Nigerian Child Witches and the Church. This almost made me sick.

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enderw1gginsposted 14 years ago
Can we get the phone number to the authorities?
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We can do anything if we try, (almost) but Nigeria may be difficult for us to deal with, I speak English only, and worse with an Australian accent!
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I will look on the net, surely someone has already done something we can add to.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I just noticed they have a church in South Africa as well.
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enderw1gginsposted 14 years ago
Well, its getting a little late here in Oregon but I know a few solid pastors in Nigeria through my church. I could try and send them an email and go from there.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great idea. You sleep well now.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Here is a link to sign a petition.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/childr … witch-hunt
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
Would ranting posters/preachers please go to another forum, perhaps one with a pulpit.

We may be creating hub history this very day, where a thread actually creates an impulse to do something. Jesus Christ, miracles can happen!
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  JonTutorposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hallelujah.. Miracles do happen.
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
I'm checking my church sites for Nigeria related news. As you would expect mostly good PR so far but I'll keep checking. We have a religious liberty office at our HQ in USA so I'll send them an email as well as a link to this forum.

but for some good news about what churches are doing in Nigeria
http://news.adventist.org/2009/04/post-1.html
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
No wonder the angels went to the shepherds.

The bright Pharisees in HubPages would have taken 450 posts before a call to action to go worship the baby Jesus.

Shepherds are simple humble people, they went to the manger right away.

Can u imagine, over 400 posts.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What are you talking about? New born babies seem to have that effect on people. They go all gooey and talk funny.
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
The shepherds response; worship baby Jesus.

HubPages shepherds response: save the children of the world.

Good name for a charity: HubPages Shepherds. You heard it here first. Patent it.
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Still searching sites. More good news about Nigeria. balance the picture.

http://news.adventist.org/2009/06/niger … ist-u.html

Can a Nigerian tell me the largest township near the location so I may email an adventist conference nearby.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This was the town Ernest mentioned previously. Calabar, Cross River State, Nigeria.
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Eric Graudinsposted 14 years ago
Here are few samples of the many online discussions about this topic.
How's your research going, fierycj ?

Blog Post
http://thetbjoshuafanclub.wordpress.com … -the-cold/

Forum discussion
http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-195306.0.html

Article
http://www.javno.com/en-world/nigeria-c … ase_258307

Blog Post
http://barthsnotes.wordpress.com/2008/1 … -the-news/

Blog Post. (Warning - graphic image)
http://my-beautiful-experience.blogspot … sy-of.html

Article:
http://exchristian.net/2/2007/12/christ … child.html

Blog Post
http://fivepublicopinions.wordpress.com … n-nigeria/

Blog, forum, Petition
http://childwitches.blogspot.com/
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Eric I will take a detour and look at them.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
This is the worst I have seen so far, thanks for the links Eric.
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
Here's another very informative link. Note down the centre page is a wordpad download which is very informative report completed by Stepping Stones. This groups is the major link to the care of these children.

http://www.humantrafficking.org/publications/593

Perhaps the Director of Stepping Stones Gary Foxcroft could shed some light on the current situation. Most of the articles on the subject are 18 mths to 2 years old.

The Christian element,the demoness pentacostal preacher Helen Ukpabio is the head I want on a plate. (http://helen-ukpabio.com/)
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Spot on! This woman has power and prestige through her media work and her own machine should be used to bring her down. I have no idea how to do that yet.
  I feel sure Mr. Gary Fox will be thinking about it too.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is where fierycj's AK47 is to be aimed - at Helen the demonic preacher and she can be made an example of. Any demonic preacher will be at the end of fierycj's AK47 if they mess with common decency and harm the children.
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Eric Graudinsposted 14 years ago
Probably the most useful, direct assistance that can be given is a donation to the Stepping Stones organisation that cares for these children.

http://www.justgiving.com/witchchildren/

Make a donation if you can.

(I've checked out this organisation, and justgiving.com and have found nothing to indicate that they are dodgy.)

We could even set up a special page at justgiving.com where donations from Hubbers could be tracked. Maybe a goal of say, 5 thousand dollars could be set.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great idea Eric, thanks.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Eric, can you organize that? I would like to donate and would be great if there was an impulse from the religious forum!! Kidding, hubpages community generally. I will wait to hear back with what can be arranged with this before I do anything.
  
  This feels right.
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  Eric Graudinsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This would be more properly organised through the Hub Pages management.
  They could set up a hubpages page at justgiving.com and direct any funds to the "Stepping Stones" organisation.
  
