Lets do this logically. A theist against atheist. Discussion Plaza.
I don't want a bunch of idiots throwing insults.
I want intelligent people discussing and debating logical points with sound reason.
Please don't clutter the thread with babble. I'd rather not start another one.
In the beginning, the universe began. In the present the universe exists. In the universe are clues and insights. This is a study of anything and everything ,intellectually, regarding the universe and it's coming into being.
A few basics:
None of this.
This won't help your point.
This will make you look ignorant.
This means you agree. Next point...
And absolutely no discriminating.
HAPPY POSTING
Because you have nothing to propose to defend your silly, primitive beliefs. And the nerve you have, trying to use science to prove that nonsense makes sense. You should be ashamed.
The only thing known to man that doesn't have a beginning is energy, which is proof of eternity.
There is not a single collective effort by man that even hints at what you are implying.
Please don't jump off into what-if never never land..
It's a rather deep and endless, not to mention useless, pit.
An admirable OP. And an admirable profile. I'm being sincere here; not sarcasm or humor. I'm not atheist or theist, but I'll check back from time to time to see how things are going.
Here's a kicker.
Why are atoms structured?
Why do atoms follow particular rules and contain specific parameters?
Where is the information stored for the atom to know what procedure to follow when reacting with other elements?
Why are reactions between elements consistent and how is one element aware of what another element is composed of and how to react?I refuse to discuss anything with you.
You already know we are on two seperate ends of the stick and have nothing in common. Actually, most people will disagree with you about nearly everything you post.
I was hoping, with the examples I provided, to prevent exactly what you're doing.
But alas it looks hopeless as you are parroting and I don't believe atheists have an answer for why things are so well structered anyhow.
So, farewell.. Unless a reasonable post be submitted, I believe the conclusion lays within my satisfaction.
Goodbye jomine.
'strewth V7 I cannot even understand the question, let alone answer it!
This topic I shall watch with interest!You are jumping onto myriads of subjects in a single post.
I cannot explain everything at once, and that is not the point here.
Accusing God isn't looking at evidence for an intelligent designer, which is what I aim to first establish.
Pick a topic, and I'll consider discussing, but I'm not running in circles.
A new thread my be within good reason as well if you truly want me to address all that, which if you start it and re-post it I'll be glad to join in and discuss things.
Looky, an admission of bottled anger.
And a simplistic denial rather than addressing reality.
Yes, we know your innevitable response, and your ignoring my requests.
You're predictable Mr European resident extraodinaire.
Can we submit a post without dropping to regurgitated material?
I'll keep my expectations low so as not to be disappointed though.
Like I said.. Predictable.
"They don't work on me..."
Yes, we see just how they have no effect on you at all.
I was hoping to connect the fact that the intellect we aquire from the world in which we live conveys that the intellect must have already been there if the world is indeed where we aquired the information for it.
I don't see how the connection is missed. [or without seeming desperate, denied]
They are still studying the things around them to gain further knowledge and claiming that there is nothing intelligent about what they are studying?
Chaos and structure are opposites.
You don't get chaos from structure. [though structure can be broken to reverse it to it's easily obtained opposite, obviously]
And you certainly don't get structure from chaos..Yes, and the universe is proven by science to be structured, not chaotic.
And your post points out exactly my direction of investigation.
"if you take" and "re-organize it"
Who says things become structured without a given directional objective?
And who says they structure themselves?
Structure is not by accident, and it takes effort and intelligent work.
Otherwise what exactly "re-organizes" the chaotic into a structured and systematic environment? And for what purpose?
Not to mention. I'm not sure I know of much that is chaotic or without structure in some form or another.
I mean, build a list if I'm wrong and I'll reconsider. [And I don't mean things involving humans screw-ups]lol..
We are back to chicken and egg DS..
The magnetic force causing the structure, is structured itself..
It always leads backwards.
Do you understand what I'm trying to aim at or? I'm not sure I'm explaining this so well.
Every attempt I see explaining how structure comes about includes input from outside the analogy.. i.e. - the magnetism was there before the magnets.
There is always a 'place' where the structure is 'transfered'...
I can see things within my mind much easier than explain them with literacy.
I guess I'll see if that means anything to you, and you tell me how I did.. lol"IF" DS? lol
You know I'm right.
I guess that means I'm horrible at explaining, or the path I'm attempting to follow just got too boring.. idk.. lol
And the chicken came first. The egg wouldn't have an incubator rendering it dead.
Btw, I do agree that chaos can be a starting point.
I just can't say things were chaotic before the universe.
