Fears of more violence after worst London riots in years

1. 88

   Stacie Lposted 12 years ago

   LONDON (Reuters) - London braced on Sunday for more violence after some of the worst riots seen in the British capital for years which politicians and police blamed on criminal thugs but residents attributed to local tensions and anger over hardship.
   Rioters throwing petrol bombs rampaged overnight through an economically deprived district, setting police patrol cars, buildings and a double-decker bus on fire.
   http://news.yahoo.com/london-rioters-ba … 21704.html
   this reminds me of the civil rights riots in the 60's in the US...people are very frustrated and feel helpless.

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      John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I was reminded of the other thread about people in the US protesting about the killing of a mentally ill man by the police!
      
      We object to the killing of citizens by police in a much stronger way in the UK.
      
      There are parallels, the police in London refused to talk to the family of the man who was killed on Thursday leading to unrest and ultimately rioting.

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         DannyMaioposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         So I guess for them not speaking... destroying shit is OK?
         
         Right away you have to bring up the USA? Why is that? We are not like the UK and hope we never will be.

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            Uninvited Writerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, they are much less violent in the UK usually. Wouldn't want the US to be like that...

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               DannyMaioposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               KEEP DREAMIN!!

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                  Uninvited Writerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  ?

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                     Moderndayslaveposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     The UK seems to stick together though

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                        Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Except for the Scottish Separatists. And the Welsh ones. And....

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               Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               ...Id rather people protest than a 16yr old having easy access to guns an puttin  a cap in someones ass,necause he didnt like the way he was looked at.

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                  CMHypnoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Unfortunately people are being shot in this protest
                  
                  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … oydon.html

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                     Eaglekiwiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     That is unfortunate,but in light of the frustration and pain ,expected.

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         2. 61

            John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well Danny, did you not see any comparison?
            Police in US murder man and police in the UK murder man?
            Police in the US refuse to talk, people get uppity.
            Police in the UK refuse to talk, people riot.

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               DannyMaioposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               The people here did nothing like what was done in the UK.

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                  calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Thats only the start of it Danny, its gonna get a lot worse. The police have made a lot of mistakes lately that have sparked severe distrust with them and thats just lead to more and more anger.

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                  John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  My point exactly

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                     cooldadposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Well, in the U.S. we usually only riot when people don't agree with a verdict or one of our sports teams wins the "big game".  I'm no history expert, but I can't remember the last time Americans rioted for anything important.  But then again, I don't consider O.J. Simpson important.

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                  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  No, not since the Rodney King thing, anyway.

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                     Evan G Rogersposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

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         3. 77

            Hugh Williamsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Holden -
            
            I'm a little amused also - why do forum subjects seem to end up blaming everything on either religion, atheism or the U.S.A.?
            
            Did the rioters decide to copy the U.S.A? Did anyone in the U.S.A. ever blame a riot on Britain?
            
            Maybe you just be thankful that you live in the UK and enjoy your freedoms. People in Syria Iran and China suffer a lot more from their repressive dictatorships than you ever will - unless you decide to move there.
            
            Or, do you already live there?

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               John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Williamson, what are you on? I never blamed anything on religion, atheism or the USA. I didn't claim that anybody had copied anybody else.
               
               All I did was take two uncannily similar events, the police killing a man, and compare the reactions to it very briefly.

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                  Hugh Williamsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  "What am I on?" What a great answer - sure sign of genius.
                  
                  You said, "I was reminded of the other thread about people in the US protesting about the killing of a mentally ill man by the police!
                  
                  We object to the killing of citizens by police in a much stronger way in the UK.
                  
                  There are parallels, the police in London refused to talk to the family of the man who was killed on Thursday leading to unrest and ultimately rioting."
                  
                  This thread wasn't about the U.S. until you started in with your usual ill-informed and bigoted drivel. My question stands - if the UK is so evil, why haven't you left?

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                     John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     True, I was reminded about events in the US, if you see no parallels then I'm sorry for you.
                     
                     And it wasn't about the USA even after I'd started in with my usual ill-informed and bigoted drivel, it was still about the UK, or is that a bit much for you to grasp?
                     
                     And who says the UK is so evil? I certainly don't!
                     Maybe time to revise who is posting ill-informed and bigoted drivel.

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      Sprinklerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      While there can be no excuse for this sort of behaviour, these kids are the descendants of a certain group that has been consistently denied inclusion into every aspect of main stream society. If they have nothing and can see no future prospect of achieving anything, a nothing to lose mentally is what they are following. Labelling this as mindless criminality is a too simplistic statement.

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   wildernessposted 12 years ago

   The rationality of people, particularly people in a mob, never ceases to amaze me.
   
   We feel helpless and want the government to help us so we will burn down govt. and private citizens property.  This will surely provide more funding and help that we so desperately need.
   
