How HubPages Can Drastically Increase Targeted Writer Performance

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  1. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    I've been here for just over 7 months. It's a truly great site and a wonderful community of people.

    What' I've found deeply frustrating and what I've noticed is a source of deep frustration for other writers, is the lack effective and motivating performance feedback. And by definition, this doesn't need to be monetary.

    As a behavioral consultant with over a decade of clinical experience, I can tell you that the key to drastically increasing explosive and sustained (literally) levels of motivation, learning and writing in the vast majority of Hubbers would be to fully harness the power of positive reinforcement.

    This means clearly defining (operationalizing) those writer behaviors that you want to increase and then developing a system that provides real-time contingent positive reinforcement, for that "strategically right kind" of behavior. This is actually what Hubbers are asking for in thousands of posts that I've read over the months.

    Applied Behavior Analysis and more specifically, the targeted and efficient application of Positive reinforcement, is the state of the art in performance management. This is because by definition, positive reinforcement can't fail to shape and maintain optimal levels of targeted behavior.

    You could help new writers shape their own optimal, marketable writing behaviors with monitization as a qualified developmental milestone.

    What I'm suggesting here is that you develop a virtual token economy. The performance feedback that you have in place right now is redundant (sorry to say).

    As just one example, for you guys to really harness the power of positive reinforcement, you have to deliver that positive reinforcement immediately (with in 2 seconds max) in exchange for people's often incredible writing efforts.

    Most writers aren't generating any meaningful income. But with a virtual Hub-Conomy, you could deliver Hub-Points and Praise immediately for each clearly defined high value Hub-Behavior.   

    You could resolve the revenue/seo based current performance framework with the the needed behavioral performance reinforcement system by simply running them side by side, and gradually fading out the old one.

    Operationalizing Hubber-behavioral targets is a question of defining specific behaviors based on business strategy. Delayed reinforcement (any feedback that comes more than 2 seconds after the desired behavior) is to costly, from a business perspective.

    There vast lost opportunity for writers who don't get the chance to really develop their creative, freelancing and SEO skills. I've learned a vast amount here on HubPages in these areas. But I could have completed that learning curve in 3 weeks with right developmental structure.     

    An example of the kind of virtual token economy I'm talking about can be seen on sights like YourTango and increasingly, many others. But we could do a much better job than they are with some basic applied behavioral science!

    I've got a lot of specific suggestions for how to make this work. Let me know If you'd like to partner on the development of a high performance virtual Hub-Conomy.

    Thanks for reading,
    - Duddy.

    1. SimeyC profile image88
      SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting ideas - the problem is that while some people will love the idea, there will be a lot of people against the idea!

      As an example - personally I don't really care what Hubpages thinks of me or the quality of my writing especially if it's an artificial 'score' or series of 'development' statistics - what i want is real feedback! If a human comes and says  'great, this really helped me' or 'This was a total waste of time' - I've learnt far more than any generic system could tell me.

      Now if you can get a system that will analyze my writing and tell me whether it'll be useful to the reader, then I'm in - sadly Google are trying that and not doing a good job of it either!

    2. profile image0
      EmpressFelicityposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The only virtual tokens I want are the ones that appear in my PayPal and bank accounts lol

      HP gives plenty of virtual backpats, erm *cough* sorry - reinforcers - to people already, in the form of accolades. For me personally, yet more accolades and points would be irritating rather than motivating.

      PS: A huge "like" to WriteAngled about the cynical manipulation bit. I can't stand all that HR/management consultancy speak. It does my bleedin' 'ead in. I have tried to arrange my life so that I can avoid that kind of stuff as much as possible, and I don't want it following me around (I could rant on about it for hours, but I'll spare everyone).

  2. psycheskinner profile image81
    psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

    As a behavioral psychologist, I can't say I agree. If the writer wants to be seen, they are given traffic and view length data. If they want money they are given earnings data. If the writer wants Hubpages to "like" them they have the hubscore.

    Anything else just gets between the writer and a direct report of their achievement, thus it weakens the contingency rather than strengthening it and will probably have a negative effect on their performance.

    1. ThunderKeys profile image64
      ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Psycheskinner! That's quite a nomme-des-plumb you have!

      Are you viewing my suggestions from a behavior analytic perspective? If so, what are the top 3 optimal target Hubber behaviors for a theoretical Virtual Hub-Conomy?

      What specific currently functioning contingency(ies) are you describing here, - (an) already delayed one(s)?

      How can effectively positively reinforcing optimal target Hubber Behaviors lead to a reduction in those behaviors? Is that what you mean by "negative effect?"

  3. melbel profile image94
    melbelposted 11 years ago

    I don't know if this is related, but I know Squidoo gives writers some sort of mystery prize if they write x amount of "good" articles. I guess their mods go over your content and pick which ones are good and which aren't.

    There are brackets like:
    25 good articles gets x prize (like stickers or something)
    100 good articles gets y prize (a tshirt or something)
    500 good articles get z prize (i have no idea what it is, it's supposed to be a mystery)

    This idea alone is REALLY appealing to me. However, I'm not a huge fan of their revenue scheme, so I focus my most of my writing efforts over here.

