Hubpages reneging on Hubs that at one time they called Quality --

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Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years ago
Hubpages looks like they are going to go through everyone's hubs and ones they once considered quality they are now going to consider throw away for the 700-1200 length. So ones that were at one time featured may no longer be featured.
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  Sherry Hewinsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I've had that experience too, and I understand how you feel. A 500 word hub of mine that was once HOTD was unfeatured for being poor quality. But, I understand that things change. Google changes it's algorithms and HubPages must make the adjustments it judges necessary to keep up. Apparently their opinion is that Google doesn't like short hubs, I guess I have to take their word for it that it's for my own good.
  
  I liked my hub so much the way it was, I was resistant to changing it. My first impulse was to just delete it and possibly use it elsewhere. I ended up rethinking it and adding a few paragraphs from a different slant, and a couple of videos. I think that was better than trying to plump up my existing text. Anyway, I'm over 700 words now, and all of the goal boxes are checked. My revamped hub is republished and featured.
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  WryLiltposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Was it unfeatured for "engagement". That just means low traffic. You can write a 5,000 word hub and still get low traffic.
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  DigbyAdamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Paul E. made the statement that Engagement isn't just about traffic. Going forward it will include Social Signals and other factors. I wish he had explained that better. I think I sort of know what he's talking about. I think you and Marissa are both misleading people when you simplify it that that. Engagement might well mean things like getting your Hub pinned or did someone like it on FB.
  
  You're really good at understanding the Social aspects of the Internet, so this is really to your benefit. I'm still figuring out how to write to engage my readers. First yest they have to find my work, Then they have to pin, Share it. Talk about. That's a far different want to write and engage the world.
  
  Google Plus, authorship, authority a following. They're all going to fit into Hubs and online as well. I'm thinking of HubPages as just a tutorial, that's helping me sort out a much bigger picture.
  
  BTW, I really enjoy many of your comments. You seem to get this stuff intuitively.
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  WryLiltposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well the problem with "social engagement" is that you won't get any when you don't have traffic to start with.
  
  I convert my Google traffic INTO social traffic. So if 100 people visit my hub from Google, 20 will pin my MFP for instance, and then that will bring more traffic from Pinterest.
  
  Or I pin or share something myself which goes viral, without Google's help. But it's getting traffic which converts into more traffic.
  
  But if no one visits my hub in the first place, I'll never get those 20 pins or shares
  
  I do agree that they have issues when it comes to picking quality or seasonal hubs though
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  Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  What Paul E said was that in the future it won't just be based on traffic. Right now, it is based purely on traffic.
  
  Even when it is expanded and improved, it won't mean "engagement" in the way it's used on every other site - i.e. keeping the reader on page for longer.
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  agilitymachposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm so pleased to hear it includes social media because I had always thought it mainly included traffic and comments. My hubs get lots of comments and likes - on Facebook. They get very few comments on Hubpages as my guests don't want to "register" here just to comment. All of my good hubs have one hundred to several thousand likes on Facebook, so that's a plus!! Yeah Hubpages!!!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not exactly, but yeah all the hubs are going through QAP for assessment.
  
  And yes, hubs that were once featured may not be featured anymore if they fail QAP. It's an effort to raise the overall quality of HP.
  
  As far as I know, there is no required word count to pass the rating process although it's hard to have enough substance to pass with a 300 word hub. I'm absolutely positive it's happened though.
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  relacheposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. And they've admitted that's what's happening since Google changed all their standards. And they've said things will continue to change in the future.
  
  In the history of the Internet, nothing has ever stayed static, so really, this is nothing new.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Do check to see why your Hub is unfeatured. If the reason is "engagement" then it's nothing to do with quality, it's just that the Hub isn't getting any readers. That could be due to low quality but it is more likely to be because it's on a subject that isn't searched much, or you haven't phrased it in a way that people search for, etc.
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Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years ago
Hubpages could very well kill almost ALL its own content in one fell swoop. How will they possibly encourage their writers (you and I) to write for them if they consider everything we had once written excellent quality now poor?
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  Sherry Hewinsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, not everything. So far only 1 of my 44 old hubs has failed the new QAP.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not anywhere near all the content. I'm guessing a pretty high percentage of hubs are passing. Most of those that aren't could easily be brought up to passing with a little work. Especially those that are weak in grammar or organization.
  
  Weak in substance might be a bit harder, but it's still doable in a lot of cases.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The "encouragement" is that through de-indexing (technically your hub is still published, it's just not allowing search engines to index it), the site will get from under the Google penalty and we will get more traffic to the hubs that are indexed.
  
  I wouldn't say I am full of hope that it will happen this way. I don't exactly trust Google to be a judge of quality, but what else is there to do? I certainly wouldn't be happy if HP sat around and did nothing, even if all my hubs were indexed.
  
  I can see many problems with the QAP the way it is done now. But I'd rather have half of my hubs idled, and the remaining half getting the traffic they deserve, rather than everything indexed but buried in Google SERPs.
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  GA Andersonposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Cassandra - I have not visited your hub, so this is not a critique, or smart remark, but...
  If your hub was published before the start of "Google's trials and tribulations" then it doesn't really mean HP thought it was a quality piece - at that time, anything that did not violate TOS got published.
  
  Now, everyone has to dance to a different "quality" tune - including HP. And as already mentioned, your hub may have been "unfeatured" due to traffic, and not quality concerns.
  
