Petition to HubPages Staff

Jump to Last Post 51-90 of 90 discussions (327 posts)

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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
I agree, those scores (quality and activity) should not be tied together. If Google traffic is a goal, Hubber scores should be tied to the quality of your writing, overall quality of the hub, and whatever other easily measurable things relate to Google. Then that score could be posted on our individual accounts page, with any helpful metrics that can let us know how to improve. If the site has some valid reason for rewarding people for being active, I agree that an accolade is best. We may already have that covered in the assorted accolades now awarded.

But the current system is meaningless and causes us to spin our wheels. You log in and see your score has dropped, and wonder whether you need to answer some questions, or post in the forum, hop a bunch of hubs, or (what a thought!) write another few hubs. Oh wait - you did that yesterday, and your score went down. Are your readers not sufficiently 'engaged' or something? Oh, woe - the vast majority are from Google, and everyone knows they rarely post comments. Better hurry and pester your friends by sharing a Hub on Facebook. Yet again.

This is crazy-making behavior, and has nothing to do with writing good content. And every minute we spend trying to do damage control to boost a sagging number takes away from the time we could spend in writing new pieces and improving existing hubs.
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1. 87
  Will Apseposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I reckon, the real issue for you is traffic, Marcy. And looking at your pages I would say the problem is not your writing, it is the same problem we all have -- how to find popular subjects that are not already saturated.
  
  There are ways to do it but it is very, very time consuming.
  
  Incidentally, it might be your quest for popular pages that caused your recent, bigger than average traffic drop. A clutch of pages in oversubscribed subject areas might have triggered a Google hit.
  
  Please feel free to hate me for this unsolicited insight.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Will - I greatly appreciate your feedback (and would welcome more). I fully agree that some titles are too saturated - some of these were assigned during the AP stint, and some were Exclusives titles, back when we were told those were sure winners. And some were my misguided efforts early on, coming from many years of 'general assignments' writing and reporting in a variety of print and online settings, so I have no true niche.
  
  I'm thinking of eliminating anything to do with the environment, and cleaning out other non-performers. Sadly, my highest-performing hubs have all been stolen repeatedly. Traffic always plummets, and after weeks of trying to get action on DMCAs, only returns to a fraction of what it was prior to that. I'm tired of that game. Some of those hubs were on the first page of google, and have not yet returned.
  
  Again - thanks for taking a look and sharing your thoughts - I love the helpful attitude of this community.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Marcy, one thing to think about. Theft is a huge problem on HubPages, because most thefts are carried out by people who use a scraper to steal articles automatically. For that, they need to find a single site which publishes a steady stream of material. So individual blogs, where the writer posts an article once or twice a week, are of no use to them - but revenue-sharing sites like HubPages are a gift.
  
  Therefore if theft upsets you, write on your own blog instead - the problem will virtually go away. I've had only half a dozen instances of theft from my own blogs, and they were all done innocently, and easily rectified. In fact twice, the person who copied the article was happy to pay me for it, when I pointed out that it was copyright.
  
  The problem with that, of course, is that first you have to decide on a topic (because your blog must, must, must specialise), and that you'll have to learn how to monetize your blog - which is not as easy as just putting Adsense ads on it. Plus it can be a lonely life - although having discovered Jetpack for my Wordpress blogs, which gives me access to the Wordpress.com community, I'm finding things have improved in that respect.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Marisa - while I know those things now (after being on HubPages), I honestly did not know about full-scale scrapers prior to being on this site. It may well have deterred me from signing up, because I have strong feelings about stolen content (whether it's somebody stealing mine, or someone presenting stolen content in a term paper). I had not imagined that the type of broad, blatant theft we have seen here even existed - guess I am naive (or was, at least, before this experience). So when it first happened, I was floored and very offended. Now, I am just tired of dealing with it, over and over and over.
  
  As you point out, sites like HP are sitting ducks for scrapers (again, something I did not realize, and I imagine others who are new to online writing were surprised, too). Being new to online writing is not the same as being new to writing, so for someone used to the print environment for many years, this is like learning that you've moved into a new 'neighborhood,' and it's one that doesn't play by the rules in place where you used to live. Even print publications that publish online don't go through the frequent thefts we see here (and I wrote regularly for a combo online/print magazine for several years). Also, if there are thefts, the publishers deal with it, not the writers.
  
  I've considered publishing on my own site (translate that to mean, "create it first"). But I am not sure I'll go that route. I like to drive a car, not build it, and the same might hold true for my preference for writing for a site rather than creating the site. Still pondering it all.
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  85
  Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It wasn't a problem when I first joined, and then when HubPages was doing so well, it was worth putting up with - the earnings potential of Hubs was so great, it was worth the extra effort to protect them.
  
  What's happened in recent times is that we're getting floods of people looking for ways to make their fortune on the internet. One of the most popular methods, because it takes so little effort, is to create a huge site by scraping content off another site, and plastering it with ads. There are plenty of "entrepreneurs" selling this solution - there are even scrapers designed specifically to take content from HubPages! It's the sort of site which Google is trying to penalize with its Panda and Penguin updates, but as we know, it's not being very successful.
  
  The other problem with HubPages is that it looks exactly like an article directory site - sites which are created specifically to provide content for re-use on blogs. So as well as the charlatans who knowingly steal, we get people who think they're doing it legally.
  