    If HubPages were to implement something like this, I would be ALL OVER IT. I am a sucker for prizes, especially those that have to do with goal setting such as "write x amount of hubs." Even if it were something lame like just a book of stickers. I don't know. I'm a weirdo. And I like getting things in the mail.

    1. SimeyC profile image88
      SimeyCposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Perhaps a t-shirt for Hub of the Day? I guess having some incentive to produce quality hubs will help - just not sure about generic statistics...

  4. melbel profile image94
    melbelposted 11 years ago

    I know that_other_site has this sort of point-based system. The points are kind of worthless... and you level. At first this was really cool and unique to me, but it got really old really quickly. For example, every time you up-rate someone's article, you get points. Because of this, everyone's article gets massively uprated and nobody bothers to read them before rating them.
    "10 Amazing Homemade Cat Toys" - Uprated.
    "How to Rip Off Your Neighbor and Lose 50 Friends" - Uprated.
    "6 Reasons You Should Try Meth" - Uprated.

    Not to mention, when you up-rate an article, this bar drops down and shows your +4 points you get. This takes a while to load and it's just points for uprating an article. Points that do nothing.

    It's always nice to get comments from fellow hubbers, especially staff members or the hub greeters, though.

    A virtual currency wouldn't motivate me to do anything, but it may work for others. If users were to cash in points for real things like t-shirts and whatnot, it's just one more system that HubPages would have to watch over. This is something that could potentially be abused.
    For example:
    Nice prize costs 10,000 points.
    10 points for every member you refer.
    Just rent yourself a botnet and create a ton of accounts. 10,000 points in minutes and HP would be none the wiser.

    I think that each hubber has a different motivation. For example, my HUGE issue is accountability. If I am left accountable to myself, I'll be honest, I'm not going to get ANYTHING done. However, if someone were expecting me to get something done, I would get it done lickety-split.

    If an HP staffer were to say, "Melanie, if you were to write an article on BLAH BLAH BLAH, you might do really well in the search engines. Can we count on you?" that would work fantastically for me. If a staffer were to ask a different user, that might be like p*ssing in that person's Cheerios.

    Heck, I've done a TON of kw research and have over 150 partially formed hubs (some are just a paragraph away from being published.) If HP were to go over my account and say, "WOW! This one's a great idea... you should finish this one!" that would be great. But these are my own issues I have to work out my own problems and not lean on other people and I suppose learn skills in being accountable to myself.

    Haha, this thread is probably where I've shared the most of my personality on ALL of HubPages!

  5. WriteAngled profile image76
    WriteAngledposted 11 years ago

    It's a warm fuzzy feeling when real human beings whom I like and/or respect say nice things about what I write.

    It's very satisfying when cash comes into my bank account as a result of what I write.

    These are the only things that motivate me and act as positive reinforcement.

    I do not care a whit about scores, points, titles, leader boards, being featured somewhere or other, virtual currencies, T-shirts, etc, etc, etc.

  6. melbel profile image94
    melbelposted 11 years ago

    A big one would be like write 500 good articles and your ad share goes from 60% to 70%. Now that's something that would motivate the heck outta me.

    1. Barbara Kay profile image74
      Barbara Kayposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Me too. Melbel that one is a good idea.

  7. wilderness profile image95
    wildernessposted 11 years ago

    Interesting idea, but...

    I don't care whether or not HP thinks I have a good hub - I care whether or not Google thinks so, and that seldom equates to what I or anyone else thinks is good.

    I write primarily for income through adsense, and it requires that I use SEO for that purpose.  Others write poetry and couldn't care less about income.  Which one is "best"?

    Amazon oriented sales hubs may be hugely successful, but few would agree that they are will written, informative articles.  They aren't intended to be - they are intended solely to produce income.  Same thing for eBay hubs.

    So..if you're going to hand out brownie points for good writing you will have to define what that is.  HP needs income to survive as a business - should income define a good hub?  Should a high level of emotional response define it?  How about lots of useful information, answering questions the reader is searching for?

    We all write for different purposes and that is reflected in our hubs.  My "best" hub is ugly, short and is plainly an advertisement.  It also produces the most income, so by definition it is "best".  I don't like it, but it is still "best".

    1. melbel profile image94
      melbelposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Haha, so true! I was bored to tears when I was writing ALL of my top 5 best-performing hubs.

      The hubs that do well based off of reader response and on-HubPages love are ones that don't earn me anything. These were fun to write, so they're rewarding in that way, but yeah.

  8. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    These are some incredible suggestions! By the way, I posted this because I wan't to learn as much as share.

    I'm really looking forward to Psycheskinner's clarification on contingency management and target behaviors.

    Melbel, WriteAngled great suggestions! If points for optimal behaviroal targets lead to tangible back-up reinforcers like accolades, levels or even access to strategic HubPage specific SEO mentoring chats, t-shirts etc., then they would actually become sources of effective reinforcement.

    One of the strategy issues I've witnessed from a behavioral performance management/motivational perspective is the idea of true strategic and behavioral reinforcement sources.