  But what if it was "quality" issues - are you not a better writer now than when you started? Is all your early work up to the standards you have now as a more experienced writer?
  
  Mine weren't. And I have a lot of previously published (featured) hubs that failed the QAP process - and rightfully so. Sort of like a sixth grader looking at their first grade writing.
  
  Anyway, the point is that prior to the initiation of QAP - the fact that a hub was published did not mean HP, (or the world) thought it was quality work.
  
  GA
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  Jean Bakulaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm confused. So has this "engagement" test already happened, or is it in the process of happening, or is it in the future? I've always written rather long hubs, and people usually hang out long enough to read them. I don't try to make them long, but my style of writing is usually a long lead in, a habit I'm trying to break. My computer has been sent out for repair, so I'm using my son's when he's not using the laptop, and I'm not online as much the last few weeks. Hopefully the computer will be back soon.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have Google Authorship, a blog, a Google+ page, twitter, tumblr, facebook, stumbleupon and a following outside Hubpages, but hubpages at this moment and time does not translate into that world. Not all their articles show up in google world that they claim they are promoting. I have done everything to put them out there, and the rest is up to them.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, nothing is up to HP... at least not when it comes to promoting your work. It's all on you.
  
  If you want someone to promote your writing, hire an agent.
  
  If you want to be paid directly for your writing, instead of by revenue-sharing, then have a go at the freelance writing business in print... or go to text-broker or constant content or any of the other ridiculously low paying venues... (although CC isn't bad if you know what you're doing)... Or start your own blog and do your own revenue sharing deal ... or start your own freelance business.
  
  I'm not sure what exactly you are hoping to get out of this conversation... If I knew I'd be better able to help.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  There is one part that is left to HP - algorithms. That is there job. If they are not doing there job right to some degree it doesn't matter how much you promote your work. Plus, I don't know about you, but I expect to be able to find my work searchable in a search engine - say Google OR yahoo. Do you write the algorithms that create that magic? You are going to pay to have a piece promoted that HP won't promote or who originally promoted then reneged on promoted. It is just not kosher to change the rules in the middle of the game with already published works.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  My hubs ARE searchable in Google and Yahoo.
  
  HP NEVER promoted anything of mine... ever. All they did was give me a platform to publish as long as I met their rules. Nothing about that has changed, except now the standards are higher.
  
  If you want your hubs featured, fix them so they are. If you don't, then don't fix them, or move them somewhere else.
  
  Do you need help with information on how to pass QAP?
  
  It is perfectly acceptable to change the rules in the middle of the game if the old rules aren't working. Low quality hubs weren't working for HP so they decided to redefine the standards.
  
  And I have no idea what you mean by algorithms... which ones do you have an issue with?
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If you don't know what algorithms are Melissa please look them up. We are on the internet.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, my vocabulary is quite good actually. If you see the second part of the question, you would see the clarification of the first part... which is which algorithms that HP is running in specific do you have a problem with?
  
  Obviously, you must have one in specific that you are concerned about.
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  Bill Yovinoposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  al·go·rithm
  noun \ˈal-gə-ˌri-thəm\
  Definition of ALGORITHM
  
  Algo - slang for Alligator
  Rithm - Latin for Get down and boogie.
  
  : a procedure for solving mathematical problems involving prancing reptiles;
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  habeeposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Al Gore - former VP of the United States
  rhythm - patterned timing, especially with movement
  
  algorithm - a dancing guy who invented the internet
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  calculus-geometryposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  HP does not have any influence over Google's, Yahoo's or any other search engine's algorithms. You are misunderstanding Melissa's point.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well I know that. But that doesn't mean that HP is not suppose to make sure our articles are not in their search engines.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Cassandra, I had a quick look at your profile, and it seems to me that, in general, your topics are far too broad.
  
  Can you give us examples of what kind of keywords you expect to rank for in search engines. I could be wrong, but I can't see how you can compete with the titles that you have.
  
  I do expect HP to get from under the Panda penalty, which I think happened briefly between March 14th and May 9th, and hopefully will happen again soon. However I don't expect them to be miracle workers and help me rank for impossible keywords.
  
  So what kind of searches do you think would lead readers to your hubs?
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have written and actually do write for another site and normally I put in my own tags.
  
  As a writer, me not being able to put in my own tags, or at least look at the tags being used for my articles is a bad thing.
  
  This then goes back to the 700-1200 word length that I don't appreciate.
  
  Most of the articles that I have read online whether from Social Media Today, the News, blogs, etc. are to the point in telling their story.
  
  Have pictures when necessary to suit the story.
  
  Recently I have felt like HP wants me to be on purposely wordy to suit their word length. Telling the writer that they won't be featured if they don't have 700 words is the wrong message if they can tell the story in 500 words.
  
  Especially if the story is 1200, and the reader may run after they read the first 500.
  
  Then the videos, polls, etc on the page won't matter. Because the reader goes into information overload when they look at the article because they are not prepared for that article in that one large chunk.
  
  What they would rather have is smaller bites, whether it be 3,4 or 5. depending on the amount of information.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I believe Google has long ago given up paying any attention to tags. What they do pay attention to are keywords in the title, H2 tags, text, etc.
  
  But you haven't answered my question. What keywords do you expect your hubs to rank for?
  
