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Understanding where "I" am coming from

  1. jonnycomelately profile image86
    jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago

    The to-and-fro of argument, agreement, disagreement has got me wondering:  If each of us has a belief, a set of values to suit our self, in keeping with the religious concepts we are attached to and  embrace, can we come to some kind of consensus about what is fundamental, central, to living a civilized  life in an integrated society?
    If each of us, whether Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or Jehovah's Witness or Pagan or Atheist --- whichever religion you like to think of --- were willing to separate the values which are specific to the particular belief structure from the core, fundamental factors for a civilized society, let's find out from all who are reading this, what YOU regard as the core, fundamental factors.   
    Please, think carefully about this.   See if what you accept as "true" for your life is specific to your faith/belief, or whether it is something general which can apply to us all, regardless of belief.

    1. kess profile image61
      kessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      The problem is created not necessarily because of the diverging opinions presented, but more by the arrogance of the presenters.

      All things is True

      There is nothing true except the Truth.

      Truth works for one and works for all.

      All are aware of Truth except those who do not believe that they are.

      You begin to believe that you are unaware of the Truth when you desire the lie more than Truth.

      The Lie gives birth to arrogance and arrogance causes you to cling to the lie.

      Humility alone restore the Truth.

      The many various conflicting ideas usually strengthens the lie rather than show the Truth.

      The arrogant do not desire the Truth

      Those who desire Truth are humble.

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        riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Arurukshor muner yoga,
        Karmakaranamuchyathe.
        Yogarudasiyathasayva,
        Shamakaranamuchyathe.

        1. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          That sounds beautiful.  Can you translate for us please?

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            riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Only the sound is good!
            It means, roughly
            Whoever tries to climb the horse(attain knowledge), work is the their way
            Whoever is seated on the horse(attained knowledge), abstinence(and thought)[I do not know the exact word] is their way.

      2. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thanks Kess.

    2. 0
      mikeq107posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Great honest question ;0) here is my take or $10 worth !!!