    Most people aren't aware of the reinforcement sources and histories that operate in their day to day lives. A  true performance management process would have to have some basic behavioral experimentation over a few months. From a behavior analytic perspective, they are also unaware of the optimal reinforcement sources that would shape and maintain optimal Hubbing.

    Same with the business strategy side of the equation for target behaviors for such a virtual performance management system. Just like it takes behavioral expertise to clarify optimal performance targets, it takes specialized business knowledge to clarify the business dimensions of those same targets.

    If a Virtual Token Economy (VTE) becomes ineffective, then I would argue it's not the VTE that you want anyway. There are simple strategies for overcoming valueless or value-draining thumbs-upmanship effects.

    1. WriteAngled profile image76
      WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Whoa! I said none of that means anything to me!!!  tongue

      1. psycheskinner profile image81
        psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Basically, you can get people to be good at things by giving them praise and stickers whenever they improve a bit.

        I am more in favor of people getting good at things out of a desire to be good at them, or to earn the money and recognition that follows.

        1. WriteAngled profile image76
          WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I don't need any explanations of the psychobabble. It is quite comprehensible, although I do not buy into its theories.

          The OP implied I was enthusiastic about the concept and was supplying further ideas. He obviously confused my response with that of someone else. In my second response, I was restating what I said initially, namely that all the rewards/points/accolades c__p means nothing to me!

          I am not a six-year old to be seduced by that stuff. I also don't see the point of being competitive.
          Furthermore, I LOATHE motivational slogans/literature/seminars/whatever. One of the many reasons I am so happy to work freelance from home is that I have nobody thrusting the stuff down my throat or banging on about team work.

          The only things that motivate me with respect to my writing are money in the bank and positive reactions from those people whose opinions matter to me.

      2. ThunderKeys profile image64
        ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks for the clarification pscyheskinner.

        Doesn't contingent positive reinforcement by definition increased a desired  target behavior or skill?

        Wouldn't positive reinforcement then, be instrumental in getting good at something out of that innate desire to be good at it?

        1. mistyhorizon2003 profile image87
          mistyhorizon2003posted 11 years agoin reply to this

          No... WriteAngled wrote this, see above.

          1. ThunderKeys profile image64
            ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry, I had a post jumping issue. I would click on one reply button and it would skip down to then next commenter's reply box. That's why I eventually posted responses as new posts. It must be a "glitch" in the system. Sorry about that.

    2. melbel profile image94
      melbelposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I wouldn't mind receiving rewards that add up to monetary value, but I'm not interested in the least bit about reinforcers like accolades or levels. Mentoring chats would be great, but really not mentoring but something more like a personalized Q & A because I DO have a few questions that I dare not ask in the forums.

      However, I didn't say that accolades or levels are helpful. In fact, I said they are counter-productive with the added note that levels on the-competitors-site actually really bog down my computer. It's actually one of the reasons I don't use that site.

      But yeah, if I got something that's really tangible like I don't know a boost in payout % or a laptop for writing 500 good hubs, then I'd be all for it. That's because $ meets one of my needs, right now a laptop meets one of my needs and if not, I could sell it.

      It really, for me, just boils down to money. Well, except for the stickerbook and tshirt, I like my HubPages tshirt. It's so soft. But again, that's a real-life warm n fuzzy, not a some Internet badge that I've earned that has no meaning outside of HubPages.

      While I disagree with a good portion of what the OP has to say and it seems that many others do to, I don't think its reason to attack the OP for his line of thinking or his large vocabulary. It's just an idea. And this actually IS what this forum is for... presenting ideas. It's disappointing to see how hubbers disagree with ideas and get so angry about it. Just disagree, present your case, and leave it be. It's as simple as that. There's no need for this mud-slinging and passive aggressiveness.

  9. Uninvited Writer profile image75
    Uninvited Writerposted 11 years ago

    It is not up to Hubpages to teach people how to write online and hold their hands while they learn SEO. Why should they offer all you are suggesting for free?

    Hubbers are not dogs who learn to do tricks for treats.

    I can see it now..."you just wrote an article...have a cookie", "you got a comment, aren't you a good little hubber now, let me scratch your ears"


    1. Hollie Thomas profile image59
      Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Personally, if I begin to salivate each time my hubberscore increases, the alarm bells might ring. lol

    2. ThunderKeys profile image64
      ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Well, you could use those alarm bells to reinforce later positive behavioral choices!  lol

      1. Hollie Thomas profile image59
        Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Such as..

    3. ThunderKeys profile image64
      ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Regarding your teaching SEO comment. I think that basic value-generating tutorials could be  automated and incredibly efficient. These could also provide a basic screening process for language or "spinning" etc. - Just a thought.

    4. paradigmsearch profile image60
      paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this
      But I like having my ears scratched...

      1. paradigmsearch profile image60
        paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Preferably by Hollie. big_smile

  10. paradigmsearch profile image60
    paradigmsearchposted 11 years ago

    I've seen lots of good ideas here. I'd guess that some of them might actually see some form of fruition somewhere down the road.