  Even if Google does manage to ensure these sites fail, I don't see them disappearing any time soon - because the internet gurus will go on selling the solution to gullilble buyers.
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  cynthtggtposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It reminds me of how I thought - when I was young - about being a "good" secretary. When I worked faster and worked later, I was given more work, while everyone else seemed to be working at a comfortable pace. I thought that if I did well there would be some kind of respite, a break. But I was quick to learn that the better quality put out means everyone comes to you to have you do more work, more editing, more letters, more quality in less time. Perhaps the scores are doing what Hubpages wants them to do: Make you do more by making you think you're doing less.
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  bhupee24posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes cynthtggt !! Its right that when you do well and more people expect more from you and you sometimes got depressed with.
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
Related to my earlier comment about spinning our wheels trying to address scores, here's a quote by Matt Cutts in his latest blog that sums up the problem the Hubber score can create:

"It’s great to be productive. It really is. But sometimes we chase productivity so much that it makes us, well, unproductive. It’s easy to read a lot about how to be more productive, but don’t forget that you have make that time up."

Just substitute the term, 'great to get a high Hubber score' for 'great to be productive,' and you get the picture. It's normal to care about the score and try to affect it in some way, but it's not productive to be chasing phantom issues.
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Writer Foxposted 10 years ago
If every kid in school had to walk around with his last test score taped to his face, the parents would be storming the school.

That's the way I look at the Hubber score.
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DigbyAdamsposted 10 years ago
Every time I see this topic, I wonder if people really think this should be a high priority. With everything else that needs to be fixed at HubPages, does this seem that important? While I would like that number to be kept private, I seriously doubt that it stops anyone from reading a hub or influences our earnings that much.
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
This is depressing, Marisa - and it must be very discouraging for the HP staff. I know some who purchase tools or software to scrape are unsuspecting, but I am also positive there are many who know exactly what they're doing. I see what you're saying about the 'old days' being a completely different game - not as many scrapers or thefts, and a much higher income potential. But it's like taking two steps forward and three backward at times in the current environment.
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STAFF
Paul Edmondsonposted 10 years ago
When we created the site over 7 years ago I had a vision for HubScore to be recognized as a signal of trust to members of our community and casual readers. It does fluctuate intentionally a bit and we suggest to not be too concerned over small changes in the score.

It does have importance. Generally, people with high HubScores are more trusted and active community members. We are also feeding more quality data into the score and will adapt it over time to be more reflective of Hub Quality.

I still want HubScore to be recognizable. We started an initiative internally at HubPages to better highlight aspects of the author. We'll see how the display of HubScore impacts this in our prototype/testing.

One thing I really appreciate is thoughtful feedback...Thanks for bringing this up and all the good comments.
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Paul, this is good to know. I used to ruminate and worry about my hubberscore until I made the decision to stop stressing myself out. I realized that, for the most part, it is out of my control. However, I would be interested in keeping the scores on our avatars if the formula changed and it reflected or productivity, skill, and seniority on the site. (See below for expanded suggestions)
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Jan - I think your ideas are good, except I don't fully agree with seniority being a factor. That would automatically downgrade new writers, even if they are outstanding authors and good contributors. And they would rapidly lose the motivation to publish. Similarly, it would imply that someone on the site for five years could have extra points in that category, even if they published junk.
  
  I stand by my original request that scores NOT be visible. I see value in having some sort of score (privately seen, only by the author), because we can see how we are doing and what we can do to improve our work or traffic. But I don't see a value to anyone in having it be public. Readers could be artificially driven to writers with high scores (even if they tweak the system). Back when we had a link with the 'best' Hubber scores ranked numerically, it created problems. Some writers on the top page were harassed (or copied). And any reader going to that list would, understandably, start clicking on the 'highest and best' at the expense of other writers who might have a bit lower score, but be just as interesting and competent.
  
  As for having activity on this site as a piece of the score - well, maybe if it is a privately seen score (to encourage people to be more active), and maybe if writers understand that part of the score has dropped (rather than scratching their heads in confusion). But readers and Google don't give a flip about whether we are active on this site, or whether we are good community members. This isn't Facebook, it's a content site.
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  Zsuzsy Beeposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I'm of the opinion that if a hubber has been on the site for 5 years he/she would know better than to publish junk... but I also know that the Hub-team would not permit junk to stay published for long.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I think you're right that regular contributors learn not to publish junk if they've been here that long. But the 'old junk' would be rewarded if a score factors in the number of years the writer has been here, even if they stopped writing new content. There's a lot of junk languishing on the site - and getting hits from Google. Thankfully, the QAP is plowing through that stuff, so maybe it will eventually go away.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Again, I have read hubs from those in the "100" club and wouldn't trust the author with much at all, yet those with well thought out hubs have lower scores.
  
  Perhaps, Hubpages is more reflective of other sites like youtube, in which the lower the quality of content, the more popular it becomes.
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  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Write a hub.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Why?
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  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Cause this is a writing site. It is the purpose of being here. Besides it is not right to critique others hubs when your aptitude is shrouded. It's easy to criticize whilst hiding your name, picture and qualifications. Seems a bit cowardly to me.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Allow me to show you something...
  
  "You are reading words written on a writing site"
  
  Yes, these posts actually do contain words as crazy as that sounds.
  
  My aptitude is encapsulated in the words I write, opened for all to see, never shrouded.
  
  So, you judge folks aptitude based on their name, picture and qualifications as opposed to what they say and their ideas?
  
  And, you further conclude that those who's aptitude you deem unworthy due to not having a name, picture and qualifications, are cowardly.
  
  I certainly don't see your name or qualifications. Is that cowardly, too?
  
  Of course, there's no need to also mention that you continue, despite having been here a while now, to focus on the individual, calling them names and telling them what to do.
  
  Curious behavior, indeed.
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I think I'd like your hubs. Not because I'm bothered that you haven't written any, but because I like your direct approach. I wish you would write some, then we'd have more than just your forum comments- which is a good thing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The problem with that is two-fold.
  
  First, it is obvious content means very little here, in fact, it appears the less content you have in a hub, the higher the score. I won't mention any names, but an author (and I use the term loosely) recently hit the 100 club. This was mind boggling considering the content of the hubs, which are abysmal at best.
  