  As to the length, images etc. I am split. HP says they have evidence that "stella' hubs get a lot more traffic than short hubs with no pictures. I don't really see the evidence in the SERPs, but I can't imagine why HP would lie about their evidence. Plus the SERPs change all the time, after May 9th it seems to me they are particularly bad.
  
  I guess it comes to choice of topic. HP wants to be a site about in depth articles written for people who don't mind sticking around for 1000+ words, because not everything can be explained in 5 simple steps ehow style.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No they use all those, between the blogs, and Google+.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  From Matt Cutts himself:
  
  http://support.google.com/webmasters/bi … swer=79812
  
  If you watch the video you will hear googleman himself saying that search engines pay no attention to meta keywords.
  
  The meta tags that are important is the description=Hub summary. Actually I don't think it is used in ranking but it is usually what will show up in the search results page.
  
  And.....
  
  The title meta tag = hubpage title obviously.
  
  So what keywords in your titles do you think you should be able to rank for?
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  agilitymachposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, tags don't matter. They went the way of the Do-do bird a long time ago.
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  Sue Adamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Part of their job is there to stop poor grammar and spelling through QAP algos. We should be happy about that.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  One would hope that the hub would never be published if it had poor grammar and spelling.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, that's one of the reasons that hubs are being unfeatured. Do you think that unfeaturing a hub because of poor grammar is somehow reneging on a promise by HP? That's one of the reasons that hubs that were featured before aren't featured now.
  
  Bad grammar was once good enough and now it isn't.
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  Bill Yovinoposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I think you meant "Bad grammar was once good enough and now it ain't".
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. That is exactly what I meant. Thanks for clearing it up.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sue Adams: She completely missed your point!
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  So judgmental.
  
  No you shouldn't. I always check my grammar and spelling before I publish an article, as oppose to when I an writing on a forum.
  
  They published it after I added the new paragraph. There were no changes to the other paragraphs.
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Marcy Goodfleischposted 11 years ago
HubPages is not reneging - they're adapting to the changing demands search engines place on us. Online publishing is a dynamic arena, and the site is doing us a favor by having systems in place that draw our attention to hubs we should revise, enhance, expand or otherwise improve in order to be competitive.

There's nothing wrong with this - I'm glad we have the benefit of those 'red flags,' so we can make changes and (we hope) improve our rankings.

Good job, HP!
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DigbyAdamsposted 11 years ago
Your absolutely right WryLilt. But that social traffic will send traffic back to the Hub and the circle will keep getting bigger. I was just trying to say that traffic isn't just what Google sends any more and that engagement is more than just Google stats.
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  WryLiltposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you're right. I guess... talking the lingo and knowing in my head what I mean doesn't always transfer when I type it out
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  DigbyAdamsposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I understand completely. It's hard to verbalize what we do intuitively. Writing online has become very interactive. I find it both invigorating and exhausting. At heart I'm an introvert, and have no interest in egagement.
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DigbyAdamsposted 11 years ago
Marissa if it's GOING to be based on other things, then isn't it better to write with that knowledge in mind? There's no point in living in the past. Things change and Hubbers have to understand that - and many people who post here don't seem to want to.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely - but as others have said, it's perfectly possible to have a low-trafficked Hub which scores high for reader engagement, if it's a topic that isn't searched much.
  
  So right now, the message "not Featured - engagement" (which actually means "not Featured - low traffic") could lead a Hubber to put a lot of effort into improving "reader engagement" when in fact, what they should be doing is researching keywords, sharing and getting backlinks.
  
  That's not going to help the Hubber or HubPages, is it?
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Stories like that don't have a long shelf life because they are usually political or in the news.
  
  If you like writing about every day things they come up every once, but there someone is always interested in the topic - it is just in small tidbits.
  
  The only thing left are fads.
  
  Talk about what is happening on television.
  
  Well if everyone talks about the same thing on hubpages who is the reader going to choose
  
  Then the topics are all the same
  
  I wrote about a topic, it started out as a topic, it then became a television item after at the height went viral and then went dead because it had its day in the sun.
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psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago
A lot of thing were "going" to happen that we may wait for for ever (or at least a very long time). Like the next round of apprentices.
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  Barbara Kayposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This round of apprentices won't be finished until the end of July. I was in the program and dropped out. For me and my life at the moment, it just didn't work. They will start a new round in the fall.
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PaulGoodman67posted 11 years ago
The internet is in a constant state of flux. That makes it exciting and also, at times annoying. It is inevitable that some of the things that HP advised in the past are now wrong, or even contradictory. That doesn't mean that HP are being hypocritical, more that they are moving with the times. Often they are trying to guess what the future will be and preparing hubbers and the site for the new reality before it even arrives. It is very dangerous for a company to fall behind in the internet world.
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  Bill Yovinoposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Flux is a chemical that aids soldering. Solder contains Lead. There is a town named "Lead" in the state of South Dakota. So you're saying that the Internet is in South Dakota?
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  PaulGoodman67posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's exactly what I'm saying, Bill! Well done for working it out!
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DigbyAdamsposted 11 years ago
It's also about the quality of the traffic and what they do when they leave our hubs. It's not just about time on the page any more. I guess it's possible to deny this and stick one's head in the sand. This is truly the direction that Search Engines are going in.

It's not at all like worrying about the apprentice program. It's dangerous to become jaded and sarcastic when trying to figure out what works in online writing.

