people like me with very stable scores saw an increase or decrease.  If it was not Hubpage's calculation that changed I struggle to see how it was Panda. I am not sure how Panda could affect hub scores without affecting traffic in a noticeable way.

    It is all very odd, and long term users like us do tend to know the difference between normal fluctuations and a shift in the force.

  21. Kathleen Odenthal profile image94
    Kathleen Odenthalposted 2 years ago

    I also want to throw in a thank you to Jan for starting this whole thread and allowing us to all see that this is an issue we are all experiencing. Hopefully something will change for the better, SOON!

    1. RockyMountainMom profile image91
      RockyMountainMomposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I second that.

  22. Jayne Lancer profile image90
    Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago

    This seems like a feasible explanation for the changes: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/123670#post2619074

  23. LeanMan profile image80
    LeanManposted 2 years ago

    If this is normal fluctuation for my hubscores then I am a monkey's uncle.... Hubs that were scored in the 70s,80s and have been for a very long time are now in the 90s - not complaining lol....

    My average hubscore has gone up by 4 points.. My traffic is down a little if anything from the last time I took any notice of hubscores...

    But the scores have no effect on my google traffic so I am not that bothered...

  24. ChristinS profile image93
    ChristinSposted 2 years ago

    I know we're not really supposed to post links, but I have seen forums talking about some Google algo updates on the 8th that Paul mentioned.  Perhaps this explains a few of the unusual things from over the weekend and HP's algorithms are adjusting to what the big G is doing.
    http://www.seroundtable.com/google-upda … 18980.html

    1. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thank you very much, ChristinS. This may partially explain what's been happening the last few days. However, the forum posts at that site are as mixed as the posts we have in the HP forums regarding the different experiences. One thing that stood out is the number of posters who stated that organic traffic went up, just as many of us have experienced here. I'm not familiar at all with the lingo so I may have missed a lot of the discussion. But for the most part, I think I pulled from this link that something is going on with Google, as Paul Edmondson indicated.

      1. Jodah profile image86
        Jodahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I checked that link too, but couldn't understand the lingo. It appears something is happening but who knows what?

        1. ChristinS profile image93
          ChristinSposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Which was kind of my point in my earlier post about Google and when I stopped trying to appease them.  Even the "experts" are merely guessing.  There is precious little transparency in how Google does things.  Suffice it to say there is enough "chatter" to indicate that Google is doing its own algorithm updates again, and this one was a larger one than usual. This in turn has an effect on other sites.  - "What" that is specifically is left to speculation as it always is.  Do you get tired of playing this game? I sure do, which is why I focus on other things besides Google now.

          1. janshares profile image87
            jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            I see your point, ChristinS, which is why I'm trying to let it go for now and finish up my current hub. But I must admit, I'm leery about publishing it until whatever is happening stabilizes. It has never taken me so long to write a hub, dragging my feet.

  25. relache profile image88
    relacheposted 2 years ago

    This is the last few weeks before "end of summer" or " back to school" in the USA.  This time of the year always sees bigger fluctuations in traffic due to people cramming in the last of their big vacation or summer activities.

    Also, for those of you trying to science your way to some sort of clear answer:  making lots of changes while other things are randomly changing is not a recommended methodology under the scientific method so you may find getting accurate data from your experiments more difficult.

    1. OldRoses profile image83
      OldRosesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Thanks, Relache.  I'm going to ignore my (falling) hub scores and stick to my program of refreshing my oldest hubs first, rather than panicking and working on my hubs with the lowest scores first.  I have a few seasonal hubs that I will refresh also as those seasons approach.

      1. OldRoses profile image83
        OldRosesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I've been reviewing my hubs for fall.  I took an old one that wasn't featured (lack of engagement), gave it a search friendly title, changed the summary to make it more search friendly, properly attributed the photo (one of my own), changed some wording in the text as well as adding a link in the text and added a capsule with links to similar hubs.  Result?  It went from not featured with a score of 65 to featured with a score of 64.

