why does god let atheists and agnostics exist?

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Troy C.posted 13 years ago
Why is it that the creator of heaven and earth would allow himself and those who believe in him to be ridiculed and persecuted. Why he would not only let them exsist but allow them to thrive while here on earth. I asked my Son and he said "free will." That's true but I feel it goes deeper than that. What do you think.
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  Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your son is correct, indeed free will is the biggest reason of it. God give us life, providing our need, and set the rule for us to follow through religion, but whether we following it or not it is our choice and the risk is ours to face later.
  
  Every human have their right to live and lead their life in the way they want it to be. Wrong or right (no matter who see it) it still great example for each one of us. I believe beyond every differences that we have in religion, culture, etc, lies great lesson about humanity and the mercy of God. Every moment is priceless, every incident is mean something. But only those who let their eyes and heart wide open will able to see and feel grateful because of it.
  
  But it just my opinion though.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice response, thank you for your reply. You're right every moment is priceless and we must live it right because tomorrow is not promised to us
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  Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My pleasure, Troy. And Please forgive me for the late reply.
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  gooberpyleposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  freya may the god of abraham,issac,and jacob bless your home and give honor unto your family with peace,happiness,prospairity and wellness and mostly of all salvation shalom.
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  Freya Cesareposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, that is precious prayer to give. Thank you very much, Gooberpyle. I wish the same for you too. Salam.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Troy:
  No offense meant, but you haven't studied the history of your beliefs, or studied the bible you place so much faith in have you? Seems not.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Meh, they just get upset when the people they have pushed around for centuries finally push back.
  
  What did the Egyptians do to the Christians? Nothing because Christians weren't yet invented.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously, the simple explanation is that your god doesn't exist.
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  gooberpyleposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well i think somebody got up on the wrong side of hiz coffin thiz evenin'' pull the stake outer yer heart bettlejuice quite feedin' on all the christianz blood,i know it taste bettern that foul athist blood but maybez ya could puter salt oner.hi alternator pot i'm back from my 3 day vacation waz funny 2 gotz lotz more stuff,oppz i gota go i smell hair burnin'....offen that hawg i got on the stick,buy now ya hear.
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  spookyfoxposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you want people to take their time to read your posts, you should invest some into writing them properly.
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  adrienne2posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  @Beelzedad I noticed u said "your god" ok if its his God why wouldnt He exist? It doesnt take your not believing in something to make it not exist. As you said its His God so He-God does exist for him.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  adrienne:
  Thanks for making my point i.e. this god thing is imagined.
  The "believer" can imagine it to be whatever comes to mind....:-)
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Every single believer has their own version of a god. It's like fingerprints, no two are ever alike.
  
  His god exists for him just as much as his unicorn or his leprechaun.
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  HubCrafterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Every single believer has their own version of a god. It's like fingerprints, no two are ever alike. His god exists for him just as much as his unicorn or his leprechaun."
  
  For the sake of a little amusement (is it uptight in here or what!?!) let's change the context...just to lighten up the conversation. And change the topic to food.
  
  ..ie."Every single Chef has their own version of a recipe. It's like fingerprints, no two are ever alike. His recipe is important to him just like his car or his home."
  
  That said, I'm a Christian and I agree with you.
  
  We all have our own version of a God recipe in our hears or our hearts..(you pick).
  Personally, I take it for a fact that God exists. You disagree perhaps. But that's just your "world" recipe. You believe in and use only the finest ingredients when creating your personal view of the universe.
  
  Others believe in the "secret ingredient". It makes our universe especially tasty to us. Naturally, we offer you a taste.
  Yuck! You say...How can you guys eat that stuff?!?!
  
  So you offer us some of your tasty dish.
  Yuck! We say... That's nasty! We used to eat stuff like that all the time. Now we prefer this..
  
  And so on....
  
  I'm not interested in arguing about WHO has chosen the most tasty recipe. I'm just confused about why you want to come into a kitchen of christian chefs and knock the food?
  
  Why bother?
  
  If you love ...Ford's. Why take the time and trouble to drive down to the local Chevy dealership and argue with the staff and customers, lol?
  
  -I'm not angry. I'm just a little curious is all.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cool, a "foodie-quip".
  I enjoyed the semantic use of food in your reply, Crafter.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Notice that your response indicates your religion is something you have created for yourself and is something you want to perceive and believe, but has nothing to do with what your god wants?
  
  Yes, reality is presented to believers and they prefer their personal fantasies over it.
  
  In other words, why bother presenting reality to Christians? Why knock their personal fantasies?
  
  The last 2000 years of bloodshed over those personal fantasies might have something to do with it.
  
  If you despise reality for what it is, why do you choose to create and live in a personal fantasy? I'm just curious.
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  HubCrafterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  2000 years ago the conversation went like this: Come with Me, and I will make you fishers of men."
  
  What do you care what my God wants?
  
  Why do you fish in the stream and bait christians?
  
  Did you find some race or creed of men who have never, in 2000 years made war?
  
  Is it so hard to rise up so high on your horse and look down so far below on the ones you despise?
  
  What is this fantasy of yours? Why are you so angry and gladly judging?
  
  Are you so much better than the ones you mock? Who made you a judge over us?
  
  What make you so important as to offer us your world view? You are just another man. You put your pants on, one leg at a time. I'm not impressed by your anger or your comic book words like "despise".
  
  You want so much to be our teacher. How have you earned the right to be our teacher? Have you earned our respect? Have you become a friend? Have you even been invited to preach your gospel of boils and bunions to us? No.
  
  No. You have not come to teach, to encourage or to listen. You came among us to hate and ridicule. So..are you so surprised we don't listen to you? What do you offer us? Certainly not your friendship or your heartfelt concern.
  
  You just hold up your clenched fist. We understand the symbol.
  
  You cannot catch these fish with that bait. If you truly wish to have us listen..speak with respect to us and we will listen. If you just come with anger and sarcasm..you are just making yourself sound foolish and angry.
  
  Is your purpose to challenge our ways and ideas? Speak honestly. We are not deaf.
  
  Did you come to mock and preach? Or to speak like a man does to a neighbor?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't.
  
  I don't.
  
  Just believers, for the most part.
  
  I don't despise anyone.
  
  Yes, I understand why you would assume others are angry and judging your beliefs and that it is them who embraces fantasies.
  
  Your god teaches believers that they're better than me and that they can judge me.
  
  I don't offer you my worldview, only reality.
  
  Yes, I understand how believers assume others who don't share their beliefs are angry and despise them.
  
  Who says I am your teacher?
  
  I never will earn it until I share your beliefs.
  
  Of course not, why would believers be interested in reality?
  
  So sorry you have to fabricate stories to support your position.
  
  Not at all.
  
  Reality.
  
  Yes, I understand that. I don't share your irrational beliefs so there will never be a friendship as far as you're concerned.
  
  Yes, again the need to fabricate stories to make your point.
  
  Yes, I understand believers assume others will respect their irrational beliefs, when the beliefs offer none themselves. I'm sure the offering of reality does sound foolish and angry to believers.
  
  Unfortunately, believers don't know much about honesty and never listen to reason.
  
  It is interesting that you spent so much time focusing on me personally rather than attempting to form an argument. I understand that it is very difficult to do so in the face of reality when fantasy is all there is for support. But, I do understand this tactic from believers, it has become common place here.
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  HubCrafterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So..why do you come here?
  
  Neither of us take the other's position.
  As you say, there is no relationship or friendship to be gained.
  
  So why is it you bother to visit this forum?
  The reality of what you get out of it escapes me.
  Your purpose.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm curious as to why you continue to focus on me personally instead of the forum subject matter? Is it due to the fact you're unable to form an argument and must obsess with the person?
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  Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There is good and bad, love and hate, hot and cold, but we could not recognize one without the other to experience both is knowledge. Also your son's answer of "free will", would have no bearing, no value if both did not exist.
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Pretty lofty ideas for a bunch of clothes wearing simian offspring. Oh, for a new song, brought to me on a divine breeze of inspiration, casting off all doubt, revealing in the revelation, providing that which you obviously crave... to be one with he who lives forever, yet it is he who has allowed you to blind your eyes, and so your understanding, for this is what you so secretly seek, this is what you have, unbeknownst to your conscious mind, prayed for. Beware not to ignore that which you cannot perceive with your senses, for these things are for even more hidden aspects of the human mind. You perceive a window of glass as solid, when in truth, it is a very slowly flowing liquid.
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  HubCrafterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for that Dave.
  
  Bartender! ...I'll have what he's having!
  
  ..cuz I don't get your point...or understand, what the heck you're trying to say, lol.
  
  Let's pretend I'm ten years old...break it down for me. Real simple.
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  Don Wposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'd expand on your sons answer which already runs quite deep if you think about it.
  
  My understanding of the Christian faith is that the Christian god is supposed to be perfect. Isn't perfect love considered to be unconditional love? As such doesn't unconditional love require freedom on the part of the recipient? Freedom to make mistakes, to do wrong etc. Otherwise it's not unconditional. But likewise isn't the Christian god supposed to be perfectly just also?
  
  With that in mind, would it be fair to say that according to the Christian faith, if someone chose a different path they would still be loved because that is unconditional (perfect love). But they would also be allowed to go down whatever path they chose, including ridicule of the Christian god, because the right of human beings as free agents will always be respected (perfect justice)?
  
  So in relation to the question "why . . . the [Christian god] "allow[s] himself and those who believe in him to be ridiculed and persecuted". Is it because that is a by-product of allowing free will? And free will is a manifestation of perfect love and justice? Wouldn't lack of ridicule need lack of free will? Wouldn't lack of free will mean the Christian god is not perfectly loving and just? And is it not the case that, according to Christian theology, a being without such attributes would by definition not be god?
  
  From all of that, can we then conclude that if we start with the Christian assumption that god exists and has these attributes, then it's logically necessary for free will to exist also, and consequently the by-products of free, including persecution and ridicule? Indeed can we conclude that these things have to exist if the Christian concept of god is correct, as anything else would be inconsistent? And can we therefore conclude, given that assumption, that persecution and ridicule are a logical necessity (because free will is a necessity) in light of the Christian concept of god, as these things must logically exist if the assumption "god exists" is true?
  