      Where in the world is God today?
      In this fast paced modern Hi Tech internet age has He fallen behind like the rest of the people who refused to conform to the latest craze or fad? Did He pack His bags and head off to a distant planet to start all over again? Only this time no forbidden fruit on a tree and Satan has been left behind to terrorize those that did not make the grade.
      If you look at the growth of religious orders and gospels and mega churches He should be able to find a welcome spot. Or have they all just a knowledge of Him or more to the point taken some of His Son's many words and published their version of the Gospel of Jesus and would not know him if he showed up in person? Or maybe he would not meet the educational "No Saint left behind requirements"!
      Many of these well meaning organizations have myriads of information on Him and His creation, and followers can quote many of His sacred scriptures, but then again volumes have been written on Shakespeare by people who claim to be authorities on good old Will, but they have never even talked or shared a beer with the guy! Yet for some reason known only to themselves, know how he lived, felt, and thought. Sounds kind of crazy, and yet if Will came back to life and walked among them would they accept him into their fold? Or would they have painted such an unrealistic picture of him that they would call him an impostor and politely ask him to leave? Book him into a mental hotel or Find him a place on Jerry Springer...." See Willy slap the Dickens out of Prince Charles live on Springer!!!!
      I think its time someone yelled stop the bus! And let's see who is actually on it..... and why we let them on in the first place? Many of us from birth because of the environment we were raised in have been yoked with burdens that were never a predestined load to bear and all this has accomplished so far (For some of us!) is the slowing down and hindering of our growth and wellbeing.
      For example if you grew up in a religious organization you were at an early age introduced to their doctrinal lenses on the world around you.
      After a while you could become a clone, marry a clone and produce more clones.
      Sounds exciting!!! Amen!
      On the other hand you could have had non religious parents who were independent free thinkers and encouraged you to explore and discover the ends of the earth and live a vibrant life. With encouragement like that the world would be your Oyster and you would be a cool person to hang out with and your of spring would be fruitful and multiply? (Sounds real attractive to me)
      Then of course you could have grown up in a drug, alcohol, dysfunctional family environment. Learned how to yell, fight, self sabotage and in general live a very depressing and unhealthy life, you know! Marry, Divorce, Re Marry produce more unhappy Fagan's (Oliver twist), who unless they received some serious intervention would carry on the family tradition and be the butt end of comedians jokes. The chances of an early checkout in that sinario are pretty good!
      Another case that could find a home in the first and third paragraph above is race and color and that has been the catalyst for some pretty distraous consequences on account of mans false illusions about his superiority.
      Now if our mental heath is dependent upon the environment we have grown up in! Then Darwin's theory of the survival of the fittest would most definitely come into play and the world would be a very unfair place, would it not. Just ask your local Rabbi! But that's not happening is it?
      Ok! Now ask yourself if there is a God...Where in the world is he in all of this, I mean why would he create man and then let him of the leash only to mess up the backyard and scare of the neighbors. Is this the loving thing to-do?
      If you look at the last 2000 years we have had one religious war after another. The middle east, northern Ireland, The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, WW2( Yes Hitler believed he was doing gods work by eradicating the Jewish population), Bosnia . So if God is a religious God I sure don't want to meet him and most defiantly not on a bad day.
      Maybe he is in corporate America? Then again they don't really have a head just a breathing mass of hungry share holders and some for some reason known only to themselves are always hungry for more and will never be satisfied.
      Yes maybe there are some corporations that do genuinely care, can't think of any at the moment lol. But they do care about their public image and the good old bottom line and if you have ever had a pink slip then you know all about corporate unconditional love, no security there!
      Now I don't think he lives in statues or religious artifacts because if that was the case you could buy him take home and pop him up on the mantel piece or nail him to the wall. Better still stick your old bath tub out in the front lawn end up and depending on which God is in vogue proudly display it, kneel before it, and ask it lots of questions even pray to it.
      I have news for you whether its made of wood, alabaster or a precious metal it wont answer you back and if it did your property would be declared a scared spot and there goes your peace and quiet as you struggle home through the candle awed multitudes.
      I have lived in this country (North America) since June 25th 1988 and while I love the vastness and beauty of this contentment I'm not in love with American Christianity. My journey through the American churches has been sadly disappointing. I came here with a passion for God and all that he has to offer us. I expected (naively) that the church here would be just as passionate, but I was greatly disappointed. You see I had and still have a wonderful love for god and the glorious wonders and life he has to offer through an intimate relationship with him.
      Over the past 20 years I have only met a hand full of people who were thoroughly passionate about God, the vast majority had a knowledge about him or were more concerned about their status before others or telling other Christians how they should live their lives or building their own kingdoms and bringing converts into the same bondage as themselves
      . In short I believe God brought me to this country to teach me how to love the lost sheep of his flock and it has been very hard class to take! Many times I have wanted to quit. But as I slowly progress and gain his understanding of unconditional love I gain understanding of how he feels by the churches rejection of his love
      . All God wanted in the very beginning was a relationship with Adam and eve. It was so simple! God having healthy fellowship with his creation. They talked about everything and laughed at each others humor , there were no big list of rules to follow except one don't eat the fruit of just one tree....that was it!
      Yes we all know the rest of the story and the resulting fall out. The world has not lived in peace since and will not until it surrenders its false illusions of grandeur and superiority at the foot of his throne and accepts the free gift of his son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. There is no other way, the struggle has been going on for centuries and will continue until Jesus returns to claim those that love and follow him and those that have rejected him will tragically not enter into his eternal peace and life everlasting.
      So where is God? He is here right now ready and willing to enter your life and the best way to ask him in is to ask him or his son Jesus to give you the faith to believe that they exist and leave the rest up to him and not to religion......

      Michael :0)

      1. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Michael, thank you for your "take" on things.   It was a long read but worth it.

        However, in the context of this discussion, you have presented your point of view which is founded in your religion.   What do you see as the fundamentals of life without the embellishments of christianity? 

        If you find it difficult to answer because of your christian background, I will understand that.

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          mikeq107posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Sure would love to and not difficult at all..and thank you for reading such along reply  :0)....but just got in and will write early am ...

          cheers

          Michael :0)

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          mikeq107posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          ... I recently came back from a 67 day trip to Maui. I went there to face some Fears..(Oh by the way I don't go to church every thing I believe is from revelation but I will leave that here as we are not discussing beliefs Haha)

          My reason for going to Maui was to see if the island and its people would accept me...not for what I believe but as a person ,A hoale, just me Michael Quinlan an Irish man with all my good and bad traits.

          Long story in brief :0)
          If I was to sum up my 67 days in three words it would be unconditional human love.
          Love I know is the most powerful weapon on this earth, it drove out an Empire Thank you Gandhi.....

          On Maui I met and lived with people of many cultures on the beaches and finally for my last stretch was invited to stay with  a Hawaiian Family  5 weeks and will be returning to Maui shortly with my Wife to live , not sure what part of the island yet it will be an adventure.

          The people group I had the hardest time being around during my visit where the religious people and in that group I include religious Christians also...for the most part the vast majority of these groups were in bondage to rules and conformity. They kept trying to fit me into some kind of box or convert me and as I,m truly not a religious man but a free thinker who accepted them unconditionally they had a hard time returning that love.