    Meanwhile, to state the obvious, this is what motivates me:

    The enjoyment I have doing this is just an added bonus.

    1. ThunderKeys profile image64
      ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Hi paradigmsearch! Thanks for sounding-in!

      Like the targeted performance management improvements I'm suggesting, it's not the money that's positively reinforcing it's what it can be exchanged for.

      In behavioral terms, money is a "back up reinforcer." Monopoly Money, would be just as reinforcing if you could buy things with it that you really want or give to charities to save lives.

  11. psycheskinner profile image81
    psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

    The best reward is a natural consequence. Write good content--make money. Any intervening reward risks being off target.  The hubscore, for example, does not correlate all that strongly with traffic or income.  A person writing to maximise hubscore would be less effective than one writing to maximise a primary goal like money.

    Also, excessive intervening reward and prevent a person from connecting with the primary reinforcer. For example, if you give a kid candy for reading classic novels it can interfere with developing an enjoyment of reading for its own sake because their mind is always on reading the book fast to get the candy.  Thus, the rewarded child might read less as an adult than an identical unrewarded child who read only what they enjoyed even if it was mainly comic books for many years.

    1. ThunderKeys profile image64
      ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Now that's a cool response, particularly the example you give of reading classical novels. Thank you.

      Neat. Back-up reinforcer as intervening variable. You must be thinking in behavior chains. That means I have to take out the jargon cannon for a moment. lol. Sorry.

      Doesn't that beg the classical shaping example, fading contrived reinforcement as natural and logical contingencies take over the reinforcement function?

      What about those state of the art, clinical, behavioral influence and performance management technologies that hands down, get the best results?

      I'm not sure that Candy for reading is the best metaphor here.  There are a whole range of tested strategies that would only emerge from the behavior analytic tool chest through "action-learning." 

      Anyway, candy's not good for us (unethical to use?). But I do love fresh, hot chocolate chip cookies.

      If William Shatner's right (and I think he is sometimes), they should be able to beam them (real cookies) directly too me in a few months. And I would gladly exchange my Hub-Points for them. But we have to come up with a functioning Hub-Conemy first.  lol

  12. psycheskinner profile image81
    psycheskinnerposted 11 years ago

    In behavioral terms it is an empty reinforcer or at best a bookmark that notifies you of progress towards real reinforcement.

    Mostly these schemes are used to get people to make more effort for less real reward.  I far prefer a direct open relationship between input (content) and outcome (money).

    I am not here for abstract "points", sparkly beads or approval. In fact it would probably put me off.

    1. ThunderKeys profile image64
      ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I don't like sparkly beads either!

      1. ThunderKeys profile image64
        ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        ...Unless I could exchange them for food, shelter and my favorite charities.

        1. Hollie Thomas profile image59
          Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Well, if you were writing here for food and shelter, the basic necessities of life, your need to earn would be urgent, and in that respect  HP would perhaps not be the most appropriate platform for the writer.

          1. psycheskinner profile image81
            psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Um, that is what I use the money I make here for at least for the most part--food, shelter, charity.  It's money, that's what I do with money.

            1. Hollie Thomas profile image59
              Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Yes, but there are some that cannot afford to wait until their hubs mature and start earning. I cannot see how, without any other source of income, an individual can start writing here and begin to cover their basic necessities immediately. HP is the long haul, IMO, income at at a later stage.

              1. psycheskinner profile image81
                psycheskinnerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                I doubt many people have Hubpages as their only source of income. But sometimes it is a very useful part of the overall income, not just 'money for jam'.

                1. Hollie Thomas profile image59
                  Hollie Thomasposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  I agree, but I was responding to the post that suggested that some might be writing for "Food, shelter and my favorite charities." I would imagine that many who write here do so for supplemental income. Immediate necessities, such as food and shelter, require a regular and consistent income.

  13. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    Uninvitedwriter, hello! Thank you for the great comment. Thought provoking and funny too.

    Unlike dogs, we humans can choose and control the reinforcement sources we are exposed to or expose each other too. The most valuable ancient wisdom teaches this as well.

    Also, you'd be surprised at the way the modern organizations around us apply the kind of behavioral science I'm talking about to influence our behavioral and choices. Have you looked at Google's behavioral advertising technology, for example?

    I do really like steaming hot, fresh-baked chocolate chip cookies, however. That would work for me in the theoretical Hub-Conomy. But I don't know how HubPages would get them to me still hot, at the second I finish writing a high quality marriage saving or leadership Hub! lol

  14. Topnewhottoys profile image60
    Topnewhottoysposted 11 years ago

    @Thunderkey - I understand your points, and the concept, even though, (to me) it appears written as if it were for an in-class performance debate.

    I just can't figure out if it was originated as a keyword source, or a look-at-how-smart-I-can-look display.

    Really... Thunderkeys....

    This is an informal forum setting, not a thesis presentation board.

    Anyway, maybe it's just me and I'm outta line. If so - sorry, but geesh! Why spend $50 worth of vocabulary on a $3 idea?


    1. seamist profile image60
      seamistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Thumbs up, Topnewhottoys; I agree. I feel like TK is acting like we're a bunch of idiots...