  So did the answer your son gave run quite deep? I think it did.
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  gooberpyleposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  WRONG!!! their are conditions, god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son,so that whosoever should BELIEVE IN HIM should not perish but have life everlasting,all who don't except the lord Jesus the christ is condemned to a devil's hell to burn in torment forever and ever amen.shalom
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  Don Wposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for your comment. No need to shout though.
  
  As far as I'm aware, according to Christian belief, the god of Christianity loves freely, not based on what is deserved. It's my understanding that there is nothing any human being can do to 'deserve' that love. In that sense, it is a gift, and a manifestation of perfect love which, according to Christian theology, is one of god's attributes.
  
  As far as I understand it those who don't accept that gift are not unloved by the Christian god. I believe a Christian would argue that no one is unloved by god regardless of their attitude towards god or Christianity. But there are natural consequences (usually positive) to accepting love and help from an omnimax super being. Likewise there are natural consequences (usually negative) of not accepting the love and help of such a being. But it's not a case of reward and punishment as such.
  
  My understanding is that it's more analogous to a parent and child. At some stage your child becomes an adult, an individual in his own right. You'd love for him to listen to you, take advantage of all the experience, knowledge and wisdom you have accumulated. Not because you are an egomaniac, but because you love him and know it would help him. However you recognise his dignity as a free agent and an individual. So you advise, counsel, and offer help, but never force because you absolutely will not strip him of his dignity as a free agent. So ultimately only he can decide whether to take that advice and help.
  
  If he chose never to accept your help, and instead chose to reject you that would be his choice. But not having the benefits of your help and advice, and not being in your presence would not be your punishment of him for rejecting you. It would be a consequence of the choice he has made freely. If however he wanted your help and advice, you would not give it because he 'deserved' it (he may not). You would give it because you love him.
  
  So my understanding is that the love of the Christian god is not conditional on what we do or think. It is always there. But us benefiting from a relationship with god is conditional on whether we choose to enter into one. If we choose not to, we're still loved, but god will not force us into a relationship. Instead our dignity as agents of free will is honoured. So if our choice is to be without god, then ultimately without god is what we will be. But if we choose to have a relationship with god then we are accepting the love, help and advice being freely offered and we will ultimately continue to receive it.
  
  That's my understanding of Christian belief in relation to this, pulled together from various places. I'd be glad to here how you arrived at your understanding as I'm interested in such things.
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  HubCrafterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "My understanding of the Christian faith is that the Christian god is supposed to be perfect. Isn't perfect love considered to be unconditional love? As such doesn't unconditional love require freedom on the part of the recipient? Freedom to make mistakes, to do wrong etc. Otherwise it's not unconditional. But likewise isn't the Christian god supposed to be perfectly just also? "
  
  YES!
  There's no contradiction when I describe (for example) my favorite teacher in college as, "tough but fair". He disciplined but he also was forgiving when I had a bad day. He wasn't some hard case EVERY day..He'd never be MY favorite, lol! And he wasn't some weasel who always avoided confrontation either. He had an idea of where the whole class was going in the lesson plan. But he'd take the time to listen and answer questions..but he's got a goal in mind..we're going to cover this much material and he cares about our needs.
  It's not an easy job..being a teacher. He's gotta balance things. Be strong and unchanging about his main goal...but he's gota be flexible with his individual students...cuz he cares about them.
  
  Wow! You really seem to "get" the theology under this Christianity!
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  gooberpyleposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  god allowes dispear head and his bunch ta run round loose causen he knowz they ain't got long leften ta spread their manuer round an try to pervert good folks into their twisted, preverted,evil thoughtz by the way head ,got yer smartelicky comment .answer ta that come over ta the house and i'll tranzlate over a big ol' helpin' o fat back and possum gritz,come on by pull yer shoez offen and stay a while we'll have er shot er moon an have a right nice vizit. might even take ya down ta see the gatorz ya'll come back now ya hear,
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  jpwriterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Why he would not only let them exsist but allow them to thrive while here on earth."
  
  I think God is strong enough to handle a human's disbelief. For those simple believers in God, who never gave a thought but to follow, their devoutness is rigid, at times, and harms others (hating in the name of God). For many Agnostics, and Atheists, there is often a spiritual path and personal enlightenment. Perhaps more acceptance and tolerance, but not in a bad way.
  
  Agnostics/Atheists are not bad or all just simply existing. One does not need God, a "religiously defined god" for spiritual fitness & happiness. Some Atheists & Agnostics DO thrive just as some Christians are in misery.
  
  I'm Agnostic, Troy. Mainly because the things that I have seen and experienced in this often cruel world make me wonder how, if there is this god/loving creator, can so many things happen without a supreme being interceding. I get the free will concept, but there are many reasons for disbelief in god.
  
  I was an Atheist young (12,13). I hated God, church, the whole charade. What I saw was families who got all dressed up for the rest of the church, made sure to donate & get that place passed around, pretended they were fantastic, then lived such hypocritical lives outside. If THAT was believing in God then count me out!
  
  So, we are stuck w/free will. I wish we could unite our consciousness to heal the world. Maybe then we could all learn to thrive.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Would have been much simpler to have judgement day on day eight. Simpler, but pointless.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your son is right; it is free will; nobody could harm Him with derision and ridicule; it is enough for suffering to miss to accomplish the purpose of creation and life while one could have achieved it and it was within one's reach.
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  DavePriceposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The only answer I know is this: when my child leaps off the floor to wrap her arms around me and tell me she loves me, I want her to do it because it was entirely her idea - not because I told her to, not because I prescribed 5 times a day to do it, not because I told her exactly how I wanted it done. I want her to do it because she wants to do it. Why do we think God is any different? And why does anyone worry about an athiest in the first place? I'm not responsible for his opinion of God, he is. I'm only responsible for my own opinion and it matters to no one except me - so why should I worry about someone else's opinion, belief, unbelief, interpretation, understanding, or any other human device we use to define our existence? I believe, someone else does not believe - surely we can coexist without judgement, disdain, derision, argument or any other mental abuse leveled at the other side. We're all still human, suffering all that humans suffer in this life; surely we can live it side by side without adding to it.
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  Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are too many cultist in this world to stick on a dessert island somewhere...so the rest of us have to live with you. And you have to live with us. It's called civilization.
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your son is correct Troy, according to what is taught
  
  God created all of us equaly and gave us all the freedom of choice. He promised not to interfear with that, so thus we are allowed to choose.
  
  and we are allowed to thrive and survive. It is our choice to make.
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  spookyfoxposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's not a choice. You can't choose to start believing in Santa right now anymore than I or any atheist can choose to believe in god.
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  Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "God created all of us equaly and gave us all the freedom of choice. He promised not to interfear with that, so thus we are allowed to choose.
  
  AS LONG AS WE ALL CHOOSE WHAT SOME CULT SAYS WE SHOULD CHOOSE. AND JUST SO YOU KNOW...BEING FED TO LIONS, MASSACRED BY THE THOUSANDS, AND EXTERMINATED IS PERSECUTION!
  
  STOP USING THAT WORD SO LOOSELY AND VAINLY!
  
  IN UGANDA RIGHT NOW; CHRISTIAN HAVE PUBLISHED A LIST OF ONE HUNDRED GAY PEOPLE THEY WANT MURDERED! IN UNITED STATES GAY PEOPLE ARE BEING THROWN OUT OF THEIR MILITARY AND SLAUGHTERED IN THIER STREETS. AND A SYSTEMATIC EXTERMINATION OF BLACK MEN IS BEING CARRIED OUT IN MOST OF THE DEVELOPED NATIONS; ALL DONE BY THE LONG SUFFERING AND PERSECUTED CHRISTIAN, MUSLIM AND JEWS.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so who is really being persecuted then?
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  Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Everyone who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew!
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it's a forced choice
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  neomasmithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Because they God's son too. He loves them unconditionally..........
  http://dermatal.net/
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  wilmiers77posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God loves everyone unconditionally. God shows mercy and gives grace unto All. Yes, free will is part of it. Jesus said our Father shows all former, and gives rain on the weeds and the grain, and harvests the weeds with the grain. At the storage barn the weeds is separated for the grain and the weeds is burned in the end.
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If God's name is I AM then perhaps we can understand God by understanding what IS.
  
  Love compelled is not love therefore for love to exist, there must be choice.
  Choice without consequence is meaningless therefore there must be consequence.
  
  Faith is not the absence of doubt, but the courage of conviction in the midst of doubt.
  
  All atheists and agnostics are not the same. Some are truly seeking and doubt God, primarily because of the hypocrisy of those who claim to believe but act like God does not exist. Others actually know God exists and are in denial. We humans cannot know the heart and mind of another.
  
  If God is truth then the honest doubt of the atheist who is not compelled by fear but is, indeed seeking truth is more pleasing to God than are the false claims of faith that give lip-service to belief, but act as though God does not exist.
  
  On the other hand, there are those who have chosen to claim disbelief rather than admit that their doubt goes the other way, they believe in God but don't want to deal with the consequences of God's existence not realizing that actions and inactions have consequence.
  
  Thus, He allows all things, including the existence of that which seems antithetical to Him to exist, because He is the I AM.
  
  Of course, that's just my opinion
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am seeking truth. I'm not so sure that truth involves a deity
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  BDazzlerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My opinion is that said hypothetical deity is thrilled with your seeking
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  bodyleviveposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In reply to the original question: Why is it that the creator of heaven and earth would allow himself and those who believe in him to be ridiculed and persecuted. Why he would not only let them exsist but allow them to thrive while here on earth. I asked my Son and he said "free will." That's true but I feel it goes deeper than that. What do you think.
  
  Because He (the Creator) knows the outcome of all. The outcome of satan and his followers has been predetermined, read The Book of Revelations, it will bless you, reveal to you, inspire you and tell you what, why and when. Christians have been persecuted, ridiculed, nailed to a cross and beheaded since the time of Jesus. Those who follow in the path of destruction will be included in the destruction of the anti-christ and his followers. The Word is true and all this must come to pass before the destruction of those who persecute and redicule the followers of Christ. There will be no place for such in the new heaven and earth.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree; the Creator-God Allah YHWH does not force anything on any body, and allows freedom in this world.
  