    2. Jayne Lancer profile image90
      Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I absolutely agree with the second part of your comment, but I'm not quite sure what to make of the first. This conversation is concerned with hub scores rather than traffic. The hub score fluctuations we're experiencing are just downright abnormal by any measure, and you won't be able to convince an observant hubber otherwise. Have you got the wrong end of the stick, or are you seriously trying to tell us that our abnormal hub score fluctuations are a figment of our imaginations?

    3. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      relache:

      I do not think this discussion centers around traffic.  It is more about the huge changes in hub scores that have been going on recently.

  26. Kathleen Odenthal profile image94
    Kathleen Odenthalposted 2 years ago

    That is very strange oldroses, but thanks for letting us know what happened! Sure seems like there is no way to predict hub scores

    1. OldRoses profile image83
      OldRosesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I'm puzzled why if I "improved" the hub as we are encouraged to do, that the score went down rather than up.

  27. Paul Edmondson profile image
    91
    Paul Edmondsonposted 2 years ago

    I'm sorry, but it looks like a change we rolled out in late July spread to HubScores gradually over the last few weeks.  That's what most of you are noticing.  My apology for not reporting it more accurately. 

    We had to go back a few weeks to see what's been improved.   Maybe not as nerve racking as unexplainable Google changes, but I get how frustrating it can be to see changes in HubScore and not know why.

    Here are a few things that have rolled out in the last month.

    - We are penalizing spam more heavily
    - Boosts for how we measure reader happiness
    - Improvements to our auto rater that feeds into HubScore (more accurate now)

    Several pieces of data get merged.  For people that just want the basics to getting a good score.

    - Write original content
    - Create media rich Hubs
    - Spellcheck, Spellcheck, Spellcheck
    - Fix grammar mistakes
    - Link to reputable sites
    - Use product capsules in a highly contextual manner

    Next week, there will be another tweak or two to HubScore.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Paul:

      I appreciate the fact that you are sharing this information, but I really would like a more detailed explanation, especially for the first three items you mentioned.

      I do not understand what you mean about Spam or boosting reader happiness, for example.  Those are very vague terms to me.

      If you "tweaked" your means of scoring hubs, exactly what changes did you make?

      The generalized list at the bottom that you give is more clear, but for people like me, it leaves questions.

      I do not have grammar and spelling errors for example...after all, I was an English teacher!

      I might have a typo here and there, but I check often for those.

      A more detailed explanation would be greatly appreciated, and I think it would help greatly to calm some upset writers here.

      1. sallybea profile image97
        sallybeaposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        i never spam, I use a spell and grammar checker in word before I post a Hub.  If  HubPages award Editors Choice Hubs with a measly score of 72 - heaven help the rest.  I can't wait for our Hubs to be Edited by HubPages Editors.  We should really get a boost in Hub Scores when that happens.
        There should be no reason whatsoever for any of us ever to feel worried ever again. I for one can't wait.

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Would someone explain to me what we are discussing when we are calling something "spam".

          Are we spamming when we do a product review, for example?
          Are we spamming when we create an article that basically is an Amazon sales article?

          I would really like to know the answer to this one.

          1. Paul Edmondson profile image
            91
            Paul Edmondsonposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Oh my, this is a great debate.  What is spam? I probably can't do this justice.  It's just way too nuanced. 

            They need to be placed highly contextually.  A good product Hub is adding a single Amazon listing and doing a deep review in the Hub.  You start hitting the spam mark with tangentially related products (Apple Pie Recipe, Buy this $300 Mixer).  You are likely spam if you are placing products looking for fortuitous sales (Apple Pie Recipe, Buy Iphone).   

            True story.  A Hubber wrote a thoughtful piece about a stressful family situation.  In the Hub she added a list of Amazon products to help you relax.  That subdomain had a manual spam action placed on it and it took months (maybe over a year) to get the penalty removed.

            1. PegCole17 profile image90
              PegCole17posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I think Paul gave us an enormous clue here about product placement and related ads. I'm going in and revising some of my Amazon ads. It can't hurt my Amazon revenue since I've received about 10 cents in 4 years from them.

            2. The Examiner-1 profile image83
              The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

              Paul,
              So in the short version, reviewing a product is talking about what is right/wrong with it. Spamming is taking the same product and trying to sell it.

    2. Jayne Lancer profile image90
      Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      So now I can make even less sense of my hub scores.