  That way, anyone can see how much Hubpages members have given to this cause. Could be a good thing for Ryan to promote as well.
  
  Anyway, I've "reported" this post to atract the attention of HP staff, and asked that Hub Pages set up a fund raising page.
  
  cheers, Eric G.
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enderw1gginsposted 14 years ago
Right on Eric! I feel like part of the "Aussie Posse" plus one Oregonian and nothing rhymes with Oregonian.

I'm in. Lets get a master plan working any ideas?

Looks like the Pope is in too.

http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/conde … ity-africa
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  With all due respect to his pontiffness, isn't he missing the point a bit. These kids are not witches in the first place. and it's preachers who are blurting silliness. Anyway, let him go for it. If it stops the silliness then let him talk, he has to earn his place doing something.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah to a master plan
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enderw1gginsposted 14 years ago
Jewels,

The Nigerian Witch Hunt has very little to do with sound Christian doctrine. The Pope is recognizing the fact that people in Nigeria and other African nations believe in witchcraft. Therefore attempts to teach good theology has been grossly underestimated due to the fact that the African people are still riding the fence with both world views. The Catholic church is attempting to offer a complete solution.

The actions of the people do not resemble proper Christian behavior in any way. It's not the collective churches fault it is the fault of the local church.

Hope that answers your question. I was supposed to be in bed three hours ago!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am a little unclear as to what constitutes "sound christian doctrine."
  
  I understand that the pope recommends not using condoms to prevent AIDS from spreading:
  
  http://news.aol.com/article/pope-condoms-aids/384211
  
  I also understand that the catholic church is finally prepared to apologize for the systemic child abuse perpetrated in Ireland:
  
  http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/bre … king33.htm
  
  Although I also understand the New York branch is fighting vigorously to not have to pay damages to the victims of childhood sexual abuse by Catholic priests:
  
  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/nyregion/05abuse.html
  
  The last witch killed in Europe was just 220 years ago:
  
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26422359/
  
  Good Theology? Seriously - we have never in the history of the christian church been able to separate our "pagan" irrational beliefs from the "christian" irrational beliefs.
  
  The story of Jesus is just taken from previous mythologies:
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Death-And-Rebirth-Of-A-God
  
  Nice user name by the way
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
Witchcraft itself is not the whole issue here, though the Pope has used this tact to sell Christianity - that's his job. The issue is the manipulative manner in which a christian (pentacostal) preacher has used the belief of witchcraft to gain financially.

'People of God' (I use that term very loosely) are seen as seers - which they are not in 99% of cases, but gullible, fearing, vulnerable people hang on every word that comes from them. This is my major concern here. There is no jurisdiction on who gets a license to preach and abuse the power of being apparently called by 'God' to influence people. This has to stop, along with the abuse of children who get caught in the crossfire of adult greed. Witchcraft was the tool used to manipulate. The children are not witches. I've said that several times in this thread.
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enderw1gginsposted 14 years ago
Jewels,

It is a crime to hand out ordinations to just anybody. I have a degree in theology and I'm not ordained. This practice needs to end pronto!
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps get ordained and use your cross and garlic to rid the planet of the Pentacostal fools. I would donate to that cause.
  
  Seriously, is there any movement to stamp out this problem, cause it is a problem. And the damage it is doing to your religion must be difficult for you to tolerate.
  
  To non Christians, and I can't speak for everyone of course, this type of behavior does nothing but turn people away. And in the process anyone aligning to Christianity is going to get put under the same umbrella as these Pentecostals.
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enderw1gginsposted 14 years ago
Alright my friend save that argument for the moment. I'm going to start a new thread with a provocative title. Lay down some ground rules and open with a simple argument. Then i'm going to sleep!
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Jewelsposted 14 years ago
May the FSM and equals not put gravel and glass pieces on the floor. Good luck to you both.
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Mark said:

"No - you are not. You are using semantics to suggest - once again - that you do indeed have authority - but I am "subjectively" choosing to ignore that authority. Now say - "Yes Mark - I agree - I have no authority over you and the bible does not give me any authority,".

Dear me dear me. This was never about me.

You mean all along you thought I was saying that I have authority over you.

One of the fundamental problems in the religion forum has to do with communication. specifically the use of theological and academic jargon.

So people who claim to understand theology and religion get all hot under the collar simply by misunderstanding jargons. Some words are used in religious discussions that have unique and specific denotations as well as powerful connotations.