  But Jesus is no creator of heaven and earth; he is Son of Man as he himself proclaimed.
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  dankendkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Except from free will, the suffering, disbelief, etc. are allowed to show us how evil sin is...
  
  God loves everyone... He hates the sin not the sinner and He is merciful and just...
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  lone77starposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Troy C., I agree with your son. "Free will" is so vital. It's part of the answer.
  
  ATHEISTS AND AGNOSTICS vs. EVIL HEARTS
  
  Frequently, atheists and agnostics are right. How many abuses have there been from the church and from religion? And there are so many different interpretations of the Bible. Who is right?... Is anyone right?
  
  So many "righteous" people go to church, do the right things, yet have evil hearts, full of judgment. These people have "free will," too, but they've turned... to the "Dark Side."
  
  SPIRITUAL AWAKENING
  
  The spiritual awakening that is the salvation of every major religion on this planet is not something for the ego to triumph over. It never can. Ego is the source of all evil (selfishness), whether it is religious evil, scientific evil, political evil or garden-variety evil. Yet, so many of the religious get it wrong. They start wars. They ruin lives. They ostracize truly caring people, and then wonder why problems arise. And then they wonder why the flames of hell are licking at them.
  
  THE CHURCH AND FREE WILL
  
  For over a thousand years, the wrong people ruled the church. Anyone who disagreed was tortured or killed. Thank goodness for "free will." And thank goodness for democracy! Democracy helps to make accountable those who wield power. It helps to give us the freedom to search for truth based on our own conscience, rather than repackaged "Gospel" based on the fears and lusts of a Byzantine emperor. Justinian couldn't get the Pope to attend his council, so he kidnapped him and held him for 6 years. That truly was the beginning of the "Dark Ages."
  
  Now that Inquisitions and burnings at the stake are no longer in vogue, we can exercise our "free will" more openly. Certainly, "free will" results in a measure of chaos. Freedom is always messy and unpredictable.
  
  Some will choose to use their "free will" to create compassion. Others will use it to create more selfishness. Spiritual awakening requires that "free will," because awakening requires our decision. We must choose to awaken as spiritual beings, if we are to do so. It cannot be forced upon us.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My thoughts are ...
  He does this for the same reason that he created rabbits and foxes, Butterflys and flowers. honey and brown bears.
  
  For the same reason he created Iron ore and Fire.
  
  Creation is an ongoing process Something is constantly being created.
  Once anything is created it has to be tested.
  
  The next creation always tests the previous.
  This is part of the creative process.
  And always will be.
  
  And God saw this and said "This is Good!"
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  khrysteenaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have not read every single comment on this hub post, but I think I have read enough. The question as to why God let such people, atheists and agnostics, exist, the question can be answered in many ways. If murder is a sin, why would God commit murder. If you are an innocent mind as a child, and you take a different path as your destiny, how is God to control the way you are wanting to go. He put you on his earth to live and then to die. If that is early in life, or late, whatever the case, he is not going to take you out of the world because you don't believe in him, I'm sure those weren't his intentions in the first place. But I think he is just testing those who claim to believe in him, he has to otherwise how does he know if the love, belief, and faith is true.
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Diane Insideposted 13 years ago
I agree with your son. Free will.
Look at it this way, would you want your girlfriend or wife to love you because that is all she knows, she has no choice to do so.

Or would you like the fact that she loves you even though she doesn't have. She could choose to love any other man in the world but she picked you.

I means more doesn't it.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I would not want a "Steford Wife" (I hope I spelled that right) but as I often remind her, she was blessed to get me, LOL. Alas, with God the ramifications run much deeper than mere human relationships.
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Claudin_Dayoposted 13 years ago
well God has a purpose for everything.. HE is not a dictator who wanted to control our lives, the free will is so correct. But you know what in the right time, in the light of God, the eyes atheist will be opened to acknowledge the presence and existence of an ever-living Almighty God. :-)
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Claudin:
  Would you offer one line of biblical scripture that mentions free will for us. I don't mean a line that one can interpret to mean free will....the actual words: free will....ty
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  Claudin_Dayoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yeah sure, a moment please :-) I'll reach for my Bible
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  Claudin_Dayoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  oh qwark Im so sorry to tell you but there is no such thing as the exact word free will in the Bible but there had been a lot of passages that points out that man was Given by God the right to choose which is literally interpreted as free will :-)
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Claudin:
  I spent 2 1/2 yrs as a christian seminarian and bible scholar.
  There is no mention of free will in any monotheistic scripture.
  I can understand tho, why so many misinterpret biblical scripture, it is filled with mistakes, contradictions and childish stories which compare to the most fantastic fairytales. It becomes obvious to me, why there are over 39,000 differing protestant interpretations (sect/cults) worldwide which will proclaim that they, each and every one, have the "truth."
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  Claudin_Dayoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so your point is there's no such thing as free will? Or did I get you wrong qwark..
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Claudin:
  I don't think I said there's no such thing as "free will."
  My point is that many religious hubbers mention free will as something this biblical god thing construed. As tho it is to be read in scripture...and it's not!
  One who studies biblical scripture can construe free will from some of their readings.
  If there were this god thing and it was omniscient omnipotent and omnipresent, why would/could one imagine that it would create its children imperfectly and give them free will, then punish them for making mistakes? Most believers read without giving thought to what they have read. They exist as "followers," not thinkers who are involved in the subjects: logic and reason.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  quark, Freewill is when you have a choice. Somehow, you have misunderstood the meaning. The bible does not always use the exact word. By understanding the bible, you would see that God gives everyone a choice to believe in him or not. How are the scriptures filled with mistakes? The bible states that God is perfect. Did you ever read Deuteronomy Ch.32:4, second Samuel 22:31.The meaning is very clear. I encourage you to read the book of Genesis. Adam and Eve were perfect before they took a bite of the forbidden fruit. Their wrong behavior is what brought sin into this world, and this is the reason things are not perfect anymore. God is not the one to blame.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  quark, Were you forced not to believe in God?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Claudin, I agree that God will open the eyes of the atheist at the right time also.
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  Claudin_Dayoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I saw a video, not sure but it sounds like a documentary a certain atheist said that it is easy to be one but when you are already lying on the bed and you are about to die, well the confusion and mind bulging ideas feels like hell ! Dying without knowing where you're going is a total ewness and frustration.
  God is soOOoo gracious, He gives sufficient time to everyone to repent, accept Him and be saved
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is written "every knee shall bow"
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Many, many things are written.
  
  I don't care what you believe. It's irrelevent to me. If free will makes you feel better about yourself and your god then so be it.
  
  Anyone truly interested in knowing the truth about what the Bible says regarding Free Will should know that it says in matters of one-true-god belief it doesn't exist.
  
  'Calvinism' or 'T.U.L.I.P.' are good search terms for those wanting to learn the truth of the matter.
  
  Free-willers have to push free will because they know that otherwise their god is a monster. But there is simply no biblical support for their claims.
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The truth of the matter is locked inside of you...search for the key to unlock your doors of perception, for he resides in you, seek him out, for he is there. It is you that must initiate, and in so doing, the apocalypse of being within reveals that which your spirit has known from the beginning. Why let me, or someone like me tell you, for your spring wells from within you.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  tommyj, Freewill means that we are free to make our own choices. Do you not make your own choices everyday?
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Woman Of Courageposted 13 years ago
God allows everyone to have freewill. This is why he allows athiests to exist. When believers are persecuted for Christ sake, we shall rejoice. Our true character is revealed when we stand on God's word and our faith in spite of persecution.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen W. O. C., Amen. Claudin you are so right.
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  Claudin_Dayoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  oh, thanks Troy..
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2besureposted 13 years ago
God is not a puppet master. He gives everyone free will to choose to believe in Him or not.
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  Claudin_Dayoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yeah right that's why there's a place we call heaven and hell. Do you believe on that?
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Master Lifeposted 13 years ago
God has given everyone a free will meaning we can choose what we want to think or believe but the truth is that Jesus is Lord and God is the most high there is no one or nothing above Him. God is a God of unconditional love, there is nothing you can do, think or believe that will stop Him from loving us.
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J.R. Smithposted 13 years ago
Isn't free will implied when God said to not eat of the tree? That's in the very begining. Then there are countless accounts where people made choices. Are you looking for the words "free will", or will you accept their meaning? There are many references to the "will of man" as well as the "will of God"
Matt 8:3 ,18:14,26:39 KJV . not sure you have a bible or not, but will is all over it.
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure there are places in the Bible that seem to imply free will. But it is never spelled out, and nothing supporting of it contradicts the scriptures which make it very clear that free will in belief of christianity does not exist.
  
  Man thinks he makes a choice to believe and serve, or otherwise, but this is just an illusion, according to the Bible. The good work -assumed as choosing to believe- is not done by unregenerate man, it's impossible, according to the Bible.
  
  Belief and salvation come only through hearing the gospel with 'ears to hear'. 'Ears to hear' are granted only by God. The Bible is explicitly clear on these things.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  J.R., I agree. Choices were made by people in the very beginning, and throughout the bible.
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tommyjposted 13 years ago
According to the Bible, atheists aren't 'allowed' to exist, but rather they are an intentional part of God's grand plan.

It seems that believers cannot know God's great glory without being witness to carnegie and destruction. So to make believers better appreciate the saving grace of salvation, atheists were created as a glaring contrast.

There's no 'free will' about it. You cannot save yourself by choosing God, for you -as a human- are simply not capable of such goodness, according to the Bible. Believers are unconditionally elected to salvation through no merit or choice of their own.

And likewise, atheists are unconditionally elected to damnation, through no merit or choice of their own.