Whether or not HubPages writers change, Google and Bing are changing. Good grammar and spelling is just the bare minimum. After that it's about being entertaining and social.
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  PaulGoodman67posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Although I do agree with you, I think it's impossible not to become at least a little bit jaded by some of what goes on. I remember when Google bought Youtube and shortly after videos started appearing high up on the first page of the search results. Some might argue it's coincidence, but that sort of thing does make people like myself a bit cynical. That said, like you say, you have to go with the flow and move with whatever is deemed as quality.
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have been researching some keywords and a lot of them have a WHOLE PAGE of youtube videos as the answer. If Google did not own YouTube they would, and should, have a video section - like they do for images.
  
  Or maybe the written word is extinct.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It makes my blood boil. A kw for which I used to rank well, now has a youtube video in my position. It is not even a movie, it's a slide show using copyrighted images. Many of the images aren't that good (you'd think that if somebody bothered to steal they would at least steal the good stuff).
  
  The youtube video is made by a 14 year old (he told me when I pointed out the copyright violation. The he told me to F-off).
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  Mark Ewbieposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The rankings do seem skewed - that's being generous. I rarely look at videos - yet Google search is serving me loads of them. One keyword I checked had the word "story" in it. Now to me a story is a story with words - not some halfwit and a two minute video.
  
  Maybe it is the new way. I just don't see where any money is. One ad at the beginning that everyone skips.
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  WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Makes my blood boil too. The vast majority of videos are useless turgid, c__p, filled with morons speaking in a stumbling, incomprehensible accent at such a slow rate that I give up after a minute or so.
  
  When I search for information, I do not want to see some nobody's ugly visage on a poor resolution web cam, nor hear them waffling in a nauseating, ungrammatical whine.
  
  I want properly researched facts, with citations to original sources to back up what is being said. Of course, these are the very web pages that are punished both by Google and by Hubpages, because they do not contain irrelevant videos/polls/recipes and all the other "engagement" drivel that is deemed necessary to satisfy the mindless morons seeking incessant entertainment, who are deemed the only audience worth pursuing.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This is a Google thing especially regarding Google products. The more Google product you use, the higher in rank you will receive in a Google search
  So if you have Google authorship
  You make a video on YouTube
  You feature on your blog on blogger (or I think with a widget on Wordpress)
  and also put it on Google+
  You can triangulate around Google
  Plus share in other places you might normally share like Twitter, Tumblr, etc.
  Well, just with Google you can receive a higher rank in search with their tools
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  WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well, that is a good explanation of why Google search results produce so much unusable junk.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I agree.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is a marketing perspective. Now I don't know what the people publish although I shouldn't say that because I am a pretty avid Google+ person. I don't think it is as unusable as you may think.
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jimmythejockposted 11 years ago
No Matter what Hubpages do there are always whingers and whiners.
Hubpages want what is best for us the authors and for themselves because if the authors are not making money you can bet Hubpages are losing money too.
Maybe if we spent more time on what we needed to do to increase our traffic and less time complaining in the forums Hubpages would not need us to change anything because we would all have the super de duper Hubs that google loves.....jimmy
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is really incorrect. Hubpages is a business. They are only in the business of looking out for themselves. They only care about their bottom line. If they cared about their writers the writers would be better informed. They would also be paid. We don't work for them. They don't even pay us.
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  jimmythejockposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Hubpages have to care about their writers because without us guys there would be no money for them.....jimmy
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  PaulGoodman67posted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with Jimmy. It's in HP and the writers' interests to make a success of things. Constructive criticism is good, but pure negativity for its own sake serves no positive purpose.
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jimmythejockposted 11 years ago
Check out the Hubpages blog Jean It is all there http://blog.hubpages.com/2013/05/update … -all-hubs/ .....jimmy
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Steve Lensmanposted 11 years ago
10 of my hubs have been 'unfeatured' by someone who was probably having an off day and there's nothing to fix. I don't think redesigning my hubs will help. Google rankings on my top hubs are still in place but views are really down. Maybe its the time of year?

Regarding QAP, pulling the plug off successful hubs that have had thousands of views may be the last straw, it hasn't happened to me yet but there is that to worry about too.
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  Barbara Kayposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is what worries me too. A few of my hubs pull in good traffic. It probably takes the aging away from them too.
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Johnrr631992posted 11 years ago
I would suggest going back, making an update and adding 200 words.. I mean, if you're like me then most of your writings even before this update would be around 700+ words.. But none the less, just go add an update and 200 words, it will still be less work for ya than writing an entire new hub.. Also taht will make it more appealing to Google, and QAP process since you are updating the Hub, and will help you overall..
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I just read an article online published in Smithsonian magazine that was 518 words and I should just add 200+ words. It makes so sense.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You do realize that the people who are doing QAP aren't counting words... right?
  
  It's whether the subject matter is covered sufficiently and is helpful. Word count is an indicator, but not the only one... not even one that raters are paying attention to.
  
  I don't know of one hub that has ever failed QAP for a low word count. Low substance, now those fail all the time.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm pretty sure the Smithsonian magazine is considered a high authority site by Google.
  