          So What is the recipe for us all to get along....for me it would be genuine agape, unconditional love regardless of race or creed.
          True story
          This soldier returns home from WW2 and as he opens the gate of his front yard he see`s his German Shepard dog, he runs to the dog and they have a wonderful reunion as they rumble on the lawn. He then goes into the house and is embraced by his parents after  emotions settle down abit his parents inform him of some bad news.
          They tell him that his dog was killed by a truck while he was a way and the new dog out in the yard attacks and bites everyone that crosses its pat. He looks puzzled , explains that was not the case when he arrived.
          So he returns to the yard only this time with some fear , trepidation and yes the dog attacks and bites him. He went in fear and the dog responded in fear...ok I know you get it.

          I have a friend who just recently faced a fear by going to live in Iran as an American for 6 months, he had heard how all Iranians were bad and of the devil.
          Well he decided to go and live among his so called enemy and he went with unconditional love , had a great time and returned with many friends.

          I have lived among many cultures in this world and without any exception( in my experience) I have found that true unconditional love and patientance will open a multitude of doors and Fear spelled... False Evidence Appearing Real...will close many and build great walls.

          Thanks enjoyed responding to your  Question Johnny :0)

          1. jonnycomelately profile image86
            jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            What a wonderful picture you paint.... thanks Michael. +++

            And thanks for staying on topic.  I would encourage others to do the same, without wishing to cloud their thinking.

          2. wilderness profile image97
            wildernessposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            I think you're right - most peoples the world over act as mirrors.  Face the mirror of a stranger with love and that's what you'll see coming your way. 

            Not all people, of course, but more than enough to be worth facing the world with love rather than suspicion and fear.

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              Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Sounds right.

    3. tsmog profile image84
      tsmogposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I am not sure if I have an answer. The first learing lesson I learned as a child holds true in life in general and with specifics. It both seems to apply to the physical life I live and the non-physical, e.g virtural universe. That was when children we played follow the leader all day long. The funny part is the teacher always walked a few steps to the side and meandered at times backward and forward maintainining some uniformity to the line.

      In essence it begins with "who is first?" Hands go up and by some means - chosen or vote, a first does become. An entity identified with some essence as a life form. Next, is the next in line. The relationship becomes a first and a next. Some may say a leader and a follower. Even if the teacher does not lead from the beginning of the line instructions, guidance, directions, or near to offers the next.

      Soon a classroom of children are a single line now formed. They each have a leader and each has a follower in one perspective. There is a last one. The last one hasn't a follower. The first one is offered directions, guidance, instructions from the teacher, who, again, usually becomes first, maybe last, and usually walks alongside. Without oddity those instructions, guiding words, directions are offered to the last in near to the same proportion. The same ritual was practiced with the armies since time began.

      Using the classroom analogy we discover of maybe 10 - 20 students the last in line does have a unique advantage. Depending on physical limitations they usually can see everyone. Remembering betwixt and between are those who do follow and do lead. With a humourous giggle I remember the teacher may have moved ahead or off to the side further to meet with other teachers while keeping a watchful and caring eye on the line.

      Depending on rigidity and etc. of the teacher the line holds to a form. Eventually they each arrive at the point of destination, which could be the classroom from the playground, the cafeteria from the classroom, the playground from the class room, and etc.

      Well, I ask forgiveness for wandering a tad. I do share with the scouting program when I was a lad in West Virginia the philsophy was always to place the slower hikers up front and the better hikers toward the rear with the large group outings. Seems those better would fade back a ways talking and such and then speed up to catch up when the leader on the side offered guidance, instructions, or directions.

      Thanks for asking Jonnycomelately,

      I will ponder a bit and a byte longer and check back,

      tim

    4. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      This thread is getting very much off-track, and tending to degenerate to where all the other relio-arguments have ended up.
      Can we get back to the original question do you think?   Keeping it positive and focused on your personal perspectives would help.   A lot of people here have given us some sensible, well considered points of view.  Let's keep it that way.

  2. moonfroth profile image82
    moonfrothposted 3 years ago

    The mainstream religions seem to have two roles--1) to demand conformity to a set of rules designed to sustain the religion itself and 2) to provide rules of behavior designed to keep society orderly and productive.  Moses's 10 commandments are popularly held up as the core standard for the Christan faith----

    The Ten Commandments

    You shall have no other Gods but me.
    You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
    You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
    You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
    Respect your father and mother.
    You must not kill.
    You must not commit adultery.
    You must not steal.
    You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
    You must not be envious of your neighbour's goods. You shall not be envious of his house nor his wife, nor anything that belongs to your neighbour.