This is what the Bible says, at any rate. But even christians typically don't care what the bible actually says.
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As well as choice. not only contrast, but as a choice for people to decide to believe or not.
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Except for that the choice you think you make is only an illusion, according to the Bible.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  tommyj, I will pray that God open your your eyes and reveal what the scriptures actually mean. I am not here to argue.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  atheists are pre-destined by god to burn in hell, yet people are supposed to have "free-will" - makes a lot of sense - not!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We make choices everyday. You have chosen to believe that God does not exist anymore. Freewill are relating to choices. It makes a lot of sense.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  how does pre-destined and free choice together make sense?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God does not force anyone to go to hell.You choose whether you go to hell or heaven by your own actions. People have hurt you. Is that a reason to hate God? The devil is the evil one, not God. Don't allow the devil to fool you.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you side-stepped the question. I don't hate god. I am not fooled by any devil. I am not choosing to go to an imaginary hell
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your question was not side-stepped. I answered it clearly above. Perhaps it was not the answer you were looking for. By reading some of your posts, it shows how bitter you are toward God. Did you believe it was a devil when you were a christian? I pray for you if you think hell is imaginary. Once again, I am truly sorry for all you been through.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not bitter. Cynical maybe, but not bitter
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schoolgirlforrealposted 13 years ago
It's called free will......that's what we have. to choose God or not to. Of couse He hopes we will choose him...read one of my latest hubs
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Better yet, read the Bible, and you'll see you're mistaken.
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Will is all over the bible, and it is quite specific. do you want passages?If you've read it yourself, how could you deny will and choice? I'll bet it's in every book, if not on every page?
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  JR Smith:
  I have to lol at the sillyness of your comments and others who believe as you do.
  You seem to remember scripture like I used to. To be able to blurt it out at a moments notice, never knowing what you just said and the inanity of it.
  1. There is no scripture that defines this god thing in any manner but opinion and conjecture...I challenge you to produce just 1.
  2.There are so many irrational, unreasoned and thoughtless comments in genesis that it amazes me how many can consider any of it to be anything but fantasy.
  3.The intention of this god thing in ref to the future of its creations is psychotic.
  4.To be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and perfect would mean to any rational human that
  a."it" could never create a mistake,
  b.would, as a loving "father" never allow his children to suffer.
  c.could have create absolute perfection.
  d.would never have let a "snake" in a tree tempt his children.
  e.would have given his children knowledge before punishing them.
  Oh it goes on and on and on.....
  The perversions of this supposed perfect "god thing" are so grievous that "it" reminds me of the legendary stories of Odin. I doubt that any of you have read them.
  My stomach is hurting from laughing so hard as I type.
  Gosh I hope I didn't offend anyone by stating the truth.
  The last time I guffawed I got banned...I'll just sit here and chuckle......:-)
  't
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I actually have to read it continually. I admire your opinion, I just don't agree with it. Most of you atheists have very little to back yourself on. You exhibit a hatred for the bible,perversing it to meet your needs. You will never accept the notion that you could be wrong about anything. Perhaps the reason you can't accept God is because you'd have to worship something besides yourself. Laugh away, It won't change my opinion. Is this about the "will" thing? Sorry,it's in there. As for your "challenge", You know I cannot prove he exists anymore than you can prove he doesn't. The challenge of a coward. Your need to attack believers tells the whole story. Laugh, Guffaw, whatever. I've watched you as you've watched me,you are hardly an intellect and your opinion couldn't mean less. I would laugh and guffaw, but it's actually quite sad.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  J.R.
  I hope you don't read your bible the way you've read my comment. You read it and made presumptions based on nothing I said. My goodness. You seem to be so easily led by your obviously bigoted sense of correctness.
  I am not an atheist, agnostic, deist or a believer in mythical supernatural divinities.
  I never asked you to prove anything! Where did you come up with that assumption? I asked you to define that which your bible doesn't, except in opinion and conjecture i.e. what is this god thing you worship? Pls provide scripture, for me.
  You seemingly read that with no understanding. I can understand why you are confused by the bible if you read with no more understanding than you just exhibited.
  How/why can you call me a "coward" when it's you who back off when cornered with a challenge you KNOW you cannot defend yourself against?
  How do you know I'm not an "intellect?" You judge me?...lol
  There is nothing in any monotheistic scripture that uses the words "free will." You can only read and assume that this mythical god thing, which couldn't create perfection, gave an "imperfect" man free will and knew from the git-go that "it" had created "imperfection" and would, eventually have to destroy and punish his children...even destroy them 1 by one.
  I have never in my 60 yrs met a devout believer who was a thinker. All have been obsequious followers. You have alota company.
  I wish the best for you and hope that you wallow in bliss for many years to come......:-)
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. I can't believe you are that old. you sound much younger. You did challenge,read the posts. Since you don't allow bible, the whole thing is opinion to you. If you can't find the word will in your bible, what can I say? It's there. It's all through it literally and in definition. It doesn't really matter, since you don't believe,anyway. As for your intellect, I've seen you on various posts, you will never foresee yourself as possibly being wrong. You lash out at believers,chasing religious forums with whatever it is you believe. You have never met a thinker that didn't have the same views as you,I'm sure. As for judging you, you attacked me, remember? You make little sense,attacking freewill. Are you not in charge of your posts? Are they pre-destined? Hardly scientific. As for my comprehension,I can't see why you are confused,just that you are.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  J.R. You made a statement, What am I confused about? can you back up that comment with anything other than opinion and conjecture?
  If you can, you will excite and astound me!
  If you can't, I just have to consider that you aren't a credible hubber. You offer info you have no understanding of.
  I'd have to consider you to be a typical believer in monotheistic myth who hasn't done his homework and has no intention of doing so.
  Pls, pay attention now. Offer me scripture in any monotheistic tome that defines this "god" thing in any manner other than opinion and conjecture.
  You can't.
  And, as far as "free will" is concerned, why would a perfect entity create the necessity for it when "it" could have created a perfect being and a perfect world for it to exist within and upon?
  Pls think about this before you offer a trite religious reply.
  TY...:-)
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You full well know that I cannot provide scripture that you will accept. You know that I use a bible,and that is not acceptable to you. I believe and you don't. If I do make a point, you will respond with insult. Your gibberish doesn't even make sense when you read the posts back. You wouldn't tolerate anything less than God's DNA. Best of luck to you.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  J.R. lol
  You know that if you could, you would.
  The FACT that you can't places you in the the realm of the incredible.
  You exist as but another who is incapable of understanding logic and reason and would rather exist in a world of fantasy and myth.
  I have no problem with that.
  It is you who have to live your life in the isles-of-the-blessed. It is said: "ignorance is bliss."
  I wish you a blissful life! :-)
  Thanks for hubbing with me. :-)
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're right about that!If I could, I would. Of course if any man could prove God, then faith would no longer exist and the entire Bible would fall apart,right?
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  J.R.
  Again you prove my point.
  I have never NEVER asked for proof of this god thing.
  I hate to repeat myself, but it seems you can't read with understanding.
  Enuf! Sleep well....:-)
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God's DNA? How can a spirit have DNA?
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yes, what sort of parent uses such trickery? Then punishes them way out of proportion to the crime?
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  IF cause and effect is true, and this is part of the science that supplants that which religion is all about, then your free will is adversely effected by so many variables that it really can't be called free will. On the order of "Life is what happens while you're busy maling other plans" We maintain a minor control which extends only minutely beyond our own personal space. IF to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, then free will is something which really doesn't exist. The only free will is given by the divine, and then the choices are heaven or hell.
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeh, this too. Excellent points, more or less, until the last sentence or thereabouts. Free will is just an illusion.
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exorterposted 13 years ago
God allowed Adam and eve to eat the forebiden fruit, god allows people to do what they want to it is their choice, if people want to choose to deny Him it is their choice. Denying God is not what He would want, but it is peoples choice, besides that if some a few of the atheists see and hear the right things from the Christians they just might convert. We must throw the right seeds and just mabe they will tare root and become one of God's people.
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. Each subsequent step is necessary to complete the journey and reach the destination. The destination? Complete civilization of man. That is why we are here.
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william345posted 13 years ago
What you should do is follow jeasus and dont pull anay stupid tricks!
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus be leadin'. I don't see you. Must be bringin' up the rear.
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J.R. Smithposted 13 years ago
it is all over the bible. It's called "will", since free will is a redundant term. Did you not mention the bible first? I'm sorry to point it out, but the will of man is not only all over the bible, but it is very specific. You ought to read it sometime. You claim to have, but if you can't wrap your head around the presence of will in the bible,I can't believe you've read it. Here are just a few passages directly involving will,have someone read it to you.
Matt 8:3,18:14,26:39 Mark 3:35 John 1:13,4:34
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agreed that it is so. What you fail to understand is that the biblical reality of predestination does not in any way rule out the illusion of your free will.
  
  So you are allowed to think that you chose to believe, and that by doing so you accomplished your own salvation via your own pre-regenerate desire for a god in your life. That is your viewpoint.
  
  However, the Bible also makes it very clear that your viewpoint is incomplete, and that your desire for a god in your life came not from the unregenerate you, but from the god which called you.
  
  It becomes increasingly clear to me that you have much to learn about the bible if you cannot even intelligently discuss predestination. Predestination allows for your illusions of free will. There is no need for me to dispute it. Free-will as you define it in the matter of choosing salvation does not in turn allow however for predestination. So the burden is on you to make them compatible.
  
  I have heard some interesting ideas there. You offer nothing. It's pretty clear you don't even know what you're talking about.
  
  I've said what I came to say, explaining to the OP that atheists are a part of God's plans, biblically. I won't waste any further time rehashing the same old uninformed arguments of free-willers I've already worked my way through some 12 or 13 years ago.
  