Authority or power is ascribed to God as creator. In god is greatness, power, majesty. His absolute authority is an authority of love and peace supremely manifested iin the incarnation death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The authority of Scripture as the Written Word of God manifests all the characteristics of the authority of god.

When we discuss scriptural authority we are talking about:

1. Bible is recognised as the Word of god which speaks to us with demands for obedience, pleas of love, promises of blessings, warnings of judgement.
2. Bible takes precedence over other literature, church tradition, conscience, human reason (scientific theories change so often), mystical experiences, etc. These are all important but must be subjected to authority of scripture.

Mark you have a problem with the word authority. I accept by faith the authority of the bible. You dont. why should we argue.

There is nothing evil in the message of the bible, properly understood. The ethics of your country no doubt reflect biblical ethics.

You cant fight love.
You cant fight justice, mercy, and love. You can ignore love. But no one can fight love.

Join me in the fight against those who claim to recognise the authority of scripture as the revelation of God, and proceed to do 180 degrees turn against justice mercy and love.

Life is too short to misquote and misread academic jargon and waste time. we have a legitimate cause on our hands. Hey I might even fly to Nigeria to check it out. Mark you are successful enugh to sponsor my trip. I'll do photos and videos.
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Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago
glendoncaba -

You constant use of semantics is out of order.

I do not believe in a god.
The bible was not written by a god.
Your scripture holds no authority with me.

I am not interested in your meanings of the words as opposed to the real meanings.

Authority means:

The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge.

Your book does none of these. Perhaps it did back in the dark ages when you had an army behind you, but no more.

There is no god and I do not recognize any authority which creates situations such as this thread is discussing.

I do not see love in your use of the word "subjective," or "the people of faith who at least have some theological exposure."

I have made an objective decision based on the evidence. You have made a 100% subjective decision - an irrational one at that. And I have read and studied your book. I have come to the only rational conclusion possible after understanding it.

There is no god and anyone who believes there is, is liable to behave irrationally.

Simple.
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are right. I'm allowing the tone of the debate to get the better of me. I'm sorry.
  
  Forgive me. Its a little frustrating to ttalk to you because you misinterpret what I say every time in order to attack what you presume I said. but I should be more tactful.
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree know you dont believe in god.
  I agree the bible was not written by a god, but by men and women inspired by God.
  I agree that you do not accept the authority of scripture, I cannot concede that scripture has no authority over you.
  
  That like saying love has no authority over you. Love is life. God is love. Scripture is the word of God. So the authority of God is the authority of love is the authority of scripture.
  
  I agree that we have different views on the subject.
  
  Can you use words of respect even though we disagree.
  
  This is 2009, not Spanish Inquisition.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You disrespect me even as we speak.
  
  There is no god. Therefore scripture is not the word of god. It is the word of men. Mortal men. Inspired by personal gain.
  
  Nothing more, nothing less.
  
  But still you insist that your scripture has authority over me. What do you not understand here? Why can you not respect me?
  
  And then you demand respect?
  
  Earn it.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mortal men for personal gain? Explain Mother Theresa please.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Did she write the bible? Does she cancel out the wars and the inquisition? Did she make any real difference?
  
  Poor attack Mr. defense technician. Very poor. Please try again.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not really, you paint all religionists as people who are out for personal gain. Not everyone is. Religion makes it easy from someone to pull the wool over someone's eyes but that's hardy unique in the catalog of human endeavor. Nice try attempting to recast the discussion.
  
  As for who wrote the Bible, nobody is quite sure. At the time of the Council of Nicea, there were dozens of Gospels and dozens of copies. The purpose of the Council was to work through it all and decide what "true" Christianity was. Like many human endeavors, the results leave something to be desired.
  
  Mark, nobody can change the past, the only thing we can be responsible for is our own actions. If you're looking for something to cancel out all the evil and horror in the world, you'll be waiting a long time. Because it's people and the decisions they make, not what they believe that creates evil. Too bad you can't see that.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - really. You neglected one important aspect of this discussion.
  
  Which I find odd - you have mounted some reasonably cogent arguments - but this is not one of them.
  
  I am not looking for anything to cancel out the evil and horror. All I ask is that we try and learn from history.
  
  And hopefully not repeat the same mistakes.
  
  Too bad you can't see that.
  
  And let's face it - most religionists (along with the politicians and banks) are in it for their own gains.
  