    The first 4 address a), the remaining 6 address b).  Setting aside the first 4, which are self-serving To Christianity itself, the remaining are pretty fundamental  if a society is to sutvive at all..  I can think of no society in the history of the world that said it was ok to kill when you wanted, have sex at will outside your  marriage, steal when you felt like it.....etc.  A society that DID so condone would be in chaos.  So IMO, Jonny, there are your Core Values.  Now surely--AS LONG AS WE SET ASIDE the first 4  Commandments, everyone reading this will agree, yes?

    1. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Excellent!   I had never thought of it in that context before.  Thank you.

    2. 0
      riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Agreed.

      Isn't it superflous, implied in all the rest?

      With a clause, except to protect yourself.

      Em!!! What is it? Is it universal?

      1. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        smile

        Can you add something new from you own perspective, Riddle666?

        1. 0
          riddle666posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Yup, do not harm oneself nor others. Help oneself and if possible others too.

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          Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Perhaps some words against slavery?

          Perhaps some words against beating children?

          Perhaps some words about respecting children? Would have made it easier for some to respect the parents.

          How is it resolved that we are told not to kill, unless directed by God or now country? How do Christians rationalize killing for country given these commandments? Surely most of the secular countries have far exceeded there laws.

  3. wilderness profile image97
    wildernessposted 3 years ago

    Do unto others as you would they do unto you.  From around the world:

    And if thine eyes be turned towards justice, choose thou for thy neighbour that which thou choosest for thyself.  (Bahá'í Faith)

    Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. (buddhism)

    Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.  (Matthew 7:12)

    Zi gong (a disciple of Confucius) asked: "Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?"
    The Master replied: "How about 'shu' [reciprocity]: never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself?  (confucianism)

    One should never do that to another which one regards as injurious to one’s own self. This, in brief, is the rule of dharma. Other behavior is due to selfish desires  (Hinduism)

    Do not do to others what you would not want them to do to you  (humanism)

    As you would have people do to you, do to them; and what you dislike to be done to you, don't do to them  (Hadith of Islam)

    That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn it  (The Torah of Judaism)

    For one would do for others as one would do for oneself.  (Mohism)

    I command thee thus, O children of the Earth, that that which ye deem harmful unto thyself, the very same shall ye be forbidden from doing unto another  (Dea, mother goddess of Wicca)



    Almost universally accepted, anything else is superfluous.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      "A rich common ground."

  4. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    I do get the point which you are attempting to make
    I wonder if this is not what Constantine was attempting to do when he called many of the religious leaders together in 326AD.    I think I read someplace that there were 75 or 76 of them, who’s teaching varied according to the specific “Letters” which they had in their position.                                                       
    To bring all of these beliefs together and then attempt to get to the bottom of it, finding a “Universal” foundation upon which to build a New and Improved religion.
    This seems to me to be similar to finding the perfect cake recipe .   In order to please everyone, we must keep it basic. Everyone doesn’t like cinnamon and some people can not eat eggs, etc.  So now we have a cake recipe consisting of the basics;  Baking powder, flour and sugar and water.  When we try to please everyone, no one will be completely satisfied.

    Seeing as how there seems to be such contradicting doctrines within Christianity and Islam, a reasonable person should at least attempt to discover when and where these divisions occurred and why?

    1. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Maybe arrogance, as suggested by Kess in his post above.  Maybe fear, i.e., fear of difference, fear of the unknown, fear of opening up in dialogue.

  5. marion langley profile image60
    marion langleyposted 3 years ago

    ok, I'll bite. :-)  I suspect what would be "fundamental...to living a civilized life in an integrated society" is appreciation. Maybe that's where we get hung up...why we should appreciate each other. Seems like most educated societies can agree to appreciate our galaxy, our planet, our flora and fauna, but we still struggle to appreciate other people and sometimes even ourselves. I wonder what it is that stalls us...fear of being taken advatage of?...resentment of competition?

    1. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Do you think that Competition might be a natural integral part of human life?  Is it something we can't get away from (for some people at least), yet properly managed can add zest to anyone's life?  Is it fundamental?

  6. 60
    teacheratlargeposted 3 years ago

    Competition is an element that destroys life and happiness. Competition creates animosity, greed, and dysfunction. Cooperation, on the other hand, invites order, acceptance, appreciation, and vulnerability. Competition can be considered an integral part of nature because living things learn to fend for themselves, which results in the creation of ousting others in order to achieve that which one needs. However, in humans with higher order thinking, we should learn how to achieve through collaboration rather than through competition. That is called "sharing".

  7. vveasey profile image82
    vveaseyposted 3 years ago

    Very interesting mikeq107
    but If god and his son exist why do we have to " ask him or his son Jesus to give you the faith to believe that they exist"? If they exist, Why  don't they just show us they exist? Wouldn't that end all of this endless speculation and bickering between people about  if God exists and what he thinks, will or won't do and so on and so on AD Nauseum?