      Let's have look:

      Spam--none at all in any of my hubs.

      Reader happiness--according to GA, view duration is good, or do I misunderstand something?

      Auto rater--not really sure what that might be or how it might work.

      Original Content--all of my hubs are original, all based on extensive research and my own, first hand experience.

      Media rich--I admit that I'm perhaps a little weak on this score, but I don't want to use videos etc. just for the sake of it.

      Grammar mistakes--not that I know of (perhaps in the eight hubs I published four years ago that I haven't yet revised, but these are now scoring very well, funnily enough, which I find somewhat disturbing).

      Spelling--I'm pretty good at spelling, but use my Word spell checker nevertheless, as well as the one provided by HubPages. I even use US spelling to suit HubPages and our primarily US audience, in spite of being British.

      Links--I have none (I decided it was safer that way).

      Product capsules--very few, but always used in a very contextual manner if and when.

      So why are most of my hub scores now in the 60s, 70s, and 80s instead of in the 90 to 100 range as they were last week?

      1. The Examiner-1 profile image83
        The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I can comment on one thing, Auto Rater is probably at their end to rate the scores, (etc.).

  28. Paul Edmondson profile image
    91
    Paul Edmondsonposted 2 years ago

    @Timetraveler  My goal for HubScore has always been a way to show what is high quality.  Sort of like an editor, but maybe more analogous to eBay reputation.

    Our hope is if you follow the basic guidelines, you'll get good scores like you have.  94 is excellent.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Paul:

      94 is my Hubber score, not my hub score.

      My overall hub score was around 82 up until a week ago.  Now it is 76.

      However, there were numerous articles within those numbers that ranked well into the 90s and none that went below the mid 70's.

      Personally, I feel that my main niche, which is based on 50 years of personal experience and is original by all reasonable measures, certainly deserves a better score than 77.

      That is nowhere near the 94 I have as a hubber score, which I feel is more in keeping not only with the quality and substance of my work, but also with my participation on this site.

      And by the way, my hubber score was 96 and has gone as  high as 100 before all of this happened. 

      What this brings to mind is giving a student an A on a test, and then because I decide to change my grading system,  that grade turns into a C...even though the student has done nothing different.

      He basically is told he has gone from being outstanding to being average.  If I had done that when I was teaching school...well...you can imagine the howls of outrage I would have heard from parents.

      This is exactly what your system is doing to your writers, and is the very reason you are hearing that howling.

      I know your intent is good, and I know why you tweak your system.

      I have always been happy to see the team doing whatever they can to improve the quality of the work here, and I do believe that this is what kept this site from going under during the period when things got so bad awhile back.

      However, I feel the team should try to strike a fair balance so that the search for quality does not become so demanding that it discourages people who are really trying to do well to the point that they either stop writing or simply quit.

      From what I have seen, you have, for the most part, an outstanding group of creative, talented, caring and hard working writers here.

      Hub scores may not affect income or readership, but they do affect ego and emotions.

      When you do your upcoming tweaks on those hub scores, I hope you will bear this in mind.

  29. Paul Edmondson profile image
    91
    Paul Edmondsonposted 2 years ago

    @jayne Lancer, the fluctuation you saw was caused by this data flowing in to HubScore over the last few weeks. We process hubs data over time because there are so many hubs. Hope that helps

    1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
      Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      So what can I now expect? That my scores will remain as they are, or that they will realign?

      But I think the real problem is, Paul, that hub score comprises too many factors to be discernible. Just look at how many factors you've listed in your above post. Couldn't you at least consider splitting these factors, even if it means having more than one score?

  30. janshares profile image87
    jansharesposted 2 years ago

    Paul, thank you for confirming that there was (and is) something very specific going on regarding hubscores and that I'm not a crazy conspiracy theorist for posting this thread. I'm not sure now if I should be relieved or mad. I have mixed feelings. Out of respect, however, I will let it go because I do believe that you are dedicated to making the site better. Thank you for letting us know about the changes made to hubscore calculations. Apology accepted. Peace.

  31. Paul Edmondson profile image
    91
    Paul Edmondsonposted 2 years ago

    @Timetraveler2 I hear your point about getting a grade and seeing it change.  I had a similar situation in college that still kind of pisses me off. 