      1. ThunderKeys profile image64
        ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Sorry seamist. I don't want you to feel like an idiot.

        I wish I could send you a copy of "Bringing out The Best in People" by A Daniels. I think you and anyone else here would really appreciate the behavioral science stuff and then be brimming with suggestions for how we could apply it here on HubPages.

        1. seamist profile image60
          seamistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          I did not say I felt like an idiot. I said I felt like YOU are acting like we're a bunch of idiots. I'm sorry TK, but I think your ego is .....

  15. seamist profile image60
    seamistposted 11 years ago

    I don't care about having my ears scratched, stickers, or a cookie. Give me the money. Heck, most of us make little enough of that as it is.

  16. Cardisa profile image88
    Cardisaposted 11 years ago

    I like HP system, I just think it needs tweaking a bit. I like the idea of positive reinforcement. That is why most hubbers dwell on their author score. Without ego writers can't thrive. The author score is an ego booster and I think it's great but it needs to reflect the actual performance of the writers and I don't think it does.

    I think the author score should not be determined by community performance but instead by author performance. We are here to write and HP makes it clear this is not a social site, yet our scores fluctuate based on community interaction. Does not make sense as a matter of fact it sounds a bit contradictory to me.

  17. QuestionMaster profile image82
    QuestionMasterposted 11 years ago

    Hubpages is a business. And that means the number one thing they care about is their bottom dollar.

    Implementing a system that gives feedback on work would probably be overcome by spammers (for instance, the people who comment on every hub 'nice hub' without reading it.)

    Programs such as the hubnuggets, capstone and hub of the day were designed to highlight those with exceptional work. However I don't believe the site needs more than that.

    This ISN'T a site to get told you write well - in fact if most published authors came here, it's likely they'd get hardly any traffic and zero earnings. Unfortunately the internet is not about quality writing, it's about how well you use keywords and backlinks.

    If you want to be told you're a good writer, join a creative writing site. Or build up a hubber fan base like Mark Ewbie or Shadesbreath (but don't expect much or any profit.)

  18. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    Hi wilderness! Thank you for your input. That was a beautiful, simply expressed, thought provoking summary and examples. Your top performing Hub is an emotionally unexciting advertisement.

    That's an interesting strategic balancing act. What about separate streams, the more artistic stream and the more mainstream SEO for Google steam? I wonder what the real numbers and writer differences are?

    No matter what, I know that more supportive goal directed virtual structure and contingent positive reinforcement, would explosively benefit everyone involved!

    1. WriteAngled profile image76
      WriteAngledposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Earning more money would benefit me. I don't give a monkeys about any other type of "reinforcement". A number of people have made the same point to you in this thread, but you seem to be deliberately choosing to ignore it.

      1. CMHypno profile image84
        CMHypnoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Listening is obviously not part of the programme LOL!  Personally, I am not a dog, and will not jump higher just because someone dangles a few biscuits.

        I am here because I enjoy writing, I want to make some money and I enjoy the community.  End of!  Hubberscore, accolades are all very nice but show me the money!

  19. aware profile image65
    awareposted 11 years ago

    hub pages doesn't mentor .
    Diamonds are  found in the ruff.
    Good representation and promotion .
    Isn't a compensation found here.

  20. paradigmsearch profile image60
    paradigmsearchposted 11 years ago

    This is just a general comment...

    I have had the below quote on my profile page forever. My high regard of it has yet to change.

    "One of the most important lessons a person can learn in life is that other people are as real behind their eyes as you are behind yours. – Author unknown"

    1. ThunderKeys profile image64
      ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I've never really doubted that fact paradigmsearch.

      1. paradigmsearch profile image60
        paradigmsearchposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I've never thought otherwise.

        I am generally amendable to what you are trying to do.

        After all, there is no reason why we can't make money and at the same time have fun doing it. See next post. smile

  21. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    Wow, lots of feedback here! I really appreciate all of it.

    Didn't mean to remind anyone of monkeys or behind-the-eyes realness, though. I'm not sure what those have to do with virtual performance management.

    After all, this is a behaviorally based performance management thread. I started it in hopes of creatively and collaboratively exploring the development of a theoretical virtual token economy for HubPages. 

    Applied Behavior Analysis ( <snipped link> ) is like deck building or advanced pastry baking. You have to really enjoy it and know about it to make a viable content contribution. Economists, marketers, parenting experts, evidence-based psychotherapists, autism workers, and intelligence community behaviorists sure would be welcome here.

    If you're not interested or familiar with the topic of my thread, why bother too leave a negative comment? I wouldn't drop by an advanced  desert cooking thread (unless it was about chocolate chip cookies) and complain about the negative health effects of sugar. lol

    I sure hope to hear more and explicitly from people interested in and knowledgeable about this thread topic in preparation for my next Hub. After all my HubScore is starting to drop again - LOL!

    Thanks in advance,
    - Duddy.