    1. A Thousand Words profile image79
      A Thousand Wordsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Of course, but God forbid our lives be simpler. LoL. Apparently He'd rather give "subtle" hints than make it plain as day for everyone all at once, all the time. But this kind of logic never works with most christians.

      1. vveasey profile image82
        vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Of course that kind of logic dosen't work because, what they believe is based on belief. No amount of logic, reasoning or evidence to the contrary will ever get true believers to question what they passionately believe. Their beliefs shields them from any questions or doubts that may shake up that calm and security their beliefs makes them feel. Like a pacifier, pacifies a baby. Anyone can believe anything that want to believe whether it's true or not.
        Now before someone gets all bent out of shape about what I said. Let me say, I don't mean what i said to be insulting or in a insulting way. That's just the way I see it.

        1. A Thousand Words profile image79
          A Thousand Wordsposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Well, people always get bent out of shape. But you're correct in your assessment. (Former Christian here. Getting that pacifier snatched from you is difficult, especially if you hold on to it for dear life).

          1. vveasey profile image82
            vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Yep can be terrifying!

    2. 0
      mikeq107posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Haha good one you two...I can honestly say that what i have experienced from about God has not come from man or religious institutions or even might I dare add the bible..... I just began to question everything and asked the man in the sky ...thank you the Late George Carlin :0) to reveal himself to me and he did. and thank you god it was not in some church or by some belief system or man..can I prove to you or anyone else that he exists ? not on your life ,I don't have the answer for you,thats up to you guys to seek and ask for yourselves ...all I can say is that I know personally and its been and still is a wild and wonderful ride....yippy Ki Yayyy...have a great weekend!!!!
      Michael :0)

      1. vveasey profile image82
        vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Michael
        The man up in the sky? You're joking right?
        When and where did you first learn the word God and who gave your first idea/concept of God and how old were you?

        1. 0
          mikeq107posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Deleted

          1. jonnycomelately profile image86
            jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Oh?!!!!   Not in 1962 it wasn't.   I only got my little TANDY 100 in 1986 and wrote all the programs for my business in BASIC.  There was no "Windows" and no "Internet" even then, it was all infant DOS.

            Correct me if that is wrong, someone, please.

            Michael, please write your own Hub instead sending us Part 2.  It's much too long for a discussion thread.

      2. soldout777 profile image61
        soldout777posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Continue your wild and wondeful ride Mike:) God bless

        1. 0
          mikeq107posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Thanks sold-out ...love the name !!!!

          Cheers :0)

  8. marion langley profile image60
    marion langleyposted 3 years ago

    Wow Michael, you really gave this your attention, thank-you for sharing that with us. He is risen indeed :-)

    1. 0
      mikeq107posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Your welcome it was a fun think...Cheers ;0)

  9. 0
    Sooner28posted 3 years ago

    This is a really interesting question, but I'm not quite sure how to answer.

    Ideally, since I am an atheist and I don't believe in an afterlife, I'd like to live in an anarchist-communist paradise on earth, but I doubt that will ever happen.  People suck too much for that tongue.

    But for the religious, I'm not sure they can completely rid themselves of their beliefs.  If you believe in God and an afterlife, this life is temporary; the only thing permanent about it is your decision whether to accept or reject "God's grace."  This life becomes much less important.

    My core values are pretty bland and expected: honesty, kindness, love of knowledge, helpfulness, etc.

    1. jonnycomelately profile image86
      jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      With those core values, we would get along pretty well!

  10. soldout777 profile image61
    soldout777posted 3 years ago

    Love is all we need!

    And God is love!!

    1. 0
      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Define love. We don't see a lot of love in the discussion of religion. We don't see a great deal of love in the manner in which those who claim God is Love interact with their fellow man. So, it is difficult to agree to either statement without first understanding how the one who made it defines love.

      1. soldout777 profile image61
        soldout777posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        You can find the definition of love in..1 Corinthians 13:4-8
        I agree with the fact that most people tend to forgot that rule, Love God and also love your neighbor. That is the golden rule. Many a time I found myself living contrary to that rule. I am not perfect, but I am always trying to be a better person. But remember if we look at people, we may fall, but look to the perfect God!

        1. 0
          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          I agree that holding perfection in love as a standard is a good thing.  But, again, what actions constitute love? What words? Love is a tricky word. Many people say and do things, supposedly in the name of love that are difficult to view as love. I would think the most important step would be first seeing love. How do we give nothing but love and accept anything given as love?