    I know it won't make you feel better, but HubScores are not set in stone.  They can change.  Instead of a final grade think of them like a Fico score or something that can go up and down. 

    The data we started updated a few weeks ago sort of re-calibrated things.  It will always fluctuate, but it shouldn't be as much as what you have seen over the last few weeks.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Paul:

      I sure hope not!

      I also hope those scores will readjust back to relatively normal levels again at some point.

      If you had that experience in college, you now understand how your writers are feeling lol!

      Thanks for your input on this.

  32. LeslieAdrienne profile image81
    LeslieAdrienneposted 2 years ago

    I am glad that HubScores are not a determining factor in readership.. I wouldn't worry too much about it....

  33. Jayne Lancer profile image90
    Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago

    My scores have fallen even further overnight. I could weep when I see my accounts page. I really do not want to have to look at these scores!

  34. weezyschannel profile image86
    weezyschannelposted 2 years ago via iphone

    Welcome to the club! I was at 96 four days ago now I'm at 88. Very very discouraging as a writer

  35. Millionaire Tips profile image91
    Millionaire Tipsposted 2 years ago

    I think a rating system will always be necessary on this site, to keep low quality hubs and spam off of Google's radar, and to provide more linking to the good quality hubs.  I am really glad that we are able to see the scores, so that we can know how we stand in HubPages eyes.

    It also helps when there is a change in algorithm, such as this.

    Paul said to think of the score like a FICO score, but generally when the FICO score goes down, it means I have done something wrong.  In this case, people's scores have changed without a corresponding change in the quality of the hubs.  Hopefully, once the algorithm changes have been implemented (how many more are there? when will they end?), we will be better able to take a look at where we stand then.

    1. Jodah profile image86
      Jodahposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I have just had more hubs drop in score. I have 144 hubs, now 80 of which are scored under 70. Crazy stuff. A week ago I only had about 10 under 70.

      1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Jodah:

        Last night Paul Edmonson posted a very important response on the following link.  Scroll towards the bottom to find it and to check out my discussion with him.

        It may make you feel a bit better about things!
        http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/123705

        1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Jodah:

          I have a question for you:

          Are the majority of your score drops for poetry?

          I'd be interested to know if this is the case because it is possible that the team is downgrading fiction due to the fact that it does not necessarily meet Google's requirements for searchable, money making posts.

        2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
          TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Jodah:


          oops... I meant scroll up on THIS forum post.  Sorry

    2. Jayne Lancer profile image90
      Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      I'd also be really glad to see the scores, but only if they actually told me something more than bad, average, good. I want to know why my hubs score as they do.

      As I've said before, I believe a better idea would be to list hubs on the statistics page in order of traffic--that with the most traffic being number one, and, therefore, the most successful.  It could then be set up in such a way that when the cursor hovers over a hub title, a list of scores for that hub pops up that show how the hub can be improved. From these scores, overall hub scores could be calculated. Wouldn't something like that be more helpful than the present system?

      1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Jayne:

        You can arrange your stats page to show page views from greatest to smallest simply by clicking the "ever" button for the total, or the "1 day" button for the daily tally if you want to see which hubs are performing the best and in the order of performance.

        1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
          Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          True. I meant by default, but that wouldn't be necessary, either, if hub score was kept, anyway. My main point is that we should be able to understand why our hubs score as they do, in order that we can improve them. What's the use of the score otherwise?

        2. Millionaire Tips profile image91
          Millionaire Tipsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Since we aren't supposed to be focusing on the scores, I think the default sort should be one of the traffic statistics.

    3. Marisa Wright profile image93
      Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      The HubPages' rating system does NOT keep low quality Hubs and spam off Google's radar.  Google doesn't even know it exists. 

      The ONLY thing which keeps Hubs off Google's radar is when a Hub is unFeatured, and that has nothing to do with HubScore.

      1. Millionaire Tips profile image91
        Millionaire Tipsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        You don't think they use the Hubscore to decide what not to feature? I think it has a lot to do with low quality unfeaturing.

        1. Buildreps profile image94
          Buildrepsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I bet Hubpages uses an algorithm to squeeze off traffic to low quality Hubs. If this is the case, then Google definitely notices this behaviour and ranks them also down.

