Thou hast clothed me, warmed and fed me...
100- Paraglider
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When very young, about 4 years old, I was taught to say the prayer 'Jesus tender Shepherd hear me' every night before sleeping. In the Summer I was to say it before getting into bed. In the Winter, with no heating in the attic bedroom and ice forming on the windows, it was OK to get into bed first, then say it.
I remember finding the words vaguely comforting but not very sensible. I knew Jesus's job was to watch me sleeping - watch my sleep till morning light though I had no idea how he did that. But the line I couldn't understand was - Thou hast clothed me, warmed and fed me because I knew perfectly well that my mum had done that. I remember asking my older brother about this, but he just said - it's bad to ask things like that which didn't help at all.
So my question is, does anyone think it is appropriate to initiate children into the rituals of faith before they are old enough to understand what they are saying? Wouldn't it be better to hold back until they are of an age to understand and question? At least then we would know that faith was a genuine informed choice.A child development starts from age zero. We start to form their personality, values and principles at an early age. I suggests that you can expose them to your family religion and beliefs. In this way, you help prepare them to face the bigger world. However, you can give them a leeway to choose their own when they are already old enough to understand. You can guide them but you cannot control them. Have a great week!
86- tantrum
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TINA V wrote:
A child development starts from age zero. We start to form their personality, values and principles at an early age. I suggests that you can expose them to your family religion and beliefs. In this way, you help prepare them to face the bigger world. However, you can give them a leeway to choose their own when they are already old enough to understand. You can guide them but you cannot control them. Have a great week!
first you say that you form you children's personality in an early age.Which is a way of control
then you say that you cannot control your child .
so what is it ?
you can control or you can't ?
And weekend is ages from today!
Anyway have a good weekend !I don't think it's appropriate to initiate children, but as you know the delusion of religion is so compelling that people won't be able to stop themselves from baptising and telling these lies to their children as soon as possible, because they, most likely, received the same initiation.
And even if the parents don't, society will step in and do the initiation. Given most children no chance at having a choice later in life.- 100
- Paraglider
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TINA V wrote:
A child development starts from age zero. We start to form their personality, values and principles at an early age. I suggests that you can expose them to your family religion and beliefs. In this way, you help prepare them to face the bigger world. However, you can give them a leeway to choose their own when they are already old enough to understand. You can guide them but you cannot control them. Have a great week!
But are you helping them if you encourage them to believe what they can't understand? Or are you risking damaging their ability to think for themselves? Of course you have to give guidance to children, but is it acceptable to ask them to mimic faith? I think not.
50- Evolution Guy
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Paraglider wrote:
TINA V wrote:
A child development starts from age zero. We start to form their personality, values and principles at an early age. I suggests that you can expose them to your family religion and beliefs. In this way, you help prepare them to face the bigger world. However, you can give them a leeway to choose their own when they are already old enough to understand. You can guide them but you cannot control them. Have a great week!
But are you helping them if you encourage them to believe what they can't understand? Or are you risking damaging their ability to think for themselves? Of course you have to give guidance to children, but is it acceptable to ask them to mimic faith? I think not.
But this is how they get you. This sort of early indoctrination is very, very difficult to break free from.
Loyola had it down. It will take generations to break free from this religiosity we are forced to suckle as babes.
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getitrite wrote:
I don't think it's appropriate to initiate children, but as you know the delusion of religion is so compelling that people won't be able to stop themselves from baptising and telling these lies to their children as soon as possible, because they, most likely, received the same initiation.
And even if the parents don't, society will step in and do the initiation. Given most children no chance at having a choice later in life.getitrite - I don't think you can call something a lie just because it is not true, in cases where the teller believes it true. I think lying implies deliberate deceit, not simple error.
46- Elena Erykah
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I remember as a child when my father brought me a ilustrated bible for children:)) Till than, all I knew about biblical events was from movies, and that small bible full of colerfull pictures was somothing that I joyfully read:)) I'd say you start step by step! If children are very sensitive than make sure you don't scare tham with big words:)
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- tantrum
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Elena Erykah wrote:
I remember as I child when my father brought me a ilustrated bible for children:)) Till than, all I knew about biblical events was from movies, and that small bible full of colerfull pictures was somothing that I joyfully read:)) I'd say you start step by step! If children are very sensitive than make sure you don't scare tham with big words:)
Yes!you should be careful not to scare them from 'believing ' !