        2. jonnycomelately profile image86
          jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Is it possible for you to find any fundamentals which apply outside of your religious views?   I feel that being willing to look what makes us "tick" as a gregarious species could help us to reach consensus more often.
          If we can spot the automatic responses we tend to make, sort of instinctive reactions, then we could try to understand them.   Once understanding is achieved, then we are free to make some adjustments if, as and when required.
          Without the willingness to look outside our narrow perspectives, we will simply carry on along the same railway track and never experience the fulness of life which is our potential.

  11. soldout777 profile image61
    soldout777posted 3 years ago

    Yes! Love is a tricky word.
    I think the best thing for us to do would be to do our best in making this world a better place by how we care. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

  12. 0
    Beth37posted 3 years ago

    Love

  13. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    No amount of logic, reasoning or evidence to the contrary will ever get  ANYONE to question what they PASSIOBATELY  believe. Their  (OUR) beliefs shields US  from any questions or doubts that may shake up that calm and security OUR beliefs makes US feel. Like a pacifier, pacifies a baby. Anyone can believe anything that want to believe whether it's true or not.

        Is there really any difference between  "us and a them"    in doing all WE can to hold onto passionately held beliefs?   It is true that some people have a much stronger grip on their beliefs than others regardless of which side of the fence they happen to be on, concerning all things wether it be vegitaranian vs meat eaters, theists and Atheists, dog lovers vs cat lovers, etc. etc.

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      Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Learning slavery was taken as justified in the Bible eventually led me to give up Christianity.  It was a long journey, but it happened.  I am nothing special, and if it can happen to me, other people can change as well.

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        Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Slavery was not justified by God. It was accepted by the ppl of that age. Just like it was accepted pre-civil war in the south. Just because it is discussed, and addressed, doesn't mean it was acceptable by God. Have you read Exodus? It's about freeing the slaves. Why would God raise up a godly man into the White House and give the North victory over the south if He was not about setting the captives free. I do not say this disrespectfully, but I do believe you have misunderstood the Bible's meaning on this matter.

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          Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

          Where does the Bible say slavery is immoral?  Even in the New Testament Paul says treat your slaves well...and he always says for slaves to OBEY their masters.  Colossians 3:22

          If your God can't even claim, unequivocally, that slavery is wrong and is never justified, what kind of God are you worshiping?

          You also mention Exodus.  Perhaps you can explain Exodus 21:2-6?

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            Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

            This is a perfect example of a love relationship. The servant makes the impossible choice, for love, to be a "willing slave". When Christ saves us from our sin we are completely free. 1 Cor 10:23 "Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. God did not create slavery, mankind did. He turned water into blood and split the sea in order to free the Egyptian slaves. He allowed brother to turn against brother in order that one day a black man and a white man would be seen by the law how God sees them... equal.

            Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism.."


            Romans 2:10-12
            10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.12 For all who have sinned [a]without the Law will also perish [b]without the Law, and all who have sinned [c]under the Law will be judged [d]by the Law;

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              Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

              What?  You have avoided my question.

              Where in the Bible does it unequivocally say that slavery is immoral, the same way it says killing is immoral, and that worshiping other gods is immoral?  I produced verses where slavery is actually promoted, or at least taken as a way of life.  I could produce countless more, but that wouldn't help any.  You already know where I am going with this.

              Quoting Romans 2 does not suddenly make the other verses regarding slavery disappear!

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                Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                I haven't avoided your question, you just didn't like my answer. Mankind had servants. We know it was wrong now. They did not. They thought it was acceptable. The same way they had separate drinking fountains in the 50's and segregated schools. They thought it was acceptable, and they lived in that sin. Now we have an African American president. Your misunderstanding is in thinking God controls the actions of man. In telling them how they should behave in their situations, He was not condoning their choices. How many plagues did He have to send to make His point? He wanted the slaves freed. He stepped into our realm and said, "Enough!" But we didn't learn did we? We did it again, so He had to step in again and say "Enough!" I'm sorry if you do not see the message as clearly as I do, but I believe that has to do with the fact that you might be of the mind that - if God was the kind of god you would be - if you were Him, that you would run the show. He is ultimately in control, but He does not take our free will from us.

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                  Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Well, the problem isn't as big if you aren't an inerrantist.  I was assuming you think every verse in the Bible is true.

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                    Beth37posted 3 years ago in reply to this

                    I see where we are going here... yes, indeed I do believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

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                  Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Beth, you are completely missing the point. According the bible God set forth rules that he wanted us to follow, starting with the big ten and in those big ten there is no mention of setting slaves free. Apparently slavery was a non issue for the God of the bible, OT and NT both. We are given plenty of rules on how to beat slaves and how to keep them and even rules that separate Jewish slaves from other slaves. The only slaves who were supposedly freed were the Jews (the chosen people) as told by the Jews, yet we have no records of any such Jews being kept and freed by a people who kept perfect records. You can't say God didn't give rules in the OT and then follow his rules that he gave. This is something you should look right in the face instead of ignoring.