  Or are you completely blind?
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Again you're right, most people are in it for themselves. Which might not be a bad thing, except when those people try to force their beliefs and way of living on others. The problem lies in the structures we use to promote these things. Christianity became an evil when it allied itself with the power of the State, namely the Roman Empire, later several European kingdoms. Islam has done the same thing regarding pretty much the entire setup of the religion under religious law. It isn't the religion, but the acceptance of force as a legitimate tool for conversion that is the true problem. Atheism is not immune to this malady, just ask people who lived in the former Soviet Union.
  
  Indeed it's not only religion which suffers from allying itself with the State, but also, as you've noted, banks. That's a topic for another thread, I think.
  
  The common denominator in all of this is force. Belief can provide an "excuse" for behavior that the naive can accept, but it's not belief, but action that is good or evil. That is one way in which I, personally disagree with Christian doctrine. Thought is nowhere near as evil as action. Oftentimes belief is used to justify that action, but it's actions that matter.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think the main problem with this is that it is thought that cases action. You can't lift a finger without thought
  
  Probably this is the point Mark is coming from.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I get that too, but I think too much is made from thought causes action. I'm sure there are times where all of us have contemplated some pretty horrific things, but for whatever reason didn't act on them. I'd say that not acting on those impulses comes from your moral character. Take Catholicism for instance. One of the main tenets is that everyone is born with sin. You exist, you've sinned. This is a terrible way to look at things. It's being condemned just for living. I understand the reasoning behind such a belief, but there are better ways to get that particular message across.
  
  The ways that people use that to justify their actions, varies, however. While one person may see original sin as a challenge to overcome, to be a better person than they otherwise would be; another might see it as an excuse for all sorts of evil behavior. It's not the belief, but how you act on it that matters.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, no question about those two, one is bad, and one is evil - as long as we allow for such a duality. Yet most of the people would fall somewhere in between, and for many of them perception of having a god on their side may mean enough excuse to cross the line between good and evil that we just draw above.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Come on, Misha,it really is that easy. We either act in a responsible, correct way, or we do not. We can try to rationalize our decisions using whatever beliefs we'd like, but in the end we either chose to act in a responsible or irresponsible manner. How many times we "cross the line" doesn't really matter except in degree of being wrong.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's all relative LDT. Killing babies is evil - but what if your are killing the next Hitler? Consequences are not always straight forward and readily visible
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, now we are in agreement. How long did christianity live before it allied itself with the state?
  
  It is actions that matter - and christianity has sadly lacked. I also agree that the "atheistic" communist regime did no better. So - where does that leave us? Despite claiming the moral high ground - religionists are no better than anyone else. Therefore there is no reason to suppose a god or any higher purpose.
  
  Why can't we all just get along?
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All correct except for that bit about no reason to suppose a higher power. Christianity was around for about three centuries before allying with the remnants of the Roman Empire. It was a power play by Constantine to get at the wealth of Christians to prop up the faltering finances of the Empire. And of course it was a chance for Christians to legitimize themselves in the eyes of Roman authority and to conceivably save the souls of everyone in the Empire and, possibly, beyond the borders of the Empire.
  
  Now you assume that there isn't a higher power. My question now concerns sentient life. What is the purpose of having sentient life? One answer is that there is a higher power that delights in seeing sentient life navigate the natural rules of the world, one I must that I'm biased towards. So I ask you, what is the purpose of sentient life, or any life at all?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To live.
  
  Or do you know otherwise?
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why do they always overlook the obvious? Mind baffling, truly amazing, utter astounding.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yup. Personally - I think self awareness was a big mistake, and we are destined to go the way of all things, talking a fair proportion of other life forms with us.
  
  Not to worry - something else will come along. And we wll live forever.
  
  Which reminds me of Douglas Adams' puddle:
  
  "Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for."
  
  Only we are not watching out..........
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And what is the point of watching out Mark? Will it change the outcome?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No - only the journey.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, let's say the puddle became aware that it was only here for a day - until the sun evaporated it - and chose to enjoy the brief existence it had rather than live under the misapprehension that the hole was made for it and it would live forever - this would be a very different day for the puddle. No change in the final outcome, but a very different puddle.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Gotcha
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That shrinking puddle analogy is a modern version of a Malthusian crisis. To a Malthusian, they sky is always falling. What they don't understand is that things are not static. Actions make a difference. You can't predict all the ways an action will unfold, so to say something like, "we're using up all the resources of the world" doesn't take into account actions people take to either stretch out the supply of raw materials by using them more efficiently or developing other alternatives to current materials. Nobody can hope to keep track of it all. That's what we call technological progress.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you lost me here LDT.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The shrinking puddle is supposed to be our planet that we're slowly killing due to overpopulation and "overuse" of natural resources. A similar theory was first suggested by Thomas Malthus in the late 18th and early 19th century. He suggested that populations increase to the limit of their food source. Then, since there is no surplus, the quality of life decreases as each person gets less and less of total food output.
  