    1. seamist profile image60
      seamistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You shouldn't make assumptions about who you may be speaking to. Just because I left a negative comment does not mean I have no experience in human services. FYI, I have 20 years of human service experience working with M/Rs, M/Is, other disabled clientele and working as management in that field. I just resent when people try to talk like they are more intellectual or knowledgeable. When you treat people like they are human and an equal, they will give you the same courtesy.

      1. ThunderKeys profile image64
        ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        I didn't mention human service only ABA.

  22. Lisa HW profile image63
    Lisa HWposted 11 years ago

    ThunderKeys, this isn't meant to be yet another "negative" response; but I find it surprising (unless, of course, you're using behavioral techniques on the people who see your thread) that you have presented the particular group of fields where these approaches are used to accomplish an aim/figure something out without pointing out the differences.  I don't see it as at all surprising that people on here would find your idea for HP objectionable.

    If you look at the fields you mentioned there are differences.  Some are using those approaches/techniques in a way to accomplish what they want in an "out toward the unknown people" way (and in a fairly impersonal way). 

    People are generally comfortable knowing, and accepting, that this stuff is used in those fields.  They don't take it personally, and they usually don't take it as something that's out-of-line (although, if used too much, it becomes very transparent and does tend to make "the average person" think less of whoever is using such approaches). 

    People also pretty much know and accept that those in the intelligence field do things that aren't particularly upfront (again, in order to accomplish their aims).  People know there's a need for what those in intelligence do, don't tend to expect forthrightness from them (by any means), and just go with it.

    Autism workers:  I won't comment on them because I understand that this group of workers are dealing with a particular set of things that are specific to Autism; and if an approach works with Autistic people I don't think anyone in his right mind would question the use of any reasonable such approaches on someone with Autism.  (We accept that dentists drill the teeth of those of who need a filling, but we also know that dentists don't go around drilling the teeth of unwitting people who are walking down the street).  I see the use of behavior techniques/approaches with Autism people as comparable to that extreme example.

    Psychotherapists:  Pretty much the same as with Autism people as far as "the general public's" being OK with this perfectly understandable option in dealing with patients.

    Here's the difference with "the general public", but also even with children (at least when they have parents who are skilled, loving, capable of establishing mutual respect, and normally bonded).

    The most effective way to have happy, well adjusted, well behaved, children who have respect for themselves, others, and the world is not to use "techniques" or "strategies" on them.  With a skilled, capable, parent who has a solid understanding of children and child development (and they aren't nearly as rare as a lot of experts seem to believe they are), the best way to accomplish all the aims is by simply relating to the child in an honest, respectful, way (while also being very open about the fact the parent is "the team leader" and the child is expected to follow the reasonable rules/guidelines of that "team leader" who establishes them).  There's no behind-the-scenes stuff going in such a healthy relationship.  The parent is just upfront about things (including how much he loves the child, but also his expectations; and he encourages the child to be upfront too, even though children don't always feel confident enough to be quite as upfront as parents are comfortable with).  The point is, there's no behind-the-scenes "operating" on the child going on.  It's just pure, upfront, relating that continues to be the foundation on which the parent and child relate, or at least feel close in spite of inevitable differences, particularly as time goes on.

    When children have this with this parents (even if things aren't always perfect, but don't turn into something beyond what's normal), they usually grow up being people who expect similar "honest relating" and respect in their adult lives.  People don't usually really mind that they know someone is "using techniques, strategies, or approaches" if that "someone" is, say, an advertising outfit or marketing firm.  Those approaches have been used on "the masses" - not on one-to-one, personal, basis between two people or between one person and, say, his employer (or writing site).  A whole lot of people hate "phony" and "pulling crap" and "using techniques and strategies" in their own personal dealing with others; and a lot of people on a site like this one want, and expect, to be treated with respect and honesty - and not with unnecessary strategies, approaches, or "games".   I think most people know that up to a point there will always be a certain amount of "strategies" being used when there are large numbers of people (as with Hubbers) involved; but I think they want the behind-the-scenes strategies kept to a necessary minimum, rather than being turned into "business as usual" or the "main" way of relating to the folks in question.

    The area of behaviorally based performance management may be an interesting one to someone who has no aversion/objection to using strategies/techniques on people as a way of accomplishing a business aim (in other words, "using what is known in an outward direction" and for someone's own aims); but there are a lot of people who don't particularly appreciate (and often easily see through) having such things used on them, with approaches coming "in an in-toward direction".

    People want the people with whom they deal on a regular basis (even if it's a business or "sort-of-business") relationship to deal with them as respected adults, and with honesty and "up-front-ness".  They may know they can't have honesty and "up-front" all the time, but I think most people expect whomever it is they're dealing with to at least aim for honesty and "no games" as the foundation on which even a business relationship exists.  Unrealistic at times?  Maybe.  But, it's human nature (at least in a whole lot of people) to respond best to being treated as a respected individual and with honesty (and no "games").