    2. vveasey profile image82
      vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Jerami
      the difference is, knowing that what you believe may not be true and being open to finding out if it's true or not...and even actively seeking to find out if what you believe is true or not. It's about being open and vulnerable to the truth rather than being insulated in what you believe. That's the difference that makes a difference.

      1. jonnycomelately profile image86
        jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Ok, fair comment, and I would pretty well agree with that, but if you dispense with the beliefs, and the dogma, and the religious learning, and what the "holy" preachers tell any of us, is there ANYTHING that stands out as being universally accepted as "good for a good life," so to speak?

        1. vveasey profile image82
          vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          jonnycomelately
          I'm not saying that one has to "dispense with the beliefs, and the dogma, and the religious learning, and what the "holy" preachers tell any of us". I'm saying know the difference between what you believe is true and what you know is true or if you don't know if what you believe is true and be open to finding out if it's true.
          You tell me if this is universally accepted as"good for a good life?," :"knowing what's good for you as opposed to what you believe is good for you"

          1. Jerami profile image77
            Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            But, sometimes "knowing"  something is only a matter of choice. Believing those things written by one suposed "wise man" who debates one side of an issue instead of the other "wise man" debating the other side.

                As much as we know something ??   That "knowing" is sometimes only a strong belief no matter what we choose to call it.   I know that some people teach certain things to be TRUTH   And I know that other people teach the oposit as being the truth. So, can I say that I know those things that one group is teaching is in fact the truth?   Sure !  I can say that I know, and I can feel like I know ,,,  but in the end, we only believe that we know. ...  with conviction!

            1. jonnycomelately profile image86
              jonnycomelatelyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              What you say is true!   I believe!   wink smile

              1. Jerami profile image77
                Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                Good morning Johny  ,,,  This morning with coffee I believe!
                Tonight with my Jack Daniels I will know!

            2. vveasey profile image82
              vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              Jerami
              You say "sometimes "knowing"  something is only a matter of choice" this would be the same a belief. I'm not talking about that.

              ]You say " I know that some people teach certain things to be TRUTH   And I know that other people teach the oposit as being the truth." I'm not talking about that because by definition this wouldn't be true or truth.

              You say "but in the end, we only believe that we know. ...  with conviction!" This talking in circle you started with what you believe and ended up with what you believe. I'm not talking about doing that.
              You should believe what you know to be true and the difference between that and what you "with conviction!" believe to be true.

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      If we follow logic, reasoning and evidence and question what we passionately believe our beliefs can change, as mine did. But you have to be honest and brave with yourself.

      1. Jerami profile image77
        Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        I agree,,,  being honest with ourselves is (I think) the hardest thing in the world to do.
        Even when we think that we have done it ...   truth is ...  we have only begun. 

        The irony is, ..  after we have finished our journey  we often find ourselves back where we started.
        Or is that just me?

        1. vveasey profile image82
          vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          it's just you and those who think like you

          1. Jerami profile image77
            Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

            Are you saying that you are completely honest with yourself?

            I somehow doubt that.

            1. vveasey profile image82
              vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

              I didn't say I was completely (or perfectly honest) and your previous post doesn't say anything about being completely honest. You said "The irony is, ..  after we have finished our journey  we often find ourselves back where we started.
              Or is that just me?"
              I'm responding to that statement. I don't often find myself back where I started and I'm sure many people don't.
              That occurs occasionally but not often and the more self-honest one becomes and open to examining the difference between what one believes and what one knows. The less that occurs.
              Self-honesty is an on going process of self-discovery that leads to increasing self-honesty as you go along.

              1. Jerami profile image77
                Jeramiposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                If we are not completely or perfectly honest,   how honest are we?
                Key words, ...  finished  ,  OFTEN (not always) , occasionally (sometimes)

                   If self honesty is an ongoing task ?     When you have completed your journey to accomplishing IT,  please enlighten us as to how it is not a difficult task,

                I find myself backing up and rethinking my analisis of many situations. Please let me know how I can avoid doing that while being honest with my self concerning what I believe to be truth.

                1. vveasey profile image82
                  vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

                  Everyone is different one size doesn't fit all. What's difficult to you may not be to somone else. Each person has to find the way that works for them. So because you may find something diffficult doesn't mean it's diffucult for everyone. So the way that you do something may be redundant to them but perfect for you.