  It's a scenario economists call zero-sum. That's all there is in the world and once it's gone, it's gone.
  
  What that sort of thinking doesn't take into account is the astounding creativity of humanity in general. We're always looking at better solutions to problems. Machinery in particular is a force multiplier when it comes to things like food production. That' something Thomas Malthus didn't see because he died before the Industrial Revolution really got off the ground. Heck he died before the repeal of the Corn Laws, which pretty much ended famine in the UK. So not long after his death, many of his assumptions were called into question.
  
  Likewise today, there are those who believe that humanity is an ever expanding omnivoracity. That we live just to consume. That's a simplistic and not very accurate way of looking at things but these guys have a different agenda. Basically they're Reds in the guise of Greens.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have totally missed the point here - sorry.
  
  The puddle is us. The Earth was made to have us in it. Work it out man........
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's nonsense of course. We've just adapted to suit our environment, or in our case to control our environment. But I would expect someone prior to the 19th century believing that Earth was created just for us. After all we had no real way of understanding how we got to where we are today. That took the scientific method and investigating geology to get a better understanding of where we come from.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No - you are missing the point completely. What does the bible say about us and our relationship to the Earth?
  
  You are the one talking nonsense now - a minute ago you were arguing the other perspective. After all - you are basing your argument on a bronze-age book.
  
  Think about it. What comes from thinking the Earth was made for us? Sentience brings it's own dangers - not least of which is assuming everything was made for us - and it will all be OK in the end. Just like the puddle.
  
  Oh - that's right - man's ingenuity will change the laws of physics - and finite will become infinite.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know what the Bible says about us and our relationship to the Earth. What you don't seem to understand is that is exactly what somebody would have thought at they time the Bible was written and for pretty much most of history because they didn't know any better. It's only been recently with the developments made in paleontology, geology and biology that we've been able to understand where we come from.
  
  The laws of physics? Come on, Mark, you of all people should know better. Science can only give us an approximation of Truth, we only gain new knowledge by testing and testing again. Heck until recently we thought the Big Bang caused the universe to expand at a steady rate. Then we discovered the universe doesn't. Now we have to revise our understanding of the laws of physics to take into account our new observations. The laws of science are not set in stone because our understanding of them is supposed to get better over time.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I understand just fine thanks. Science is evolving. But you are still missing the point of the puddle.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No I know the point you're trying to make about the puddle. The thought goes something like: If the world was made just for us, then Someone must have made it just for us. God.
  
  I've already told you I reject that line of thinking. Geology clearly shows how the world was made and even contains evidence of what the wold was like and how it evolved. Ergo, the world couldn't have been created just for us, the world and humanity must have evolved in tandem. Actually humanity evolved in response to the physical processes of the world, but we in turn have had an effect on the world which influences our evolution in turn.
  
  Man you need to stop arguing with the fundies, it'll make you intellectually slow and feeble. Yes, that's experience talking.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL -
  
  I met Douglas Adams some years ago and asked him what he was alluding to when he wrote that.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What was his response?
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  countrywomenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LDT- In science nothing is set in stone but at the same time it is verifiable. But in beliefs it is based on the individuals experiences hence totally subjective. Just like the other gentleman who feels that the Bible is the only book for all times and for all of humanity there are many in India who believe Bhagvad Gita is the same for them. With respect to beliefs each person has to tread this journey as an individual and respect others beliefs too. There have been far too many wars/bloodshed due to the distorted notion that somehow it is a "white man's burden" and they are the "benevolent force of good" to spread there way of life everywhere. Every culture is unique and it adds to the spectrum called humanity. When will the day arrive where we will set aside our differences and focus on what unites us. Sometimes I feel we have far too many religions to divide each other but not enough to love each other.
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  sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The song Imagine popped into my head while reading this. hearts!
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That, my dear, is part of my point. Since we have so many different religions, we can study them and the outcome of their beliefs. Through that study, certain things will pop up again and again. That is how we understand more of the universe and how it works, not through the slavish adherence to books written thousands of years ago and revised hundreds of times. Can we learn from them? Sure can. That's why I disagree with the atheist notion that holy books are useless. The can be useful, if studied correctly. That's how we know we're truly brothers and sisters in this world. Sure we're different, but at its core, humanity have certain traits that cut across all times, places and peoples.
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  countrywomenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The longer one walks in the path of faith the stronger the particular belief takes over hence difficult to see other perspectives. If religious books help an individual to become a better human being than certainly it is commendable. Even atheists who have internalized the good values/morals have to be equally respected. But when the so called stronger beliefs makes one think themselves somehow better than others then it certainly isn't commendable. We have to know where our nose ends and other person's nose begins. It is really tough to be objective about any books of faith.
  
