Writing sales hubs is SOOOOO boring....

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   ryankettposted 12 years ago

   Don't you agree? All of the best topics don't have anything to sell. I am on a personal mission to write 90 sales hubs by the end of September, in order to address a reliance on AdSense and finally crack Amazon.
   
   It will work, I don't have a doubt about that, but it can get so boring writing the same old crap. I can't wait to get back to my normal impartial and entirely honest self, telling it how it is.
   
   After September, no sales hubs for months! I feel like writing "just go and read the f'in Amazon reviews like everybody else you muppet" but that doesn't sell things unfortunately
   
   What I will enjoy, no doubt, is seeing things being purchased in Amazon. It will be worth it. But they make me feel dirty.... sales, ewwww... the filthy dirty word... the smug, smarmy, cheating section in any organisation.
   
   But then money is dirty, I want the money. Sorry, rant over, back to chatting crap about stuff I don't know all that much about...

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      saddlerider1posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I hear ya loud and clear. i vowed not to put a sales ad in my hubs, sure we all need money, but I make that elsewhere not in here, takes to long to make a few dollars anyways:0)  I prefer to write about every day life, ups and downs, adventures, poetry, suspense, life in general.
      
      I agree with you totally, selling was a career I had for a number of years and I hated it in the end. It all comes down to the CLOSE for the sale to count one's commissions and rub our greedy little hands together and move on to the next sale. ewwwwwwwwwww  is so right.  I am glad in many ways for leaving the selling game.

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      Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I feel that writing sales Hubs is a challenge, not at all boring, but then, I haven't written as many as you and I also don't have an aggressive goal to write more on a timeline.
      
      The challenge for me in writing sales Hubs is to make a few bucks, and it worked for the three or so sales Hubs I wrote, so I'm looking forward to doing more. Maybe I'll get bored by it all soon enough.
      
      However, every sales Hub I write I have a certain passion for. Well, pink garden tools are a little hard to get passionate about, unless you consider that this is a trend that appeals to certain people who have ideas different from mine; then I want to get into their minds about what "pink" means. So that's a challenge that motivates me.
      
      So, every sales Hub I write or think of writing is a challenge one way or another (not to mention researching the GD keywords to see if it's worthwhile on that practical level, and that's another challenge).
      
      No, it's not boring to me at all. I'm not at the level of expertise you are. I'm still experimenting.

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      Nelle Hoxieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If that's your attitude, you are definitely in the wrong business. I find sales hubs a lot of fun to write, and writing effective and professional sales copy is challenging and intellectually rewarding.
      
      Even writing for adsense is fun now that I've figured out the game. In fact I have to admit figuring out that game was fun.
      
      I never consider what I write crap nor do I consider what I do ... People who write effective sales copy are some of the most sought after writers in the world - and the best paid. I have nothing to apologize for. I think I'm going to stop reading and answering your forum posts, for a while.

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         ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Nelle, I am sorry if I have offended you. But again, perhaps a slight over reaction?
         
         I could quite easily take offence to "Even writing for adsense is fun now" since that has really been my fortay, but I am not that fickle.
         
         I have 100% fully enjoyed using market samurai to identify gaps in the market, and seeking to penetrate those gaps. I have written seven hubs about laptop coolers in two days, I am more than entitled to feel a little tired of the subject afterwards.
         
         There really is no need to tell me that you are going to stop reading or replying to my forum posts, just go ahead and do it, that is what most people would do Nelle.
         
         I do fully enjoy this game overall. But try working 45 hours a week in an office and then forcing yourself to keep up the momentum online so that you can enable yourself to reach the priviledged position of being able to do this full time.
         
         I have published 23 hubpages and 40 blog posts in August. I spend at least 1 hour per hubpage and 30 minutes per blog post (on a new blog which nobody has yet seen).
         
         In the first two weeks of this month I have worked 133 hours. I don't need my attitude questioned or to be told that I am in the wrong business.
         
         On Friday I handed my notice in at work, I finish employment on 1st November. Around the same time that I will own my flat outright, following a one year legal battle over my inheritance. I will be doing this full time. It is going to be very touch and go with regards to whether my earning sustain me by that point, they probably won't. But I am a risk taker.
         
         For now, with the amount of stuff I have going on in my life, I have as much right as anybody to vent frustration. I don't need to be judged by anybody no matter who.
         
         407 hubs in 13 months. Plus another 100 hubs that you do not know about. Six new blogs on .com domains in the making. More than 150 hubpages referrals. All whilst holding down a full time job, I don't need to be patronised.

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            David 470posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well said, You seem very determined, I try and stay as determined as possible you give me a lot of motivation ryankett. I liked your hub about your earnings over a year and what you did.
            