  And secondly, other external factors and influences can determine what happens to the capacity of how hubs are filtered on the internet.
  
  Both of these reasons have shown an exodus of some of the best writers here.
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You're right, the Goggle shenanigans and the convoluted nature of hubscores, hubberscores etc. are a frustration to many.
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  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  So... you want us to judge you as a writer (as you have others) by your communications here? Sentences that basically consist of the words "Liar", "Leprechaun" and "Purple dragon"?
  Ok. So maybe our hub scores aren't so off the mark after all.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You can judge me however you see fit, the point of forums, however, is not to judge the ideas, not the person.
  
  Yes, those words are relative to the sentences written by believers, for example, "Resurrection", "God" and "Faith"
  
  Exactly
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
Thanks for reading the comments here, and for taking time to post a response, Paul. Since some specific concerns have been raised, can you address these questions (below)?

1) Will Hubbers have more information on what their individual scores reflect?

2) You mentioned not being concerned about 'small changes,' but we have seen instances of 18% drops in scores of experienced, trusted Hubbers. Will those issues be addressed?

3) Several people have requested more transparency. How will this be seen in the new approach?

4) Several Hubbers feel activity on the site does not accurately reflect what readers are interested in seeing (they want to read content; they don't care whether we are socially active here). Will this be removed or dramatically decreased in the new formula?

5) You mentioned wanting the score to 'better highlight aspects of the author.' Will this help give fair and appropriate consideration to the diversity on the site, such as poets and other creative writers?

6) When can we expect to see the changes?

Thanks, again, for the thoughtful response. I hope the dialogue can continue a bit longer, so writers can better understand what to expect from future scores (in lieu of my personal preference, which is to get rid of them), and when we will see changes.

BTW - congratulations on the 100!!! (Had to mentioned that - LOL!)
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jansharesposted 10 years ago
When this came up months ago, I posted some suggestions in a forum that I don't recall at this time. One thing I suggested is that new hubbers should not have a hubberscore displayed at all, not for at least 6 months. It takes time to build a credible reputation on HubPages as you learn the ropes. The ups and downs of learning the ropes and producing consistent quality takes trial and error. Therefore, I think a hubberscore should be earned. This way, if the hubber is working hard and improving along the way, there should be no such thing as a hubberscore of 45. I think this will help with newbie's morale and self-esteem and eliminate an unnecessary distraction. Maybe consider a number on a newbie avatar representing months on HubPages (from 1 to 6). Then calculate hubberscore after 6 months, based on their body of work.

I believe that the primary factors for hubberscore should include the number of hubs, the number of years on the site, and the quality of work, based on skills. This skill should be evidenced by how well you write, use capsules, and create stellar hubs. That's it.

If the hubberscore is calculated with these factors, it can only increase over time. Subsequently, the more you write, the more you produce, the better you get, and the higher your hubberscore gets. Very Simple.

I think that participation in the community should count as bonus points only. For example, making quality comments on hubs 3x a week would be one point. If you don't comment over a certain period, you lose points. Therefore, the only thing to make scores fluctuate would be bonus points that are nominal and would not take that much away from the bulk of your score which is based on factors stated above, remaining relatively stable.

Anyway, just my two cents. If hubberscore does not reflect what matters, then I agree with Marcy.
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
Apparently Marisa posted a comment but maybe she took it down or is editing it (I can't find it). Zsuzy Bee responded to it. Anyway, in reference to Marisa's comment, I agree completely that the number of hubs should not be a factor in a score. Quality is quality, regardless of quantity.
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  Zsuzsy Beeposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Marcy, Marisa's post is the sixth one from the bottom of page one...
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks - I didn't go far enough back in the history to find it!
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I do see your points, Marcy, especially if your rationale is based on the currently flawed system. My proposal is based on assumptions if the calculation factors changed. The main assumption is that "junk" will get weeded out over time and that the hubber's willingness to work hard and write more will produce quality. The second assumption is that with increased quanitity of hubs, one can only get better and produce quality hubs.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I like your point about writers improving as they continue writing. But would you want someone with only a few very high-quality hubs to be downgraded based on quantity?
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Not at all. The quality of those hubs would factor in positively for that writer. They would just have a higher score if they had more. No penalization, only reward and incentive. . . . presumably.
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  janderson99posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Looks like not much is going to change with the scores.
  Oh well we tried.
  Paul E
  It will adapt "...over time to be more reflective of Hub Quality.
  ..........I still want HubScore to be recognizable."
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I caught that loud and clear, janderson99. Maybe we can all meet halfway and compromise.
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  jansharesposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  My compromise would be yes, they would serve all better if the option were available that they were hidden, or at least from the public. But the calculations must change. The argument about already having accolades makes sense.
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rebekahELLEposted 10 years ago
HP is considered a UGC site, which use incentives, rewards, shares, contests, comments, accolades etc. to generate activity and motivation to publish/participate on a regular basis. Scores are simply a part of the incentive/reward factor, at least that's how I see it.

I don't look at scores, the only place I ever see them is in the forums. If I'm reading hubs, it makes no difference to me who the hubber is or what their score may be. It's not a factor for me.

It's nice to see zb posting in the forums.
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  Zsuzsy Beeposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Hiya Rebekah hope you're well. I finally got the all okay for my eyes so I'm back... I love Hubpages just the way it is and hate all this negativity...
  regards zs
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  Uninvited Writerposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Hey there, haven't seen you in a while.
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  Zsuzsy Beeposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Was on 'sick leave'. My eyes were sooo bad that I had to give up on the strainful stuff so as not to loose my sight totally. Life is good again don't even want to think of what my days would be like if I couldn't see. Everything that I love, sewing, embroidery, handy work of all types, reading, Hubpages needs good eyesight. Well I'm back with 'coke bottle bottom' disguised as glasses.
  Hope you're well.
  zs
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Melovyposted 10 years ago
I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but can definitely see the value in making the reasons behind hubber scores clear and making hubber scores private. They would be most effective used in a way to enable us to improve where necessary.