   Makes perfect sense.

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   Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

   Yes, when I started a forum topic about the London riots last night, it was after I had read the other post concerning what has happened in America, because the similarity was obvious.

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   calpol25posted 12 years ago

   I believe it will get worse before it gets better here in the UK, as the government keeps making a mess of things and the people riot, then the police step in and more riots. Now this in London, and where I am there will be trouble soon, As Carlisle is a very quiet and small city and about 30 yrs behind the times, and now with the gay community divided over a gay pride and the straight community threatening violence were just bracing ourselves.....

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      Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I can't help thinking that 30 years behind the time would be a good thing.  I remember in the '70s, that Britain was a very tolerant and liberal society.  Things, seem to be becoming more extreme though now.  Whether politics, religion, atheism, magical/New Age beliefs, or whatever, people seem to me to be moving further apart.  Maybe this is as a reaction to the recession, where people scapegoat others, or turn to extraordinary beliefs in an attempt to make sense of the world they find themselves in.  Concerning the perception of gay people in society, 30 - 40 years ago, when gay people were seen, it was as a camp comic character on TV, who people laughed with and warmed to.  There wasn't though the anger which seems to be developing today towards gay people amongst some sections of society.

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      DannyMaioposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      But John from the UK, says the UK is much better than the US. Maybe you could shed some more light for us. Thanks

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         calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         My area of the Uk was voted the most racist and unfriendly part of England, because of the widespread racism and bigotry. I come from Cumbria which is noted for being predominantly white, heterosexual and sparsely populated because its mainly farming and agriculture based. Most of the people here do not like any one who does not fit in that bracket and it is common knowledge in and around Britain that people from cumbria are considered anti everything,  though attitudes are changing and people are getting to be a little more tolerant its still not the best place to live, we have a lot of gay suicides, and hate crimes committed against LGBT community, Disabled community, asian community and various others because we do not fit in to the bracket. We are considered to be minorities as few people from these groups stay in my county and usually move further south where it is a little better, making our numbers grow smaller and smaller.

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         John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Danny, you're fantasising again.
         Where, exactly,did I say that?
         
         Different yes, some things better, some things worse, but never have I applied a blanket appellation.

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            Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks John, I read your posts and couldn't find that comment either. I don't need new glasses after all.

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               John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Hollie, you'll find two distinct versions of what I say on here, one is what I actually said, t'other is what Danny would have liked me to say

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                  Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  

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   calpol25posted 12 years ago

   I agree there sherlock, we were embraced at one time but now like you say with the recession and people needing to blame someone they will focus it at the minority groups..
   Gay people seem to always get blamed for something they may or may not have done, I believe its because this political correctness has gone out of control in our country and people are afraid of change and need some one to blame.....
   I wish we could all just get along in the UK but even Mr Cameron has managed to upset that with his distasteful speech on the failures of multiculturalism in our society, and his so called attempt to scrap the equality act against LGBT. That nearly caused a riot earlier this year, What are we to do?

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      Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I don't know anything about an Equality Act or Cameron, it must have passed me by.  I will have to google it to learn about it.

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         calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         There was a huge row over it check the lesbian and gay foundation website i remember signing a protest with thousands of others in disagreement of that.....

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      Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It's is really quite worrying, striking similarities to the 80s.

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         John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Except we were much more laid back in the 80s and took an awful lot more before it kicked off.
         But yes, same sort of ground rules laid out by a dictatorial leader
         against the same oppressed and undervalued section of society.

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            Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That's true, people did take a lot more back then. The rioters are obviously young people. I think we have to ask about the perceptions young people have regarding the society they live in, particularly in terms of our institutions. They have grown up seeing images of war, illegal wars at that, where other counties have been looted by the elite. Corruption in politics, at the head of the met, the press. This is not a good example that has been set for the youth. And now, they can't even get any financial help, in terms of EMA, to further their education.

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               John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I think it's a lot more basic than that.
               I was in my late teens, early 20s at the end of the 70s and early 80s. In the 70s I had no trouble finding work. I could pack a job in on a Friday and find good work the following Monday.
               That all changed and in the early 80s work was impossible to find. That in itself wasn't so bad, what was bad was the government telling me that I had no work because I was lazy and really should have my benefits cut to persuade me to find work that didn't exist"!
               
               It was a time when we saw the demonising of the young and that hasn't changed. Pick up any newspaper today and it will be full of the terrible things young people have done and how the penalties for being young are not harsh enough.

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                  Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  That's quite true. Certain elements of the press have created a sneaky diversion. I left school in the early eighties and went on a YTS. Sheer exploitation.I worked in a hairdressers, we had to work the hours they dictated, which sometimes was in excess of 50. Didn't get a proper lunch break and when we did it was no more than 15 minutes. At the end of the scheme there wasn't even a job or a qualification to be obtained. They merely recruited another YTS.