    From what I've seen on this site over the last few years, I think what people keep asking for, and hoping they can get, is straight, to-the-point, answers about what they, themselves, can do with their own Hubs in order to get more traffic and/or earn more money.  The trouble is every Hub is different.  Every Hubber is different and has different ideas and aims.  People don't know what Google "likes" best at any given time, and they often see conflicting ideas about what Hubbers ought to do to get more traffic.  People want straight answers (and sometimes there isn't an clear-cut, easy, answer to some questions).  I don't think people particularly need "games" or rewards (or whatever) for different types of behavior, because I pretty much think that if someone were to say something like, "What you, personally, could do to increase your traffic is x, y, and z" they'd do that x, y, and z.  (And if they had reason not to do x, y and z they'd know that one reason their traffic isn't up is that, and they'd stop asking what it would take to increase it).

    You may already know this (or, for all I know, maybe you don't realize it), but a whole lot of people in the world today are absolutely fed up with all the "baloney" that experts come up with in an attempt to accomplish one aim or another (particularly in business, but sometimes in personal relationships as well - and again, I'm not including psychotherapy and/or Autism workers here).  A lot of people just want to be seen as deserving of enough respect that others will deal with them in an up-front/"games"-free way; and have others say it like it is, say what's expected of them, say what they want for their business and what the aims are, etc. etc.

    Maybe the field of behaviorally based performance management is here to stay; but as you've seen from the sampling above (and most likely already know), it isn't something that is likely to ever be awfully welcomed by people who have seen the value and importance of the very human-nature-friendly thing of simply relating to others in an up-front, as-honest-as-possible, way.  The "strategy-free" way of relating to other people may seem old fashioned (even ignorant) in today's world; but believe me, there's little that is as effective when it comes to dealing with other human beings, having strong and healthy relationships, and getting things done.

    I think one of the biggest problems we have in business, education, and any number of areas these days is that people often don't know where/when to draw the line on something that has real value and use in accomplishing SOME things; and instead see something as so valuable and useful they get blinded by whatever the thing is, and start trying to apply it to everyone and everything.  hmm  The other problem is that people often don't quite have a solid enough understanding of whatever the "thing" is, and try to use it without really knowing the correct and expert-enough way to do that.  (I'm not at all suggesting that's you - just saying it's what a lot of people do with a lot of areas/things.)

    So, long as it is and for whatever it is or isn't worth, that's my candid "offerings" and opinion on the subject.  It wasn't at all intended to be negative (because I know that without studying the area in question I may well be misguided/misinformed about some things).  I don't think I'm awfully wrong about a lot of people's objections to such approaches, though; and I don't think I'm wrong about the fact that even if there may be some aims achieved through some types of approaches, the long-run cost in loss of trust, respect, good will, and any number of other things may not be worth it in a lot of instances.  hmm  I'm assuming that behavioral "stuff" may not necessarily conflict with my own way of approach people and life, but I do know that if/when things move away from honesty and "natural, healthy, relating" and more towards being "planned" or "structured", that's often when some of the most capable, strong-minded, people start seeing through some things and and not liking what they see.

    (I'm with WriteAngled on loathing slogans, speeches, attempts to motivate, seminars, etc.  I was once the junior person in a two-person department.  The other person would get "all enthusiastic" about seminars (and the like) aimed at motivating "workers".  Then she'd come back and start using what she'd learned on me.  She'd be back for about a half hour before she'd condescendingly tell me how much she appreciated whatever I did. She made it a point to stoop down to my face level (and put her hand on my upper back), of course; since she shouldn't be looking down on me at such a moment).  lol  I got so sick of it, I once said, "Don't use what you've learned there on me.  I've read the management books too."  roll  )

    (On a discussion like this, people often like to see/share all sides/aspects to the subject.  A lot of people who offer negative feedback just think they're offering one of those other sides/aspects to things.  hmm )

  23. WriteAngled profile image76
    WriteAngledposted 11 years ago

    I think LisaHW has made a  moot point.

    Nobody likes to feel they are being manipulated.

    You are openly talking about how to manipulate people who choose to write on this site.

    I am willing to bet that a significant proportion of people writing here are attempting to make a living as freelancers.

    Those who have the luxury of becoming freelancers by choice rather than out of necessity often do it because they are sick of being manipulated by the slick toads who seem to have taken over so many HR departments.

    You seem to be arguing for bringing this same cynical manipulation into Hubpages. As you can see from the responses, a good number of people would not be impressed if this were to happen.

    As a secondary point, the most successful academics/intellectuals tend to present their cases mostly using everyday language, especially when writing/speaking to an audience with a mixed background of various or no academic backgrounds. A spiel overloaded with jargon gives the impression of a student parroting terms he does not really understand.

    1. seamist profile image60
      seamistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Well-spoken, WriteAngled!

  24. LeanMan profile image80
    LeanManposted 11 years ago

    I have been having trouble with sleeping and this thread has provided some of the best material I have ever found to promote the urge to sleep!!! It's just like someone reciting a text book in monotone...

    Thank you for the motivation!

    1. ThunderKeys profile image64
      ThunderKeysposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You're welcome LeanMan. I hope you had a restful, restorative sleep! lol

  25. TerryGl profile image59
    TerryGlposted 11 years ago

    What a lot of you hubbers do not realise is that there is quite a large group of hubbers who have been alienated by the Hubpages Team. For this site to go forward the Hub Team need to drop there self condescending high almighty attitudes and give those alienated hubbers a go.