            I think you will be able to crack amazon....

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         Mrvoodooposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Awwwww, did somebody say something bad about sales copy again? 
         
         You should probably throw a tantrum over it, oh wait, you did.

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      lorlie6posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Ryan, I am so glad to see this thread.  I have been on HP over a year now and have yet to write a sales hub.  That would explain the whopping $13.68 I've made.  I've got some ideas, though the idea of writing them does not make me giggle with glee. 
      It's a strange jump from memoir pieces to sales pitches.

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   Beth100posted 12 years ago

   Sell me on writing sales hubs! 
   
   *back to original programming now....*

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      ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Beth100, tell me, is that REALLY you in the picture? If so, I am not sure that too many people could afford you

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         Beth100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

           I didn't say I was for sale!!! 

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            ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            So..... it IS you?
            
            I like the...errrm.... ummm... contrast between hot and cold in your photograph Beth

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               Beth100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I'm glad you do. 
               
               So, sell me on writing sales hubs.  I haven't ventured out on this angle yet.  I've read almost everything you've written, but now that I have your attention, sell me on it.

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                  Mutiny92posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I recommend sending Ryan more pictures of girls in bikinis on icebergs...my guess is that he will be willing to sell just about ANYTHING in return.

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                     Beth100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I'm one of a kind. 

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                     ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Send me a full sized pic of Beth100 in a bikini and I WILL write about anything!

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                  ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Beth100, I can't sell the notion of writing sales hubs until I truly crack the art myself.
                  
                  Nelle Hoxie and Mark Knowles would soon sell the idea to you though I am sure!
                  
                  In a nutshell though if you are going to write a hubpage with the title 'Best Cheap Pink Umbrella' then it is likely to attract people that are looking to buy a cheap pink umbrella.
                  
                  If on the other hand you write a poem about rain, and then offer a pink umbrella at the bottom of it, the chances of a sale are almost zero.
                  
                  And thats about all I can say really!

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                     ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Basically I would like my Amazon earnings (currently less than $100 in a month) to match my AdSense earnings (currently around $750 in a month), but the only way to achieve that is to hit the jackpot with a few sales pages. I am writing 90 sales pages in the hope that a few of them do hit the jackpot. I just don't like having a reliance on one income stream on Hubpages. I have done very very well with a particular sales page, about 15-20 items a month, now I am seeking to replicate that with a few more.
                     
                     I probably haven't sold it to you, hehe.

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                        Beth100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        mmmmmm....you're getting warm though.  I've taken the past 6 months off from really writing.  Trying to figure out what I really want to write about.  I've been toying with the idea of sales hubs and actually started with some tourism types.  They've had a lot of hits, but no sales.   
                        
                        Where and how do you come up with your ideas?  I've been trying to think nationally and then locally, but it just isn't happening.  Any ideas of doing better?  (other than selling myself) 

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   Shopping-Onlineposted 12 years ago

   The problem with Sales Hubs is that it needs some amount of research. But it would be easier if you have some experience using the products. My aim is also to make a minimum of $100 from Amazon every month and not solely depend on adsense for money. I aim to finish 100 Sales Hubs by September end to accomplish this Goal.

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      ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I think that the most important thing for sales hubs is getting the keywords right first and foremost, getting the traffic is by far the biggest challenge!
      
      If I get the traffic, I will subsequently worry a bit more about whether the page is really optimised for the sale. I probably learn more about a product by reading the reviews of others than I do actually using the product myself to be honest, more often than not a gadget won't get fully utilised by me!

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         livewithrichardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Actually Ryan, it's been my experience that when writing sales/product hubs for either Amazon or EPN that the keywords are less important than the actual product name and category.  For example, if you were to write a hub about Floor Polish you would use "floor polish" as a broad keyword and also a brand name such as "Acme Floor Polish 3000."  Maybe throw in another 4 or 5 tags but only target the broad term and the brand term.
         
         I use a personal anecdote about the product. Give the negatives as well as the positives since no product is without flaws and if you try to promote a product as the absolute best thing on the market then the bullshit detectors will go off and you will be without a sale. 
         
         Only give your personal endorsement on products you have first hand experience with even if that means you sat through a sales presentation at a department store.  And most important, Ask for the sale.
         
         Following this guideline, I consistently get 5 to 10 Amazon sales a day and I don't even keep up with the Ebay clicks I get.

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            ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well I meant the keywords for the title and URL rather than for manipulating AdSense ads or anything. I am currently targeting topics which I believe I can win search engine traffic for, and paying total disregard to cpc. That is the first time ever that I have done so (disregarded cpc).
            