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                     Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Here's a cartoon that says it quite eloquently.http://yfrog.com/khzvgvmj

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6. 77

   Hugh Williamsonposted 12 years ago

   "True, I was reminded about events in the US, if you see no parallels then I'm sorry for you."
   
   
   Fair enough. The Tottenham riot wasn't the first to happen there, as you know. Maybe you should draw another parallel with the U.S.
   
   Why not work to organize the Tottenham community to give it more power using civil disobedience instead of violence? That would do more good than flaming the forums, wouldn't it.
   
   Of course it's more difficult than just sitting by and criticizing but if MLK didn't make the effort, we'd still be mired in riots here.

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      John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      How is a simple observation "flaming the forums"?
      
      How is observing the difference between the UK and the US "just sitting by and criticising"?

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         Hugh Williamsonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         "...if you see no parallels then I'm sorry for you."

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            John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I hate to point this out, but you started by flaming me.

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7. 81

   CMHypnoposted 12 years ago

   Looks like the Notting Hill Carnival is under threat now
   
   http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … rnage.html
   
   The people I feel sorry for are the owners of shops and businesses who are having their livelihoods destroyed.
   
   I am all for peaceful protest here in the UK, and I can understand that people are frustrated with the police, but there is never any excuse for looting, violence and the destruction of property.
   
   And as for taking a picture of yourself with your loot and then posting it on Twitter? Why three tubs of Body Shop body butter???

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      EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly. No matter what the police might have done to provoke matters, how on earth is it justified to loot or torch someone's shop (and with it, a block of flats above the shop, thus making several families homeless)?

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         CMHypnoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         It's also hard for the people who genuinely just wanted a peaceful protest because they wanted answers from the police, but these events always seem to be hijacked by the looters and violent thugs. I doubt that few of those running around London today smashing windows, helping themselves to plasma TVs and setting fire to things actually care about what happened, indeed how many of them do you reckon even know what the name of the man who was shot?

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8. 86

   IzzyMposted 12 years ago

   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

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   Mark Ewbieposted 12 years ago

   It's not justified of course.  No matter whether the police executed an unarmed man (if they did), or the stop and search laws, the unemployment, the grinding poverty and the latest austerity cutbacks - it's definitely not justified.
   
   They 'found' a gun in the taxi he was being driven in. I bet they did.
   
   There's a whole bunch of anger out there and a load of criminal gangs too.
   
   IF I were to go rioting then my reason would be the way the police have used kettling to prevent lawful demonstration.  How they arrested and strip searched and detained for 24 hours without access to her medication - a 15 year old school kid whose 'crime' was to attend one of the demos against the cutbacks.
   
   The police can only police by consent.  The government can only govern by consent.
   
   Just for a few days, and hopefully no more, some of the people have had enough. 
   
   Just a few blocks away from the London ghettos are the brand new Olympic buildings - built on the people's taxes for the rich and privileged to attend.
   
   To be honest, I'm pretty bloody annoyed too.
   
   Anyone remember our Brazilian 'terrorist' - shot in head multiple times and the stories released by the police on an hourly basis.  He had a bomb.  Then he didn't. He had a gun.  Then he didn't. They thought he had a gun.  And so on.
   
   Of course the terrorist threat is another crappy story.  Billions wasted killing civilians in lands we should have nothing to do with. Our freedoms reduced in order to, er, protect our freedoms.
   
   There's a limit to how much crap we should take.
   
   I'm off to throw a brick through a window.  Not really, I'm too old, too settled, too much to lose.
   
   But if I was younger?  Yep, I'd be out there.  Time for a bit of own back.

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      CMHypnoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      But Mark, most of them are not motivated by any of this stuff - they just want to do some looting and smash things up.
      
      However frustrated people are, how on earth do they think that this type of behaviour is ever going to help, and for the genuine protesters they are just destroying any sympathy that people had for their case.
      
      And when it comes to taxpayers money, who is supposed to pay to clear this mess up???

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         Mark Ewbieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         We pay.  We pay for everything.  Afghanistan, Iraq, freebies, bent council officers, bribes for arms sales.  Paying for a few windows to be repaired isn't that much in the scheme of things.
         
         One thing we should have learnt from ONE MILLION people marching against the Iraq war is that against a corrupt and past its sell by political system - peaceful protest achieves nothing.
         
         I agree that we have mainly disenfranchised youth on the streets.  I am not sure it is entirely their fault that they are disenfranchised.  Poverty, crap education, poor facilities and no jobs.  What else to do?
         
         Is it 12 billion for the ego trip that the BENT and DRUG RIDDEN corporate ass fest that is the Olympics?  I wonder how far that money could have gone in youth projects.  Given that for the last twenty years the governments have been selling off sports fields to developers it is hypocritical in the extreme.
         