  Good luck with that.
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, we do not accomplish our own salvation. It is offered to all of us, but the accomplishment is all God's. That's in the book,too.
  We are not pre-destined. the bible does not support that at all. We have been given choice. It's clear I don't know what i'm talking about? I gave you several passages refuting your arguement. As for an intelligent conversation, you insulted first. It's clear you have not read the bible. Pre-destination removes the need for scripture or law, anyway. You defeated yourself with your own arguement! Best of luck to you.
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Damn! Wish I had said that:))
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  exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  tommyj, I agree God does call, but we do not have to answer, God has a task for us, but we do not have to do it, God would rather not have un-believers, God would rather not have starving children in the world, but man has made a mess of every thing, that is not God's will.
  I agree predestination is a fact, but we do not have to live up to it, it is our choice, we do not have to live up to what God expects.
  again it is our choice.
  It is all ways our choice,
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Everything is God's will. There is no will but his. No matter what I choose. What will be, will be. If I choose left, then God will catch me on the left, if I choose right, then God will catch me on the right. To believe less, denies the power. One for sure...I will be caught.
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  exorterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is your choice if you follow God or not
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william345posted 13 years ago
could you be one of my friends?,the holy bible dose tell the truth ,in addition holloween is a bad holiday it is the devils holladay but i do not like it because people like to play pranks on you ,they would put drugs and nife blades in your kids candy you should go to the hopital to get your chilrends candy exrayd befour eating it.
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A horse! A horse! My kingdom for a horse! Alas poor Yorich! I knew him, Horatio. Heark! What light through yonder window breaks? It is the moon, and Juliet is the sun! That's what I said, an' I ain't repeatin' nor repealin'.
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  Dave Barnettposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God allows atheists and agnostics to satisfy a need to hurt himself, suggestive of a mental disorder. Masochism is never pretty, especially in one who already displays classic symptoms of schizophrenia coupled with bi-polarity causing his moods to fluctuate drastically from millenia to millenia. Patient also seems to display periods of manic depression/and or behavior. Never one to consider suicide, he dwells more on the idea of ending everyone else's existence while at the same time, needing their love and affection, even to the point of worship. Abject feelings of betrayal and failure have made the subject paranoid to the point that there is no more that we can do but institutionalize for the remainder of his eternal existence.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He allows you to exist because he is a loving and merciful God but he has not found you worthy to call to serve. You know, in a way you are serving, you help believers know what they are up against and to learn the tricks of the enemy. Keep serving as you have been, all it does is let me know I am on the right path and it strengthens my convictions.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Don, are you a christian? If not you should be. We need people such as yourself.
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  tommyjposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Don Wposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not Troy, but if I'm discussing something with someone, I make it my business to know what they are talking about.
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spookyfoxposted 13 years ago
He must like people who don't abuse the caps lock.
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J.R. Smithposted 13 years ago
why do you think atheists are predestined to hell? You don't think they are capabale of choice?
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pisean282311posted 13 years ago
WHY DO YOU THINK GOD ALLOWS ATHIEST AND AGNOSTICS TO EXIST?...well because only athiest and agnostics know true nature of god...since they know secret...god can't do anything about them
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Jonathan Jancoposted 13 years ago
If God is indeed a perfect being as many people of faith will at the very least suggest, then God must not share the prejudices of us humans.
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  With exception. You can't expect God to get behind freedom of religion,can you?
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why not? I don't, personally, but why would you think a perfect being would not approve of freedom of religion?
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thou shalt have no other Gods before me. The Commandments? He said he would not tolerate it. You see how he feels about idols.
  He insists you follow his word.
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And what? He's too stupid to realize that it's truly not that simple here on earth? Or too insecure in the efficacy of his marketing program?
  
  How is it that we as mere humans can know the wrongness of compelling religious thought when the 'perfect' god doesn't?
  
  How is it that we as mere humans can respect the individual's right to personal belief, and understand the local, societal and personal nature of such beliefs, but your 'perfect' god can not?
  
  How is it that we as mere humans are much more capable of forgiveness and grace than your 'perfect' god is?
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, you do have the right. In the end you'll see he won't tolerate it.Marketing? Insecure? As for forgiveness, He will keep you from hell, if you follow him. Humans are not capable of that. I understand that you don't believe,that's fine. I wouldn't believe either if i thought was stupid,insecure with poor marketing skills incapable of forgiveness.best wishes.
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  His forgiveness is only conditional. His understanding seems very limited and his compassion is contingent.
  
  What if I believe in Allah instead?
  
  Why won't he tolerate our human tendencies to follow whatever god our society presents us with? Why won't he tolerate an honest atheist or agnostic who chooses to abstain due to the great many worldly variables we face?
  
  Why is he not big enough or wise enough to understand these very simple to comprehend things?
  
  Why did he create a world and a people innately flawed according to him and destined by his own design to destruction, and then create a plan for salvation that is based on humans believing in a story which is not only unverifiable but also highly questionable, and in many parts of the world not even allowed?
  
  Why did he also permit dozens of other god-stories to be created which only further muddled the soup? And why is the one 'right' god-story so completely unbelievable? Did he not know that sooner or later we'd figure out the timeline was off by millenia?
  
  Does he not understand that logic and honesty would compel humans to view his plan of salvation and his story of creation as extremely dubious?
  
  If he cannot understand any of this, then he certainly is no better than humans, who can and do understand these things, and in fact he would seem to be completely unworthy of worship.
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still waiting for answers...
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  Jonathan Jancoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice to know all of those pedophiles (oh, excuse me, Carpocratians if you insist on a term slightly less offensive) in the Catholic Church will be allowed into heaven simply for believing. Of course, as a Luciferian (or Marcionist, if you insist) I don't interpret the so-called "god" in the OT the same way you do. And no I am not anti-Semitic before you ask.
  Of course, pedophilia, rape and incest, technically, are not forbidden in the 10 Commandments so I guess all of those bishops and priests are free from being judged by God when they die. Makes one wonder who/what this Yahweh being really is.
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Adultery? Wouldn't that fall under that?Besides, adhereing to the commandments is not what Catholics believe get them to Heaven. The Catholics have much to answer for,anyways.
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  J.R. Smithposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Noone is free from judgement,anyways. Saved or not.
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  Jonathan Jancoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly agree with that.
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  mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one is saved from judgement. To an extent, I agree. Do you think that small children that have gone on will be judged?
  
  What kind of christian are we that we feel the insecure need to call even those that do not believe names?
  
  I, in no way shape or form, am not judging, anybody.
  
  Jesus went into bars, and into places that I would never go. Why did He go? Did He call anyone there names?
  
  Do you think He liked the idea of what they were doing when He visited them? Did He stand out in the crowd with a stone in His Hand ready to stone the woman?
  
  Or do you think He, with compassion, showed those peoole the unconditional love that we "are supposed to know of"?
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  skipper112posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  j r smith
  I agree there have been some bad catholics and Church of England and any other religion you can think of. Jesus said 'to love your nighbour as you love yourself.' or words to that effect, which means you cannot molest rape or harm another , and Catholics wil all be Judged the same as everybody else.
  
  Catholics will not recieve special treatment at judgement day I belive this and I am Catholic.
  
  Also Catholics have no more or no less to be judged that any other Religion.
  Thank you for your comment.
  God Bless
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jondavposted 13 years ago
WHY DO YOU THINK GOD ALLOWS ATHIEST AND AGNOSTICS TO EXIST?...

...because MAYBE he doesn't (work it out!)
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qwarkposted 13 years ago
What makes anyone think that an "imagined" supernatural divinity can do anything?
Get real!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God is real. He is doing great things!
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  Love and Peaceposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Explain great things, please.
  Because as far as I know he hasn't found a cure to cancer which has taken how many lives? (including my mother's). Or a cure for world hunger, or why people murder or he can't even answer the topic of this post, why atheists exist. If he is doing great things, I would like to know what they are, because they sure as hell haven't helped anyone I know.
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william345posted 13 years ago
they can know gods glory all you have yo do is go to church
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Don't even have to do that, just open yourself up to the power. Offer your self up and say NOT MY WILL, BUT YOURS, oh great god of the universe. Move me in my steps.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Druid: Insane! :-)
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I tell everyone that I am totally, stark, raving mad. Pretty good way to prove sanity.
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paradigmsearchposted 13 years ago
"WHY DO YOU THINK GOD ALLOWS ATHIEST AND AGNOSTICS TO EXIST"

Because He's bored?
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Comic relief. Just in case he was asked to make a stone not even he could move. He could say Been there, done that.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, you guys have been having a party and I was'nt invited. Well you know, work to be done, bills to pay and life to live. Some of the proof needed to solidify Gods word is that he was right about the world and the nature of those he chose to allow to inhabit it. What he spoke of as the true nature of man is evident in the comments made here. Life is too short, you had better wake up and smell the coffee. before you wake up and smell the sulfur. I pray that you do before it's is too late.
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  lambservantposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God allows these to live because He made them and loves them. Jesus himself said blessed are you who are persecuted for righteousness sake. If he did not believe that persecution would be done, he would not have made that statement. There have been a lot of persecutors and athiests who have come to Christ. Saul of Tarsus persecuted the Christians before he became one. C.S. Lewis was an intellectual athiest but later came to Christ. I suppose he also allows them to live to give them the opportunity to come to Christ like everyone else. Christ forgave his persecutors on the cross when he said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Truth is, I think God wins all the marbles. Saying more would give away the end of the story, and I can see that some people have lost track of the plot. Boy, are they in for a surprise!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lambservant, I agree. Many persecutors and atheists eyes have been opened to the true revelation.
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  skipper112posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  yes even Charles Darwin died a Christian
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Were you at his bedside and he uttered those words to you?
  
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klarawieckposted 13 years ago
Oh, because they are so much fun to listen to!
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you lambservant.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Anesidora wrote:
His forgiveness is only conditional. His understanding seems very limited and his compassion is contingent.
==========
I think that you heard that from someone other that Him
- - - -

What if I believe in Allah instead?

Why won't he tolerate our human tendencies to follow whatever god our society presents us with? Why won't he tolerate an honest atheist or agnostic who chooses to abstain due to the great many worldly variables we face?
- - - -
Alla himself is said to be the God of Abraham.
Christianity is a religion that is said to worship the God of Abraham.
Islam is a religion with many denominations that disagree concerning what Gods' will is.
As does Christianity.

So we have a problem deciding which religion to follow?
NO !! .. Cause God wants us to follow him and NOT a religion.
=============================================

Why is he not big enough or wise enough to understand these very simple to comprehend things?