            I am, for the first time, drawing a clear line between my AdSense hubs and my Amazon hubs. But, it doesn't matter what I write about or how well it is written if I haven't got a keyword right somewhere Richard?

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               livewithrichardposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Hey bud, sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner but in response I should clarify that on most of my product hubs the only keyword I'm interested in is the broad term and only then with Google's Traffic Estimator.  For the most part, I'm targeting a specific brand of the product and the best part is that the company that produces the product has already done all the REAL marketing. 
               
               Look for products that are heavily promoted on TV and also through the junk mail you receive. 
               
               Honestly, the only reason to write more than one hub on a single product is if you are promoting different brands of the product. To write on the same brand here on HP multiple times will only provide competition to yourself.
               
               Publishing them on other sites is good if your resource box backlink is pointing back to your hub.
               
               Yes, writing sales copy is very boring. I would much rather be spending the time working on my screenplays but I'll continue doing it until the screenplays start selling...

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   lrohnerposted 12 years ago

   Ha! So I'm trying to crack AdSense and you're trying to crack Amazon. Why don't you just write my AdSense hubs and I'll write your Amazon hubs?

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   thisisoliposted 12 years ago

   If you write my Hubs Ryan I will send you 50 bikini girl pictures per article.

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   Bill Manningposted 12 years ago

   Yeah sales articles are boring and takes way more time IMO than a fun article. It takes me around 2 hours to get a 500 word sales article written.
   
   I look up the key words, than the secondary key words and put those in there a bunch of times. I try to give good info about the item and all that.
   
   It's just plain work, but it does pay off long term.

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   Merlin Fraserposted 12 years ago

   I know selling and making loadsamoney for HubPages is more or less what this place is all about but Yeah you're right it is pretty boring if like me you're not that into playing the game.
   
   To me it's a bit like an online 'Tupperware party but made up of guests all pushing their own wares without being overly interested in what everybody else is pushing.
   
   There are a lot of good Hubbers on here not pushing anything, they enjoy reading and writing and a fun crowd. 
   
   Me I'm an author so I'm only pushing my own books but hopefully in a way makes you interested enough in what they're about.

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   thisisoliposted 12 years ago

   It will be worth it when you start earning enough to live off of. My adsense earnings have tanked recently, with one month reaching less than £200 total.  Either my keywords are ina  low spot right now or I am going to have some real problems. 
   
   It is my own fault I guess, I have been working much harder on sales hubs than adsense Hubs, but I really need to pull myself out of this slump.

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   Beth100posted 12 years ago

   I don't know what I'm doing wrong exactly.  I do the SEO thing, and follow all the advice.  I'm still not earning anything.       I'm starting to realize that maybe I'm targetting the wrong markets.

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      thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That's one of the hardest things to do, cracking a market takes a lot of time, especially if you target competitive markets.

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         Beth100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I'm glad I haven't quit my day job...or my night one (oh, but I digress    )  Maybe if I stop hanging in the forums so much, I might actually do some good pieces. 
         
         I've started a list of markets for our area and think that it might fly.  Just need more time to research and write.  Hey, Ryan, if I send you a full poster of me, will you write a few hubs for me, say around 200????    Payment's after I see some good results.  Maybe you Oli? 

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    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    Just took a quick look at your Hubs list, my advice to you would be to interlink them, and create high level hubs which 'intereconnect' your smaller hubs in to one big network.
    
    If you want to get to the top of Google you definitely need to put some focus in there, even if it means wirting about teh exact same subject ten times and linking it all together!

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       David 470posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yeah in my experience interlinking my hubs dramtically increased traffic by about 25-50%, but of course it depends on how many you have in a niche and total...

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       Beth100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Thanks Oli.  I have started to do that, but I think that I'm linking the wrong way.  I've turned off Kontera (too messy looking) and have started hyperlinking as well as using the link capsule.  My stats tell me that most views are not through the linking but from search engines.  I'll keep working on interlinking to create a nice big network of hubs.  Thanks again Oli. 

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          thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          yep, search engine links are what you want, and links between hubs can help increase your psoition in search engine rankings

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    Sufidreamerposted 12 years ago

    Here's the difference, Nelle
    
    I write a lot of sales copy, but I did not take personal offence at Ryan's post, nor did I get the impression that he was expecting anybody to apologise.
    
    Most of it rings true - good sales copy is hard to write, but I must admit that I find writing sales copy dull, TBH. I also think that writing sales copy about products you have never used is 'dirty,' so I am guilty as charged.
    
    You seem to have taken a light-hearted rant far too personally, Nelle - I have no idea why you felt the need to respond with such a venomous final sentence.
    