  Sadly HP isn't. The difference is that the Smithsonian magazine doesn't allow just anybody to publish there. If you prefer their rules, you could always try and publish there.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I would rather read a 500 word article well written, good story too the point 500+ words with info when appropriate than an 1100 word overloaded essay with too much info I am not looking for. Then I go looking elsewhere. Information overload even when organized.
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PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years ago
Word count is definitely a factor. If a hub is below 500 words it will be unfeatured due to poor quality. I think this is ridiculous because most readers won't even look at your hub if it looks too long. I really don't care what Google's algorithm says, I know for a fact most people have short attention spans and will not invest the time reading a long winded Hub.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  1.There are hubs under 500 words that are featured.
  
  2. Raters don't even know the word count of hubs.
  
  Having a high word count usually helps substance, but isn't everything. 1200 word hubs are failed for quality every day.
  
  However, it is more likely that a 1200 word hub has more substance than a 500 word hub.
  
  Word count and substance aren't synonymous. They might nod at each other on the street but they don't hold hands.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Melissa you would think that, but I have actually had to fluff up a few of my informational articles to get them pass quality control. I didn't change a single thing in the original content, just added another paragraph of nonsense.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I would attribute that to borderline hub and different raters before I would the paragraph of fluff.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is the problem. I feel that I have to had nonsense to meet the measure of excellence. This happened very recently unfortunately from HP it feels like peer pressure.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Or conversely, you could add something of value...
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You have missed the point.
  
  If the article was written with everything said in 500+ words of value is in the article, and the grammar and spelling is correct and HP still wants more, what do you add?
  
  The only thing left Fluff and nonsense. 200 words of utter nonsense.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously if your hub failed because of substance then it didn't say everything.
  
  Raters don't count words... you seem to be ignoring that fact.
  
  So do you want help or not?
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Not true, I think the word content is measured by automation, therefore before it gets to a human its been rejected. Actually 500 words is probably the borderline, and you better have 3 pictures and some other type of capsule to pretty it up otherwise its going to get rejected. I'm just glad poetry isn't subjected to this scrutiny, its much easier to update my hubs when i dont have to worry about word content.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think that's true either... at least not the 500 word mark statement.
  
  I rate hubs on a regular basis that I would assume to be under 500 words... in addition I've got a 400 and something odd word hub that I know has been through QAP and is featured.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm basing it on the few hubs I had to add content to. I have no idea how HP really does it, but I suspect the content filter they use has a criteria for word count. As this is a computer program it is unable to determine quality of content, which is why the content then goes to a human reader.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I know they have the standard warning of "this hub might be found substandard" because of word count but I was under the impression that all hubs were being manually QAP'd at some point.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Everything is computer driver, even the plagiarize finders. They have computer software for everything. They can find other articles like yours already posted online.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, I think that would be too much content to throw onto human readers. its definitely screened by a computer first.
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  agilitymachposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If 400 word hubs are featured, then obviously it QAP doesn't count words. I think it's that simple. If you want to see how QAP works, go rate some hubs through Mechanical Turk. It will let you know what QAP testers are looking for. I have never had a hub not pass QAP. Even my old hubs are passing fine, thank you. If your hubs aren't passing, then they aren't quality. We all tend to overrate our own work, and we all tend to get our feelings hurt if our work isn't valued like we expect it to be. It's a brave new world, and I'm glad Hubpages is cleaning up its hubs. I'm hoping it pays off in the long run. I've read many very, very poor hubs here....
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Going down my list of hubs, the top ten all have over 1100 words and average around 2,000. All but one has at least 4 stars for time on page, and that one has 3 stars. Over half have 5 stars.
  
  It would seem that people like long winded hubs, at least as long as there is real substance in them.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  All of which I will never read because they are too long winded. And considering Larry Wall's article had 4 stars and had images that images that didn't belong I would say that you have a lot more words in those articles then people will probably read.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well considering that his are featured and you are complaining that yours have been unfeatured...
  
  I assume his words are likely to be read a bit more than yours.
  
  Look I was trying to help and AA was trying to help, but it's obvious you don't want help. You just want to complain.
  
  Good luck with that. It's not going to get your hubs featured.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Melissa, it's a known fact that creative writing doesn't do well on search engines. Informational articles that talk about something useful do better and garner more traffic. I don't consider myself an expert at any subject therefore i am not qualified to write these types of Hubs. I do however tell a good story and express myself well through poetry, so i post my creative writing on HubPages and many other sites. I received almost 10,000 views in one month for the various things I've written, then I grew bored and took a long break. Wilderness is probably an awesome writer, especially with that many views, but it still doesn't mean the majority of people prefer long articles. I've gone through Yahoos writing courses, and they say an article shouldn't be more than 700 words because people don't care for long articles.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think you can really put a generalization on length of articles that people prefer.
  
  If I am looking for the time that the local park opens, I want a 10 word article. If I am looking for how to install wiring, I want 2000 words... with pictures and videos... a couple graphs a few charts... some diagrams... and the number for the nearest ER.
  
  I write my sensory integration articles with the premise that these parents have already heard the old standbys... I give as many more options as I can think of. That makes them long, but it also makes sure that they will pull away something helpful...
  
  I've got some ridiculous read times on some of those hubs. Ridiculous. I've watched people stay on them regularly for 8-10 minutes... which is like 3 years in internet speak.
  