Why did he create a world and a people innately flawed according to him and destined by his own design to destruction,

- - - -

Why does a parent give birth to a child KNOWING that the child will possibly smoke marijuana at the age of 11 years,
Might possibly cause a drunk driving accident that kills a family of five? Etc. Etc.
A parent gives birth to a Child hoping for the best.
==========================================================

and then create a plan for salvation that is based on humans believing in a story which is not only unverifiable but also highly questionable?
- - - - - -

Yes parents go get their children out of trouble ..BUT Only when they are called upon.
=================================================
Why did he also permit dozens of other god-stories to be created which only further muddled the soup? And why is the one 'right' god-story so completely unbelievable? Did he not know that sooner or later we'd figure out the timeline was off by millenia?
- - - - - - - - -

Does the teenage child not feel the same way concerning his/her parents. BUT ... most parents have been honest with their children BUT the children had to try it their way anyway!
=======================================================

If he cannot understand any of this, then he certainly is no better than humans, who can and do understand these things, and in fact he would seem to be completely unworthy of worship.

- - - - - -

I think that he understands it better than Ya think!
My children didn't think I knew anything about their situation either. Till they had children of their own.
Then crazy Old Dad didn't seem quite so crazy.

Life seems to make more sense just before it is over IF we look back over it and recognize how we caused all of the hardships in our own life.
And if we had done things the way that we should have, our lives would have been much more pleasant .. but we wouldn't have learned the things that we have learned.
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Anesidoraposted 13 years ago
Jerami it is nice to 'see' you. I hope you're well, and I appreciate your attempts to explain these things.

My replies in bold.

Anesidora wrote:
His forgiveness is only conditional. His understanding seems very limited and his compassion is contingent.
==========

Jerami wrote:
I think that you heard that from someone other that Him
- - - -

I read it in the Bible.

What if I believe in Allah instead?

Why won't he tolerate our human tendencies to follow whatever god our society presents us with? Why won't he tolerate an honest atheist or agnostic who chooses to abstain due to the great many worldly variables we face?
- - - -
Alla himself is said to be the God of Abraham.
Christianity is a religion that is said to worship the God of Abraham.
Islam is a religion with many denominations that disagree concerning what Gods' will is.
As does Christianity.

So we have a problem deciding which religion to follow?
NO !! .. Cause God wants us to follow him and NOT a religion.
=============================================

The point remains that the god of christian bible, and the jewish one and muslim one, does not tolerate such errors in judgment, does not tolerate one's best attempts to follow him, should we be misled by the wrong religion. The most devout and good and decent buddhist is still hellbound, according to christianity.

Doesn't seem very tolerant or understanding or compassionate to me. I can understand and forgive someone for being misled, why is he incapable of the same?

(I actually do know the standard christian answer to this, but it only betrays either a lack of omnipotence or a lack of will in their god.)

Why is he not big enough or wise enough to understand these very simple to comprehend things?

Why did he create a world and a people innately flawed according to him and destined by his own design to destruction,

- - - -

Why does a parent give birth to a child KNOWING that the child will possibly smoke marijuana at the age of 11 years,
Might possibly cause a drunk driving accident that kills a family of five? Etc. Etc.
A parent gives birth to a Child hoping for the best.
==========================================================

According to the christian bible and standard christian teachings, God created us innately bound to smoke dope and kill people. He also prepared a destruction for us.

There's some pretty bad parents out there, but none of us purposely set our children up for failure and prepare for them a destruction.

and then create a plan for salvation that is based on humans believing in a story which is not only unverifiable but also highly questionable?
- - - - - -

Yes parents go get their children out of trouble ..BUT Only when they are called upon.
=================================================

No, I would do what I could to help my kids whether they asked for it or not. I certainly wouldn't make them jump through hoops and solve endless unknowable riddles first, or insist they believe in something I cannot show them to be true.

Why did he also permit dozens of other god-stories to be created which only further muddled the soup? And why is the one 'right' god-story so completely unbelievable? Did he not know that sooner or later we'd figure out the timeline was off by millenia?
- - - - - - - - -

Does the teenage child not feel the same way concerning his/her parents. BUT ... most parents have been honest with their children BUT the children had to try it their way anyway!
=======================================================

Your answer does not seem to address what I said in any way that I can see. Yes, my parents were wrong on some things, I have no doubt. I urge you not to argue the point, because you don't know my parents, lol.

If he cannot understand any of this, then he certainly is no better than humans, who can and do understand these things, and in fact he would seem to be completely unworthy of worship.

- - - - - -

I think that he understands it better than Ya think!

Yet is still -according to christianity- intent on sending us to hell if we don't believe in Jesus as savior. So he understands it, as in knows it, but has no compassion for it or tolerance.

Jerami wrote: My children didn't think I knew anything about their situation either. Till they had children of their own.
Then crazy Old Dad didn't seem quite so crazy.

Jerami wrote: Life seems to make more sense just before it is over IF we look back over it and recognize how we caused all of the hardships in our own life.
And if we had done things the way that we should have, our lives would have been much more pleasant .. but we wouldn't have learned the things that we have learned.

This is all terribly.. quaint? Sweet? i suppose, comparing the christian god to human parents, but also completely pointless. We're not talking about human parents passing on the (always questionable) wisdom of their own experience or opinions to their children.

Quite a different thing. What parent do you know who creates the world their children live in, purposely creates them bound for failure, and then punishes them to a life in hell if their children don't believe that their oldest brother was virgin born, capable of raising the dead and on a level with a saving god, and delivers all these 'loving' messages through doubtful third party intermediaries?

Nice try, Jerami. Thanks anyways for what I know are your good intentions.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Anesidora And thank you for being so kind.

I wish I could express my thoughts better.
I see some truth in the things that many people with opposing belief systems are expressing.

I'm going to try to express a crazy scenario so just bear with me.

I don't think that a god would cherish every blade of grass that just happens to spring forth from the ground.

And if God does cherish every human being, it would be because we would not really be a product of this world in the first place.

I think that it would be more like the sons of God (spiritual beings) came down to the earth to inhabit earthly flesh knowing that the flesh will soon die. The experiences of the flesh can be a heavenly thing.
But while they were in the flesh, some of us forgot from where they came.

And if we do remember? we don't want to forget from which path we came into this world, for there are many paths (Maybe) and they all do not lead back to where we came.

And who knows? Maybe some of us came in from a different path from a different place.
So for them ... My way is not the right way?

But from what I believe.. if I remember the right path and anyone follows me to my home, my father will take them in and love them as if they were his own.

That may not be the way it is... But I find comfort in the thought of that.
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Anesidoraposted 13 years ago
Jerami we have had these or similar discussions before, and I know you to be a decent, caring and honest sort of person, so why wouldn't I treat you as a friend.

You know your path is not for me, and I know mine is not for you. That's how freedom of religion should work. Mutual respect, and I respect and appreciate that in you.

Even if you think I'm hellbound, I know you genuinely care about us, and however you have worked out your christianity to accomodate that is fine with me.

I am out of here for now, headed to sleep, but Pandoras Box (me) wishes you well, as always.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say that you or any others are hell bound.
  
  Have a different path to return to your home ? Maybe and Maybe NOT.
  
  And I only have the best wishes for you as well
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hah!
  
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Religion says a lot of things that I do not believe.

And Hell fire is one of them.

Ya gotta admitt it. Many people are not going to appreciate the neighborhood that I would find myself most happy in.

Nor I in theirs.
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pay2cEMposted 13 years ago
If the Creator of the Universe exists, I'd say He allows Atheists and Agnostics to exist because He gave them infinitely more ability to reason than He provided proof for His existence.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and also because they are curious enough to think outside the square - so we benefit from the products of modern science & technology
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God bless you lost souls, you put so much emphasis on your wit, intellect and material things ; that you can't or wont see the big picture. I feel sorry for you, that you take joy and amusement in trying to keep others from God. I hope he has mercy on you.
  
  1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away my childish ways.
  Some people here are spiritual infants, coexisting with spiritual adults; so we must be patient with them as we would any child. Correcting and teaching them the right way to live.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I pity those who think they are seeing the big picture, but don't. I pity those that get blindly sucked in to a subjective belief system
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Baileybear to quote Richard Dawson: " I feel like a dead atheist, all dressed up and no place to go." Why have a funeral, it was here now it is gone so throw it on the trash heap. It believed in nothing but it's own worth, it thought it was the captain of it's own ship: it is now gone. The it I am talking about is an empty lost soul. That leans on it's own understanding. That has been jaded by the world and those it associates with. "You lie with dogs you get flees." All people and all souls are worth fighting for and that is why I am here. To take what little knowledge I have and to combine it with other believers, to save as many souls as God would have. Don't be an it, because that is what a lost soul is. You belong to the enemy, ther's no inbetween.
  
  All is not lost though, you can still repent, you can make the choice to ask Jesus into your life. To ask for forgiveness of yor sins: instead of basking in the glow of them That glow that last but for a moment and then you spend an eternity in torment.
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What a bunch of condescending rubbish.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I've written a hub about my views on death. You are fighting to save a portion of people that has not been proven to exist, in the name of a being that has not been proven to exist
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, the righteous do need to feel superior to everyone else by looking down on them condescendingly. It's a lifestyle.
  
  At least we have wit and intellect.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You say .. "At least we have wit and intellect (to go with that) ???
  
  And we ALL think that OUR wit and intelect is "BETTER" than everyone elses.
  
  seems that we are all in a single catigory?
  
  We are making progress. we agree on something.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Looks like Beelzedad has better spelling and grammar
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'd take wit and intellect anyday over a false sense of comfort and a superiority complex.
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  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The superiority you mistake for our unmovable faith in God is just that mistaken. I would say that people who call others stupid, narrow minded, arrogant and brag about wit and intellect (implying the christian has neither of these) and an "imagined" supernatural divinity or tell us to 'Get real' and a host of other bad names/things are the ones really trying hard to be superior by talking down to us constantly and badgering etc.
  A lifestyle commonly acquainted with atheism.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Unmovable faith in god is one thing, but to use that faith to belittle others and threaten us with their gods is another.
  
  So sorry if you feel the standards are too high for the lifestyles of atheists, but I wasn't bragging about using what your god gave me, just agreeing with Troy.
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God's Girlposted 13 years ago
Because God IS love. His desire is for ALL of His children to be saved. He has no favorites. He loves ALL of His children.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Let us suppose that there is not a higher power than mankind.
Lets suppose that mankind continues to evolve exactly as many proclaim that it has.
Considering the advances that we have made in just the last 200 years.... can anyone imagine what might be accomplished over the next 10,000 years or 50,000?