  Thanks Sandra. Your words fill me with hope and optimism.
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Beautifully said CW
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  countrywomenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Jewels.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, it's all just and I agree, but it does not have any relation to the puddle metaphor as I understand it - see Marks reply
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, but that's just begging the question. How do you know you're living in such a way that is correct?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Correct? I am just living and doing the best I can as I understand it. I will likely survive - if my forebears are anything to go by - for another 40-45 years or so.
  
  You know what is the "correct," way to live I assume? Care to tell me how I should be living?
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, only you can decide what's best for you. I'm just curious about what you consider the right way to live.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Put it that simplistic - surviving is "correct."
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So in a survival context, how do you maximize your chances of surviving?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Kill the competition - same as the churches do.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting view. I imagine that would prove of limited success when trying to survive. After all leaving a trail of bodies behind you only serves to warn people against you and sooner or later your actions will catch up with you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes - And that seems to be the time about now.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  By your actions, shall you be known. See you can glean useful tidbits from the Bible.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The bible explains a lot of things. No question. But it is not the word of god.
  
  7 years feast. (Credit crisis). 7 Years famine. I am planning accordingly.
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  ledefensetechposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps it is, just not in the way most people think. It really is a useful book in some ways. You may wish to take a look at The Bible as History by Werner Keller. It does a very good job of pointing out the historical accuracy of many points in the Bible. First published in 1956 some of it is dated, but in its time this book was revolutionary in showing historical fact behind some of the bible.
  
  The History Channel recently had a great episode of their Battles BC show that analyzed Exodus as a military campaign rather than a flight from Egypt. They made some compelling arguments for that particular view. Viewing Exodus as a military campaign also explains why the Hebrews did some of what they did during that time as well. You might want to chec it out.
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  Mishaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, that's easy - if you like what you do, you are living in correct way
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
This is the info for the Seventh-day Adventist Conference in the area. I have sent them email with link. I will inform this forum of any response.

The SDA world church also operates a relief agency that i will try to get info from. If only Mark will stop misquotiing me so I can do the real work of love.

101 Goldie/Marian Road
Calabar, Cross River State
Nigeria
Mail: P.O. Box 201
Calabar, Cross River State
Nigeria

Phone: 234 (87) 233-103
Email: secsda@yahoo.co.uk
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
To Mark:

By subjectively i meant you as an individual, using your God given freewill. I did not mean anything negative.

Mark there are some of us on this planet who dont want to pick a fight every time we open our mouth.

I still believe we are arguing about nothiing really. I'll explain later.
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pappy0707posted 14 years ago
not every thing u read about nigeria is true.
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lawrettaposted 14 years ago
Dont believe everything you see or read on the net. the truth is that most churches in Nigeria have found a way of getting white people to finance their church. The IN-thing now in Nigeria is churches having international sponsors. I can vividly tell you that what you saw was merely acting in order to gain foreign attention.
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  Lady_Eposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thats what I have eventually found out. Its nice to read from you again. Haven't seen you in Forums for a while. E
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  Jewelsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm pleased it got foreign and world attention. The abuse of innocent children is better made public and exposed than to let it continue unnoticed.
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lawrettaposted 14 years ago
i have been working, really busy. thanks lady_E
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Mark said:
"But still you insist that your scripture has authority over me. What do you not understand here? Why can you not respect me?

And then you demand respect?

Earn it"

Mark in polite discussions on is allowed to air one's belief withut it being considered disrespectful. The disrespect i speak of is the tone and brashness of language. We can be gentler. and I profusely apologise if my language comes across as arrogant and rude.

Here is my final olive leaf:

It is my belief and settled conviction that scripture has authority as the word of God and is therefore an authoritative source of faith and doctrine for all humanity. It is my belief that if we all lived by the teachings of the bible we would all have heaven on earth. But I will give my life to defend humanity's (including Mark's) right to believe otherwise.
For central to the teachings of scripture is the free will of man.