My score has always been high compared to traffic (which was never great but has been abysmal for months) and I'd gladly swap that. In a way though, I can see that trying to work out the vagaries of scores must be a bit like trying to work out the reason why Google has suddenly slapped you hard. At least with the traffic issue there's a tangible purpose to trying to fix things whereas with hubber scores there doesn't seem to be. I don't see any real benefit from persistently having a high score - it doesn't bring traffic, which is after all, what we all want. I truly can't see that readers are looking at my score and thinking: "She must be a good and trusted writer, we'll tell everyone about her and get her lots of traffic." So if that's the main purpose in showing it, it's not achieving its purpose. If it's to signal to members of the community who are trusted members, then the suggestion made earlier that is only be shown when signed in would cover that, but there are so many other ways to show that it doesn't seem necessary. (Accolades for instance.)
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Pamela99posted 10 years ago
I have been around for about almost four years and I fully agree with you. You made a very common sense argument.
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moonlakeposted 10 years ago
Here's the problem with hubber scores. I put up another hub yesterday and my hubber score dropped from 96 to 92. I feel I was penalized for making another hub. That right there is the reason I don't like the scores showing.
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moonlakeposted 10 years ago
I have to take it back it just dropped to 91.
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SilverGenesposted 10 years ago
I'm in complete agreement to have the option to hide the score from public views. In my case, I've found my score hits 100 when I'm nowhere near the site. As soon as I comment, post, or otherwise be part of the community, it drops 3 or 4 points overnight. I'd find it helpful as a guideline only if I understood the reasons behind it - then I could do something to improve it. The way it is now, the only thing I can conclude is that to keep my score up there, I need to stay away LOL.
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  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  lol... true.
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Will Apseposted 10 years ago
People definitely take this site too seriously. Or perhaps no one manages to get over school?
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  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I thought about that too Will... It's almost as if you can see our childhood angst coming out. Those who needed to succeed with grades and parent/teacher pleasing are probably extremely plagued by being judged by a grading system they seem to have no control over. It must be incredibly frustrating for them... then those of us who are maybe too laid back probably add to their vexation. I feel for them, but it is still kind of funny... wearing an imaginary score around our necks all day. Seems like some kind of social experiment.
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  PaulGoodman67posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's never been a secret that the score has a random element in how it is calculated. So I do find it mystifying that anyone could celebrate a ten or twenty percent increase or mourn a similar drop. But maybe like you say, Beth, it is the lack of control that actually causes the angst in some/many people. (The only time that I take notice is when I come across someone with an absurdly low score, as they can sometimes be spammers, spinners, or whatever).
  
  It should also be added that there is some sort of ranking system in all the other writing sites (Wizzley, Squidoo etc). HP is far from alone.
  
  (Where is Randy Godwin, by the way? This is historically the sort of discussion that he likes to wade in on and list some of his own personal grievances?)
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  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I honestly never notice ppl's scores either, but then Im not a detail person. I believe I could be capable of sailing a ship and not seeing the ocean. However, I am not above using it as a vicious tool against my foes should they try to best me.
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  Mark Ewbieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Weren't you 100 a while ago? Hmmm, how the mighty have fallen.
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  wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Sad, isn't it? Even the stick men beat out poor Beth anymore...
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  Mark Ewbieposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It is sad and also funny.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  A long, long time ago...
  I can still remember
  How that music used to make me smile.
  And I knew if I had my chance
  That I could make those people dance
  And, maybe, they’d be happy for a while.
  
  But February made me shiver
  With every paper I’d deliver.
  Bad news on the doorstep;
  I couldn’t take one more step.
  
  I can’t remember if I cried
  When I read about his widowed bride,
  But something touched me deep inside
  The day the music died.
  
  So bye-bye, miss american pie.
  Drove my chevy to the levee,
  But the levee was dry.
  And them good old boys were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
  Singin’, "this’ll be the day that I die.
  "this’ll be the day that I die."
  
  Did you write the book of love,
  And do you have faith in God above,
  If the Bible tells you so?
  Do you believe in rock ’n roll,
  Can music save your mortal soul,
  And can you teach me how to dance real slow?
  
  Well, I know that you’re in love with him
  `cause I saw you dancin’ in the gym.
  You both kicked off your shoes.
  Man, I dig those rhythm and blues.
  
  I was a lonely teenage broncin’ buck
  With a pink carnation and a pickup truck,
  But I knew I was out of luck
  The day the music died.
  
  I started singin’,
  "bye-bye, miss american pie."
  Drove my chevy to the levee,
  But the levee was dry.
  Them good old boys were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
  And singin’, "this’ll be the day that I die.
  "this’ll be the day that I die."
  
  Now for ten years we’ve been on our own
  And moss grows fat on a rollin’ stone,
  But that’s not how it used to be.
  When the jester sang for the king and queen,
  In a coat he borrowed from James Dean
  And a voice that came from you and me,
  
  Oh, and while the king was looking down,
  The jester stole his thorny crown.
  The courtroom was adjourned;
  No verdict was returned.
  And while Lennon read a book of Marx,
  The quartet practiced in the park,
  And we sang dirges in the dark
  The day the music died.
  
  We were singing,
  "bye-bye, miss american pie."
  Drove my chevy to the levee,
  But the levee was dry.
  Them good old boys were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
  And singin’, "this’ll be the day that I die.
  "this’ll be the day that I die."
  
  Helter skelter in a summer swelter.
  The birds flew off with a fallout shelter,
  Eight miles high and falling fast.
  It landed foul on the grass.
  The players tried for a forward pass,
  With the jester on the sidelines in a cast.
  