Man kind finds or creates a method to end all disease and illness.
Mankind would become much more knowledgeable in all areas of science. ALL areas !
After 10,000 years mankind will have possession of all the powers that are now contributed to God.

What if, when we arrived there, we find that we were not the first?
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds like mormonism. Just sayin'.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do any of you here celebrate Christmas in any way? Do you buy gifts, a Christmas tree, send cards or take the day off? Have you ever exclaimed, "O My God?" Have you ever called on the name of Jesus when trouble hit?
  
  If you answerd yes to any of these questions, then you must know on a subconscious level that God exists and that in itself is even more proof of him. Why would your innermost being call out to a God that isn't there? Aswer, it wouldn't.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  those have pagan origins, BTW
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  mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Pagan? Could you explain what pagan means? To you.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  look up the history of christianity - comes from paganism
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  mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  thats what I was a thinking/
  
  The word pagan, it just sounds like a bad thing, when in fact it is more closely tied to nature than todays traditional church.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  symbols of christianity like wedding rings, cross, christmas etc from paganism
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  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A difference is that we do not worship our icons. The cross is a symbol and nothing more, we do not bow down to it, we bow to jesus. Wedding rings are just a good idea as a symbol of wededness lol i guess thats not a word haha but again we do not worship this ring.. perhaps some may find value in the gold the ring is made of but in any case it is not 100% but a much smaller percentage who may worship the wedding ring. Christmas is touchy. lol. I personally do not celebrate christmas and here i have to agree this is pagan, no matter how christendom decides to wrap it up and present it, i stay separate from the event and buy myself stuff in january when prices are very low. Tatoos are something i think should be stayed away from and certainly the person who has snakes and flaming skulls all over themselves will find repulsive if ever they give their heart to jesus.
  It was the church in rome that decided to incorporate paganism into their bosom, the early church, the upper room church of acts 2 was completely separate from the church in rome which became the catholic church in rome and even then the early church was separate from it.
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  mom101posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The native americans, are they not also considered pagan?
  
  I have always "celebrated" Christmas. As a kid, I was thrilled with the thought of getting new toys, if not but one.
  As I grew older, and came to know the meaning of Christmas, I gave that day to Jesus, (though not likely His birthday, and since I do not know which day it is) to celebrate His birth.
  
  I almost hate going to the store to pick up a needed item during the Christmas season. When did we let Christmas become soooo commercialized?
  
  Yeah, I agree, Jan holds many bargains.
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  hanging outposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  pagan was the term applied to all other religions that did not celebrate the jewish god of the bible. Gentiles are pagans too.
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Answer: For the same reason I mutter the uncensored version of fudge when I stub my toe - it's just a colloquialism.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have never heard about what the Mormons believe.
  
  I wasn't expressing my beliefs ! I sometimes postulate things that I had never thought about before.
  
  I was attempting to explain where I thought Atheism would lead if they were correct and continued through their thought process.
  And how that leads us back to where we are today concerning concepts. Except that we would be looking through the window from the other side.
  If we evolved over the past 1000s of years as Atheist believe, and we continue to evolve at the same rate? ?
  Where does that take us in our future. ???
  
  I have never heard about what the Mormons believe.
  Maybe Atheist are Mormons and haven't realized it YET !
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  Anesidoraposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well mormons believe more or less that all humans can become gods, that they -at least- will become gods. Not the rest of us of course, lol, and certainly not atheists I'd reckon, so there you differ for sure.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So Mormons think that they achieve this in a lifetime and Atheist think it will take a millennia ?????
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cathylynn99posted 13 years ago
there is a new testament verse that says all will be judged according to the light that they have. someone who never heard of christ and loves his neighbor as himself will therefore go to heaven. when i was a christian, i thought this was fair. this verse doesn't get me out of hellfire(assuming there is such a thing), though, because i have studied the bible, so have "lots of light" and still don't currently believe.

i think that when you die, that's all they wrote. if by some unlikely chance there is a heaven and a loving god, everyone, even hitler, will go to heaven. of course, hitler will spend his first 6 million years there washing jewish feet and loving it.
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  Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And like the great PHROPHET(Curtis Mayfield)once sang..."If there's a hell below, we all gonna go.
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  CMHypnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  or the other great quote 'heaven for the climate, hell for the company!'
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cathylynn99posted 13 years ago
i have no interest in persecuting christians or anyone else. i had people angry with me when i was a christian just because i was a christian. it wasn't fun or fair. i would never do that to someone. i am a tolerant atheist/ agnostic.
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  skipper112posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  cathy,
  you give a honest view, thank you.
  God bless
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CMCastroposted 13 years ago
In the creation of Man and Woman in Genesis chapter 2 and 3, God had a plan to have the Perfect Couple to Take care of His Paradise. But then Woman and Man decided to do things differently and disobeyed God. He cast them out of the Garden and Sin entered into this world, and man made choices how he wanted to believe.
The decision of non belief in God and His Principles is a personal choice, but then someone decided to collect all the nonbelievers together and labeled them as atheists or agnostics. A personal decision on Belief in God rests totally on the individual- He or she will have to deal with the spiritual consequences of their decisions in time.
MATTHEW 22,verse 14 says, "many are called, but few are chosen."
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  CMCastro, I was just about to use that verse. Good Job.
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J.R. Smithposted 13 years ago
I just was curious about some catholic doctrine that doesn't make sense to me. I mean no offense.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The atheists and others are here so that they, too, might see the light of God's understanding, and thereby, be saved. Why ask why are these sinners allowed to exist, when, in fact, you too were in a sinful state when God found you. You would be an ungreatful wretch. Would you not?
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  Castlepalomaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My QUESTION is, why not just adjust mistakes rather than carry sins?
  Why regret personally or the whole pass all together?
  Its only what you or I do in the future is what we could regret?
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tastybrainposted 13 years ago
A better question would be "Why does god let rapists, murderers, and genocidal dictators exist?" Better yet, "Why does the God of the old testament act like a chauvinistic, warmongering, wrath-filled despot?" How about "Why doesn't God condemn slavery but instead condone it?"

The answer has already been offered and is the easiest to comprehend: Because God is the ultimate personification; we have invented him to motivate ourselves to behave properly.

Free will? You must be kidding. The Jehovah persona depicted in the Bible doesn't care a bit about free will. If he did, he would leave his creation to do what they want without threatening those who don't follow his rules with death and destruction. What good is free will if your choices are not really free? "Love and obey me! It's your choice. If you don't, you go to Hell!" This sort of free will is no different from the free will political dissidents in China and North Korea enjoy.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  good observation. Of course, believers will accuse you of being a hater and for persecuting them
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's a little unfair. I do neither. Human beings decrying the existence of other human beings. Man is responsible for the state of man. Why else would repentance exist.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Tastybrain, I would truly enjoy listening/reading your full interpolation (piece, piece work, peace work or otherwise) of Tanakh, since you choose to refer to it. But before you do, please explain precisely --and in as much detail as possible-- the tone the history was written in, by whom and then reiterate to us that this Persona is, in fact, those characteristics pointed out by yourself.
  
  You see, the dialogue of Torah/Tanakh is the most highly misinterpreted/misread dialogue of any and perhaps all human scribed letter, book, poem, quip, prose...combined.
  
  As I recently had the pleasure of speaking to another: translating a Russian love letter to Inca dialect Spanish, reads precisely like a hate letter from an ex-mother-in-law.
  
  Something to keep in mind...
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
There is no god. Could account for a lot of things.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God is showing his wayward children mercy by not paying them the wage of thier sin, which is death. He is giving them every opportunity to repent and receive his gift of salvation. Yes, even you earnest.
  God Bless you all with Love, Troy C.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I guess he learned his lesson after drowning everyone on earth with the flood and still nothing changed! What's a god to do?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I thought he left a few behind to have incestuous relationships to grow the population again, like with Adam and eve.
  Not a happy chappy this god.
  
  Keeps losing it and destroying everything like a petulant 3 year old.
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Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago
Why? Because your god has no power over those who do not believe in him! Do you worry about bigfoot? Why not? Don't you believe in him?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What exactly do you mean? God will not force anyone to believe in him. Everyone has the opportunity to choose on their own to recieve the precious free gift of salvation.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Who gives you the authority to speak for everyone WOC? Seriously, did your god give you this power, or did you just appoint yourself as his spokesperson?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hello? Anyone there?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Randy, No one gave me authority. I decided to share a wonderful word with you. Have a blessed day!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Great! What is the word? And you are so right, no one gave you any authority at all to speak for any deity! But this doesn't seem to stop you, does it?
  
  Blessed by whom?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You twisted my words. God have gave me authority to share the gospel. I open my heart up to him and allow him to use me.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We can then conclude that god has given you the authority to not respect others, which is to what that boils down. If that is the case, why then should we respect your sharing of the gospel?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Have a nice day!
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for making my point.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is not disrespect to share the gospel. God's word is not disrespectful. This is my point and the conclusion.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not disrespectful?
  
  If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
  
  How about murderous?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It seems that it is written that God first said that he was not going to send any prophets for a certain period.
  
  Maybe he did this cause there were too many False prophets that were teaching false doctrin. Establishing too many "Interpretations" and thus different denominations.
  This is where the term "nip it in the bud" came from.
  
  If this was wrong back then? It would be wrong today?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jeremy do you believe this to be a disgusting view of humanity?
  Kill people who don't believe in you? How sick is that?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do I have to believe everything that I read? May be I do and maybe I don't in this instance.
  
  I was just telling ya what it was saying.
  You were only making a half truth.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How so?
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sandra rinckposted 13 years ago
God let atheist and agnostics exist to lift the veil of the believers.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Women Of Courage, you have been given the athority to speak for God.
  1 PETER 2;9 But you are a chosen people, a royal piesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
  
  Don't let the people of this "lost generation" let you lose sight of that, keep fighting the good fight and be assured of your reward in the end
  Love and Blessings, your brother in Christ, Troy C.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Randy , the snake you have on all your posts represent the serpent you serve. I hope you find your way home one day. Your last name says it all, God Wins.
  Love and prayer, Troy C.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for the word Troy, I will not lose sight of that for sure. God bless you brother.
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Anesidoraposted 13 years ago
Yeah really. Where are the parents in all this? Whatever happened to eating your young?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Sorry I was off watching krouss videos.