         Meanwhile, preaching to the people, is that ghastly Theresa May.  A spitting image caricature, peddling the "they're all criminals" line.  First rule of these things is to ensure that the decent people, such as yourself, have the lines blurred.
         
         On Thursday, it is likely that an unarmed man was executed while handcuffed by our out of control police force.
         On Saturday, at a peaceful vigil, it is likely that a sixteen year old girl was beaten by 15 police officers using riot shields.
         Today, they stop searched a man who was carrying nothing.
         
         In a few years time the latest batch of corrupt police and politicians who are overseeing this mess will get their knighthoods and peerages.
         
         The real criminals are not a few poor kids nicking some jeans and breaking some windows.
         
         Ooops.  I went a bit radical. I need to start doing a political blog.

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            CMHypnoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Although I see your point, I think that it has gone well beyond a few kids nicking some jeans? And one wrong never makes a right?
            
            There need to be some big changes in this country to be sure, with education, investment in training and apprenticeships for young people, job creation and community initiatives in sport etc being top of the list.
            
            As Cameron etc can't even be bothered to back from holiday, it shows how much they care, but it is up to the electorate to boot out all three of our major parties as they are all useless.
            
            But I am a peaceful soul (even when I was a teenager!), and I find this level of violence very disturbing and ultimately all it will do is cause the powers that be to come down more heavily, and the cycle of hate and mistrust will only continue.

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               John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Would it be too too cynical of me to imagine that that is exactly the result they're after?
               
               Divide and rule?

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               Mark Ewbieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               CM... I agree.  I am not really a violent person, but I do get annoyed over what I see as injustice.  I hope it stops immediately of course, I don't want to see innocent shopholders, famileis, etc. terrorised.
               
               On the plus side - Cameron is cutting his holiday short.  Hooray! We're saved.
               
               Or rather, his political career may be.

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      John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      
      Some of us do Mark.
      
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI2YdHt_V7s

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         Mark Ewbieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Nice song John, bit depressing.  The police woman in charge at the time got promoted I believe.
         
         All set for a cracking Olympics.  Come to London and get shot by the police or get your car torched.

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    Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

    Now the riots have spread to my city of Birmingham.  Shops have had their windows smashed and been looted. It really is just an excuse, to have new clothes without having to pay for them. And a senior police officer has warned people to keep off the streets. There really is no excuse for this. If this continues, it will spread to the rest of the UK.  The police should bring out the water cannons.

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       calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       It will probably come up to us in the north yet, Carlisle or Newcastle upon tyne  will be next.

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    IzzyMposted 12 years ago

    The police say the violence is being incited through Twitter and that legal action is likely to follow against those who have incited such widespread rioting. I hope they throw the book at them!

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       Uninvited Writerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       It's like the rioting that took place in Vancouver a few months ago, or the G8 rioting in Toronto or Seattle a few years back. Thugs taking advantage of an event just to break stuff... It seems so many demos are taken over by people who have nothing to do with the cause.

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          EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I'm listening to the radio at the moment... they're interviewing shop owners in Ealing (suburb of west London) who have had their shops torched/ransacked. When they called the police as it was happening, the police didn't help - even though their presence was evident in the area.
          
          You can bet that if any of these shopkeepers had tried to defend themselves and their businesses, the police would have been all over them like a rash.

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             gustaw1981posted 12 years agoin reply to this

             What could the police do?

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                EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I'm starting to think water cannon and tear gas (against the looters/arsonists, not against peaceful protesters) is a pretty darn good idea.

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                   gustaw1981posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   And one week later we would be talking about police being too aggresive and that we came back fascists times?

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                      EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      Yeah, possibly. It seems like a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't at the moment.

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    Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

    The riots have now spread to Leeds, Liverpool, Bristol, Nottingham, and my own city of Birmingham, where riots continued throughout the night and morning.  I am getting increasingly angry, and am tired of people on TV making excuses for these thugs.  I have spent a lot of time unemployed at different parts of my life, and not once did it even enter my head to riot. And I never stole anything.  If I couldn't afford it, I went without. These thugs are destroying city after city, destroying private business and public buildings. The cost to the country will be in the billions, at a time when there just isn't the money to put it right.  Watching the news, London looks like the old war news of the Blitz.  That destruction was caused by the enemies of our country, which is exactly what these looters are.
    
    When it is over - if it is ever over, then the government should refuse to rebuilt the public buildings.  The people who have destroyed their own communities should be made to live in the ruins, rather than expecting tax payers money to repair what they have destroyed.  If this was in France, the water cannons and tear gas would have been brought out.  As usual though, it is not thought of as civilised to do so in Britain.  Well, I hardly think what these thugs are doing is civilised.  And everyone who is identified should be punished with the full weight of the law, without any fears of more violence as a result.  I am not a member of the police, but watching these thugs destroying my country, makes me want to go to the city centre and offer the police any help, because I am so very angry that these disgusting people are determined to return society to the dark ages. If most of the armed forces weren't abroad fighting the so-called War on Terror, they could be brought out onto the streets here to fight the real War of Terror which is threatening to destroy British civilisation.