  Now the half-time air was sweet perfume
  While the sergeants played a marching tune.
  We all got up to dance,
  Oh, but we never got the chance!
  `cause the players tried to take the field;
  The marching band refused to yield.
  Do you recall what was revealed
  The day the music died?
  
  We started singing,
  "bye-bye, miss american pie."
  Drove my chevy to the levee,
  But the levee was dry.
  Them good old boys were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
  And singin’, "this’ll be the day that I die.
  "this’ll be the day that I die."
  
  Oh, and there we were all in one place,
  A generation lost in space
  With no time left to start again.
  So come on: jack be nimble, jack be quick!
  Jack flash sat on a candlestick
  Cause fire is the devil’s only friend.
  
  Oh, and as I watched him on the stage
  My hands were clenched in fists of rage.
  No angel born in hell
  Could break that satan’s spell.
  And as the flames climbed high into the night
  To light the sacrificial rite,
  I saw satan laughing with delight
  The day the music died
  
  He was singing,
  "bye-bye, miss american pie."
  Drove my chevy to the levee,
  But the levee was dry.
  Them good old boys were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
  And singin’, "this’ll be the day that I die.
  "this’ll be the day that I die."
  
  I met a girl who sang the blues
  And I asked her for some happy news,
  But she just smiled and turned away.
  I went down to the sacred store
  Where I’d heard the music years before,
  But the man there said the music wouldn’t play.
  
  And in the streets: the children screamed,
  The lovers cried, and the poets dreamed.
  But not a word was spoken;
  The church bells all were broken.
  And the three men I admire most:
  The father, son, and the holy ghost,
  They caught the last train for the coast
  The day the music died.
  
  And they were singing,
  "bye-bye, miss american pie."
  Drove my chevy to the levee,
  But the levee was dry.
  And them good old boys were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
  Singin’, "this’ll be the day that I die.
  "this’ll be the day that I die."
  
  They were singing,
  "bye-bye, miss american pie."
  Drove my chevy to the levee,
  But the levee was dry.
  Them good old boys were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
  Singin’, "this’ll be the day that I die."
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  Will Apseposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You posted in the wrong thread again, didn't you?
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  PaulGoodman67posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  People shouldn't be allowed to post in this thread unless they have a hubber score of at least 94! Oh, er, um, make that at least 88!
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are right. I shall fix that.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No. You are wrong. I did right. The post here is not mine.
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  PDS is singing to all the women! He has a list, you know!
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Careful. I just might revisit number 2.
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Will we shortly discover who number three is? I've left you a message at R's place.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Proceeding there immediately.
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  Beth37posted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Shut up.
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paradigmsearchposted 10 years ago
Randasious is alive and well. Would you like to discuss him?
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Will Apseposted 10 years ago
I think Randy called someone a rude name and he was sent home.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Curious, what did send him in?
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paradigmsearchposted 10 years ago
A Troubled Man. I like you. Let us play.
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paradigmsearchposted 10 years ago
I am top 5 forum posts. I am nonplussed.
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  janderson99posted 10 years agoin reply to this
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  God will get you for that. Would you like to play?
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  janderson99posted 10 years agoin reply to this
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Proceed.
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paradigmsearchposted 10 years ago
First, we must find a point of disagreement. Try me. There's gotta be something...
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  All I have to say is, Number two. Slime ball!
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You are drunk. Am I wrong? Not a bad thing.
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, no. I'm joking. PDS, lighten up!
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Where are my glasses? And why i s floor wet?
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Why is there a space between your i and s? You are not usually format impaired!
  
  Cheeky scoundrel
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I found my glasses. And I have cleaned my <snipped>.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Have you fallen down and can't reach your beer?
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  No. Not yet. And it's whisky. I'm doing the catharsis thing.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Lol. Usually when one purges, they're trying to get the whiskey out of them.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  On a serious note. I really did think I had a major plumbing leak. I even shut the water off. Just turned it back on. Stared at the meter. Seems to be ok now. Seriously, wtf? I'll check back a couple more times. I really don't need anymore life-challenges right now... Meanwhile, today continues to be a breakout day for me. Who knows? Maybe I'll even drop by the religion forums. Not.
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  Klushposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Grim
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing more difficult than trying to find the source of a water leak in a house without ripping everything up. Hope it turns out to just be a case of spilled milk, so to speak.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Your post caused me to check the meter again. All appears well, not spinning at all. Darned odd, that. Floor drying out nicely. I am contemplating contacting CNN as to my paranormal experience.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Is your hot water tank still intact? Where in the house was the floor wet?
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Very good call. You are right, I had the hot water heater experience several years ago. It is indeed the first thing someone should check. Not kidding. Floor was wet back then, it was the heater. Pinhole leak in a pipe actually. Fixed it with J-B Weld. Saved a freaking fortune doing that. As for now, who the heck knows? The wet spot was not near the heater. It was, however, near one of the bathrooms. I'm watching it like a hawk.
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Madeposted 10 years ago
When I first joined HubPages and my hubber score started to climb, it was very interesting. When it started to drop I did all I could to make it go up again. I really wanted to have a high score. When I have been very active I have reached 100, but now I don't really care about the score anymore. I'm a happy hubber without a number too.
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stclairjackposted 10 years ago
theres a number next to my name picture????..... omg.... who knew,.. i shall have to waste the next 10 seconds obscessing over my "score".... then i'll get over it and actually SCORE something of value,... like a life undefined by numbers.

peace friends,... couldnt help myself,.. just had to giggle

poorly spelled as always -jack
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C.V.Rajanposted 10 years ago
Hubscore is a non issue. The alarming drop in the page views that has happened to most of us is the real issue. What Hubpages is going to do about it should be the real concern for me.
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pkmcrposted 10 years ago
I have recently come back to Hubpages after a lengthy absence and spent the last 10 days or so tidying up my pages, deleting some and creating a couple of new ones to get me back into the stride.