    EDIT: We posted at the same time, Ryan!

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Sufidreamer, its all good. I like Nelle a lot, I think that she actually likes me too, it hurts me to see her confront me. I think that I may have upset her a while back, probably justified, but I do wish that she would drop the grudge. I don't hold grudges personally, the only exception being the hubber who sent me emails saying that he was going to "skullf*ck me". Life is too short
       
       ps. Daryl Russell - very good signing for you matey!

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          David 470posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          LOL

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    Mighty Momposted 12 years ago

    It's helpful for those of us just making the content switch from more "ego-driven" hubs to sales hubs. Thanks to everyone of you who I know are successful with your sales-oriented hubs!
    
    Ryan -- congratulations on taking a big leap and leaving your day job. I hope you will chronicle the experience as you learn to use your wings!
    
    That's all I'll say on this topic except once again thanks to our sales hub experts for sharing! MM

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    lakeerieartistsposted 12 years ago

    Ryan, I have to agree with Nelle here.  Not only that but my writing earnings are a vital part of my business which is also in sales.  I happen to find your attitude somewhat insulting as I am a sales person year round in a very respectable gallery business.  Even if I am not selling a product, I am selling the idea of my business.  Calling it the same old crap is pretty thoughtless.

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       Sufidreamerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Why is that thoughtless?
       
       The majority of my work is writing sales copy and a large part of it is indeed writing the same old crap. That's part of the territory.
       
       The guy was having a vent after writing countless Hubs about the same topic - we have all had days like that.
       
       Not sure why you are all so quick to take umbrage at the initial post.
       
       @Ryan: Hopefully Russell will be fit soon, or it could be a looooong, dark season

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          ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          What formation do you play Sufi?
          
          I have seen him play 7 seasons for Norwich (at the start of his career, and then in his second spell).
          
          By far his best season was last season, in a new role as a holding midfielder. He did a great job of sitting in front of the back four, a great tackler with a great work rate. He started off as a 16 year old striker, then a right winger, then an attacking centre midfielder.
          
          With an all-rounder like that, he could really dictate the tempo of your game from a deeper position. He is no frills really, but with 'enough' ability if you get me. Will always give 100%, very passionate, a winner basically. Gets a lot of cards, as could be expected.
          
          If it is motivation and a bit of industry that you think you are lacking, then he will give you that. Genuinely think that you have made a very good signing there, defo a champs quality centre mid. The game is never lost put it that way. He has the ability to score a few goals once he gets into it too.
          
          I suppose he reminds me of Alan Smith in his new role really, Alan Smith with more goals.

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             Sufidreamerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             I haven't managed to find live feeds for the first two matches, so I am going on hearsay from my family, but that sounds like exactly what we need.
             
             Ferguson likes to play with two wingers in a 442, but we don't have the steel in midfield to do that. Hopefully, he will plug the gaps when he is match fit - we have a young team, so a wily old head is always useful, especially away from home.
             
             With him and central defender Wayne Brown to come in to the side, things may improve a little and the defeats may turn into valuable away points.
             
             I have a good feeling about Norwich - a good manager, great fans and momentum. I think you are in with a chance of the play-offs

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                ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                In the first game we looked like we missed Darel Russell to be honest... I know that Lambert is easily clever enough to get over that, but that says a lot about him as a player with the quality that we have brought in this summer (e.g. Andrew Surman).
                
                I am predicting 8th or 9th for Norwich this year, with Stephen Fry to fund the missing links in the summer

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                   Sufidreamerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   That would be a pretty good season. Mind you, this division is always so tight that 8th or 9th can be just a couple of points away from the play-offs. It can also be just a few bad results away from being sucked into the relegation battle.
                   
                   Who needs the Premier League? - The Championship is far better

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                      jenblacksheepposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      I need the Premier League, although I really wish I didn't! My team are a constant disappointment and my hometown team who I also support are about to fall out the bottom of the entire football league.
                      
                      I also got suckered into doing Fantasy Football this year which is the most obsessive thing ever, especially for a competitive person

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                         ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         And who is that Jen?

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                            jenblacksheepposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                            I support Arsenal (I'm not sure how that came about) and my hometown team is Southend. I find I can support them both because it's unlikely that they would ever be in a league together.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       That is fine, sorry if I insulted you. Since I also work in a sales orientated business, I am just as entitled to slag off sales as I am entitled to slag off the British, slag off men, slag off people named Ryan.

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    waynetposted 12 years ago

    Yeah sales hubs are tedious to write, I agree!
    
    And you know what women are like Ryan, one minute fine and the next minute they want to rip off yer head and shite down your neck....lol!
    