My living quarters.. indeed can sometimes be chaotic, and can be organized.
So in that regard, I agree completely.
I was just adding to my previous post, randomly. lolI hesitated to answer and am still somewhat doing so, but I think I'm leaning toward yes..
Though I'm not certain how chaotic..
It seems to me almost like it is describing what all things are essentially made of in the universe [outer space that is] which is gas..
Gas is something.. which it says the earth was something "without form"...
And gas doesn't fit to form unless pressurised and the universe is FULL of gases.
Water is also gas, just in a different state. I'm glad you posted the verse, as looking at it now, some of this just hit me.
I don't know. I got a lot out of the verse being posted there, but I'm not so sure it's implying universal chaos as no laws of physics.. etc....
A state of complete entropy, yes I think so. Chaos is disorder and a cloud being h20 in vapor or gas form is at maximum disorder right?
I wonder if a body of water, such as the ocean is at maximum entropy as well?
I'll go with yes, to a degree I agree. But I believe the basic laws limit the level of chaos possible, kind of like building materials.. I THINK. This is a on-site evaluation DS.. lol
It gets complex at determining chaos when the laws of physics encompass every physical thing we study.....
Stating you don't know what happened it an excellent start. I see God as the fabricator, but none of us know exact details, theist nor atheist.
Which is exactly what I like to discuss and trace details to.
And regarding energy, you are right. Look up The Law of Conservation of Energy.
It is what I use to prove eternity exists, quite literally, and proven by science as energy couldn't possibly be eternal if there was no eternity to exist in.
I wrote a very long answer prior to this only for a splendid crash of my application, so I'll re-state my points.
At birth our bodies begin making use of resources to form a structure for a purpose. This purpose is to create and build and construct an entire solid, liquid, and gas machine systematically structured and organized to effeciently carry out more advanced tasks than any machinery we have yet to create with our powerful, yet limited, brains.
This machine has an operator. This operator forms a conscience awareness at a young age, varying depending on particular factors, that this "person" realizes they have the ability to control this machine, make use of it's abilities and functions, and that it is not a machine and thought enabled person alone, but there are millions of these other "individuals" just like they are with the same abilities but slightly different structuring and experiences [data input and interpretation].
The machine we create has an operator seperate from itself, yet we include seats and input devices to incorporate ourselves into and extend abilities through extra created eternal machinery and devices.
We have people desperately trying to get a machine to think like these individuals which we are, which is where they run into a brick wall.
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Now, I understand atheists don't believe in God, and that's fine, but I'm no different than you except I feel I have ample evidence to suffice for my own conclusion of Him existing to be me. If I could transfer what I see within my mind to you, you may be surprized at how perspective and certain data you don't have may shed light and change the angle to reveal things once hidden.
This is how my conclusion came to be what it is currently, and not just by baseless faith. I do believe in using one's given abilities and intellect.
If you feel you know enough and don't need other perspectives, that's cool too. But I don't feel anyone satisfied with their current personally obtained information needing no further learning can enlighten another person who can never get enough.
The more you know, the more there is to know.
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Now, one, I propose that we are seperate from our bodies as spirit and looking through these physical eyes as an operator. It takes some work to arrive at how this would actually work.
When we are born our bodies are built to begin operating for our personal control. If as a child we aren't fully "aware" then we don't have complete control yet.
As adults, our consciousness is fully complete, and we consider this a person with control [jail time]. We are full time operators and responsible for our choices, but we didn't ask to exist or be given a machine [body].
Everything is so intricately systematic in these machines that medical degrees take the longest for an individual to achieve.
All of these interwoven systems hold purposes, eyes-to see, ears-to hear, skin with nerves-to feel and sense, mouth and tongue-communicate and energy intake, and the organs grow a long long list.
These all have purposes, but we see things we've built designed for purpose with multiple functions incorporated into a machine.
They still have a main purpose, and that is what I believe we have as well.
I'll give you a rest on that subject and thought.
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Secondly, why do we die?
Cancer cells often times have a characteristic that makes them, unlike us, immortal and if the they had a host that was immortal and could proportionally support their growth would never die.
Death is decay, and considering we fight every aspect of decay every day and millions of dollars go into the business of it, I don't think for a second that just because we experience daily decay that it's normal. Especially when everything we do is an attempt to prevent it [especially women].
It's exactly opposite of what happens at birth, and the machine starts out with insane growth.. only to what? Change it's objective to grow and learn to dying?
It just seems silly to me to think the momentum suddenly just changes and it's normal simply because we witness the change.