        2. Marisa Wright profile image93
          Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          MillionaireTips - no, they don't use the Hubscore to decide what not to feature.

          The ONLY time a Hub can be unFeatured for quality is when it goes through QAP.   The criteria used by the QAP team does not include the HubScore.

          If a Hub is unFeatured without going through QAP, it has nothing to do with quality at all.   It is purely "engagement" which is largely judged by the amount of traffic it's getting. So again, HubScore is not a factor.

          1. Millionaire Tips profile image91
            Millionaire Tipsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Okay, you're right.  I knew that once, but somehow it got all jumbled.  Thanks for clarifying.

            1. Buildreps profile image94
              Buildrepsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I am now sure nobody exactly knows how it works.

        3. Sue Adams profile image92
          Sue Adamsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          It's the other way round: a low hubscore and/or unfeaturing is the result of poor QAP assessment and/or poor traffic, not the other way round: that Hubscore is used to decide what not to feature.

          1. Millionaire Tips profile image91
            Millionaire Tipsposted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Thank you Sue.  I get it now.

  36. Susana S profile image91
    Susana Sposted 2 years ago

    Hubscores will never be static, because my understanding is that they are judged against all other hubs. So when quality goes up across many hubs, other hubs that were judged as great now slip down a bit.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Susana S

      Where did you ever hear this?  I'm not sure that is the case and would like to know because I always thought hubs were judged individually, not as part of a spectrum of your work.

      1. Susana S profile image91
        Susana Sposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        I'm not sure if I ever heard it or it's just something that I worked out.

        I had a hub that was at and around a 100 score for so long, I'm talking probably a year or more, but it's nowhere near that now. The current score is in the mid 80's.

        Why?

        Has my hub changed for the worse - no.
        Has the traffic declined - no.
        Does Google hate it - no. (Google loves it and has always loved it.)
        Are there better hubs in it's category - yes.

        There are tonnes of much better written hubs in that category now, so it makes sense to me that my once awesome hub (by Hubpages standards) is no longer quite so awesome.

        I'm sure there's probably an element for newness in the hubscore algorithm too, so that new hubs get a boost and old ones can languish happily further down the list.

    2. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Susana, I have posted this before in the forums but I don't think people get it. TIMETRAVELER2, regarding where this came from, I've never seen it posted. I came to this conclusion about a year in, as I was trying to figure out why hubscores fluctuate so much. Studying the movement on the All Topics page helped me figure it out. For example, it I write a hub today about "Impacts of Divorce," have a few text capsules and ads, but you write one on "Impacts of Divorce on Teenage Girls," and add a poll, a video, a chart, 4 ads, and several text capsules and links, your hub will bump mine in the Gender and Relationships category. Even if mine is a quality hub, your "better quality" hub will lower my hubscore.  Make sense?

      1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
        Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

        That's very interesting.

        So that's one of the ways the standard is set.

      2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        jan:

        I thought she was referring to our own hubs only as they relate to one another, not as our hubs relate to all of those in a specific group area.

        Even with that, I'm not sure you are correct.

        I believe our hubs stand on their own merit, and it is when GOOGLE comes into play that the competition impacts us.

        Obviously, if two people write similar hubs and one is better than the other, the best of the two is going to score better...but I do not think the higher scoring hub will lower the score on the lower scoring hub...I just think it will be lower because it is not written well.

        1. janshares profile image87
          jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          TIME, I like they way you've broken that down further, that does make sense. But I do think that until a better quality hub comes along, the decent quality hub which stands alone initially will eventually change in score when the algorithm starts churning. I do believe you have a point about Google being involved but I think it's a combination. The Google factor probably has more to do with traffic and ranking. I could be totally wrong but I don't think so on this. Maybe half wrong but not totally. smile

  37. The Examiner-1 profile image83
    The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago

    Jan,
    I have replied to this several times. Traffic changes due to seasons, holidays, school (tests, etc.), work (heavy, light), it goes on and on. There are many reasons. Probably even viewers reading only parts of them.

    1. janshares profile image87
      jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      Affirmative, Kevin. But I'm referring more to the internal workings of this writing site and less about the factors that impact traffic from season to season.