    Speaking from my experience last night were my mrs hurled a coffee cup at me for leaving my socks on the floor!!! I ask you, what's the world coming to?
    
    I happen to think, that yeah sales hubs are needed by the way and I saw no attitude in your post, just a vent for writing them like anyone must have!

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    ryankettposted 12 years ago

    So the conclusions to this thread are:
    
    a) Beth100 is very hot.
    b) Males find sales hubs boring after a while.
    c) Females get offended when males get bored of sales hubs.
    
    I'm sure that there is a PHD in there somewhere? I just need to find the link between hot Canadians in bikinis and sales hubs!

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       skyfireposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       

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       Beth100posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Ha ha ha Ryan!  I've started on my winter bikini shoot.... maybe I can sell tickets to the Columbia Ice Fields?  Think that would fly as a sales hub??? 

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    adrienne2posted 12 years ago

    Gosh, I never even thought of it as a sales hub. I tend to think of it as what I would recommend to someone, because I have used the product personally, or know of someone who did. I always put amazon products in my hubs, but I find it nice to write about a subject I like.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       And it is great when you can review products that you own, but I doubt I have 90 products in my home right now which I could review. As it happens, many of the products I recommend ARE owned or have been tested by me. But yes, sometimes I rely on Amazon reviews or similar. When a product has 300 Amazon reviews, and 220 of them are 5 out of 5, I can safely assume that the product can be recommended.

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    Sally's Troveposted 12 years ago

    Everybody has different opinions.
    
    To refer to another's profession as boring, even when the reference is not directed to a specific person, is a challenge that won't go unanswered.
    
    I've been in the writing profession for most of my career, and I cringe when some corporate schlep asks me to make a message "pretty". I tell him or her that I'm not in the cosmetics industry.
    
    Writing sales Hubs may be boring for some, but it is a professional challenge for others. Not to mention, as others have said here, that writing advertising copy is a skill that gets big bucks, deservedly so.
    
    Nobody deserves to be patronized for any reason. That's a behavior akin to bullying.
    
    And so is deflecting this thread into the details of a sports match. I think that's called hijacking.
    
    Why not just learn from each other and move on?

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Sally's Trove, I would like to comment:
       
       a) From 1st Novemeber onwards this WILL be my profession.
       
       b) I have spent at least 80 hours in the past two weeks writing sales copy and on Market Samurai. I also have a full time job.
       
       c) Who has been patronized? And by whom?
       
       d) It is not possible to hijack ones own thread. I started the thread, and I started the conversation about football.
       
       e) I have learnt, and continue to learn, plenty from Nelle Hoxie.
       
       I hope that clarifies a little.

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          Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I admire your work very much, always have and always will. You share expertise willingly and with style, and you know what you are talking about.
          
          I didn't bring up the "patronize" word, somebody else did, but I felt I had to address the concept.
          
          As for hijacking a thread, just because you started it doesn't mean that you get to deflect it. When you started it (and I don't care that it's in the Hangout) you set a certain expectation for participants. And football wasn't any part of meeting that expectation, unless it served as a metaphor for clarifying the stated topic, which it didn't.
          
          Hope that clears up your understanding of what I'm saying.

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             ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Yes thank you for your response.
             
             I have long shared a mutual interest in football, or 'soccer', with Sufidreamer and on the odd occassion that I bump into him on here there is often something worth mentioning to him. We are both busy people, so I like to slip in the odd soccer reference.
             
             His favourite team, Preston, are from his home area of Lancashire. My favourite team, Norwich, are from my home area of Norfolk. We happen to play in the same league.
             
             His team have signed up one of our best players, and the season started just a week ago. So I have been waiting some time to find the opportunity to mention that player to him.
             
             There is nothing but innocence involved in the brief mention of a soccer player, in a thread which was never started with the intention of confrontation and was largely enjoyable before somebody took offence to my tone.
             
             I used to be able to express myself freely on this forum, but now I find that I too often cause offence to a select handful of individuals. It is sad, but I can handle it. Ultimately, it will just make me stay off of the forum. Just like Nelle continuosly states she will stay off of my forum threads. She won't need to anymore, I don't like playing the witch.
             
             That is not reference to you of course, but it is a sad day when I cannot have a little chat about something I enjoy with somebody who I consider to be an online friend. Especially in the Hubbers Hangout - the ONLY place that I post regularly. Particularly when so many are telling me to write about what I enjoy.
             
             If I can't even chat about what I enjoy, then how can I be expected to write about it?

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                Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                True, you never started this thread with confrontation in mind, but your words struck a cord that you didn't anticipate. And so you got some flack in return.
                