Now for the Nigerians out there. Come on talk to us about whats happening on the ground. The video is sick. even if half true.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well - here is my olive leaf:
  
  There is no god
  Scripture has no authority
  If we all lived by the teachings of the bible, we would be back in the dark ages
  
  Central to the teachings of the scripture is the idea that anyone who does not abide will be punished. Free will notwithstanding. You do not do as you are told, you will burn.
  
  No thanks.
  
  ciao
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
Mark said:
"If we all lived by the teachings of the bible, we would be back in the dark ages

Central to the teachings of the scripture is the idea that anyone who does not abide will be punished. Free will notwithstanding. You do not do as you are told, you will burn."

Wrong my brother. Central to the teaching of the bible is John 3:16

"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in Him shoud not perish but haver everlasting life."

Central to the teaching of bible:

Love the Lord thy god with all thy heart and thy neighbour as thyself

central to teaching of bible:
Micah 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Talking about dark ages. They were dark because the bible was hidden from masses. renaissance and reformation translated bible into vernacular and taught people from bible about love of god. Not god as stern judge who waiting to burn everyone in hell. C,mon man get out of dark ages and see the light. Have you heard of Martin Luther the german reformer. The Christianity you are attacking is the falsehood pre Protestant Reformation.

Roman church mesmerised masses with lies and hid bible from them.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ah - so I if do not believe in him - I will not have everlasting life - but anyone who does gets this?
  
  Sheesh.................
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Great exposition. sort of. because you see christians also believe that persons who never heard of Jesus but live right according to their culture will also have everlasting life - because of the grace of Jesus. "In times of ignorance God winked at."
  
  Once you are no longer ignorant and you have become informed and convinced of gospel then the biblical logic is : "now command all men everywhere to repent."
  
  So you see we are not as narrowminded as you thought.
  
  Go on then. The next two texts? React to them too. Honestly? Fairly? Get that dark ages thesis out of your system. go on now. the next two texts?
  
  Mark I am surprised that a professor of Hubmarketing and successful businessman like you spend so much time bullyiing people of faith by plucking a sentence here and there. I challenge you to give me a coherent negative response to the next two texts I proposed were the central core of bible. Dont just try to bully me, just thoughtfully read and answer me.
  
  Hint: fill in the blank: glendon no reasonable person could have a problem with those two texts because ____________________________________________________
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
glendoncaba, more time considering the plight of the children this post thread is about rather than it being all about you might be a more convincing stance.
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  earnest we got that one going long time.
  
  where were you.
  go back and read posts you missed.
  
  I even suggested a name for our hubpages charitable response: Hubpages Shepherds.
  
  I even emailed a conference over in Nigeria and will keep going on that. the movement I belong to is worldwide and I have started by emailing the administrative office in that area. I even posted their address here so anyone could contact them especially in Nigeria.
  
  (Can yoou imagine I asked Mark to sponsor me a flight there, of course he ignored it, or maybe just planning the itinerary for me so that I have to pass through Gaza strip or Somalia on way there).
  
  this is not about me. Just trying to tie up some loose ends with Mark.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you care to look back at all input, not just your own, you will see that others have also been looking for ways to help without feeling the need to defend some doctrine.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let me get this straight:
  
  You want to fly to Nigeria to teach these people that what they are doing is wrong because they have been taken under the spell of the evil demon Satan, who was cast out of heaven by the Great White Father.
  
  This same Great White Father then sent His only Son down to earth to die nailed to a piece of wood to save us from our sins and prevent us from being burned for all eternity in a lake of fire.
  
  And if they symbolically accept this son as their true savior they will be fine. If not in this life, then in the next - where they will live for all eternity if they just fight against evil, combat unbelievers and cast out the demons who inhabit the bad people - who are not really witches, they have just been duped by the evil demon. They can, depending on which cult you belong to - eat his flesh and drink His blood regularly to ensure they go to heaven instead of hell - where the unbelievers are going.
  
  And you do not see where this could go horribly wrong?
  
  Oh - wait a minute.........
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glendoncabaposted 14 years ago
earnest

We are all part of the solution. Just that once we decided to out the fire we threw our few buckets of water and quickly returned to argument as to whose fire truck had the biggest engine.

You do have a point at the objective level, all this mutual cerebral stimulation in the forum is of very little use unless it motivates us to go out there and put love in action...and write a couple hundred hubs while we are at it.

So for me this is good bye for a very very long time.

You will hear from me if and when I have solid data on the Nigerian situation.