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- Evolution Guy
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Elena Erykah wrote:
I remember as I child when my father brought me a ilustrated bible for children:)) Till than, all I knew about biblical events was from movies, and that small bible full of colerfull pictures was somothing that I joyfully read:)) I'd say you start step by step! If children are very sensitive than make sure you don't scare tham with big words:)
LOL
Way to miss the point. NIce
Or were you being ironic? - 46
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tantrum wrote:
Elena Erykah wrote:
I remember as I child when my father brought me a ilustrated bible for children:)) Till than, all I knew about biblical events was from movies, and that small bible full of colerfull pictures was somothing that I joyfully read:)) I'd say you start step by step! If children are very sensitive than make sure you don't scare tham with big words:)
Yes!you should be careful not to scare them from 'believing ' !
c c c you people just enjoy misinterpretating:))))haah:)
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- Elena Erykah
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Evolution Guy wrote:
Elena Erykah wrote:
I remember as I child when my father brought me a ilustrated bible for children:)) Till than, all I knew about biblical events was from movies, and that small bible full of colerfull pictures was somothing that I joyfully read:)) I'd say you start step by step! If children are very sensitive than make sure you don't scare tham with big words:)
LOL
Way to miss the point. NIce
Or were you being ironic?And the point is that you're always right?
)) Nice;) - 100
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Evolution Guy wrote:
But this is how they get you. This sort of early indoctrination is very, very difficult to break free from.
Loyola had it down. It will take generations to break free from this religiosity we are forced to suckle as babes.To be fair to my parents, there was no force involved. I know plenty people who were catechized with a leather belt (literally beaten for not knowing the right responses, by Irish nun teachers in West Scotland Catholic schools). This is clearly abuse by any measure. But what I'm talking about is far more subtle. It could be called cultural. And as a matter of fact, western literature is incomprehensible without a knowledge of the beliefs prevalent when it was written.
My feeling is that the beliefs should be taught as information (some people believe x, others y) but not as fact, and not until the child is old enough to evaluate them rationally. - 86
- tantrum
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Elena Erykah wrote:
tantrum wrote:
Elena Erykah wrote:
I remember as I child when my father brought me a ilustrated bible for children:)) Till than, all I knew about biblical events was from movies, and that small bible full of colerfull pictures was somothing that I joyfully read:)) I'd say you start step by step! If children are very sensitive than make sure you don't scare tham with big words:)
Yes!you should be careful not to scare them from 'believing ' !
c c c you people just enjoy misinterpretating:))))haah:)
???????
Even with irony or not, I'm not misinterpreting anything ! - 46
- Elena Erykah
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Paraglider wrote:
Evolution Guy wrote:
But this is how they get you. This sort of early indoctrination is very, very difficult to break free from.
Loyola had it down. It will take generations to break free from this religiosity we are forced to suckle as babes.To be fair to my parents, there was no force involved. I know plenty people who were catechized with a leather belt (literally beaten for not knowing the right responses, by Irish nun teachers in West Scotland Catholic schools). This is clearly abuse by any measure. But what I'm talking about is far more subtle. It could be called cultural. And as a matter of fact, western literature is incomprehensible without a knowledge of the beliefs prevalent when it was written.
My feeling is that the beliefs should be taught as information (some people believe x, others y) but not as fact, and not until the child is old enough to evaluate them rationally.I agree on this Paraglider:)
94- Quilligrapher
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Paraglider wrote:
So my question is, does anyone think it is appropriate to initiate children into the rituals of faith before they are old enough to understand what they are saying? Wouldn't it be better to hold back until they are of an age to understand and question? At least then we would know that faith was a genuine informed choice.
I would guess that you have spent more time thinking about your question than I have about my answer. Yet, I will offer a three-part response for your consideration: Yes, No, and I would hope so.
1. Is it “appropriate to initiate children into the rituals of faith before they are old enough to understand what they are saying?” Yes, in deed. I assume that those doing the initiating are parents, or their surrogates, who are mature adults who have questioned and fully understand the spiritual ethics they themselves use to guide their own lives. If they truly believe these same ethics will benefit their children then they are indeed obligated to instill these beliefs as early in the child’s development as is practical. Their duty to teach, train, and rear follows closely behind their responsibility to feed and nourish.