                That's not bad; it's good. People are reading your words and wanting to respond. Isn't that what a forum exchange is about?
                
                I think you can express yourself freely, just as Nell or Aya or I can. I don't think any of us has been particularly confrontational. Questioning, for sure. Stating our own thoughts, for sure also. This is not an attack against you.
                
                If anything, it's people chiming in because there's something they have strong thoughts, opinions, or feelings about, something that you just happened to be the messenger of. And what's wrong with that?
                
                Hey, the writing we do for money can be boring as hell. But we do it because we have to put bread on the table. At the same time, we must take pride in what we do, because we do a good job, and we must also never denigrate others' attempts to do the same. Add to that, that if you have a particular perspective, any boring task can become interesting because it leads to other unexpected things.
                
                Well, I got a bit off-topic here.
                
                Let me say that I find nothing witchy about you or anything you say or said...perhaps some insensitivity to the pride others take in some aspects of their lives and work? But so what? I can be insensitive, too.
                
                I know if you and I met in person, we'd shake hands and I'd learn a lot from you about marketing on the net and you'd learn a lot from me about writing and communication across cultural and gender platforms.
                
                Peace.

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             Sufidreamerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Sorry, Sally's Trove, but I still disagree. The Hubber's hangout is where we are 'sanctioned' to go off topic.
             
             The official description of the Hubber's hangout:
             
             "Go off-topic and discuss whatever you like"
             
             Therefore, I don't see why the football conversation offends you so much. In one of the other forums, you would have a point. Here, I respectfully disagree.

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       Sufidreamerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       To be fair, Sally's Trove, the thread is in the Hubber's Hangout.
       
       "Go off-topic and discuss whatever you like."
       
       Therefore, I wouldn't call having a sports conversation with Ryan hijacking a thread

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    SpiritLeoposted 12 years ago

    Have to concentrate on some sale writing hubs as well... Good idea!

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    Aya Katzposted 12 years ago

    I tend to be more on Nelle's side on this issue, and I agree with LakeEerieArtists and Sally's Trove. While I am not good at sales myself, and my sales hubs are pretty amateurish, I recognize that in order to be successful at sales, the way Nelle is, you have to love what you do!
    
    I think what bothers me about Ryan and Sufi's take on all this is the idea that you could, just by mere painful, bullish effort have success in any field. If you don't love it, if you don't find it intellectually and artistically challenging to write about one thing, then why not find another one that you do like? You can do keyword research on anything, and there are enough different products in the world, that if one doesn't appeal to you, you could easily find another that does! Enjoying has got to be part of the deal, or ultimately it won't work.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I can't see any reason why my approach to work, or Sufidreamers approach, should 'bother' you at all. What you do, or do not do, would be of no concern to me. Whilst I will judge my own success in sales on profits, as is the norm.

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          Aya Katzposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Hey, you were sharing your feelings about what you do, so I shared my feelings about what you shared. It's what we do on Forums, right?

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       ps. Writing about what I enjoy is still an activity which I persue. But, ultimately, it doesn't pay the bills. That simple.

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       Sufidreamerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Aya - Hope that you are keeping well
       
       I enjoy most of my work, but I don't get to choose what to write about, so your final paragraph is pretty irrelevant in my particular case - I write sales copy for clients about topics that they choose. People pay me money for this, so I hope that this means that I am successful at sales.
       
       I guess that my profession is like any other - you have to take the bad with the good. Like Ryan, I have spent entire days churning out sales copy and I find that extremely tedious, but it pays the bills. Sometimes, you have to do things that you don't necessarily enjoy if you are trying to make a living
       
       Ultimately, when I do have bad days, I remind myself of the years I spent working in corporate sales and retail hell. That certainly was something that I did not enjoy in the slightest!

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          Aya Katzposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Sufi, you're describing work for hire. But wasn't Ryan talking about independent work he was doing, with himself as the final arbiter as to what he should write about? Or have I misunderstood?

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             Sufidreamerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             I joined the conversation when it meandered on to sales copy in general - sales copy is sales copy, whether for Hubs or for clients. Sometimes interesting, sometimes tedious
             
             Like Ryan, I had a day of churning out sales copy, so Ryan's venting struck a chord with me.

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                Aya Katzposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I guess I have trouble distinguishing "venting" from a real complaint.

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                   Sally's Troveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   You are not alone in that, Aya. Forums are funny places. We have no physical cues (somebody scratching a head or looking off into space or slumping in a chair or having the lightbulb go off as evidenced in brightening eyes and ramrod posture). All we have are words to go by, and our own expectations of what we want to hear.
                   