I hadn't really focused on my profile score but noticed that this morning it suddenly seemed to be a lot higher - so i guessed that it must relate to level of activity on hubs. But then reading some of the comments that didn't seem to make sense. So as it doesn't make sense I would have thought the best thing to do would be to hide it from public view.
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earnerposted 10 years ago
Sorry to buck the trend, but I like author scores. When faced with hundreds of hubbers, it's a clue as to who has been around awhile, made some effort - and might know what they're talking about ..... so it helps me to spot who is more interesting for me to read/follow in a bunch.

It also gives me an instant indicator of if I need to do more, or kick back and do nothing for a day
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  Pearldiverposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Wow.... Amazing! What a totally wonderful reason to ditch this Elitist piece of discrimination! I for one object to such hollow judgments being promoted and wrongfully used to determine who should be seen as being 'worthwhile' - albeit based on the pretense that the 'judge' officiating knows better!
  In fact, I believe this may well be a case of, or at the very least qualify as, a Lemon judging Oranges!
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Beth37posted 10 years ago
*to* judge the ideas

What you don't realize is that a person *is his thoughts and ideals, and you are in no position to judge them.
One because you are not qualified
Two because most of your judgments are opinions
Three because if you are an expert in any subject, you have provided nothing to prove that you are
Four because if you actually wanted to help others, you'd offer encouragement. What you offer is insult.
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  Pearldiverposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I take it that you are referring to the act of 'judging' others by their Hubber Scores??
  If so, then you have made some positive points...
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  That is false, the beliefs many hold here are not theirs at all, they are beliefs of others. They have no hold over them whatsoever other than the fact they accepted them.
  
  Secondly, the definition of 'judge' is to determine or declare after consideration or deliberation or to have as an opinion or assumption, to suppose.
  
  That is what we do, we judge ideas and beliefs. That is the purpose of this forum.
  
  All of that is either false or irrelevant and is little more than an emotional outburst. That is most definitely not the purpose of this forum.
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  Klushposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  And we also love to poke a few as well. Don't we??
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John Sarkisposted 10 years ago
Marcy, on that note, I don't even think we writers fully understand 'Hubber Scores'. Which brings me to my next point: if we don't fully understand it, why should we think anyone will?
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  JayeWisdomposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly don't understand the Hubber Score, and--though I was happy to see mine reach 100 and stay there for about a week--I haven't a clue why it dropped back to 98. I don't think my hubs are any less well-written or valuable when my score's 98 than they were when it was 100.
  
  As for the score providing a type of quality assurance rating for readers, I really find that difficult to believe. I've seen the magic "100" score prominent on the profile of one HP member I consider a mediocre writer at best, a poor one at worst--so please don't tell me the score indicates quality! (And, yes--I am qualified to judge the quality of writing. My "real" career prior to retirement included decades of writing and editing.) Sometimes it seems that popularity is a factor. If that's true, then HP is more of a Facebook wannabee than a serious writers' site, more's the pity.
  
  If spending hours in the forums or asking numerous inane questions is required to beef up one's score, it's not worth it to me. As are many of the respondents on this thread, I'm more interested in what's happening with traffic and whether or not HP administration is trying to (or can) do anything to improve it. Paul?
  
  Jaye
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A Troubled Manposted 10 years ago
Uh, is it just me or is there actually nowhere on Hubpages that explains the number score criteria, what actually influences it to go up an down?
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's not just you - the learning center had (or has) some information, but it is understanadbly vague. It is also probably outdated, since Google is different now than years ago, and the site has implemented the QAP. It's obviously flawed for today's environment - any of us can find numerous examples of 'Hubbers' with no content, no activity, no nothing, and they still have a score higher than what new members get.
  
  It has a negative 'reward' for posting new hubs (as we have all noticed, the score goes down when you publish). The site refers to the score reflecting ''engaging' the readers, but with a huge focus on getting Google traffic, that's doesn't recognize people who have a high ratio of Google traffic, which generally doesn't produce comments. Because the current (old) system apparently rewards people for being active on the forums or in Answers, people can game the system by being very social here (which in no way ensures quality writing).
  
  New writers, in particularly, go through trial by humiliation - they often have embarrassingly low scores until, well, something (we don't know what) raises them up.
  
  I do agree that there's value in having a reliable way to give feedback to Hubbers about quality and traffic, but if motivation is the site's goal, a public number won't cut it. Paul E. states their original thought was that readers would think the score meant something. I'm not sure if that was intended for them to 'follow' the Hubber, or what? We can all tell this is not how it works - readers don't give a flip, and if they do see the number, they likely to think there are grades here rather than to think, wow, what a great community member!
  
  Any site feedback should be private, and be understandable and useful. If the site is not equally proud of every writer here (now that the QAP is in place), then they should get the ones they're punishing off the site. But, the site claims to care about everyone. So get rid of public scores. Every writer here is unique and contributes in different ways. Our public profiles need to reflect that, not label us in some form of a numerical pecking order.
  
  It's interesting to note that the vast majority of those commenting on this thread have high scores. That should be an indicator that we're going to bat for the entire site, not because of our own numbers.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  You certainly are prolific.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I guess that's one word for it. Yes, I feel strongly about this. I'm sure that doesn't show . . .
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Drop me an email, but be careful.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Jeez, Yahoo email is a total shambles. Got one of your emails, but not the other. Let's do <snipped> . I know I will get spammed to death for posting this, but you are worth it.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I have a brand, new rant. Why in the hell is there no reply button on the frontpage of gmail? Jeez, how stupid can you get? I've seen reviews of gmail, so I know I am not alone.
  