      1. The Examiner-1 profile image83
        The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Internal workings again are many factors, such as, quality of activities in community, quality of content in Hubs - (spelling/grammar), photos, links (broken/unbroken), errors found/repaired, amount of Hubs/accolades/keywords, etc.

        1. janshares profile image87
          jansharesposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          Okay.

  38. Sue Adams profile image92
    Sue Adamsposted 2 years ago

    The new changes are, as usual, another attempt at improving the quality of the site as a whole. In my case, they worked in my favor. I recently edited all my hubs to meet stellar quality and comply with mobile requirements. The result:

    My hubscore average jumped from 77 to 88
    and my hubber score went from 90 to 98.

    1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
      Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

      If that's what HubPages wants us to do, why don't they just say it? Why all the secrecy all the time?

      1. The Examiner-1 profile image83
        The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        They do, they suggest to "Edit your Hubs, proofread them, keep them up to date".

        1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
          Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I'm talking mostly about complying to mobile requirements--that's what struck me about Sue Adams' comment.

          Otherwise all but eight of my hubs are of stellar quality and Google absolutely adores me! Falling hub scores, nevertheless.

          1. The Examiner-1 profile image83
            The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

            Good for you that Google adores you!
            All that I remember about mobile is keeping things separate, such as sidebars, whether they are text, photos, or whatever. This is so that the mobile has ease of reading everything.

            1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
              Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

              I think it's good enough if we simply check that our hubs work well on both desktop and mobile devices, which is why we now have the ability to preview in both.

              And time traveler has already proved that altering our hubs in order that they look the same on desktop and mobile devices can prove detrimental to hub score and certainly doesn't improve it!

              1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
                TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                Jayne:

                The team has already set things up to automatically read well on mobile.  The only problem is that the photos and/or ads may not be placed as we would like them to be on the mobile devices unless we set them up specifically for that.

                1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
                  Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                  Exactly--and that's why we should check how they look on desktop and mobile devices.

                  I've seen some of the HubPro edited hubs--everything is full width, and there are hubbers who are emulating this, which is what I thought you'd done before changing everything back again.

                  1. Marisa Wright profile image93
                    Marisa Wrightposted 2 years ago in reply to this

                    Yes, TT2 did try changing everything to full width and then changed them back again.   

                    I'm not changing mine because I'm hoping HP will eventually come up with a better solution for mobiles soon - I don't want to throw away my carefully organised layouts and then find, in a few months' time, that I didn't need to!

              2. The Examiner-1 profile image83
                The Examiner-1posted 2 years ago in reply to this

                That is correct, and I remember one time that I posted a photo in a sidebar, when I checked Preview it showed it in full-view under the mobile view while desktop was sidebar. Weird.

      2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image94
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 2 years ago in reply to this

        Jayne:

        I am not sure that changing hubs to mobile views is part of this because I tried to do this with a sampling of hubs when this all first started and my hub scores only rose 1 point each and my hubber score did not budge.  This involved 7 hubs.

        I changed them back, the gained points dropped off...and guess what?  Today my hubber score went up a point...mostly due to the fact that I did some improving on already existing hubs.

        1. Jayne Lancer profile image90
          Jayne Lancerposted 2 years ago in reply to this

          I remember you telling us, Timetraveler, which is one reason I rather disregarded the comment I was replying to. Just thought it would be interesting to question it.

  39. Sue Adams profile image92
    Sue Adamsposted 2 years ago

    Good question, but as has been said before, so many factors  influence scores that pinpointing one or two "things to do" wouldn't work. I only stated my own experience. Obviously subject matter and how readers' interests and needs are met plus a certain amount of SEO are all y a big part of the equation.

  40. RockyMountainMom profile image91
    RockyMountainMomposted 2 years ago

    I certainly won't be looking at hub pages while on vacation in the future!  Was relaxing the first part of my trip.  But now my scores are falling even further.  Regardless of the degree to which we are 'supposed' to care, it's been a real downer on my trip, and a distraction I shouldn't have gotten sucked into.  I'm grateful for all of the discussion, though, so I at least had some info and thoughts on what was up.

 
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