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And thridly, I feel the laws of the universe are so well constructed and "followed" that it's impossible to consider it's feat as something that just 'happens' by chance. The images, not just random data, which I can evision within my mind are often breathtaking, and not so because my brain is amazing, but the things it can see and understand through imagery simply astound me.
I've began so many times to write hubs on these and many other subjects dealing with all the factors of reality, but right now I'm typing on a touchscreen and the data is LIMITLESS and it is an endless project once I begin.
Considering the materials we consider lifeless contain motion within them and consist of energy in itself says they contain life to me.
Protons with electrons flying around at hundreds of thousands of miles an hour and interacting with other atoms as if they were getting off a bus and onto another and so accurately they have particular seating orders?
This is considered 'dead'?
Well, I'm going to rest on that thought, as my leg is going to sleep and I've got a task calling my name I've yet to address.
I don't consider anyone, btw, atheist or theist within my mind.. I consider them one of me, and I want to learn what they know, and share what I know. Maybe not new information always, but how we see it.Vector7:
Much like yourself, I was typing a response and my computer strangely crashed. Starting my response over… I’m going to just reply with my thoughts in the order of your response. It’s quite lengthy, so bare with me. And by the way, I quite enjoyed your insight and everything you had to say. I think in the end, we agree on a lot more than we disagree. By the way, I like your wording of god as a “fabricator.” Moving on though to your response…
I’m glad we find some common ground on energy. You seem to definitely have a penchant for science, which I can appreciate, as some people reject it all together. But that isn’t what this is about… just my comment on it.
What you will find from me is that I won’t tell you that you’re wrong and I’m right, I will simply say “I disagree and here’s what I think.” Much like the way you feel ample evidence supports your beliefs in god, which I understand as I do have friends of various faiths, I feel there’s more of a lack of evidence that supports that. That goes for any god of any faith. That is simply put, my opinion.
The lack of evidence isn’t my only reasoning. My other reasons are what I believe to be factual and just a personal feeling. As for what I understand to be factual, that is the entire story of Jesus and the mythology surrounding him was unoriginal and based on astrology. It was used for a number of religions that predate Christianity, including the ancient Egyptian myth of Horus and Set. As for personal reasons, to me, feeling that there is no god just feels correct. I totally believe and understand that you probably feel the opposite.
I will reveal this about myself though: In August-September of last year, I faced my own mortality twice in two different ways. The first time when I was diagnosed with Stage 3b colon cancer at the age of 30 and not knowing how far it had spread, I could only assume the worst. I didn’t quite know how to feel, except that I knew I might be on the road to death. The second time came 2 days after my first surgery and my colon had perforated. I needed to be rushed back to the hospital as my enzymes were leaking into the rest of my body and slowly poisoning me. The pain was so overwhelming that I welcomed death.
Here’s my point though, at no point did I question god or suddenly feel like he was there or had anything to do with it. I felt just as atheistic as before. We came to some common ground on the idea of energy, eternity and existentialism, and I felt some existential connection with my family since the entire experience drew me closer to my sisters, parents and several of my friends.
As for your suggestion that I don’t need other perspectives – honestly, I welcome other perspectives. Sure, the likeliness of it changing my mind is slim to none, but that doesn’t mean I’m not interested in hearing other people’s philosophies about life and how we got here. I will note that I’m not a fan of bigotry, (and I hope you understand what I mean by that in relation to religion) but honestly, it doesn’t seem like you’re a bigot, it just seems like we have a different view of why and how we exist.
I enjoy being enlightened, and it’s not like I can’t learn anything from it, even if it’s just about that particular person. There might be some ideas in there I may want to adopt or explore or at the very least have questions about that will spark a stimulating conversation.
I agree with your statement, “The more you know, the more there is to know.”
If you want my opinion on the bodies & spirit idea, it’s pretty simple. I actually fancy the idea that a spirit operates the body, but I don’t think it works that way. I think our consciousness is connected to our body, and that’s it. However, I have toiled with the idea that there is something extra that is there in the past, but I just don’t think it make sense to me; on the flip side, since I’ve obviously thought about it, I understand why you believe it. Also, much like the origin of how we got here, neither of us can prove it. I think it’s interesting that there are different ideas about it, and we should keep both around as potentials and not rule them out until we hopefully find out one day.
My firm belief in why we are the way we are though, in response to “our interwoven systems” – eyes, ears, etc., is simply because it’s an evolutionary response to the planet we live on. Meaning, all live things on this planet evolved the way they did because of the environment on earth. It’s why pigment of skin originates from different climate regions on this planet. Again, keep in mind, these are my thoughts. I wouldn’t mind getting deeper on this subject, perhaps at a later time. It’s quite fascinating to me; and, I actually had a discussion about it, unrelated to this, with my friend the other day.