Meanwhile...pray for kids; agitate and advocate and lobby against situation in Nigeria; and tell the atheists that we love them (the atheists) for we are all children of one God.
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well said glendoncaba. I look forward to seeing you here on hubpages often.
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  Eric Graudinsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Very well put.
  This is why I very rarely visit these forums. Everything turns into a contest which basically boils down to arguments about whose god can piss furthest up the wall.
  
  I respect your views Glendon. If all men of god were like you, the world would be different.
  
  That would be a shame.
  
  I'm out of here too. The original subject has been totally swamped. I'll do my bit to try and help this cause, and I hope that others do likewise.
  
  cheers, and thanks to everyone who responded to this awful situation.
  Regards,
  Eric G.
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PerfumeFanposted 14 years ago
I checked out the links... poor kids! Those people are sick! Jesus.
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Make Moneyposted 14 years ago
This message clearly needed to be told Eric. This is truly disgusting that someone calling themselves a Christian preacher can call children witches, have them persecuted and their parents go along with it.

This is even more disgusting than the pedophile priests and Catholic bishops that shuffled them around. Neither are Christian. And I am saying that as a Catholic. Let's face it, they were Catholic kids. Sometimes I wonder whether Adam Weishaupt's plan from the 1700s to infiltrate the Church has happened. I blame the bishops more than anyone for shuffling the priests around. At least the Catholic Church is being forced to be accountable and compensate the victims.

With these so called preachers in Nigeria being loosely affiliated with the Pentecostals how can we see some accountability and help these children?

1. Well Eric posted this link in another thread to try to get us back on this topic. We can donate to this charity to help the victims of this crime.
http://www.steppingstonesnigeria.org/supportus

2. Mrs. Helen Ukpabio, the evangelist preacher that started the Liberty Gospel Church and is spreading these atrocities throughout Africa has a web site. There is a contact link on her web site. We can send Helen Ukpabio an e-mail stating our disgust in what she is doing.
http://helen-ukpabio.com/

3. In one of the links that Eric posted in his original post it said that Helen Ukpabio's "ministry" stems from the US and Scottish Pentecostals. Whether Pentecostals are loosely affiliated or not should Pentecostals in the US and Scotland be partly accountable?

What do you say?

Now I'll go back to page 24 to try to wade through all the off topic posts.

Mike

Edit after reading page 25.

4. Eric has asked that Hub Pages set up a fund raising page.
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Make Moneyposted 14 years ago
Both accofranco and fierycj, who are from Nigeria do not believe these news reports about children being persecuted as witches in Nigeria. And these two posts are from page 27 of this thread.

It would be nice to hear some more from accofranco, fierycj, pappy0707 and lawretta on this. What did you find out Lady_E?
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Sufidreamerposted 14 years ago
Hey Mike.

Stepping stones is based in my hometown, and I went to school with the founder, although he is a few years younger. I did not know him that well, but he seems to be a nice guy

http://www.lrgs.org.uk/news/bafta-award … pupil.html

Lancaster held some of the most notorious witch-trials in UK history, so the charity has found a lot of local support. All above board, by the looks of things
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Make Moneyposted 14 years ago
Okay thanks Sufi.
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iamqweenbeeposted 14 years ago
Crazy
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  glendoncabaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No. Just honest. Tell the truth and you never have to remember what you say.
  
  Truth is we need people now who can verify the allegations on this thread. People not connected to the charities or to the churches involved.
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  Lady_Eposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  True.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Has there been more reported on this yet? Was there any confirmation of the events, or denials from the church involved? I will take a look now, but if you can find out what the locals believed happened that would be great.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I found this . Following the airing of the Dispatched documentary, The Akwa Ibom State enacted the Child
Rights Act making it illegal to brand a child a witch. On its website the Akwa Ibom State
Government states that it “will not fold its hands and watch evil elements of society
dehumanise, demoralise, bastardise, displace, stigmatise, or persecute our children for personal
gains.” The Government then states how it will:
• Place full legislative machinery against labelling of children as witches

This and more here http://maheba.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/ … %E2%80%99/
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Make Moneyposted 14 years ago
This doesn't seem to be getting any better yet.

These are quotes from this page on the Child Rights Information Network (CRIN) web site.
http://www.crin.org/resources/infodetail.asp?id=20503
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  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  MM, I am so sad for these children.Thank you for your update, it will be appreciated by all who are concerned with following this story
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Nigerian Child Witches and the Church. This almost made me sick.

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Nigerian Child Witches and the Church. This almost made me sick.

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