  @MG I have complied with your request. And thanks.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. I've noticed the hidden 'reply' button, too - you have to search for it (can't recall how). Drives me crazy. I'm always on my iPad or phone, or my email program on the computer, and 'reply' is easy to see, but it's like learning all over again when I go to the actual gmail screen.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I found the reply link. Welcome to Year 2013. Sent you 2 messages. Be careful with the second one...
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Watch out for earthquakes . . ,
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  All is well.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Btw, did you know there is a college named after me? And it is in Texas. Discovered it when I bought my domain name a decade ago. I researched them; there are more parallels there than you can shake a stick at. There is even my Mom's name involved there. And just why in the heck have I still not got around to sorting that out? I really do need to get with it.
  
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It's in Texas - check out the happenings in 2012 - financial struggles & probably the end of a piece of Texas history.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. I noticed that when I revisited them. The oil and gas is not going to save them? And why are they sending LM inquiries to bearcats? LM is a good name.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  The Permanent University Fund in Texas (the oil & gas money) is for public institutions. Is that the one you meant? Lon Morris sounds like it was a great place - and it's a loss to the state.
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  paradigmsearchposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Drop me another email.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Great post. I do hope Paul Edmonson is still following this thread.
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Marisa - I hope so, too . . .
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Here's what I found on the QA...
  
  "To improve your HubScores (scores associated with individual Hubs) and your Hubber Score (the collective score of your entire HubPages profile), we recommend that you:
  
  Regularly publish high quality Hubs
  Comment on others' Hubs and help other Hubbers in the Forums
  Avoid publishing a large number of Hubs all at once (even if they were just drafted elsewhere ahead of time and are already of high quality)
  Avoid Following large numbers of Hubbers over a short period of time and following Hubbers of dubious merit. You should only follow people who you have a genuine interest in keeping up with.
  
  Please keep in mind that it is natural for HubScores and Hubber Scores to fluctuate up and down in unpredictable ways. It is best not to put too much emphasis on them.
  
  Do not worry when your HubScore dips a bit. So long as you are behaving in a reasonable manner within the HubPages community by contributing Hubs, comments, Questions, Answers, and Forum Discussions of value, your Hubber Score should eventually increase over time."
  
  By conducting ones own experiments, they can follow this to the letter and see if it works. Of course, even if you do follow it, they still put the disclaimer regarding the natural up an down fluctuation in "unpredictable ways".
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  Pearldiverposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I Totally Object to being referred to either directly or indirectly as a Hubber of Dubious Merit!
  It is absolutely disgusting to intimate such BS based on one's accent!
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  JayeWisdomposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  One of the HP "recommendations" for helping one's score is to "help Hubbers in the forums." Since many forums are nothing but arguments between two opposing sides of a controversial topic, it's difficult to see how one could be "helpful" there. Commenting in a forum such as this may be helpful, but then again, it may just point out one's own frustration!
  
  I agree with Marcy that the overall Hubber score should be a private one and that HP administration should publish to all HP members EXACTLY what causes that score to go up or down. Are they using an objective formula to compute the score, or is it subjective? If they're going to give us feedback in the form of a number, it should be useful feedback. A fluctuating score that means absolutely nothing (and often seems a punishment when it goes down after the Hubber has done something supposedly positive, such as publish a new high-quality hub, comment on others' hubs or participate in forums) is NOT real feedback!
  
  When something is clearly not working for the members, HP administration should consider changing it.
  
  Jaye
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Avoid Following large numbers of Hubbers over a short period of time and following Hubbers of dubious merit.
  
  Good point! As HP determine the quality of the hub, the hubberscore and credibility of the author (trustworthiness), why are they allowing authors of dubious merit to publish here in the first place?
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
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skye2dayposted 10 years ago
Just my little Ole opinion. I know I rarely notice the hubber score when I go to read a hub. I will notice mine on occasion. If it is a bit low I know after I go to read and comment then up it will come again and very soon like the next day. Perhaps it keeps us Ole writers on our toes.

I believe new readers and old friends come because we have something they want. Numbers have nothing to do with it. They notice content and personality. It is then they read and hopefully return and or link out to share our stuff. Love never fails. We do reap what we sow.

Keep the hubber score and do not allow a number to take up space in the head. JK, not. Let it be. My Love, Skye.
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janderson99posted 10 years ago
Given that HP does not want to change Hubber Score, apart from adding/modifying average hub score it is clear that:
=> The Hubber Score is primarily designed for use by HP for various ratings
=> Hubber opinions are not really relevant as it is set by HP for its own use. The Score is how HP rates the author
=> Fluctuations in the score matter much less to HP than they do to the Hubber.
=> HP is unwilling to make it better because of its focus on the whole site
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brakel2posted 10 years ago
I don't care one way or another. However, I thought if we kept a score above 90, our hubs would not be idled. Because of that, I have tried to stay very active on the site - commenting on articles, asking questions, trying??? to do research for a new hub. I understand what others say. I guess if I went into the 80s, I might feel differently.
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  missoliveposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Brakel2, I have an 83 Hubber score as of this post and 100% of my hubs are featured.
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psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago
I was happy to go with the official advice of "ignoring" the score until this thread showed me it is used by Hubpages to determine things like when hubs are idled. They can't have it both ways. It either matters or it doesn't.
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years ago
For the record, Miss Olive's mysteriously drop in her Hubber score is precisely why I posted this thread. There are other examples of conflicting quality, content, activity and scoring, too, so Miss Olive is just one of many people who have lost Hubber points (whatever in the heck they stand for), is widely known to have outstanding work here, has good traffic, and is bewildered as to what happened.

I've mentioned before in this thread that it is like living through Animal Farm - one day you're 'trusted' or whatever euphemism is bring used here, and the next day you're less so.