As for death: I don’t know exactly why we die, as in the purpose for it, other than to prevent overpopulation. But, my response as to why we die in your context is that we, like every other living thing on this planet, have a life cycle. Death isn’t the end, but my idea of death isn’t the same as yours. You likely believe in an afterlife (and my sincere apologies if I am assuming on this), and I just believe our energy helps the next cycle of life. I think our consciousness fades out when we expire. But either way, death isn’t the end. From my understanding, we both believe that the physical aspect of our bodies continues the life cycle for other life to thrive – so we do agree on that, right? It’s just what happens to the consciousness/spirit/what have you, that we probably disagree on.
Here’s where I might majorly disagree with you, or at least have quite the opposite opinion. I think that the “chance” of things occurring is simply coincidence. They just happened. It doesn’t have to be for a reason, other than that’s the chemical reaction from that particular event. And a lot of people might say something in disbelief like, “that can’t be just a coincidence,” but I offer the opposite idea – it CAN be just a coincidence. That’s the whole point of coincidence!
An example might be flipping a penny 50 times in a row. Each toss is a 50/50 chance of heads or tails. Let’s say all fifty in a row were heads – that seems fishy, but that’s the point of coincidence, it can just happen. I take that same philosophy to life and all aspects of it – but that’s just me and my personal opinion.
I hope that helps shed some light on the way I see things and my philosophies about life. I certainly enjoyed learning about yours. To be honest, while I didn’t think we would disagree on everything, I was surprised we agreed as much as we did about certain aspects.
Cheers!
Boy oh boy.
Right to throwing punches eh?
No way sir, I'm in this discussion arena with a look into reasons to, and not to, believe in an intelligent designer.
Not handing over my religion for the simpletons to play piñata with.
If you would like to engage in the discussion come up with good reasons you see not to believe in intelligent design and submit them without looking for a handout.
Or you could dispute points already posted?
Seems some are afraid to touch things that seem dangerously designed.
Wouldn't be afraid of seeing some truth now would you?
[just pickin at ya pedrog]I believe God, as an intelligent designer, exists.
I hold the complexity of the universe as my evidence, and believe personally it shows His fingerprints.
That what you mean?I may contribute a small portion to the evidences and silencing of a few, but your work and understanding [in mathmatics for certainty] by far exceeds mine in every capacity.
When I read that post, some on the universal truths that shape reality popped into my head combining with other knowledge I've been trying to place.
The images are AMAZING!
So my hard work and efforts are paying off as gifts from God through brilliant people like you helping me and stating things from a better perspective, and giving so much additional and accurate information.
THANK YOU, for all your help here, and for teaching me indirectly things I needed to finish the puzzles.
And of COURSE they didn't answer your questions..lol
They can't touch your apologetics Caleb.
Entropy..
Irreducible Complexity.
The very laws of physics.
And the mathmatical proofs of the future events fortold in the Bible, are all proofs untouchable in the debate of God existing. [And there are still others]
I can't wait to see what God gives me next for me to set up in this arena of intellect, and what my genius brothers and sisters contribute to set the record straight and bring the truth out.
Thank you so much, for setting the example.
If you're so in it for peace why all the hostility?
If everyone here is holding guns at each other, I can understand exactly why they are so pissy.
If you are that hardcore and can't take my light-heartedness or serious discussion without calling me a fool, I suggest you start a thread and ask me to kindly refrain from participating.
I would kindly oblige you.I just started a thread on that subject.
Thank you for your honest opinion.. lol
I see my 'pin-down' energy point has you quite upset with me.
I only mean my sarcasm and jokes in good fun, whether people choose to take them that way or not.
And the simpleton remark, well if they indeed throw objectiveless insults they are being simpletons by their personal choice of action, not because I'm using the term.
And if you can place me, then go on with your bad self, lol..
It won't be the first time.
I think you may have just concluded on what and who you think I am prematurely....
I'm a really nice guy, and this is my fun place.. Except sometimes when people act ugly. But most of the time, I'm pretty good at duck rolling most people's ill-attitudes off my back, and trying to make friends.
So hate me if you must, but don't keep replying with nothing but ugly, I'm a rather nice guy, and can be persuaded to apologise if one shows me something that genuinely bothers them.
And btw, I don't want to keep the cake.
Why thank you recommend1, it's pleasant to meet a civilised opposition!
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