How so?
You were neglecting to tell the whole story as written.
It was written that God wasn't going to be sending any prophets during this period of time.

And anyone seen prophesying were fakes and blasphemers.

From the prospective this story protrays .. this was kinda like executing spys or terrorists.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You still seem to totally miss the psychosis in this god's behavior, and instead find a way to justify it?
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Another reason God allows them to exist here in the hubpages is so that when we face the enemy in the physical world, we are better equipped to handel the situation. I'm learning more and more about his tactics.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ironic you cannot even tell the enemy from self?
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That sounds oddly backwards, no?
  Shouldn't it be ha-satan learning our tactics.
  Seems peoples' impression of "God" is still reversed.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  good luck trying to "save" those you consider to be the enemy - it's crazy how believers see non-believers of their faith as satan-followers, swines, the enemy etc. Like that's really going to attract people into the cult?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But he "luvs me" he truly does! He said so!
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Just expressing an opinion as politely as I know how.

You say that these storys were written by ignorant goat hearders. I'm Just trying to understand what they were were thinking.
Your next line is suposed to be ,,, They wern't

Sure they were. They were just doing the best that they could with what they had.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and so people should build their lives around the myth? Believe in a psychotic god? Burn the OT? What?
  The biblical god is a psychopath. The words, feelings, actions of this god under any circumstances, in any age for any reason, to any people no matter what they did is psychotic.
  
  Impossible to miss, the threats and posturing are massed in the "good book"
  
  How in all hell can you all gloss over the fact that this is psychotic? I always quote from your own god's words. If anyone were to make the same statements in the world today they would see a white van real quick!
  
  My only answer is indoctrination.
  
  Apparently it can cause total blindness.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No I think it is a matter of understanding our limits.
  I don't think that any one really knows what they think that they do.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still angry at the Hebrews, my brother Earnest?
  Been a minute, hope all is well.
  
  Is is cold in Australia yet?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The problem with sarcasm is it needs to be accurate and relevant.
  We are coming in to summer.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wasn't meant to be accurate, just stirring and countering. hehe.
  All is well?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All is well.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God is a very merciful God to allow his wayward children to continue their exsistence here on earth. He is also merciful because he prods them to come here to hear his word, to give them another chance to repent. Why else would people who do not beleive in God lurk around Christian forums. Either that or it's just that they don't have a life. Their lives are empty and boring with few or no freinds so they come here to get the attention that they lack in their lives. Either way , we welcome you, we love you and we hope you find friends here who wish you nothing but Gods best. I can't say that I know what it's like to be lonely because God has always been with me. So keep coming and we will try to heal your wounded egos and souls.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you read a few hubs and find out who has a life and who hasn't before casting aspersions on those who don't believe in ridiculous myths?
  
  I don't know any sad deluded non believers here on hubpages, but I see plenty of religious fanatics who have no apparent life at all and spend all day spinning the god story trying to convince themselves and others that an invisible being is reality cos a 2,000 year old self contradicting tome said so.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you here, something is missing in your life for you to lurk here if your life is so great, Why do you waste your spectacular life here.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You need some new material, if anyone were to read your posts they would see that you say the same thing over and over. You are sad and pathetic and I truly pray for you. If your life were so great why would you be here. Answer, it's not!
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  Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Please don't talk that way to my great non believing friend. He is here making money, unlike you or me. You intentionally overlooked that fact. Here's something you will see me saying alot; do you Christian think you are smart or are you too stupid to realize that people are on to you? Everybody knows how you twist words and the truth?...you are not slick?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sad and pathetic eh? But you "love me" right?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you read a bit and find out the truth?
  It's obvious to me why you're here!
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm here because God wants me here, not for the pocket change that is here to earn, because I have not made any. I'm here to serve God, period. I will admit, I started to get hung up on a score and such. But it's not about that. It's not about me, It's about God. I love the Lord God With all my soul and all my heart, he is the center of my universe. I can't help it, if you have been hurt in your life and you blame God. Maybe it was just ment to be.
  God bless you and I love you, Troy C.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your god wants you to hang around a religious forum on a writers site when that forum is internal and gets read by a handful of people who are mostly religious?
  
  I think your god needs a few lessons on marketing!
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you here? Lonely , lost, or hurting. God can and will heal all your wounds. God has placed me in other places also. Places that a person such as you would not know about. Why are you here, Mr. I'm so great. You are lonely and want attention, well you have mine; open up God bless you earnest, goodnight. Early morning service. Love you man and I mean that. Troy C.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Happy, having fun and playing with my grandchildren actually! Hard to be lonely living in a big loving family.
  You got one part right though, I am hurting. I have a sore back at the moment, do you have any remedies other than snake oil that is.
  
  You did not answer my query as to why your god wants you to be on a forum preaching to the converted?
  Your condescending assumptions are just that.
  Is your love for me like your god's love? I can really do without that kind of "luv"
  Love doesn't have conditions, that is conditional love or "You can be loved if" love. That is not what love is.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
why does god let atheists and agnostics exist?

I know I know !!!!

It is written in scriptures that they too are Gods children.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes they are his wayward children, his lost sheep, the spiritual blind and we must minister to them; even though they knock us and God. That really takes a lot of love. What I can't understand is why anyone who has such a great family would put them aside to come and insult God. Just imagine, you are playing with the grand kids and in his own words "dressed like a fairy", but you push them aside and in full fairy costume, get on the computer and spread hate. What's wrong with this picture. Everything, it is clear that something is missing in your life and that is Jesus. I truly feel sorry for people like that. It has to be a sad life to live in such a state and find it amusing; another trick of the devil and they fall for it.
  
  May God have mercy on their souls.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Someone said I was too harsh when I said someone was pathetic, I told them to look up the definition, which is causing or invoking pity, sympathetic, sadness, sorrow, etc. That is what I feel for them. They are headed to hell on the devils highway.
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  Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "They are headed to hell on the devils highway."
  I know you laughed at yourself for saying such a corny line! I fell off my chair. That was just so tired and phony.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you address me directly instead of trying to "white ant" by speaking to others about it as if I am not here?
  
  I work full time online and can multitask on 2 screens. I get to spend at least 4 hours a day with my gkids and my computer is portable so I can be with the little ones anywhere they like when they are here and not at school, or are you suggesting that I should go to the school all day as well?
  
  It seems some people don't let truth get in the way of trying to discredit others!
  You may like to flash back through this thread and speak to what I said.
  Come to think of it, that would be well out of character for a religionist from what I have seen.
  
  On another note, I have observed that gutless third person attacks seem to pass muster here rather well, while others get banned just for disagreeing.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As my dad used to say, "No answer was the firm reply"
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  Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "It seems some people don't let truth get in the way of trying to discredit others!
  You may like to flash back through this thread and speak to what I said."
  "Come to think of it, that would be well out of character for a religionist from what I have seen."
  
  Amen! My Brother!
  I know you wont agree with me...but you are closer to God than any of these cult following clowns!
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friendlyword.
  If you mean closer to "god" in telling the truth, answering questions honestly and knowing myself, I would have to agree.
  
  I have never before seen a more closed minded, ignorant, anal retentive bunch of hypocrites than the religious zealots assembled here in one place in my entire life.
  
  (A note to those who are rushing off to have me banned. If you identify yourself as a zealot this applies to you.)
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Troy C. wrote
Yes they are his wayward children, his lost sheep, the spiritual blind and we must minister to them;
====
Who are his lost sheep?
I ask this is with the most respect.
An honest question!
Who is his lost sheep? I think that we all fall into that category.
We are all in the dark.
Some of us are convinced that WE know the way outa here.
And to confirm this to ourselves we need followers.
This gives us security in our own minds.
With followers we feel authenticated.

This is true for EVERY ONE including Atheists who are spreading their doctrine as well.

Whatever our beliefs are?? They are not our own!

We have all been brainwashed/programed/indoctrinated into whatever theologies that we have read and/or heard the most .
We have often heard that we are what we eat?
Our brain eats that which it sees and hears.

In this manner I agree with something that 21 or was it Aqua had said; that to become educated is to become ignorant. (something like that)

Indoctrination is everywhere! Can't walk across the front yard without stepping in it.
========================================================
Troy C. .......... it is clear that something is missing in your life and that is Jesus. I truly feel sorry for people like that. It has to be a sad life to live in such a state and find it amusing; another trick of the devil and they fall for it.
- - - - - -

As I said above... I think that most of us are in that category. We are all in the dark here!
And it seems that Everyone is giving directions as to how to come out of the dark.

Giving directions do not work. We forget them before we get half way there.

What would work is for someone to turn on a bright light to show the way. Then we could all see it.

Just my opinion.
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  Squirrelchaserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Geez. this is a popular forum! I'll put in my two cents.
  
  There is no "God". Before "God" there was idol worship and anthropology and history and archeology show how man moved from worshipping idols, building systems of worship including temples, songs, programs, priests, etc., from many gods to one God. Just as tribal people and island people were taught to believe in Christianity instead of their own god or gods. It's all a hoax like Santa Clause. Little children have faith in Santa Clause. But there comes a time when they begin to question the validity of Santa. Just as today's CHristians and Muslims and Jews, etc. need to question the validity of "God". We keep on indoctrinating our children into these faiths. The blind faith of children. But very few ever question the hoax.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  None of my children have been indoctrinated.
  
  Interestingly they don't spend time praying to a 2,000 year old myth. Too busy being real, doing real things and being good citizens.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is something similar to what I have always said. That the invention of Santa Clause wasn't a good thing.
  
  The first hurtful lie most parents tell to their children.
  It eventually hurts their child. Was it worth it? Did the joy of Christmas out weigh the eventual sorrow?
  Probably so???
  
  But that does give doubt of there being a higher power.
  The child will think, they lied about Santa, I wonder what else they are lying about?
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Uninvited Writerposted 13 years ago
Please people...there is no E in Santa Claus...

Now back to your regularly scheduled hate fest...
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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skipper112posted 13 years ago
The answer to your Question is simple, God gave us free will.
That's it pure and simple " Free Will"
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