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       gustaw1981posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       It is not civilised, yet they do all they were thought to do. On a daily basis you can walk by a man and don't even think of his problems and how does life seems to him. Then you get very surprised what can he do when gets to the edge.

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          EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I dunno, I don't think many of these a**eholes are close to any "edge" that I would recognise.
          
          OK, there might be an element of anger against the police but AFAICT it's more a case of opportunism. Put it this way, if I felt strongly enough about something to protest in the streets, robbing a jeweller's or torching someone's property would hardly be on my "to do" list.
          
          I went on the Iraq war protest march in 2003. There were over a million people with very strong feelings, but there was very little (if any) violence.
          
          @Sherlock - I don't know about refusing to rebuild - how about putting the guilty parties to work on it, with 2,000 hours of unpaid community service each?

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             gustaw1981posted 12 years agoin reply to this

             You never know what would get on your todo list in specific conditions. I am against any torching or robbing shops. This is not acceptable, still in some cases unavoidable. I mean you can not doo much against it if someone else want's to do it. All you can do - is not do it yourself when time comes.

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       John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Have you not thought that for many these are already the dark ages?

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          gustaw1981posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          You mean getting hanged for using fork out in the village? Or being drowned for reading books? Don't think so. 

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          Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Dark Ages can be a state of mind.  As someone who has very little money, sometimes not even enough for the bus journey into town, so I have to walk, I understand the desperate state some people are in.  Is this really though an excuse to return society to the Dark Ages for everyone.  Never having two brass farthings to rub together, I know what being poor is.  Yet, I have never felt the need to attack my own community, because I live in it and am proud of it.  Yes, I live on a council estate, where there is high unemployment and social deprivation, yet to destroy what there is will only make it worse.  These people are destroying the communities in which they and their families have to live.  Do they really think this will improve things?

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             gustaw1981posted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Why do you think they want to improve anything? You are a thinker, they look like just people who want, but do not want to think on how to get it/keep what they have. Pure chaos

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                Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                I agree that no one wants to improve anything, but this is the excuse being made by some commentators on TV.  They fail to realise that the destroyed communities will be much worse off than they were before.  The shop owners, who would have been finding it hard to make ends meet before, will find it impossible to rebuild, because their insurance will increase dramatically.  Many of these businesses will never re-open. meaning the people they employed will now be out of a job, meaning even more local people unemployed.  The cost of rebuilding will be largely met by the tax payer, perhaps with the need to increase taxes.  And it is usually the poor who are hardest hit by tax increases.  So, whilst these communities were poor, with high unemployment, after this destruction, they will be poorer, with higher unemployment, those who are working paying higher taxes, many businesses never to re-open, and a level of mistrust between different sections of society.  All this for the sake of a few clothes stolen from shops before they were set fire to.

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             EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Actually, you've touched on something which is worth expanding on.
             
             The luvvie hand-wringers who go on about the looters being "disenfranchised" are guilty of contempt and patronage IMO, because their unspoken assumption seems to be that people from poor backgrounds can only use mindless violence (plus maybe a bit of rap music) to express themselves.

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                Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yes, you have a point - it is patronising to suggest that poor people only have the option for violence, because of lack of education or money.  Most poor people have pride, even if they don't have money.  They do all they can to make sure their children get the best education they can, and would be horrified at the thought of their children being involved in such terrorism.
                
                As far as rap music is concerned though, it is the only kind of music that is played in my area.  Out of almost every house and every car, that is all that can be heard.  So it does seem to be the only music people now are prepared to listen to.  Personally I hate it, as to my ears it sounds so aggressive and some of the words are positively disgusting.

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                   gustaw1981posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   We are talking about pretty serious social issues here. It is hard to generalize only poor people are out there. Usually the poor people have more sense of what can be lost if they do something wrong, in the end they learn to live a living with no comfort, so any comfort is good.
                   
                   These are rather young people. Being young with the superhero culture in place can be a bad mix. No life experience meets life

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                   Paragliderposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   Yes, as a society we should have been worrying less about the burqa and more about the hoodie.
                   The trouble is almost every commentator is right: the rioters are blameworthy but so is government and elements in the police.
                   The only innocent parties are the decent folk caught in the middle.
                   As an expat in the Middle East, surrounded by justified uprisings on every side, it's heartbreaking to see TV footage of the UK in flames of ignorance and stupidity.

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    maxraviposted 12 years ago

    I really seen horrible and disturbing images of london riots.people should calm there.