                   So if we hear something that doesn't meet our expectations, in the absence of physical cues, then we are free to make our own interpretations based on only our own mindsets.
                   
                   Forums (like all cyber exchanges) can be mine fields, exploding without warning, but they can also be a mode of understanding that could happen in no other way.
                   
                   I think this exchange is a good example of the latter. Each participant is having a say about the nature of sales Hubs being boring to write, and that is all good. Some of it is venting and some of it is not just complaining but also provoking to those who have another view.
                   
                   All is good.

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    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    I am kind of on teh fence on this one, I love what I do, but so far I have written about 300 articles on laptop coolers on various websites.  I challenge anyone to do something like that and not find it tedious by the end. The truth of the matter is that I am still only half way through my project on this, and related keywords. I also have 4 domains on the topic which I need to develop, with the overall goal of pushing my major competition out of the top ten rankings.
    
    This is not enjoyable to me, the enjoment went out of it after I said the same thing for the tenth time. but it is pulling in significant ranking, traffic and sales.
    
    I enjoy my success, and I enjoy the initial research that goes in to things like this, but I would be lieing if I said that I loved writing sales speel on the same topic time and time again.

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I now have 30 pages online in total about laptop coolers, I would hazard a guess at 15,000 - 20,000 words.
       
       I challenge any of my critics on this thread to go and write 20,000 words on laptop coolers and not find it tedious and frustrating by the end.
       
       I too, like Oli, still have much more writing to do on that subject. Sales is about penetrating a market, not about enjoying spinning 500 words for the 20th time.
       
       That does not mean that I do not enjoy the process in its entirety. I am yet to see the results, only then will I tell you all whether it was worth it.
       
       There are simply about 2000 words to be said about laptop coolers. They have fans, they cool your laptop, your laptop lives longer. The end.
       
       Personally I think that people should begin to WORRY about my attitude if I came on here and started threads about how excited I feel whenever I see a laptop cooler. It is a piece of metal with a couple of fans in it, the day that I get excited about that is the day I may as well give up on leaving my house.
       
       I hope that gives everybody a little more perspective.

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       Aya Katzposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I totally understand how repetition would be boring. The question I'm asking is: is that necessary for success? Nelle seems to be able to make each sales hub unique, and that may be part of the genius behind her method!

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          ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Yet so many make money by implementing strategies which require a great deal of repitition. Go and ask Misha how he approaches backlinking. It involves lots of boring and repetative tasks, its part of the territory. It is not unusual for somebody serious about SEO to 'spin' their flagship or primary hubpage (flagship not in the formal hubpages sense) up to 100 times. If it gets their stuff to the top of Google and makes them a fortune, then good on them.

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    Jane@CMposted 12 years ago

    I'd like to break both codes but with the new laws, I don't think I can use Amazon any longer, now that I reside in CA.  Writing sales can be boring, however, I find it a very easy to hub about items I use.

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22. 80

    Aya Katzposted 12 years ago

    Ryan, I'm still hoping that writing what we enjoy could possibly pay the bills, if we have a firm grasp of the market, the material and the technical aspects of web publishing. If Nelle has found that way of life for herself, might it not be possible for others as well?
    
    Why would it pay the bills not to do our best work?

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Aya Katz, I don't want confrontation or anything, but I am not really sure what it is that you are talking about.
       
       Nelle is writing sales hubs, and enjoys it. I have been writing hundreds of sales hubs recently, and largely enjoy it.
       
       There really isn't a great deal of difference between what I am doing and what Nelle is doing. Identifying a market, writing for that market, and crossing our fingers that we get sales.
       
       I would not have written 407 hubpages in 13 months if I did not enjoy doing it.
       
       I would prefer to write about serial killers and soccer players. Since I have 100+ hubs on those very subjects, I can tell you that I do not earn much more than a couple of dollars per week for 25% of my hubpages portfolio.
       
       This has all been blown out of proportion a little. Like I said, try working 80+ hours a week without getting a little frustrated or needing to let off steam. Perhaps my initial post was slightly insensitive, but by no means justified such a witch hunt.
       
       If you want to see me lower myself to hateful rants full of vitriol and spite then just say the word, and perhaps I could justify precisely why how this thread has resulted in a gross over reaction. What crime have I commited exactly? How should I be punished? I choose firing squad if the sentence is death.

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          Aya Katzposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Ryan, sorry. I often misunderstand when people are "just blowing off steam." I have often advised divorce, quitting a job or an outright revolution, when it turned out later that people really loved their spouse, enjoyed their job and liked their current government, but were just "blowing off steam."
          