  By your premise, there would never be a non-fiction book sold.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have never read an entire book in one sitting, it usually takes me a few days to get through a long one. The difference is, I invested money into buying it so I want my money's worth. In regards to free info online. just show me the video on wiring and highlight the parts that will keep me from getting electrocuted, if I fall asleep reading the article, I'll never get the job done.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  My husband's like that too.
  
  I can't watch something and learn from it though... I need to read it. So the 2000 word article is probably the best bet for me and the video for you.
  
  There are lots of videos though... and only a few 2000 word articles about wiring.
  
  So which would I pick?
  
  I think HP is trying to corner a market here... lots of sites have 400 word blog posts. I can only think of one with truly in-depth information... and I see it in the top of the rankings all the damn time... usually right above my hub.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have no problem with them asking for longer content, but to disregard quality content that is written that way for the readers benefit is not right. It's a mistake and I say in a few months they will realize that and make more changes.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If the content is helpful and informative, it will pass QAP on substance... I promise. There's a ruberic that pretty much demands that.
  
  Now, with that in mind... if we are talking about boiling an egg...
  
  If all that is written is
  
  "Put it in hot water til it's done"
  
  That's neither helpful or informative, even though it's technically true.
  
  To be helpful, a hub needs to go beyond common knowledge or at least thoroughly explain common knowledge.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is not writing that is junk. Please don't screw around Melissa.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I know it is junk... that's why I used it as an example of junk.
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  HollieTposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I have now lost patience and am going to bed!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry Hollie.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Melissa, you are on a cloud you should just go work for HP because you are so much the authority on everything. Why don't you listen.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You're right.
  
  I should rate hubs for four or five hours a day or something.
  
  Do you think 23,000 or so of them would do it?
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  HollieTposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Cassandra, it is you that is not listening.
  
  Different searchers want different things. The depth of the article is surely weighted by the topic. Some people want to know how to poach an egg, and some want a critical analysis of Durkheim's Theory of Suicide.
  
  See, one size does not fit all.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry but if you tell me how to poach an again in 1200 words you will put me to sleep.
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  HollieTposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly, but if you attempt to analyze Durkheim in 500 words then you'll be laughed at. See how that works?
  
  Hubs only have to meet the 500 word requirement.
  
  As I said, different searchers want different things. There is some correlation, surely, with depth and topic.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  To be featured they have to meet the 700 word requirement which means fluff.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  THERE IS NO 700 WORD REQUIREMENT
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  Jean Bakulaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Some topics can not be explained properly in 500 or even 1,000 words. I understand that some people have short attention spans, but if you write about something they want to learn, they will read it. It won't work for any topic, but if you need the words, and you have the audience that is interested in them, the hubs will be fine. People who are readers are more likely to read longer hubs, but normally writers read a lot anyway. I don't leave the house without my Kindle, and I read about 2 or 3 books a week. I'm happy to read a long hub if it's interesting. That's the difference, is it interesting? Or is it fluff, pictures and videos about nothing?
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If there is fluffy in a 500 word article no one will want to read it so you can scratch that idea. Professional newspaper journalists write 500+ daily on a regular basis.
  
  Magazine journalists may write longer articles depending on the type of articles they carry in their magazines.
  
  Every article should be short, concise and to the point.
  
  It just depends on what the article is about that depends on the article or story length.
  
  Do you people like to people insulting or do you not know anything about writers?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  We're all writers here. Some are just better at internet writing than others. No one is insulting anyone.
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  Jean Bakulaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Cassandra,
  Is this comment addressed to me? I agree journalists must convey information quickly and concisely. But on HP we are not in such a situation. I have seen people write about how to make chili/cheese dip with Velveeta cheesefood and a can of Hormel chili, and drag it out as long as possible. That's not writing, that's crap. I don't believe a short hub is a bad hub, as everyone is trying to tell you. But on HP, many are writing DIY or trying to teach others how to do something, and it can get long sometimes. As long as that is necessary to explain the subject clearly, I don't find that longer hubs do worse, and have been successful with them here, on the two other sites where I write, and on my blog. When I began online writing, I was warned off of long hubs, but many became my most visited. Just do your best and don't worry about word count. You come to a natural point where you just feel like it's done.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but Hubpages made me add 200 words to an article on purpose.
  
  I didn't change any of the the other paragraphs. I added one paragraph and then it promoted.
  
  There was nothing wrong with the writing.
  
  I made an image I didn't need out of words I was using, when I really wanted the reader to use their imagination.
  
  Instead Hubpages wanted detail or it wouldn't promote the article for quality.
  
  It was obvious after I had to blatenly add the paragraph over quality.to make it 700+ words.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You may have had a different rater or the extra 200 words may have added substance.
  
  If you were wanting to have the reader use their imagination, it likely should have been in creative writing. If it wasn't, then yes detail is one of those criteria looked for when rating for substance.
  
  Seriously, really, I promise you that raters don't count words. I have rated thousands of hubs and have never done a word count... not once.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I also had 3 images.
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  Barbara Kayposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The answer is simple. If you want to write something short, you find a writing site like Bubblews to write at. When you decide to write about something that is in depth, you write at Hubpages.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are talking to someone who has been writing all her life please don't patronize. This is why we have cookbooks, encyclopedias, novel, blogs, etc across the globe, internet, etc.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Most of us have been writing for "all of our lives" And you are one to talk about patronizing.
  
  The internet isn't like writing for other places.
  