  14. Jerami profile image77
    Jeramiposted 3 years ago

    There were many forms of slavery in those days.
    Yes, the conquering armies took slaves.
    When you owed a debt that you could not pay, you were often cast into bondage for a period of time such as to pay that debt. In this instance a friend or family member can redeem you from the auction block by paying that debt before the auction began. Thank God for bankrupsy laws. Ha.

        In many ways (today) we are slaves to the landlord/mortgage holder,  car/boat payments, etc. in the same way a crack adict is a slave to their drug of choice.   The word slave had a broader meaning back then than  we think of it today.   EVERBODY gotta serve somebody (or something)

    1. vveasey profile image82
      vveaseyposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Jerami
      We're not slaves to land lords unless you're their property like a chair, a dog, a car etc, .that can be bought and because you're someone's property and have no human rights.
      (Slave One bound in servitude as the property of a person or household. The free dictionary.com)

  15. moonfroth profile image82
    moonfrothposted 3 years ago

    A PLEA FOR CLARITY---we all know that the format for these Hub discusssions was set up by a drunk with severe muscle twitch, so can we PUH-LEESE help each other out!  When you begin a post, "Well, yeah, that's true....", it's all clear to YOU, but the poor schmuck coming along 20 hrs. later has to go on a ten-minute search mission trying to figure out WHAT is "true"!  And who said it.  If we all began our posts "To (name) 20 mins. ago" I guarantee the quality of dialogue will advance to a MUCH more vigorous level.

    ..............which flows into another plea!  We are all thinkers involved ideally in the flux of DIALOGUE.  and that means that e pay attention to each other and RESPOND directly to each other.  The exercise simply collapses when people simply spout off about THEIR interest with zero attention to the specific topic of discussion at that point

    Thanks for listening to my little rant.

    Back to "Truth"  There have been some thoughtful and provocative recent posts about the nature of Truth, how we define it for ourselves, how we subscribe to a value system while remaining open to the Truths of others, etc.  All of which focuses a lot of attention on the abstract noun Truth.  I propose a "grammatical shift", so to speak.  "Openness" is I think an embracing of the PROCESS of seeking, not an embracing of the "thing" sought.  For example, a Zen master does not so much embrace a position or a thought or an understanding called "Truth"; rather, he or she embraces a method, a PATH to inner fusion with the ONE, or Nirvana.  Thus the paths of the archer, swordsman, flower arranger, and calligrapher--though dramatically different--are equally respected each by the other of them as honourable ways to seek Truth  I am an Atheist, but I have the deepest respect for the seeking of St. Augustine and Karl Marx, though I cannot subscribe to their final Truths.  Perhaps studying the efficacy of the journey itself is more fruitful than studying the end of the journey.  Your thoughts?

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      Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      I'm not sure how to break this to you; but, this is an informal discussion forum. Although it might make your read easier, no one is going to reiterate the same thing repeatedly simply to make sure you know what they are discussing, and have been discussing, when you come in 20 hours later. By doing so, it would read like you were coming in off of the commercial break of a documentary. Quality of dialogue would not advance. It would be mired down in repetition.

      One does not have to begin their post with 'to (name) 20 minutes ago' simply because they reply to the specific post. The search does get tedious, at times, but that is the nature of the forum.

      And, thank you for listening to my little rant. smile

      1. moonfroth profile image82
        moonfrothposted 3 years ago in reply to this

        Thank you, Emil, for defining "informal" discussion for me.   Next time you elect to clarify something for a person not at your level of understanding, give some thought to doing so without being patronizing and sarcastic, neither of which was justified, both of which made you look rather silly.

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          Emile Rposted 3 years ago in reply to this

          If I offended, I do apologize. The comment was not meant to be sarcastic (with the exception of the last sentence).  I was simply pointing out that the forums appear to have been here for quite some time. They appear to be functioning by design and the majority of those who participate appear to enjoy the set up. To state that the staff must have been drunk with a severe muscle twitch when they set up the format was, in my opinion, more rude than my statement to you; and quite unwarranted.

          There is a wealth of diversity among the Hubbers who participate. To attempt to force an opinion that all should post in the manner you do, and hope that the rules of participation would be changed to suit your fancy, is unrealistic and would minimize participation.

          One more thought. If you go to the trouble and exert the exorbitant time and effort that those who started Hub Pages did (in creating your own site) you can make the rules. I promise, if I visit your forum, I won't accuse you of being drunk with a sever muscle twitch.

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      Sooner28posted 3 years ago in reply to this

      If you look on the top right of the box, it says in reply to this, which then links back your comment the person is responding to.  It helps figure out the reply chain.

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      Rad Manposted 3 years ago in reply to this

      Go to the top right and click Threaded - chronological.

 
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