          People may get tired of too much of the same thing, when they actually like that same thing, I guess. It gets confusing to those of us who have never had a job, a spouse or a community, and therefore have never felt the need to blow off steam.

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             ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Its all good, and yes I do enjoy what I do on Hubpages. But I am the first to admit that I find it difficult to handle stress, especially right now. But it was never, ever, my intention to offend or insult anybody. I am sorry if I have done so, but I cannot help but feel that thia confrontation began after comments by a particularly individual who - yet again I must add - probably knew full well that offence was not my intention. It does fill me with sadness knowing that almost all of my threads end this way now. In fact, I can for the first time see the attraction in hiding behind a sock puppet. Sad but true. Anyway, I'm off its late, take care everybody x

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23. 59

    Bill Manningposted 12 years ago

    Ohhhhhhhh leave ryankett alone! We all need to let off steam even if we normally love what we do. Hell I'll do one better, I'm sick of writing anything at all!
    
    I go back and forth, one day doing SEO work, making new ways of getting traffic, learning new things, then writing some days.
    
    Right now I hate writing, can't stand to write anything at all today. But tomorrow I'll make more post as always. We all have times we hate what we do, even if normally we like it more than anything else we can think of to make money.
    
    Chill out and have a beer.

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    Sufidreamerposted 12 years ago

    That's a very good point, Aya - Maybe because Ryan and myself are from the same culture and use the same language, I picked up that his original post was a light-hearted vent with no malice intended.
    
    @Bill: A beer before bedtime sounds like a great idea - it has been a long, hot day.
    
    Cheers

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       ryankettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yes that probably is correct, I think that I can be particularly difficult to understand sometimes. I do use a lot of british phrases and cliches and often find that Australians and Kiwis understand me just fine, whilst North Americans do not. But its all good, night everybody.

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          Sufidreamerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Night, Ryan

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25. 72

    thisisoliposted 12 years ago

    You can either go for a lot of low level traffic, or you can try and control a niche, they are both valid techniques, and I use them both.

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26. 0

    ryankettposted 12 years ago

    Night everybody, I am glad that this thread ended in civilities and in a generally pleasant tone.
    
    With the exception of being left hanging by one particularly hurtful parting shot, its all good. Off to bed I go.
    
    Nighty night.
    
    ps. I can't remember who said it, but somebody mentioned that Sufidreamer does not get a choice about what he writes about whilst I do. The basic principles are in fact the same. Sufidreamer is presented with opportunities to write about a subject which he either accepts or refuses. The market demands, Sufi decides whether or not he wants/needs to supply. The same applies, I spend a long time finding gaps in the search engines for particular topic areas and subsequently decide whether or not to try and fill them. I sometimes find topics which I am delighted to write about, in the knowledge that they will also win me traffic, but in reality it is hard enough finding a title which hasn't been written for 2000 times already. So to find the money, you still have to find the content which the market is demanding and the writers are not supplying.

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       thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I don't believe you just called me a gap!

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    lakeerieartistsposted 12 years ago

    Ha, I went out for dinner here in Cleveland for my wedding anniversary, and now I am back and see that this thread has exploded. 
    
    I am not truly offended Ryan, but I do think that is why we all need to be careful of how we say things in print.  No one else can see you laughing.  However, in defense, if you can rant in your thread about how you feel about writing sales copy, I can rant about hearing you rant.  LOL. 

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       Kidgasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       PS.  Happy anniversary (even if it is off-topic).  LOL.

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28. 65

    Kidgasposted 12 years ago

    Very interesting thread.  I admire both Ryan and Nelle very much and am even writing a couple of Hubs (yet to be published) on the characteristics that I perceive that make them both successful in their respective niches.
    
    Ryan is entitled to blow off some steam.  I certainly understand what it is to work a full time job and try to write part time on the side.  I am fortunate in that the work I do pays the bills and I enjoy it very much.  So, I don't have to be writing for income.  Instead I view it as a no-cost hobby.  However, my competitive nature forces me to want to make some money at the same time.
    
    But, I do have the luxury of being able to go out and golf 18 holes to relax like I did tonight and "blow off my steam" in that fashion.
    
    Anyway, I do admire both you and Nelle.  Sorry that there is some friction now between you.  Hope that you get a good night's sleep and approach the new week refreshed and rejuvenated.

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    WryLiltposted 12 years ago

    You're working three times as hard as me!
    
    I hit 100 hubs with only one or two attempts at sales hubs, so I decided that I needed to have a go at them. I'm working on finishing my 30dc of sales hubs only .
    
    I will say they do get a little bit boring, especially doing them nonstop. It's more fun chopping and changing!
    
    However once I'm done I'll have lots more hubs to link together...

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