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    Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

    I understand exactly what it feels like to be at the edge.  I have spent quite a bit of time out of work, because of health conditions.  When I have been working, I have never been on any more than the minimum wage, so I know what poverty means.  Does this therefore give me the right to set fire to my neighbour's house, or to rush into my local supermarket and loot, taking everything I can't afford?  Having an innate sense of right and wrong though, would prevent me from ever doing such a thing.  Unfortunately a lot of young people have never been taught what is right and what is wrong.  Where were the parents of the teenagers who last night destroyed Birmingham, Leeds, Liverpool, Bristol and London?  They would seem not to care what their kids get up to. It starts with the parents.  My sense of right and wrong came from my parents.  Every time, I was given something by anyone, my parents taught me to say "thank you."  I remember being amazed when I first saw someone throw litter on the floor, because it was taught to me from an early age not to do so.  There seems to be so many excuses made for these thugs.  If society tells them that what they are doing is fine, then they will keep on doing it.  Some responsible adults should have the courage to say No! to these youths, and tell then that enough is enough.
    
    EmpressFelicity, I agree with the idea of making those who have caused the damage repair and rebuild what they have done.  The cost of paying for the materials though will need to be found from somewhere, which will probably mean more services will be cut in the community to pay for it.  This will be taking money from those who need it most.  Or for those businesses who claim on their insurance, their premiums will go up.  This has come at the worst of times, when there just isn't the money.

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    Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

    I am watching the news at the moment, which featured the owner of furniture shop.  His family has owned and worked in the shop for 150 years.  The present owner said his shop had survived two world wars, including being in the middle of the Blitz, as well as the depression of the '30s and several other recessions since, including the one today.  However, the building has been totally destroyed, and it is now the end of a family business which goes back to the middle of the 19th century.  The owner employed 15 people, who are now unemployed.

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    CMHypnoposted 12 years ago

    I think that we need to emphasise that these rioters are only a very small percentage of youngsters in the UK
    
    But I think that where we have in the UK 'disenfranchised' these young people is by creating a culture of shallow self-gratification, where there is a strong sense of entitlement without any sense of having to contribute. Somehow, we need to inject some aspirations, provide education that emphasises self responsibility and self respect, and give a strong message that all members of a society have to create something good in it, so that it can flourish.
    
    It's not all about money, as many of London's inner city areas have had millions pumped into them, but it is about expecting something from people.  The 'luvvies' are arrogant enough not to expect anything from these kids, but they can create anything they want to with their lives, if they are given enough of the right encouragement, education and discipline.

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    CMHypnoposted 12 years ago

    Parliament has now been recalled (but only for one day), so at least our idle, over paid politicians will have to drag their rear ends back from their holidays (mind you it might be better if they just stay away?).
    
    http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16046136
    
    Looks like Boris Johnson is copping a lot of flak for dragging his feet over coming back to the city he is supposed to be in charge of.

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       Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I find it amazing that MPs have had to seriously question whether to come back to Parliament, because it may spoil their holidays.  These are supposed to be the leaders of our nation, and as this thing may evolve into something more, with city after city falling to the force of violence, I think the UK has a right to expect their representatives to at least be in this country.

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          calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          They dont give a damn about the country, as long as they are getting richer and more corrupt... Snakes is what those politicians are.

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             Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Even lower than snakes, if that's at all possible.

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                calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Yeah Maggots lol

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    Hollie Thomasposted 12 years ago

    Just read that riots are anticipated in Manchester tonight. Apparently though, a group of Mancunians are planning an anti-riot conga, suggesting that no one can riot in the face of a conga!

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       John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Not the way we conga in Manchester, they can't.

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          Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Exactly

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       Sherlock221bposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I'm no at all surprised.  The conga has probably been organised by Ken Barlow, as he seems a very sensible fellow.

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          calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Dierdre will provide the tea and biscuits, and a quick ciggy for afters x

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             Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             And Tracy will no doubt take part in the rioting and looting.

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                calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                That Tracy Barlow gets every where dont she, if its not looting she is doing, its doing her boyfriends head in...

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          Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Indeed he does. Anyway it's official now that the Libyan government have officially recognised the rioters as the new British Government.

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             Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             It says on twitter that riot police have moved into salford preceinct after reports of looting.

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                Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Sorry, no reports of looting, just riot police.

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    Will Apseposted 12 years ago

    I remember the Brixton riots. I was heading off to watch a film at the Ritzy on my bike when I started noticing a lot of police vans parked discretely down side streets.
    
    Then I passed small gangs of kids throwing stuff. Being a stoic I pressed on, got to the cinema and watched the film.
    
    By the time I came out a riot was in full swing. The police were defending the town hall across the street. The kids were everywhere else.
    
    I had to keep saying 'Excuse me, please.' 'Coming through.'
    
    It's easy to denounce mindless violence but the result of those riots was a big chunk of Government money pouring into impoverished Brixton and it has never looked back.
    