2. “Wouldn't it be better to hold back until they are of an age to understand and question?” I think it would not. A child can begin to develop the habit of daily prayer even though he may not fully understand why he needs to pray at all. Further, should a child be denied a seat at a Seder because she is too young to fully understand all of the symbols relating to her family’s rich heritage? Even if parts of the Koran are still beyond his comprehension, a young man can certainly learn to make time in his life to attend services at his Mosque.
3. “Then we would know that faith was a genuine informed choice.” To which I reply, “I would hope so.” Every child, I hope, will reach a level of maturity at which they should question and understand the principles taught to them by their parents and, from that process, they should adopt the spiritual ethics they will use to guide them in their future. I have seen no research that suggests early religious training damages one’s ability to think. That is not saying that parental, cultural, or social pressures do not exist. Nor do I subscribe to the notion that it is very, very difficult to break free from early religious training. For if this was true, the United States would see church attendance increasing every year which, as we know, it is not. On the contrary, there appears to be a trend here in which former church members are rejecting some of the rites and tenets endorsed by their parents. While they are accused from the pulpit of practicing cafeteria style religion, they are, in fact, making a genuine choice. How informed these choices are, however, may be the subject of another question at another time.- 100
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Q - good response, thank you. Your use of the phrase 'spiritual ethics' is an interesting one. I am in no doubt about the value of teaching basic ethics from the earliest stages in a child's development, but not convinced by the need to link understandable ethics to mystical concepts. (In fact this is the subject of my newest hub - you might care to visit). You see, I think there is a danger that some, unable to accept the metaphysical aspects, reject the whole package, simply because it has been presented as a package. Whereas Ethics does not require a religious framework.
95- Lita Sorensen
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Just perhaps echoing what other people have said here, Paraglider--I think there is a way to communicate religion in a cultural way to kids without indoctrination. I feel my parents did an OK job with this...perhaps because my father was much more of a cynic when it came to religion that my mother, lol. I got both perspectives (my mother was Catholic, and I was raised Catholic).
I just do not feel that learning a cultural faith tradition has to equal what we all hate (or most moderate people do) about religion...not all turn out as 'religionists,' ie.
But absolutely, I feel that ultimately it is the child's decision to find out what they believe spiritually and that their minds should be opened to all possibilities (the best teaching).
80- mohitmisra
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Paraglider wrote:
When very young, about 4 years old, I was taught to say the prayer 'Jesus tender Shepherd hear me' every night before sleeping. In the Summer I was to say it before getting into bed. In the Winter, with no heating in the attic bedroom and ice forming on the windows, it was OK to get into bed first, then say it.
I remember finding the words vaguely comforting but not very sensible. I knew Jesus's job was to watch me sleeping - watch my sleep till morning light though I had no idea how he did that. But the line I couldn't understand was - Thou hast clothed me, warmed and fed me because I knew perfectly well that my mum had done that. I remember asking my older brother about this, but he just said - it's bad to ask things like that which didn't help at all.
So my question is, does anyone think it is appropriate to initiate children into the rituals of faith before they are old enough to understand what they are saying? Wouldn't it be better to hold back until they are of an age to understand and question? At least then we would know that faith was a genuine informed choice.This has a deeper meaning.
"Who am I to give?
Who am I to forgive?"
Things happen through us but we are like puppets in this play and god is the guiding force behind everything.
I agree with what you are saying about allowing the child to grow up before making his choice or indoctrinating them at a young age.
We had poojas and prayer in my home when I was young but my parents never forced me to believe, the choice was left to me.
Then the parents are just guiding their kids which is their job.Some may not believe god exists but if he does then the parents are not doing something wrong by telling them about god.- 100
- Paraglider
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Lita and Mohit - thanks for these responses. I think we are largely agreeing that it is a matter of degree. For example, I see nothing wrong with parents continuing their traditions e.g. of asking a blessing before meals, in the child's presence. If the child is interested, s/he will ask about it in time. But I think that's a level below telling the child - remember to say your prayers before you get into bed.
(BTW - I'm not complaining about my upbringing; my parents were both great, PBUT)