  You might want to listen to WL... she's pretty good at what she does.
  
  But I forgot, you don't really want help. You just want to complain.
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  WryLiltposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think she was trying to patronise you.
  
  The point is that there are millions of types of writing... no one can cover them all.
  
  Journalism, literary, textbook, analytical, essay, recipe, training, guides, how-to, fiction, non-fiction, speculative, flash fiction, short story.
  
  Then there are millions of different audiences:
  
  Older, younger, short interest, long interest, researchers, browsers, banner-blind, problematic (you're more likely to read every word of everything if you have a big problem doctors can't fix for instance).
  
  I think the point is that no two writing areas will garner the same audience and no two audience types will want exactly the same length/style/layout/in depth information.
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  HollieTposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I've been writing all my life too, in various forms. If you feel that someone who points out that every searcher seeks something different, and every writer offers something different, as "patronizing" than you are unlikely to find any answers here.
  
  The point is, if you want to write short, concise hubs you only have to write 500 words. However, 500 words is not adequate for some topics and some searchers. That's just the way it is.
  
  Yes we have cookbooks and encyclopedias, but the fact is that many want to find this same information on the internet- not from books. Is this not the digital age?
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Many of the topics I write about the information can be covered in 500+ words. My topics just happen to be whatever I become interested in at the moment or new thing I learn about that I believe is informative enough to share.
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  HollieTposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Fine, it's all good then, because there is ONLY a 500 word requirement. So, I don't understand why you are upset by this.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know they are long winded? If you haven't read them?
  
  Also if you look at wilderness's profile he's had a million views (I believe he celebrated achieving that recently), and you have 1000.
  
  Now I know the comparison is not completely fair, he's been here for twice as long as you have, and has many more hubs. Still.......perhaps he's worth listening to, rather than dismissing out of hand.
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  HollieTposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The point is that hubs will be unfeatured for various reasons. Sometimes it's a quality issue and sometimes because they cannot garner traffic. Personally, I would be really p***** off if HP didn't adapt in this time of change. Thankfully they are. I've had a couple of subs here, and on one, have deleted all but one hub. A couple were idled a few months ago, the remainder were featured but they were crap, so I deleted them. They probably would have remained featured because they garnered traffic, but I was embarrassed about them.
  
  If you are that precious about your work and worried that it might be idled, then you should take it elsewhere. Because, at the end of the day, I would not want other hubbers, or this site to suffer because my hubs are below par. So why should the remainder of our subs suffer, because some people are completely unrealistic when it comes to their own work? You don't want to learn from someone who has a million views, that's your problem!
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Wilderness I have never read one of your hubs and if they are that long I never will, I know there are many more people like me. You could be the best writer in the world, but unless you grab my attention within 5 seconds of seeing the article. I'll skip over it.
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  wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Understood, and unless I'm looking for some real in depth information I often won't either.
  
  But someone is! And more; almost all that list of hubs shows 5 stars for backlinks. Backlinks that I didn't put out there - readers that liked the stuff did.
  
  So when you say "most" readers won't read longer hubs I have to disagree. It's one thing to browse hubs looking for something interesting, and it's quite another to provide in depth information to a searcher looking for such. That's my target audience, not the browser from HP.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Wilderness, I will try my best to read at least one of your Hubs, and I will let you know how far I get on it, but I'm thinking in the back of my mind that if you knocked about 400 words off of the longer ones you'd probably get even more traffic. If I'm wrong I will admit it.
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  WryLiltposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I'd like to interject:
  
  LONG HUBS CAN DO VERY WELL.
  
  If they have the following:
  -They grab the reader with a great title that promises them something (or a teaser).
  -They have a great hook sentence or intro paragraph
  -They don't lose the reader.
  -They are broken up into sizeable chunks.
  
  My example would be my hub on newbie writer mistakes (although it's nt my only one). It's something like 2,200 words long but most people read it because I give highly relevant information broken up into exact sub sections so people won't simply get all their good answers immediately and then be bored to tears reading on to see the same things repeated, or dug into deeper.
  
  If it's a topic where you provide GOOD information and it's information they NEED to know, long hubs ARE good.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  How to articles and recipes.
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  WryLiltposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Correct. Although I'm sure there are ways to do every other type of hub in a way to grab and keep reader attention, it's an area I have no interest in experimenting with.
  
  However I very much doubt a good online marketer would have an issue keeping people on page if they knew what they were doing, for any topic.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  The next key is audience. Each item has a difference audience.
  
  So if you write about politics, you want people interested in politics.
  
  If you write about fashion, you want people interested in fashion.
  
  You write about cooking, you want people interested in cooking.
  
  Three different audiences.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This is very useful information. I've never really thought about it this way. Obviously there has been some mistake in my account, and I'm having people interested in fashion coming to my frog hubs.
  
  So, what do I do. How do I get the right people to come to my hubs?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You are wearing a frog as a hat... there was bound to be some crossover.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  ROFL, I never thought of that! And people say the forums are a waste of time!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Glad to be of help.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  It depends how you use them.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I sent you an email so we can talk about it. I looked at your Google plus account and I think I can give you a whole bunch of tips and tricks so help you grow and become a better marketer of you outside of hubpages.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, but I'm not particularly into Google+ (as you can tell). I've basically opened that account so I can have Google authorship. Other than that I'm not interested.
  