    The makeover persuaded new business to move into the area. The middle classes soon arrived- once it stopped looking like hell. Everyone got a lot more prosperous and a lot less miserable.
    
    Those riots revived struggling Brixton.

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    TMMasonposted 12 years ago

    Welcome to the disintergration and collapse of the modern western welfare nations, and their Keynesian economic ideologies.
    
    Just figured I should point that lil fact out.
    
    It is actually quite interesting to see the fore-shadowing of the future of the these United States Of America, in the European micro-cosm in real time.

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    adrian tagliettiposted 12 years ago

    Sick of hearing about hard done by teenagers, bad policing etc.. fact is this country (UK) is way too soft on crime, time to bring back some short hard shocks and discipline.

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       calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       That I do agree with, we need better deterrents in this country

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       IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Like Maggie tried to? No thanks! There is not enough jails to hold them all and the army doesn't needs the likes of them. Bring back school discipline - the cane or the belt. Parents aren't even allowed in law to physically chastise their own children! No wonder we have a generation running riot.

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          calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I agree Izzy, a woman got arrested for smacking her child in public because the little sod of a kid took a temper tantrum as it could not get its own way... Thats what we are turning into in this country wimps....

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          Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          One of the issues though Izzy, is that people assume that these kids reside with their parents. Having worked in probation offices in deprived  areas of Manchester, including Salford and Moss side and then working in HMP Manchester, aka Strangeways, there are huge numbers of young men and women that have grown up in care and in foster care. It is not uncommon for a kid in care to have had in excess of 60 foster homes by the age of about 15. Absolutely no consistency in parenting. They feel that society does not care about them, so they don't care about themselves.

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       Mark Ewbieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yes the UK is way too soft on crime.  Here is a short list of people who should be immediately dealt with.
       
       Tony Blair - illegal war.
       Bankers - breaking the country.
       Politicians - fiddling expenses.
       Police - for corruption, selling news stories, doing favours, accepting bribes.
       Media - hacking, bribing police.
       
       If at any point you see someone with any sort of moral standard preaching about locking up the feral kids please feel free to post their name.  I don't believe that the UK has one single decent person in power - in the government, the police, the councils - anywhere.
       
       Let's not try to cure it from the bottom up. From the top down would be better.  If only it were possible.
       
       Did Cameron use his "hug a hoodie" expression today?  Nah.  Did he go anywhere near the public?  No.
       
       Boris booed, Clegg booed. The public is speaking.  They are not all blaming the kids.

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          calpol25posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I certainly agree Mark, I would like to see that would be like madam de farge with my knitting as they are dealt with....

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          CMHypnoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          All the above may have some merit Mark, but it does not give anyone the right to burn out people's homes and businesses, go on looting sprees, and offer violence to all and sundry. What had those people who had to flee the bus in terror ever done to them? What had that woman who had to jump out of her burning flat ever done to them? And the sickest one of all was the group who pretended to help a wounded lad, but really they were stealing from his backpack?
          
          At the end of the day there is such a thing as personal responsibility, and each one of these kids has at some stage got to learn it. If they really want to change this country instead of destroy it, then they need to come up with a peaceful and democratic way to do it.
          
          If you want lessons from history to terrify you over what follows anarchy and revolution, just think Napoleon, Stalin and Hitler

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             Mark Ewbieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Of course it is terrible.  These kids don't know any better, and our corrupt and useless police force (they're better at beating up people in wheelchairs) can't cope.
             
             What is worse, in my opinion, is that our civilised government, with the aid of the Americans, have killed over 1500 civilians in Afghanistan this year alone.
             
             Perspective on crime.  It's wrong to rob a shop.  It's OK to shoot someone.
             
             I'd be more happy if the government and the police were properly accountable for their actions.

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                CMHypnoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                Well these 'angels' have just trashed a car opposite our house and apparently they are destroying the kebab shop down the road.
                
                I think that its patronising to say that these young people don't know any better or what they are doing. Of course they know that setting fires, beating people up and looting is wrong. Its time that we showed these kids the respect of expecting something from them.  We can all blame external influences and people, like politicians, but the bottom line is that we are all personally responsible for how we conduct ourselves - many of us have had less than perfect lives, but haven't thought that it gives us the right to smash up other peoples lives.
                
                Many politicians may be rotten to the core, but we are not lemmings and nobody has to follow them off the cliff into the moral vacuum.

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          Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          And don't forget the IMF. They're the biggest bunch of looters and thieves in the world.