    The problem with hubpages is the elephantiasis memory that when they have been challenged in some way, they restrict accounts and place penalties on them - for life.

    It like its their game, its my ball and I'm taking it.

    Once they get past this mentality, they then might see a site return to more than its former glory.

    Easy fix. Drop all penalties and account restrictions, and simply say here's your last chance.

    If I had a site making me millions a year and paying good wages for staff, I would.

    1. seamist profile image60
      seamistposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      @ TerryGI

      Although I have not experienced any condescending attitudes from HP staff, I have read some people's complaints on the forums. In addition to this, I also feel like they have let down and failed hubbers whose accounts have dropped drastically in traffic after the subdomain switch. For them to ignore these complaints on the forums or use comments like the hub did not read well as they have with some is useless. However, like some businesses, I guess they are not going to acknowledge the problem until their profits start falling. Rather than focus on positive reinforcements to enhance the quality and quantity of hubber's work, I think they need to concentrate more on helping their writers be more successful and feel more valued.

  26. Topnewhottoys profile image60
    Topnewhottoysposted 11 years ago

    The family thanks you for coming, and now, here to deliver the eulogy is ....


  27. GmaGoldie profile image75
    GmaGoldieposted 11 years ago

    Great works of literary art have editors. I have long supported a accolade behind the scenes for helping others. Yes, the forums have the information but to be pointed in the right direction and have a mentor should offer a reward of some sort.

    If we work together for the better, look forward, we can make a difference.

    Building a mentoring network could be very profitable.

  28. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    There have been an incredible, and very thoughtful variety of responses since I was reading here yesterday. I have to take a few hours to absorb it all. I'm then going to revisit the thread and respond.

  29. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    I just read over all of the new posts here again. I love HubPages! This is great!

    Lisa HW, thank you for sharing such penetrating set of insights. It turns out that the the groups I've mentioned who practice ABA are just the tip of the ice-burg.

    You're right, there is dangerous unethical manipulation by some. If you did make a study of ABA and it's use in advertising and other major areas of our human lives, you'd probably be motivated to write a best selling book on the subject.

    Your approach to healthy parenting is wonderful too. But we can't loose sight of the best practices (which as you may have guessed) in the treatment of kids with behavioral and emotional disorders, is non other ABA!

    Here are some links that can really help parents and families who are suffering with serious parenting problems. Because they work so well they're usually free. These links may be life saving to some:

    Another neat place where ABA can applied in a non clinical context is called "Direct Instuction". Did you know it's been proven to be the best way to help kids who are falling out of the education system to achieve above average grades?

    It can also provide, in a highly ethical (and enjoyable to kids) way to help kids get 3 years worth of grades in just 1 year. For so many disadvantaged kids, time is of the essence, and a high-school diploma can literally be a life saver or stepping stone to collage.

    Some incredibly brave teachers are applying Direct Instruction  in small pockets around the country; despite the kind of response I'm getting here. The potential saving to educational systems are incredible too, but it would make many administrative and teaching jobs obsolete. And isn't education a critical success factor for our Economy?

    Another super-healthy area where ABA is applied for average folks like you and me is called "Behavioral Health." It saves millions of lives per year by helping people change "negative health behaviors" that lead to physical and psychological "diseases." I could go on and on......

    The kind of virtual performance-enhancement system (yes. I've decided to change the name)I'm proposing to further explore here is like Direct Instruction, only for the tens of thousands of Hubbers who could benefit from, that the few top Hubbers might take for granted.

    I'n not sure where the unethical or sneaky manipulation or trickery theme come in to play here. The best business models align individual and strategic needs. Finally, real ABA is ethical and transparent -

  30. Hollie Thomas profile image59
    Hollie Thomasposted 11 years ago

    Economists, marketers, parenting experts, evidence-based psychotherapists, autism workers, and intelligence community behaviorists sure would be welcome here.

    Perhaps you should have stated this in your original post. Although, you've just excluded many hubbers, including me. Don't you think think those that would have their working lives affected by your suggestions, should have a say in what happens to the community in which they work? Or is this just a thread for the intellectual elite, which by the way, you have decided to define and invite. I find this comment very condescending.

  31. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    Hi Holly Thomas.

    Well, there's 2 parts I think. Part 1 asks: what are the ideal goals or Hub Behaviors to explore teaching and learning about? Part 2 asks: what is the best online ABA strategy for getting part 2 accomplished. It's the behavioral part. Part 1 is the what, and part 2 the how. In some areas these might blend, but only with an active part 2.

    I'd love to hear more suggestions about part 1 and 2. But I think part 2 would need some basic knowledge of ABA. That's where the ABA people would be great to hear from. I'm not sure if the intelligence behaviorists would explicitly identify themselves, though.

    Do you have any suggestions?

  32. ThunderKeys profile image64
    ThunderKeysposted 11 years ago

    Just wanted to thank everyone for giving me lots of food for thought towards my new hub on Advanced Performance Management Systems!


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