Yes, Miss Olive deserves to know what the heck is going on here. We all do. And we deserve to have this information made useful (rather than confusing, contradictory and a big secret). We also deserve to have any 'numbers' related to us to be private, not public. It's fine to have internal mechanisms that feature, unfeature or otherwise maneuver reader traffic based on algos here - that's HP's business right. But we do not deserve to have worthless numbers stuck in front of our faces.
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  HollieTposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  It mirrors a Google slap- no reason, but you're sandboxed.
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  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  I couldn't agree more, I've been reading her hubs and there is nothing but good content contained within, well written, well though out with dollops of wit here and there. Superb.
  
  There's a 100 club member who writes little more than soft porn, pedestrian in it's cheesy gawd, yet the content between them can hardly be compared.
  
  I'm stunned.
  
  This is the number viewers see immediately upon visiting the hubsites. If it were someone checking this place out for the first tine and seeing such conflicting numbers after reading some hubs, they might assume the folks running this place didn't know what they're doing.
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HollieTposted 10 years ago
I would imagine that in the past HP have become very frustrated when they've approached Google and asked for guidance when it comes to improving the site's quality and increasing traffic, after all, their livelihoods are equally affected . The frustration is shared by all those who want to meet whatever quality standards Google have determined but have found the directions, not only vague, but in some instances misleading. Write quality content, write about what you know, use quality images, don't be over promotional etc. seems like good advice, and many people have followed it, yet still been penalized.

Likewise, the advice for improving hubber scores offers the same kind of general, vague and whisy- washy information. Sounds great, but even when adhered to delivers little. How can we improve our hubberscores when we've followed all the advice, yet still loose several points on a regular basis?

If HP have decided that hubber scores should stay, if they have decided that's how the quality of the writer should be assessed, wouldn't it make sense to be more honest about how those quality ratings are calculated? At least give us something to aim for.
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Writer Foxposted 10 years ago
We want Missolive's Hubber score raised!
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  missoliveposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Did you just hear an audible gasp around the world? That was me!
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  Marcy Goodfleischposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Your Fan Club is speaking!!!
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  cclitgirlposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, we want Missolive's score raised. Hear, HEAR!
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A Troubled Manposted 10 years ago
Here's another initiative for the initiative. Publish and explain the "quality data" and the adaptations when they occur. How can anyone understand the impact when they don't know what it is or how it works?

So far, we have seen Hubscores and Hubbscores are reflective of the 'intentional and unpredictable' fluctuations, and 'It is best not to put too much emphasis on them' or 'It does have importance',

It's just seems so wishy washy. Maybe it just wasn't a good idea and needs to be shelved.
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Writer Foxposted 10 years ago
Bernie Madoff has a really high number.
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mjkearnposted 10 years ago
Hi Marcy

I don't visit the forums often because I have more than enough conflicts going on in my own little head without volunteering for more. Just happened upon this one by chance.

Hubber Score!! What a Yo-Yo?? What a palaver?? And more appropriately; What a Hubbub??
I do less, the score goes up. I do more, the score goes down. It never seems to stabilize except for a time when I did very very little and it settled at about 75 which I felt was perfectly fair.

I should say that I am not a writer nor am I trying to be a writer. I am simply a man with a lot of practical skills offering my knowledge to anyone who is interested. The point that I am making is, there are a huge number of writers on this site. People whose training and careers are writing. People, who use words to evoke emotions in other people. This I believe is the real gift or talent of writing.

I don't much care for the Hubber Score but I do feel those who know more, do more and are more popular deserve more. In other words there should be some indication and recognition for a job well done. Take accolades for example you have a set of requirements and if you attain them you are rewarded with said accolade.

I would have thought those who are good, do a fantastic job and support the site through their efforts should somehow be rewarded. I personally feel this award should be visible to all who visit them to say this person is a person of quality. Someone, who knows what they are doing and an important link in the whole HP community. This way the rest of us have someone to look up to, someone to follow and something to emulate.

I think some form of merit is required to set the standard and show all what is required. If this standard is met then it should be clearly visible and stable.

Hubber Score is certainly not the measure of what is good and bad or who is worthy and who is not. It is like a share price, rising and falling without reason and providing the holder with a bigger pain in the ass than they need or deserve.

HP has shown me that they do their own thing regardless of criticism, morality or the right thing to do.

Having offered to delete my account on two separate occasions for attempting to argue a valid point, HP has lost a lot of my respect. The HP community on the other hand is a wonderful thing and I am extremely honored to be a part of it.

It is clear from this discussion alone that a significant proportion of the community feel that Hubber Score is a waste of time, a distraction and a useless measure of their talent and efforts.

I have had the pleasure of meeting numerous genuine people on this site but one so far stands out from the crowd. A man, a writer, a published author and one who individually answers every comment. A man who visits and supports no matter what rubbish I scribble. A man who does so much for the community spirit and who offers help and assistance to anyone who would listen or ask.

More importantly a man who has published a hub-a-day for 17 months bringing his total to 506 hubs. A man who cares not a jot for Hubber Score, accolades or rewards. To most this man needs no introduction but to those who do not know him, his name is Billybuc or Sir Bill as I like to call him and you would be a wiser better person if you pay him a visit.

I believe that even a permanent Hubber Score of 100 would not justify this hubber's activities on this site or in the community.

A better, fairer system of recognition is so overdue that it should surely be embarrassing to the HP Powers that be.

At the very least a system that mere mortals can relate to and understand would surely be a step in the right direction.

Thanks for listening.

MJ.
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1. 95
  sallybeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this
  Well said MJ. I seldom frequent the forum either but like you, this one caught my eye. I second the Billybuc advice.
  reply report
53
janderson99posted 10 years ago
Save Simone's score before she goes 100-> 99-> 98-> 93-> 94-> ?????
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/113172
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