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    Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

    I have just been to Sainsbury's, in my suburb of Birmingham to have dinner and then go shopping, with my mother.  The shopping area was full of groups of young people and many police.  Talking to the shop assistants, they have said that they have been put on high alert, as Erdington High Street had its shops looted and attacked.  So, it is now not only in Brimingham city centre, but has spread to the suburbs.  I no longer recognise my country, and am seriously considering emigration. The police have ruled out water cannons.  The French would use them, and I think everything should be used to stop these thugs which are destroying the country.  After having dinner, I suggested to my mother that we leave quickly, rather than doing the shopping we had planned.  I am so angry that thugs believe they have the right to control people's lives by their violence.  The fact that an elderly man has been attacked and his life is now in danger shows how low some in British so-called society have fallen.
    
    We need the likes of Winston Churchill in Parliament.  There's no way he would have put up with this, but Britain was something to be proud of in those days.

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       Mark Ewbieposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       But we don't have a Churchill.  Who is there?  Absolutely no one.

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          Aficionadaposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          
          
          My vote goes to Sherlock221b, CMHypno, and EmpressFelicity.  I think they should form a committee of three to guide the UK through this.

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             Paradise7posted 12 years agoin reply to this

             There ya go.  U have it.

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    Home Girlposted 12 years ago

    May be there is such a thing as too much of free time on your hands, or too much freedom... Riots in the past meant social changes, what's going to happen now?
    Socialism failed.
    Capitalism failed.
    Dictatorship failed.
    What's next?
    Where's is Messia?
    Hey, somebody-y-y-y-y?
    I guess, it's just us.

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       CMHypnoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Well it just looks like I'll have to take over the world after all!

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    Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

    London is a lot quieter tonight, with the focus moving to Manchester.  When it has moved through every city in the UK, and every shop been emptied, I wonder if they will move onto the towns and villages, until there is no economy or society left.  Then I suppose they will complain that there is no economy and no society and say how hard-done-by they are.

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    IzzyMposted 12 years ago

    I'm just glad I moved now!
    
    I see online too that police have arrested a 16 year old in Glasgow for trying to incite a riot by posting on Facebook.
    The trouble hasn't spread there yet.

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    Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

    That is a point.  Scotland and Wales have remained peaceful, maybe because they have such small populations.

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       IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I think it might be because there are lower black populations there. Looking at the photos/TV coverage of the riots, it does seem to be mostly black youths.
       However, I am still half expecting something to kick off there because of the youth gang mentality.

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          EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Thank Gawd you've come out and said what I've been thinking
          
          Are all black youths violent? Of course not. But there does seem to be a distinct black subculture that glorifies violence and crime.
          
          
          

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27. 0

    Sherlock221bposted 12 years ago

    With the riots now spread from London to Birmingham, Liverpool, Bristol, Manchester, Wolverhampton, West Bromwich and Salford, the Prime Minister needs to get his arse into action, and call in the army.  If the army came onto the streets armed and with tanks, they could stop every city being destroyed.  Whilst Cameron tries to decide what to do, the cities are burning.  The police should be armed with guns, like they are in other countries.  Now is not a time for those in charge of the country to be timid.

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    Astra Nomikposted 12 years ago

    Cheeky Girl just wrote a long hub about the UK riots. I won't post the link here, but it is worth reading. I heard Salford was attacked earlier and Wolverhampton. The thugs create diversions with small fires or bog fires, and then wait till the police arrive to deal with it and then they slip to a neighboring area to loot in comfort. They coordinate the looting via Skype, BBM and Google on mobile phones. I don't think people will put up with this much longer. Politicians are going to feel the heat too. The Olympic Inspectors visiting on Tuesday didn't feel too happy watching our news channels. H'mmm...
    
    If they call in the army, that is an admission the police have lost control.

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    maxraviposted 12 years ago

    I just came to know people using twitter to send pics and msg to each other in London.This is spreading riots in others parts.This will really makes police job harder.

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    Paradise7posted 12 years ago

    Me, I never thought people in the UK would react so violently, to ANYTHING!

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    VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 12 years ago

    The riots seems well planned. So much violence was never seen anywhere for a single death in shooting by police. You may recall that some cowards declared there will be destruction in western Europe and USA. It may be part of it.
    
    But the reaction of the black people in a white country is worrying. If the whites react, where will you be? Some centuries ago the same English people travelled all over the world and spread their empire slowly which saw its zenith in 1947. If they decide it again and start it from Africa, the rioters will have answer for their rowdyism.
    
    Some 65 years ago, my forefathers, parents and elder brothers were citizens of the British empire. In one sense, I also treat myself a citizen of UK. India is a member of British Commonwealth. I am extremely worried about the defacing of England's landscape.

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    CMHypnoposted 12 years ago

    Trouble is they weren't all poor, displaced, unparented youths. What is baffling is the numbers of kids who have thrown away promising careers and their future education to join in the looting? One of these young women, a promising athlete, who was throwing rocks through a shop window described it as the best night of her life? Why as a society have we glamorised violence and the gang lifestyle, instead of portraying it as the dead-end degradation that it truly is?
    
    
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … ttack.html
    
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … Hoyle.html

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