  But thank you.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Stating the obvious perhaps, but grabbing the reader's attention in the first 5 seconds, and having a long Hub, are not incompatible.
  
  Besides, having a long Hub is not just for the purposes of interesting the reader. In fact, I couldn't care less whether readers read all the way to the end of my Hubs, or not. The important point is that a longer article allows me to range over my subject a bit more, and use a greater variety of keywords around the topic, plus related images and videos, all of which is likely to result in a better ranking on Google. That's why HubPages wants longer Hubs.
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sleepylogposted 11 years ago
It's a bit demoralizing to think that some of my featured hubs could become unfeatured because of an 'Engagment' issue when I see so many hubs that are either copied or written in very poor English that remain featured even after I have flagged them.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sleepydog, as long as you're Hubs have the proper word content, getting featured again is just a matter of rewording one sentence, or adding a few pictures. It makes sense to me, because I would never have revisited my Hubs if they hadn't forced me to.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes I feel like I am talking but there is no one home.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  These forums are hard to follow, so if I've missed something you said it was not to disregard you.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Funny, I feel the same way too.
  
  You believe something that is erroneous yet insist on going forward with it even when one of the people who actually does the ratings tells you that you are in error.
  
  You are essentially telling me that I do something that I don't do and not listening when I tell you what really happens.
  
  I'm honest to God trying to help by explaining why you don't need to add fluff to get to a word count that isn't required anyway. Yet you accuse me of "knowing everything" which in this case is ironic, because I do know what I am talking about... because I do it literally every day.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  If I might interject something. Melissa and Cassandra, both of you have made your points, and no one is giving in. Rather than the both of you get into an argument over it, just agree to disagree. I see this turning ugly with both of you getting into trouble with HP, and there's no need for it.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I'm done.
  
  I guess I was a bit too much in the mood to argue. I really did start out trying to help though.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Helping is okay.
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  PHILLYDREAMERposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Now if you all will excuse me, I have a 2000 word article to read by Wilderness. LOL
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Bill Yovinoposted 11 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbhnRuJBHLs
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Bill Yovinoposted 11 years ago
Deceased equine flagellation syndrome.
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brakel2posted 11 years ago
Do your high scoring hubs drop with poor engagement?
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  I do not think they do but they could have changed the rules. Hubpages has already changed the rules and it is not for the betterment of the writers of themselves. I wonder if they bother to read any of the hubs concerning of their hubs started from by their writers. Besides their are rumors in play that they just want to set themselves up to be bought out by some bigger player like Associated Content. I read many comments from unhappy writers and they were paid.
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  WryLiltposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Gee all these complaints are sounding more and more like 2011. Oh but wait, Hubpages fixed the site and didn't sell out.
  
  Someone's always going to start rumours.
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  Marisa Wrightposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Part of a Hub's score is determined by the amount of traffic it gets - so yes, if it doesn't get traffic, its score will drop.
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Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years ago

This is what will appear if they suddenly decide not to promote your article any longer.
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  aa liteposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Well the solution seems very simple.....write hubs that pass the QAP. It really is not that hard.
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  Jean Bakulaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Cassandra,
  I've also added 2 pictures and about one sentence to something that was about to be unfeatured, or whatever they are calling it now. That was all it took to get it featured again. The so called rules don't make much sense anyway, so don't sweat it. Writing about current events is only good for a week or so, then everyone loses interest.
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  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That is why I don't write about current events.
  
  That is why I said their junk doesn't make much sense because you can't go and prmote the article again who are you going to get to read it. Not to a large extend/ Anyone who read the article more than likely won't be interested and will be less interested when they see you added one sentence and a couple of pictures.
  
  Wasted time and money.
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  Jean Bakulaposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  That's sort of true. But I notice with informational hubs, people do come back if what they are learning from your hub is hard enough that they must go back more than once. I mean, they could print it out if there are a lot of steps. But if it's just a detail they can't recall, they may go back. It really is frustrating. I've just changed my hubs so many times I'm numb to it now. Maybe write on another site for a bit, to give yourself a break. See if you like it better there, or if by being on another site, HP looks more attractive. It's important to build up bodies of work on other sites, but it doesn't have to be huge, just start by writing enough to get accepted.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah I've seen that box. I don't think it's very clear in it's message.
  
  I personally think it should read:
  
  "You hub sucks so bad we don't want it associated with our site. Make it NOT suck and we'll give it another go round. And don't try improving it just a bit so it'll pass, cause there's a reason we're saying shoot for 8's. If you haven't figured that reason out yet, you aren't too quick on the uptake."
  reply report
  61
  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  This is where it gets messy depending on how much you wrote.
  
  So if you wrote 500+ words and add a paragraph and the promote who are you going to get to reread your article?
  
  If you rewrite the article and it all has the same information and it all has the same information and you already used social media to pass the message on who is going to read it?
  
  Do they know the words - WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY
  
  Their time and or time. Plus they lose work they at one had promoted. Less stuff to help them and their writers.
  reply report
  59
  MelissaBarrettposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  You do realize promote just means "allow search engines to see".... right?
  
  I mean you know Paul isn't making copies and sticking them under the wipers of cars... right?
  reply report
  61
  Cassandra Godutiposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  No, I mean social media promote. Anyone who read your article more than likely won't be interested in the little changes or the big changes if it is the same content.
  reply report

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